“我该去电影院看吗？”测试：《创：阿瑞斯》、《屋顶人》与《猎后》。此外，《斯科塞斯先生》的魔力。

他买了房子，还在办生日派对。懂吗？

he buys a house. He's throwing birthday parties. You know?

第一次时他都买不起生日礼物给她。或者说，你懂的？

He can't afford to buy her a birthday present the first time. Or let's you know?

那真是太惨了。是啊。他被抓了。进了监狱。没错。

That's very sad. Yeah. He gets caught. He goes to prison. Yeah.

他越狱了。对。然后试图开始新生活，这时新的人开始进入他的生活圈。这部电影由查宁·塔图姆、你们的女神克斯汀·邓斯特、本·门德尔森、勒凯斯·斯坦菲尔德、朱诺·坦普尔、梅兰妮·迪亚兹、乌佐·阿杜巴主演。阵容强大

He escapes prison. Yeah. And then he tries to start a new life, and then new people begin to come into his life. So this movie stars Channing Tatum, your girl, Kirsten Dunst, Ben Mendelson, LaKeith Stanfield, Juno Temple, Melanie Diaz, Uzo Aduba. Great cast in

这部电影。太棒了。

this movie. Amazing.

你觉得屋顶男怎么样？

What'd you think of roof man?

前一个小时我完全沉浸其中。

For the first hour, I was absolutely grooving.

好吧。

Okay.

这类电影很难收尾，但我想讨论最后部分——我觉得这里崩了。电影的结局。对。这部分或许也值得探讨生活常态

And it's hard to end movies like this, but I have I would like to discuss the last part where I think it falls apart. The conclusion of the The conclusion of the film. Yeah. Which is I guess also I'd like to discuss life and how it regularly

分崩离析。这是一部美丽的电影。这是一部我们应该支持的电影，所以你

falls apart. This is a beautiful film. This is a film that we should be supporting So you

知道我们要做什么吗？这不仅仅是关于屋顶侠，还有几部其他电影，有些我们讨论过，有些即将上映。是的。所以我们将在年底举办一场女儿爸爸峰会。

know what we are gonna do? And this is not just about roof man, but several other movies that some we've discussed, some to be released. Yeah. So we are going to have a girl dad summit at the end of the year.

听起来很棒。

That sounds great.

届时我们将审问所有的女儿爸爸们，包括你。

And that would and we're gonna interrogate all the all the girl dads and you.

这是其中一部——这是部很棒的女儿爸爸电影。当下文化中正发生着某种现象。

This is one of the this is just a great girl dad movie. There's something going on right now in the culture.

我不知道具体是什么。但它就像...而且还在持续发酵。还有更多类似作品即将涌现。

I don't know what it is. But it's like and it it keeps going. There are more coming.

我甚至不知道德里克·斯汀·弗朗斯是否有女儿，但他非常敏锐地捕捉到了这种能量，查宁·塔图姆也是。要知道，这部电影就像七十年代风格的角色研究展示台，充分展现了查宁·塔图姆的才华——他擅长精准演绎那种带着失败者气质、内心煎熬的角色。嗯哼。

I don't even know if Derek Steen France has a daughter, but he's he's very tapped in Yes. On the energy and as is Channing Tatum. You know, this movie is a big, like, seventies style character study showcase for Channing Tatum. It's like, what is Channing Tatum good at? He's good at blending very carefully kind of like losery, anguished guys Mhmm.

谁拥有令人难以置信的魅力

Who have incredible charm

是啊。

Yeah.

他既运用了那种与生俱来的运动型英俊气质，又结合了佛罗里达呆萌男孩的平凡感，将两者完美融合。他确实是个很棒的明星。没错。而过去五六年里，他并没有太多展现明星风采的机会。我认为这部电影真正捕捉到了查宁·塔图姆的特质和他的优势所在。

Who utilizes his, like, innate athletic handsomeness, but also his kind of, like, dopey Florida boy regularness and mashes those two things together. He's a really good star. Yeah. And he has not had a lot of star opportunities in the last five or six years. I think this movie really gets Channing Tatum and what he's good at.

这部电影某种程度上给了他发挥的空间。风格非常自由。完全同意。影片有些散漫，你知道，它慢慢展开故事，也许这正是让你稍感不适的地方。

It kinda lets him play. It's very loose. Totally. It's a little shambolic, the movie. You know, it's kinda takes its time on unraveling its story, and maybe that might be where you tripped a little bit.

其实，我正想说，我同意你的观点，这部电影确实理解他的闪光点，并围绕他展开。而且它还基于一个事实——尽管他做了那些事（比如开场就在麦当劳持枪抢劫），你还是会喜欢这个角色。他在片中偷窃、撒谎、抢劫。

Actually, I was gonna say I I agree with you that this movie understands what is great about him and is built around him. And and also built around the fact that you are going to like this guy despite what he is doing, which like it starts with armed robbery at McDonald's. And he is he is stealing, lying, holding things up.

这个角色缺陷很多，在电影里犯了不少错误。

Very flawed guy making a lot of mistakes in this movie.

但他也会深夜在玩具反斗城里跳舞。因为剧情是这样的：越狱后，他把玩具反斗城当成了藏身处。这部分很有趣，展现了生存智慧和创意——比如他怎么弄到M&M巧克力豆，吃什么等等，非常机灵。

But he's also dancing around at Toys R Us at night. Because what happens is once he escapes prison, he is he takes up residence in Toys R Us. And it's, you know, and that part is like, you know, fun survival and genius. How's he gonna get the M and M's and what's he gonna eat? All that's very crafty.

我认为这部电影对钱宁·塔图姆及其魅力的理解，最终也是我认为的影片缺陷所在。因为我不认为存在钱宁·塔图姆这个人，我认为存在的是这个角色。

I I think what it understands about Channing Tatum and his appeal is ultimately the flaw in the movie for me as well. Because I don't think I think there's Channing Tatum and I think there's this character.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而影片并未完全弥合两者之间的鸿沟。这相当复杂。电影似乎在暗示他既在做坏事，又存在缺陷，但并未真正探讨他善良的一面与他似乎拥有的这种冲动之间的联系。

And it does not totally bridge the gap between the two. And it is it's pretty complicated. And the movie is sort of suggesting that he's both doing bad things and that it's flawed, but it doesn't examine really the connection between what, you know, the nice side of him and this compulsion that he seems to have.

我们来聊聊这个。

Let's talk about that.

我真的

I'm really

对你说的很感兴趣。因为看这部电影时我想起的另一部电影虽然截然不同，却有许多相同特征——《猫鼠游戏》。《猫鼠游戏》是部电影

interested in what you're saying. Because the movie that I thought about while watching this movie is very different but has many of the same hallmarks. Catch Me If You Can. Catch Me If You Can is a movie

对。

Right.

那讲述的是一个非常相似的骗子、江湖骗子和罪犯的故事。

That is about a very similar kind of like grifter, huckster criminal

是啊。

Yeah.

他天生极具魅力。那部电影更偏向全球冒险，电影制作风格更为宏大。不像这部电影这么接地气，但它确实做到了你所说的，就是定位了这种与家庭的疏离感，对吧。体现在弗兰克·阿巴内尔这个角色身上，比如不断回归到父亲形象和克里斯托弗·沃肯饰演的角色，那个从未真正得到应有回报的人，这种心理刻画让阿巴内尔更立体。

Who's got a lot of innate charm. It's that movie is more globetrotting. It's more kind of epic in its filmmaking style. It's not as grounded as this movie, but it actually does do what you're saying, which is it kind of locates this, you know, disconnection from family Right. In the Frank Abagnale character and like this circling back to the father figure and the Christopher Walken and the guy who never really kind of quite got what he deserved and that like psychologizes Abagnale.

我觉得那部电影这样处理很合适。而在这部电影里，我认为完全可以接受这样的设定：这个人服完兵役后出来，没什么能转化的技能，嗯。然后突然发现自己有了孩子，前途一片渺茫。

I think that that's appropriate for that movie. In this movie, I actually think it's okay to just be like, this is a guy who went to the service, got out, didn't really have any, you know, skills that ported over. Mhmm. And just kinda found himself with a kid and shit out of luck in terms of his prospects.

这些对我来说都很有道理。随着电影推进，尤其是结局部分。当他第二次陷入失控时，剧情有几处逻辑跳跃，我猜这是他在现实生活中的真实行为。但你看，突然间他就毫无负担地开始了新生活，甚至组建了第二个家庭，这本身就很复杂，但在电影里表现得就像‘是啊，他就是特别喜欢家庭’那么简单。

So that all makes a lot of sense to me. It's as the movie goes on and really the resolution of the movie. And when things get out of control for him again a second time, and there are a couple leaps of logic and a leaps of I guess this is what he did in real life. But, you know, suddenly he's just out living a full life with no and has basically taken on a second family, which is complicated in its own way, you know, and is presented in this as just kind of like, yeah, but he just like loves families.

我觉得他是在寻求情感联结。没错。他是个迷失的人。

Well, I think it's that he's seeking connection. Sure. You know, that he's a lost person.

但是——而且可能更多是因为钱宁·塔图姆的演绎——钱宁·塔图姆身上除了深爱家庭之外，没有任何心理创伤的痕迹。没有任何不对劲的地方。所以随着电影继续，他做了几个冲动决定，发生了一些事情。

But and and and maybe it's more that like the way that Channing Tatum there's there's there is nothing damaged about what's going on with Channing Tatum besides that he really loves his family. There's like nothing weird going on. And so Yeah. As the movie continues, he makes a couple erratic decisions. There are a couple of things that are going on.

这是一个你绝对会支持的角色，但同时他又不够聪明。不仅仅是因为他像新闻里说的那样，像个天才傻瓜。是的，我觉得钱宁·塔图姆没有传达出某种微妙的东西。

This is a person that you're definitely rooting for, but is also not thinking smart. And it's not just because he is as a, like someone on the news says, like, a genius moron. Yeah. There is something weird that I don't think Channing Tatum communicates.

没错。我是说，你说得对，但我喜欢这一点。对我来说，这就是《热天午后》的魅力所在。当然不是说这部能和《热天午后》相提并论，但都是关于蠢蛋犯大错的故事。

Yeah. You're I mean, you're right, but I like that about it. Like, to me, it's like that's what Dog Day Afternoon is. Yeah. I'm not saying this is nearly as good as Dog Day Afternoon, but it's like fuck ups making big mistakes.

对。

Right.

但让观众与角色产生不可否认的情感共鸣，确实是电影创作中容易丢失的一环。

But have but but having an undeniable emotional connection to the character is a is a strain of filmmaking item loss.

完全同意。我觉得结尾部分可能拖得有点太久，考验观众的耐心。但对我来说，我知道这是真实事件改编，却不知道结局如何。嗯。

Totally Which did. I think it also probably just like takes a little little too long towards the end. And so it's like restraining credulity. But for me, the you know, I knew it was real, and I didn't know how it ended. Mhmm.

哦天啊，还有那个——结尾的画外音场景，剧透警告，我猜是关于屋顶人的部分。

So oh my god. That was another thing. The scene like the voice over at the end when spoiler alert, I guess for roof.

如果你不想被剧透屋顶人的结局，现在快跑

If you don't want roof man spoilers before you carve

然后这个故事是基于真实事件改编的。所以他再次被捕了。是的。因为他的女友由Cureson Nunce饰演，她发现了真相并报了警。然后他被关进监狱，还发表了一通类似'监禁对我大有裨益'的演讲。

out And then is based on a true story. So he is arrested again. Yeah. Because, his girlfriend played by Cureson Nunce, like figures it out and calls it in. And then he's imprisoned and he like gives a whole like, incarceration is great for me speech.

而我觉得'我正处于需要的一切之中'这种说法完全疯了，让我感到被冒犯。不，他在撒谎。他是在撒谎吗？

And I'm where I need to be everything, which I thought was completely insane and was offended by. And No. He was lying. He was lying?

没错。这才是重点，因为在片尾字幕里提到他又越狱了两次。

Yeah. That's the whole point because he break the in the in the after card, it talks about how he broke out two more times.

不。但接着镜头转到片尾字幕，显示他又越狱两次，但拍摄方式和钱宁·塔图姆的表演传达出的感觉并非在撒谎，也不具威胁性，不像是在暗示什么。对我来说这完全不是'静水流深'的感觉。

No. But like so and then it goes to the after card and he breaks out two more but the way that it is shot and the way that Channing Tatum is communicating that is not lying, is not threatening, is not like there's something going on here. It's not Still Waters Run Deep to me.

我不这么认为，我的理解不同。

I don't think to me, I read it differently.

这点真的让我非常非常抵触。

And I really, really bumped on it.

我的理解不同。我认为他就是个无可救药的骗子。他无法停止行骗，因为这是他唯一真正擅长的事——就像开头他说的那些观察和计划。所以他知道，当被问到'你还想越狱吗'时，如果回答'是'，他们就会加紧对他的监管。

I I read it differently. I just read it as he is a helpless grifter. Like, he cannot stop scheming because it's it's like the only thing he's actually good at is these, like, plots and these plans and this observational stuff that he's talking about at the beginning. And so he knows if he like, if he answers yes to that question when it's posed to him about do you still think about breaking out, that they're gonna tighten the vice grip

在他身上。这是画外音。就是当他像是...也许他在这部分也在撒谎，但他实际上是在进行画外音叙述，配合着一连串的蒙太奇画面，展现所有那些...

on him. It's the it's the voice over. It's when he's like and and maybe he's lying in that too, but he's literally giving a voice over and it's a montage of like everything that

但难道没人直接问他吗？最后有人问他什么来着？对，最后在治疗小组围坐时，有个狱友直截了当地问他。他不是说了句类似'你现在还想越狱吗'这样的话？

But doesn't a guy ask him? Or what does a guy ask him at the end? Yeah. At the end, he's asked point blank by one of the his fellow inmates when they're in that therapy circle. He said doesn't he say to him, like, do you still think about breaking out?

没错。

Yeah.

或者他问的是'你后来再见过李吗？'应该是这两个问题之一。

Or does he say, did you ever see Lee again? It's one of those two things.

