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我是肖恩·费内西。
I'm Sean Fennessey.
我是阿曼达·多宾斯。
I'm Amanda Dobbins.
而这就是
And this
《大图景》，一个关于看遍一切的对话节目。
is The Big Picture, a conversation show about seeing everything.
今天在节目中，我们将深入探讨《你能看到一切》，这是导演内森·菲尔德和兰斯·奥本海姆关于伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的新纪录片。
Today on the show, we are diving all the way into You Can See Everything, directors Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim's new documentary about Elizabeth Holmes.
这是描述这部电影的一种方式，另一种方式是称它为一部打破形式的作品，探讨名人、非虚构、科学、权力、爱情和认识论真理。
That is one way of describing the movie, at least another way is to call it a form shattering examination of celebrity, non fiction, science, power, love, and epistemological truth.
这绝对是今年最引人入胜、最有趣、最具争议性的电影之一。
This is simply one of the most fascinating, entertaining, and provocative movies of the year.
我们将在节目中讨论这一切。
We will talk about all of it on the show.
本期节目稍后，我们将邀请贾德·阿帕图，他是传奇喜剧电影人、制片人、编剧和纪录片导演。
Later in this episode, will be joined by Judd Apatow, legendary comedy filmmaker, showrunner, producer, and documentarian.
贾德这个月在Netflix上推出了两部新纪录片。
Judd has not one, but two new docs on Netflix this month.
第一部现在已经可以观看了，叫《诺姆》，是一部关于已故的诺姆·麦克唐纳的亲密肖像，他是我一生中最喜欢的喜剧声音之一。
The first, which is now available to watch, is Norm, an intimate portrait of the late Norm MacDonald, one of my favorite comedy voices of my lifetime.
第二部下周上线。
The second arrives next week.
片名是《被希望瘫痪：玛丽亚·班福德的故事》，讲述了另一位才华横溢的喜剧人的复杂而迷人的一生。
It's called Paralyzed by Hope, The Maria Bamford Story, which charts the complex and fascinating life of another brilliant comedy mind.
贾德之前从未上过《大电影》节目，所以我们聊得非常开心，谈了他的纪录片工作、他作为喜剧电影人的历史、他和格伦·鲍威尔合作的下一部大电影，以及很多其他话题。
Judd has never been on the big picture before, we so had a great time talking about his doc work, his history as a comedy filmmaker, his next big movie with Glenn Powell, and a lot more.
贾德作为喜剧历史学家，访谈非常精彩，所以请继续收听。
Judd has a fantastic interview and a comedy historian, so stick around for that.
但首先，先来一些电影新闻，包括《纳尼亚》的预告片，就在这之后。
But first, some movie news including the Narnia trailer right after this.
好的。
Okay.
魔法师的外甥女来了。
The magician's niece is here.
水管工的女儿？
The plumber's daughter?
水管工的女儿就坐在我们面前。
The plumber's daughter sits before us.
我们有格蕾塔·葛韦格新电影的预告片。
We have a trailer for Greta Gerwig's new film
是的。
We do.
《纳尼亚传奇：魔法师的外甥》。
Narnia: The Magician's Nephew.
而且我一直……
And I have been...
这几乎就像是在等着跟你聊《迪格》一样。
This this almost felt like waiting to speak with you about Digger.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
我当时就在想，阿曼达会怎么看这个预告片。
Where I was like, I wonder what Amanda's gonna think of this trailer.
嗯，按照《大图景》的传统，我大概两分钟前才看的。
Well, in Grand Big Picture tradition, I watched it approximately two minutes ago.
但这次，我得说，不是因为我忙着做别的事情、过自己的生活、追求爱好，而是因为我确实在手机上看到了预告片，实际上是通过你的Instagram故事，开始看了，然后意识到在手机竖屏模式下看横屏预告片不是理想的观看方式，就停了。
But in this case, in my defense, it was not because I was, you know, doing other things, living my life, pursuing hobbies, but because I did see the trailer on my phone, actually via your Instagram story, started to watch it, then realized that a horizontal trailer on the vertical setting of my phone was not the ideal way to watch anything, and I stopped.
我一直等到能在笔记本电脑上全屏观看，我相信电影发明者和格蕾塔·葛韦格肯定也是这么想的。
And I waited until I could then watch it full screen on my laptop, which is I'm sure how, you know, the inventors of cinema and Greta Gerwig intended it.
那我们来聊聊我们对这个预告片的看法吧。
So let's talk about what we thought about the trailer.
然后之后，根据你提到的关于“是的”的评论，我想分享一些关于我们消费预告片方式的感受。
And then after that, I'm gonna share some feelings about the way that we consume trailers per your note about Yes.
所以，这当然是C系列的第一个故事。
So this, of course, is the first story in the C.
S.
S.
刘易斯时间线。
Lewis chronology.
每个人都屏息以待，
Everyone just waiting with bated breath
等着听你对预告片消费方式的看法。
for your thoughts on how we consume trailers.
他们确实是。
They absolutely are.
这就是他们听的原因。
That's why they're listening.
你觉得这个预告片怎么样？
What did you think of this trailer?
听着。
Listen.
那个楼梯直接指向我，虽然看起来只是针对摇滚老爸们的，但《楼梯》现在在我家非常流行。
The the stairway is directed right to me even though it would seemingly be just directed at Rock Dads, but stairway is very big in my house right now.
《通往天堂的阶梯》，就是齐柏林飞艇的那首歌，它……
Stairway to heaven, the Led Zeppelin song, which is...
它给这个预告片配了乐。
Which soundtracks this trailer.
有没有人在没看预告片的情况下听这个预告片的评论？
Are people listening to this review of a trailer without watching the trailer themselves?
当然有。
Of course
他们确实有。
they are.
人们是在毫无背景的情况下进入这个空间的。
People are entering this space with no context.
他们一上来就说，电影界最近有什么大事？
They're firing it up and being like, what's going on in movies?
我去看看阿曼达和肖恩对最新电影新闻有什么看法。
I'll check out what Amanda and Sean have to say about the latest movie news.
我很感激这一点，但我也希望每个人都能得到更多。
I appreciate that, but I also want more for everyone.
嗯，这就是广播。
Well, this is broadcasting.
当然。
Sure.
你为所有事情都提供了背景。
You provide context for everything.
我们到了。
Here we are.
Netflix上的《42号传奇》。
42 on Netflix.
总之，楼梯，对，其他一切。
Anyway, Stairway, yes, everything else.
我，我的意思是，我只是……
I I mean, I just...
我不喜欢CGI世界。
I do not like CGI worlds.
我就是不喜欢CGI世界。
I just don't like CGI worlds.
不管是谁制作的。
It doesn't matter who's making them.
不管故事是什么。
It doesn't matter what the story is.
我得说，这部片子里那些想象出来的视觉效果，带有那种电子游戏质感的部分，不合我的口味。
I would say the visual aspects of this that are imagined that have that video game quality are not to my taste.
我想，当这个项目刚被构想出来的时候，我就知道这种事情迟早会发生。
I think I knew that that was going to happen in one way or another as soon as this project was imagined.
而且，显然，我刚刚在笔记本电脑上看了预告片。
And, obviously, I've just seen a trailer on a laptop.
我没有在IMAX影院看完整部电影，但我们一直在讨论如何分辨什么是你的喜好，什么不是。
I did not see the full movie in IMAX, but we've been talking a lot about identifying what is your taste and what is not your taste.
这只是在视觉方面不是我的菜。
This is just that aspect of it visually is not my taste.
所以对此我有点失望。
So I was a little bummed by that.
再提醒我一下，你小时候没读过这些书，还是读过？
Remind me again, you didn't read these books growing up or you did?
我没读过《魔法师的外甥》。
I haven't read The Magician's Nephew.
我确实读过《狮子、女巫和魔衣柜》。
I did read Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe.
好的。
Okay.
而且我有一套完整的平装本，至少是那个系列的书。
And I had a full paperback set of these books or at least that series.
我不太确定《魔法师的外甥》在时间线上是怎么排的。
I'm not really sure where The Magician's Nephew fits in chronologically.
而且我还得上过一所学校……
And I also had to go to a school...
我上的那所学校要求你读《旧约》和《新约》。
I went to a school where you had to read the old and the new testament.
所以我对这些还挺熟悉的。
So, you know, I'm steeped in some of this.
哇。
Wow.
你不知道吗？
You didn't know this?
那后来怎么样？
How did that go?
哦，我，我，我……
Oh, I I I...
有些内容真的留在了我脑子里。
Some of it stayed with me, literally.
而有些内容我则选择了摒弃。
And some of it I've rejected.
随着这部改编作品的消息传出，有一件事让我真正浮出水面，那就是我并没有完全意识到格蕾塔是一个有信仰的人，这一点……
I mean, of the things that has really come to the surface with the news of this adaptation is is that I don't think I fully realized that Greta was a person of faith, that this...
而且这些小说显然在很大程度上是基督教信仰的寓言。
And that, you know, that these novels obviously are very much an allegory for Christian faith.
这真的很有趣，能融入我认为最终会成为Netflix有史以来最大的电影，无论是票房最高还是观看人数最多。
And that's really fascinating to wend into what I think is going to end up being the biggest Netflix movie of all time, whether it's the highest grossing or the most watched.
我们拭目以待，但这似乎是一个非常昂贵的项目。
We'll see, but it seems like it's a very expensive proposition.
我喜欢这个预告片，原因很简单。
I really like this trailer for one simple reason.
