2026 年总决赛启示、字母哥下一站、布伦森的巅峰时刻，以及迈克·布朗的魔法之手——与道格·里弗斯对话

我觉得他得把这一招练出来。

I think that's a move he will have to develop.

我记得他新秀那年，我做电视解说的时候，常和波波维奇一起看韦恩迪训练。

I remember sitting with, Pop and, watching Wendy practice, his rookie year because I was doing TV.

就那两个月？

For those two months?

对。

Yeah.

就是那两个月。

For those two months.

我当时还说了这话，鲍勃听了直说谢谢。

And and I actually said it and Bob's like, thank you.

我说，他怎么老往后退啊？

Thank I said, why is he fading?

那是因为威尔特·张伯伦的问题。

Well, was the Will Chamberlain problem.

是的

Yeah.

直接上去投就行。

Just go up and shoot.

对。

Right.

为什么

Why are

你要往后退？

you going backwards?

是的

Yeah.

没人会封盖你的投篮。

No one's gonna block your shot.

而且，他罚球特别准。

Also, he's a great free throw shooter.

对。

Right.

这就是关键区别。

So that's the difference.

他真的特别会投篮。

He can really shoot the ball.

有时候他的平衡性有问题。

And it's a balance issue at times with him.

你能看出来他经常站不稳。

You could see he's off balance a lot.

这可能是力量问题。

You know, that may be strength.

也可能是平衡问题。

That may be balance.

还有疲劳。

And fatigue.

还有疲劳。

And fatigue.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以凯文·加内特当时有个小后仰跳投。

So KG had, he had the little turnaround Yes.

靠近底线时是这样，但我更喜欢他面筐进攻的样子。

Near the baseline, but then I always liked when he faced up.

哦。

Oh.

他会用那种急停晃步，停住然后

And he would do like the stutter step and stop and

做个小动作，应对各种防守。

do the little And he encounters to everything.

是的。

Yeah.

恩比德。

Wemby

恩比德需要一个这样的面筐型球员来配合他。

Wemby Great needs that face guy for Wemby to work with.

他们的专注度是一样的。

They have the same type of intensity.

没错。

Right.

不过，他简直就是个更高大的恩比德版本。

But Yeah, he's like a much taller Wembe based

是啊，KG的训练方式太厉害了。

Yeah, on KG's workouts were amazing.

我是说，他以前会把鞋子直接扔地上，这种做法我当教练时从没见过。

I mean, he used to put these shoes on the floor, which as a coach I had never seen.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，

You know,

我们当时用的是锥桶。

we used cones.

他会把两只鞋摆在地上，鞋尖朝外，就像球员的脚一样，因为他常说：我想针对脚步进攻。

He would actually put two shoes and make them face like the player, because he said, I wanna attack the feet.

所以他就会站在那儿，把鞋挪来挪去，模拟进攻脚部的动作。

So he would just, he would stand there and he moved the shoes over and attack that.

然后他又把两只鞋摆到另一边，继续进攻那个位置。

Then he put the two shoes over and attack that.

这招太聪明了。

It was genius.

所以他总是盯着脚看，而不是别的地方。

So he would always look at the feet over Yeah, anything

他想要攻击对方的脚。

he wanted to attack the feet.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

他还会教队员们，只要看到对方一只脚转动，他就知道那人已经完了，必死无疑。

And he would teach guys, he saw one foot just turn, say he's dead, he's dead.

他非常清楚自己该攻击哪里。

He knew exactly what he was gonna attack.

所以那真的挺让人佩服的。

So it was pretty impressive.

我记得有个叫德布斯切尔的家伙，他总是盯着对方的眼睛。

I remember there was the Dave DeBusher thing where he always looked at the guy's eyes.

对。

Yeah.

他说，不管球员在做什么，只要准备投篮，眼睛都会盯着篮筐。

And he wouldn't he said everybody who is about to shoot looks at the rim no matter what they're doing.

最后，他们肯定会看篮筐。

Eventually, they're gonna look at the rim.

对，他们必须得看。

Well, they have to.

这时候我就知道了。

And that's when I know.

他是唯一一个从来不看的人。

And he was like, the only guy who never did it

是厄尔·门罗。

was Earl Monroe.

