特柳赖德与威尼斯电影节最佳影片，以及秋季最受期待的10部电影

然后你当时就说，哦，有意思。而另一些人则说，你是个白痴，闭嘴。但这部电影真的让我很受触动。显然还有很多我们没看过的电影。

And and you were like, oh, interesting. And some other people were like, you're an idiot. Shut up. But, this movie just worked really well on me. There's obviously a bunch of films we haven't seen yet.

但我认为特里尔在形式上的大胆与真诚之间的平衡非常令人兴奋。所以我期待你看这部电影。

But I think Trier's balance of formal daring and sincerity is very exciting. And so I'm looking forward to you seeing this movie.

我真的非常非常期待看它。我的意思是，还有另一部秋季电影我也非常期待，但这个就是它了。这会是一个节日般的享受。

I'm really, really excited to see it. It's like it's I mean, there's one other fall film that I'm also greatly anticipating, but, like but but this is it. This will be a holiday.

是的，它值得一看。我会谈谈一些我之前没看过的作品，因为大部分他的电影我都看过了。就像我说的，我喜欢杰·凯利。我认为它不在《爆裂鼓手》的A级梯队，但我真的很喜欢他所有的电影。

Yeah. It's it's it's worth it. I'll talk about some stuff that was there that I hadn't seen before because I saw most of those movies. Jay Kelly, liked, as I said. I I think it's not in the a tier of bomb bombback, but that's I really love all of his movies.

他也在电影节上受到了致敬。MoMA的拉金德拉·罗伊采访了他。之后，亚当·桑德勒和劳拉·邓恩上台，给了他一个类似吐槽式的致敬，讲述了他们与莫的经历以及他们有多爱他。邓恩和桑德勒非常搞笑，太棒了。而且，这些剧院非常亲密。

And he was honored as well with a with a tribute at this festival. And he was interviewed by Rajendra Roy from MoMA. And then afterwards, Adam Sandler and Laura Dern came on stage and gave him like a like a roast tribute where they talked about their experience with Moe and how much they love him. And Dern and Sandler were so funny and so great. And, you know, these theaters are very intimate.

它们很小。我看电影的那个棕榈剧院，哦，大概不到500人。所以你基本上是在看亚当·桑德勒在这个 presentation 中表演单口喜剧。但他们播放了邦巴克电影的片段集锦，和电影里的情节有些相似。是的。

They're very small. You know, the Palm Theater where I saw it is like, oh, it's like less than 500 people. So you're watching Adam Sandler basically do stand up comedy in this presentation. But they did a clip reel of Bombax films, not unlike something that happens in the film. Yeah.

看着他所有电影中最精彩的时刻串联起来，你知道，电影的一个理念是，对杰·凯利来说，拍电影就是他生活的故事。他通过他拍的电影来描绘自己人生的进程。但你和我，尤其是从青春期到成年，可以通过看诺亚·鲍姆巴赫的电影来追溯我们生活的进程。鲍姆巴赫的电影。它是

And watching the best moments from all of his movies strung together, you know, the one of the ideas of the movie is is that making movies for Jay Kelly is the story of his life. He charts the progress of his life across the movies he's made. But you and I could chart the progress of our life, especially from adolescence into adulthood, from watching Noah Bobak movies. Bobak movies. It's

非常正确。

very true.

你知道吗？而且，就像，在他讲述的故事弧线上，他基本上总是比我们领先五年。他讲述了所有这些关于你上大学、毕业之后不知道人生该做什么的岁月。还有当你三十多岁，觉得事情是否正从手中溜走的岁月。以及当你四十多岁，感叹天哪，我不再酷了的岁月。

You know? And, like, he's basically always five years ahead of us in terms of the arc of the story that he's telling. He's told all of these stories about the years after you, know, go to college and graduate and don't know what to do with your life. And the years when you're turn you're in your thirties and you're like, are things slipping away from me? And the years when you're in your forties and you're like, gosh, I'm not cool anymore.

我对此作何感想？所以能成为那种体验的一部分，并思考我多么喜欢他的作品，是令人兴奋的。我确信这可能也让我对杰·凯利稍微软化了一些。

How do I feel about that? So it was exciting to be a part of that experience and think about how much I like what he's done. And I'm sure that probably softened me up on Jay Kelly a little bit too.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

是的。有过那样的经历。其他电影。我提到了《掩盖真相》，这是劳拉·波伊特拉斯关于西摩·赫什的新纪录片，他是一位杰出的调查记者，在越南战争期间揭露了美莱村大屠杀，并继续了非凡的职业生涯。赛当时在场。

Yeah. Having had that experience. Other movies. I mentioned Cover Up, which is Laura Poitras' new documentary about Seymour Hirsch, who is the extraordinary, investigative journalist who broke the Mi Lai massacre story during the Vietnam War and has gone on to an extraordinary career. Sai was there.

他接受了以斯拉·埃德尔曼的采访，以斯拉是他从小一起长大的邻居。以斯拉·埃德尔曼和赛·赫什家就隔了两户人家，这真是个非凡的巧合。哇。所以之后他们和劳拉以及另一位电影制作人马克·奥本豪斯进行了交谈。非常酷的对话。

He was interviewed by Ezra Edelman, who was his neighbor growing up. Ezra Edelman grew up two doors down from Sy Hersh, which is an extraordinary coincidence. Wow. So they talked afterwards with Laura and Mark Obenhaus, the other filmmaker. Very cool conversation.

如果你关心新闻业以及美国政府自然发生的欺骗行为，这是一部了不起的电影。绝对是我看过的最好的作品之一。它可能刚好排在我的前五名之外。我看《Pillion》时笑了好多。我觉得你会真的很喜欢这部电影。

If you care all about journalism and and the naturally occurring deceit of the American government, Amazing movie. Definitely one of the best things I saw. It probably would be right outside my top five. I laughed so much at Pillion. I think you will really like this movie.

这是一部罐头电影。亚历山大·斯卡斯加德和哈里·梅林主演，人们可能从哈利·波特电影中认识哈里·梅林。这也许不是第一部，但可能是自《出口伊甸园》以来的第一部BDSM浪漫喜剧。你还记得《出口伊甸园》吗？

This was a canned film. Alexander Skarsgard and Harry Melling, who people may know from the Harry Potter movies. This is maybe not the first, but probably the first BDSM rom com since Exit to Eden. Do you remember Exit to Eden?

我记得。是的。

I do. Yeah.

那部电影不是很成功。这部电影非常成功，超级搞笑，非常甜蜜，也非常、非常直白。电影里有大量大量的性爱场面，但非常娱乐。而且在那里也很轰动。《如果我有腿，我就踢你》是一部非常深刻的母性肖像。

That was not a very successful film. This film was very successful, super funny, very sweet, very, very graphic. Lots and lots of sex in the movie, but very entertaining. And it was a big hit there too. If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You is a very intense portrait of motherhood.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在电影节之前看了这部电影，然后我赶紧跑回家说，艾琳，你必须看看这个预告片，但也许永远别看电影正片。

And I I saw the movie before the festival and I raced home and I said, Aileen, you have to watch this trailer, but maybe don't ever watch the movie.

好的。

Okay.

因为它是

Because it is

令人揪心。这部电影在我的期待清单上，你知道，我会以专业角度去看它，但同时也可能为此感到压力。

harrowing. This this is on my anticipated list, but, you know, and I'm I'm gonna see it professionally, but I am also possibly stressed out about it.

是的。这是玛丽·布朗斯坦的作品，她多年没有拍电影了，嫁给了罗纳德·布朗斯坦，他本人也是电影制作人，萨弗迪兄弟电影的剪辑师。这部电影讲述由萝丝·拜恩饰演的一位母亲的故事。它在戛纳首映，不对，我想是在圣丹斯首映的。

Yeah. It's Mary Bronstein who has not made a movie in many years and is married to Ronald Bronstein who is the filmmaker himself, the editor of the Safdie brothers movies. And it's a movie about a mom played by Rose Byrne. It premiered at Cannes or no. Premiered at Sundance, I think.

摄像机几乎整部电影都对着她的脸。讲的是一个母亲，她有一个年幼的女儿正遭受身体疾病的困扰，丈夫又不在城里，一切开始在她周围分崩离析。我们都有过类似经历。我从未当过母亲，但拜恩演得太棒了。

And the camera is on top of her face for, like, the entire entirety of the movie. It's about a mom who has a a young daughter who is struggling with a physical ailment and a a father, a husband who is no is out of town, and things are starting to fall apart around her. And we've all been there. We've all been there. I've never been a mom, but, Byrne's amazing.

我认为她也在我之前提到的最佳女主角讨论之列。我还看了凯莉·雷查德的《智谋》。很愉快。七十年代艺术影院风格的惊悚片，由乔什·奥康纳主演。放映时我就坐在乔什·奥康纳旁边。

She's also in that conversation, I think, for best actress that I mentioned. I also saw Kelly Reichardt's mastermind. Delightful. Seventies art house thriller with Josh O'Connor. Sat next to Josh O'Connor during the screening.

聊得很愉快。

Lovely chat.

哦，真可爱。是啊。好的。那很好。那他看完整个放映了吗？

Oh, cute. Yeah. Okay. That's nice. So Did he sit through the screening?

他看了。是的。之后还和凯莉进行了问答环节。

He did. Yeah. And then did a Q and A with Kelly afterwards.

哦，那很好。

Oh, that's nice.

而且，你知道，非常安静，非常低调，非常典型的雷查德风格。别期待 fireworks（火爆场面）。它不是——它是一部角色研究，但确实是一部好电影。我想你会喜欢的。伊桑·霍克的《蓝月》。

And, you know, very quiet, very downbeat, very classically Reichardt. Don't expect fireworks. It's not it is not it's a character study, but it's a really good film. I think you'll like it. Ethan Hawke in Blue Moon.

太爱了。太爱了。嗯。这是我今年最喜欢的表演之一。他饰演伦兹·哈特，是哈特与罗杰斯音乐组合中的一员。

Loved. Loved. Mhmm. One of my favorite performances of the year. He plays the Renz Hart, one half of the Hart and Rogers musical team.

他正处于生命尽头，在萨迪斯餐厅回顾过往的一切。霍克经历了疯狂的转变。这部作品非常舞台化，很有戏剧感，不算特别电影化，但我很喜欢。比起《新浪潮》，我更喜欢这部——这是林克莱特的另一部电影，我个人不太能共鸣，它讲述的是戈达尔电影《精疲力尽》的拍摄过程，我觉得有点太流水账了，缺乏情感弧线。电影节的惊喜是一部叫《调音师》的电影，我在推特上提过。

He's kind of at the end of his life reflecting at Sardis on everything that has come before. Wild transformation for Hawk. It's very stage like, very play, not super cinematic, but I liked it. I liked it a lot more than Nouvelle Vogue, which is the other Linklater movie, which I didn't click with as much personally, which is a story about the making of Breathless, the Goddard film, which, you know, I thought was a little too this happened, then this happened, as opposed to having, like, an emotional arc. The surprise of the festival was this movie called Tuner, which I tweeted about.

丹尼尔·罗赫，他是纪录片《纳瓦尔尼》的导演。抱歉提到推特。这是他的首部长片，由利奥·伍德尔、哈瓦娜·罗斯·卢和达斯汀·霍夫曼主演。讲述一位拥有非凡听力的钢琴调音师的故事。

Daniel Rohr, who is the documentarian the documentarian of Navalny. I'm sorry for tweeting. This is his first feature film. It stars Leo Woodall and Havana Rose, Lou, and Dustin Hoffman. It's about a piano tuner who has extraordinary hearing.

他不是听力丧失，而是听力增强，意味着他对声音极度敏感。这让他成为非常出色的钢琴调音师，同时也擅长开保险箱。所以这部电影一开始像是音乐剧情片，像是对一个热爱音乐的人的性格研究，但很快转变为惊悚片，像是盗窃惊悚片。很酷。

He has hearing addition as opposed to a hearing loss, which means he is hypersensitive to sound. So this makes him a very good piano tuner. It also makes him very good at safe cracking. So this movie that that starts out like a like a musical drama, like a like a character study of a guy who loves music, very quickly turns into a thriller, like a heist thriller. Cool.

真的很酷。我非常享受。就是很有趣，有你描述的那种《炸药屋》的感觉。我觉得这算是一部传统意义上的好电影，懂吗？

It was really cool. I I really enjoyed it. It was it was just fun, and it was that feeling that you were describing at a house of dynamite. I was like, this is just kind of a a conventional movie movie in a good way. You know?

它并非探索我们男女灵魂深处的痛苦。最后我看的一部非常真诚且感人的作品，是一部叫《爱的循环》的纪录片，讲述一个印度男人和一个瑞典女人相爱，以及印度男人前往瑞典寻找并再见这个女人的旅程。它是纪录片，但几乎全是重演的。巧妙之处在于，重演的部分基本上是真实的——雇来的演员在世界各地旅行，旅程中与所有人的相遇都以纪录片形式捕捉下来。所以男女之间的对话是演员表演的。

It was not an exploration of the deep pain inside of our souls as as men and women. And then the last thing I saw that was a very sincere and sentimental thing was a documentary called cycle of love about an Indian man and a Swedish woman who fall in love and the Indian man's journey to go and find and meet this woman again in Sweden. It's a documentary, but it's, like, entirely recreated. And the trick of it is that the recreations are basically real where the actors who are hired are traveling through the world and all the encounters that they have with people across this journey are captured on film in documentary form. So the conversations between the man and the woman are actors and they're performed.

其他一切都是真实的。非常酷的电影。非常甜蜜。极受观众喜爱，尤其是在电影节的年长观众中。

Everything else is real. Really cool movie. Really sweet. Huge crowd pleaser, especially among the older folks at the festival.

所以它是基于真实人物吗？还是

So is it based on real people? Or

是的。它基于真实人物，他们在电影中对着镜头讲述自己的生活，然后我们看到这些演员经历他们的生活。很酷。挺好的。

it's Yes. It's based on real people who speak into camera during the film, who kind of like narrate their lives, and then we see these actors go through their lives. Cool. It was cool. It was nice.

