最终最佳影片实力排名及与奥顿·杜拉尔德·阿卡波对《罪人》的再度审视！

人们对这部作品充满热情。

There is a lot of enthusiasm for this.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

《科学怪人》当然获得了几项奖项，我们认为它会在奥斯卡奖上亮相，包括美术设计、化妆与发型、服装设计。

Couple awards for Frankenstein, of course, which we think we'll see at the Academy Awards, production design, makeup and hair, costume design.

音效方面有一项吗？

F one for sound?

是的。

Yeah.

轰隆轰隆。

Vroom vroom.

有道理。

Makes sense.

能看出来。

Could see that.

特效方面，《阿凡达：火与灰》。

Special visual effects, Avatar Fire and Ash.

大吉姆。

Big Jim.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我们等会儿进入最佳影片实力排名时再继续聊剩下的内容。

We'll save the rest of our conversation when we get into our best picture power rankings.

我们来谈谈一部新上映的电影。

Let's talk about a new release.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这部电影有点被忽视了，之所以被忽视，是因为它被仓促上映。

It kind of flew under the radar, and it flew under the radar because it got dumped.

有趣的是，它被仓促上映了。

Fascinatingly dumped.

我们可以聊聊它为什么会被仓促上映。

We can talk about why it's been dumped.

我觉得你和我对这部电影的看法差不多。

I think you and I kinda landed in the same place with this movie.

这部电影叫《如何大赚一笔》。

So the movie is How to Make a Killing.

这是约翰·帕特森·福特的新作，他几年前自编自导了《艾米丽》这部电影，你我都挺喜欢的。

It's the new film from John Patton Ford, who wrote and directed a movie a few years ago called Emily the Criminal, which you and I both enjoyed.

那部电影的主演是谁？

Who is the star of that movie?

为什么会这样？

Why is it?

奥布瑞·普拉扎。

Aubrey Plaza.

奥布瑞·普拉扎。

Aubrey Plaza.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我认为泰奥·罗西的配角表现也非常出色。

And then Theo Rossi, I believe, was the supporting performance that we'd love.

我觉得我们曾把泰奥·罗西当作一个另类的首选推荐。

He is I think we gave a, like, a alternative big pick to Theo Rossi.

是的。

We did.

这部新电影某种程度上是对1949年英国电影《谋杀与王冠》的软性改编或灵感借鉴，那部电影是一部经典的犯罪喜剧，由亚历克·吉尼斯主演，而它本身又源自1907年的小说《一个罪犯的自传》。

This new movie is a kind of soft adaptation adaptation or or inspiration inspiration off off of of the the 1949 British film Kind Hearts and Coronets, which is kind of a caper comedy classic starring Alec Guinness, which is also inspired by a nineteen o seven novel called The Autobiography of a Criminal.

这部新电影当然由格伦·鲍威尔、玛格丽特·夸利、杰西卡·亨维克、比尔·坎普、扎克·伍兹、托弗·格雷斯、埃德·哈里斯等实力派演员主演，阵容非常出色。

This new new movie, of course, stars our guy, Glenn Powell, Margaret Qualley, Jessica Henwick, Bill Camp, Zach Woods, Topher Grace, Ed Harris, really good cast.

这是一部2024年的电影，剧情如下。

It's an a '24 movie, and the premise is as follows.

贝克特·雷德费洛被富裕的家庭在出生时抛弃，他为了夺回自己的继承权不惜一切代价，无论有多少亲戚挡路。

Disowned at birth by his wealthy family, Beckett Redfellow, great name, will stop at nothing to reclaim his inheritance no matter how many relatives stand in his way.

所以没多少人看过这部电影。

So not a lot of people saw this movie.

尽管它被列为广泛上映，却只在不到2000家影院上映。

It opened in fewer than 2,000 theaters despite its wide release status.

你觉得《如何赚大钱》怎么样？

What did you think of How to Make a Killing?

听我说。

Listen.

我在2016年就猜中了。

I called my shot in 2016.

2018年我又猜中了一次。

Called it again in 2018.

我喜欢看格伦·鲍威尔的电影。

I like watching Glenn Powell.

我真的喜欢。

I really I do.

看着他努力寻找适合自己的角色，挺有意思的。

And it's been interesting to watch him try to find the right roles for him.

我觉得这部片子比他最近的一些选择更贴近，特别是《跑步者》。

And I think that this one is closer than some recent choices, specifically the Running Man.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

这部电影和它有不少相似之处。

What in which it has a fair amount in common.

没错。

Yep.

虽然可能还不完全到位，但他还是挺有看头的。

And maybe not a 100% there, but he's watchable.

尽管这部电影的处境不利，我依然支持他，因为这部电影必须成功。

I was rooting for him despite the circumstances of the film, which the film needs to succeed.

然后我真的很喜欢约翰·帕特森·福特汉姆。

And then I I really like John Patton Fordham.

我认为他有一种独特的才能，能把别人可能轻视为‘打倒富人’类型的电影拍得出色。

I think he has a real knack for what you could dismiss as like another eat the rich movie.

而且，你知道，从表面上看

And, you know, top line

确实带有一些这种元素。

Has some of that element.

是的。

Yeah.

就像很多富人会遭到创意性的谋杀。

Like many rich people get creatively murdered.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但观察得更加具体。

But is way more specifically observed.

我认为他真正理解了角色与那个世界之间的距离，以及他们感受到的焦虑和愤怒，同时他还能以幽默的方式看待这些极其富有的人，即使他令人信服地描绘了他们正在毁掉整个社会和我们所有的认知。

I think he really understands the distance from that world that his characters feel and the anxiety and the anger and, can also and also has a sense of humor about the very rich people even as he convincingly portrays that they are ruining like society at large and also all of our insights.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我觉得它很奇怪但有效，我喜欢它。

So I I thought it was strange and worked, and I and I liked it.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得它相当不错。

I think it's pretty good.