噢，他绝对问了'你后来再见过李吗？'可能在画外音里他还说了类似'我已经不怎么想越狱了'之类的话

Oh, he definitely asks, did you ever see Lee again? And I maybe in the voice over, he's like, and I don't really think about breaking out anymore and all

这些内容。感觉有点像告密者的设定，你懂吧，就是这个人...

those things. Saw that as kind of like the informant, you know, where it's just like this guy this is

不可靠的叙述视角。毕竟查宁·塔图姆不是马特·达蒙嘛。而且...这正是我特别喜欢他的地方，我觉得他很有魅力。

an unreliable narrative. Well, Channing Tatum isn't Matt Damon. You know? And and that is that's kinda what I really like him. I thought he was very charming.

但是，某种程度上，他们的表演和查宁·塔图姆的选角对我来说并没有传达出表面之下的一切。所以我有点困惑

But, like, at some point, their performance and the casting of Channing Tatum does not to me communicate the like, everything that's going on under the surface. So I was a little confused by

结局。你喜欢克里斯汀·邓斯特在电影里的表现吗？

the end. Did you like Kirsten Dunst in the film?

我觉得她很棒。是的，我是说我喜欢她。她基本上就是个女朋友的角色，但她有更多发挥空间。如果有人没问我就给我孩子买了辆车，更别提还开车，我肯定会非常生气。

I thought she was great. Yeah. I mean, I like her. She's just basically the girlfriend, but she gets to do a little bit more. I would have been really pissed if someone bought my kid a car without asking me, let alone driving.

但那正是她似乎开始行动的时候

But that's when she seems to things

这是个有趣的场景。我觉得饰演大女儿的卡莱乌斯表现非常出色。她去年出演了《好家伙》，那是部好电影。是的，我认为这部电影的一个优势就是它点缀着这些才华横溢的演员，尽管角色都很小。

It's an interesting scene. I thought that we callaius who plays the older daughter was very good. She was in Good One last year, which is a good film. Yeah. I think that one of the things that this that helps this movie is that it's just dotted with all of these insanely talented actors in pretty small roles.

我是说，本·门德尔森的戏份简直一流。

Mean, the Ben Mendelsohn stuff is elite.

本·门德尔森，彼得·丁拉基饰演Twizz R Us的经理，莱克思·斯坦菲尔德演他那个像跟班似的军队战友对吧。朱诺·坦普尔演他军队战友女友的发型师。不太有趣。有很多小细节，感觉就像三十年前的电影。完全同意。

Ben Mendelsohn, Peter Dinklage is the manager of the Twizz R Us, LaKeith Stanfield as his, like, flunky army buddy Right. Juno Temple as his flunky army buddy's girlfriend hairdresser. Not really fun. There there's a lot of, like, little it just felt like a movie from thirty years ago. Totally.

你知道吗？我当时就想，我超爱看电影的。

You know? And I was like, I love movies.

每个场景设计——虽然找不到更好的词来形容——比如逃亡戏，他在玩具反斗城里谋生所做的一切都显得非常真实刺激。电影处理得也很棒，有个他试图逃出卡车的场景，我看得特别紧张。你知道，就一个广角镜头加上走位设计，还有钱宁·塔图姆的肢体表现，很多部分真的非常出色。

Every single set piece for lack of a better turn, but like the escape, everything that he is doing to make a life in Toys R Us is like very real and exciting. And like in film really well, there's a scene where he's trying to get out of a truck. And I was, like, very stressed out. And it's, you know, one wide shot and the blocking and, again, Channing Tatum's physicality. A lot of it is really, really good.

我只是对结局特别不满意。

I just really bumped on the ending.

你看法国导演拍了很多关于家庭破裂的焦虑情感电影，《蓝色情人节》《松林外》，还有我挚爱的《赴汤蹈火》，《大洋之间的灯光》。这些电影我觉得都很棒且完成度高，其中第二部在我心中有特殊地位。

So See in France has made a lot of very angsty emotional movies about families breaking down. Blue Valentine, The Place Beyond the Pines, my beloved Sure. The Light Between Oceans. Those movies I think are all good and all accomplished. I have a huge place in my heart for the for the second of the three.

虽然有时候他们有点...像是想把风格强加给别人。对，你能明显感受到影响的重量。我喜欢这部电影的点在于，尽管它像部老电影，但我不觉得他在模仿别人的作品。

They although are very, like, kinda trying to put them on somebody else's jacket sometimes. Yeah. And you can really feel the weight of influence. A thing I like about this movie is even though it feels like an old movie, I don't feel like it is him making somebody else's movie. No.

感觉导演非常...这片子有种自洽的气质。而我觉得我的责任就是要为这样的电影喝彩，把它捧起来。

It felt like he felt very it felt very comfortable in its own skin. And I just I I feel it is my job to celebrate to, like, lift up a movie like this.

完全同意。我觉得...有意思的是，我对这部电影的抵触或者说理解障碍，恰恰也是它难以营销的原因。观众对钱宁·塔图姆有既定印象，而这片宣传又主打他的招牌。

Totally. I'm I I think it is I What's interesting to me about it is I think that my, like, resistance or the the thing that didn't compute about the movie for me is also what makes it hard to sell. Totally. And and you expect one thing you associate one thing with Channing Tatum. And this is a movie that's been marketed, like around Channing Tatum.

是的。

Yes.

他是个同性恋。是的。

He is a gay man. Yeah.

没错。所以他就在那儿。对，他就在那儿。你知道，这还挺有趣的。但我脑子里其实带着一种预设模式去看这部电影的。

Yeah. So there he is. Yeah, there he is. You know, and it's like, pretty funny. But so I'm I'm in one one mode in my head when I'm going in to see it.

我不确定他是否完全达到了电影需要他达到的另一个层次。但如果你抱着某种期待去看...我也说不清。这很让人困惑。你该怎么向一个不了解情况的普通人描述这部电影呢？

And I don't know if he quite gets to the other place that the movie needs to to get him to. But also if you go in expecting I don't know. It's confusing. What are you telling someone? Like a random person who's not us what this is.

那我们聊聊这些元素吧。哇。FOMO效应（错失恐惧症）。我试图通过表达对这部电影的热情来制造FOMO效应，但我觉得电影本身并不具备这种特质。它就不是那种类型的电影。

Well, let's let's talk about the components then. Wow. FOMO factor. I'm trying to create a FOMO factor by talking about my enthusiasm for the movie, but I don't think that that exists in the movie. It's just not that kind of a movie.

这是部小成本电影。倒不是说它特别小，毕竟演员阵容很知名，犯罪故事的格局也铺得挺开。但你没看这部电影也不会觉得错过了什么。不过观影时的群体氛围在我那个影厅里效果特别好。

It is a smaller film. It's not like it's not not tiny or anything like that. It is still like very famous people and it's got a fairly expansive crime story to it. But there's you're not, like, missing out by not going to this movie. The communal factor played really well in the room that I was in.

观众们有笑有泪。我感觉大家都很投入。

People were laughing. They were emotional. I it seemed like it was clicking.

我又来了，这周工作日下午我也看了。就在《创：阿瑞斯》之后看的，我那场观众比《创》还多些，但现场很安静。

I again, I also saw this week day afternoon. I saw it right after Tron Aries, and there were more people in my screening than Tron Aries, but it was quiet.

真有意思，这部电影似乎反响还不错。

That's so interesting that this movie seems to be doing okay.

我说的'多'其实也就...大概五个人吧。对比之前只有一个人。

I mean, by more, I mean, like, five Yeah. As opposed to one.

要知道，这可能是派拉蒙旧时代——雷石东掌权时期的最后几部作品之一了，现在公司正在易主。这种电影...我不确定其他大制片厂会不会投拍。所以...在家看效果会不同吗？圣弗朗西斯最后一部作品是给HBO拍的电视迷你剧，可以说这部片子在家看也很合适。

Well, it's also it's, you know, ultimately like, one of the very can maybe end up being one of the last releases of the Paramount previous regime, you know, the Redstone era of Paramount, which is now changing hands. And it's the kind of movie that, like, I don't know if it would even be made in many other major studios. So okay. The the is this different at home factor? Now, Saint Francis, the last thing that he did was a TV miniseries for HBO, and you could make the case that this is something that would play perfectly well at home.

不过我觉得如果你边看边玩手机——那当然会分心——会错过很多细节。它的魅力部分在于那种细腻含蓄的安静氛围，比如你一低头，可能就错过他转角去拿东西的镜头，或是他在玩具反斗城货架上拿了什么。对了，说到玩具反斗城...

However, I do think you would miss a lot if you were, like, had your phone out Well, that's always distracted. Yeah. And but part of its charm, I think, is in, like, this, like, subtle character quietness where, like, if you put your head down for a second, you don't see that he's like going around the corner to do another thing or like what he grabbed off the shelf at Toys R Us. Yeah. By the way, Toys R Us.

嗯...你小时候那边有玩具反斗城吗？当然有。你觉得那家店怎么样？

Mhmm. Did you have one where you grew up? Of course. What'd you think of Toys R Us?

我以前总想方设法要去那里玩。

It was I tried to go there all the time.

世界上最重要的地方

Most important place

没错。是的。我当时就想，我真想再去那里一次。对。

in the world. Exactly. Yes. I was like, I I would like to be there again. Yep.

我肯定是在那儿买的电子宠物机。我是说，我记得它的位置。就在Old Navy旁边。

That's definitely where I bought the Tamagotchi. I mean, I remember where it was located. It was next to the Old Navy.

好。

K.

就在你上Georgia 400高速的地方，亚特兰大的朋友都懂。那是我常去的玩具反斗城。

Like, right where you got on the like, Georgia 400, which my ATL people will know. So that was my local Toys R Us.

老兄，进去那感觉简直爽翻了。那种兴奋感，那种刺激。

Man, it just kicked ass going in there. That feeling, that rush.

所以现在真正的问题是，我得找到那个长颈鹿杰弗里。哦对。因为那个视频。因为

So a real issue now is that I have to locate a a Jeffrey the giraffe. Oh, right. Because of the video. Because

已经停业了，大概有

has been out of business for, like,

十年。二十年。所以我是说，我还没深入研究过eBay。但如果有人知道哪里能买到杰弗里长颈鹿的真人大小服装，你知道的，那种能让克里斯·瑞安穿去我孩子生日派对的。

a decade. Two decades. So I mean, I I haven't, like, deep dived to eBay. But if anyone knows where I can get a Jeffrey the giraffe, like, life-sized costume, you know, that someone probably Chris Ryan can wear to my child's birthday party.

真有趣。

That's funny.

请告诉我。玩具反斗城的长颈鹿，eBay。好的。

Please let me know. Toys R the giraffe, eBay. Okay.

那家店2018年就关门了。

The store is closed in 2018.

好吧。

Okay.

那会很有意思。祝你好运。杰弗里长颈鹿，好吉祥物？诺克斯私下说的？

So that'll be interesting. I wish you luck. Jeffrey the giraffe, good mascot? Knox takes aside?

我 我 他想 他想给他一个拥抱。所以我觉得这挺好的。

I I he wanted he wants to give him a hug. So I guess that's good.

酷。那很好。是啊。我非常喜欢屋顶人。

Cool. That's nice. Yeah. I liked Roofman a lot.

好吧。我喜欢它，而且我对这个价格感到非常震惊。在eBay上这套服装要1000美元。而且这甚至不是杰弗里，是吉吉。

Okay. I liked it, and I was pretty baffled by the wow. $1,000 on eBay for this costume. It's and it's not even Jeffrey. It's Gigi.

我猜这就是为什么它值一千美元。

I guess that's why it's a thousand dollars.

吉吉，像是他的女性伴侣吗？

Gigi, like his female companion?

是的。她是大都会太太。

Yeah. She's the missus Met.

你现在可以在Spotify上观看《大画面》，以及ringer首个电视频道，该频道仅在三星TV plus上独家提供，这个无需订阅的流媒体平台为你带来最优质的电视内容。

You can now watch the big picture on Spotify and the ringer's first ever television channel available exclusively on Samsung TV plus, the subscription free streaming destination bringing you the best of TV.

重温我们的一些经典作品，比如1999年电影选秀、十年最佳恐怖片等，尽在新开通的全天候Ringer频道。您还可以静下心来追更其他Ringer热门节目，包括《Rewatchables》、《Ringerverse》和《Higher Learning》。

Rewatch some of our greatest hits like the 1999 movie draft, the best horror movies of the decade, and more on the new all day ringer channel. You can also settle in and catch up with your other Ringer favorites, including the rewatchables, the Ringerverse, and higher learning.

观看方式：在三星电视或Galaxy移动设备上打开Samsung TV Plus应用，找到Ringer频道，砰——您就进入了。我们来聊聊《狩猎之后》吧。这部新片由卢卡·瓜达尼诺执导。没错。

To watch, open the Samsung TV plus app on your Samsung TV or Galaxy mobile device, navigate to the Ringer channel, and boom. You're in. Let's speak about after the hunt. After the hunt is the new film directed by Luca Guadagnino. Yeah.

天啊，我们这节目可太爱卢卡了。

Boy, we love Luca on this show.

爱死了。

Love it.

我们俩是他最忠实的粉丝。这部新片由诺拉·加勒特编剧，主演是我们同样喜爱的朱莉·罗伯茨，还有伊奥·德布里斯、安德鲁·加菲尔德、迈克尔·斯图尔巴特、科洛·塞维尼。

We're two of his biggest fans. This new movie is written by Nora Garrett. It stars Julie Roberts, another actor we love. Io Debris is also in this movie. Andrew Garfield, Michael Stuellbart, Chloe Sevigny.

不确定是否有个

Not sure if there's a

超棒的演员阵容。是啊，都是咱们的老熟人。

cool collection of actors. Yeah. All our guys and gals.

这真是精彩纷呈。配乐由特伦特·雷诺和阿提克斯·罗斯操刀。确实如此。知道吗？这部电影的摄影师马利克·哈桑·赛义德已经27年没拍过电影了。

That's a lot of great stuff. This score is done by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. Sure is. You know what? This movie was shot by Malik Hassan Saeed who has not shot a movie in twenty seven years.