而且这正是那种你在电影节上不常有的发现，除非你像疯子一样提前看片。我错过了一堆东西。最让我遗憾错过的是《逃亡者》，那部关于保罗·麦卡特尼的纪录片，摩根·内维尔执导的

And it was it was the kind of discovery that you you don't always get at a film festival if you don't prescreen like a maniac. I missed a bunch of stuff. The number one thing I missed that I feel bad about is Man on the Run, which is the Paul McCartney documentary, the Morgan Neville

你没看到吗？

You didn't see it?

只是时间上没对上。

I it just didn't match up with my timing.

是啊。好吧。但这只是在炫耀

Yeah. Okay. But this is were just gloating about

随着时间的推移。而且就像是和杰伊·凯利相反，和你相反，不，另一个...所以在继续之前我应该提到的另一部电影是我看了《弗兰肯斯坦》。

it over time. And it was like opposite Jay Kelly and opposite you know, no, The other so the other movie I I should mention before we move on is I saw Frankenstein.

我也看了。

As did I.

而且它并不好。我觉得它不好。这是吉尔莫·德尔·托罗对这部电影的改编。你知道，我是GDT的粉丝。但我觉得这部电影有点乱。

And it wasn't good. I I didn't think it was good. And this is Guillermo del Toro's adaptation of the film. I'm a fan of GDT, as you know. And I thought this movie was like kind of a mess.

它是很晚才宣布的，你知道，是在威尼斯首映之后。在电影节上是周六晚上或周日晚上很晚的一场放映，片长两个半小时。它非常忠实于玛丽·雪莱的小说。

It was a late announced, you know, post premiere from Venice. It it was a late screening on Saturday night at or Sunday night at the festival, and it was two and a half hours long. It's very faithful to the novel, the Marichelli novel.

这对你青少年时期或什么的很重要吗？

Which is important to you as a teen or whatever?

并不是。我的意思是，我不是个超级弗兰肯斯坦迷，更偏向德古拉，如你所知。但是，你知道，它

It wasn't. I mean, I'm not a huge Frankenstein guy, more of a Dracula guy as you know. But, you know, it

哦，原来是这个。抱歉，我记错了。

Oh, that's what it is. I'm sorry. Was misremembering.

但我喜欢《弗兰肯斯坦》，我喜欢弗兰肯斯坦电影，我热爱詹姆斯·威尔执导的那些电影，这些对我来说都很重要。显然对吉尔莫·德尔·托罗来说也非常重要。是的，奥斯卡·伊萨克饰演弗兰肯斯坦博士。

But I like Frankenstein and I like Frankenstein films and I love the James Whale films and that all matters to me. It obviously matters a lot to Del Toro. Yeah. Oscar Isaac plays Doctor. Frankenstein.

雅各布·艾洛蒂饰演怪物。米娅·高斯在电影中一人分饰两角。嗯。我觉得这部电影相当浮夸。让我惊讶的是片中使用了大量CGI特效。

Jacob Elordi plays the monster. Mia Goth plays two parts in the movie. Mhmm. And I thought it was pretty turgid. I was surprised by how much CGI was in the movie.

谢谢。我确实被它的视觉效果和拍摄方式震惊到了。你知道，他们费尽心思搭建布景，制作所有实体特效，但突然出现一些CGI制作的狼群和CGI场景，拍摄手法非常奇怪。我真的、真的被它视觉上的拙劣表现震惊了。

Thank you. That was I was really taken aback by how it looked and how it was shot. And, you know, and they go to such efforts to, like, make the sets and make all of the you you know, there are a lot of physical effects, and then there are just some CGI wolves and a CGI like, it's shot very weirdly. I I was really, really taken aback by how visually poor it looks.

嗯，我的意思是，他可以说是电影界最伟大的工匠。你知道吧？他以布景和服装设计以及电影的真实质感而闻名。虽然能明显看出投入了很多心血，但就是有几个选择让我觉得视觉效果不佳。表演还算可以，我也不反对忠实于原著小说，但整部电影完全缺乏推进力。

Well, I mean, he he's arguably the the greatest craftsman working in in in film. You know? Like, he's he's renowned for his sets and costume design and the tactile nature of his movies. And it felt there was obviously a lot of effort put into it, but there were just a handful of choices that just made it look not good to me. The performances are okay, and I have no problem with being faithful to the novel, but it just it had no propulsion whatsoever.

我觉得艾洛蒂作为怪物，在他得到的角色设定下表现得相当不错。我知道你认为他的体型很合适。

I thought Alordi did pretty well with what he was given as the monster. I know you thought he did well with his physique.

呃，他只是个子非常高。

Well, he's just he's very tall.

他确实非常高。非常高。外形不错。但说实话，我不太喜欢他的怪物造型设计，包括化妆和呈现方式。看完之后让我有点失望。

He's very tall. Very tall. He looks good. I didn't you know, the creature design, I didn't love for him, the makeup and the way that they did it. But I it just it it kinda bummed me out seeing it.

是的。我显然也不喜欢这部电影。

Yeah. I I obviously didn't care for it.

是啊。我并不意外。但这种情况很少见，威尼斯电影节传出的口碑与我感受完全一致。

Yeah. I wasn't surprised. But I that was the rare case where the the vibe out of Venice was was accurate to me.

没错。

Yeah.

我快速看了另外两部重要首映，《斯普林斯汀：从无处拯救我》。嗯...我其实不太喜欢这部电影。我对它的感受和我对所有这类音乐传记片的感受差不多，多年来大家一直听我谈论这些音乐传记片。这部片自称与众不同，因为它讲述的是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀创作一张不如《天生狂野》或《生于美国》那么标志性的专辑的过程。

Two other big premieres that I saw quickly, Springsteen Deliver Me From Nowhere. Mhmm. I I didn't really like this movie very much. I it's kind of the same thing in terms of how I feel about it as how I feel about all these movies, and people have been hearing me for years talk about these music biopics. This is a music biopic that presents itself as different because it is Bruce Springsteen during the creation of a of a less iconic album than say Born to Run or Born in The USA.

它关于《内布拉斯加》这张专辑的制作过程，讲述他此前的人生经历如何影响《内布拉斯加》的创作与诞生，以及将《内布拉斯加》录制成唱片的挑战。杰瑞米·艾伦·怀特饰演布鲁斯，杰瑞米·斯特朗饰演他的长期经纪人和心腹约翰·兰道，奥德莎·杨饰演他生活中的一位女性，这个角色显然是多个女性的复合体。

And it's about Nebraska, the making of Nebraska, and how his experiences in his life up to that time informed the the the writing of and creation of Nebraska and the challenge of getting Nebraska on, you know, on tape. Jeremy Allen White plays Bruce. Jeremy Strong plays John Landau, his longtime manager and confidant. Odessa Young plays a woman who is in his life who is apparently a composite of many women.

有什么角色发展吗？

What character development?

我得说她的角色塑造不算最出彩。她在这里没做错什么，但你知道，这是斯科特·库珀的电影。我不是斯科特·库珀的忠实粉丝，观影前就有些担忧，看完电影后这些担忧基本得到了证实。

I would say she is not the strongest characters. I she didn't do anything wrong here, but, you know, it's a Scott Cooper movie. I'm not the biggest Scott Cooper fan. I had some concerns going in. They were more or less confirmed after I saw the movie.

杰瑞米·艾伦·怀特饰演布鲁斯的表现我认为堪称出色——唱歌部分把握得极其精准。有一段他在录音室演唱的片段，让我觉得如果闭上眼睛——我们经常这样评价演员——但他真的完美演绎了。我知道这是评价这类表演时会考虑的因素。但电影本身，我觉得缺乏活力和能量。

Jeremy Ellen White, I thought was like borderline remarkable as Bruce nails the singing, nails the singing. There is a sequence where he sings a song in the studio where I was like, if you close your eyes and we say this all the time about actors, but like he nailed it. And I know that that is something that you think about when you think about these performances. No. The movie itself, I just thought had like no juice, no energy.

布鲁斯与抑郁症的斗争是真实的，电影也非常真诚地展现了斯普林斯汀人生中经历的一切。我对此抱有同理心，只是觉得这不是一部好电影。我很期待和克里斯讨论这部片，因为很好奇他是否更能欣赏它。虽然我喜欢《内布拉斯加》这张专辑，但它并非我最喜欢的专辑。

Bruce's, like, struggle with with depression is real, and the movie is very sincere about everything that Springsteen has endured in his life. I have empathy for that. I just found it to be not a good movie. And I'm pretty excited to talk to Chris about it because I'm very curious if he has more time for it. Because I like Nebraska, but it's not my favorite album of all time or anything.

我知道克里斯确实很喜欢那张专辑。不过这部电影还会继续上映的，电影节能有很多人喜欢它

And I know that's a record that Chris really likes. Yeah. It's gonna be around though. There were a lot of people who liked it at

在在在电影节上。怎么

the at the at the festival. How

另一个杰瑞米表现如何？

is the other Jeremy?

他演得不错，但我觉得有点自我戏仿的意味。确实。

He he was good, you know, like in a slightly self parodic zone, I would say. Sure.

是啊。是啊。是啊。我的意思是，看起来是这样。好吧。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems that way. Okay.

这部电影被宣传为这两个男人之间的爱情故事。但我不会说它真正兑现了这个承诺。好吧。它确实兑现了约翰·兰道试图保护布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的承诺，这在某些情况下既是经理人的工作，也是朋友的工作。

The movie is being pitched as like a love story between these two men. And I wouldn't say it really fulfills that promise. Okay. It does fulfill the promise of John Landau trying to protect Bruce Springsteen, which that is a manager's job and a friend's job in some cases.

是啊。但这就像，真的不想去看一部关于经理人的电影。无意冒犯。

Yeah. But it's like, don't really wanna go see a movie about a manager. No offense.

我的意思是，它在很大程度上确实是一部关于经理人的电影。

I mean, that is it is it is in in large part a movie about a manager.

对。当然，还有一位艺术家，

Right. And an artist, of course,

一位在创作唱片的艺术家。但是，是的，有很多可聊的。我的意思是，确实有杰瑞米·斯特朗独自坐在高层办公室里思考他的客户的场景。所以，嗯，

an artist writing a record. But but, yeah, there's a lot to talk about. There's I mean, there there are scenes of Jeremy Strong alone sitting in in in a high rise office thinking about his client. So Well,

你知道，这也是一种爱。

you know It's a it's a form of love.

是的。是的。我应该找个经理人来真正爱我

It is. It is. I should get a manager and someone to really love

我。之类的。

me. Something.

是啊。我看到的另一部有点令人失望的电影是《小赌徒之歌》，它是周五晚上的重要首映片之一。

Yeah. The other movie that I saw that was bit disappointing was Ballad of a Small Player, which was one of the big Friday night premieres.

难过。是啊。是啊。是啊。

Sad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

还有科林·法瑞尔饰演澳门一位豪赌客，陷入阴谋网失去一切，又必须全部夺回的故事。从纸面上看，这完全是我的菜，由爱德华·伯格执导——他去年凭借《秘密会议》在特柳赖德电影节大获成功，后来那部电影获得最佳影片提名并大受欢迎。但这部电影就差远了。我之前的怀疑也得到了证实：剧本实在不行。不过科林·法瑞尔演得真不错。

And Colin Farrell about a high a high roller in Macau who gets caught up in a a web and loses all everything and has to get it all back. And, you know, on paper, very much a me movie directed by Edward Berger who was triumphant last year with Conclave at the Telluride Film Festival and went on to you know, that film was best picture nominated and was a hit. This movie is just way less successful. And what I suspected was also confirmed, is the script is just no good. Colin Farrell's really good.

摄影很棒。和所有伯格电影一样，画面很美。沃尔克·贝特尔曼的配乐也很出色。但不知为何，它就像五部不同类型的电影混在一起，在各种类型间跳来跳去。

Cinematography is great. It looks beautiful as all Berger films do. Great score from Volker Berdlman. But I don't know. It's like it's five different movies at once, pinging around in genres.

确实不太成功。科林·法瑞尔出席了很多电影活动，整个周末都在，看起来是个很可爱的人，玩得很开心。首映式上我就坐在他三个座位开外。感觉那场面挺难受的。

Didn't really work. Colin Farrell was at a lot of movies and was around all weekend, seemed like a lovely guy. Seemed to be having a great time. I sat three seats down from him at this premiere. Felt that was tough.

确实很难受。

It was tough.

那确实难受。

That is tough.

是啊。电影放映时现场有点安静，这实在不太理想。嗯。所以确实不太行。我觉得这些就是主要的了。

Yeah. A little it was quiet in the room during the movie, which is really not ideal. Yeah. So that wasn't great. I think those are the big ones.

我觉得我没漏掉什么。

I don't think I I don't think I missed anything.

是啊。我在想还有没有其他我看过的不太成功的作品。《弗兰肯斯坦》肯定算一个。你知道，其实还有几部，但我觉得没人需要听我对《La Gracia》或

Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything I else that I saw we that didn't really work. Frankenstein, for sure. I'm I'm you know, I mean, there are a couple, but I I don't really think anyone needs my thoughts on La Gracia or

我觉得太沉闷了。我其实挺喜欢索伦蒂诺的电影，但这部我觉得非常无聊。

I thought it was so dull. I I really like Sorrentino's movies too, I thought it was very dull.

我的意思是，你知道，我知道我经常这么说，但就像，《白宫风云》确实有一集做得很好，就是类似这样的。不过，你知道，那集四十五分钟，是艾伦·索金写的。所以，是的。你知道，我喜欢那些说唱部分，挺有趣的。我有点喜欢那些迪斯科音乐。

I mean, you know, I know I say this a lot, but, like, I the West Wing did a really good episode that was like this. But, you know, the forty five minutes and written by Aaron Sorkin. So Yeah. You know, I liked the the rap stuff was funny. It I I sort of liked the disco music.