突然之间，他开始投篮，而且你一直盯着那边看。

All of

你当时是怎么做到的？

a sudden, he was shooting and was like, you were looking over there.

你甚至是怎么……

How did you even

这真够厉害的。

That's pretty impressive.

但他说了，就那一次。

But he said that was the only one.

对。

Yeah.

他说他总是盯着对方的眼睛看。

But he was like, I always followed the eyes.

所以他防守时特别厉害。

That's why he was so good defensively.

所以KG是盯着对方的脚看。

So KG's looking at the feet.

他就是看到你拿球，站稳了，就盯着你的脚。

He just looked he's got the ball, looking at he squares up and he looks at your feet.

是的。

Yeah.

就算维姆比摆出蒂姆·邓肯的背身单打姿势，KG也会用那种小碎步停顿，然后你还没反应过来，他已经在你头上跳投了，就像个七尺高的勾手一样。

Even if Wemby had the Tim Duncan face up, KG kinda stutter step stop, and he's shooting over you, And then just like a seven foot jump hook.

对。

Yeah.

但他这招其实算两种动作。

But he That's two

比他现在用的多得多。

more shots than he has now.

对。

Yeah.

但在我看来，他背身面对你，是因为你根本不敢包夹他。

But just the face up to me is because you can't double team him.

他一眼就能看出你准备来协防。

He sees you coming.

他能把你彻底撕开，你知道的。

He will pick you apart, you know?

我觉得最后他们肯定会这么做。

And I think that's one thing they'll do in the end.

然后多让他在肘区接球，因为我觉得他整个赛季在那里效率很高，但好像后来他们就不怎么给他球了。

And then more work at the elbows, because I thought he was very efficient there most of the season, and it just seemed like they got away from him.

但我认为身体对抗和疲劳才是关键因素。

But I thought the physicality and the and the fatigue played a major factor.

他们还对他做了不少小动作，比如抢篮板时从背后撞他。

Well, they were doing a bunch of stuff with him too, like, on box outs that were like ramming him in the back.

他们一有机会就冲他下手。

Well, they hit him every chance they got.

这事儿必须得做。

You have to.

他们还有一招俄克拉荷马没用过，就是主动去冲击维姆比。

Other thing they did that Oklahoma didn't do, they attacked Wimby.

没错。

Yep.

是的

Yeah.

整个季后赛三轮，都没人敢打威姆比。

All three of the playoffs, no one attacked Wimby.

他们都躲着威姆比打。

They played away from Wimby.

尼克斯队呢，就是直接冲你来。

The Knicks, like, we're going right at you.

对。

Right.

我们就冲你打。

We're gonna attack you.

就是要逼你犯规。

We're gonna make you foul us.

就是要逼你动脚步。

We're gonna make you move your feet.

我觉得那场比赛打得真棒。

I I thought that was a great gameplay.

而且随着系列赛的进行，布伦森好像慢慢摸清了他的套路。

And it felt like Brunson kind of figured him out as the series went

一点点地找到了应对方法。

along a little bit

因为他简直把他打爆了。

because he really torched him

不过回过头看布伦森对上怀特，那几场真是让人想不到。

couple It's crazy past though when you look at at Brunson versus Wimby.

而且布伦森，

And and Brunson

身高差了整整18英寸。

18 inch difference.

布伦森现在是什么都能破解了。

Brunson is figuring anything out.

说实话，这简直让人难以置信。

Like, you know, it's it's unbelievable.

布鲁森，我真的跟你说，每次看他打球，你都会对他越来越佩服。

Brunson, I tell you, man, every time you watch him, you you get more and more impressed with him.

你看着他，总忍不住想他会不会也有发挥不好的时候。

I think you still watch him waiting for him not to be able to do what he does.

过去两年，整个联盟都在想，他不可能一直这样打下去。

You know, I think the whole league for two years are, well, he can't keep doing this.

他不可能做得到。

He can't.

但他就是做得到，这本来就是他的风格。

And he can, it's who he is.

他简直就像个随时要验证手感的球员。

He almost feels like he's like a heat check guy.

对。

Yeah.