我只是觉得格蕾塔对这部电影有她自己的想法。
I just think that Greta clearly has a take on the movie.
她的想法就是把故事线往后推五十年，放到战后的英国，给电影制作注入一种摇滚、摇滚歌剧式的氛围。
And the take is to move the storyline fifty years into the future to postwar England, to include a kind of rock and roll, rock opera centric vibe to the filmmaking.
看起来有点像如果托德·海恩斯来拍《指环王》会是什么样子，这让我觉得挺有意思的。
It looks a little bit like if Todd Haynes tried to make Lord of the Rings, and there's something appealing to me about that.
关于CGI特效，我同意你的看法。
I I agree with you about the CGI.
我觉得那些特效很多都像是……
I think a lot of that stuff is...
看起来几乎没做完似的。
Looks sort of almost unfinished to me.
而且这和很多类似的故事不同，因为那些发生在当时英国现实世界里的场景，我觉得看起来相当不错。
And it's it's in real contrast in this story unlike a lot of other stories like it because the stuff that takes place in the real world of England at that time I thought looked quite good.
所以我对这一点不太满意。
And so I'm not thrilled about that.
看完之后我一直在问自己的问题是，拍这样的电影，还有什么别的选择吗？
The question I've been asking myself since watching it is, what is the alternative when making a movie like this?
我最近刚读了《魔法师的外甥》。
And I have read The Magician's Nephew recently.
所以在我脑子里，第一次读这本书的时候，我以前从没读过，我在想那两个孩子去的很多世界，用个不太恰当的词来说，更像是被强加的。
And so in my head, as I was reading it for the first time, I'd never read the book before, I was thinking of many of the worlds that the two two children go to as more forced like, for lack of a better word.
也许它们在某些方面会很奇幻，会有那种和白女王一起的激动人心的幻境时刻。
And maybe they would be fantastical in certain ways, and there would be these kind of thrilling phantasmagoric moments with the white queen.
但我不觉得我会把它们想象成那种到处都是漂浮物体的模糊景象。
But I don't think I envision them as like this kind of blur of objects floating all over the place.
对。
Sure.
或者很多地方是外太空。
Or outer space in many.
还有……
There's...
很多地方都像是太空电影或电子游戏的参考。
I mean, there there are kind of a space movie video game reference to a lot of them.
我原本希望看到的是彼得·杰克逊拍《指环王》那样的风格，用地球上绝美的自然景观来呈现一个想象中的世界。
I think I was hoping for the Lord of the Rings Peter Jackson style interpretation, which is using a incredibly beautiful part of the natural world on Earth to represent an imagined world.
但对我来说，那并不自动意味着电影就好。
To me, that doesn't automatically make it good, though.
我告诉你我怎么知道的。
And I'll tell you how I know.
因为我最近刚看了2000年代上映的《纳尼亚传奇》三部曲，它们……
Because I just recently watched the Chronicles of Narnia trilogy of films that came out in the two thousands, and they...
它们并不好。
They're not good.
它们是在真实地点拍摄的，但故事本身……
They're shot in real places, but the story isn't...
就是说，电影拍得并不好。
Like, the film is not well made.
故事讲得不好。
It's not well told.
完全同意。
Totally.
我觉得，就刚才说的那个点……
I think just to the point of what...
就是怎么把一个只存在于书里的想象世界呈现出来。
How to realize a world that is imagined and only on the page.
而且我……
And, you know, I...
再说一次，就像我说的，我不会选择用CGI。
Again, as I said, CGI would not be my choice.
另一个选择，显然就是……
The other alternative, obviously, would be to...
就算不放在自然环境中，也可以多用些实际特效。
Even if you don't set it in the natural world, to just use more practical effects.
对。
Yes.
就是创造更多像木偶那样的东西，更多的东西。
You know, to just create more like more puppets, guess, more things that
我们今年一直在搞木偶。
We've been on a puppet run this year.
我刚看了新的VHS，里面有一段是吉姆·汉森生物商店帮忙制作的。
You know, I just watched the new VHS, and there's a whole segment that is the Jim Henson Creature Shop, like helped to create.
那段不是很好，但确实，我们现在正处于木偶热潮中。
It wasn't a great segment unfortunately, but yeah, there is a we're in a puppet moment.
我对此很纠结。
I'm pretty torn on this.
我的另一个观点和你说的有关，就是我们小时候去电影院看预告片，那是第一次看到预告片，对吧。
My other take on it is related to the point that you were making, which is when we were kids and you would go to the movie theater and you would watch the trailers, that was the first time you would see the trailer Mhmm.
在想象中最大的屏幕上，伴随着响亮的音乐。
On the biggest screen imaginable with loud music.
而且这部电影还拿到了《通往天堂的阶梯》的授权，这首歌以前从没在任何电影或电视节目里用过。
And this movie has licensed Stairway to Heaven, which has never been licensed in any movie or television show ever.
我敢肯定他们为了在预告片里用这首歌，给佩奇和普兰特付了一大笔钱。
And I'm sure they paid an extraordinary sum of money to Page and Plant to get this song in the trailer.
我觉得……
I think...
而且它确实很好地传达了她对这部电影的想法。
And it effectively conveys at least her idea of the movie.
那种宏伟的感觉，还有他们想营造的那种摇滚巨星的气质。
You know, the sort of majesty and and rock God vibe that they're going for.
但我是在笔记本电脑上看这个预告片的。
But I watch this on on a laptop.
你也是在笔记本电脑上看。
You watch this on a laptop.
之后我又去大电视上看了一遍，就为了多感受一下那种氛围。
I then went and watched it on on a on a large television after that just to get a little bit more of the vibe.
但是，换个角度说……
But move...
我们总是抱怨Netflix上的电影，因为压缩问题，还有它们的画质和……
We we complain about movies on Netflix all the time because of the compression and the way that they look and the way that they...
音频很少能达到你想要的效果。
Audio is very rarely as good as you want it to be.
所以，一直去评判预告片，尤其是那些本来就不是为了在大屏幕上看的预告片，感觉有点奇怪。
And so it feels weird to be consistently judging trailers, especially those that are not meant to be seen this big
以这种方式。
In this way.
所以也许我只是对格蕾塔·葛韦格宽容一点，因为我喜欢她的电影。
And so maybe I'm just giving a little grace to Greta Gerwig whose movies I like.
虽然你……
Although you...
对《芭比》的预告片也有类似的反应。
There was a similar reaction to the Barbie trailer.
可能有人还记得，当时大家都在说，这什么玩意儿？
May recall people were like, what the fuck is this?
确实。
That's true.
不过那部电影的制作方式非常实际。
Though that movie was made very practically.
对。
Yes.
而且一旦你在银幕上看到它，你就能看出来。
And once you saw it on a big screen, you could tell.
另外，网上对芭比预告片的反应有很多层面。
Also, you know, the the response to the Barbie trailer online had many layers.
看起来在你加入希拉里·克林顿之前。
It seems like Before you added in Hillary Clinton.
所以
So
因为那是一个关于女人得到……的故事。
Because that's a story about a woman getting...
她后来怎么样了？
What happens to her?
你说的是芭比还是希拉里·克林顿？
In Barbie or Hillary Clinton?
我……
I...
咱们换个话题吧。
Let's move it.
继续往下说。
Keep moving.
继续往下说。
Keep moving.
芭比最后怎么样了？
What happens to Barbie at the end?
她去找妇科医生了？
She goes to the gynecologist?
对。
Yes.
不是。
No.
她去了世纪城。
She goes to Century City.
没错。
That's right.
我最近去世纪城的时候，我就想，你知道吗？
Which when I was recently at Century City, and I was like, you know what?
那挺搞笑的。
That was funny.
那是个好笑话。
It was a good joke.
结尾很棒。
Great ending.
《纳尼亚传奇：魔法师的外甥》将于2月12日上映。
Narnia the Magician's Nephew comes to theaters February 12.
这部电影会大卖吗？
Will this movie be a big box office hit?
我不知道。
I have no idea.
我在看的时候就想，哦，这是一部儿童电影，这很明显，但因为格蕾塔·葛韦格，因为《芭比》，因为你可以……
I was watching this and thinking, oh, it's a children's movie, which is obvious, but because of Greta Gerwig, because of Barbie, because of you can...
它的定位和能量都告诉我，这是给孩子们看的，这很棒，因为我想带我的孩子去看好的东西。
It is it is coded and energetically that it was communicated to me that this is for children, which is wonderful because I want good things to take my child to.
所以我就开始算，比如，这对我的四岁孩子来说会不会太吓人，但可能还是会去，因为他会站起来大喊“楼梯”。
So I started doing the math of, like, is this gonna be too scary for my four year old, but probably will go anyway because he'll just stand up and yell, stairway.
我希望电影里真的有这个情节。
I hope it's in the actual film.
而且
And
走着瞧吧。
We'll see.
所以从这个角度来说，一部人们愿意去看的、用心制作的儿童电影，
So in that sense, like, a kid's movie that people...
那还是有可能的。
That that is made with effort that people wanna go see, there's some possibility.
我记得2月12号是超级碗周末，因为超级碗在情人节那天。
I believe February 12 is Super Bowl weekend because the Super Bowl is on Valentine's Day.
这又是一回事。
Just another thing.
而且它还要跟情人节档期竞争，大家都在忙着过情人节呢。
It's also going up against, you know, Valentine's Day people, whatever they're doing.
你不参与这些吗？
That's not something you participate in?
是的。
I do.