确实是。你知道吗？我一直等着。我的意思是，这是保罗·索伦蒂诺的新电影，讲述一位总统在任期最后几天试图在离任前做出几个决定。它有一种有趣的电子嘻哈主题，就像这种非常年轻的音乐开始打动这位年长的总统，由托尼·瑟维洛饰演。

It was. You know? I kept waiting. I mean, this is the new Paolo Sorrentino movie about a president in the final days of his term trying to make a couple of decisions before he leaves office. And it has this kind of amusing techno hip hop motif where, like, this very young music is starting to strike this older president who's played by Tony Servillo.

我觉得电影几乎就像……几乎音乐是电影的隐喻，就像有很多铺垫但没有交付。没有，就像……是的。没有宣泄。没有……它没有击中。所以那是特柳赖德的赞助人放映场，你知道，就像，他们给你一个媒体导向。

And I feel like the movie is almost like almost the music is a metaphor for the movie, which is like there's a lot of buildup and no delivery. There's no, like Yeah. Catharsis. There's no there's it doesn't hit. So that was the that was the patron screening at Telluride where, you know, like, they give you a press orientation.

朱莉·亨辛格，她运营着电影节，每年都做得非常出色。她大致介绍了片单上的内容。然后排队进来的赞助人会得到一个特别抢先预览。这或多或少是电影节的开幕电影。而今年就是这部电影。

Julie Huntzinger who runs the festival does an amazing job every year. She kinda breaks down what's on the slate. And then the patrons come in who have lined up, and then they get a special sneak preview. It's more or less the first movie of the festival. And that was that this was the movie this year.

而且，你知道，赞助人放映就像掷骰子，这次的不怎么样。

And, you know, the patron screenings are crapshoot, and this one wasn't great.

它……我的意思是，它在这里开幕电影节，因为这是意大利。但是，是的。你知道吗？

It I mean, it opens the festival here because this is Italy. But Yeah. You know?

有道理。

Makes sense.

还行吧。然后我确实……我确实看了《克里姆林宫的巫师》。我……我迟到了，错过了前二十分钟。其实没关系，因为裘德·洛一个小时才出现。

It was fine. And then and I did I did see wizard of the Kremlin. I I I was late. I missed the first twenty minutes. I it didn't really matter because Jude Law doesn't show up for an hour.

所以这是奥利维亚·阿萨亚斯的电影，改编自一部法国小说

So this is the Olivia Olivia Assass movie adapted from a French novel

好的。

K.

其中裘德·洛饰演弗拉基米尔·普京，保罗·达诺饰演他的幕后操盘手，也就是所谓的克里姆林宫巫师。艾丽西亚·维坎德饰演他的情人。杰弗里·怀特也在里面。其实我刚才漏说的是他为什么会出现。

In which Jude Law plays Vladimir Putin, and Paul Dano plays like a his fixer, you know, like a the the the titular wizard of the Kremlin. Alicia Vikander plays his love interest. Jeffrey Wright is there. And that's what I missed actually is why he was there.

杰弗里·怀特。不过确实。

Jeffrey Wright. But yeah.

但我一直很高兴看到他。这部电影确实记录了从九十年代末期至今的历程，涵盖了普京的崛起以及俄罗斯的政治运作、寡头统治等等。但就像典型的萨斯风格，用生硬的哲学对话加旁白砸向你。

But but I was always happy to see him. And it has and it and really documents Amwana's from the late nineties ish until the present day. K. And and and Putin's rise to power and Russian, you know, political maneuverings and oligarchs and all this sort of stuff. But, like, with a typically SAS, like, you know, like blunt force, like philosophical dialogue at you plus narration.

没错。而且保罗·达诺用了可疑的英国口音做了大量旁白，因为这片子里的人来自世界各地，所以他们都说着不同口音的英语。

And it yeah. And like Paul Dano was doing a ton of voice over in a questionable British accent, because it's another thing where it's people from all over the world. And so they're all, you know, they're all speaking like differently accented English.

不太理想。

Not ideal.

对话方面，看到某个阶段你会进入一种状态，觉得确实有道理。你知道吧？就像所有内容逐渐串联起来，我确实能明白你在说什么。我甚至引用过这部电影里的对话来讨论另一部电影。

The the dialogue like, with his movies at some point, you know, like, you just it keeps hitting you and you get in a zone where you're like, yeah, actually, you're right. You know? Like, it does it does all add up, and I do kinda see what you're saying. Yeah. And I and I think I did even quote a conversation from this movie, like, in reference to another movie.

所以它并非毫无价值。我也觉得裘德演普京挺不错。我看得挺开心，但不会说这是部成功的电影。

So it's not without merit. I also kinda thought, like, Judah was pretty good as Putin. I had a fun time, but I wouldn't say it's a successful movie.

对我们来说算是AS的冷门期了。

Bit of a cold streak for us, AS.

是啊。

Yeah.

不，不。这不太理想。得回到卡洛斯的时代才行。好吧。

No. No. It's not ideal. Gotta go back to the Carlos days. Okay.

所以我让你整理了一份秋季最受期待电影清单。是的。我们的清单很有意思，因为我们有两部电影是重合的，然后另外三部电影是各自电影节上最好的三部电影。所以这还挺合理的。

So I asked you to put together most anticipated movies of the fall list. Yeah. And our lists are really funny because we share two movies, and then the other three movies are the three best movies at each person's festival. So that kinda makes sense.

听着。这是

Listen. It's

非常自我筛选的。我们

very self selecting We

做我们的工作。对吧？

do our jobs. Right?

当然。就像当然。

Sure. Like Sure.

我刚接到一个任务。注意听。

I was getting an assignment. Pay attention.

好的。你的我们

Okay. What's your We

做我的工作。

do my job.

你的第五名是什么？我们可以快点过一下这个。

What's your number five? We can just go do this do this quickly.

我的第五名是《如果我有腿，我就踢你》。那部罗斯伯恩妈妈的电影，我有点紧张，但你知道，我得挑战自己。

My five is if I had legs, I'd kick you. The the Rosebern mom movie, which I'm nervous about, but, you know, I gotta challenge myself.

这确实非常受萨夫迪风格影响。

It is it's very Safeties inflected.

好吧。

Okay.

我这么说是因为

I say that with

你知道，我们也值得拥有一部萨夫迪式的电影。你懂吗？

You know, we deserve a Safeties too. You know?

完全正确。好吧。我的第五名是《炸药屋》，是的。我喜欢这个。我很想尽快看到。

That's exactly right. Okay. My number five is a house of dynamite, which Yeah. I like that. I'd like to see soon.

我很想尽快看到。是的。是的。那太糟糕了。你的第四名是什么？

I'd like to see soon. Yeah. Yeah. That sucks. What's your number four?

《马蒂至尊》？

Marty Supreme?

是的。这是我的第三名。

Yeah. This is my number three.

是的。

Yeah.

这是乔什·萨夫迪的新电影，目前还没有出现在电影节片单上。预告片在我们度假期间发布了。我已经看了六遍。

This is Josh Safdie's new movie, which is not currently on a festival slate. The trailer came out while we were on vacation. I've watched it six times.

好吧。我不看这个了。我直接去看电影。

Okay. I I'm not watching it. I'm just gonna go see the movie.

是啊。我超期待的。提莫西·查拉梅饰演一个五十年代左右的乒乓球嗯。巫师。

Yeah. I'm pretty pumped. Timothee Chalamet plays a table tennis Mhmm. Wizard circa nineteen fifties.

嗯。当然。

Yeah. Of course.

格温妮丝·帕特洛饰演他潜在的爱情对象。

Gwyneth Paltrow plays his potential love interest.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在预告片里注意到弗兰·德雷舍。太棒了。还有几个其他知名演员。我对这部电影非常、非常、非常兴奋。这就像是 是啊。

I noted Fran Drescher in the trailer. Great. Couple of other notable people in there. I'm very, very, very excited about this movie. This is like Yeah.

今年的最后一部电影。你懂我意思吗？它会在圣诞节上映。整个十二月我们都会为这部电影预热。期待着

The last movie of the year. You know what I mean? Where it's like it's coming out on Christmas. We'll kinda be like leading up to this movie through December. Looking forward

到 我准备好了。

to I'm ready.

是啊。我也是。好了。下一个是什么？哦，我的第四 我的第四名是《别无选择》，这是那部我超期待的公园电影。

Yeah. Me too. Okay. What's next? Oh, my number my number four my number four is No Other Choice, which is the the park film that I'm pumped for.

我看过了。

I've seen it.

我知道。是啊。别再说了。

I know. Yeah. Stop rubbing it in.

我的第三名是《哈姆雷特》，你在特柳赖德非常喜欢它，那里的每个人也都是。你从远处就能看出这是特柳赖德的爆款。我的意思是，保罗·马斯克尔穿着Carhartt拍了超多照片，但他看起来很棒。

My number three is Hamlet, which you liked very much as did everyone at Telluride. And you could tell from afar that this was the, like, the Telluride breakout. I I mean, I do think that, you know, Paul Maskell posed for just like a tremendous amount of photos in his Carhartt, but he looked great.

是啊。他在电影里表现得很好，但对我来说他不是电影的核心。是的，我的第三名，如我所说，是《马蒂至尊》。你的第二名是什么？

So Yeah. And he's very good in the film, but he's not the story of the movie to me. Yeah. My number three, as I said, is Marty Supreme. What's your number two?

好的。我的第二名是《 sentimental value》（ sentimental value），你看过而我没看过，我很想看。

Okay. My number two is sentimental value, which you have seen and I have not, and I would like to.

是啊。我不是在炫耀。它确实不错。

Yeah. I'm not rubbing it in. It's good.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的第二名是《Ann Lee的遗嘱》。是的。

My number two is the testament of Ann Lee. Yeah.

她是

She's one

你在电影节的最爱之一。总是那些神秘人物，这支股票的表现大约五年来一直相当稳定。

of your faves at the festival. Always the cypher heads, the stock's been hitting pretty consistently for about five years.

是啊。

Yeah.

自从伊丽莎白·霍姆斯以来，她一直表现出色。我想说的是，当她的奥斯卡竞选真正开始时，我们需要做一期《我终于看了妈妈咪呀》的节目。

Ever since Elizabeth Holmes, she's been just nailing it on. And one of the things I was gonna say is when her Oscar campaign really happens, we need to do the I finally watch Mamma Mia episode.

是的，你确实需要。另外，你从没看过汤姆·霍珀的《悲惨世界》，对吧？

Yes. You do. Also, you have never seen the Tom Hooper Les Mis. Right?

没有，我没看过。是的。

No. I haven't. Yeah.

是的。还有，那里有两段她唱歌的镜头，都是特写。我当时就想，哦不，我们要进入《悲惨世界》的领域了，但他们避开了。她真的表现得很好。

Yeah. Which another there there's, like, two shots where she's singing and, like, intense close-up. And I was like, oh, no. We're getting into Les Mis territory, but they get away from it. And she's she's she's really good.

所以这对你来说会是一段相当精彩的旅程。你看过《贱女孩》吗？

So it's gonna it's gonna be quite a ride for you. Have you seen Mean Girls?

我爱《贱女孩》。她在《贱女孩》里非常搞笑。她有 ESPN。不，我爱她，但有趣的是我没看过她两部最大的电影。

I love Mean Girls. She's very funny in Mean Girls. She has ESPN. No. I love her, but it's funny that I've not seen her two biggest movies.

是的，没关系。我们会补上的。

Yeah. That's okay. We'll we'll catch up.

我的第二名是《安·李的遗嘱》。你的第一名和我的是一样的。是什么？

Number two for me, said testament of Ann Lee. Number one for you is the same as for me. What is it?

一场接一场的战斗。

One battle after another.

还没看过。

Still haven't seen it.

没有电影节。

No festivals.

三周后就要上映了。

It's coming out in three weeks.

那很快啊。我一回来就得马上投入...其实不是这样。我得去看《偷盗成瘾》，真的时差还没倒过来。

So it's so soon. As soon as as soon as I get back, we gotta jump into that's not true, actually. I have to go see caught stealing really jet lagged.

那会很有意思。我们本来打算这周晚些时候在节目里聊《偷盗成瘾》，还有最高到最低排名。但在那之前，在我们结束前，让我们试着...让我们试着敲定最佳影片。

That'll be interesting. We were gonna talk about caught stealing later this week on the pot along with highest to lowest. But before we do that, before we take off, let's try to let's try to hash out best picture.

好的。

Okay.

现在真的很难选，而且很假。我觉得去年这个时候我们实际上猜中了八个，甚至可能是九个。

This is really hard right now and really fake. I think we actually got eight out of 10, maybe even nine out of 10 at this time last year.

哇。

Wow.

但今年我们看的远没有那么多。所以我们能不能先列出名单，再开始尝试排序？

But this year we just haven't seen nearly as much. So let's just like can we just list them before we start trying to rank anything?

是的。好的。那么第一，《罪人》。

Yeah. Okay. So number one, Sinners.

《罪人》。对。我们至少知道这部片子已经面世了。大家都很喜欢。它几乎肯定会被提名最佳影片。

Sinners. Yes. Which we know at least is out in the world. People love it. It's almost certainly gonna be nominated for best picture.

虽然随着更多电影开始涌现，还不能完全确定。但我强烈认为《哈姆奈特》，你知道我

Although not definitely as more films start come start to come across. I feel strongly in saying Hamnet, you know I

这似乎是对的

that seems right to

是的。我相信情感价值会存在的。

Yeah. I believe sentimental value will be there.

我我也觉得这似乎也是对的。

I I think that that seems right as well.

你觉得《炸药屋》怎么样？

How do you feel about House of Dynamite?

我想我，是的。我想我可以。

I think I yeah. I think I could.

现在你认为这是唯一一部会被提名最佳影片的网飞电影吗？

Now do you think this is the only Netflix movie that will be nominated for best picture?