但他上一部拍摄的《Belly》是我毕生最爱的电影之一。九十年代他还掌镜过斯派克·李的多部作品。他以音乐视频闻名，包括碧昂丝的《Formation》——堪称世界顶级视觉盛宴。对吧。这该成为影史最佳吗？

But the last movie he shot was one of my favorite movies of all time, Belly. He also shot a number of Spike Lee movies in the nineties. He's well known for his music videos, including Beyonce's formation, one of the greatest eyes in the world. Right. Should this be the greatest movie of all time?

或许吧。理应如此。可惜事实并非这样。

Probably. It probably should. Unfortunately, it's not that.

说来有趣，我在威尼斯电影节看了这部约70%的内容——现在才意识到比例。后来因开场延误不得不离场（不追究责任方），赶赴另一场放映。如今总算看完了全片。

So I, famously to me, saw what I now know to be about 70% of this movie at the Venice Film Festival. And then I had to leave because it started late. Won't say whose fault that was. And then I had to get to another screening. I've now seen the whole film.

结果发现我离场的时机恰到好处，让这部电影显得还不错。

Turns out I left at the perfect moment for this to be a good movie.

明白了。

I see.

然后...然后我才补完了剩余30%的部分。

And then and then I saw the other 30%.

好吧，那我们聊聊这部电影。看过的人不多，所以很难深入细节，但我得尽量多讲些。嗯，距离我看完已经过去几周了，你可以帮我回忆一下。这是一部关于一位大学教授的电影，当她的同事面临性侵指控时，她被迫直面自己隐秘的过去。

Okay. Well, let's let's talk about it. I I this movie hasn't been seen by a ton of people, so it's hard to get in the weeds too much, but I have to get in the weeds as much as I can. Yeah. It's been a few weeks since I've seen this so you can help hold my hand through But some of it's a film about a college professor who's forced to grapple with her own secretive past after when one of her colleagues is faced with a sexual assault accusation.

对。

Right.

片中朱莉娅·罗伯茨饰演一位——我想说是中年教师正在争取终身教职。等等，她不算中年吗？

So in the film, Julia Roberts plays, I guess, a middle aged teacher going for tenure. Rude. Is she not middle aged?

但就像我说的中年教师...她演的是耶鲁大学的哲学教授。她是

But but like this I said like middle aged teacher. She plays a professor at a philosophy professor at Yale. She's a

个上了年纪的女性...不，她是位受人尊敬的女性，是教授。为什么她还没获得终身教职？我不太理解这点。她之前

lady who's older no. She's a she's an esteemed woman. She's a pro Why is she not a tenure? I don't fully understand that. She's she had

请过一段时间假。因为她有某种神秘疾病，总是呕吐。

to take some time off Okay. Because she has a mysterious illness and she keeps vomiting.

没错。她...你是在为朱莉娅辩护还是为这个角色辩护？

That's right. She Are you defending Julia or the character?

我在为穿西装外套的中年女性辩护。好吗？就像，你一旦看到，注意到相似之处了吗？故意这么穿的。对。

I'm defending middle aged women who wear blazers. Okay? Like, once you saw it, did you notice the similarity? Wear this on purpose. Yeah.

当然，我注意到了。是的。但这是我的朱莉娅风格装扮。不过，我有很多选择吗？嗯，确实有。

Of course, I did. Yes. But this is my Julia outfit. But like, did I have many to choose from? Well, I sure did.

她在片中穿着无可挑剔

She styled impeccably in

但你也看出来了吗，服装上和阿曼达的相似之处？

this film. But did you also see why like, did you see the Amanda similarities in the outfits?

我觉得只有你才会注意到这个。

I think that's something only you see.

好吧。哇哦。这话太伤人了。

Okay. Wow. That's so rude.

好吧。这只是一句好台词。我想她饰演的这位教授正在争取终身教职，她的朋友，看起来他可能是她的门生。鉴于年龄差距，关系不太明确。可能相差十到十二岁左右。

Okay. It was just a good line. I think let so she plays this this professor who's up for tenure, her friend, and it seems like maybe she he was a mentee. It's unclear given the age difference. Maybe there's like a ten or twelve year age difference.

安德鲁·加菲尔德饰演的角色也在争取终身教职。

Andrew Garfield's character is also going up for tenure.

看起来他们可能一起合写过论文。

They it seems like maybe they've, like, co written papers together.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们在同一个系。他们在哲学系。

They're in the same department. They're in the philosophy department.

他们是关系亲密的同事。两人之间似乎有种心照不宣的历史渊源。对吧。他们之间

They're close colleagues. They have what seems to be a kind of history between them, but it's unspoken. Right. They have

你能察觉到这种历史感，因为安德鲁·加菲尔德就像在金球奖上那样，衬衫只扣了两颗纽扣。没错。还戴着吊坠，整个人无时无刻不在散发着致命魅力。

And it's you pick up on that history because Andrew Garfield, much like at the Golden Globes, only has two shirt buttons on his shirt buttoned Yes. And is wearing a pendant and is just is absolutely shooting lasers everywhere at all times.

他这是...这是安德鲁·加菲尔德演技全开的状态。我得说从表演角度看确实如此。完全同意。可能有点过火了。

He's he's this is Andrew Garfield in overdrive. I would say performance wise. Totally. Perhaps too much so.

好的。

Okay.

Io Debris本质上是朱莉娅·罗伯茨饰演角色的助教，对她崇拜有加。我们看到她和一群年轻学生及研究生崇拜这两位教授及其言论。同时我们也目睹了代际冲突——年轻一代如何看待世界，老一辈又如何看待世界，以及长者内心滋生的那种 cynicism（愤世嫉俗），对年轻群体激进的进步思想的排斥。

Io Debris is essentially Julia Roberts's character's TA, and she worships her. And we see her and the young cohort of students and grad students who worship these two professors and the discourse. And we also see this generational clash between how these younger students view the world and how the elders view the world and the kind of cynicism that has grown inside of the older folks and the rejection of the more progressive ideas emanating off of the younger folks.

没错。

Right.

这应该是部极具当代性的电影，对吧？我们常在节目里调侃这类话题，它显然渗透在文化战争的各个角落。涉及无数议题，不仅是性侵，还有世界冲突、薪酬差距等等。

This should be a very contemporary movie. Right? This is a thing we joke about that this sort of stuff on the show all the time. It's obviously in the culture wars all over the place Right. Regarding any number of issues, not just sexual assault, but world conflict and, you know, pay gaps.

这类题材能拍出千万种故事，但本片迅速聚焦于一场'他说/她说'的性接触事件——一位年长教授造访年轻学生家中后发生了什么。嗯，我们并未目睹事件经过，电影刻意隐藏了关键情节。

And there's a million things you can make a movie like this about. But this one very quickly becomes a story about he he said, she said sexual encounter between an older professor who visits the home of a younger student and something happens. Mhmm. We don't see what happens. The film very purposefully hides the the event in question.

随后剧情发展为介于侦探故事般的真相探寻，但更核心的是：这个非直接参与事件的女性，因知晓涉事者与事件本身而承受巨大压力。在这类情境中，知情者该承担何种责任？这是个用迂回叙事探讨的直白命题。尽管影片画面精良，但我认为朱莉娅·罗伯茨的表演堪称她近年最佳之一。

And then it becomes a sort of like somewhere between a detective story trying to ascertain the truth of what's happened, but more specifically how this event affects this woman who is not the primary participant in the in the in the incident, but is like, her her knowledge of the people and the event looms large. And sort of like, what is the responsibility of someone with knowledge in these spaces? So that's like a very oblique setup for a direct kind of idea. And while the film looks good, and I think Julia Roberts is actually excellent in this movie. I think this is, like, legitimately one of her best performances in some time.

她确实演得很棒。

She's really good.

我觉得这部电影就像...我其实完全不明白它想表达什么。根本搞不懂剧本在说什么，非常混乱。我觉得结局令人费解。是的。

I thought this movie was like I I actually have no idea what it was trying to do. No clue what its script was trying to say. It's very confusing. I found the ending to be baffling. Yes.

令人费解。我觉得奥黛丽——一位我特别喜欢的女演员——在这部电影里完全力不从心。

The baffling. I thought I Odebris, an actress I really like to be way in over her head in this movie.

不过我确实想过这是否是有意为之的选择，就像一种表演风格？

Though I did wonder whether that was a purposeful choice, like a performance choice?

有可能，但她在几个本应展现分量的场景里完全撑不起来，特别是某些台词需要她传递力量的时候。而且...我不知道。我不清楚这是导演的问题还是什么，总之我觉得她驾驭不了这类题材。

Possibly, but I she just does not have the gravitas in a couple of moments where she's expected to deliver some might on the other end of her speeches. And, you know, I don't know. And I don't know if that's the direction. I don't know what it is. I I did not think she was kind of up to this kind of material.

而且我认为剧本本身也配不上它的立意。

And I think that the material was not up to its ideas.

对。你描述里漏掉了一点——我认为这既是电影的核心主题，或许也是它失败的原因：这本质上是部校园政治题材电影

Yeah. The one thing that you left out from the description that I think is pretty central both to the movie itself and then also perhaps its failure is that this is very much a campus politics movie

嗯。

Mhmm.

确实。比如，你知道，它开场就直接用伍迪·艾伦风格的标题卡写着‘这事发生在耶鲁’。然后有一段校园生活的小蒙太奇，其实是在伍迪·艾伦的家里拍的，这点我觉得挺有意思。部分内容在我看来还挺逗乐的。

Too. Like, it's you know, it it opens honestly with the title card and the Woody Allen font saying it happened at Yale. And then there's like a little montage of campus life in Woody Allen's house, which, again, I I thought this was funny. Parts of this to me are amusing.

我原本以为对这些理念的讽刺会更犀利些。完全是因为那个开场设定。

I was I thought it was gonna be much more rye about these ideas Totally. Because of that setup.

没错。但这就是校园政治。故事不仅发生在大学校园里，还是耶鲁哲学系的背景。所以除了校园政治辩论，还有很多代际冲突的内容。

Totally. But so and so it's campus politics. It is set not just like on a campus, on a college campus, but in the philosophy department of a of Yale. And so and there is a lot of along with the campus politics debate, like, lot of intergenerational stuff.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你看，很多情节都是老一辈在吐槽‘现在的年轻人怎么了？’但可能他们是对的，可年轻人到底哪里不对劲？这种叙事往往陷入死胡同。对吧？

And, you know, much of it is older generation being like, what's wrong with these younger people? But also maybe they're right, but what's wrong with them? And so that is just always kind of a dead end as a as a story. You know? Yes.

而且

And even

这是场辩论，不是部电影。

It's a debate. It's not a movie.

没错。但它试图将那种——基本上像是一篇暴躁的《纽约时报》专栏文章——与非常、非常肥皂剧式的剧情风格融合起来，抱歉，即使你想，你也没法把学术终身制搞得那么狗血，他们确实努力尝试了。然后它又彻底抛弃了所有肥皂剧式的剧情线。好像一切都还算过得去。所以它对自己尝试的任何方向都没有坚持到底。

Right. But and and so it tries to infuse that and basically like what is sort of a cranky New York Times op ed with like very, very soapy plot stylings that like, sorry, you can't make tenure that soapy even if you want to and like they really do try. And then it completely, like, abandons all of the soapy plotlines as well. Like everything is just kind of fine. So it doesn't commit to any of the things that it is trying to do.

说到你提到的电影开头伍迪·艾伦风格的字体，这部电影最受惠的影片是《罪与错》。《罪与错》是部值得剖析的有趣电影，因为它由两个故事组成。是的。关于人生轨迹相交的人们的故事交织在一起。在一条故事线里，马丁·兰道与安杰丽卡·休斯顿有染，因害怕奸情败露而企图谋杀她。对吧。

To your point about the Woody Allen font at the beginning of the film, the film that this is most indebted to is Crimes and Misdemeanors. Crimes and Misdemeanors, interesting movie to kind of unpack because it's a it's two tales Yeah. Tied together about people whose lives cross over. In the one film, you've got in the one story, you've got Martin Landau having an affair with Angelica Houston, and then afraid to be kind of caught in this affair and he attempts to have her killed. Right.

这是部关于男性气质失败的严肃尖刻的人物剖析片。而另一方面，伍迪·艾伦和米亚·法罗饰演的这对夫妻——他是个电影导演，她与更成功的导演艾伦·阿尔达共事，那家伙有点自吹自擂——这部分更具经典伍迪·艾伦喜剧的能量。这两个世界相互碰撞摩擦，一边相当滑稽。

Very serious kind of mordant character piece about the failures of masculinity. Right? And then on the flip side, you've got Woody Allen and Mia Farrow as this couple who are like and he like, he's a filmmaker, and she's working with Alan Alda who's a more successful filmmaker and kind of a blowhard, and it's got a little bit more of that, like, classical Woody Allen comedy energy. And you've got these two worlds kind of colliding and rubbing up against each other. One's pretty funny.

艾伦·阿尔达在那部电影里超级搞笑。另一边则是道德困境题材的致命严肃。这样调和了两者的基调。而本片尤其在最后75分钟里，简直严肃得要命，完全不带半点幽默感

Allen Ole is hilarious in that movie. One's really deathly serious in this kind of moral dilemma film. So it leavens the the two sides. This movie, especially in the final seventy five minutes, is just, like, deathly serious. Like, there's no sense of humor about it

完全没有。急刹车式转折。

at all. Slams on the break.

对卢卡来说，这真的太让我惊讶了。

Which is for Luca, I'm just so surprised.

特别诡异。

It's really weird.

我发现他所有的电影，包括那些非常严肃的作品，都带有一种心照不宣的敏感气质。懂吗？就像是在说，我在拍我的食人族爱情片，但我把它拍得有点搞笑。明白吗？尽管内容很恶心，但总带着点狡黠的意味。

I find that all of his movies, even his very serious films, have like a a kind of knowing sensibility about them. You know? A kind of like, I'm making my cannibal romance movie, but I I I'm making it kind of funny. You know? Even though it's gross, there's something kind of arch.