整场比赛都是这样。

All game.

你明白吧？

You know?

就上一场比赛而已。

Just last game.

知道吗，拿了45分。

Know, the 45.

我的天，他一个人得了全队一半的分数。

I mean, come on, scored half the team's points.

他简直凭一己之力，帮纽约尼克斯赢下了这场可能决定总冠军的比赛。

Like, he willed a game for the New York Knicks to win a world championship.

是啊。

Yeah.

我周一做了一个播客，当时我正在整理我的篮球排名名单，把所有球员都排了个序。

So I did a pod on Monday, and I was, you know, my book of basketball where I ranked everybody.

排名最重要的标准就是，你是不是冠军球队里最顶尖的球员？

And the big thing for the rankings was were you the best guy on a title team?

你是不是那个核心人物？

Did you were you the alpha?

你有没有带一支球队走到最后，拿到冠军？我觉得这才是篮球的真正高度。

Did you take a team to the promised land, which I just think is a different level of basketball?

没错。

It is.

所以我觉得，

So I had,

我把布伦森排在了第41位，我改了好几次名单，把他排在了纳什、基德、卢卡这些球员前面。我觉得这恰恰说明了篮球的本质——成为冠军队里最核心的球员，像他在对阵克利夫兰系列赛第一场那样，在总决赛里持续发挥，尤其是第五场，我觉得那绝对是本世纪最伟大的总决赛比赛之一。

I put Brunson, I put him a bunch, I changed my list, and I put him 41, and I put him ahead of guys like Nash, and Kidd, and Luca, and I'm like, this is the whole point of basketball, is to be the best guy in a title team and to do the stuff that he did in game one of the Cleveland series throughout the finals, especially game five, which I think is in the running for one of the best finals games played this century.

是啊。

Yeah.

他从来没进过最佳一阵，但我现在觉得，他完全配得上这样的待遇。

So I you know, he's never been a first team NBA guy, but I feel like he has to be treated that way now.

我觉得他会的。

Think he will be.

你知道的。

You know?

投票的人好像也不太信。

It's almost like the voters didn't believe either.

你知道的。

You know?

我没投他。

I didn't vote for him.

我把他排在第二阵容。

Voted for him second team.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们就是不信。

They don't believe.

尽管他的球队战绩很好，他还是老样子。

Even though his team's record is great, he keeps doing the same thing.

现在四场季后赛，场均差不多29分？

About 29 points a game in four playoffs now?

对。

Yeah.

这四年里，那些数据都是沙伊的，都是科比的，其他人全都不算数。

This is a four year stretch where those are Shay's stats, those are Kobe's stats, everybody's Other

比迈克尔差远了，那些都是其他顶尖球员的数据。

than Michael, those are all the other great player stats.

没错。

Right.

还有件事，我老说，现在再讲一遍，管它牛不牛的，反正该来的都来吧——在我看来，我们根本没搞清楚怎么才算真正的顶级球员。

The other thing, I I keep saying it, and I'm gonna say it and tell the cows, you know, whatever, to come in or whatever they're they're supposed to do, we don't evaluate what a great player is right, in my opinion.

我特想跟你聊聊这个话题。

I was so excited to talk to you about this.

是的。

Yes.

因为赢球和领导力都是其中的一部分。

Because winning and leading is part of that.

如果你做不到这一点，那你就只是在打自己的球而已。

And if you can't do that, then really all you're doing is playing your game.

而且你还在刷数据。

And you're putting up stats.

是的。

Yes.

我知道，我得打好自己的球。

You know, I gotta play my game.

真正的赢家会打好自己的球，同时给队友留出空间，让他们也能发挥，还会主动鼓励大家，做所有该做的事。

Well, winners play their game, and they give room for everybody else on their team to play their game and they encourage, they do all the things that are required.

没错。

Right.

不只是拿个30分那么简单，对吧？

More than just score 30 points, you know?

他们带头，推动全队。

They lead, they push.

你知道，迈克尔就是这样带动大家的。

You know, Michael pushed.

他不仅激励队友，还懂得信任他们。

He pushed his teammates, but he also trusted.