我先说说缺点。

I'll start with the negatives.

是的。

Yeah.

这部电影在基调上存在一种内在的冲突，有点难以把握，因为它既是一部关于谋杀的电影，又是一部闹剧，同时又像是一部深刻反映阶级问题的故事。

There's an inherent tonal clash that is a little hard to navigate because it is a movie about murder, and it is also a farce, but also feels like a kind of deeply felt story about class.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有时候你会想，我到底该多认真地看待这部片子？

There are times when you're like, how seriously am I supposed to be taking this?

比如，一部既包含扎克·伍兹这个角色，又……

Like, a movie that features both the Zach Woods character Yeah.

还有影片结尾那种纯粹的悲惨与痛苦。

And also the, like, absolute misery tragedy near the end of the film.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有些地方显得有点生硬，你能感觉到他其实并没有完全掌控好这部作品的基调。

There it's a little bit, like, lump in in places, and you can tell that they he like, he didn't really totally get his arms around the tone of the material.

尽管如此，我觉得这部电影看起来还是很顺畅的。

That being said, I thought I thought it went down very easy.

是的

Yeah.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

对我来说，只是和这部电影待在一起就非常愉快，我对它收到的评价褒贬不一感到有点惊讶，因为这又是那种我希望每年能有25部这样的电影的例子。

It's very enjoyable to just hang out with this movie for me, and I've been a little surprised by the mixedness response to it because it is another example of a more like, I just want like 25 of these a year.

是的

Yeah.

而且她的角色演得很好。

And it's good star part.

我觉得玛格丽特·夸利在电影中有点演过头了，这在一定程度上拖累了影片。

I think Margaret Qualley is maybe overdoing it a touch in the movie, and that kinda weighs it down a little bit.

但那也正是她被选中去做的角色，是的。

But that is also what she is cast to do Yeah.

在电影里。

In the movie.

所以我尽量不因此特别怪她。

So I try not to hold it against her specifically.

但你知道的

But, you know

我喜欢她，但她的表演时好时坏。

I like her, but she's really hit or miss as a performer.

她总是这样，哦，玛格丽特·夸利来了，又在演她那一套了。

And it's she is just always, oh, Margaret Qualley's here doing Margaret Qualley stuff.

这可能会有点分散注意力。

It can be a bit distracting

在《美丽》这样的电影里。

in a movie like beautiful, this.

而且你知道，他们让她穿着全身非常俗气的香奈儿服装，像是老款香奈儿，不是新款马修·香奈儿。

And it you know, they have her in just abs like, head to toe very tacky Chanel, like old Chanel, not new Matthew Chanel.

而且

And

她那种完全不懂风格的年代。

she Real clueless style era.

但这是非常有趣且有意为之的，她和他们之间确实有某种关系。

But it is very funny and purposeful, and she, like, has relationship with them.

所以我认为大部分都是真实且有意为之的。

So I do think most of it is, like, real and purposeful.

明白。

Knowing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以她在那里就是为了做这个。

So that's what she's there to do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且它用了一些玛格丽特·夸利的风格，但我同意。

And it uses some of the Margaret Qualleyness, but I I agree.

我并没有觉得它特别像一场马戏表演。

I wasn't particularly it it felt like a sideshow.

是的。

Yeah.

这很遗憾，因为电影开始转向她的角色，我认为这就是这部电影被批评的原因。

I it's too bad because the movie kind of starts to turn on her character and I that I think that's why the movie's getting dinged.

在前一个小时里，我一直想，为什么这部电影会被抛弃？

Through the first hour, I was like, why is this movie being dumped?

是的。

Yeah.

我当时觉得，这电影真的很不错。

I was like, this is very good.

同意。

Agreed.

而且我觉得你说得对，这部电影更接近《猎人》中的格伦·鲍威尔。

And it's a I agree with you that it is a much closer it's closer to Hitman Glenn Powell.

你知道，他希望自己的装扮能灵活一点，比如怎么隐藏身份之类的。

You know, where it's like he wants to be able to be a little fungible with his, like, you know, his costumes and how he hides.

不会穿全套万圣节服装，但确实让他戴了一阵子针织帽。

Doesn't get full full Halloween costumes, but they do let him wear a beanie for a while.

是的。

Yeah.

即使在走路时，他也穿着飞行员夹克，我当时就想，这太普通了。

Even while walking He's like an aviator suit with I was like, a plain what

还一直戴着那顶针织帽。

with this beanie that you keep wearing.

然后我就想，好吧。

And then I was like, alright.

这是因为格伦真的很想打扮一下。

It's because Glenn really wants a He wants a dress up.

没关系。

It's okay.

我觉得他

I think he's

非常有魅力，而且基本上表达了这件事的严肃性。

pretty charming and I think more or less expresses the gravity of it.

你觉得那个他向铁窗后的神父忏悔的叙事框架怎么样？

How did you feel about the framing device where he's sort of the confessional to the priest behind bars?

我的意思是，前两分钟真是个‘糟了’。

I mean, the first two minutes is a real uh-oh.

我们是在一起录这个的。

This is we're we're taping this together.

是的。

Yeah.

带着

With

旁白。

the Voice over.

手法。

Device.

而且，这个框架设定是他被关在死囚牢房里。

And also and like the framing device is that he's on death row.

我只是，你知道的，我不支持死刑。

And I just, you know, I don't believe in the death penalty.

我当时就是生气。

I was I was just mad.

我当时就想，哎呀，我们得做这个。

I was like, oh, we gotta do this.

但again，它推进得非常流畅，是一个非常实用的框架手法。

But it again, it goes down so smooth, and it is like a very functional framing device.

是的。

Yep.