不过前一个小时真的很有趣，因为我第二次看的时候，是在你看完之后，其他人的评价都出奇地高。对。而且这部电影的发行范围相当有限，尤其这还是茱莉亚·罗伯茨主演的。所以我看前一个小时时——重申下我可是卢卡的信徒，这就是我的个性。

So the first hour though and and it was very funny because the second time I saw it, it was after you'd seen it, everyone else the the reviews have been incredibly Yeah. And it's a pretty limited distribution, especially for a movie that stars Julia Roberts. So I went in in the first hour. And again, I'm Luca Pilled. That is my personality.

但我当时就觉得，哇，他有点东西。这部分还挺有意思的。前一个小时里，你知道，部分原因在于它美得离谱。那个公寓，就像她熟悉酒吧的那个场景。

But I was like, wow. He's kinda cooking. This is kinda fun. And the the first hour, you know, and part of it is it's like, it's absurdly beautiful. The apartment is, like Where she knows the bar.

没错。太惊艳了。

Yes. Amazing.

而且你看，那些细致入微的观察，服装细节，人物间的对话方式。比如克洛伊·塞维妮在酒吧那场戏，三杯下肚后关于这位小姐的趣谈。我当时就觉得，哦好吧，我知道这片子是拍给谁看的了——就是拍给我的。

And, you know, and well observed and the costumes and the details and the way they speak to each other. And, like, the the scene with Chloe Sevigny in three sheets, the bar funny about this miss. You know, I was like, oh, okay. So I know who we're speaking to. We're speaking to to me.

给年长些的观众。对。

To older yes.

是啊。

Yeah.

是的，对年长的人来说。

Yes. To older people.

这不是给22岁年轻人看的电影，是给45岁人群的。没错。

Is not a movie for 22 year olds. It's a movie for 45 year olds. Yes.

所以他在创作时有种不自觉的状态。

So there is, like, an unknowingness to the way that he's making it.

然后他就那样做了。

And then then he to that.

我同意你的观点。我完全认同它确实失败了。但你知道，那种笨拙感是存在的。嗯。

I agree with you. I agree that it doesn't. I completely completely agree that it falls flat on its face. But I you know, we're the leuka ness is there. Mhmm.

然后它就消失了。

And and then it goes away.

没错。他忍不住带入自己的制作设计理念，影片的打光方式很有趣——即使在那些奢华的奶油色环境里，画面也总带着种褪色感。朱莉娅·罗伯茨全程看起来都像刚睡醒或是刚吐过。

Yeah. He can't help but bring his sense of production design and the way that the film is lit is quite interesting where everything is kind of like even in these lush, like, cream colored environments, there's something kind of like washed out. Like, Julie Roberts looks like she just woke up or just threw up, like, the entire film.

没错。

Right.

尽管你知道，她是如此耀眼的明星。她的表演充满身体张力，效果非常出色。而他目前正处于一个有趣的转型阶段。比如你看《挑战者》和这部《酷儿》，他几乎是在试图剥离电影中所有的能量元素。《酷儿》同样是一部类似漫游公路片的心理幻想曲。

Even though, you know, she's such a striking star. She's she's doing a really physical performance in a way that's very effective. And, you know, he's on this interesting progression now. You like if you look at challengers and queer in this film, it's almost like he's trying to strip out everything that like, all of the energy from his movies. Queer is also this similarly kind of like ambling road movie that's like a psychological fantasia.

而这部电影则更务实，更深入细节。特别是接近结尾时，罗伯茨饰演的角色与阿德布里饰演的角色在停车场外进行了一场非常紧张的对话

And this is, like, a much more practical movie, like an in the weeds movie, especially, like, there's a near the end, there's a very tense confrontation between Roberts's character and Adebri's character where they're talking outside in a parking lot outside of

公寓楼下。你本来要讨论焦油场景——朱丽叶穿着西装外套严厉训斥学生们那段。是的，那段写得并不好。而且顺便说，哲学是文明的基石，同时也非常愚蠢。这就是我的理解。

an apartment. You were gonna talk about the tar scene when it is Juliet in a blazer just absolutely excoriating students for their Yeah. Well, it's which is not well written. And also, like, by the way, like philosophy is the foundation of civilization and also really stupid. So that that's kind of what I took away from that.

但说到哲学角。当她说完后突然来一句'马库斯来了'。朱莉娅·罗伯茨在这部电影里依然非常风趣出色。至少她和卢卡的表演带着某种幽默感，可惜剧本和其他演员的表现没能跟上。我们试试

But Philosophy corner. But when she finishes and she's just like, Marcus is here. Julia Roberts is still really funny and good in this movie. And there is like a sense of humor to at least what she and Luca are doing the again, the script and the other performances don't live up to. Let's try

再放一个剧透警告，或许你能帮我理解你对结局的看法，因为我真的没看懂。如果你还没看过或不想看，可以继续听，但我们要讨论结局了。好的。电影结尾揭示了几个事实：一是罗伯茨的角色和加菲尔德的角色确实有过婚外情，他们在某个时间点在一起过，这点在酒吧初遇场景中通过她对他的留恋表现得非常明显。

to put another spoiler warning about this because maybe you can help me understand what you thought the ending was because I really don't get it. And if you haven't seen it or don't want or or you don't intend to see it, you can keep listening, but we're gonna talk about the ending Right. The movie here. So at the end of the movie, we learn a couple of things. We learn, one, that Robert's character and Garfield's character did have an affair, that they were together at a certain point, which is very clearly insinuated in that first bar scene where she has a kind of longing towards him.

然后我们得知，由于他在她第二套公寓里睡觉时对待她的肢体接触方式

We then learn that because of the physical way that he treats her when she finds him sleeping in her second apartment

是的。

Yeah.

他很可能做了

That he probably did

对。

Yes.

实施了袭击。没错。极有可能，甚至几乎可以肯定，他就是被指控的这起事件的责任人。

Commit an assault. Yes. That it's more than likely, maybe almost certainly that he is responsible for this incident that is accused of.

就像Ayo Dibry饰演的角色说的那样，他越界了。

As Ayo Dibry's character says, like, he crossed the line.

对。是的。她因为偷了一个剧本，一张处方而被解雇了。

Right. Yeah. She is fired because she steals a script, a prescription.

是啊。我正想说，它们非常不同。

Yeah. Was gonna say, they're very different.

是的。我希望有人能偷走这个剧本，但她却从克洛伊·塞维妮饰演的角色办公室里偷了一张处方笺。她既是治疗师也是教授，而她

Yes. I wish someone would steal this script, but she steals a prescription page from Chloe Sevigny's character's office. She's a therapist and professor, and she

拿到精神科医生的药，因为她可以开处方药，她也确实这么做了。精神科医生。朱莉娅，那是受控物质。

gets pills psychiatrist because she can prescribe medication, which she does. Psychiatrist. Julia, it's a controlled substance.

对。

Yes.

因为茱莉亚·罗伯茨的角色一直遭受不明原因的疼痛发作

Because Julia Roberts is, like, having unexplained pain like attacks

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且在整部电影里频繁呕吐。所以她需要所谓的'好药'。

And barfing a lot throughout the movie. And so she needs the quote unquote good stuff.

没错。

Right.

但这张处方被标记了，因为你知道为什么吗？所以她被抓到了。克洛伊七十报告说她的终身教职——她没有被解雇，但终身教职

But the prescription is flagged because it's you know? And so she gets caught. Chloe seventy reports her tenure is she's not fired, but tenure

终身教职没戏了。

Tenure's off the table.

被无限期暂停。

Is paused indefinitely.

是的。她她她将不会获得终身教职。随后她被认定为不是德布里角色的盟友，于是德布里第二次去了《滚石》杂志。为了讲述她关于性侵事件的版本，这个故事随后被写成了一篇《滚石》杂志的长篇专题报道，这感觉明显是在影射《校园强奸案》那篇报道。是的。

Yes. She she she will not be getting tenure. She is then identified as not an ally to a Debri's character who then goes to Rolling Stone magazine For the second time. To give her side of this story of sexual assault, which is then, I guess, written in, a long feature in Rolling Stone magazine, which feels like a very obvious nod to A Rape on Campus. Yes.

那篇后来被揭穿的报道。对。我记得是2014年刊登在杂志上的专题故事，讲的是一个自称被强奸的人，我相信完全是编造的。对吧？

The since debunked Right. Feature story that ran, I think, in 2014 in the magazine about a person claiming to be raped that was, I believe, entirely invented. Right?

我不完全记得了，所以我们姑且说那篇报道存在虚假内容。是的。

I don't totally remember, so let's just say that it was There were falsehoods. Yes.

但在本剧中，那个故事应该是真实的。所以它意在唤起我们对已知事件的联想，并让我们进一步质疑环境和这些事件的真相到底是什么？

But in this case, that that story is meant to be true. So it's supposed to conjure this idea of something that transpired that we know about and then make us further question the environment and the what is the truth of these events?

没错。

Right.

然后我们最终了解到，罗伯茨饰演的角色实际上在很多年前，作为一个少女，曾与她父亲的一位挚友有过一段恋情，她深爱着这个人，但他却伤了她的心，因为他离开她去找了一个年龄更相配的女人。接着她向媒体爆料了这件事——等等，她是主动联系媒体还是进行了举报？

And then we then finally learn that Roberts's character, in fact, many years ago, as a teenage girl had an affair with her father, one of her father's best friends, and she was in love with this person, and he broke her heart because he left her for a woman who was more age appropriate. And then she went to the press and told the press Well, did she go to

是主动联系媒体还是进行了举报？

the press or she reported?

她...好吧。

She okay.

你懂我意思吗？

You know?

我们...我猜我不知道。剧本里是这么写的吗？

We we I guess I don't know. Is that what is that what they say?

我们不清楚。实际上我们并不确定，因为...

We don't know. We don't we don't actually know because

我们看见一份报纸。

We see a newspaper.

是啊。因为艾伯里去参加一个愉快的派对时去了洗手间，然后在橱柜里翻找。她本来在找卫生纸，但接着她像是在检查水龙头下面。那是什么鬼？我是说，我同意。

Yeah. Because Iowed Ebery goes to the bathroom at a lovely party and then is just rooting around in the cabinets. She's looking for toilet paper, but then she's, like, looking up under the taping of the thing. Fuck is that? I I mean, I agree.

100%同意。太奇怪了。那一幕有多少胡扯的内容？

100% agree. So bizarre. Many bullshit is that scene?

相当偷懒。我当时也在想，哇，藏得真好。

Quite lazy. I was also like, wow. Good hiding place.

所以这是个好藏处，但你为什么这么可爱？比如，你有第二套公寓。为什么那些东西不直接放在你的

So It is a good hiding, but like why are you even cute? Like, you have a second apartment. Why is that not that stuff not just in your

第二套公寓里。这是个很好的观点，因为后来某个时刻的写作真是糟糕透了。茱莉亚·罗伯茨烧掉了其他所有东西，但她似乎还有第二张照片，在码头公寓里又有一张那个男人的照片，再一次，这部电影就像是在说，有人看了焦油后就想，让我们

second It's a great point because then at some point Fucking terrible writing. Julia Roberts burns everything else, but it seems like she has like a second and she burns a photo of the guy but then she has a second photo at the Wharf apartment which once again like this movie would love to, you know, someone watch tar and then was like, let

试试这个。但我觉得这说法太宽容了。我是说

me try this. But I think that's generous. I mean

嗯，就像实际结构中那样，她在柏油路上拥有第二间公寓，所有事情都在那里发生。有个穿西装外套的场景，年轻一代中的某人因为对进步政治持有错误观点而遭到严厉斥责。

Well, just like in the actual structural there, she has the second apartment where all of the things happen in tar. There is a scene in a blazer where someone of the younger generation is excoriated for having incorrect opinions about, you know, progressive politics already.

确实有相似之处。我只是觉得它的目标略有不同。我们了解到她有过这段关系。

There's definitely similarities to it. I I just I think its aims are slightly different. And I so we learned that she had this relationship.

但我们是通过这种方式得知的：因为她再次发病被送进了医院。

But here's how we learned that is that because she has like another attack and she's hospitalized.

那是在被觉醒暴民围攻时

That's While being confronted by the woke mob

是的。

Yes.

所谓的校园外。

Quote unquote outside of the campus.

没错。字面意义上她被包围后昏倒了。后来诊断是穿孔性溃疡。而她的治疗师丈夫，她的分析师丈夫

Sure. Literally, she's surrounded and then she collapses. And then so it's perforated ulcers. And her therapist husband, her analyst husband

是的。由迈克尔·斯图巴克执导。斯图巴克。他简直玩得尽兴

Yes. Pulled by Michael Stuebark. Stuebark. He's just having a grand

绝对是在指挥约翰·亚当斯的同时还在做饭。

old Absolutely conducting John Adams and cooking.

一场我真心喜欢的荒诞表演。我不知道他参演了哪部电影。

Just a ridiculous performance that I really enjoyed. I don't know what movie he's in.

非常有趣。然后她在病床上给他讲了这个故事。她说，我编的。我爱过他。而他在短信里却说，不，他年纪更大。

Very funny. And then so she in like in the hospital bed tells him the story. And she's like, I made it up. I loved him. And he in the text is like, no, he was older.

无论你怎么想，这都是他的责任。就像你确实遭到了侵犯。然后她...然后她只说了一句我爱过他。接着他说，我爱你。

No matter what you think, it's his responsibility. Like you actually were assaulted. And then she and then all she says is I loved him. And then he says, I love you.

酷。对吧。

Cool. Right.

所以太棒了太棒了的主意。我们有那种哲学。那个场景并不好。

So Great great great ideas. We have that philosophy. That scene is not good.

唯一比那一幕更糟的是几年后的尾声部分。

What's only worse than that scene is the epilogue, which is some years later.

五年后。

Five years later.

在这个尾声里，埃德布里饰演的角色和罗伯茨饰演的角色在同一家餐厅重逢，而罗伯茨和加菲尔德饰演的角色曾在那里有过一场剑拔弩张的对话。显然这家餐厅

And in this epilogue, Edebri's character and Roberts's character meet up at the same restaurant where Roberts and Garfield's character had had a very tense discussion. Which is apparently

是纽黑文一家真实存在的老字号。

a a real, like, standby in New Haven.

好吧。

Okay.

这段剧情让我突然想吃印度菜了。

So And made me want Indian food.