不过，你不觉得现在情人节当天找个保姆有点尴尬吗？
Though, don't you feel a little lame now, like, getting a babysitter for Valentine's Day proper?
是的。
I do.
我其实没……
I don't...
我猜我还没怎么想过这个问题。
I guess I haven't really thought about that.
为什么？
Why?
是不是因为你觉得自己处在人生的另一个阶段了？
Just because you're feeling like you're in a different era of your life?
嗯，我只是……
Well, I'm just
有点浪漫消失了吗？
kind of romance gone away?
你什么意思？你什么意思？
What do you what do you mean?
嗯，我只是在想，我们真的要花这么多钱去做……
Well, I'm just like, are we really gonna spend this much money to do...
这有点像除夕夜。
It's, you know, it's kinda like it's New Year's Eve.
这是给新手过的节日。
It's a holiday for newbies.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且，我们已经是老手了。
And, like, we're mayor.
我们可以换个时间再做。
We can do it another time.
但我们真的会在情人节那天庆祝情人节吗？
But are we actually gonna be observing Valentine's Day on Valentine's
你这话是什么意思？
what you mean by that.
好吧。
Okay.
但这也是M·奈特·沙马兰和尼古拉斯·斯帕克斯的周末，对吧？
But also this is the M Night Shyamalan Nicholas Sparks weekend, I believe?
罗曼是不是……
Is Romaine all...
我以为罗曼是五号。
I thought Romaine was the fifth.
哦，所以他们提前做了，只是把它宣传成情人节版的《生化危机》即将上映。
Oh, so they're doing it early and they're just advertising it as Valentine's Resident Evil coming
在9月25日。
on September 25.
我觉得罗曼蒂克是五号。
I think Romaine is the fifth.
预告片里说的是情人节，但你说得对。
They are saying this Valentine's Day in the trailer, but you are right.
那是二月五号。
That is February 5.
所以呢。
So.
我觉得你对儿童电影的看法是对的，很高兴你指出来。
I think you're right about the kids movie thing, and I'm glad you pointed that out.
我在另一个朋友群聊里也讨论了这个预告片，很多人说，我对这些视觉效果挺担心的。
I was on another text chain with some friends talking about this trailer, and a lot of people were like, I'm pretty concerned about these visuals.
而我的回应正是你刚才说的。
And my my response was what you just said.
我就说，这是电影。
I'm like, this is movie
给
for
八岁小孩看的。
eight year olds.
你懂吧？
You know?
而且我敢肯定，这也会是一部给那些从小读CS路易斯小说、对这些故事有很深感情的四五十岁的人看的电影。
And I'm sure it'll be a movie for 40 olds who read the CS Lewis novels growing up and have a big emotional attachment to Or
或者是有八岁小孩的人。
who have eight year olds.
或者是有八岁小孩的人。
Or who have eight year olds.
你可能不会惊讶，我女儿当时就说，马上给我放这个。
Will not surprise you to learn that my daughter was like, put this on right now.
这是对我来说最重要的事情。
This is the most important thing that's ever happened to me.
还有狮子阿斯兰，它对C来说可不只是一个普通的神。
And also, Aslan, the the lion, that's like, that is not only a god to C.
S。
S.
刘易斯、格蕾塔·葛韦格，还有我的女儿。
Lewis and to Greta Gerwig, but also to my daughter.
所以
So
万圣节服装定下来了吗？
Have we decided on a Halloween costume yet?
现在换装成狮子还来得及吗？
Is it too late for the lion?
改主意了，想扮成小仙女。
Pivoted to like a fairy.
我也不确定。
I don't know.
好的。
Okay.
每天都有新想法。
Every day is a new idea.
嗯，既然是周末，看来可能有好几个
Well, since it's a weekend, it seems like there could be several
变化。
Some changes.
选择。
Options.
那天我们还有好几个活动。
We also have multiple events that day.
所以正因为如此，嗯，也许我们会轮流尝试
So because of that, well, maybe we'll cycle through
我们的一些选择。
Some of our options.
我还没想好我的装扮，不过我挺想扮成伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的。
I haven't figured out my costume yet, though I'm strongly considering Elizabeth Holmes.
所以……
So...
对，我们看看《魔法师的外甥》怎么样。
Yeah, we'll see about The Magician's Nephew.
今天早上刚爆出的一条新闻。
A little bit of news that just broke this morning.
赞达亚要出演亚历克斯·加兰为A24拍的新科幻片，不是他现在正在拍的那部，那部是改编自游戏《艾尔登法环》的，而是那之后的下一部，我猜明年开拍，你说什么？
Zendaya to star in Alex Garland's new sci fi movie for A24, not the movie he's making right now, which is an adaptation of Elden Ring, the video game, but his next movie after that, which I guess starts shooting next year, you say what?
她品味不错，我喜欢她做这些事情。
She has cool taste, and I like that she's doing these things.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
即使我对亚历克斯·加兰的作品评价不一，嗯。
Even if I have the mixed record on Alex Garland's Mhmm.
导演工作。
Directorial work.
我不这么认为。
I don't.
他是个天才。
He's a genius.
他是我最喜欢的在世电影人之一。
One of my favorite living filmmakers.
那很酷。
That's cool.
这非常令人兴奋。
This is very exciting.
这非常令人兴奋。
This is very exciting.
这真是……
This is...
这一代演员的表现完全符合我的期望。
This generation of actors is doing everything I hoped they would.
他们很酷。
They're cool.
这太让人兴奋了。
This is so exciting.
加油。
I mean, come on.
她没必要那样做。
She doesn't have to do that.
确实。
That's true.
她可以去拍一部烂大街的系列电影，她确实可以。
She could go make a stupid franchise movie, and she That's true.
她可以表现得像，好吧。
She could be like, alright.
嗯，蜘蛛侠的
Well, Spider Man's
在走下坡路。
slowing down.
做那个。
Doing that.
所以不。
So No.
她在跳弗雷德·阿斯泰尔的舞。
She's doing Fred Astaire.
得了吧。
Come on.
那倒是真的。
That's true.
我很期待。
I'm excited.
我知道。
I know.
我很兴奋。
I'm excited.
孩子们表现很好。
The kids are doing great.
这真是让人松了一口气。
This is such a relief.
两个大拇指点赞。
Two thumbs up.
节目在《X战警》电影之后可能还会再播三到四集。
Show is gonna go on maybe three or four more episodes after the X Men movie.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这将在2027年拍摄。
So this is gonna shoot in 2027.
那你觉得呢？
So are you thinking
我觉得《艾尔登法环》电影是2028年上映。
I think the Eldon Ring movie is 2028.
所以也许这个会晚一点，在那一年的晚些时候或者2029年。
So maybe this is, like, coming later that year or in 2029.
我不确定，我只是想估算一下我们要做多久。
I don't I'm I'm just trying to project how long we're doing this.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我们走着瞧吧。
Well, we'll see.
也许实际上这可能会是一部更精简的电影，因为他正在制作《艾尔登法环》这个大项目。
I mean, maybe maybe actually what this could be is it could be a much more stripped down movie since he's got a huge production of Elden Ring going.
所以也许它会更像《机械姬》那种电影。
So maybe it'll be like a more of an ex machina kind of film.
那太好了。
That would be wonderful.
然后他就可以在《艾尔登法环》上映之间挤出时间拍这部电影，不过可惜对你来说，那部电影估计也会有很多CGI特效。
And then he can squeeze it in between the release of Elden Ring, which unfortunately for you I think will also feature a lot of CGI.
我就知道
I knew
会这样。
that.
毕竟那是游戏改编的嘛。
It's an adaptation of a video game.
确实。
It is.
没关系。
It's okay.
不过我没玩过那游戏，而且我觉得……
I've never played it, though, and I think...
我不想说我认为它是什么，因为我不知道它是什么。
I don't wanna say anything about what I think it is because I don't know what it is.
好的。
Okay.
我想给家里的听众们更新一下，这个月剩下的时间我们打算怎么报道电影，因为连我自己都觉得有点混乱。
I wanted to give the the listeners at home an update on how we're gonna be trying to cover movies for the rest of this month too because it's been a little confusing even for me.
我本来有一些大计划，关于该怎么做、什么时候讨论这些内容。
I had some big plans for what to do, when to talk about these things.
我昨晚和艾琳聊了聊，因为她现在要连续两天看两部电影。
I was talking to Aileen last night, because she's now seeing two movies in two consecutive days.
她……
And she's...
所以她要看……
So she's seeing...
你可以在五个小时内看完所有内容。
You can see everything in five hours.
好的。
Okay.
然后她明天还要去看《Digger》。
And then she's seeing she's seeing Digger tomorrow.
但她当时在纠结，是去看《Digger》还是《La Bola Negra》。
But she was like, should I see Digger or La Bola Negra?
她有点拿不定主意，因为她可以……
And she was kind of stymied because she could...
《La Bola Negra》不是那种到处都上映的片子。
La Bola Negra is not wide wide.
比如说，不是每家Regal影院都有。
Like, it's not in like every Regal theater, for example.
但AMC有。
But it is on AMC.
所以你说，趁《Digger》还没下映，赶紧去看，之后它就要开始奥斯卡学院放映了，那真是……
So you said go see Digger before it is removed from theaters and begins its Academy screener campaign extraordinaire, which let...
听着。
Listen.
那确实在发生。
That is happening.
天哪。
Oh my god.
真的非常激烈。
It's really, really intense.
我一直在跟你说。
And I was telling you.
嗯，我知道。
Well, I know.