我觉得格伦·鲍威尔的旁白表现得很好。

And I think like Glenn Powell narrates the it's a good voice over performance.

确实如此。

It is.

到了某个时刻，你就不再问问题了。

And so at some point, you just stop asking questions.

你就会说，好吧。

You're like, sure.

我就跟着这个剧情走吧。

Like, I'll go along with this.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

而且我觉得它并没有那种用胶带粘起来的感觉。

And and I don't it didn't feel that Scotch tapey.

我认为它在某种程度上起到了调和整体基调的作用，至少在我看到玛格丽特·夸利饰演的角色必须做她那些事之前，都是成立的。

I think it was doing a little bit of work pulling the tone together in a way that held for me, I think, until Margaret Qualley's character has to really do whatever she's doing.

是的

Yeah.

我的朋友克里斯·罗森在Letterbox上评论了这部电影，他说这是一部九月的电影。

My friend Chris Rosen reviewed the movie on Letterbox, and he was like, this is a September movie.

这可不是二月的电影。

This isn't a February movie.

我觉得这个观点很有见地，也就是说，它不属于那种颁奖季电影。

And I thought that was a good insight where like, there is a certain kind of like it's not an awards film.

它也不是一部大片。

It's not a blockbuster.

它更像是一部轻松有趣的角色驱动作品。

It's got it's just kind of like a character piece that is fun to hang out with.

我能理解为什么这部电影被搁置了，也许格伦对成片并不满意，但我觉得它相当不错。

And the movie I can see why the movie was kind of set aside, maybe I'm sure maybe Glenn is not thrilled with how it turned out or whatever, but I I think it's pretty solid.

它属于那种六分或七分的电影。

And it's in that, like, it's a six or a seven.

有时候六分或七分也挺好的。

And sometimes a six or a seven is a good time.

是的。

Yeah.

我很喜欢这部电影。

And I like it a lot.

我觉得扎克·伍兹太搞笑了。

I think Zach Woods is hilarious.

他的角色确实是。

His character is Yeah.

就像那种我们肯定在布鲁克林认识的富二代，自以为是艺术家，‘你爸是干什么的？’

So Like, that's a dude I'm sure we knew in Brooklyn, which is like a nepo kid who thinks he's an artist Oh, what's your dad?

完全空荡荡的塑料袋。

Absolutely empty plastic bag.

他根本没什么想法。

Like, he has no ideas.

我真的很喜欢他。

I really enjoyed him.

我之前不知道另一个表亲是裘德·洛的儿子。

I didn't know that the other the other cousin was was Jude Law's son.

是的。

Yeah.

拉夫

Raph

洛。

Law.

拉夫是拉弗蒂的缩写吗？

Is Raph short for Rafferty?

拉斐尔？

Raphael?

我觉得是。

I think so.

拉弗蒂？

Rafferty?

是的。

Yes.

拉弗蒂。

Rafferty.

我们再确认一下。

Let's double double check this.

拉弗蒂？

Rafferty?

拉弗蒂，拉夫。

Rafferty Raff.

杰利科·弗罗斯特·劳是那个杰利科·弗罗斯特·劳吗？

Jellico Frost Law is the Jellico Frost Law?

什么

What

世界上？

in the world?

朱德·劳和莎迪·弗罗斯特的孩子。

Jude Law and Sadie Frost kid.

我不知道你还期待什么。

I don't know what else you expect.

我们回到前面。

Let's go back.

如果朱德·劳和莎迪·弗罗斯特要生个孩子，就给他取名叫拉弗蒂·杰利科·弗罗斯特·劳。

If Jude Law and Sadie Frost are gonna have a kid, name him Rafferty Jellico Frost Law.

拉弗蒂·拉夫·杰利科·弗罗斯特·劳。

Rafferty Raff Jellico Frost Law.

是的。

Yes.

那是美国最差的律师事务所。

That is the worst law firm in America.

好的。

Okay.

我以为我以前从没见过他，我真的不记得了。

I thought he was I never I don't think I'd seen him before.

我觉得他扮演的那个炒股坏小子挺有趣的，他来到我

I think he was he was amusing as the stock trading bad boy who comes to a I was

当出现直升机特技时，我特别兴奋。

excited when there was a helicopter, like, stunt esque.

不是那种完整的特技，但我心想，哇，你们居然弄了架直升机。

Not like a full stunt, but I was like, wow, you guys got a helicopter.

干得不错。

Good job on you.

这部电影有一定的规模。

The movie has some scale.

这可不是一部小制作的电影。

It's not a small movie.

我觉得杰西卡·亨维克扮演的角色并不是真实人物。

I think who was Jessica Henwick's character, not a real person.

真希望多花点时间去塑造这个人物的形象。

Wish there was a little bit more time spent shaping who that person was

对。

Right.

除了像个非常善良的小学老师之外

Aside from being like a very kind kindergarten teacher

对。

Right.

或者像个高中英语老师。

Or like a high school English teacher.

什么

What

她是谁？

is she?

比如，她确实有空间可以表现，因为她本应对扎克·伍兹的角色感到厌恶，却又被格伦·鲍威尔的角色吸引。

Like and there is some there is some room there because she's supposed to be sort of, you know, disgusted by the Zach Woods character, and she's drawn to Glenn Powell's character.

但为什么她一开始会和扎克·伍兹约会呢？对吧。

But why was she dating Zach Woods in the first Right.

然后她就一直跟着格伦·鲍威尔的角色，就这样继续下去了。

And then she just keeps going along with Glenn Powell's, like, you know, moving on.

所以这里确实有一些动机和逻辑值得质疑，我也同意这部分并没有真正处理好。

So there is there is some motivation and stuff to question there, and I agree it doesn't really

这部分确实不太成立。

That that part doesn't really work.