此时我们得知，罗伯茨饰演的角色已成为另一所学校的院长。

At this point, we've learned that Roberts's character has become the dean of another school.

不。我想她现在是另一所学校的院长了？

No. I think she's become the dean at she's at another school?

她是耶鲁的院长吗？

Is she she's the dean at Yale?

那看起来确实像是另一个人的办公室。

That sure looks like the office of the other guy.

也许...也许就是这样。她在未获得终身教职后成为了耶鲁的院长

Maybe maybe maybe that's what it is. She's the dean of Yale after not being

人文学院的院长。

a tenured professor. Dean of humanities.

好吧。我

Okay. I

电影前面展示的是他的行政工作，不如思考有趣。听着，我不是...我不是负责人。

is presented earlier in the movie as his administration job and not as fun as thinking. What listen. I'm not I'm not charge.

重点在于

The point stands in

校园里的工作。而且她正在看一月份关于洛杉矶大火的新闻报道，因为现在是2025年1月。提醒一下，今天是1月9日。

work on campus. And also she's watching a news report about the LA fires from January because it's January 2025. Just to let you know, it's January 9.

所以不太理想。但我甚至不知道那是在评论什么。

So Not ideal. But I don't even know what that's a comment on.

我也不知道。她只是看着新闻，然后感叹道，哇，这太糟糕了。

I don't either. She's just watching it, and she's just like, wow. This is terrible.

然后他们共进午餐并进行了这次谈话，尽管他们之前有过巨大的争执。这两个人，而阿德布里的角色承认她曾经爱过她。

And then they meet for this lunch and they have this discussion even though they've had this world colossal falling out. These two people and and Adebri's character admits that she was in love with her.

但你没提到还有第二篇《滚石》文章，是艾欧的角色写的，内容大致是说我有过一个糟糕的导师，整篇文章都在猛烈抨击朱莉·罗伯茨的角色。

But you didn't mention that there's a second Rolling Stone piece that Io's character writes that is like about how I had like a bad mentor, and it's just about excoriating the Julie Roberts character.

那就是我指的那篇。

That was the one that I was referring to.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

因为那才是真正失控的部分。

Because that's the one that really spins out.

哦，当然。好吧。

Oh, sure. Okay.

罗伯茨的角色失控了。对。对。对。结果他们决定既往不咎，非常简短地讨论了电影中的事件，并谈到这对他们双方其实都有好处。

Spins out Roberts's character. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it turns out that, like, they're gonna let bygones be bygones and, like, very briefly discuss the events of the film and talk about how, like, it actually worked out well for both of them.

因为现在罗伯茨的角色成了院长，而德布里斯也在

Because now Roberts' character is the dean and and Debris successful in

她自己的方式上取得了成功。这太疯狂了。我觉得

her own way. It's insane. I think

这简直是精神病。这他妈是什么？

that this Psychotic. What the fuck is that?

我觉得这部分我总是选角失误。原因在于我认为这里应该有所暗示。剧本底下应该有很多潜台词工作要做。我是说，即便如此也不能成为借口。但实际情况并非如此。

I think this is this is the part where I always miscast. And it's just because I think that there are supposed to be something suggested. There's supposed to be like a lot of work under the under the text. I I mean, I still that still doesn't justify it. But like that's not happening.

她遭受性侵同时还是个反社会者？我猜是吧。还是说这两者之间存在某种关联？

Sexually was assaulted and is also a sociopath? I guess so. Or is that does it communicate somehow

她穿着打扮完全不同了。

that She's dressed totally differently.

这太混乱了，因为就像，是这个事件激发她变得更强硬了吗？还是说她本性如此，一直对罗伯茨的角色怀有《天才雷普利》式的心机？完全说不清楚。心理描写太混乱了。

It's so it's so muddled because it's like, did this event just energize her to then become more hard bitten? Is it that this was always this way and that she had this kind of talented Mr. Ripley thing going on with Roberts' character? Like, it's totally unclear. The the psychology is so messy.

我完全不明白这段想表达什么。

I have no idea what it's supposed to do.

而且而且还不聪明，老兄。

And and then not smart, man.

朱莉娅不...我同意。然后朱莉娅的表演很复杂。但是，这个，就像是...

Julia no. I agree. And then Julia's playing it, like, complicated. But, like, I but but but this is, like, so it's like

你知道吗？我们一直都知道。姐妹们，我们必须团结一致，才能度过这个疯狂的历史时刻。我就想，这他妈到底

of, like, you know what? We knew all along. Like, us gals, we gotta stick together so that we can ride out this crazy moment in history. I'm like, what the fuck is

是想表达什么？我真的不知道。

this trying to say? I really don't know.

我不喜欢它。是的，我不喜欢。虽然我觉得里面有些东西挺酷的。

I didn't like it. Yeah. I didn't like it. I thought there was cool things about it.

我喜欢前一个小时的部分。

I liked the first hour.

是啊。

Yeah.

有点出乎意料。我当时觉得，哇，够劲爆。然后发现其实很蠢。

Kinda despite myself. I was like, oh, spicy. And then it was really very silly.

它的表现不太好。是的。不过，而且很明显完全没有那种害怕错过的心理因素

It's not doing very well. Yeah. However, and I and there is clearly no FOMO factor whatsoever with

这部电影。

this movie.

对吧？因为这可是卢卡·瓜达尼诺的作品，连车祸场面都不会显得廉价。画面精美，配乐出色，风格独特。

Right? Because it's not even like a car crash because it's Luca Guadino. So, like, it looks good. Music is good. It's got style.

那张条纹沙发，老兄。我...我太想要了。我想要斯图巴格办公室里的那张条纹沙发。

That striped couch, man. I I need it. I need the striped couch in Stuebarg's office.

我想要整套厨房。就在奥古斯特旁边。我们会搞定的，总会有办法的。

I need the whole kitchen. Next to August. We'll get on it. We'll figure it out.

我是不是该像她在派对上那样穿件白色夹克？

Should I be wearing like a white jacket like she's wearing at the party, you know?

如果你想那么打扮，可能还得把头发染成金色。

You might have to dye her hair blonde if you wanna do that.

我知道她的造型很有四十年代风格。但我...我实在模仿不来。

I know she has like really like forties style. I I can't really do that.

群体因素。我是在媒体试映会上看的这部电影。好吧，放映厅里气氛并不热烈。

Communal factor. I saw this at a press screening. Okay. Wasn't a ton of energy in the room.

我是在Menace电影节上看的，当时大家都很恼火，因为我们在雨中等了很久。后来我又在伯班克16号中午场看的，那里都是真正的影迷。我得说观众都很安静。

I saw it at the Menace Film Festival and everyone was really pissed off because we waited in the rain for a long time. And then I saw this midday Burbank 16 where the real heads go. I would say everyone was pretty quiet.

对。家庭观影体验会不同吗？我有点想再看一遍，看看能不能搞明白这电影到底在讲什么。好吧，我觉得自己虽然不一定擅长理解具体的情节机制，但对角色心理动机的把握还算不错。

Yes. The is this different at home factor? I kinda wanna watch this again so that I can see if I can figure out what the hell is going on. Okay. I feel that I'm fairly good at understanding, if not plot mechanics specifically, psychological intention of characters.

比如，我认为这确实是我解读电影时比较擅长的方面。但这部片子想表达什么，我真的摸不着头脑。

Like, I actually think that that is something I am pretty good at when it comes to reading movies. Yeah. And I don't really know what this movie is trying to say.

我...我也不知道。

I I don't either.

那或许在家再看一遍？

So maybe one more viewing at home?

好啊。

Sure.

我该怎么办？因为我不是真的想拥有这部电影。卢卡那一堆会怎么处理？

What am I gonna do? Because I don't really wanna own this movie. What happens to the Luka stack?

那是你和你的心魔之间的事。你肯定会买的。他们会发行吗？

It's that's between you and your demons. You're gonna buy it. Are they gonna release it?

这是亚马逊米高梅的片子。所以我不知道。

It's Amazon MGM. So I don't know.

好吧。

Right.

我们走着瞧吧。对，这不算成功。是啊，我们得把茱莉亚·W搞定。

We shall see. Yeah. It's not a success. Yeah. And we gotta get we gotta get Julia w.

你懂吧？嗯。

You know? Yeah.

我是说，我不清楚。她挺好的。

I mean, I don't know. She's fine.

她很好。

She's fine.

她会...她看起来很开心。她依然非常美丽。你知道吗？

She'll be she's she seems happy. She's still very beautiful. You know?

在讨论丽贝卡·米勒之前，我们应该先简单聊聊斯科塞斯先生？这部作品耗时五年多，始于疫情期间。嗯。米勒告诉我，她在完成关于父亲的电影后就有了这个想法。就像，你接下来想深入探索什么？

Should we talk about mister Scorsese briefly before Rebecca Miller? So this was made over five years, started during COVID. Mhmm. Miller told me she just had the idea after making the film about her father. Like, what would you wanna spend some time digging into next?

她告诉我她看的第一部马丁电影是《好家伙》，而且她直到很久以后才成为他的忠实影迷。她丈夫丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯当然与他合作过。我觉得这部纪录片有几点做得非常出色：第一，惊人的私密性。是的。

She told me the first Marty movie she ever saw was Goodfellas and that she was not, like, an allegiant of his until much later. She her husband, of course, has has worked with him, Daniel Day Lewis. I thought this did a couple things really, really well. One, shockingly intimate. Yeah.

我从青少年时期就密切关注斯科塞斯的职业生涯。这部电影里有很多我从未听闻的内容。除此之外——我不想为还没看的人剧透——第二点是，她几乎采访了所有人，除了乔·佩西。

I've been following Scorsese's career extremely closely since I was a teenager. There's a bunch of stuff in this movie I've never heard or seen before. Then in addition to that, and I don't wanna spoil what that is for people who haven't seen it yet. The second thing is that he she gets basically everyone except Joe Pesci a talk. Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

差不多。有少数例外，但基本上所有主要人物都...

Almost. There were a couple but yes, basically, all of the major

角色。伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼。太不可思议了。这部纪录片的主角。比如她曾嫁给谁。

characters. Isabella Rossellini. Incredible. The star of the documentary. Like who she he was married to.

是啊。有时候对他还挺严厉的。

Yeah. Just like being quite severe about him at times.

但也很可爱。非常

But also lovely. Very

深情。真的很有见地。比如，你知道，这是个矮个子男人。明白吗？我们可别忘了这一点。

loving. Really insightful. Like, you know, this is a short man. You know? Like, let let us not forget.

我记得她用了‘微不足道’这个词。

I believe she used the word miniscule.

最精彩的部分是她说的，我记得有一天我问马蒂，你真的整天就在想我们是好人还是坏人？我们为什么在这里？你脑子里全是这些吗？他说，是的。

The other part the best part is when she was like, you know, I I remember asking Marty one day, you know, do you really just think about, like, are we good? Are we bad? What are we here for all the time? Is that what's going on in your head? And he's like, yes.

你脑子里在想什么？她说，午饭吃什么？那真是太棒了。

What's going on in your head? She's like, what happened for lunch? It was it was great.

那部作品非常非常出色。已故的罗比·罗伯逊在影片中出镜，他被视为马丁最亲密的朋友之一，曾陪伴他度过七八十年代那些极其黑暗的岁月。杰伊·考克斯——许多人知道他才是马丁真正的挚友——这位《时代》杂志记者、影评人后来转型为编剧，在电影中如同基石般贯穿始终。

It was very, very good. Robbie Robertson, who's since passed, appears in the film. He's considered, you know, one of his closest friends and somebody who was with him during some really dark times in the seventies and eighties. Jay Cox, who many people know as his his actual best friend, you know, Time magazine journalist and film critic and then later screenwriter. And he's, like, kind of the keystone to the movie in a lot of ways.

每当米勒导演陷入'该如何转折'的困境时，镜头就会切到杰伊·考克斯，仿佛在说'然后这件事必须发生'。这种处理非常巧妙。而最让我着迷的是，这部纪录片专门剖析电影人如何将个人经历投射到作品中——

Like, every time Miller's like, how do I pivot out of here? He she just cuts to Jay Cox, be like, and then this needed to happen Yeah. Which works really well. And then just my favorite thing of all time, which is movie documentaries about filmmakers specifically analyzing their work and how it correlates to their personal life. Right.

对吧？类似《德·帕尔玛》纪录片就做得很好，但那部只有100分钟，这个可是五小时。

Right? There's like some examples of this, like De Palma, the De Palma doc does this really well, but that movie is like a hundred minutes. This is five hours.

太棒了。它不仅梳理了整个职业生涯，更以电影人特有的专业视角解析作品——你能实时看到那些精妙的剪辑如何串联起创作与人生，简直像在上电影大师课。

Yeah. It's awesome. And so it goes through the career. And it does also it not only analyzes the like, it it understands the work so deeply that like the editing and what it's pulling together and just what you're seeing in real time. You know, there is like a film school.

由真正的电影人操刀。导演非常坦率地谈论人生际遇与作品的关联，当时的身边人也提供了多元视角。它不只是聚焦单部电影，更纵横串联起整个创作生涯的其他作品。

It's made by a real filmmaker. Yes. So, you're understanding and he is very open to talking about what's going on in his life, how it connects to the work. The people who are around him at that time are also giving their, you know, their perspective. And then it is bringing together not just the movie in question, but other films from the career.

嗯。无论是重复出现的镜头语言还是主题母题，都经过极具专业眼光的剪辑处理。

Mhmm. And, you know, whether it's like recurring shots or recurring themes. It it is edited and really knowledgeable.

没错。还有其他特别打动你的细节想补充吗？

Yes. Anything else that you wanted to put cite that you liked about it?

这个孩子让我想到了关于‘女儿爸爸’的另一件事。因为他有女儿，而且他的女儿们也参与其中。这真是对为人父母非常有趣的描绘。

The the kid I think this was another thing that made me think about girl dads. And because he has daughters, and his daughters are in it. And it is a really interesting portrait of parenthood.

跨越世代。

Across generations.