但我在想，我们是不是快要变得太激烈了。
But I I I wonder if we're almost gonna intense now.
然后人们会说，太过头了？
And people will be like, too much?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
人们会说，不。
People are like, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
《掘地》就像一部杰作，是我见过的最重要的东西。
Digger is like a masterpiece, the most important thing I've ever seen.
四十五万。
You know, 45 You thousand
知道吗，说这是有史以来最伟大的电影。
know, said it's the greatest film ever made.
那太棒了。
That was awesome.
尼尔·杨真是个了不起的家伙。
Neil Young is the fucking man.
那我们是不是要回到，比如说，有趣的话题上？
So are we gonna come back around to, like, interesting.
有些观点提出来了，但我不确定这是不是有史以来最好的东西。
Some points were made, but I don't know if this is the the best thing ever.
我也是，一旦我们接下来要讨论的那部电影公映了，一旦我们看过的其他一些电影重新上映了。
I I am also, once the once the movie we're about to talk about gets out in the world, once some other movies that we've seen get back in the world.
但是《掘金者》的粉丝们，你们做得很好。
But, you know, the the Digger Hive, you guys are doing the work.
当然。
Absolutely.
你们确实做得很好。
You are doing your work.
而且我跟一个朋友说过，人总得有个起床的理由，所以我很高兴他们找到了这个理由。
And as I said to a friend, you know, you gotta have a reason to get up in the morning, so I'm glad they found it.
完全同意。
Completely.
感谢尼尔·扬每天早上坚持起床，为迪格尔工作。
Thank God for Neil Young continuing to wake up every morning to work on behalf of Digger.
她正在看迪格尔。
She's seeing Digger.
好的。
Okay.
而这正是我之前想说的，我们稍后会讨论《黑色球》。
And and that that is related to what I was trying to set up here, which is that we'll cover La Bola Negra a little later.
它已经正式在电影院上映了，全国有不少电影院在放映，但数量不算多。
It is officially in movie theaters, a a good number of movie theaters around the country, but not a lot of movie theaters.
我觉得它会在电影院上映很长时间。
And I think it's gonna have a pretty long lifespan in movie theaters.
但我们可能更有可能在它上线Netflix时再讨论。
But we'll probably more likely cover it when it hits Netflix.
好的。
Okay.
这样我们就可以……
So that we can have...
我认为这是一部值得深入讨论的电影。
What I think is a movie that's worthy of a big long conversation.
是的。
Yes.
话虽如此，我们还是鼓励你去电影院看。
That said, we would encourage you to go see it in a theater.
这部电影值得在尽可能大的屏幕上观看，原因有很多，但有一个……
It is a movie that deserves to be seen on the largest screen possible for a of reasons, but there is a...
就是……
Just...
它有一种宏大的规模感。
There's a scale to it.
同意。
Agreed.
那么……
So...
与此相关的是，我们原本这周打算在节目里聊《Fjord》。
Related to that, the original intention was to cover Fjord on the show this week.
我有点搞不清楚，到现在也不太确定《Fjord》会扩大到多少家影院上映。
And I was confused, and I'm still a little unclear on how much Fjord is going to expand.
目前洛杉矶有三家影院在放映。
It's in three theaters in Los Angeles right now.
我不知道之后会不会增加。
I don't know if it's going to more over time.
可能会，也可能不会。
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
但我确实……
But I did...
我不想再聊一部我觉得值得深入讨论、而且已经引发很多争议的电影了。
What I didn't want to do is another movie that I think is worthy of big discussion and has already provoked a lot of debate already.
但我不想这么做，因为我觉得如果听众根本看不到这部电影，那听起来会很烦人。
But I I don't wanna do that because that's annoying, I think, for the listeners when they can't see it at the movie at all.
而且这也不是……
And it's not...
我甚至不知道那部电影的上映时间是什么时候，所以也许我们得先放一放，等知道确切时间再说。
I don't even know what the horizon of release is for that movie, so maybe we'll just table it until we know when it is.
而且这会是一场非常基于文本的讨论，关于电影里到底有什么，以及它是如何呈现那些问题的。
And it would be a very text based discussion of what is actually in the movie and how it is shown in the questions raised.
所以没有任何参考框架，不像我们那期充满活力的《纳尼亚传奇》预告片解析。
So there there would be no frame of reference unlike our spirited Narnia trailer breakdown.
没错。
That's right.
好吧，大家都可以去看看那个。
Well, everyone can can check-in on that.
有点让人困惑的是，Fjord……
It is a little confusing that Fjord...
Fjord的发行时间表。
The the release schedule for Fjord.
我没明白。
I don't get it.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不太确定我有没有跟上。
I'm not sure I follow it.
你和我之前猜测它……
I mean, you and I were speculating that it...
那是Neon发行的电影。
That's a Neon film.
它获得了金棕榈奖，而且……
It won the Palme d'Or and has...
从一开始就被看好能拿最佳影片，但现在感觉Neon把资源放到别处去了。
Was tipped for best picture from the the very beginning, but now it sort of feels like Neon is putting its resources elsewhere.
我同意。
I agree.
嗯，它确实有点做作。
Well, I mean, it's got artificial.
没错。
Exactly.
而且
And
所以现在感觉有很多……
so, you know, now it does feel like a lot of...
他们当然还有其他电影，但确实感觉有些精力被分散到那边去了。
And they have other films, obviously, but it does feel like some of that energy is going over there.
这周末上映的另一部电影是《魔鬼的复兴》。
The other thing that is coming out this weekend this weekend is The Devil's Restoration
就是肯·拉塞尔的电影，我有机会在戛纳看过。
The Ken Russell film that I had a chance to see at Can.
我和克里斯会在下周节目末尾讨论这个。
Chris and I will talk about that on the show at the end of next week.
好的。
Okay.
所以在我们做年度恐怖特辑的时候，魔鬼在很多方面都是恐怖片，我们会在那里深入讨论。
So when we do our annual horror episode, The Devil's is in many ways a horror film, so we will get into it there.
鲸落，对。
Whale Fall Yep.
还有《理智与情感》这周末上映。
And Sense and Sensibility are out this weekend.
这两部都会在周一的节目里讨论。
They're both being covered on this show on Monday.
没错。
Correct.
大概是周二吧。
Tuesday, I guess.
《纽约唯一的扒手》，约翰·特托罗的新片，诺亚·西根执导，还有克里斯·洛克的《迷雾绿》，我们会在月底聊这些。
The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, the new John Turturro film directed by Noah Segan, and Misty Green, Chris Rock's movie, we'll talk about at the end of this month.
但这些电影要么这周末上映，要么在扩大放映。
But all of these movies are either in theaters or expanding this weekend.
所以这又是一个周末，有太多可看的，选择太多了。
And so we have yet another weekend where there's just a ton to see, a ton of options.
不过，我觉得这周末只有一部电影值得看，如果你能看到的话。
And yet, I think there's only one movie to see this weekend, if you can see it.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Correct.
那部电影就是《你能看到一切》。
That movie is You Can See Everything.
在深入聊之前，我先给你一些这部电影的细节。
So I'll give you some details movie before we dig into it.
这部电影由菲尔德和奥本海姆执导，正如我之前提到的，主演有伊丽莎白·霍姆斯、内森·菲尔德、比利·埃文斯。
Directed by Fielder and Oppenheim, as I mentioned, the film stars Elizabeth Holmes, Nathan Fielder, Billy Evans
还有其他演员。
And others.
对。
Yes.
好。
Okay.
我们先简单聊聊这部电影，不涉及剧透。
We're gonna have a brief non spoiler discussion of this movie.
好。
Okay.
然后我们会彻底剧透，因为不提剧透根本没法讨论。
And then we will spoil the fuck out of it because it is impossible to talk about
好。
Okay.
完整地。
In full.
而且你和我到现在还没讨论过这部电影。
And you and I have not discussed this movie yet at
完全没讨论过。
all.
确实。
That's true.
没有。
No.
我们只通过短信聊过其中一个方面。
We had one text conversation about one aspect of it.
是吗？
Did we?
好的。
Okay.
我都不记得那件事了。
I don't even remember that.
我来跟你讲讲这部电影的故事。
The story of the movie, I'll share with you.
在她被送进监狱的三十四天前，臭名昭著的硅谷创始人伊丽莎白·霍姆斯邀请了一组持怀疑态度的摄制组来记录她的一举一动。
Thirty four days before she's sent to prison, notorious Silicon Valley founder Elizabeth Holmes invites skeptical film crew to document her every move.
起初，这只是一部关于一位神秘罪犯的亲密肖像，但很快变成了一段令人匪夷所思、长达三年的深渊之旅。
What begins as an intimate portrait of an enigmatic felon soon becomes a mind bending three year journey into the abyss.
现在，对于正在收听节目的听众们，
Now for those listening at home
那些对伊丽莎白·霍姆斯一无所知的人，
Who don't know anything about Elizabeth Holmes
对。
Yes.
我来提供一些背景信息。
I'll provide some context.
肖恩，
Sean,
给我们讲讲一些事实吧。
tell us some facts.
伊丽莎白·霍姆斯在2003年创立了血液检测公司Theranos。
Elizabeth Holmes founded the blood testing company Theranos in 2003.
她筹集了7亿美元，最高达到90亿美元，靠的是虚假声称其专有机器只需几滴血就能进行多种检测。
She raised $700,000,000 up to $9,000,000,000 on false claims that its proprietary machines could run a wide range of tests using only a few drops of blood.