她有点像是观众的替身，但又不算真正意义上的。

She's sort of an audience surrogate, but not really.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这部电影很快就会被遗忘，也许人们等到它上线 HBO Max 的时候才会发现它。

I'm this movie is gonna be forgotten pretty quickly, and maybe people will discover it when this goes to HBO Max.

但是

But

我觉得这是一部很经典的电影

I thought it was a good old time

这些电影。

with the movies.

正如我之前对克里斯·莱恩提到的

And as I mentioned to Chris Ryan

嗯。

Mhmm.

又一部以我家乡为背景的流行文化作品。

Another in a long line of pop culture artifacts that are set basically in my hometown.

嗯。

Mhmm.

《成长的烦恼》或《奇妙年代》的粉丝可能知道，这些作品或多或少都受到亨廷顿青少年生活的启发，而这部电影最初的名字就叫《亨廷顿》。

And fans of the Wonder Years or Growing Pains might know that those those are more or less inspired by youth in Huntington, and this is a movie that was originally called Huntington.

这个周末我和我姐姐聊了这件事，我就问她，你觉得哈特福德住着多少个亿万富翁？

And I was talking to my sister about it this weekend, and I was like, how many billionaires do you think lived in Huntington?

她一开始说：哦，我肯定有很多。

And she start and she was like, oh, I'm sure like a bunch.

我当时就说：在我们家乡？

And I was like, in in our hometown?

然后她开始委婉地改口说：哦，不是的。

And then she started kind of finessing it with like, oh, no.

当你去北部海岸的科尔德斯普林哈伯时，你知道的，我住在全美最中产阶级的小镇。

When you go to the coast up north in Cold Spring Harbor and, you know, I lived in the most middle class town in America.

哈特福德被提到了。

Huntington is name checked.

他们确实住在哈特福德。

It is they live in Huntington.

是的。

Yes.

而且它被描绘成一座宏伟的庄园。

And it is a grand estate portrayed.

是的。

Yes.

他们用作内部场景的那栋房子，我觉得很不错。

That that The house they used for the interior, I liked, by way.

我只是想说一下。

Just wanna say.

很好。

Good.

就像那个对峙庄园。

Like the Confrontation Mansion.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

很棒的东西。

Good stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

那很酷。

That was cool.

我的意思是，那栋房子本身并没有，但亨廷顿附近有一座大吉卡城堡，那里举办过很多活动。

I mean, that house just did not there's Ojikka Castle near Huntington, which is a place where that was where many events were held.

好的。

Okay.

但我认识的大多数参加的人，都是因为在那里当服务员才去的。

But most of the people that I knew who attended attended because they worked as servers at Ojikka Castle.

我刚搜了一下Ojikka城堡的图片，这并不是实际使用的外观。

I've just Google imaged Ojikka Castle, and this is not the exterior used.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

好的。

Okay.

看起来挺漂亮的。

Looks it looks nice.

当然。

Sure.

我只是想问问约翰·帕顿·福特，为什么是亨廷顿？

I I just I'm like, I wanna ask John Patton Ford, like, why Huntington?

这个镇子有什么特别的？我猜他以前去过那里一次？

What was it about this town when did I presume he went there once?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这是个好名字。

It's a good name.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后他们就没用它。

And then then they didn't use it.

但我是说，它就像那个镇子本身后来

Well but I mean, but it's just like the town itself after

一个伦敦小镇。

a London town.

你知道吗？

You know?

当然。

Sure.

但它本身并没有传达出某种意境。

But it didn't give the name itself, like, evokes something.

是的。

Yeah.

我也来自亨廷顿站，那是个很普通的地区。

I was from Huntington Station too, which is really downmarket.

好的。

Okay.

不幸的是，我们家并不住在亨廷顿的高档区域。

We were really not from the nice part of Huntington, unfortunately.

我去那里访问的时候度过了愉快的时光。

It was I had a lovely time when I visited.

你确实去过。

You did go.

你去过亨廷顿站。

You've been to Huntington Station.

工厂。

Factory.

你确实去过。

You did go

去了芝士蛋糕工厂。

to the Cheesecake Factory.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

是的。

Yes.

所以我告诉你吧。

So I'll tell you what.

那家芝士蛋糕工厂很不错。

That was a good Cheesecake Factory.

我得说一句。

I gotta I gotta say.

是的

Yeah.

向亨廷顿致敬。

Shout out to Huntington.

说实话，我并没有那么想念它。

I I don't really miss it that much, to be honest with you.

好的。

Alright.

我们回到《罪人》吧。

Let's circle to Sinners.

是的

Yeah.

现在，你还没看过，而我觉得我已经看了这部电影五遍了，你自从去年四月在电影院看过之后就没再看过。

Now, you have not I've I think I've watched this movie five times, and you you have not seen it since you saw it in movie theaters last April.

意思是，我看过一些片段，因为这部电影在数字平台上线后我看过一部分。

Is I that mean, I've seen scenes from it in parts of it because it has started as it was released on digital.

你知道，它已经渗透到文化中了。

You know, it's just permeating the culture.

而且你会慢慢跟上这些内容。

And and you catch up to stuff a bit.

当某些镜头出现时，我觉得挺有意思的。

And and it was interesting certain shots when they showed up.

但在我的重看过程中，我心想，哦，莱奥在对着镜头指指点点，因为我太熟悉他们每个人了。

But in my rewatch, I was like, oh, you know, Leo pointing at the camera because I am so familiar with them individually.

但没错，我确实回去看了。

But, no, but I did go back.

我在电影院看过。

I saw it in theaters.

我看了重映版。

I saw a rerelease.

好的。

Okay.

是IMAX版本吗？

Was it IMAX?

是还是只是普通的？

Was or was it just a regular

不是。

No.