嗯，我，杰·凯利可能，经济形势从未给过他奥斯卡奖，但他们真的很喜欢《婚姻故事》。

Well, I I Jay Kelly is probably the economy has never given him an Oscar, but they really liked Marriage Story.

你

You

知道，我觉得他已经在雷达上了。而且正如你所说，这是一个，稍微年长一点的投票者

know, I feel like he's on the radar. And it is such a, as you said, like, slightly older voter

在一部好莱坞电影里。

In a Hollywood movie.

没错。不过，我们每年都这么说，但我觉得随着时间推移，这个说法越来越不准确了。主要是因为学院变得越来越国际化。但我认为它仍然足够美国化。是的。

Right. Though, like, we say that every year, and it I feel like that becomes less and less true as years goes on. It's really just because the academy gets more international. But I think that that it's still American enough. Yes.

好吧。

Okay.

杰·凯利。

J Kelly.

《愤世者哈姆雷特》、《情感价值》、《炸药屋》、杰·凯利。有件事我想问你，你知道Netflix的片单上有不少电影，我们在拍卖特辑里讨论过。嗯。你觉得《火车梦》还有机会回归吗？因为《弗兰肯斯坦》

Cynics Hamnet, sentimental value, house of dynamite, Jay Kelly. One thing I wanted to ask you, you know, is a big there's a lot of movies on Netflix's slate, which we talked about on our auction episode. Mhmm. Do you think there's room for train dreams to come back in because Frankenstein

没错。

That's right.

杰·凯利，小角色。这些影片的反响比我们预期的要平淡得多。我在想这是否意味着《火车梦》有机会。我知道你还没看。

Jay Kelly, small player. These are much more muted receptions than we were expecting. And I was wondering if that means that there's a train dreams opportunity there. I know you haven't seen it yet.

是的。还没看。那是部圣丹斯电影，乔尔·埃哲顿和伐木...我说对了吗？

Yeah. No. I haven't seen it yet. That's a Sundance movie that and Joel Edgerton and logging. Am I getting this right?

虽然我还没看——根据丹尼斯·约翰逊的小说改编。

Even though I haven't based on a Dennis Johnson novel.

他们总是有压轴惊喜。你知道，他们总能想出办法。但我不确定会是《火车梦》还是其他...我是说，可能性很开放。

They always have a late breaker. You know, they always figure something out. But I don't know whether it would be train dreams or whether it would be I mean, it's pretty open.

是的。还有另一部电影叫《左撇子女孩》，由肖恩·贝克担任制片和剪辑，我认为是由他的长期制片伙伴兼合作者石成图执导的。那也可能是Netflix近期推出的一部电影。

Yeah. There's another saying no. Yeah. There's another film called Left Handed Girl, which was produced and edited by Sean Baker, which I think is directed by Shi Cheng Tu, the his longtime producing partner and collaborator. And that could also be a late breaking Netflix movie.

我不...我不...是的。它没那么大制作，但我有点着迷于Netflix居然有六部符合资格的电影。而就像三个月前，你可能会说，《弗兰肯斯坦》应该挺不错吧。比如，《噩梦巷》都获得了最佳影片提名，你知道吧？

I don't I don't Yeah. It's not as big, but I'm kinda I'm fascinated by Netflix having, like, six eligible movies. Whereas, like, three months ago, you'd be like, yeah, Frankenstein probably pretty good. Like, Nightmare Alley got a Best Picture nomination. You know?

你会觉得《弗兰克》也许《弗兰肯斯坦》在电影节之外会更受欢迎。也许普通观众会喜欢它，但我不这么认为。是的。

You'd think Frank and maybe Frankenstein will be better received outside of the festivals. Maybe regular audiences will like it, but I don't think so. Yeah.

我也不这么认为。好的。那我们有多少部了？我们有

I don't think so either. Okay. So how many do we have? We have

《罪人》、《哈姆内特》、《情感价值》、《炸药屋》、《杰伊·凯利》。那是五部。

Sinners, Hamnet, Sentimental Value, House of Dynamite, Jay Kelly. That's five.

好的。

Okay.

我们还有几部没看过的。我会把《马蒂至尊》一部接一部地抛给你。

We have a few that we haven't seen. I'll throw Marty Supreme one battle after another at you.

我觉得两部都有可能。感觉...感觉像是。或者至少，你知道，目前是可能的。

I think both are likely. Feels feels like. Or at least, you know, possible right now.

行。

K.

他们总是...他们总是能为PTA搞定。

They all they always come through for PTA.

你和你们对《粉碎机器》的评价不是特别高，对吧？

You and you were not super high on Smashing Machine. Right?

我觉得，我的意思是，我并不完全属于MMA、UFC或摔角那个圈子。某种程度上，我其实觉得所有那些道恩·强森（巨石强森）在优美音乐伴奏下痛击对手的镜头，实际上相当美妙。我喜欢那部分。但电影的节奏让我有些困惑，部分原因可能是我对体育方面的内容没那么投入。

I think that I I mean, I'm not in the, like, the MMA, UFC, like, wrestling world at some point is just kind of like, I I actually thought all of those the footage of Dwayne The Rock Johnson pulverizing people set to beautiful music. Like, it was actually quite beautiful. I liked that. But I was sort of befuddled by, I guess, the the pacing of the movie. And some of that is just because I'm not as invested in the, like, the sport aspect.

是的。我前段时间有机会看了这部电影，我真的很喜欢。它很大程度上是本尼和纳森·菲尔德合作的《诅咒》的精神续作，这对一些只看过电影预告——那种更经典的成功体育电影式预告——的人来说可能很意外。但我五年来一直恳求道恩·强森拍些好电影，而这部...

Yeah. I I had a chance to see it a while ago, and I really liked it. And it's very much a spiritual sequel to Benny's show The Curse with Nathan Fielder, which may surprise some people to hear that based on the trailer that they watched of the movie, which is kind of more classically triumphant sports movie trailer. But I'd I'd I've been begging for five years for Dwayne Johnson to make good movies. And Yeah.

是的，这无疑是朝正确方向迈出的一步。而且，你知道，我认为本尼的使命和道恩的使命非常有趣——不是对比，他们是在合作，但萨夫迪在这部电影里探索了一些非常奇特的东西。实际上，我看到大卫·西姆斯在Letterboxd上把它比作本尼和乔什几年前关于大学篮球运动员伦尼·库克的纪录片《伦尼·库克》。

Yeah. This is a step in the right direction for sure. And I, you know, I I think what what Benny's mission is and what Duane's mission is is a very interesting not a contrast. They're working together, but Safdie is into something very strange in this movie. Actually, David Sims, I saw in Letterbox comped it with Lenny Cook, the documentary that Benny and Josh made some years ago about the college basketball player Lenny Cook.

我喜欢这种类比，作为理解他们如何看待体育、以及这部电影如何思考运动员身份的一种方式。不过总之，我们之后还会更多讨论《粉碎机器》，因为它一个月后就上映了。到时候我们再细聊。好了，那么Marty Supreme，一场接一场的战斗。

And I like that as, like, a way of thinking about how they think about sports and how this movie thinks about being an athlete. But, anyway, we'll talk more about Smashing Machine because it's out in a month. So we'll get to it when we get there. Okay. So Marty Supreme one battle after another.

还有什么其他电影？

What else is out there?

让我看看。我知道我们忘了... 嗯，我们先说说国际影片吧。好吗？因为我们每年都会有几部国际片。嗯，所以这就是我不确定是否觉得《海棠》（Begonia，非国际片）和《别无选择》（No Other Choice）都有空间。

Let's see. I know we're forgetting well, let's let's do international. Okay? Because we get a few internationals every year. Well and so this is what I don't know whether I think there's room for both Begonia, which is not international, but, you know, and no other choice.

我认为它们是成对的，或者不算成对，但它们有很多共同点。好吧。而且它们也以最好的方式存在，你知道，那些导演喜欢挑战观众。《别无选择》能入选吗？它是Neon发行的。

I think that they are are twinned, or they're not twinned, but they have they have a lot in common. Okay. And they are also out there in the best way in terms of, you know, those directors like to, like to push the audience. So does no other choice get in? It's, you know, it's neon.

我觉得片方会大力推这部。我认为它是金狮奖的有力竞争者。你知道吧？今年是不是朴赞郁突破最佳影片的那一年，这是个好问题。

It's I think there's gonna be a major push for it. I I think it's a contender for Golden Lion. You know? Is the it is this the year that it breaks that Park Chan wook breaks through best picture is is is a good question.

我的直觉说是的。这倒不是基于什么具体依据——毕竟还没看电影，只是因为近几年我们看到很多国际电影取得突破。我认为对朴赞郁的认可度在逐渐提高。我们把《小姐》列入了我们的25部25年倒计时榜单。你说它是一部关于晚期资本主义的电影。

My gut says yes. That's not really based on anything having not seen the movie except just that we've seen a lot of international films breakthrough in the last few years. I think the appreciation of Park is growing over time. We included the handmaiden in our 25 for 25 countdown list. You said it's a late capitalism movie.

这是一个在

That's a theme that's been

对。

Right.

学院派中相当主流的主题。你完全可以说《Enora》也是这类电影之一。

Fairly dominant with the academy. You could certainly make the case that Enora is another one of those films.

也许我错了，他们可能也会选《Begonia》。只是感觉学院喜欢那些华丽的古装剧，乔戈斯。嗯。而这部电影有点在拿那部分观众开涮的意思。所以我不确定。

And and maybe I'm wrong, and they would do Begonia too. It just it feels like the Academy likes favorite poor things costume drama, Jorgos. Mhmm. And this is having a little bit of fun at at that audience's expense. So I don't know.

我同意这个观点。我觉得很有道理。那么剩下的，我认为就是好莱坞大片了。

I'll go with that. I think that makes a lot of sense. Then that leaves, I think, to behemoth Hollywood movies.

哦，当然。《魔法坏女巫》第二部。

Oh, sure. Wicked part two.

《魔法坏女巫》应该能行，还有《阿凡达：火与灰》。

Wicked for good and Avatar Fire and Ash.

哦，对。《阿凡达》。那个，是的。

Oh, that's right. Avatar. Which Yeah.

当然，前两部都获得了最佳影片提名。是的。我...好吧。我能提个大胆的预测吗？不是说我真的相信。

Of course, the first two were nominated for best picture. Yeah. I okay. Can I prop for a take? I'm not saying I believe this.

如果这是梦幻橄榄球播客的‘大胆预测清理环节’，我肯定会抛出这个。我的预测是：《阿凡达：火与灰》将会是最好的一部阿凡达电影，但不会获得任何奥斯卡提名。

If this were the fantasy football podcast take purge, I would definitely pitch this. Here's my pitch. Avatar fire and ash will be the best Avatar movie, but will get no Oscar nominations.

好的。

Okay.

我不知道我是否相信这个说法，因为它显然会获得最佳视觉效果奖。但我觉得

I don't know if I believe that because it there it obviously is gonna get best visual effects. But I feel like

所以你是对这部分说法有意见，而不是？嗯，而不是它会成为最佳影片。

it's So that's the part of the take you have a problem with rather than? Well Rather than it'll be the best one.

我的意思是，最佳影片是

I mean, the best one is

你可以全心全意地这么说。

You can say that with your whole heart.

我的意思是，大多数人似乎甚至都不关心这些，除了真正的卡梅隆铁粉。就连我们亲爱的克里斯·瑞安都没看过《阿凡达》就批评它。

I mean, most people don't don't even seemingly care about them except for the real Cameron heads, even our own beloved Chris Ryan dumped on Avatar having never seen it.

是啊。不。我看《弗兰肯斯坦》的时候就在想《阿凡达》，因为我觉得，大吉姆（卡梅隆）绝不会让这种烂片过关的。你知道吗？就像

Yeah. No. What I was thinking about Avatar while I was watching Frankenstein, because I was like, Big Jim would not let this shit out the door. You know? Like

哦，我同意这一点。

Oh, I agree with that.

只是...只是他...也许那不是我想投入所有时间的世界，但当你去看的时候，他确实把它拍得很好看。而且，我不知道...我不知道那算什么。

Just it's just he It's it's maybe not the world that I wanna spend all my time in, but when you go see it, like, he makes it look good. And, like, I don't know I don't know what that was.

还有几部我们没列出的电影，但我认为可能会引起一些反响。《租赁家人》本周晚些时候将在多伦多国际电影节首映，这是布兰登·弗雷泽的新片，由Hikari执导，口碑很好。我要把《火车梦》也放在名单的这个部分。

There is a handful of other titles that were not we haven't listed, but I think could make some noise. So Rental Family is premiering at TIFF later this week. New Brendan Fraser movie directed by Hikari, which has strong word-of-mouth. I'm gonna put Train Dreams on this part of the list here.

好的。

Okay.

还有什么，我们还需要准备什么？我是说，也许斯普林斯汀的作品会火，你懂吗？也许斯普林斯汀

What else is what else do we need to get? I mean, maybe Springsteen hits. You know? Maybe Springsteen

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

对于特定类型的观众来说，这很合适，你知道。《波西米亚狂想曲》曾经获得过奥斯卡奖，所以这并非不可能。显然，《完全未知》在学院派中反响很好。然后我们忘了提，那只是个意外。

For a certain kind of audience is is a fit, you know. Bohemian Rhapsody once upon a time was an Academy Award winner. So that's not out of the realm of possibility. Obviously, Complete Unknown did very well with the Academy. And then we neglected to mention it was just an accident.

没错。

Right.

那部电影赢得了金棕榈奖，还有霓虹灯奖，对吧。后面……我想我们已经涵盖了所有内容。我是说，可能还有一些我们没看到的。哦，那个《这东西开着吗？》怎么样？

Which won the palm and has neon Right. Behind I I think we've gotten I think we've gotten everything. I mean, there's probably a few things that we haven't seen. Oh, what about is this thing on?

天啊，我们完全忘了那部。

Oh my god. We totally forgot about that.