该公司暗中依赖传统的第三方商业设备，并操纵了结果。
The company secretly relied on conventional third party commercial equipment and manipulated results.
2022年1月，联邦陪审团裁定霍姆斯犯有共谋欺诈投资者罪和三项电信欺诈罪。
In January 2022, a federal jury convicted Holmes of conspiracy to defraud investors and three counts of wire fraud.
2022年11月，她被判处联邦监狱服刑135个月。
In November 2022, she was sentenced to one hundred and thirty five months in federal prison.
电影基本上就是从那里开始的。
That is effectively where the movie starts.
现在，你可能会想，天哪，我看过亚历克斯·吉布尼的纪录片。
Now, Holmes, you might be thinking to yourself, gosh, I've seen the Alex Gibney documentary.
我读过约翰·凯里鲁的《坏血》。
I read John Kerryu's Bad Blood.
我看了Hulu的剧集《辍学生》。
I watched the Hulu series The Dropout.
我的生活中真的还需要多少关于伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的内容呢？
How much more Elizabeth Holmes do I really need in my life?
这么多年过去了，她真的值得一部三小时的纪录片吗？
Is she really worthy of a three hour documentary all these years later?
我会说也许不值得，但这不完全是这样。
And I would say maybe not, but that's not entirely what this is.
所以，我先来问你。
So I'll start by asking you.
好的。
Yes.
你觉得《你能看到一切》怎么样？
What did you think of You Can See Everything?
这可是年度最佳电影。
So this is the movie of the year.
很明显。
For Pretty clearly.
至少从这个播客的角度来看，是的。
At least from the perspective of this podcast Mhmm.
以及我们感兴趣的那些事情。
And the things that we're interested in.
我认为它成为年度最佳电影有两个原因。
And I think it's the movie of the year for two reasons.
第一，因为它作为一部电影和对主题的探索所取得的成就，这些主题包括伊丽莎白·霍姆斯、内森·菲尔德、纪录片制作、所谓的真相的本质、我们人与人之间如何交流，以及观看时浮现出的许多其他有趣问题。
One, just because of what it accomplishes as a film and an exploration of its subjects, which are Elizabeth Holmes, Nathan Fielder, documentary filmmaking, the nature of truth, quote, unquote, how we speak to each other as people, and and many other interesting questions that bubble up as you watch it.
我认为它成为年度最佳电影的另一个原因，这不同于我最喜欢的电影，尽管这也是我今年最喜欢的电影之一，就是它非常契合当下的电影时代……
I think the other way that it is the, quote, movie of the year, which is different than my favorite movie, though this is one of my favorite movies of the year, is just that it is very much of this moment of movie...
无论是电影制作方面，还是社会层面，以及它对我们作为一个国家和作为花时间上网的人所处位置的揭示，确实如此。
Both of moviemaking, but also societally and what it says about where we are as a country and as people who spend time on the Internet, certainly.
而且它的发布方式也很出人意料，A24真的是再次找到了热度。
But then also, you know, it's released, the surprise quality of it, A24 really just, like, finding the heat once again.
这一代电影人，以Nathan Fielder为首，还有Lance Oppenheim，我觉得也可以把Safdie兄弟算进去。
This particular class of filmmakers led by Nathan Fielder, but also Lance Oppenheim, you could put the Safies in there, I think.
Emma Stone和Dave McCrary担任制片人。
Emma Stone and Dave McCrary as producers.
所以它只是……
So it's just...
它几乎囊括了当下电影中所有宏大、令人兴奋、出人意料和新颖的元素。
It's kinda located everything that is big and exciting and surprising and new about movies right now.
它确实是……
It's it's...
它确实是所有这些。
It is all those things.
对，这明显是一部非常受关注的电影，宣传和运作都做得很好。
Like, it is a very clearly very buzzy movie that has been well marketed and well handled.
我在节目里分享过第一次在特柳赖德看它的经历，我觉得那真是非常有趣，令人大开眼界。
I shared on the show my experience of seeing it for the first time at Telluride, which I found to be like an utter delight and mind blowing in such a fun way.
而且大部分情况下，我觉得电影里的惊喜事先都没有被透露给你。
And for the most part, I think the surprises of the movie, you also were not revealed to you beforehand.
对。
No.
所以很难去谈论这部电影，我也很好奇当秘密被揭开之后，观众的反应会有什么不同。
And so it's it's hard to communicate about the movie, and I'm quite curious to see what the reception of the movie, how different it is when the the cat is out of the bag.
而且我猜等这期节目播出的时候，关于导演们的一些选择，秘密应该已经公开了。
And I would imagine that by the time this episode is out, the cat will be out of the bag about some of the choices that the filmmakers make.
但我完全同意你的看法。
But I I echo your thoughts entirely.
我觉得这是……
I think this is...
一部电影很少能在文化中引发如此强烈的共鸣，以至于你……
It's very rare for a movie to metastasize a feeling in the culture to the sense that you...
我们觉得好像什么都不再可信了。
We don't feel like we can trust anything anymore.
作为一个长期痴迷于纪录片的人，我其实很少去思考它的目标和意义是什么。
And as someone who's been obsessed with documentary for a very long time, I don't spend enough time thinking about what its goals are and what its purpose is.
而这部电影完全聚焦于一个问题：什么是真相？是否存在客观的真相？
And this is a movie that is entirely concerned with the idea of what is the truth and is there such a thing as an objective truth.
尤其是当涉及人类的失败和脆弱时。
Especially when it comes to human failure and human frailty.
这部电影讲述的是一个我们认为是骗子的人，一个女骗子。
And it's a movie that is about a person who we think of as a con person, a con woman.
而且
And
而且这部电影是关于一个女性，而不是男性，这真的很有意思。
And and it's a movie about a woman and not a man, which is really interesting.
这是一部关于女性的电影。
It is a movie about a woman.
但导演是男性，他对真相和人性失败有着非常独特的感受。
But made by a man with a very particular sensibility around the truth and and human failure.
而且内森·菲尔德的所有作品感觉都在为这部电影做铺垫。
And all of Nathan Fielder's work feels like it has been working towards this.
但我觉得这部电影也剥离了他项目中很多刻意营造的虚假设定。
But this movie also strips out, I think, a lot of the artificial convention that he builds around his projects.
我觉得这正是他和奥本海默合作的关键所在。
And I think this is really where he and Oppenheim's collaboration Exactly.
变成了……
Becomes...
让它更特别了。
Makes it more special.
而且我是内森的忠实粉丝。
And I'm such a Nathan Allegiant.
我觉得他做的所有东西，最差也是引人入胜，最好的话，就是我们在电影、电视和影视文化里最聪明、最有创意的作品之一。
I think everything he's done is, like, at worst fascinating and at best among the smartest and most creative thing that we have in movie and TV and film culture.
但Lance是个真正的纪录片导演。
But Lance is a real documentarian.
他是个地道的纪录片导演。
He's a proper documentarian.
所以他的电影技巧和风格，跟Nathan想要的那种对Holmes一家及其故事的亲密观察碰撞在一起，再加上之后发生的一切，就成了一道特别的融合大餐。
And so his filmmaking skill and style colliding with what Nathan wants to do when getting this really intimate look at the Holmes family and Holmes' story, and then everything that transpires after that, makes this just a special stew.
而且这种两个截然不同的创作人物合作的例子并不多见。
And there's not a lot of examples of this where you've got two distinct creative figures
他们就像说，嘿，我们有些共同点，但也有一些不同的地方。
Who are like, hey, we have some stuff in common, but we have some stuff that is different.
如果我们合作来做这样一个项目会怎么样？
What if we worked together to execute on a project like this?
所以我就……
And so I...
就这一点来说，我觉得这也很棒，像是未来的一种预兆。
In in that respect too, I think it's like a wonderful, like, a sign of the future.
真希望有更多人尝试做类似的事情。
Like, would love to see more people try to do something like this.
它拓展了Nathan Fielder的项目，同时也与它互动，并探讨了观看过所有这些作品意味着什么。
It it expands the Nathan Fielder project while also engaging with it and, exploring what it means to have watched all of those things.
我确实觉得我和很多人聊过，他们说，比如，我……
I do feel like I've had a lot of conversations with people who say, like, I...
Nathan Fielder那种风格让我非常焦虑。
The the Nathan Fielder of it all makes me very anxious.
我真的看不下去那些东西。
I can't really sit through that stuff.
我受不了。
I can't bear it.
而且我不认为这个项目是那种调调，因为你有Lance和他的团队作为中间人，而且他们也在某种程度上研究那种调调本身。
And I don't think that the project is in that tone because you have, you know, Lance and his team as intermediary, and also kinda studying that tone itself.
对。
Yes.
所以，你不必是内森·费德尔的信徒也能享受这个。
So, you don't have to be a disciple of Nathan Fielder in order to enjoy this.
它的受众更广。
I mean, it's it's a bigger tent.
但如果你了解他的作品，那它就会多一层丰富性。
But, also, if you know the work, then there is a a level of richness to it.
对。
Yes.
我绝对可以确认这一点。
I I can I can definitely affirm that?
所以……
So there...
电影开场时有个有趣的地方，不算什么剧透，在我们深入讨论之前，那就是影片以非常传统的纪录片方式开场……
There's something interesting about it that happens in the opening moments of the movie that is not really a giveaway of any sort before we start really digging into the text, which is that the film opens in a very traditional document...