只是普通的。

It was just was a regular

普通放映。

Regular release.

特别放映。

Special screening.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，我觉得在未来几周里，我们会重新回顾几部获得最佳影片提名的电影。

So, I mean, I think, you know, over the next few weeks, we're we'll, like, revisit a couple of the movies that are nominated for best picture.

我觉得我们很快也会聊聊纪录片类的提名作品，但现在是个好时机，可以回头看看这部电影，因为刚上映时我们做了两期特别节目，之后在颁奖季也一直讨论过它，但还没从批评的角度深入分析过。

I think we'll talk about the Doc nominees pretty soon as well, but this feels like a good time to go back to this movie because we did two big episodes about it right when it came out, and then we've talked about it through the awards race, but not kind of through any critical perspective.

我其实大约十天前刚重看了一遍，因为我妻子说：我们来看这部吧。

I actually just rewatched it about ten days ago because my wife was like, let's watch this.

我想看看这部片子。

I wanna see it.

我正打算把所有最佳影片提名作品都看完，而她没机会在影院看，所以我只好在家看。

I'm trying I'm knocking off all the Best Picture contenders, and she didn't get a chance to see it in movie theaters, so I got to watch it at home.

所以，距离电影上映差不多一年了，跟我分享一下你的感想吧。

So, you know, with almost a year out, tell me some of your reflections.

你对这部电影怎么看？

What did you make of the movie?

尤其是考虑到它现在已经被赋予了某种更高的历史地位。

And and especially in light of it having this kind of elevated historical status now.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这挺有意思的。

Well, it was interesting.

我记得我们和范的那场对话。

I remember I remember our conversation with Van.

我们当时聊到这部电影塞进了多少内容，这确实没错，也是我第二次看时最突出的感受。

And we were talking about how much is stuffed into this movie, which is true and is what really stuck out to me the second time.

想想看，就像我们第一次看《一场战役》时，我觉得：哦，这真搞笑。

Think, you know, much in the way that when we watched one battle, the first time I was like, oh, this is really funny.

第二次看时，我却觉得：哦，这太感人了。

And the second time I was like, oh, this is so emotional.

我第一次看这部电影时，心想：哇。

The first time I watched the movie, I was like, oh, wow.

这简直是一部非常高级、极其聪明、几乎打破类型界限的吸血鬼电影。

This is like a really, really elevated, like really smart, like almost like genre breaking vampire movie.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但确实，电影中有一个重要的核心场景，涉及大量吸血鬼。

But it is, you know, there is a big centerpiece with like a lot of vampires.

是的。

Yep.

第二次看的时候，我觉得吸血鬼根本无关紧要。

And the second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the vampires don't matter at all.

我的意思是，他们确实有关。

I mean, and they and they do.

他们确实有关。

And they do.

还有一个非常棒的设定，即电影中的吸血鬼象征着对艺术、尤其是黑人艺术的掌控，以及这部电影本身的类型，还有观众想要看到的电影类型。

And there is it is a very cool idea that the vampires represent in the movie about ownership of art and black art specifically and and, also the type of movie that is being made and the type of movie that people you know, audiences wanna see.

所以他们确实重要，而且，显然这个场景也花了大量时间和精力，拍摄了一部非常血腥的吸血鬼电影。

So they do matter and also like the set piece, obviously, like, they they spend a lot of time and effort shooting like a very gnarly vampire movie.

但我发现其中一些只是个人偏好。

But I found some of it is just personal preference.

我的注意力几乎有点涣散了，是的。

My my attention was almost waning a little Mhmm.

因为他们一直不停地互相争斗。

As they just they they kept jumping on each other.

而当电影真正进入高潮——那个烟雾角色出现时，我感到非常惊讶和兴奋，电影一下子又活了过来。

And I was really surprised and and excited at how alive the movie came again at the second, the actual climax, which is the smoke character

是的。

Mhmm.

对抗那个族群。

Against the clan.

是的。

Mhmm.

那种拍摄方式令人悲伤又激动，显然结尾那些情感化的梦境片段也是如此。

And the way that's shot, and and it is it's sad and exciting and obviously like the emotional like dream stuff at the end.

当你意识到时，哦，这在第一幕就已经预示了。

And as you realize, oh, this it was foretold in the first scene Mhmm.

还有。

Also.

所以。

So

他确实这么做了。

Which he does.

他在《黑豹》里也是这么做的。

He does that in Black Panther too.

你知道，他在电影早期就使用了这种富有表现力的叙事片段，仿佛在说：这就是你即将看到的电影。

You know, he uses these kind of illustrate illustrative narrative, moments early in the movie that's kind of like, here's the movie you're about to get.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，坐在那里，突然意识到‘哦，不’，这感觉真的很有趣。

So it was it was interesting just to to be sitting there and realize, oh, no.

这就是这部电影。

This is the movie.

这就是故事的走向。

And this is where it's going.

这就是我真正会获得宣泄的地方，嗯。

And this is this is where I'm actually gonna get catharsis Mhmm.

而许多想法或许不会得到彻底解决，但至少会达到一个高潮。

And where a lot of the ideas are gonna maybe not meet resolution, but at least, kinda come to a head.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后，你知道， famously 在这个时候，我根本不知道还有片尾彩蛋。

And then, you know, famously at this point, I didn't know there was a post credit sequence.

所以第一次看的时候，我没看到那个彩蛋。

So the first time I saw it, I I didn't see it.

我注意到，现在的片尾彩蛋是在片尾字幕开始前就出现了，嗯。

And I noticed that the ending then the post credit sequence now started before the credits Mhmm.

当我看到重映版时。

When I saw it in rerelease.

但你在重映版中看到它之前，根本没有字幕吗？

But there were no credits at all when you saw it in rerelease before it started?