那部将在纽约电影节首映，新布莱德利，昆斯伯里，对吧。

That's premiering at the New York Film Festival, New Bradley, Queensbury. Right.

所以它是在《狩猎》之后。所以不行。听着，就像我说的，我不知道结局如何。

So it was after the hunt. So no. Listen. Like I said, I don't know how it ends.

非常经典的阿曼达式故事，我必须告诉你。错过了我最期待的电影的最后二十分钟……这不是我的错。没人怪你，没人怪你。

Very a classic Amanda story, I must tell you. Missed the last twenty minutes of my most anticipated movie at It's the not my fault. No one's blaming you. No one is blaming you.

我真的很努力了。我排着队呢。嗯哼。你知道吗？换个时间再研究你的声音吧，我可不想在雷暴天气里被闪电劈死。

I tried so hard. I was in line. Mhmm. You know? Figure out your sound another time, when I'm not about to die in a lightning storm.

我觉得你应该把它列入清单。

I think that you should put it on the list.

不会把一半都列进去的。我是在确定这个东西要不要列入清单。

Not putting half of them on the list. I'm putting is this thing on the list for sure.

不。对。对。对。我就是这个意思。

No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I meant.

另外，安·李的遗嘱，我们也需要讨论一下。

Also, testament of Ann Lee, we need to bat as well.

当然。你知道谁真的、真的超爱布莱德利·库珀吗？是学院派。

Sure. You know who really, really loves Bradley Cooper is the Academy.

他们确实爱。14次奥斯卡提名呢。

They sure do. 14 Academy Award nominations.

我知道。

I know.

所以好吧。天啊。肯定还会有我们没想到的惊喜。周日和周一在特柳赖德电影节上有个有趣的讨论点，在我们看完所有影片并读了威尼斯影评之后，你知道，除了《炸药屋》，还有哪些作品在角逐中？

So Okay. Gosh. There's gonna be another surprise that we don't see coming. One thing that was an interesting conversation point on Sunday and Monday at the Telluride Film Festival, once we had seen everything and we had read the Venice reviews, you know, aside from House of Dynamite was is weapons in play?

哦，对。我们还没聊过这个，但我得去看它。我已经接受了这个事实。我知道我必须去。就像，首周末票房超过4000万美元，我当时就想，这是怎么回事？

Oh, yeah. So we haven't talked about this, but I I'm gonna have to go see it. I have accepted that. I know that I have to. It's like, the 40,000,000 plus box office on the first weekend, I was like, what's going on?

这真是个惊人的现象，非常令人兴奋。我的意思是，我努力做了一期合格的单人节目，但确实有一期内容真的需要一个团队来讨论。所以这个月下旬，等你去看了之后，我、你还有克里斯可以一起聊聊，我们会做一个正式的深度讨论。也许等它上线点播平台的时候正是合适时机。

It was an it's an amazing phenomenon. It's very exciting. I mean, you know, I worked hard to do a competent solo episode, but there was an episode that really demanded a crew having the conversation. So later this month, me and you and Chris, we can talk about it once you've gone to see it, and we'll do, you know, a proper look. Maybe once it hits VOD will be the time to do it.

不过说真的，我在首映场影院观看时的感受就是——这片子成了。你能感觉到一部电影真正奏效了，而且观众也买账。显然有些影评人被难住了，因为他们觉得影片没有兑现之前铺垫的某些叙事暗示。你观看时可能也会有同感。

But yeah, man. I mean, look, I the feeling that I had in the theater when I saw it at the premiere, I was like, this just works. You know when a movie is just like really working and it's working for an audience? And it has obviously like stymied some critics because they feel like it doesn't fulfill some of the narrative suggestion that it throws out there. And you might you might feel that way when you see it.

你可能会觉得这方面有点让人泄气。但作为惊险之旅，它实在太有趣了，就像是享受了一场精彩的影院体验。所以你必须去看。没错。

You might be like you might find it a little enervating in that way. But as like a thrill ride, it's just so fun. It's just like a fun time at the movies. So you have to see it. Yeah.

我同意你的观点。我会去看的，现在光是想想就已经开始紧张了。我的反驳只是个人经历——我飞往欧洲的航班上恰巧坐在一位听众旁边。嗯，这倒是挺不错的。

I agree with you. I'm gonna see it. I'm I'm stressed out already thinking about it. My counterpoint is just anecdotal, but I sat next to a listener and my flight to Europe Mhmm. Which was very nice.

和听众共处这么长时间啊？感觉怎么样？

That's a lot of time to spend with a listener. How was that?

我们大部分时间都在睡觉。

We we slept for most of it.

好吧。

Okay.

你懂的吧？

You know?

是雅丝吗？是不是

Was it Yahse? Is that

你指的那个人？

who you're referring to?

不，抱歉。我记不起他的名字了。他非常可爱，还帮我提了行李箱。

No. I'm sorry. I can't remember his name. He's very lovely. And help me with my suitcase.

但他说他问我是否看过《武器》，因为这是很久以前的事了。我说我没看过。他说他看过两次，然后他告诉了他父母——我记得是电影圈的人——让他们去看。但下一代电影人父母对此反应不好，因为他们没看过。

But he said he asked if I had seen weapons because this was forever ago now. And I I said I hadn't. And he said that he had seen it twice. And then he had told, I believe, like, his parents who are movie people to go see it. And that was not received well by the next generation of movie parents that they weren't there.

所以我确实想知道是否存在代际

So I do wonder if there is a generational

可能有。

There could be.

隔阂。

Gap.

可能有。

There could be.

我只是转述一下。然后他根据我的推荐在飞机上看了《更好的男人》。

I'm just passing that along. Then he watched Better Man on the Plane at my sort of recommendation.

今年竞争非常激烈，从我们刚列出的17部电影就能看出，但这让我想起《第六感》。你知道吗？那种‘你必须去看这部电影’的感觉。那部电影最终比《武器》影响更大，但《武器》在算是个中等夏天的档期表现非常出色，成为一大亮点，是以最小规模取得如此成功的电影之一。

It's a this is a very crowded year as you can see from the 17 movies that we just listed, but it reminds me of the sixth sense. You know? Which was like a you have to go see this movie feeling. That movie was a bigger phenomenon ultimately than weapons, but weapons did really well in what turned out to be like a kind of medium summer. It became one of the big stories, one of the smallest movies to do so well.

它和《罪人》同一年上映。有可能同属一家公司的《罪人》会压制它，也许只有艾米·马迪根会在女配角奖项竞争——今年女配角是个相对较弱的类别。所以这部电影可能只是被讨论，也许克雷格有可能获得编剧提名。但没错，有这部电影真好。

It's in the same year as Sinners. It's possible that Sinners, which is from the same studio, will block it out and maybe only Amy Madigan will be competing in supporting actress, which is a fairly weak category this year, supporting actress. So she could you know, the movie could just be in the conversation. Maybe a screenplay nomination is somewhat possible for Craiger. But, yeah, great to have that movie.

能有这部电影出现在电影文化中真是太好了。好了，我们试着帮我稍微理清一下顺序，好吗？好的。

Just great to have that movie in the movie culture. Alright. Let's try to just, like, just help me bang this into order a little bit. Okay? Okay.

好的。

Alright.

我来列出我们刚才提到的所有电影。好吧。《罪人》、《哈蒙德》、《纪录片》、《情感价值》、《炸药屋》、《杰伊·凯利》、《马蒂·苏普里姆》、《一场又一场的战斗》、《秋海棠》、《别无选择》。

I'm gonna list all the movies that we just that we just mentioned. Okay. Sinners, Hammond. Of the doc. Sentimental value, house of dynamite, Jay Kelly, Marty Supreme, one battle after another, begonia, no other choice.

那只是个意外。一共10部。

It was just an accident. That's 10.

对。

Right.

《为善而恶》、《阿凡达：火与灰》、《租赁家庭》、《火车梦》、《为我从无处来的救济》、《这东西是安·李的遗嘱吗？》一共17部。

Wicked for good, Avatar Fire and Ash, rental family, train dreams, Dole For Me From Nowhere, is this thing on the testament of Ann Lee? That's 17.

好的。

Okay.

可能有些我们漏掉了，因为我们是在盲目飞行。我们现在没有制作人。杰克，快点回来。

There's probably something we've neglected to mention just because we're we're flying blind here. We don't have a producer right now. Jack, come back soon.

我想他应该快到了。杰克，一路平安。

I think he think he's on his way. Jack, travel safely.

是的，杰克。请注意安全。帮我整理一下顺序。你现在心中的第一名是什么？

Yes, Jack. Please be safe. Help me put him in order. What's the number one right now in your mind?

第一名？

Number one?

是的。那么《哈姆奈特》呢？是情感价值吗？

Yeah. Then Hamnet? Is it sentimental value?

我想是情感价值吧。这方面我相信你的判断。

Sentimental value, I think. I trust you on that one.

我是说，我确实对《阿诺拉》说过同样的话。

I mean, I did I did say this about Anora.

你说过吗？

You did?

用同样的方式。非常早期。所以我的雷达变得更准了。如你所知，我们已经远离了《逃出绝命镇》角逐最佳影片的那个时代。

In the same way. Very early. So my radar has gotten better. We've come a long way from the get out for best picture days, as you know.

没错。而且学院也发生了变化。

Right. Also, the academy has changed too.

他们

They

确实变了。所以基于电影节的表现，我认为目前《哈姆奈特》的情感价值更高。是的。胜过威尼斯电影节任何形式的共识。但话说回来，你应该把《炸药屋》也放进去。

have. So sentimental value, I think, right now, based on festival stuff, I think there's more Hamnet. Yeah. Over any sort of festival consensus around the Venice stuff. But then, you know, you should put House of Dynamite on there.

我不认为《炸药屋》会赢得最佳影片，因为我觉得他们已经做过毕格罗那种类型了，你知道的。

I don't I don't think House of Dynamite is gonna win Best Picture just because I think they already did the Bigelow thing, you know.

但他们也做过赵婷那种。今年也可能是两位女性获得最佳导演提名的年份。很不寻常。如果《安·李的遗嘱》入围，甚至可能是三位。哇。

But they also did the Chloe Zhao thing. This is also a year where you could have two women nominated for best director. Unusual. Maybe even three if you get the testament of Ann Lee. Wow.

想想看，那从来不会发生。是真的。

Think about that. That never happens. It's true.

我坐在《安·李的遗嘱》的放映现场，我真的很喜欢这部电影。我当时确实在想，我不知道这片子会不会得到同样的反响——首先，它和《野兽派》有很多共同点，而且显然是由同一个团队制作的。但《野兽派》规模更大，我是说它更长，也更雄心勃勃，至少是传统男性意义上的那种雄心。而且它是关于一个男人的故事。

I I sitting in the testament of Ann Lee, which I really, really liked. I did think to myself, I was like, I don't know if this is gonna get the same reaction that you know, first of all, it is it has a lot in common with the brutalist, and it's obviously made by this, you know, the same team. But the the brutalist is is bigger. I mean, it is longer, but it is trying to do it is more ambitious, at least in the, you know, traditional masculine sense of that word. And it's about a dude.

所以我坐在那里就在想，我不知道这部电影是否能获得和一部关于大屠杀幸存者建筑师电影同等的关注度。这并不是电影的错，我觉得这只是投票机制和世界运作的方式。所以我不确定。如果它能获得提名我会非常激动，但我真的说不准。

And so I sitting there, I was like, I I don't know whether this will get the same level of attention that a movie about a holocaust survivor architect is gonna get. So the and and and that's not the movie's fault. I think that's just the the way the voting in the world works. So so I don't know. I would be thrilled if it got nominated, but I don't know.

嗯，我们现在处境有点棘手，因为确实如此。电影太多而名额有限。看看我们有哪些候选：《罪人》

Well, we're in a tricky spot here because Yeah. We got too many movies for not enough spots. Yeah. So look at what we have. Sinners,

杰·凯利，那就把《邪恶女巫：为了美好》和《阿凡达：火与灰》放进去吧。我们都知道这肯定会发生。

Jay Kelly So put Wicked For Good and Avatar Fire and Ash on there. Like, we know that's gonna happen.

呃，我不太确定《阿凡达》能入选。我知道质疑大詹姆斯是好莱坞代价最高的赌注，我也不建议任何人下这个注。但我觉得距离《水之道》确实有点太近了。如果它哪怕只是稍微让人失望，我觉得这样的电影就可能...你懂吧？

Well, I'm not convinced that Avatar is gonna make it. I know doubting Big Jim is the costliest bet in Hollywood, and I'm not I'm not advising anyone make that bet. But I think it's just a little too soon from the way of water. I think it and if it disappoints even slightly, I could see a movie like that. You know?

我没意见，我们可以不给它名额。但我觉得《邪恶女巫：为了美好》还是得，你知道的。

I'm I'm fine. We don't have to give it a spot. But I think Wicked for good. We just gotta, you know.

是的，这个我们得坚决支持。我同意你的看法。好的。

Yeah. We gotta put our head down on that one. Yeah. I agree with you. Okay.

《罪人》，我觉得能进。

Sinners, think is getting in.

我真的觉得《弗兰肯斯坦》看起来太像《邪恶女巫》了。

I really thought Frankenstein looked so much like Wicked.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，当他们在实验室里的时候，抱歉。我只是觉得那并不是一句赞美。

Like, when they're in the lab sorry. It just I was and then that's not a compliment.

不。是调色和灯光有点不对劲，而且它带有那种Netflix特有的光泽，

No. It's the color grading and the lighting is just a little off, and it has that kind of that Netflix sheen on it that

我们有时会抱怨的那种。他们的拍摄方式有一种平淡感，这很令人困惑。总之，是的。罪人们。罪人们，没错。

we sometimes complain about. There's just like a flatness to the way they're filming that's very confusing. Anyway, yes. Sinners. Sinners, yes.

你

Do

觉得杰·凯利能入围吗？

you think Jay Kelly will make it?