有两场比赛，他们赢下的系列赛，关键都是靠迈克尔·乔丹的助攻。

You know, two of the games, two of the series they won came off on Michael Jordan pass.

他愿意在关键时刻做出正确的选择。

You know, he was willing to make the right play

他在91年总决赛中场均送出11次助攻。

at He was 11 right assists a game in the ninety one finals.

所以他总能在对的时间做出正确的决定。

So he was willing to make the right play at the right time.

而且布伦森带领球队赢得了NBA总冠军。

And Brunson led their team to an NBA title.

他不只是靠球队赢下NBA总冠军，是他主动带起来的。

He didn't just play his team to an NBA title.

嗯，这正是问题所在。

Well, and that's part of the problem.

我特别想知道，当我提到布伦森现在的位置时，大家会有什么反应。

And I was really interested to see how people would react when I was like, this is where Brunson is now.

对。

Yeah.

这就是我的评判标准。

This is my system.

当年德怀恩·韦德在2006年夺冠，还有沃尔顿在1977年夺冠，我都是这么看的。

I did this when Dwayne Wade won in o six, when Walton won in '77.

如果你只做对过一次，那比你十五年里只打到分区决赛可重要多了。

Like, if you do this once, that's more important than what you did for fifteen years if you if, you know, you made some conference finals and that's it.

这才是打篮球的真正意义所在。

This is the whole point of playing basketball.

因为篮球不是拳击，它是一项团队运动。

It's because basketball's not boxing, it's a team game.

对。

Yeah.

而且你得赢球，才能被称作伟大的球员。

And you have to win, to be considered a great player.

这涉及到一个方面

That's something about

想想08年保罗·皮尔斯夺冠对他意味着什么

Think about what Paul Pierce would o eight meant to him.

对

Yeah.

有些情况就像击败

There are some Like beating

奥布赖恩直接就那样了，诸如此类。

Obron straight up and all that.

有些人身边从来就没有出色的队友。

There are some guys that never had talent around him.

优秀球员的圈子本来就不大。

It's a small pool.

我总是拿巴克利当例子。

Well, I always use Barkley as the example.

没错。

Right.

对我来说，我从不因为巴克利没拿冠军就贬低他，因为我觉得在1993年，他面对的是历史上最伟大的球员，而且对方正处于巅峰状态。

Like, to me, I don't hold no title against Barkley because I feel like in 'ninety three, he was he went against the best player of all time at the peak of his power.

是的。

Yeah.

直到他去了菲尼克斯，他身边才终于有了有实力的队友。

He never had talent around him until he got to Phoenix.

对。

Right.

凯文·约翰逊上半场没给他支持，是吧。

Kevin Johnson let him down the first half Yeah.

那段时间。

Of that

后来他有机会了，不过说句实在的，公牛队里当时有不少人在这轮系列赛里都发挥过作用。

Then he had a chance, but they no offense, there were plenty of bulls who had went in that series in any way or form.

只是没发挥出来而已。

They were just not.

你懂的。

You know?

公牛队才是更强的那支队伍。

The Bulls were the better team.

说实话，我觉得那年尼克斯其实更强。

I thought the Knicks were the better team that year, really, if you want me to be honest.

但我当时在尼克斯队。

But I was on the Knicks.

记得吗？

Remember?

是的。

Yeah.

那场输给公牛队的事，到现在想起来我还是挺难受的。

I that that still bothers me, you know, that that loss to the Bulls.

我们那会儿年纪都偏大了。

We're up too old.

乔丹在第三场或者第四场拿了五十分吧？

And then Well, Jordan put the double nickel on you in game three, right, or game four?

第三场的时候，主要是媒体那边。

Well, in three, the the media.

哦，这个我喜欢。

I- Oh, I like this.

我不确定我们之前有没有聊过这个。

I don't know if we've talked about this.

对，是第三场。

Yeah, game three.

媒体那边到底发生了什么？

What happened with the media?

在第二场和第三场之间，有个三四天的休息期，是这样的。

It was, I wanna say, a three or four day break- Yeah.

这给了媒体机会，让他们能慢慢酝酿舆论。

Between game two and three, which allowed them to kinda capture themselves a little bit.