作为艺术家跨越世代。你知道吗，我注意到这部纪录片中除了斯科塞斯先生本人外，其他主要人物都是女性。所以我觉得丽贝卡·米勒确实在他身上发现了一些东西，但同时

Across generations being an artist. You know, I I noticed to me all of the stars of the documentary of the sitting besides mister Scorsese himself were women. And, you know, so I I think Rebecca Miller really, like, figured something out around him, but also

这对你来说很聪明。我是电影中的塞尔玛·斯库马，就像

This is a very smart to you. I'm Thelma Schoonmaker in the movie and like

但她有剪辑室，只是向你展示东西。这太聪明了。是的，真的很酷。

But then she has like the editing bay and it's just showing you stuff. That's so smart. Yeah. It's really cool.

是啊。我甚至喜欢看他十岁时画故事板的样子，就像‘电影在我脑海里’。

Yeah. I I loved even just seeing him storyboarding at like 10 years old and being like, I have the movie in my head.

完全正确。他还说‘我现在还是这样拍’，然后镜头切换到所有那些拍摄画面。

Totally. And he's like, I still do this shot, and then it cuts to all the shots.

那东西简直太棒了。是啊。它是

That stuff is just amazing. Yeah. It's

太酷了。

so cool.

好的。那么，如果大家应该看看这个。它非常值得你花时间，而且你会爱上这种关于艺术家的罕见深度。你知道，通常这类内容会更紧凑些。所以如果你想了解更多，现在让我们进入与丽贝卡·米勒的对话环节。

Okay. Well, if I people should check this out. It's very worth your time if And you love pretty rare for something about an artist like this to be this expansive. You know, usually, it's usually much tighter. So if you wanna hear more about it, let's go now to my conversation with Rebecca Miller.

丽贝卡·米勒在这里。我们来聊聊斯科塞斯先生。丽贝卡，我想我们可以从你第一次看马丁·斯科塞斯电影的经历开始。你还记得是哪部吗？

Rebecca Miller is here. We're here to talk about mister Scorsese. Rebecca, I thought we could start by hearing about the first Martin Scorsese film that you ever saw. Do you remember what it was?

首先，我真正记得看的是《好家伙》。所以不是早期作品。之后我才回头补看了他早期的电影。

First, the one actually that I remember seeing is actually Goodfellas. So it wasn't one of the early films. I had to go back and experience the earlier films after that.

有意思。那么是有某种原因让你没在七八十年代关注他的作品吗？还是纯属偶然？

Interesting. So was there, like, a reason that you didn't check out his work in the seventies or eighties or just just happenstance?

说实话我不清楚。我...我不知道为什么。那时候我是个画家，被其他类型的电影吸引。我...真的不确定怎么回事。

You know, I don't know. I I don't know why. I I I think I was I was a painter at that time. I was drawn to other kinds of films. I didn't, I you know, I'm not really sure what happened.

但那时我在某种程度上对他们并不开放。而当我一旦打开那扇门，我就被他们震撼了，一遍又一遍地观看。《纯真年代》对我来说也是一部非常重要的电影。《愤怒的公牛》对我影响巨大，诸如此类。然后，你知道的，我把它们都看完了。

But then I wasn't open to them in some way. And then when I once I opened that door, I was just kind of blown away by them and and got you know, watched them again and again. And then Age of Innocence was also a really important film for me. Raging Bull was huge for me and so on and so on. And then, you know, I watched them all.

跟我聊聊构思这部电影的过程。我知道你最初是想拍一部你认为的常规长纪录片，结果变成了这部非常宏大的作品。它是从哪里开始的？你又是如何开启与马丁·斯科塞斯的对话的？‘我想拍一部关于你的电影。’

Tell me about developing the idea to make a film. I know you originally wanted to make what you thought would be a regular feature length doc that has become this very expansive piece. You know, where did it start? How do you even broker a conversation? Martin Scorsese, I'd like to make a film about you.

你能详细说说这个项目实际启动的一些细节吗？

Can you talk me through some of the actual, you know, details of getting this thing off the ground?

嗯，我有种奇怪的直觉，觉得应该拍一部关于他的电影。我和我的制片搭档戴蒙·卡达索尼聊过，我说我想再拍一部纪录片。我真的很喜欢拍纪录片的实践，某种程度上也是在为故事片做准备。然后他问，你想拍谁？我就脱口而出马丁·斯科塞斯。

Well, I had this weird instinct that I should make a film about him. I I had a conversation with, with my producing partner, Damon Cardasonis, and I said, like, I'd like to make another documentary. I really like the the the practice of making documentary and sort of alongside preparing features. And, then he said, who would be your person that you'd wanna do? And I just had this I just said Martin Scorsese.

而且，你知道的，我和马蒂之间有一种关系，在拍《纽约黑帮》时我们有点社交往来。但我们并没有持续的社交关系。不过他曾推荐我看一些上世纪四十年代英国电影的旁白部分，因为我要拍《个人速度》，那部电影有很多旁白，我当时很紧张。所以我向他请教，而他很喜欢给这类建议。于是他给了我一些电影参考。

And, you know, Mart Marty and I had a kind of relationship where we had this, you know, a slightly social relationship back when they were making Gangs of New York. And, but we didn't have, like, an ongoing social relationship. But he had recommended some voice over films for me to watch from the, like, the nineteen forties English films because I was gonna make personal velocity, which had a lot of voice over, and I was very nervous about that film. And so I asked him for advice, and he loves to give that kind of advice. So he gave me some films, you know, to look at.

后来我给他看了那部电影，他给了我一些意见，其中有一条特别好的建议。不知怎么的，他又看了我的其他电影并给出意见。这就成了我们的关系模式。我们社交往来不多，但他通过我的电影很了解我，后来发现他还读过我的书。

And then, I showed him the film, and he gave me a little bit of notes. Like, he gave me, well, one really good note. So then he I somehow, he ended up watching other films of mine and giving me notes. And that became our relationship. I didn't have much of a social relationship, but he knew me sort of very well through my films, and then it turned out he'd read my books.

所以当我说要拍他时，这些背景已经存在了。我觉得我或许能对他有所洞察，因为我对他精神生活很好奇，想知道这在他的电影中扮演了什么角色——虽然并不明显。我只是觉得能和他一起探索这个会很好。

So that was already in the background when I said that. And I thought, like, I feel like I could maybe have an insight into him because I also had a feeling like I was really curious about his spiritual life and how it what role it had to play in his movies, which it wasn't obvious. I just thought it'd be really nice to to be able to explore that with him.

你提到他对电影史有着百科全书般的了解，并能提供参考观点。他对导演肖像这类纪录片有什么看法吗？要知道，这类纪录片本身就不多，尤其是关于在世电影人的。你们有讨论过这种形式吗？

You mentioned that he has this encyclopedic knowledge of film history and could give you reference points. Did he have a point of view on the director portrait? You know, this is a kind of a type of documentary, and there are not actually a a ton of great ones, especially not made about filmmakers while they're still alive. Like, did you talk about that form at all with him?

我们没讨论过这个，他只是总说'我不知道你在做什么'这类话。不，更像是他根本不想知道。实际上项目最初是部故事片，后来才扩展的。记得我最早采访布莱恩·德·帕尔玛时——他是我除马蒂外首批采访对象之一——他就说'这题材拍不成故事片'。

We didn't talk about how he just was always saying, like, I don't know what you're doing. Like no. It was just sort of like he didn't wanna know kind of. And and and actually, the beginning, it started as a feature and then started to grow. And, you know, when I first interviewed Brian De Palma, who was one of the first people I interviewed apart from Marty, I said you know, he said, you know, you can't do this in a feature film.

当时我还坚持说'不，我觉得能行，我有把握'。结果一年后他也改口说'确实不行'。

And at that time, I said, yeah. No. I could I think I can do it. I I I have a sense of how I can do it. And, of course, a year later, he was like, no.

他说'你最多拍到《出租车司机》那段，完整呈现根本不可能'——当然他说得完全正确。我确实做不到。

You're gonna get to taxi driver. You cannot do the whole thing. And he was completely right, of course. You know? Like, I totally couldn't do it.

幸运的是我及时调整方向，他们同意把片长从两小时扩展到五小时。所以其实我没和他深入讨论，因为连我自己都不确定要怎么做。最初提案时我给他写过信，是通过我认识的纪录片制片人玛格丽特·菩提转交的。

And luckily, I was able to change tack, and they allowed me to make it five hours instead of, like, an hour and a half or two hours. But so so I didn't really talk to him because I also didn't know exactly what I was gonna do. I mean, I wrote him a letter when I first proposed it. I wrote him a letter. I I I proposed it to his doc producer who I knew, Margaret Bodhi.

她转达说'让她写信说明'，于是我在信里写道：'我想采用立体派的手法，从合作者、家人等各个角度来呈现完整的人物肖像'——这想法当然很笼统，但这就是起点。

And so she talked to him, he said, let her write a letter. So I wrote a letter. And, basically, in the letter, I just said, I wanna take an approach like a Cubist approach where I like, just looking at you from all different angles, like different you know, both collaborators, family, all the different angles to make a human portrait. And that was kinda my but, of course, that's pretty vague. So that's where I began.

当时我确实没想清楚，连具体采访对象都没确定。

And I didn't really know, and I didn't know exactly who was gonna be in it either.

看起来你和他进行了多次深入交谈。我知道你为此已经筹备多年。作为记者，你是如何决定采访顺序的？有时候你可能不会首选直接采访核心人物，而是先接触其他人，最后再与他们坐下来详谈。

It seemed like you had a number of sit downs with him. I know you were been working on this for a number of years. Like, how did you even determine what was the right order to talk to people in? Like, as a journalist, you sometimes don't necessarily want to speak to the primary subject first. You might wanna talk to a bunch of people first and then sit down with them.

你是如何策划最佳访谈时机的？

How did you kinda strategize around when was the right time to have sit downs with them?

实际上我最初就是从采访他开始的。你可能不知道，每次他穿的服装背后都代表着两次长时间访谈——这五年间总共进行了约二十小时的采访。最初疫情期间我们在我家门廊开始，后来逐渐转到他办公室，最终进入他书房的核心区域，这正是我期望达成的目标。

Well, I definitely started with him. And there were, you know, more than it looks like because each sort of outfit that he's wearing represents two very long interviews. So there were, about twenty hours of interviews altogether over this five year period. So and we would we started on my porch outside because it was the beginning of the pandemic. And then, you know, we gradually you know, graduated to his office and then eventually to his inner sanctum, his, study, which was my which was my goal.

是的，我特别着迷于他原生家庭的结构关系——母亲、儿子、兄弟、父亲之间的纽带，以及整个社区氛围。随着采访深入，我逐渐萌生念头：必须采访他的朋友们。

And so I but but yeah. So I I really wanted to kind of like, I was fascinated by the geometry of his first family, like his original family, you know, the mother to to son to brother to father, etcetera. The neighborhood. Then I started to get these ideas about, okay. So early on, thought, well, it would be really great to get the friends.

因为我意识到这些朋友对他成为艺术家的过程至关重要，他们的声音必须被听见。联系到这些朋友对我来说意义重大，可能是整个过程中最令人兴奋的部分。

Because I could tell that the friends were essential to how he had become an artist and the voices. And I thought we've gotta hear those voices somehow. So getting in touch with the friends was an immense for me, it was, like, maybe the most exciting thing.

这正是电影中最打动我的部分。你甚至需要与马丁协商这个安排——让他童年最亲密的伙伴，那些见证过他脆弱时刻的朋友们坦诚讲述？我猜你是这样推进的。

It's one of my favorite aspects of the movie. I'm I'm was so fascinated by that choice. Mean, you even have to broker that with Martin and say, I want your childhood closest friends who know you from your most vulnerable moments as a young person to speak openly about this? Like, I I assume that's how you go about approaching it.

确实如此。我和他沟通过，毕竟我没有那些朋友的联系方式。除了萨尔瓦多（比如莎莉·嘉嘉），其他人的联系方式都是偶然获得的。

I did. I talked to him. I said I because, of course, I didn't have their number. So, I mean, like, you know, apart from Salvatore, like Sally Gaga, I nobody had his number. That was a complete accident.

但其他所有人，他仍然保持着联系。罗伯特·德尼罗带来一个人时，马蒂其实很高兴。我想因为他天生就是个人类学家，喜欢保留社区、保留这些人作为一种历史记录的想法。他甚至想要一些片段自己保存，因为这些人的言谈和记忆到如今已是真正的历史了？

But everybody else, he was, you know, he was still in touch with. There was one guy that Robert De Niro brought. Marty was actually delighted by that. I think because he's such an anthropologist by nature that he liked the idea of preserving the neighborhood, preserving these people almost as a historical thing. And he was like, can I have he wanted some of the footage just for himself to have it as as because the people the way these people talk and their memories are really history by this point?

而且时代变了。所以这很罕见。已经很少见了。但他强烈意识到会有两次聚会——一次在罗马咖啡馆，另一次在一家你知道的餐厅里。

And, you know, times have changed. And so it's rare. It's rare already. And but he had a very strong sense of, like, there were two gonna be two sit downs. One was in a cafe Roma, and one was in a restaurant that you know?

参与的人各不相同，不是所有人都互相认识。他非常明确谁该和谁坐在一起等等。那些自然流淌的对话非常精彩，部分原因在于他精心策划了这一切。后来我还去佛罗里达采访了罗伯特·乌里科拉、约翰·比沃纳和萨尔瓦托。

And there were different people, and they those different people you know, not everybody went with everybody else. And he was very you know, he was clear about that, about who should be sitting with who and so on. And the conversations and, kind of stemmed were were wonderful. And partly the reason was that I think he had kind of curated that. So he wanted and then I went to Florida to go and, interview Robert Uricola and John Bivona and then Salvatore.

他的个人生活并非总是井井有条。这部纪录片对他进行了极为深刻的刻画。作为他多年的忠实影迷，我听过关于他疯狂岁月或感情关系的零星传闻。但令人惊讶的是，他似乎能坦然谈论许多往事——恋爱对象、至交好友。你是否感觉某个瞬间他的心防卸下了？或者他原本就不打算对生活的敏感部分设防？

You know, his personal life is has not always been neat and tidy. And you this is a tremendously revealing portrait of him. I I have a huge fan of his work and have been studying him closely just as a fan for years and years. And you hear, like, faint whispers of aspects of crazy times in his life or his relationships, but it's extraordinary how comfortable it seems he is talking about a lot of this stuff, people he was in relationships with, extremely close friends. Did you feel like there was a moment where like a wall came down or there was a sense that there was not the guard was not going to be up around some of the more sensitive aspects of his life?