纪录片风格，非常非常写实的风格，我们首先看到的是伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的丈夫比利·埃文斯在打电话。
Documentary style, very very verite style, where the first thing that we see is Billy Evans, Elizabeth Holmes' husband talking on the phone.
但我觉得在法律上可能不算，因为钱的问题。
But I think not legally because of money raisins.
我不
I don't
哦，他们其实没有
Oh, they're not actually
结婚？
married?
我不确定他们是不是结婚了。
I don't know if they are.
我从没听他们明确说过。
I never heard them specify that.
而且我觉得他们可能没有，因为
And I and I think that they probably are not because
他们的财务是分开的。
Their their finances are kept separate.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
他们……
They...
不过他们在一起，而且有了家庭。
They're together, though, and they have a family together.
他们一起有孩子。
They have children together.
然后他在打电话说话。
And he's on the phone speaking.
接着我们看到霍姆斯带着孩子，透过她儿子的婴儿床，她站在铁栏后面。
And then we see Holmes with her child through her son's crib, and she's behind bars.
那是我们第一次看到她。
That's like the first time we see her.
非常刻意的选择。
Very purposeful choice.
电影在开头几分钟就开始展开，我们以为这会是一部纯粹的观察式纪录片，讲述这些人如何在家庭被拆散前的最后三十四天里生活。
And the film starts to play out in the first few minutes, and we think that this is gonna be a pure fly on the wall doc about how these people are living in these final thirty four days before the family's broken apart.
然后镜头切到内森·菲尔德，他站在离这家人大约十英尺远的客厅里看着，嗯。
And then there's a cut to Nathan Fielder, who is standing about 10 feet away from the family in the living room looking on Mhmm.
相当像那种伪恶意的感觉。
Quite like faux malevolently.
像是一个厄运的化身。
Like a figure of doom.
配乐也随之转变。
And the score shifts.
当我第一次看的时候，现在我已经看了两遍，我当时就想，好吧。
And as I was watching this for the first time, and I've now seen it twice, I was like, okay.
这会是内森·菲尔德的那种风格。
This is gonna be a Nathan Fielder thing.
就像，我们是在拍《彩排》第三季。
Like, we're we're doing The Rehearsal season three.
然后我……
And I'm...
我对此并不反对，但我想，好吧，这……
I wasn't against that, but I was like, okay, this is...
而且我觉得，这部电影实际上一直在让你以为它会是你想象中的那种样子，然后它又慢慢把那种预期消解掉。
And the movie, I think, actually continues to set you up for what it thinks you think it's gonna be, and then it kind of drains that.
因为你说得对，这不仅仅是另一个内森·菲尔德式的作品。
Because to your point about this not being just like another Nathan Fielder thing.
他的……
His...
在这部电影里，当他成为主要参与者，与伊丽莎白、比利以及片中出现的其他人交谈时，他的举止方式并不是他通常的那种表演状态。
The way he comports himself in this film as he becomes a major participant in speaking to Elizabeth and Billy and the other people who appear in the movie, he's not really performing in the way that he usually does.
他不是在搞笑。
He's not going for laughs.
他没有那种刻意的尴尬，就是那种‘如果我跟你说这个，会听到什么奇怪的反应’的感觉。实际上他更像是在做记者或者侦探的工作，是的。
He's not doing that like very purposeful awkward, if I say this to you, what weird response will I I hear Like, from he actually is working more as a journalist or like a a detective in the film Yeah.
以一种我没预料到的方式，我觉得你说的就是这让电影变得特别棒，我不确定我们看到的是不是真实的Nathan，但我们看到了一个不同的Nathan，我觉得这是导演一个非常聪明的选择。
In a way that I wasn't expecting, which I think is what you're saying is like complicates the movie in such a great way, where I'm not sure if we're getting the real Nathan, but we're getting a different Nathan that I thought was like a brilliant choice on the filmmaker's part.
对。
Yes.
甚至有一场戏，你可以……
And there's even one scene where you can...
他，那个角色，有点把自己引入到场景和你正在看的叙事中。
Where he, the character, is kinda introduces himself into the scene and to the narrative of what you're watching.
我记得我当时想，好吧。
And I I remember thinking, okay.
所以这……
So this...
嗯...
An...
正常的纪录片导演不会这么做，他们只会观察当下，让摄像机一直开着，这样就够了。
A normal documentary filmmaker would not do this, would just observe the moment, keep the camera running, and that would be enough.
而且那个时刻本身就很有说服力。
And the the moment itself is very telling.
但这也揭示了内森的一些东西，他把自己插入其中，同时也揭示了电影的结构。
But it reveals something about Nathan that he inserts himself into it and also reveals something about the structure of the film.
所以你已经开始思考纪录片的拍摄选择了。
And so you're already thinking about documentary choices.
但这...
But it...
你也能看出这并不完全是一个角色。
You can also tell that it's not quite a character.
那个时刻有些冲动，所以你也知道，你看到的内森和排练时的内森不一样。
There is something impulsive about the moment, so you also know that you're getting a different Nathan than the rehearsal.
我想补充一点，就是在那次放映之后，阿曼达，我们俩后来参加的问答环节里，兰斯和内森跟比尔·哈德尔一起做了个问答。
I would just like to add something, which is that at the screening, Amanda, you and I were at afterwards, Lance and Nathan gave a q and a with Bill Hader.
他们说原本的计划并不是让内森那么频繁地出现在镜头前，但他们一直感觉到伊丽莎白在把他拉进来，拉进来，直到某个程度。
And they said that the original plan was not to have Nathan so in front of the camera, and they kept feeling Elizabeth pulling him in and pulling him in to a certain point
在我们那个问答环节里，他们留了下来，他基本上说了他们……
where they stayed at our q and a, and and he's basically said that they...
就是说比利和伊丽莎白在拍电影的时候，会转向他，征求他对某件事的看法，而这总是会把他拉进对话里，这挺有意思的。
That Billy and Elizabeth would turn to him and ask for his point of view on something while they were making the movie, and that that invariably kind of drew him into the conversations, which is interesting.
我只想说，我最近和一个节目的朋友聊过，那个朋友建议我们也许应该对这里的一切都持怀疑态度。对。
I just want to say, I was talking with a friend of the show recently, and that friend suggested maybe we should be skeptical of everything here Yes.
以一种我可能没有完全想到的方式，而且可能还有更多的构建，更多的虚假成分，比我们意识到的还要多。
In a way that maybe I hadn't fully thought about, and that there there may be even more construction going on, even more artifice going on than we realized.
但我只想说，我第一次看的时候，我是把它当作纪录片来接受的。
But I will just say for the first time that I watched it, I received it as documentary.
就像，接受……
Like, received...
显然，有些部分远远超出了我们接下来要讨论的范围。
There there are parts of it obviously that extend well beyond that that we we will talk about.
但看电影的时候，我并没有觉得自己被糊弄了。
But I didn't feel like I was being put on when I was watching the movie.
你是怎么……
What did you...
你对此怎么看？
How do you feel about that?
我觉得我并没有……
I don't think that I was...
我想我是把它当作一部有自我意识的纪录片来看的。
I guess I watched it as self aware documentary.
我注意到了其中的构建痕迹，而且他们在剪辑中做了一些选择，让你意识到镜头后面的人。对。
I was aware of the construction, and there are a few choices that they make in the edit to make you aware of the people behind the camera Mhmm.
以及他们的参与，不仅仅是内森本人。
And their involvement and not, you know, not just Nathan himself.
所以对我来说，内森从头到尾都像是一个角色。
And so I think Nathan to me is a character throughout.
而且有趣的是，你……
And it's funny you...
你第一次看到他的那个瞬间，那种过于阴森的背景音乐。
That moment where you cut to him the first time you see him, and there is this kind of, like, overly foreboding score.
但在我脑海里，我本能地就开始播放《Curb Your Enthusiasm》的配乐，因为，就像……
But in my head, reflexively, the Curb Your Enthusiasm score just started playing because, like, it...
这里面其实有幽默的成分。
There is a moment of humor in it.
而且我确实觉得，这种电影制作方式传达出某种结构和某种……
And I do think that the filmmaking communicates some sort of structure and something that...
以及各种选择。
And and choices.
这是精心设计的，但它是假的吗？我觉得这才是我想问的问题。
It's it's designed, but is it fake, I think is the question that I'm asking.
就像有人向我暗示，说这里面有些可能是假的。
Like, person who was insinuating to me that, like, some of this might be fake.
哦，是说他们安排了这一切。
Oh, that they staged this.
我不确定我当时是那样看的。
I'm not sure that I saw it that way.
我，我，我不……
I I I don't...
我不确定为什么我当时没那样看。
I'm not sure why I didn't.
但我想，因为你描述的那种自我意识，让我觉得那会非常复杂。
But I think because some of that self awareness that you're describing makes me think that that would be really elaborate.
另一件事是……
The other thing is that...
哦，我不……
Oh, I don't...
我不确定伊丽莎白·霍姆斯和比利·埃文斯能在一个人造环境里成功运作。
I'm not sure that Elizabeth Holmes and Billy Evans would be able to operate successfully inside of a fake environment.
我不知道他们真的能……
I don't know that they really
还是说……
Or is...
还是说他们一直都是在一个人造环境里运作的？
Or are they operating inside a fake environment all of the time?
对，没错。
Well, right.
我想问题是，他们能不能在别人的人造环境里运作。
Could they operate in someone else's fake environment, I guess, is the question.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know?
嗯，但是……
And Well, but the...