因为我觉得当时可能有‘导演：瑞恩·库格勒’之类的字幕，大概就那么一两个。

Because I think that there was like a directed by Ryan Coogler credit, like maybe like a couple of credits.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

然后直接进入了片尾彩蛋。

And then it went to the post credit.

有什么内容吗？

Was there anything?

在你看到之前是巴迪·盖伊

They Buddy Guy before you hit

弹吉他。

Playing guitar.

是的。

Yeah.

它几乎直接从米尔斯·卡顿饰演的角色开车带着吉他行驶在路上，转到了布迪·盖伊。

It almost goes straight from, like, Miles Caton's character from Sammy driving with the guitar along in the road Mhmm.

然后直接切到布迪·盖伊。

And it goes straight to Buddy Guy.

我不记得蓝光版里他们是怎么处理的。

I can't remember how they how they do it on the on the Blu ray release.

而且你还会多演奏一会儿，这样就更清楚地表明，还有更多事情正在发生。

And they and you, like, play a little more, and it's just it's made a lot clearer that, more is happening.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你得留下来看完。

And you need to stay and watch.

我明白为什么，因为那才是电影真正的结尾。

And I understand why because that's the actual end of the movie.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

关于这一点，我有一些问题想问你。

And I have some questions for you about that.

我们得

We have to

比如，部落对决的情节，以及Smoke见到Annie以及他的孩子，这些都为这个角色提供了结局。

Things in, you know, in the way that the the the showdown with the clan and then smoke seeing Annie and the, you know, the his his baby is a resolution for that character.

在片尾字幕前，你确实为Sammy获得了一些结局，但这实际上是Sammy和Stack两人的最终结局。

You get some sort of resolution for Sammy before the credit sequence, but it's really the ending for both Sammy and and Stack.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有Mary这个角色。

And the Mary character.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还是不是？

And Or is it?

还是不是？

Or is it?

而且，你知道，这是个好结局吗？

And well, you know, is it a happy ending?

谁最开心？

Who is the happiest?

也就是说，从这些结局中你该领悟到什么，这是个有趣的问题。

Like, what are you supposed to take away from the from these resolutions is is an interesting question.

我的意思是，我真正希望在最后那段剧情中看到什么，也许这只是漫威思维，我想稍微聊聊漫威和库布里克，以及它们如何与这部电影产生交集。

I mean, what I really want out of that final stretch, and maybe this is just Marvel brain, and I wanna talk a little bit about Marvel and Kubler and how that that intersects with this movie.

但我非常乐意看一部1990年代的《Stack和Mary》吸血鬼电影，就像《Demon Knight》那种风格，一部属于我青春期时期的黑色恐怖片，因为那时候我超爱恐怖片。

But I would very happily watch the 1990, you know, Stack and Mary vampire movie that's like circa Demon Knight or something, like a a a black horror movie in a in from the time of my adolescence because I loved horror movies at that time.

对。

Right.

我觉得库格勒拍这样的电影会很棒，你就想想他当时能用的音乐。

I think Kugler would be awesome at making a movie with, like you just think about the music that he could use at that time.

你可以想象一下，他能融入的场景设计和美术设计。

You'd look about, like, think about, like, the set design, the production design he could incorporate.

这部电影确实有一点点可能性，还可以再拍一章，是的。

It does have a little bit of the, like, there could be another chapter of this movie too Yes.

考虑到它如此成功，你完全能看到这样的续集。

Which given how successful it's been, you could see it.

而且它做了铺垫，但并不让人反感。

And it it sets it up, but not in an obnoxious way.

不是那种‘下回请看《罪人》’的感觉。

Not like next time on Sinners.

而是说，这故事是开放的。

It's like, this is open.

斯塔克仍然是个吸血鬼。

Stack is still a vampire.

玛丽仍然是个吸血鬼。

Mary is still a vampire.

我们可以继续拍下去，但其实没必要。

We can do more, We don't have to.

对。

Right.

你可以对萨米的结局感到满意。

And you can be happy with the end of Sammy.

我觉得，这种开放性也是这部电影的另一个成就，因为萨米在他们离开时说了一些话，他说：‘在所有人开始死去之前，那是我生命中最美好的一天。’

And I think and also the openness is like another accomplishment of the film because I what Sammy says to them as they leave and he was like he says something like until everyone started dying, that was the best day of my life.

他几乎是带着渴望看着面前的吸血鬼。

And he's almost looking at the vampires before him with longing.

然后他们一起离开了。

And they go off together.

是的。

Yes.

所以，你又会想，我到底该支持哪个结局呢？

And so again, you're like, so which outcome was I supposed to be rooting for?

这里的幸福结局到底是什么？

Who is what is the the happy ending here?

我们到底该期待什么？

Like, what are we we supposed to want?

这真的很棒。

Which is like really cool.

我的意思是，你触及到了我觉得这部电影中最令人振奋的一个方面：一方面， vampires 想要吸走所有人——尤其是这些黑人，特别是这个黑人小孩——的生命，这是一个重大的隐喻。

I mean, you're you're touching on something that I find to be such an electrifying aspect of the movie, which is on the one hand, there's this big load bearing metaphor about the vampires who wanna siphon the life Mhmm.

他们吸走生命，而雷米克（由杰克·奥康奈尔饰演）这个角色痴迷于这个孩子，因为他听到的音乐能唤起他的过去，让他记起自己的人生，这是一个非常复杂的想法——就像白人常常忘记他们曾窃取并商品化黑人艺术一样。

From all people, but especially these black people, and especially this one black kid who Remick the Jack O'Connell character is obsessed by because he hears the music that allows him to conjure his past and remember his own life, which is a really thorny idea that, like, white people forget about stealing black art and and commodifying it.

在美国，白人对黑人艺术着迷。

In America, white people are fascinated by black art.