确实，我们之间是逐步建立信任的。因为这本质上是一场对话。如你所说，起初我并不了解他的私生活。虽然我深入研究过他的电影，也研究过相关影响作品，但仍有大量空白。

Definitely, it was a gradual relationship that was built between us, you know, because there's so much of this is it's really a conversation. I didn't know, like you were saying, I really don't know very much about his personal life. I knew about I I had studied by this time the films very closely. I I felt like I knew them well, and I I had studied the films that I thought were relevant to the to the to his films and so on, you know, the influences. But there was a lot I didn't know.

所以我所有提问都是真诚的。我想他决定与我合作时，就做好了坦诚的准备。最初是个决定，随着时间推移建立起信任后，他就放开了。而且他也了解我的作品。

So all the questions I'm asking him are genuine questions. Like, you know, I and he I think I think that once he decided to go with me, he made a decision that he was gonna be pretty honest. I think that there was an initial decision. And then as time went on, there was a trust that was built, and he just decided you know? But he'd also like I said, he knew my work.

他看过我之前的纪录片，这影响了他的决定。其他参与者似乎也被他的坦诚感染了——通过我转述他谈话的方式，他们意识到'好吧，可以这样'。

He knew my previous documentary. So it was like, that's, I think, what informed his decision. I you know? And then other people too, like, somehow he's got infected by his honesty, I think, a little bit. And sensed because of the way I was talking about what he had talked to me about, they knew, oh, okay.

所以他这么做了。他已经和她谈过这些事。然后他们也开始和我讨论。

So he's done that. He's talked to her about this stuff. So then they were talking to me also about it.

是啊。你的可信度在那时得到了验证。

Yeah. You had your credibility stamped through that.

对，对，对。因为大家都不想，你知道的，冒犯他或越界。明白吗？

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because because everybody wouldn't wanna, you know, insult him or or or transgress. You know?

但等他们意识到，哦，这是另一种情况时，态度就转变了。

But then once they realized that, oh, this is a different kind of situation, then it changed.

所以斯科塞斯的作品，你知道，是许多宏大理念的交汇。你已经提到了信仰、罪恶、暴力、激情、压抑所有这些沉重的主题。美国，许多宏大的理念。在他的作品中，有什么特别触动你，让你觉得未被充分探讨或希望成为文章重点的内容吗？

So Scorsese's work, you know, it's a convergence of a lot of big ideas. You mentioned faith already and guilt and violence and passion and repression and all of this heavyweight stuff. America, a lot of big ideas. Was there something that spoke to you about his work that you felt was unexplored or that you wanted to be a big focus of the piece?

嗯，最初，我对信仰与暴力非常感兴趣。一个仍透过天主教视角看待事物的人是如何处理这些的？这如何运作？与罪人的关系是怎样的？明白吗？

Well, I initially, I was really interested in faith and violence. How a Catholic somebody who's still, you know, looking at things through a Catholic lens is approaching these things. How does that work? What was the relationship to the sinner? You know?

然后，像那些问题，就是我最初的切入点，因为我觉得，嗯，我还没见过有人深入探讨过这个，至少据我所知。当然，我并非看过或读过所有相关材料，但我感觉确实存在探讨的空间。另外，我也对他生活中的女性角色很感兴趣。尤其是他的母亲。

And, like, the the those those questions, like and I and and that was the my my initial road in because I thought, well, I don't I haven't really seen that explored deeply, you know, as far as I know. I mean, not that I've seen absolutely everything and read absolutely everything, but I just felt like there was there were you know? And then I was interested in his you know, in the females in his life. You know? I was really interested in his mother.

他的母亲是个关键角色，感谢上帝在他的纪录片中被记录了下来。还有另一部，你知道的，九十年代拍摄的关于他和他父母的作品。那种声音，那种个性，我觉得真的至关重要。她...她是个超凡脱俗的人物，确实拥有，我认为，艺术家的气质。明白吗？

His mother is a essential character who thank God was captured in his documentary. And then there's another, you know, additional one that was taken done in the nineties of him and his mother and his father. That voice, that personality, I feel like is really key. Her the the the the she's a larger than life figure and really has, I think, the personality of an artist. You know?

就像，她...她就是这样一个充满魅力的人物。

Like, she's she's she's just an electric figure.

是啊。她在《好家伙》里是个画家这点很妙。你知道，她是个创作艺术的人，这似乎像是他在向我们传达，他在电影的那部分从她那里得到了些什么。

Yeah. There's something wonderful about her being a painter in Goodfellas. You know, that she is a person who makes art that, you know, it seems to be him almost like communicating to us that he's getting something from her in that part of the movie.

绝对如此。我想...我想他真的...我认为他确实从他母亲那里继承了很多...他...他艺术家的那一部分。

Absolutely. I think I think it really I think he really did get a lot of who his his his the artist part of him from his mother.

我对电影中的杰伊·考克斯很着迷。感觉他就像是谎言检测器。每当需要有人指出真相时，你总是以如此有趣的方式运用他。跟我聊聊，你知道的，关于像他这样的朋友跨越时间的概念，以及他们如何不仅能反映他作为人的本质，还能以如此批判性的方式谈论他的作品。

I was fascinated by Jay Cox in the movie. It feels like he's almost like the bullshit detector. Like, every time you need somebody to be like, here's what's really going on, you used him in such interesting ways. Tell me a little bit about, you know, the idea of a friend like him over periods of time and the way that they can speak to his not just who he is as a person, but his work in such critical terms.

嗯，你知道，他...我知道杰伊确实是他最好的朋友。明白吗？乔·莫雷尔是他儿时最好的朋友。而他...他真是太棒了。

Well, you know, he I knew that Jay was really his best friend. You know? You know? Joe Morale was his best friend as growing up as a kid. And he and he's so wonderful.

他就是那个戴着有色眼镜、在酒吧里的那位。他非常直率。然后是杰伊，他就像...我见证了他经历的一切。我也认识杰伊，因为曾和他合作写作而逐渐了解他。所以我相当了解他这个人的本质。

He's the one with the sort of tinted glasses with the bar. He's like, so frank. And then there's Jay, who is like I saw him through everything. And I also knew Jay, had come to know Jay because I was writing something with him. So I knew him as a person quite well.

所以我们之间确实存在某种默契。我感觉，是的。我几乎想要为观众重现那些场景，让他们真正身临其境，真正与德尼罗和他一起在医院里，真正与卡萨维蒂同在。不是通过那些宏大时刻，而是设法让人们感觉他们确实经历过。这很难，因为在纪录片中，尤其是当一个人在谈论五十年前的事情时，很难重新获得那种切身的体验感。

And so there was a certain rapport there between us. And I felt like and, yeah. He's just I wanted to kind of almost, like, reenact like, recreate scenes for the audience, like, to really be there, to really be in the hospital with De Niro and him, to really be, like, there with, you know, Cassavetes. Without all these big moments, but to somehow, like, make people feel like they had actually experienced it. It's hard because, like, in documentaries, especially when somebody who's, like, fifty years on talking about something, it's like the it's it's hard to get back into a feeling of, like, visceral experience.

嗯。这正是我想要的。

Mhmm. And that's really what I want.

我也很好奇硬币的另一面，那就是真相。你觉得你得到了多少真相？因为随着时间的推移，尤其是在演艺圈，神话制造是其中的一部分。你如何判断你得到的是真实发生的事情，还是经过修饰的版本？你明白我的意思吗？

I'm curious about the other side of that coin too, which is the truth. Like, how much do you feel you're getting the truth? Because as time passes, and especially in show business, myth making is a part of this. Like, how do you navigate whether you feel like you're getting what actually happened, what's been massaged? You know you know what I mean?

是的，当然。我是说，但真相到底是什么呢？真相有很多层面。我对发生的事情的真相，别人的真相，会因为观点的不同而略有不同，对吧？

Yeah. Of course. I mean but, you know well, what is the truth anyway? The truth is that, like, it's there's so many shades of truth. My truth about what happened, somebody else's truth, it it slightly shifts, right, because of point of view.

我称之为肖像的原因之一是想明确这是我对他的描绘。没有天使做过某种绝对的作品。这是我所理解的真相。但关于马蒂的是，他是我见过的最诚实面对自己的人。他真的对自己很诚实。

And one of the things the reasons I called it a portrait is I wanted to be clear that this is my portrait of him. There isn't, like, an angel that did some kind of, like, absolute piece of work. It's it's my truth as I understood it. But the thing about Marty is, like, he is the most self honest person that I've ever met. Like, he's really honest with himself.

他不会假装自己是别人。这是一件非常了不起的事情，我想我从中学到了很多。你知道吗？我认为你可以在他的作品中看到这一点。他作品中的某种无情，某种程度上源于他对自己的诚实。

He's not pretending to himself to be other than he is. And that's an extraordinary thing, and I've learned a lot from that, I think. You know? Like, just and I think you can see it in his work. Like, the mercilessness of his work to some degree comes from his own honesty to himself.

所以，我想这个问题的答案是，首先，你要努力与你的主要对象进行诚实的对话，同时从不同的角度获取这些观点。然后希望你能创造出尽可能接近真相的东西，如果真相存在的话。

And, you know, so the answer to that question, I guess, is like you just try, first of all, to have an honest conversation with your main subject, but also get these points of view from different vantage points. And then hope that you're creating something that's close to what what as close to the truth as far as truth can exist is.

这里面最难搞定的是谁？因为确实有几个人你很少看到他们会坐下来参与纪录片拍摄。

Who is the most difficult person to nail down for this? Because you definitely got a few people that you don't see sitting for a lot of documentaries.

说实话，我丈夫可没那么容易配合。

My husband was not that easy. I have to tell you.

我很高兴能在片子里看到他。

I was happy to see him in it.

这可不是件容易事。他当时就那种'嗯...'的态度，主要是因为他真的不喜欢做这类事情。他觉得，你知道，自己没什么可补充的。整个过程都很费劲，但我特别庆幸他最终还是答应了。

It was not a slam dunk. He was like yeah. Only because he's just like, ugh, you know, he doesn't really love doing that kind of thing. He doesn't he he feels that, you know, that any he can't add anything. It's like a whole thing, but I'm so glad that he did it.

他...他确实挺难搞的，明白吗？就像你看到的，乔·佩西其实也没接受采访。不过好在早期有些关于这些人的精彩访谈资料。某种程度上来说，保留他们那个时期的原始影像反而更合适。

He he was, tricky. You know? As you can see, like, both Joe Pesci didn't actually stump for an interview. But but the nice thing is that there were some really great interviews of some of these people earlier. And in some ways, it's nice, you know, to just have it in the more in the period that they're in.

所以当遇到像艾伦·伯斯汀这样的情况时——比如《再见爱丽丝》片场那些精彩的访谈——我就觉得已经足够了。她能接受那些采访已经很棒了，不是吗？

And so when there was something like, like Ellen Burstein's, like, for example, like, there were these wonderful interviews that were done really on set for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, and just feel like I don't need more than that. Like, how wonderful that she sat for that interview. You know?

是啊。还有几个人也是这样，比如法泽·普林西比，我觉得他也属于这类。他这些年积累了大量核心素材，我甚至觉得他在某种程度上已经构建了自己的神话体系。

Yeah. There's a couple of them. Like, father princepe, I feel like is one too, or just having that. And I don't know. It's inter you he's I almost feel like he has built his own mythologies in some ways because he has all skeleton key figures over the years.

你知道吗？你似乎在罗比·罗伯逊去世前与他交谈过。我想既然他们曾长期形影不离，你能否也谈谈那段经历？

You know? You got to speak to Robbie Robertson before he passed away, it seems like. I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit too since they were, you know, quite quite a pair for a long period of time.

嗯，那次也是，当我开始向他解释我所了解的马蒂、以及他之前提到的事情时，他变得更愿意谈论他们共同生活的时光。是的，他当时看起来状态很好，我简直不敢相信不久后他就去世了——就在那次访谈后没多久。不确定那是否是他最后一次采访，但很可能是最后几次之一。

Well, that was another one where, you know, I think as I began to explain to him what I knew about Marty, what he had already spoken about, he became more open about talking about the time that they lived together and stuff. And and, yeah, it was a I mean, he seemed so well. I couldn't believe that shortly thereafter, like, he died, like, not that far after that. I don't know if it was his last interview, but probably among the last ones. Yeah.

那是一次精彩的访谈。电影最后那段封闭式剪辑段落是我最爱的片段之一，因为它纯粹得不可思议。他拍摄《纽约，纽约》时的创作冲动如此纯粹。我特别喜欢罗比说的那句话。

That was a great interview. I mean, you know, the the last walled sequence in the film is one of my favorite sequences because it's just so pure. You know, the purity of his impulse. He's shooting New York, New York. And I love that I love that line that Robbie says.

就像马蒂常说的，大制片厂最讨厌的就是你在拍他们的电影时跑去拍另一部片子。但他就是控制不住自己，那段时期拍电影简直像着了魔。他真实记录下那个画面，还有那些七十年代他们在一起的珍贵镜头，都是无可替代的瑰宝。

It's like the one thing Marty says, the one thing that big studios don't like when you're shooting a big studio picture is to go away and shoot another picture while you're shooting first picture. And yet, like, he couldn't stop himself at sort of like that chapter of, like, all this film is filming isn't healthy. And he really paints a portrait, and then there's that wonderful footage of them together in the seventies, which is just, you know, irreplaceable and precious. And so yeah.

塞尔玛·斯昆梅克出场时我也很感动。她似乎对斯科塞斯作品的本质有种直觉般的理解，毕竟她与他并肩工作这么多年，看过的素材可能比任何人都多。你在电影中从伍德斯托克过渡到她进入他生活的剪辑手法，连那种仿佛置身伍德斯托克现场的拍摄风格都很有趣。和她聊五十年合作经历是怎样的体验？

I love when when Thelma Schoonmaker comes into the film too. It does feel like she also has this kind of sense of what is really going on with Scorsese's work, you know, because she's side by side with him for so long and is basically been forced to look at more of what he has made than almost anybody. But even just that that transition that you make in the film from his work on Woodstock, her coming into his life, even the style of filmmaking that you deploy where it sort of feels like you're looking at Woodstock in that time is so interesting. What was it like, you know, chatting with her about working with him for fifty years?