就像杰克指出的，他们自己不断把内森拉进叙事里，这本身就说明他们有一定的意识。
You know, as Jack pointed out, the the fact that they are constantly pulling Nathan into the narrative themselves, you know, suggests a level of awareness.
而且，我是说……
And, I mean...
而这正是整个项目最根本的问题之一。
And and that is one of the ultimate questions of this this entire project.
就像，这是有意的吗？
It's like, is purposeful?
什么是操控？
What's manipulation?
比如，谁在掌控局面？
Like, who's in control?
而这部电影确实让我从头到尾都在猜测这一点。
And the movie definitely kept me guessing on that throughout.
你觉得伊丽莎白·霍姆斯怎么样？
What do you think about Elizabeth Holmes?
我对伊丽莎白·霍姆斯怎么看？
What do I think about Elizabeth Holmes?
她跟我年纪差不多。
So she's roughly my age.
而且你们俩
And You guys have
有很多共同点。
a lot in common.
太感谢了。
Thanks so much.
所以，谢谢。
So thank you.
我的一个朋友，我最好的朋友之一，你认识她，她跟伊丽莎白·霍姆斯是高中同学。
One of my friends, one of my best friends, you know her, went to high school with Elizabeth Holmes.
不会吧
No
开玩笑的。
kidding.
所以每次她上新闻，我朋友都会发短信跟我说，哦，
And so anytime she was in the news, my friend would always text me and say Oh,
我知道。
I know.
哦。
Oh.
她总是说，我就知道她是假的，因为她只上了荣誉化学课，没上AP课程。
She would always say, I knew she was a fake because she was only in honors chemistry and not AP.
哇。
Wow.
我觉得这
Which I
这真是致命一击。
What a kill shot.
这真是一针见血，而且从那以后每次提到她，我脑子里就只有这个。
Which is a kill shot and also is just all I've ever thought about whenever she comes up.
不过，当时我在纽约做杂志，正好赶上Theranos第一轮报道的时候……
But so I was in New York working in magazines for the the the first round of Theranos and the...
所有那些照片，包括纪录片里提到的那张非常出名的照片。
And all of the photographs, including the very famous one that is referenced in the documentary.
而且她被评为年度女性的时候，我其实就在《Glamour》工作，对。
And I was actually working at Glamour when she was a a woman of the year Mhmm.
她原定在约翰·卡里鲁发表第一篇报道的那天晚上领奖。就是那天晚上。
And was scheduled to receive the award on the night that John Carrihoe published his first That night.
那天晚上。
That night.
所以如果我没记错的话，
And so if memory serves,
我们
we
当时真不知道该怎么办。
didn't really know what to do.
然后我记得，唯一愿意给她颁奖的人就是杰瑞德·莱托。
And then I believe that the only person who would present her award was Jared Leto.
所以，我……
So, I...
听着。
Listen.
我相当确定我没记错。
I'm pretty sure I'm right on that.
哇。
Wow.
这故事真棒。
That's a great story.
我从来没听过。
I've never heard that.
大家，大家都可以纠正我。
People people can correct me.
你有没有和她互动过？
Did you interact with her at all?
没有。
No.
我没有。
I didn't.
那一年我被分配给了另一位年度女性。
I was assigned to some other woman of the year that year.
我记不清是谁了。
I can't remember who.
哇。
Wow.
有意思。
Interesting.
你记不起她的名字了。
You can't remember her name.
这也就是说，我看了很多关于伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的内容，从各个角度——作为一个实时关注这个故事、对科学一窍不通的人，作为一个要面对其中真假问题的记者，还有我们该怎么向世界呈现这些，即使我只是沾边而已。
Which is just to say that I've consumed a lot of Elizabeth Holmes content from all different areas as, you know, as a person watching this story in real time who doesn't know anything about science, as a journalist who is confronting some of that, like, what's true and what's not here, and also just how are we gonna present this, to the world even, you know, I was just adjacent to it.
而且我确实看了《辍学生》。
And I did watch the dropout.
所以我确实认为她是我们这一代的一个标志性人物。
So I do think that she is a character of our generation.
毫无疑问。
No question.
所以我对一部关于她的纯纪录片很感兴趣。
And so I was interested in just in a plain documentary about her.
尤其是内森·菲尔德和兰斯·奥本海姆执导的。
Especially from Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim.
我当时就想，哦，好吧。
I was like, oh, okay.
如果你们想这么做，我……
If you guys wanna do this, I...
当然。
Sure.
我真的很想了解更多。
I I would love to know more.
我……
I...
我也差不多。
I'm I'm very similar.
我没在《魅力》杂志工作过，也没在那个方面接触过她。
I I didn't work at glamour, and I didn't encounter her in that respect.
但除此之外，都一样。
But otherwise, same.
我觉得她是……
I I thought she was...
我不确定我觉得她很迷人，但我确实觉得那个故事很迷人。
I'm not sure that I thought she was fascinating, but I certainly thought that story was fascinating.
而且我没听那个播客，也没读那本书，但我确实看了纪录片，也看了电视剧。
And I didn't listen to the podcast, and I didn't read the book, but I did watch the doc and and watch the television series.
我觉得她代表了那种Web 2.0时代的科技创始人。
And I think she's representative of kind of web tech founder two point o
那种典型人物。
Syndrome.
我们现在处于3.0时代，你懂的，山姆·奥特曼的时代，但她比他早。
And we're in we're in kind of three point o You know, we're in the Sam Altman era of this sort of thing, but she precedes him.
她不是史蒂夫·乔布斯，也不是比尔·盖茨，但她是……
She's not Steve Jobs and she's not Bill Gates, but she is...
她简直就是在模仿那些人物，渴望成为他们那样的人。
She was literally working in image of those figures and aspiring to be just like them.
总有人爬得高摔得惨，她就是那个伊卡洛斯故事的经典版本。
And there's always people who reach high and fall hard, and she's a classic version of that Icarus story.
而且这也是……
And it is also...
我记得是2015年，2015年底的时候。
It was 2015, I believe the end of two thousand and fifteen.
所以我们正处于骗子2.0时代，而且当时特朗普正在竞选总统，但大家都觉得他不可能当选。
So we are in scammer two point o era, and we are also in the Donald Trump is running for president, but he can't possibly be president.
那个阶段……
Phase of...
然后时间快进
And then fast
到后来。
forward time.
对。
Yes.
但是……
But...
而且，在那个我们还不了解自己所处世界的时代，像伊丽莎白·霍姆斯这样的人能够蓬勃发展。
And, like, in a time where we didn't understand the world that we were living in where people like Elizabeth Holmes could thrive.
我觉得这为她在这部电影中想要表达的内容做了很好的铺垫，因为她被判犯有部分指控。
I think that sets her up really well for what this movie is attempting to do because, you know, she was convicted of some of the charges
对。
Yes.
但不是所有指控。
But not all of the charges.
这对她和比利来说非常重要，嗯。
And that's very important to her and Billy Mhmm.
就……
In terms...
而且他们显然有一些非常想通过这部电影传达给内森和兰斯的内容。
And they clearly have some things that they really want to get across to Nathan and Lance in the making of the movie.
我觉得现在可能是时候说，我们接下来要开始剧透这部电影了。
And I think this is probably the time to say that we're gonna start to spoil the movie.
我觉得我们做得挺好的。
I think we did a pretty good job.
这是……
This is...
我我我完全同意年度最佳电影这个说法。
I I I could not agree more with the movie of the year sentiment.
这绝对是我今年看过的最喜欢的五部电影之一。
It's certainly among my five favorite movies I've seen this year.
完全同意。
Totally.
我现在已经看了两遍了。
I've seen it twice now.
第二遍看的时候感觉非常不一样，这个我可以等我们深入讨论的时候再说，以及……
The second time was very different, and I can talk about that as we get into it and how...
关于我是怎么接受它的，以及我更喜欢哪些部分或者不太喜欢哪些部分之类的。
In terms of how I received it and what I liked more or less or whatever.
不过我们俩都强烈推荐大家去看这部电影。
But it is a hearty recommendation from both of us to check out the movie.
我们现在要剧透了，所以别抱怨，因为这里面有些东西你第一次看的时候是不想提前知道的。
We will spoil it now, so do not complain because there are some stuff in here that you're gonna wanna see for the first time without knowing it.
好的。
Okay.
三，二，一。
Three, two, one.
开始吧。
Here we go.
这部电影关于真相的部分真的很有意思，因为影片开头不久的一个关键转折点是，我们看到伊丽莎白和比利在床上读《纽约时报》上艾米·乔塞克写的一篇关于伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的报道。
There's something really interesting about the truth aspect of the movie, because one of the key turning points very early on in the film is we see in bed Elizabeth and Billy reading a New York Times profile by Amy Chosek that has been written about Elizabeth Holmes.
对。
Yes.
文章里有一个特别的时刻，引用了这样一句话：有一次我告诉她，我听说詹妮弗·劳伦斯已经退出了在电影中扮演她的角色。
And there's a very particular moment where there's a quote in the piece that says, at one point I tell her that I heard Jennifer Lawrence had pulled out of portraying her in a movie.
霍姆斯几乎是若有所思地回答说，他们不是在演我，他们是在演我创造的一个角色。
Holmes replied almost reflectively, they're not playing me, they're playing a character I created.
这时比利和伊丽莎白都看到了这一点，嗯。
Now both Billy and Elizabeth sees on this moment Mhmm.
但比利比伊丽莎白更激烈一些。
But Billy a little bit more aggressively than Elizabeth.
伊丽莎白似乎很困惑，那不是我说的。
And Elizabeth seems confused, that's not something I said.