但更重要的是，媒体天天抨击乔丹，因为发现他去赌场了。

But more importantly, the media beat up Jordan every day because they saw that he was at a casino.

没错。

Right.

连续三四天，迈克尔·乔丹待在家里，听着外界说他辜负了球队。

And for four days or three days or whatever it was, Michael Jordan is sitting at home hearing that he let his team down.

一点都没有。

At all.

他现在还在乎吗？

Does he care anymore?

这到底怎么了

What's wrong with this

他在赌博。

He's gambling.

是的。

Yeah.

你明白吧？

You know?

从那以后，乔丹的事就发生了。

And, yeah, Jordan happened from that point on.

我觉得其中一个

I think one of

评价起来最棘手的地方，我就看尼克斯那支队伍，说到底还是查尔斯·史密斯那个回合，对吧？

the toughest things with evaluating so I look at that Knicks team, and it basically comes down to that the Charles Smith sequence, right?

是的。

Yeah.

你可以说

And you could

怪查尔斯·史密斯没投进，

blame, okay, Charles Smith should have scored.

也许你该找个比他更强的球员，诸如此类吧。

Maybe you should have had a slightly better player than Charles Smith, like etcetera etcetera.

或者你换个角度想，这恰恰说明了公牛队为什么那么厉害。

Or you go the other way and go, this is why the Bulls are so great.

他们防守篮下，场上连个中锋都没有，但那些球员关键时刻就是能顶住，这才是关键，

They protected the rim and they had no center out there, and those guys were so great in the moment, that's what made

让那支队伍如此特别。

that team special.

这就是关键所在。

That's the difference.

对。

Yeah.

并不是查尔斯·史密斯没投进那三个上篮。

Like, it's not that Charles Smith missed the three layups.

我最后时刻丢了BJ·阿姆斯特朗，他投进了一个三分。

I lost BJ Armstrong late in the game and he got a three.

这是我们平时反复练过的战术，得卡位但不能被卡死。

You know, it's a play we worked on all the time that you had to, you know, block out but not get sealed.

我得去卡霍勒斯·格兰特，可我蹲得太低了，结果被他死死顶住，等我想回头去防球传过来时，BJ已经投进三分了。

I had to block out, I think it was Horace Grant, and as I was blocking him out, I got too low, And now he seals me in that I couldn't get back on the ball swing and BJ makes a three.

那场比赛我们还丢了两个技术犯规的罚球，我一直觉得我是队里罚球最准的，现在想想，我那场打了三十七八分钟。

I think we missed two technical foul free throws in that I always took I was the best free throw shooter on I the think I played, I'm gonna go look now that I'm thinking about it, I think I played thirty eight minutes or thirty seven minutes.

这两个技术犯规罚球，都是在我下场的时候发生的。

Both texts were in the time that I was out of the game.

所以谁去投的，谁就没进。

And so whoever shot them missed them.

所以说，其实都是十件小事，每一件都很小。

So it was all like, it was like 10 little tiny things.

没错，一直都是这样。

Yes, always.

还有迈克尔·乔丹。

And Michael Jordan.

但说到底，我们队的第二号球员是谁？

But at the end of the day, who was our second best player?

对。

Yeah.

我不太确定。

I'm not sure.

斯塔克斯打球的时候确实挺拼的，但他并不是每晚都稳坐第二主力的位置。

Starks was, by the way he played, but he wasn't really the second best player every night.

他们有皮蓬，很明显谁是他们的二号人物。

Where, you know, they had Pippen, you know, it was clear who their second best.

所以他们——

So they-

皮蓬绝对是当时联盟里最顶尖的七名球员之一。

Pippen was one of the seven best guys in

没错。

the Exactly.

所以当你这么讲的时候，很难说我们一定赢，但我认为我们会赢。

So when you make that case, it's hard to say that you would have won, but I think we would have.

我们是有机会的。

We had a chance.

我说，圣安东尼奥那会儿也差不多吧？

I mean, San Antonio was a little like that too, right?

他们的二号球员是谁来着？

With like, who was their second best player?

整个赛季都是福克斯。

Well, was Fox all year.