我不知道。我不知道。有意思。目前来看，很可能可以。特柳赖德的反响让我觉得可以。

I don't know. I don't know. Interesting. Probably right now, yes. The the Telluride reception kinda makes me think yes.

我要把

I'm gonna put

杰·凯利排在乔治之后。我认为桑德勒会入围，而且桑德勒的宣传活动会走得很远。他看起来绝对是签约了。他从威尼斯直接飞到了特柳赖德。全家人都来了。

J Kelly George number I I think Sandler will make it, and the Sandler campaign will go a really long way. And it definitely seems like he has signed up. He flew straight from Venice to to Telluride. The whole family was here.

他也在特柳赖德。有机会和他打了招呼，他真是太棒了。我觉得他在电影里表现得相当出色，在一个奇怪的角色上，如果换别人演可能会很糟糕。因为这是另一部关于艺术家和经理人关系的电影。我觉得它以另一种方式处理了那种关系，而且处理得更好，特柳赖德的两部电影在互相呼应。

He was also at Telluride. Got a chance to say hi to him, and he's the greatest. He's I thought he was, like, pretty brilliant in the movie in a weird part that in the wrong hands would have been terrible. Because this is that's another movie that is about the relationship between an artist and a manager. I thought handled that relationship way differently and better another way the two movies that Telluride were talking to each other.

嗯。我觉得他很棒。我们看看大家怎么想吧。我暂时先把它放进去，因为会有很多人支持它。而且我觉得是时候讲述诺亚的故事了。

Mhmm. I thought he was great. We'll see we'll see how people feel about it. I'm putting it on for now because there's gonna be a lot of weight behind it. And I do think there's a good, like, it's time for Noah story to tell.

完全同意。好的，那我们来看看非美国影片吧。

Absolutely. Okay. So let's let's do non American.

好。

K.

哦，好吧。我看到你一个接一个地高亮显示战斗场景。我觉得你应该把它放进去，我同意。他们总是选择PTA。

Oh, okay. You I just saw you highlight one battle after another. I think you should put it in. I agree. They always go for PTA.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。我觉得，你知道，我们还没看到它。我们计划在未来三十天里制作大量关于这部电影的内容。我们都很兴奋，不想再浪费口舌讨论了。

Yeah. I think, you know, we haven't seen it yet. We've got a lot of content planned to cover this movie over the next thirty days. We're all really excited. We don't wanna waste any more breath on it.

对我来说，我们有三个名额给五部电影。我可以想象一个场景：没有其他选择，它只是意外入选。

To me, we got three spots for five movies. I I I could see a world where no other choice and it was just an accident get in.

我也能想象。我觉得这有道理。我的意思是，这真的只是Neon能否这样分散自己选票的问题。

I could as well. I think that makes sense. I mean, it's really just a question of can, like, can Neon split its own vote like that?

就是这样，如果它们因为情感价值、没有其他选择而意外入选，那将是一个惊人的举动。有可能发生的。那将会

That's what it and that's that would be an amazing act if they got sentimental value, no other choice, and it was just an accident in. It could happen. That would

看吧，我知道情感价值严格来说不算美国影片。

see it is I I know that sentimental value is technically not it's not American.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但其中有多少是英语的？你知道，只是想确认一下

But how much of it is in English? Which, you know, just to because

每一季都是艾丽·范宁，就这样。

Every season is Elle Fanning, And that's it.

好的。哦，有意思。所以这有点五花八门。我只是在想，因为美国观众真的，你知道，能代入。我需要看字幕还是不需要？

Okay. Oh, interesting. So it's kind of all over the place. I'm just trying to figure out because American voters can really, you know, code in. Do I have to have subtitles or do I not?

嗯。就国际层面而言。但这在美国观众看来会被视为国际作品。

And Mhmm. As in terms of international. But that's gonna scan as international to American voters.

它和美国电影产业有些关联。

It has some correlation to the American film industry.

好的。

Okay.

所以它不会像看《只是意外》或《别无选择》那样，你知道，那些电影里没有美国演员。没有英语对白。据我所知，《别无选择》里也没有。对。《马蒂至尊》、《海棠》、《阿凡达》、《火与灰》竞争最后一个名额。

So it's not gonna be the same as sitting down for it was just an accident or no other choice, which are you know, there are no American actors in those films. There's no English spoken. As far as I know, no other choice in those films. Right. Marty Supreme, Begonia, Avatar, Fire, and Ash for the last spot.

我不知道。我是说，马蒂的情况很难预料。因为一方面，它看起来阵容强大，有查拉梅，而且是24年的，而且他们目前名单上没有电影，他们从来不会名单上没有电影。

I don't know. I mean, it's impossible to know with Marty. Because on the one hand, it looks huge and it's Chalamet, and it's a 24, and they currently do not have a film on the list, and they never don't have a film on the list.

对。

Right.

你知道吗？我显然非常偏心，我真的很喜欢乔什，也很欣赏他作为电影人所做的一切。而且我不觉得A24公司会错过一部好电影。但我不确定，也许《原钻》当年没获得最佳影片提名，你知道吧？

You know? I'm obviously incredibly biased, and I really like Josh a lot and love what he's up to as a filmmaker. And I don't think 08/24 is gonna miss on a movie. But I don't know. Maybe it's maybe Uncut Gems was not nominated for best You know?

不能保证他们制作的那种电影——乔什制作的那种电影——会获得认可，我们不知道，真的不知道。而欧格斯·兰斯莫斯（Begonia应指Yorgos Lanthimos）可是经常获得提名的。

There's no guarantee that the kind of movies that they make that that Josh makes is gonna we don't know. We just don't know. Begonia, Jorgos is nominated all the time.

确实如此。但感觉大家为《可怜的东西》如此疯狂，部分原因是它跳脱了之前《狗牙》那样的风格。嗯。再说回刚才的话题，另一方面，如果我们认为杰西·普莱蒙会获得提名或可能赢得最佳男主角，而艾玛·斯通也会参与竞争

That's true. But it it does feel like people went so nuts for poor things in part because it departs from the dog tooth of it all. Mhmm. And this is going back a little bit. So on the other hand, if we think Jesse Plemons is gonna be nominated or or possibly win best actor and Emma Stone will be in the mix

嗯

Well

那这就会让它重新赢得大家的好感。

then that gets it back in people's good graces.

这点你说得对。我认为它至少有不错的几率获得那两个提名中的一个，但可能不是最佳影片。原因如下：焦点影业的资金和精力会放在《哈姆奈特》上，那才是他们真正力推的电影。

You're right about that. I think it's a there's a decent chance that it gets at least one of those two nominations and not best picture. And here's why. Focus is money will be on Hamnet. That's gonna be the movie that they really get behind.

这不代表他们不会支持《可怜的东西》，但他们最珍视的

It doesn't mean they're not gonna support Begonia, but their prized pony will be Hamnet. Okay. Focus has also never won best picture in its entire history.

哇。

Wow.

《哈姆奈特》，你知道，本该是《断背山》获奖的。应该是《断背山》，但结果不是。这些年来他们显然有很多优秀的电影。

Hamnet, you know, it should have been Brokeback Mountain. It should have been Brokeback Mountain, and it wasn't. They've had obviously a ton of great movies over the years.

《唐顿庄园》大结局。

Downton Abbey the grand finale.

比赛开始了。

It's in play.

放进去，放进去，放到10号位置。

Put put that in put that in number 10.

比赛开始了。

It's play.

你看过了吗？

Have you seen it yet?

没有，没有。我度假时错过了一场放映，但我们这个月会找个时间好好聊上整整18分钟，谈谈我们有多爱那些电影。那些电影简直太棒了。

No. No. I had to skip a screening while I was on vacation, but, we'll we'll do a solid eighteen minutes on it at some point this month and talk about how much we love those movies. Those movies are fucking rock.

我等不及了。我现在状态很好，我现在的选择是马蒂最佳。

I can't wait. I'm so good. I my right now, I'm saying Marty Supreme.

我也是。

I am too.

我的直觉告诉我。

My gut is telling me.

我也是。

I am too.

我觉得，那个焦点是查拉梅、格温妮丝，8月24日，而且它是一部时代剧，你知道？是的。再说，就像某些，那些服装，在人们看来有特定的意味。是的。所以

I I think that's that the bitch is Chalamet, Gwyneth, 08/24, the fact that it's like a period piece, you know? Yep. Again, like some like, the the costumes, like, read a certain way to people. Yep. So

好的。这是我们的前十名。对我来说，第四到第十名目前并没有严格的顺序，所以请不要纠结排序问题，阿曼达。第十名是《Jay Kelly》。

Okay. Here's our here's our top 10. I put the to me, like, four through 10 is not really in any order at this point, so please don't aggregate, Amanda. Okay. Number 10 is Jay Kelly.

第九名是《Wicked for Good》。第八名是《Sinners》。第七名是《One Battle After Another》。第六名是《It Was Just An Accident》。第五名是《no other choice》。

Number nine is Wicked for Good. Number eight is Sinners. Number seven is One Battle After Another. Number six is It Was Just An Accident. Number five is no other choice.

第四名是《Marty Supreme》。第三名是《House of Dynamite》。第二名是《Hamnet》。第一名是《sentimental value》。这是直觉反应。

Number four is Marty Supreme. Number three is House of Dynamite. Number two is Hamnet. And number one is sentimental value. Gut reaction.

你觉得我们现在猜对了最终前十名中的几个？

How many out of the final 10 do you think we got right right now?

七个？

Seven?

我猜八个。

I'm gonna say eight.

不错。但说实话，直到上周我们还在说今年特别奇怪。没有明显的夺冠热门。

Okay. That's good. But we do I mean, listen. It's until this past week, we've been saying it's an incredibly weird year. There are no obvious contenders.

我们根本摸不清状况。所以我觉得该对我们宽容点。

We don't know what's going on. So I'm trying to, you know, be kind to us.

我们是这么...

Here's what we

猜对七八个就很好了。

Seven or eight would be good.

哦，那确实不错。考虑到我们以此为生并从中赚钱，这已经很靠谱了。《秋海棠》《火与灰》嗯哼。《租赁家人》《火车梦》《斯普林斯汀》是关于安·李的遗训、《弗兰肯斯坦》和武器的。我们并不是预测它们能入围最佳影片。

Oh, that'd be yeah. That'd be solid considering we do this for a living and get money for it. Begonia, fire and ash Mhmm. Rental family, train dreams, Springsteen is this thing on the testament of Ann Lee, Frankenstein, and weapons. We're not predicting they go into best picture.

更不用说未来四个月还会有一两部我们不太了解的电影冒出来。

Not to mention the one or two other movies that hit in the next four months that we don't really know about.

没错。

Right.

所以，或者至少我们不——你知道，比如我不认为贾木许的电影会参与竞争。不觉得埃拉·麦凯会参与竞争，但也说不准。詹姆斯·L·布鲁克斯的电影，谁也说不准。《死吧我的爱》，谁也说不准。你看过《迟来的名声》了吗？

So or at least we don't, you know, I don't think like the Jarmish film, for example, is gonna contend. Don't think Ella McKay is gonna contend, but you never know. A James L Brooks movie, you never know. Die my love, you never know. Did you see late fame?

我没看。我错过了。

I didn't. I missed it.

那是肯特·琼斯的新电影，我很期待，由威廉·达福和格蕾塔·李主演。听说那部电影口碑不错。《屋顶人》呢？

That's the new Kent Jones movie, which I'm looking forward to, which is Willem Dafoe and Greta Lee. Heard nice things about that movie. Roof man?

屋顶人。

Roof man.

屋顶人。

Roofman.

克尔斯滕·邓斯特登上了《Town and Country》的封面。

Kirsten Dunst got a Town and Country cover.

嗯，我看到了。你知道，

So I saw that. You know,

世间一切安好。是在井里吗？不。但她说索菲亚正在为他们下一部合作的电影写剧本。所以这绝对是件大事。

all is right in the world. Is that in the in the well, no. But in it, she said that Sofia is working on the script for the next movie they're doing together. So that's it's absolutely gigantic.

用你的话说，我为你感到高兴。好了，我觉得我们这里的工作完成得很出色。感觉不错吧？

As you would say, I'm happy for you. Okay. I think we've done Yeoman's work here. Feeling good?

我感觉...哦不。不过好吧。我很期待看剩下的电影，也很期待回家。

I feel oh, no. But K. I'm excited to see the rest of the movies. I'm excited to come home.

意大利已经过了午夜。是的。你是明天飞回家吗？

It's after midnight in Italy. Yes. Is. Do you fly home tomorrow?

是的。

I do.

你准备好回家了吗？

Do you feel ready to come home?

我...我真的，再说一次，我很喜欢在这里。这段时光太棒了，即使我在暴风雨中发誓再也不回来。但我确实想家，想念我的孩子们。

I'm I'm really again, I I love being here. It was fantastic. Even when I swore I would never come back during the rainstorm. But I do I miss home. I miss my children.

想念我的丈夫。是的。我...我想念正常大小的淋浴间。

I miss my husband. Yeah. I'm I miss a normal sized shower.

是太小还是太大？

Is it too small or too big?

哦不，这个非常小。就像一个小...像储物柜一样，你知道吗？不过没关系。

Oh, no. This one's this one's very small. This is like a little like, it's like a locker. You know? But that that's okay.

不，能来这里非常愉快。这里很美。谢谢你，维妮夏，再见。

No. It's been lovely to be here. It's very beautiful. Thank you, Venetia, and goodbye.

再见，阿曼达。接下来是我与亚历克斯·拉塞尔的对话。这位是亚历克斯·拉塞尔，他的导演处女作

Goodbye, Amanda. Let's go to my conversation with Alex Russell. Here with Alex Russell, feature directorial debut

是的。《潜伏者》。

Yeah. Lurker.

你感觉怎么样？

How are you feeling?

我感觉非常

I feel very

紧张。好的。是关于这次对话，关于电影的反响，还是关于什么？

nervous. Okay. About this conversation, about the reception of the movie, about what?