但随后比利开始想象他认为她确实说过的话，然后他们开始对这篇报道的整个内容提出异议。
But then Billy starts imagining what he believes she did say, and then they start taking issue with the entirety of this profile that's been written.
他们说他们录了音。
And they say they've recorded tapes.
因为他们的危机公关团队告诉他们
Because their crisis team told them
对。
Yes.
也是。
Too.
对。
Yes.
我相信提到了丽莎·海勒的名字。
I believe that Risa Heller is name checked.
至少有个叫丽莎的。
At least there's a Risa.
那应该就是那个在帮她处理入狱前事务的顾问。
Would make sense that that's the person who is consulting with them on how to handle her pre prison experience.
但这段引述和报道的性质，成了那个大问题的代表：伊丽莎白·霍姆斯到底是不是个撒谎的骗子？
But this quote and the nature of reporting becomes this kind of stand in for the big question of, is Elizabeth Holmes a lying fraud?
还是
Or
她只是个被一连串有权势的男人、竞争对手，以及那些想打倒一个有着可能改变世界的伟大想法的年轻女性的那些人，所陷害的人呢？
is she a person who is just sort of like railroaded by a series of powerful men and people or competitors and people who wanted to take down a strong young woman with a big idea that could change the world.
而且我觉得这也是一部对新闻业持怀疑态度的很有意思的电影，确实如此。
And it's a really interesting skeptical movie about journalism as well, I would say, in Sure.
从她被呈现的方式来看。
In terms of the way that she's framed.
同时它本身也在尝试做新闻。
While also trying to do journalism itself
并且发现做新闻这件事非常困难，而且最终是主观的，我觉得任何真正的记者都会告诉你，它最终就是这样。
And finding the act of journalism very hard and ultimately subjective, which I think any real journalist would tell you that it that it ultimately is.
你尽量接近真相。
You try to get as close to the truth as possible.
你尽量摆出真实的事实。
You try to lay out real facts.
世界上确实存在事实，但你怎么把它们组合起来，真的取决于个人。
And there there are still facts in the world, but how you put them together, it really depends on the person.
确实是这样。
It does.
关于霍姆斯在她职业生涯的这个阶段，还有件挺有意思的事。
There's something interesting too about Holmes at this stage of her career.
我们聊过很多次这个话题，因为你丈夫的工作，也因为我们这些年做过的工作。
We've talked about this a lot because of the work that your husband does, because of work that we've done over the years.
经纪人简介和调查性新闻报道之间是有区别的。
There is a difference between a broker profile and an act of investigative journalism.
而伊丽莎白·霍姆斯恰好是这两者的对象，只是时间不同。
And Elizabeth Holmes was kind of the subject of both over time.
在这个案例里，这更像是她的团队可能把《纽约时报》的报道看作是在她入狱前让她人性化、挽回形象的机会。
In this case, this is really more of like her team probably sees the New York Times profiles and opportunities to kind of like humanize her and redeem her before she goes to prison.
《时报》可能持更怀疑的态度，但关于她所做所为的报道已经太多了。
The Times may have a more skeptical point of view, but there's also been so much reporting about what she's done.
她真的上过法庭。
She's literally gone to trial.
在这部电影里，我们从未听到《纽约时报》记者的声音。
We never hear from The New York Times reporter in this movie.
而且电影里没有提到《纽约时报》记者的名字，没错。
And The New York Times reporter is not named in the movie That's right.
我注意到了这一点。
Which I noted.
可能是有意为之。
Probably purposeful.
我猜是出于法律原因。
I assume legally.
但最终，那个人从未提供笔记，对。
But ultimately, that person never provides the notes Mhmm.
这些笔记来自那篇文章，而且福尔摩斯和埃文斯也没有提供所谓的采访录音。
That were taken from the piece nor do Holmes and Evans provide the supposed audio recordings
是的。
Yes.
关于那次采访的录音。
Of the interview.
所以我就……
And so I just...
我对故事的这部分感触特别深，因为我做过……
I latched on to this part of the story so deeply because I've done...
之前就做过类似的工作。
Just done this work before.
而且我做过……
And I've done...
我写过一些人物特写，有的靠笔记，有的靠录音。
I've written profiles where I've relied on my notes, I've written profiles where I've relied on the audio recording.
但我觉得，两者都不是百分之百准确的。
And neither is a 100% accurate is what I would say.
就像，即使你从上下文的角度去组织一句话，对。
Like, even the way that you frame contextually Right.
引用。
A quote.
而且这部电影，除了是对这一切的迷人描绘之外，它其实也是一部关于语言、以及我们如何用语言互相欺骗，或者因为沟通不清而被误解的电影。
And the movie is also, in addition to being this kind of fascinating portrait of all this stuff, it's like it's a movie about language and the way that we use language to deceive each other or the way that we can be misunderstood by not clearly communicating.
我在节目里也经常思考这个问题。
I think about this all the time on the show.
所以我觉得我在节目里说了什么，然后人们就会说，你说了这个。
So I feel like I say something on the show, and people are like, you said this.
然后我就想，我没那么说啊。
And I'm like, I didn't say that.
但你就是会听到你想听的东西。
But you hear what you wanna hear.
对。
Yes.
他们还会特别关注句子里的那个“我”字。
They're fixating also on the the I in the sentence.
他们会识别出……
They they identify...
他们说我创造了一个角色，然后他们说，也许你说的是他们创造了一个角色。
They're playing a character I created, and they say they say maybe you said they're playing a character they created.
但他们有一个非常具体的语言上的抱怨，虽然细微但很重要，因为它改变了引语的含义，而这个抱怨本来可以通过录音来澄清，而他们却……
But they have one very specific linguistic, but, you know, important because it changes the meaning of the quote complaint that could be clarified by tapes, and they were...
一遍又一遍地说他们录下了所有的……
Say over and over and over and over again that they recorded all of the
我们有录音。
We've got the tapes.
我们有录音。
We've got the tapes.
但他们从未拿出录音。
They never produced the tapes.
到最后，录音也从未被拿出来。
At the very at the very end, the tapes were never produced.
所以你就会想，你……
It's So, you know, then you're like, you...
就是……
There is...
这有可能，甚至可以被证明，而且他们说得还挺有道理的。
It's plausible, and it could even be proven, and they're making, like, a decent point.
但是，他们也没有证据。
But, also, they don't have the evidence.
那你该怎么办……
So what are you supposed to...
不。
No.
双方都没有证据。
Neither side has the evidence.
这明显激发了菲尔德尔的想象力，因为他在寻找任何机会，无论哪一方，来指出有人在针对她。对。
It clearly animates Fielder's imagination around this because he is looking for any opportunity in either direction to say someone's working against her Mhmm.
而且她在这个过程中没有得到任何同情，或者这里有一个确凿的证据。
And she's not receiving any kind of empathy in this experience, or here's a smoking gun.
我……
I...
这正好印证了大家的看法，就是说你这个人很虚伪，你只为自己服务，然后你还总是一副自己很……的样子。
This just confirms what everyone thinks, is that you're duplicitous, that you are working only in service of yourself, and then you're always constantly claiming that you're being...
你就是卡珊德拉。
You're Cassandra.
就是说你这个人不可信。
That you're, you know, you're not to be trusted.
所以卡珊德拉是对的。
And so Cassandra is right.
是不是没人相信卡珊德拉？
Is it that no one believes Cassandra?
抱歉。
Sorry.
卡珊德拉……
Cassandra...
谁……
Who's...
那相反的是什么？
What's the opposite of that?
狼来了的男孩？
Boy who cried wolf?
狼来了。
Boy cried wolf.
她是……
She's...
我觉得那是……的一个重要部分。
I think that that's a major part of...
是社会清算吗？
Is that social reckoning?
是的。
Yes.
没错。
That's right.
所以我才想到这个。
That's why I'm thinking of it.
我们也看到，那种人为的痕迹开始显现，比如比利和莉兹还戴着麦克风的时候。
We see also, like, the artifice starts to appear where there's a moment where Billy and Liz are still miked.
然后他们跑到另一个房间去谈话。
And they go and have a conversation in another room.
这真的是纪录片里唯一一次这么做。
It's really the only time that the documentary does this.
因为到了某个时候，比利和莉兹意识到了，就要求他们开始关掉麦克风。
Because at some point, Billy and Liz become aware and ask them to start cutting the mics.
对。
Yes.
但这次，他们是在谈话。
But in this one, they're having a conversation.
而且他们还在讨论拍摄内容，因为莉兹整个过程中都在写回忆录。
And they're also having a conversation about what's being shown because Liz is, working on a memoir throughout
一开始，她开着笔记本电脑。
The beginning, and so she has her laptop.
她有点想把它遮住。
And she's kinda trying to cover it.
所以对话的内容是莉兹说他们试图拍摄或正在拍摄我写的东西，但我不想让我的回忆录成为其中的一部分。
And so the conversation is about Liz saying they were trying to film or they were filming what I was writing, but I don't want my memoir as a part of this.
但我不……
But I don't...
这个项目的全部意义在于我应该展现自己……
The whole point of this project is that I'm supposed to be revealing, you know, to to show that I'm...
没有什么可隐藏的，我不是两面派。
Have nothing to hide, that I'm not duplicitous.
而比利持相反观点，你必须为自己辩护，你必须决定你想要什么和不想要什么。
And, you know, Billy takes the other side of you gotta stick up for yourself, and you gotta decide what you want and you don't want.
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