他们被这种艺术打动。

They're moved by it.

它激励了如此多的白人创作出听起来像蓝调的音乐。

It has inspired so much so many white people to make art that is that sounds like the blues.

摇滚乐完全是蓝调音乐的一种蜕变。

That's Rock and roll is totally this transmogrification of the blues music.

这个观点真的很有趣。

So that idea is really interesting.

然后，萨米和其他一些在爵士酒吧里看着雷米克的人，再看看他们那些已经变成吸血鬼的亲人，内心挣扎着：是否要加入这种永恒的生命——成为集体意识的一部分，感觉自己属于某种更大的存在，但同时又意识到这种选择背后潜藏着邪恶、殖民性，以及自我丧失的风险。

And then so Sammy then and some of the other characters that are inside the juke joint looking at Remick and then looking at their loved ones who have become vampires and being torn about like whether to join this eternal life where you're part of a hive mind and you feel like a part of something, but knowing that there's a kind of evil in that decision and kind of colonization and just become like losing the self.

对吧？

Right?

为了获得安全感而放弃个性，这是一个吸血鬼电影中的重要主题。

Like losing your individuality in order to feel safer is a is a big idea in a vampire movie.

我认为他真的很好地传达了这一点。

And he I thought he really communicated it really well.

我认为总体上同意你的观点，电影中真正的吸血鬼暴力场面对我来说是最不成功的一部分。

And I I think I'm generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem of the movie to me is the least successful stuff in the movie.

是的。

Yes.

有些部分是因为，尽管库格勒现在已经拍了几部动作片，但我感觉他还达不到约翰·麦克蒂尔南那样的水平，让吸血鬼打斗成为电影中最精彩的部分。

And some of that is just like, even though Coogler's now made a few action movies, I feel like he's not in that like John McTiernan level where a vampire throwdown is gonna be the best thing in the movie.

他也许能到达那个境界，也许不能。

Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't.

但围绕吸血鬼设定的每一个概念都如此聪明、如此完整，尤其是当它更接近经典、普世的恐怖电影元素时，比如——只要你邀请我进去，我就能跨过那道界限。

But everything conceptually around the vampire usage is so smart and so realized, and so much of it when it is more like the formal classical universal horror movie stuff of, you know, if you would just invite me in and I could cross that line.

比如，我跟奥马尔聊过奥马尔·米勒那段戏，当他走进门时说：‘就让我进去吧。’

Like, Omar I talked to Autumn actually about that Omar Miller sequence when he comes through the door, and he's like, just let me come on in.

明白吗？

Know?

他们两人之间正在进行这种对话，这种情节一百年前的吸血鬼电影里就能找到，同样具有吸引力和深度。

And they're kind of having that negotiation between the two of them, and that's just like you could find that in a vampire movie a hundred years ago, and it would be just as compelling and just as interesting as a concept.

所以他确实很好地掌握了这部分内容。

So he's got his he's really got a handle on that stuff.

就是有一场大型的CGI打斗场面。

There is just like a big CGI fight.

就像很多漫威电影里那样。

Like like there is in so many Marvel movies.

实际上有两场这样的打斗。

There's two of them, really.

一场是袭击爵士酒吧，另一场是他们出去的时候，雷米克……你知道的，当所有人都在阳光下燃烧的时候。

There's the raid on the juke joint, and then there's when they go outside when Remick is is, you know, when they're all kind of burning in the sun.

我认为，当这部电影受到批评时，人们想到的就是这些片段，这让它感觉就像一部类型片、漫画电影之类的。

That is like I think when the movie gets criticized, it's people thinking about that stuff in the movie, which makes it feel just like a genre movie or a comic book movie or whatever.

然后你就忽略了其他那些富有戏剧性或隐喻性的内容，而正是这些内容让这部电影如此有力。

And it and then you like elide all the other dramatic or metaphorical stuff that makes it such a powerful movie.

但正如我自《水形物语》获得最佳影片以来一直说的那样，我觉得很好。

But I as I have been saying since the Shape of Water Best Picture win, I'm like, good.

让更多的这种东西出现在能赢得奥斯卡的电影里。

Like, get more of that shit in movies that can win Oscars.

《寄生虫》获奖很好，它就像希区柯克从未拍过的希区柯克式电影。

Parasite winning, which is like a Hitchcock movie after Hitchcock never won, is good.

让我们多拍点观众真正想看的东西吧，而这些元素之所以出现在电影里，部分原因是库勒对观众需求有着敏锐的洞察。

Like, let's just kinda get more what, like, people want from movies, that and is part of the reason why that stuff is all in there is because Kuhler has such a keen sense for what audiences want.

这正是他如此成功的原因。

It's what's made him so successful.

观众确实想要一个宏大的最终对决。

And they do want a big fight at the end.

他们确实想要一场激烈的较量，你知道的。

They do want a throwdown, you know.

这是你在拍《奎迪》或《黑豹》时学到的东西。

That's something that you learn making Creed or that you learn making Black Panther.

所以我理解为什么会有这些元素存在。

And so I understand why that stuff is there.

我希望它能更鲜明一些，或者更聪明一点。

I wish it was a little bit more sharply rendered or a little bit more clever.

而且你知道，它是在一个长达一小时的电影之后出现的，这部电影在仅一晚的时间内构建了如此庞大的世界观。

And it also, you know, it does come after not just, like, an hour of it's amazing how much world is built into what is a one night only movie.

这是一部持续二十四小时的故事。

This is it's a twenty four hour.

没错。

It is.

这是疯狂的一夜。

Is one crazy night.

没错。

It is.

没错。

It is.

还有这么多历史背景。

And so much history.

还有这么多娱乐活动。

And then and so much recreation.