但等到他们打到……可能哈珀已经成了第二人选。

But it might have been Harper by the time By they got to the

第七场或者第五场的时候。

game seven or by game

第五场，没错。

Game five, yeah.

第三场的时候，就是福克斯。

Game three, it was Fox.

对。

Yeah.

跟福克斯有关的事。

Something with Fox.

我的意思是，那会儿是哈珀。

I mean, it was, Harper.

哈珀有时候会犯错，然后被换下场，过一会儿又再换回去。

Something with Harper that he would make a mistake and come out and go back in.

所以说，有句老话讲，不亲自带一个球员，你就不真正了解他。

So, you know, there's this old adage, you don't know a player until you coach a player.

他有些行为导致他时不时被换下，但我一直搞不懂原因。

There's something that he was doing that made him come out at times, and I couldn't figure it out.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

他是个二十岁的控球后卫。

So he's a 20 year old point guard.

对，这也是原因之一。

Yeah, that's part of it.

你当年也是打控卫的。

You were a point guard.

是的。

Yeah.

他跟我一样，而且比我强太多了。

And he's like me too, because a 100 times better than me.

你真的很厉害。

You're really good.

但我大学时并不是控球后卫。

But I wasn't a point guard in college.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是队里助攻最多的。

I just led the team in assists.

是的。

Yeah.

我被选中后，还记得第一次跟迈克·帕特尔谈话，他说：‘你将成为亚特兰大老鹰队的控球后卫。’

And then when I got drafted, I remember my first conversation with Mike Patel, he said, you're gonna be the point guard of the Atlanta Hawks.

我就说吧，

And I'm like,

明白了。

okay.

我总算想起来了。

I figured it out.

就像丹尼斯·约翰逊那样。

It's like Dennis Johnson.

没错，就是这样。

Oh, exactly.

但八十年代的时候，其实并没有现在人们心目中那种传统的控球后卫。

But if we didn't have in the eighties, we didn't have some traditional point guards like the way people think of them.

那时候的控球后卫，就是负责把球带过半场的人。

Well, It's like guys who bring up the ball

而且艾西娅那种才是典型的控卫，但

and Isaiah run the was a traditional But

那就像是以赛亚、约翰·卢卡斯，还有托尼·阿奇博尔德那种类型。

then you would have the Isaiah John Lucas, like Tony Archibald types.

魔术师。

Magic.

魔术师并不算传统型控卫。

Magic wasn't traditional.

对。

Yeah.

他是个纯粹的

He was a pure

他是个纯粹的组织后卫。

he was a pure point guard.

对。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You know?

所以，我觉得哈珀就是这样的人，可能不是每次都能把事情做得完美，但这些他都会慢慢学会的。

So, yeah, I I think, Harper is that and probably didn't execute things properly all the time, you know, but he'll learn all that.

他是那种特别的球员。

I mean, he is special.

他是个难得的篮球天才，将来会成为他们队的二号人物。

He's a special basketball player, and he will be their second best player.

我说，

Like, I

我一直在想，他跟当年基德或者克里斯·保罗刚进联盟时是不是有点像。

was trying to think of him in the context of when, like, Kidd came into the league or Chris Paul.

那种一上来你就知道他不一般的球员。

People like that where you knew right away.

我对他就有这种感觉。

I feel like that with him.

对。

Yeah.

哈珀，是这样的。

Harper yeah.

但他们完全是两种类型。

But they're completely different.

哈珀是个得分手。

Mean, Harper's a scorer.

对。

Yeah.

他是个能得分的控卫。

He's a scoring point.

让我想起了罗德·斯特里克兰的终结方式。

It reminded me more of Rod Strickland with his finishing.

哦。

Oh.

我的意思是，哈珀总能从各种角度完成进攻，记得第五场比赛吗？他在篮下那次接球——

I mean, he he can Harper finishes at angles, you know, I think it was game five, the one where he was under the basket and come The

反向运球，没错。

reverse, yeah.

别开玩笑了。

Come on.

我自己在球场上根本投不进这种球。

I couldn't have made that in the gym by myself.

对啊。

Right.

我试十次，十次全丢。

I could have tried that shot 10 times, and I'm missing it all 10 times.