我很庆幸在剪辑室拍摄了她。她坐在那里的画面让我特别满意——当她暂停画面讨论时，那种鹰隼般的专注眼神。

Well, I'm so glad that I shot her at the editing bay. I mean, that was, like, I'm so happy with myself. You know, that that she's just sitting there. She's able because there's something about the way she watches when she's stopping it and talking about it. It's like a hawk.

她的眼神...观察她的工作状态真的很特别。她与马蒂作品之间的亲密程度，历经所有时期仍保持的默契，简直是电影协作精神的绝美见证。虽然我不太喜欢'天才'这个词，但我确实认为马蒂是天生奇才。但仅凭天赋不足以成就这一切。

What her eyes I mean, it's really special to watch how she is. You know, the the and the level of intimacy that she has with the work with him, having watched him through all these periods, just such a it it really is a beautiful testament to the collaborative nature of film. I mean, that you really you know, there Marty was I do believe, like, it's a it's a word I don't like very much, but I do think he was born like a genius. I do think that's true. But that alone would not have accounted for what happened.

我是说，他需要遇到这些我认为是他生命中的天使般的人物。而她绝对是其中之一，你知道，是他可以信任并帮助他完成作品的人。德尼罗绝对是其中之一。迪卡普里奥也成为了其中一员。还有那些真正让他获得资金去做这些事情的人，因为单凭一己之力是无法完成的。

I mean, he needed to encounter these, what I think of as these angels in his life. And she's definitely one of those people, you know, that he could trust and that helped him make the work. De Niro is definitely one of them. DiCaprio becomes one of them. And then some of the people that actually allowed him get the money to to to do these things, you know, because you you can't do it alone.

而且，这其中有趣的一点在于我真的很想要那种宏观与微观的结合。既有他和他的才华与生活，也有那些帮助他的人，以及随时间推移在国家发展中不断变化的更广泛文化。

And, that's one of interesting things about it is I really wanted that sort of macro micro. There's him and his talent and his life, but there's also the larger the people who help him and then the larger culture that's developing and changing in the country as time goes on.

你几乎对他制作的每部电影都投入了大量时间，这正是观看本片的纯粹乐趣之一——聆听这些故事，了解制作的机制。你之前提到德·帕尔玛。有一部关于他的非常有趣的纪录片，篇幅要短得多。在德·帕尔玛的纪录片里，有很多电影我希望他们能花更多时间去讲述。在你的电影中，有没有什么内容是你希望能更深入探讨的？或者你是否觉得素材太多，却无法找到时间安排进去？

You gave a significant amount of time to almost every film that he made, which is part of just the absolute joy of watching this is hearing the stories, hearing the mechanics of how it's made. You mentioned De Palma earlier. There's an a really interesting documentary about him that is much shorter. And I there are so many movies that I wish they had spent more time on in the De Palma doc. Was there anything in your movie that you wish you could have lingered on more or you felt like you had so much material, but you just couldn't find a way to make the time for it?

对这部电影来说没有，如果你明白我的意思。因为这部电影真的...是的，确实有几处我在想，我们是否本可以在这里插入些被删减的内容？但基本上，这部电影的成败取决于生活如何影响艺术，艺术又如何反哺生活。就像一支来回摇摆的探戈。

Not for this movie, if you know what I mean. Because this movie really is I mean, yes. There's a couple of places where, oh, I'm like, oh, should we should is there a way we could have sort of shoo here in something in that we took out? But, basically, this movie lives and dies on how the life is affecting the art and the art is affecting the life. It's like this tango that goes back and forth.

当我们梳理时发现，生命有限，而那些对他影响最深、或生活冲击最大的电影，在影片中呈现的效果也最显著。有时结果出人意料，比如《禁闭岛》成为一部非常重要的作品，因为他当时处于半崩溃状态，这成为他余生的转折点。我们深入讨论了32部电影，这已经很多了，但他拍过的电影更多。谢天谢地我们涵盖了大量作品。

And when we ran that there's a certain and there's only so much life. You know, there's like and there's and it was like the films that really had the biggest effect on him, or which life most affected are the ones that are most effective in the film, if you know what I mean. So if, like, sometimes it's surprising, like Shutter Island becomes a very important film because he has this sort of semi breakdown, and it's a kind of hinge to the rest of his life. I mean, there are there are there are, you know, the the you know, we do discuss deeply 32 films, which is a lot of films, but the man has made even more films. So but but we basic I do feel that we we thank god we got into a lot of them.

有一段是关于他如何拯救迈克尔·鲍威尔，以及塞尔玛·舒马赫与迈克尔·鲍威尔之间的爱情故事，那是个美丽的小片段。它几乎自成一部小电影，像条死胡同。我至今仍想以某种方式单独呈现这段内容。这就是一个无法融入本片的例子。

And there is a sequence, like, for example, about how he kind of rescued Michael Powell and the love story between Thelma Schumacher and, right, Michael Powell, which is a beautiful little bit. It became almost like a little film in itself that was like a cul de sac. So I was like, I still wanna actually put that out somehow as its own little film. That's an example of it just couldn't you know, it just didn't fit into this film.

说实话，我依然愿意看10小时版本的这部纪录片。另一个亮点是你在影片尾声展现了他私人生活中不可思议的一面，这些事或许有所耳闻，但从未真正得见，如此私密又极具人性化的收尾。作为长期影迷，我惊讶于他愿意这样敞开自己的世界。希望你能谈谈如何决定呈现这部分，以及如何在他人生这个阶段深入他的家庭进行拍摄。

Right. I I I still I still would take a 10 version of this if I'm being totally honest with you. The other thing is that you're able to show this incredible aspect of his personal life near the end of the film, which is something that maybe you hear about, but you we've never really seen and is incredibly intimate and is such a humanizing capstone on the piece. And I'm I'm kind of amazed just as a longtime fan that he was willing to open up his world in that way. And I was hoping you could kind of talk about how you decided to do that, how you were able to spend time in his home at that at this stage of his life.

他的家人都非常乐意且坦率地交谈，包括他的妻子海伦，他们都希望参与其中。我认为他们希望被看见，因为这非常重要。我真心觉得这至关重要，因为仅凭一个人在办公室里的工作表现，你无法真正了解他。事情不是那样的。人不是单一维度的，你知道。

His family was all they were all very willing and open to talk, including Helen, his wife, and wanted to be part of it. And I think that they wanted to be seen, you know, as because it's so important. And I I really thought it was so important because, you know, you can't really understand a person just on their own with you know, in their office with their work. It it doesn't work like that. People are not people are rounded figures, you know.

对我来说极其重要的是，你能看到他生命的弧线。而你描述的他现在的生活，以及电影中展现的部分，是如此重要。我觉得他某种程度上也明白这一点。但那种想要出现在电影中的渴望，也来自海伦。你明白吗？

And it was very import it was hugely important to me that you see the arc of his life. And and his life now that that you're describing and that that's sort of like in the film is so important. And I think he somehow knew that. But also that desire to to, to be in the film came also from Helen. You know?

所以事情就这样自然而然地展开了。整个故事就是这样发展的。没有什么是预先注定的。某种程度上，我并不知道我们要走向何方。我只是有一种强烈的直觉，我必须拍这部电影，谢天谢地他同意了我的想法。

So, it just sort of unfolded that way. That's how the whole thing unfolded. Like, none of it was preordained. It kind of like, I didn't know where we were going. I just had this really strong instinct that I had to make this film, and thank god he agreed with me.

然后我们就一起走进了黑暗。真的，就像跟着面包屑走一样。

And then we just walked into the dark together. I mean, really, like, just I followed the breadcrumbs.

你最后完成的作品非常美。当你完成时，关于他、他的工作或那个世界的任何事情中，最让你惊讶的是什么？

It's very it's very beautiful, what you've done at the end. By the time you finished, what was the most surprising thing you learned about him or his work or really anything in that world?

这个问题对我来说很难回答，因为我学到的东西几乎无穷无尽。某种程度上，我甚至不记得开始拍这部电影前的自己是什么样子了。我学到了太多关于电影制作、构思拍摄序列、与演员合作、他的影响力和转折点，以及他多少次几乎被行业抛弃，看起来永远无法突破，或者以为终于成功了，却被告诉他的作品毫无价值。然后他不得不重新开始——比如被他的第一部电影解雇。有太多我不知道的事情。我也对他关系的发展着迷，比如他现在在某些方面有多么不同。

So hard for me to answer the question because it's almost endless, the things that I learned. I mean, it's like I I I don't even remember what I was like before I started the film in a way because I I learned so many things about filmmaking, about, like, thinking about how to shoot a sequence, about working with actors, you know, about the influences, the turning points, how many times he was really almost left for dead by the industry, or really didn't look like he was ever gonna break in, or, you know, thought that he'd finally broken in and then was sort of told that what he had done was really worthless. And then he had to start to get I mean, fired from his first, you know, film. There were so many things that that that I didn't, you know, know. And also was fascinated by the development of his relationships, you know, the how the how different he is now in some ways.

我觉得在某些方面，他还是那个七岁时因为天气太热没有空调，就去曼哈顿电影院呼吸的男孩。那个人依然存在。但你看他的一些形象，某些方面又是如此阴暗。这作为一个主角非常有趣。

Like, I think in some ways, he's exactly the boy that he was when he was seven and going, you know, going to these movie theaters because he could breathe in in in in Manhattan when it was so hot and no air conditioning. And that person is still there. But then you look at some of these his persona and how dark he was in some ways. You know, there's a real difference. And it's very interesting as a protagonist.

昨天有人把他比作电影主角，就像纯粹从电影视角来看，就当是一部纪录片吧。他是个极具魅力的主人公。

Somebody yesterday talked about him as a protagonist, like, just looking at it as a film, you know, just saying it's a film, like, mind a documentary. He's a fascinating protagonist.

我们熟知他经历的诸多考验，但还有大量不为人知的故事。最让我惊叹的是，他早在七岁时就开始用镜头思维分镜电影故事，那种完美展开叙事的能力——简直疯狂，你懂吗？普通人根本不可能那样思考。

He has all these trials that we know a lot about, but then there's a whole host of others that we don't. One of my the other things that I love is just essentially seeing that he was storyboarding movies at such a young age that, like, at seven years old, he has this camera brain that Yeah. It's like, perfectly unfolds a story, which to me is just completely that's just madness, you know, that somebody can think in that way.

所以我才说这就是天才。这简直匪夷所思对吧？因为他理解电影语言并能用那种维度思考。最触动我的是初次会面时，他看着童年画的分镜稿说——

And that's where I say that that's genius. I mean, that's like, what the hell is that? You know? Because he understood film language and could think in that dimension. And it's so it's wonderful that one of my first things I I thought when when we were first sitting there, he's looking at his little storyboards, you know, that he'd done when he was little.

「直到现在我还在尝试实现这个镜头」

And he he's like, I'm still trying to do that this shot.

我太爱这个细节了。

I love that.

必须把这些分镜做成动画。就像你说的，后来你会发现他毕生都在坚持创作，天啊，这简直——

Have to animate these storyboards. Because like you said, you know? And then you see all the times that he's still doing it. And it's like, my god. You know?

某种意义上他仿佛天生完整，只是用尽一生去实现那个早在童年就萌生的愿景。

He he was kind of born fully formed in some ways and just had to take his whole life to realize a vision that really was born as in his childhood.

这真的很特别。丽贝卡，我们每期节目结束时都会问电影制作人他们最近看过什么好作品。我知道过去五年你看了很多斯科塞斯的电影，所以我猜不是他的作品。你最近还看过什么好片子吗？

It's really special. Rebecca, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. I know you've been watching a lot of Scorsese over the last five years, so I assume it was not a Scorsese movie. Have you seen anything else good recently?

我觉得《马蒂至尊》真的很棒。

I thought Marty Supreme was really good.

是啊。你周一去看了吗？对，那场太有意思了。在不剧透的前提下，你喜欢它哪些方面？

Yeah. Were you there on Monday? Yeah. I it was so fun. Was it what did you like about it without spoiling it for the folks who haven't seen it yet?

我爱那种能量感。感觉影片深深蕴含着创作者的内在能量。而且我也非常喜欢关于男性气概的表述，觉得有种独特的美感。你知道的，我特别爱这点。

I love the energy. I felt like it was very it had the energy of the person who made it, like, deep inside. And I really and I also really like the message about masculinity. I thought it was kind of beautiful But, you know, like, I love that.

完全同意。丽贝卡·米勒，恭喜你。非常感谢参加我们的节目。

I couldn't agree more. Rebecca Miller, congrats. Thanks so much for doing the show.

谢谢，很高兴认识你。

Thank you. So nice to meet you.

感谢丽贝卡·米勒。感谢我们的制作人杰克·桑德斯为本期节目的付出。谢谢阿曼达。阿曼达，下期节目你不会参与，因为要讨论《黑色电话2》

Thanks to Rebecca Miller. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Thanks to Amanda. Amanda, you will not be on the next episode because it's about the Black Phone two

太棒了。

Sick.

还有今年最棒的恐怖电影。你已经看过其中几部了。你看了《武器》，我看了。你还看了《罪人》。

And the best horror movies of the year. You've seen a few of them. You saw you saw weapons. I did. You saw sinners.

我看了。你写了《绝命终点站：血统》。

I did. You wrote final destination bloodlines.

我看了。我看过其中的一个场景。

I did. I have seen one scene from it.

你看了。你知道吗？对，你确实看了。

You did. You know? Yeah. You did.

而且我还是那部电影的科学顾问。所以所有关于磁场的部分都归我负责。

And I also it's and I was the science corner consultant for that. So everything having to do with magnetic fields.

没错。所以电影才那么精确。是啊，非常贴近现实中可能发生的情况。CR会和我一起录制那期节目，我们到时见。

Yes. And that's why it's so accurate. Yeah. So realistic to what would actually happen. CR will be joining me for that episode, and we will see you then.