所有这些。我觉得...我觉得现在和你交谈让我感觉非常暴露。但很高兴人们喜欢这部电影，我想。现在有更多机会让人们不喜欢它了。这就是

All of that. I think I think the exposure I feel very exposed right now talking to you. But I'm glad that people like the movie, I think. There's so many more opportunities now for people to not like it. Is how

我的感觉。为什么？因为你只在电影节背景下展示过。是的，那是个非常温暖的空间

I feel. Why? Because you only had it in a festival context. Yeah. That's a very warm space

作为首映。是的，是的。我确实认为那是个温暖的空间。在圣丹斯，人们是想要喜欢这部电影的，我认为。

for to premiere. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's a warm space. People want people want to like the movie at Sundance, I think.

而且现场都是...你知道，我让参与电影制作的人坐满了放映厅。所以那算是作弊代码。

And it's full of I, you know, I packed out my screening with people who worked on the movie. So it was that's a cheat code.

一个久经考验的策略。但人们

A tried and true strategy. But people

参与这部电影工作的人必须喜欢与你合作才能做到这一点。

who worked on the movie had to like working with you to do that.

好的。所以我想谈谈所有这些，以及你是如何制作这部电影的。当然。我看完后的感觉是，它所描绘的世界具有真实的质感和舒适感，本质上就是洛杉矶音乐圈的内部与外部。是的。

Okay. So I I wanna talk about all that, and how you came to make this movie. Sure. My sense from watching it was that it had a real texture and sense of comfort in the world that it's portraying, which is essentially kind of the inside outside of the LA music scene. Yeah.

至少接近一位成功的艺术家。我听到你在几次采访中说，这就像是一个你曾经或现在熟悉的世界。这是怎么回事？你为什么如此了解这个空间和这些角色？

At least proximate to a successful artist. And I heard you say in in a couple of interviews that this is like a world that you knew or know. How is that the case? How do you know this space and how do you know these characters so well?

是的。我的意思是，我所有的朋友至今仍然从事音乐行业。音乐经纪人、艺术家、制作人、DJ等等。我不知道具体是怎么发生的，但这就是我在洛杉矶的生活状态。我觉得我见过这些类型的团队、群体、分歧、动态，以及新艺术家那种引力般的吸引力。

Yeah. I mean, all of my friends to this day are still in music. Music managers, artists, producers, DJs, you know. I don't know how exactly that happened, but it just is my existence in LA. And I feel like I've seen these kinds of ensembles and groups and fallouts and dynamics and sort of like the gravitational pull of a new artist.

而且我见过这些周期多次上演，以至于你开始看到模式和原型之类的东西。所以是的，我觉得电影里的所有角色，我都见过某种版本的那类人。

And I've seen those cycles play out, I think, numerous times in a way where you start to see patterns and archetypes and stuff like that. So yeah. I feel like all the characters in the movie, I've seen some version of that guy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在构建它们时，我认为也运用了一些想象力。但了解那个世界让我能够对任何细节进行压力测试，我认为这对这部电影尤其关键。因为如果感觉不真实，它就会成为有史以来最老套的电影。这是我制作它时最大的恐惧。

And there was some imagination used, I think, in constructing them. But I think knowing that world just allowed me to stress test any any of the details, which I think for this movie in particular was key. Because if if it felt inauthentic, it's like the corniest movie of all time. And that was my big fear in making it.

是的。我也对电影中的一些美学选择感到好奇，因为它感觉非常具有监控观察性。你知道吗？感觉我们非常接近一个自然的世界，而不是由另一位电影制作人打造的东西。这本来可能是一部风格化很强的电影。

Yeah. I'm curious about some of the aesthetic choices in the movie too, because it feels very surveillance observational. You know? It feels like we're very close to a natural world instead of something that, like, made by a different filmmaker. This could be like a really stylized movie.

它色彩非常丰富、声音响亮，并且不一定感觉有侵入性。所以这是因为你试图复制你亲眼所见的那个场景的感觉吗？

It is very colorful and loud and and doesn't feel invasive necessarily. So was that because you were attempting to kind of replicate the feeling of the scene that you had witnessed yourself?

说实话，很多想法是在后期与我的摄影指导交流时才产生的。他叫帕特·斯科拉，是我的摄影指导，曾拍摄电影《新新监狱》。我觉得他为这些较为阴暗的人际互动带来了一种温暖和人性的质感，这确实很好地服务于电影。要知道，最初构思这类作品时，很可能会偏向芬奇式的冷峻或《夜行者》那种风格。

Honestly, a lot of that came later in the process when I started having conversations with my DP. He Pat Scola is my DP. He shot that movie Sing Sing. And I think he really brought like a warmth and like a human quality to these it's kind of darker interactions that everyone's having, which I felt really served the movie. I think they're you know, the first thought for making something like this could have been super like Finchery cold or like Nightcrawler type of feel.

但我觉得在其中建立一些对比挺好的，因为电影中的情节本身就会带来那种感觉。随着剧情进入后半段，某些部分会显得更加精准。我不知道该怎么说，我只是希望观众能感受到这些都是真实的角色、真实的人，他们的互动非常贴近生活。所以我希望人们明白，这部电影试图呈现某种程度的现实感。

But I guess it was nice to establish some contrast there because it things will already feel that way because of what happens in the movie. And there's some things that feel more precise as you get into the second half. And I don't know. I wanted you to feel like these were real characters and real people and the, you know, the interactions they have are very relatable. So I wanted people to understand that this was supposed to be somewhat realistic.

在你开始创作之前，身处那个世界时，是否曾目睹过某个触发事件或瞬间，让你突然意识到——这个故事弧线可能就藏在这个空间里，或某个人物身上，或他们的某个行为中？

Was there, like, an inciting incident or a moment that you witnessed when you were inside this world before you started writing that flipped flipped a switch and made you think, like, this could be there's the arc of a story inside of this this space or with that person or something that they did.

没有什么特别具体的事件。但电影中发生的许多事情都类似我亲眼所见或基于此类情况的推演。我进过这样的房间，但更多是一种内心的感受，一种整体的、或许可称为厌恶的情绪，让我想去探索。当时觉得风险很低，因为只是想着：我能探究这种感受吗？

Nothing in particular. But so many of the things that happened in the movie are similar to something I've witnessed or an extrapolation of something like that. You know, I've been in rooms like this. But it was more of like a feeling, an overall sort of maybe feeling of disgust that I felt within me that I wanted to explore. And it was very low stakes at the time because it was just like, can I explore this feeling?

我写剧本时，新冠疫情刚开始。嗯。我当时就想深入探索这种让我感到恶心的情绪，而最终成果就是这部电影。

COVID had just started Mhmm. When I wrote it. And I was like, I really want to explore this this kind of like nauseous feeling that I have and this is what came out of it.

你具体指什么？为什么感到恶心？是因为你与其中一个或多个角色产生了共鸣吗？

What do you mean? Like, what why did you feel nauseous? Because you've related to one of the or more of the characters?

我觉得更多是男性友谊层面的。就像我参与了一种奇怪的等级体系，你知道吧。这并非第一次有这种感觉，高中和大学时我就经历过。有时你是其中一类角色，有时又是另一类。

I think it was more of in a male friendship type of way. Like this is I'm participating in a strange hierarchy, you know. And it wasn't the first time. Like, I'd felt that way when I was in college or high school. And sometimes you're one of the characters, sometimes you're the other.

而且，你知道，男生之间不会谈论这种事。

And, you know, boys will not talk about that kind of thing.

是的。所以你觉得自己既经历过处于社交动态顶端，也体验过底端的滋味？

Yeah. You so you felt like you had been on top and on the bottom of certain social dynamics?

是的，我想是这样。或者说不完全是非此即彼的二元关系，但你总能意识到谁拥有对方在社交层面渴望的东西。我常举这个例子：有时你会同时收到新认识的酷朋友和老朋友发来的短信，你会先回复谁？这就是一种社交算计。嗯哼。

Yeah. I think so. Or it's like it's not binary like that, but there's always some awareness of who has something the other person wants socially. I always talk about how like, you know, sometimes you'll get a text from your cool new friend and and you'll on the same day, you'll get a text from your old friend and like, who do you text back first? That's a social calculation Uh-huh.

如果你还有任何羞耻心，你可能会对此感到些许愧疚，但没人会看到。除了你自己，没人会看到那种算计。我想这就是我在这部电影中想要探讨的东西。

That if you have any shame, might you might feel a little guilt about it, but no one sees it. No one sees that calculation except for you. And that was the kind of thing I wanted to to get into in this movie, I guess.

在你成为洛杉矶的成年人之前，你有过这种感觉吗？比如在高中时期，你会有那种感受吗？

Did you feel that before you were an adult in Los Angeles? Like, did you do you have did like in high school, you felt that way?

我不认为我当时意识到这一点——我觉得我无法用语言表达出来。

I don't think my awareness of it was I don't think I could have articulated it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我认为这是在我内心逐渐成长的东西。关于这部电影我想强调的是，场景只是背景。我觉得这个故事可以发生在很多不同的空间，只要有六个男人。而这只是我所了解的那个，你知道，也是我刚刚不久前还身处其中的那个。

But I think it was something that was growing in me. And something I do wanna emphasize about this movie is that like, the setting is a setting. And I think this movie could have taken place in a lot of different spaces where there's like six guys. And this was just the one that I knew about, you know, and the one that I had so just so recently been a part of.

我们谈到你是在疫情期间开始创作这个剧本的，但你知道，在此之前你的背景是电视剧编剧。嗯。你一直以来的目标都是制作长片吗？你是如何开始涉足写作和创作的？

We're talking about you, you know, starting to write this during COVID, but, you know, your your background before this was writing for television. Mhmm. Was was your intention always to be making features? Like, how did you even get involved in writing and making things in the first place?

我的意思是，在那之前我已经做了很多零预算的小型业余作品。然后当我成为电视剧编剧时——应该说我对希望、梦想和抱负的最高期望就是成为电视剧的编剧团队成员。

I mean, I'd done a lot of small amateur stuff for no budget leading up to that point. And then once I was a TV writer well, I should say the absolute ceiling for my hopes, dreams, and ambitions was being a staff writer on a TV show.

明白了。

Okay.

所以由我执导自己编写的电影这个想法简直遥不可及。实际上，此时此刻听起来真的很超现实。这竟然成真了。因为真的，老兄，你就在这里。我做到了，而且这确实就是我想拍的那部电影，我能想象出一百万种可能出错的方式，特别是参加电影节时。

So the idea of me directing a movie that I wrote was beyond farfetched. Actually, in this moment, it sounds really surreal. That that that's real. Because it really dude, you're here. I I did it and it actually is the movie that I was trying to make, which I could imagine a million different ways it could have gone wrong or like, you know, especially going to a festival.

我相信有很多人去到那里时会想，你知道，我可能没有足够的资源，或者我选错了演员，或者我并不是完全清楚自己在做什么。但你可以去到那里，心里明白这某种程度上是——

I'm sure there's so many people who go there and they're like, you know, I didn't necessarily have the resources or I miscast someone or I didn't totally know what I was doing and I didn't. But like, you could go there and just know in your heart that it's kind of

有点不太对劲。

It's a little off.

有点不太对劲，或者说只有你真正期望的一半。是的。真的希望它能成真。

It's a little off or it's like half of what you were really Yeah. Really hoping Happens

全部结束

end all up the

在屏幕上。然后你还得站在上面，感觉就像，拍这部电影一直是我的梦想。我想说，在这种情况下，它确实是我希望的样子。我认为这让我在面对这次曝光时更加坚定。实际上，我真的很喜欢它。

on the screen. And then you still kinda have to stand on it and it'd be like, it was always my dream to make this movie. I would say in this case, it really was what I was hoping it could be. And I think that's kind of what fortifies me against this time of being exposed. It's like, I actually do really like it.

而且当别人也喜欢时，我很高兴。或者当他们理解它时，那种感觉令人陶醉地验证了它的价值。

And I'm I'm glad when people do too. Or when they get it, it feels it's intoxicatingly validating.

嗯，我能想象。我的意思是，作为一位年轻编剧导演的成长弧线，令人兴奋的电影节首秀宣告了一个新声音的出现，所以你在情感上也要为 sophomore slump（第二部作品低谷）的风险做好准备。所以，当你刚从第一部的积极情绪中走出来时，嗯，我们还没必要谈那个。关于这部电影，你提到它可能像一部冷峻的芬奇式电影。你还提到，对我来说，一个非常明确的标志是《喜剧之王》。

Well, I can imagine. I mean, you're having in the arc of the young writer director, the exciting festival debut that announces a new voice is a so you you also have the perils of the sophomore slump to prepare yourself for emotionally too. So just as you crest out of the positivity of number one, well, we don't need to go there yet. With this movie, you mentioned it could be a Cold Fincher movie. You mentioned that it could be, you know, to me a very clear, like, signpost for the movie is king of comedy.

就像，这个世界我们以前见过，那种已经成名的人和拼命想接近他们的人。我的意思是，《彗星美人》显然是这种故事的一个版本。但这部电影感觉完全不同。你小时候是个影迷吗？你是否发现自己积累了很多参考？

Like, there there this is like a that's a world that we've seen portrayed before, the sort of, like, the established person and the person who's desperate to get close to them. I mean, All About Eve is a version of this, obviously. But the this feels completely different from that too. Did you were you a, like, a cinephile growing up? Did you find yourself accumulating a lot of references?

或者这更多是一种自然流动的创作行为？

Or is a lot of this a much more naturally flowing act of creation?

我不喜欢你说影迷这个词，我觉得在参考量和看片量上，我无法与很多导演相比。我和其他人一样喜欢电影，有空时会看，有些我非常喜欢。但我无法与上过这个播客的任何人较量，你知道。但也许这是一种优势。

I don't like when you say cinephile, I don't think I can compete with a lot of these directors when it comes to all the their references and what they've seen. I like movies like everyone else and I watch them when I have free time and there's some that I like a lot. But I wouldn't be able to go toe to toe with anyone who's been on this podcast, you know. But maybe that's an advantage.