我只是觉得，说制作设计、服装设计和摄影在这部片中特别出色，这虽然不算什么深刻的见解，但确实如此。

I just like the you know, it's not insightful to say that, like, the production design and the costume design and the the cinematography, like, really stand out in this.

但这是露丝·卡特的功劳。

But, like so that's Ruthie Carter.

这是汉娜·比克勒的功劳。

That's Hannah Bieckler.

这是奥特姆·德阿尔德·阿卡帕的功劳。

That's Autumn Derald Arkapaw.

他们真正地将1932年密西西比州的这个特定场景生动地呈现了出来。

And they really bring this specific place in in Mississippi in 1932 to life.

是的。

Yep.

还有火车站、棉花田、爵士酒吧，他们构建的这些空间都极其出色。

And The train station, the cotton fields, the Juke Joint, like, the the spaces that they build are really amazingly realized.

是的

Yeah.

你完全沉浸在那个世界里。

And so you're you're so immersed in that world.

库格勒谈过他做了大量的研究。

And Kugler has talked about, like, how much research, you know, he did.

除了这是家人分享给他的内容之外，这对他也意义重大。

And in addition to this being something that was shared with him from family members, and it's, like, a big part of meaningful to him.

嗯

Mhmm.

但这一切都被如此优美地还原了。

But so it's so beautifully recreated.

在吸血鬼情节真正展开之前，你先看到了我所谓的‘梦幻芭蕾’。

And then you do before all the vampire stuff really gets kicking, you have what I am now calling like the the dream ballet.

嗯

Mhmm.

那个大型段落，我刚才骗了你。

The like the big sequence, which is I I lied to you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这实际上是将黑人音乐与黑人历史在时间与空间上、过去与未来之间的联系具象化了。

And is a literalization of so much of what the movie is trying to do in terms of the connection of black music and and black history, like over time and space, backward and forward.

还有其他文化也是如此。

And also other cultures too.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

日本的，中国的。

Japanese, Chinese.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

而且它还通过角色来体现，比如中国历史在密西西比三角洲的代表，既体现在人物身上，也体现在那段梦幻芭蕾中。

And and it uses also the characters because they're the the Chinese group in the like, the Chinese history in the Mississippi Delta is represented in the characters and also in in that dream ballet.

它还创造出了一种我认为这部电影做得特别出色的东西——这是一部极具感官性的电影，深刻理解音乐的力量。

And it also creates something that I think the the movie does so well, which is this is like a very sensual movie, understands the power of music.

它理解动作的力量。

It understands the power of movement.

它理解性爱的力量。

It understands the power of sex.

它理解所有这些事物是如何与上帝和灵性相关的——一边是教堂，另一边是音乐，第三边是口交和大量的液体。

It understands how all those things are, like, related to God and spirituality and that, you know, on one side is church, on the other side is music, on the third side is oral sex and lots of liquids.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

你能感受到所有这些。

You feel all of those things.

就像，你能感受到各种 ecstatic 情感的组合或探索，然后你就会看到那段堪称惊艳的场景。

Like, it's just you feel the different combinations of or like explorations of the ecstatic, and then you get to that sequence, which is just killer.

而且画面美得惊人，这简直就是魔幻般的电影制作。

And and looks so good, and you're just it's it's magical movie making.

但你确实得看那个 CGI 吸血鬼打斗场面。

And then you do gotta watch the CGI vampire fight.

所以我认为，人们对那场打斗的一些批评或抵触，是因为前九十分钟达到了如此高的水准。

So I do think that some of the the criticism or the resistance to the that fight is because of, like, the high highs that are achieved in the first ninety minutes.

我第一次看的时候也有一点这种感觉。

I felt a little bit of it watching it even at the first time.

我当时就想，好吧。

I was like, okay.

这部电影有点进入更标准的电影套路了。

This is going into a slightly more standard movie territory.

我认为这些批评部分源于一代影迷，他们看过几部我认为谷歌坦诚承认过受其启发的电影。

And I think some of those criticisms are informed by a generation of movie fan that saw a couple of movies that I think Google has been pretty honest about being inspired by.

但我感觉最好还是把这些电影放在一个传承脉络里。

But I feel like it's probably better to put those movies in a in a lineage.

过去几个月我一直在和别人争论这一点，但很明显，这部电影有很多《从黄昏到黎明》的影子。

I've been kind of arguing with people about this over the last few months, but obviously, there's a lot of From Dusk till Dawn in this movie.

是的。

Yeah.

罗伯特·罗德里格兹执导的这部电影由昆汀·塔伦蒂诺编剧，乔治·克鲁尼和塔伦蒂诺饰演一对犯罪兄弟，他们绑架了一家人，带着他们作为人质踏上公路逃亡，以躲避银行抢劫后的追捕。

The Robert Rodriguez film, was written by Quentin Tarantino, George Clooney and Tarantino play brothers who are criminals who kidnap a family, and they bring them as hostages on this road trip so they can escape after a bank robbery.

他们来到墨西哥边境的一家酒吧，等待与人接头过夜，结果发现这家酒吧实际上是个吸血鬼酒吧，到了某个时间点，所有顾客和工作人员都变成了吸血鬼。

And they find themselves at a bar on the border of Mexico, and they realize when they're in this bar where they're waiting to meet someone overnight that it's actually a vampire bar, and that after a certain period of time, all the patrons of the bar and all the people who work at the bar are all vampires.

在某种程度上，这种相似性超出了表面的相似。

Very similar in a kind of a little more than superficial way.

但如果你回顾这些电影的历史，《从黄昏到黎明》明显受到了约翰·卡朋特的《袭击第13警局》的启发。

But if you look at the history of these movies, From Dusk till Dawn is very clearly inspired by John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13.

它也明显受到了凯瑟琳·毕格罗的《近夜》的启发。

It's also clearly inspired by Catherine Bigelow's Near Dark.