嗯，这甚至不是比赛。你知道，这更像是哪些东西打动你，以及你年轻时看电影时哪些东西引起了你的共鸣。

Well, it's not even it's not a competition either. You know, it's more just like sort of what speaks to you and what are the things that resonated with you when you were watching movies as a younger person.

是的。我的意思是，我历来就喜欢那种非常紧凑、紧张、充满执念的故事。我觉得人们看这部电影时想到的参考作品，不一定是我当时想的那些，但我能理解。

Yeah. I mean, I do historically love a very taut, tense, obsessive story. I feel like the ones that people think of when they watch this movie are not necessarily the ones I was thinking about, but I get it.

你当时想的是哪些作品？

What were you thinking about?

我想得最多的是《爆裂鼓手》。

I was thinking the most about Whiplash.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有《夜行者》——这个大家可能会猜到——以及《几近成名》。当我开始写这个剧本时，我有点觉得前半部分会是《几近成名》的风格，后半部分会是《夜行者》的风格。但结果从一开始就变得相当黑暗。嗯。所以中间并没有一个巨大的基调转变。

Nightcrawler, which people would guess, and Almost Famous. And when I set out to write this, I was kind of like, the first half's gonna be Almost Famous, and then the second half's gonna be Nightcrawler. And then it was just kind of immediately dark from the beginning. Mhmm. So there wasn't some massive, like, tonal shift in the middle.

但这些算是主要的参考作品。然后我从《爆裂鼓手》中借鉴了一个谎言，或者说一些结构上的东西。知道这其实只是关于两个人以及他们之间的紧张关系如何演变，真的让事情简化了很多。这对我的写作帮助很大。

But those, like, those were kind of the primary references. And then it was a lie I stole from Whiplash. Or like some structural things. And it really simplified things to know that this was really just about two people and the tension between them and how that evolves. That helps me write it a lot.

嗯，当你说

Well, when you say

它从一开始就很黑暗，这是你开始拍摄时故事自带的DNA使然吗？还是你选的演员阵容造成的？不，我是——

it was dark from the beginning, was that a function of just the DNA of the story when you started filming? Was it the casting that you did that made that so? No. I'm I

我是说剧本。我觉得当我开始写的时候，我对它可能呈现的感觉有一些设想，但你能从一开始就感觉到有些不对劲。而我实际上更喜欢这样。这样更有趣，你在玩弄一种悬念：到底有多不对劲？它会变得多糟糕？

mean I mean the script. Like I think just when I set out to write it, I had these ideas of what it might feel like, but then you could just tell something's wrong at the top. And I liked that more actually. And it's more, you know, you're playing with the intrigue of, well, how how wrong is it? How wrong is it gonna get?

以及我喜欢谁？

And who do I like?

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

这让我想起了很多——不知道你是否关注这些电影——但很像1950年代的希区柯克电影，它们开场时向你介绍角色，你能看出某个角色心怀不轨，尽管他实际上还没做任何坏事。是的。而这部作品有着非常相似的紧张感。

It reminds me a lot of I don't know if you care about these movies, but a lot of the nineteen fifties Hitchcock movies, where they all start and you're being introduced to characters and you can tell one is kind of malevolent without actually doing anything bad. Yeah. And this has a very similar tension.

是的。你就能从他脸上看出来。看他的脖子，他那样转动脖子试图装作若无其事。没错。然后，在早期阶段，当我发出剧本后——再说一次，当时风险真的很低。

Yeah. You could just you see it in his face. You see in his neck, the way he's like moving his neck around trying to act like nothing's going on. Yeah. And then and then like, you know, in the early stages of after I had sent out the script, which again, it was so low stakes at the time.

就像完成它本身对我来说就是巨大的成就。我当时想，哇。在疫情期间，别人都在烤酸面包的时候，我写了一部新的长片剧本。我领先一步。当我们发出去时，我当时还是个非常稚嫩的电视剧编剧。

It was like the fact that I'd finished it, I felt like such a huge accomplishment to me. I was like, wow. I wrote a new feature length screenplay during COVID while everyone else was baking sourdough. I'm ahead of the game. And then when we sent it out, it was like and I was a very much baby TV writer at that time.

我几乎没做过什么，刚找了个经纪人。我记得和经纪人的第一次会面，我大致说，嗯，我可能有个想法…他们就直接说，去写吧，动手就行。我猜他们心里想的是：我们不确定这家伙会不会写。

I'd barely done anything and I had just gotten like a manager. And I think in in my meeting with my manager, the first one I was kind of like, yeah, I might have this idea for they're just like, yeah, go write it. Just do it. And I think in the back of their minds, were like, we don't know if this guy can write.

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

但就像这家伙想

But like this Guy one wants

在洛杉矶写剧本。是啊，欢迎加入。

to write a screenplay in LA. Yeah. Welcome to the party.

对，正是。当他们读了之后，反应是：哦，这或许真能成点事。我给越多的人看，他们越觉得这可能有点意思。几个月内，我们就把它发出去了。

Yeah. Exactly. And then when they read it, they were like, oh, this actually might be something. And then the more people I showed it to, they were like, this is maybe something. And within a few months, we sent it out.

等等，我刚才为什么要说这个？

And wait, why was I talking about this?

就是那种经历写作过程的感觉。就像，你你你当时觉得，这是一件风险很低的事情。

Just the feeling of of of going through the process of writing it. Like, you you you were like, it was a very low stakes endeavor.

是的。当时风险很低。后来它逐渐发展成，一方面是我进入电视行业的敲门砖，另一方面，既然有人告诉我这可以成为一件事，我就放不下它了。但在别人告诉我之前，我从未想过要亲自执导。

Yeah. Was it was low stakes. And it became it sort of bloomed into like a, my calling card to get TV work. And then b, it was like, now this now that someone has told me that this could be a thing, I couldn't let go of it. But I was I was never thinking I was gonna direct it until people told me that maybe I could.

为什么别人会这么告诉你？仅仅是因为你非常了解这个世界吗？

Why did people tell you that? Just because you knew the world really well?

呃，我也不知道为什么别人会这么说。但现在我明白了。因为如果交给另一位导演，很多微妙的细节，那些让作品显得真实的小地方，我觉得都会被淡化。这部电影很大程度上依赖于一个眼神或一句台词的语调。我认为正因为是我写的，我才真正懂得它应该是什么样子。

I well, I don't know why I was told that. But now I know. Because like you like in the hands of another director, it just so many of the subtleties, so many of the little details and stuff that would make it feel inauthentic, they would just get flattened, I think. And so much of this movie is just a look or the intonation of a line. And I think I really had a sense for what it was supposed to be because I had written it.

这是我开始执导时的主要优势：我知道每个场景、每句台词的核心是什么，并且能够表达出来。

And that was the primary advantage I had going into directing was I knew what every scene was about and what every line was about. And I could, know, express that.

那你有没有...我不知道你是否接受过导演方面的训练。显然，这既需要技术技能，也是创造性活动，涉及大量决策和责任，而且...

Was there any well, I don't know how if you had trained to direct anything. Obviously, it's a very technical skill as well as a creative act. And it's a it's a lot of decision making and a lot of responsibility and

训练？没有。我做的就是读了一些相关的书。就这样。

Trained? No. What I had done was read some books about it. Okay.

哪些书？我感觉...

And What books? I feel like

其实没有哪本书真正对我有帮助。是叫...猛犸象什么的？哦，是不是有本叫《论导演》的猛犸象书？是的。

none of them really even made a difference to me. What is it like Mammoth one? Oh. Isn't there some Mammoth one called like on directing? Yes.

是的。然后我，你知道，我读了一些关于其他职位的书。比如我读了一整本关于第一副导演的书，这真的非常非常有帮助。而且，你知道，我在片场待的时间很少，因为我是电视剧编剧。特别是在这个时代，除非你是节目统筹或高级制片人，否则你基本上不会被邀请去片场。

Yes. And then I, you know, I read books about other roles. Like I read a whole book about first AD ing, which actually was really, really helpful. And, you know, I'd spent barely any time on set because I'm a TV writer. Like, especially in this era, you don't really get invited to spend time on set unless you're the showrunner or high level producer.

所以在我拍摄这部电影之前，我在片场总共待了大概，我想说不知道，八天吧。

So I'd spent a grand total if I wanna say I don't know, eight days on a set before I shot this movie.

所以你能执导这部电影真是个奇迹般的故事。我知道。

So This is some miraculous story that you got to direct this movie. I know.

这是部分原因

This is part of

这就是我想聊的原因，因为我当时想，这人是谁啊？是啊。我知道。我不知道该成为谁，但这部电影如此自信，如此不寻常，你显然有这方面的天赋，你知道自己想讲的故事。但我有种感觉你会说，我不知道我怎么到这儿来的。

the reason I wanted to talk because I was like, the fuck is this person? Yeah. I know. I don't know who to be, but the movie is so assured and it's so unusual to be you just you have a knack for it, obviously, you knew the story you wanted to tell. But I I had a feeling you were gonna be like, I don't know how I got here.

嗯

Well

而且在你讲的故事里确实有那么一点这种感觉。我可以

And there is a little bit of that in the story that you're telling. I could

我可以事后告诉你什么奏效了。好吧。那就是导演工作很大程度上在于选角。我说的选角包括选演员和招聘。我对两者采用了相同的方法，就是我会根据对方对剧本的理解来评估这个人。

I could retroactively tell you what worked. Okay. And it's that so much of directing is casting. By casting, mean casting and hiring. And I use the same methodology for both, which is that I would evaluate the person kind of based on their understanding of the script.

这方法非常有效，我认为，无论是选角还是对于那些做技术性工作、而我并不太懂的人。所以同时，我知道所有我懂的东西。我知道我可以看着监视器说，嗯，这合理吗？这是我想要的效果吗？只对这一点有信心，而不去尝试——我有点像戴了眼罩，这样我就不会被其他许多你可能会在意的事情所困扰。

And that worked really well, think, for casting and for, you know, anyone who did something technical that I really didn't understand that well. So at the same time, like, I knew all the things that I knew. And I knew I could look at the monitor and say, well, does this make sense? Is this what I was going for? And to be only assured in that and not not try to I had like horse binders in a way, in that I couldn't get tripped up by so many of the other things that you can really care about.

你知道，大多数时候我都不知道我们在相机上装的是什么镜头。就算知道，我也不确定那信息是否会对我有帮助。

There was, you know, most of the time I didn't know what lens we were putting on the camera. If I did, I don't know if that would have helped me, that information.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？但我能告诉你的是，在开始拍摄清单之前，我和我的摄影指导花了几个月时间讨论每个场景的核心内容。而且我觉得我能很好地判断别人是否清楚自己在说什么。这非常重要，因为作为首次执导长片的导演，无论如何你都不会像他们那样了解每个人的工作。所以你需要有一种直觉——你对这个人谈论自己专业领域的可信度判断力如何？

You know? But what I can tell you is that I spent months with my DP talking through what every scene was about before we even started shot listing. And I think I have a good sense of whether someone else knows what they're talking about. And that's very important because you I mean, as a first time feature director, no matter what, you're not gonna know everyone's job as well as they do. So if you have a sense of their like, what's your bullshit meter on this person talking about their thing?

我能做到这一点。

I can do that.

让这部电影如此成功的另一个关键是，音乐世界感觉得非常真实。要为一个世界创作原创音乐，并让一个流行歌星显得可信，这是个非常独特的挑战。是的。这是我见过最令人印象深刻的例子之一。你能谈谈你是如何为阿奇的角色设计音乐的？你希望它成为什么样子的？等等这些问题。

The one thing that also really makes this movie so successful is that the world of the music feels incredibly real. It's like a very unique challenge to try to make original music that is inside a world and make a pop star believable. Yeah. This is one of the most impressive examples of it I've ever seen. Can you just talk about how you worked out the music for Archie's character and what you wanted that to be and so on and so forth?

是的。我的意思是，这其中很大一部分再次依赖于比我更懂行的人。我对他属于哪种类型的艺术家有一个概念。

Yeah. I mean, so much of it, again, was leaning on people who knew better than me. I had an idea of what type of artist he was.

在后弗兰克·奥申（Frank Ocean）时代，你会如何描述那种类型的艺术家？像是，是不是？也许它是

How would you describe that type of artist in like a post Frank Ocean world? Like, is that? Maybe it's

像是后弗兰克·奥申时代。

like post Frank Ocean world.

好吧。我试图弄清楚它到底是什么——我以前是个乐评人。所以是的。我只是在思考，我甚至会怎么描述……任何归类都太简化了。比如R&B就太简化了。

Okay. I was trying to figure out like what it I used to be a music critic. And so Yeah. I I'm just trying to think of like what I would even how I would even describe everything is too reductive. Like R and B is too reductive.

是的。流行也太简化了。DIY流行，后弗兰克… 是的。而我希望它在某种程度上被这种模糊性所掩盖。这样你就不能确切地说，哦，这就是这个。

Yeah. Pop is too reductive. DIY pop post Franco Yeah. And I wanted it to be in a way disguised by that. So you couldn't say exactly like, oh, this is this.

这并非完全基于某一个特定的艺术家，你知道。我认为它是一种融合，是在整个过程中我逐渐发现的东西，一旦我们做到了，我如释重负。因为就像你说的，如果我不相信那个角色，这一点很容易让你出戏。而其中很大一部分，一旦你选定了演员，画面就变得清晰了。画面变得… 你知道，也许我原本打算朝这个方向走。

This is based on this artist so exclusively, you know. I think it's an amalgam and it was something that I was able to find throughout the process that once we did, I was so relieved. Because like you're saying, like, that's the thing that you can can take you out of the movie so easily if I just don't buy that character. And so much of that, the picture becomes clear once you have cast. The picture become you know, maybe I was gonna go this way with it.