他却在总决赛里轻松完成。

He's doing it in the NBA Finals with ease.

真的太厉害了。

Know, it's amazing.

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So we just had the finals, and as always, I thought a lot about history and the eras intersecting some of the greatest matchups we've seen throughout history.

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得聊聊雷吉·米勒。

Gotta talk about Reggie Miller here.

说到 New Era，就想到那些横跨八九十年代的球员，雷吉·米勒就是典型——八十年代被选中，真正大放异彩是在九十年代。

Like, when you think about New Era, players that bridged eighties, nineties, February, Reggie Miller drafted in the eighties, really starts to hit it in the nineties.

最早我记得是91年。

First, there I think it was '91.

他当时在拉里·伯德职业生涯最后的高光时刻里，打出了91年步行者对凯尔特人的首轮大战。

He's in the the Larry Bird's last great moment, the ninety one Boston Indiana final first round.

然后就是94、95年他和尼克斯的那些经典对决。

And then we go through, now he has the Knicks battles in 9495.

再到99年。

And then you go to 99.

他们被LJ的四分进攻彻底击碎了心。

They get the heartbroken by LJs, four point play.

2000年，他们打进了总决赛。

2,000, they make the finals.

那时候真觉得雷吉终于要圆梦夺冠了。

And it really feels like Reggie's gonna finally get there and win it.

可惜的是，科比崛起了。

And then sadly for him, Kobe ascends.

还有1998年，他们离击败乔丹的公牛队最近，比谁都接近。

And then not to mention in 98, they came the closest out of anyone to beating Jordan's Bulls.

他的人生贯穿了伯德、乔丹、科比和奥尼尔，进入2000年后，他又迎来最后一搏。

So he intersects with Bird, Jordan, Kobe and Shaq, and then you go into the two thousands, and he has one last run.

他们差点就赢了篮网。

Like, they almost beat the Nets.

他没参与那场群架，但当时确实在那支队伍里。

He's not involved in the Artist Melee, but he's on that team.

他见识过太多东西了，真的。

He just saw a lot of things, man.

等他到二〇〇〇年代中期退役时，篮球早就变了样——当年他赖以成名的三分球，马上就要卷土重来，因为斯蒂芬·库里即将进入NBA，整个联盟的打法和空间结构都要翻天覆地。

And the best the sport's totally different by the time by the time he's he's leaving there in the mid two thousands, because this three point shot that he was special at, now it's about to come back in a big way because Steph Curry's about to join the NBA, and the league and the geometry of the league is about to change.

雷吉·米勒真是个传奇。

So Reggie Miller is a good one.

从八十年代一直到二〇〇〇年代中期，他一路见证，然后体育就变了。

Eighties all the way through the mid two thousands, and boom, sports changing.

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你提到球队之间那些细微的差别。

So you talk about like the the little differences between teams.

我去看了鸟人和多米尼克的那场比赛，你倒地的时候全场都为你起立鼓掌了。

Like, so I went to the Bird Dominique game, which you You were great got you got a standing o when you felled out.

是的。

Yeah.

那场面真棒。

That was cool.

那一次

That

挺好的。

was nice.

观众都很欣赏你。

The crowd appreciated you.

那次之后，我就对波士顿彻底死心了。

That was the breaking point for me with Boston.

没错，就是那一刻。

That was it.

我当时就觉得，我喜欢这些人。

You were like, I like these people.

是的。

Yeah.

我以前特别讨厌波士顿。

I hated Boston.

对。

Yeah.

当我...

When I Yeah.

那件事彻底改变了我对波士顿的看法。

That changed my entire mindset of Boston.

我喜欢这些人。

I love these people.

这些人挺不错的。

These people are pretty cool.

所以，多米尼克有一段时间，MVP排名第二。

Well, so Dominique, at one point, he's number two in MVP.

是的。

Yeah.

他连续五年都是联盟前五甚至前六的球员，这正是他能不能更上一层楼的关键时刻，对吧？

He's one of the five or six best players in the league for five years, and that's like his moment to either ascend or not ascend, right?

而伯德就是比他稍微强那么一点。

And Bird's like just a whiff better than him.

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因是，多米尼克的防守，我不能说特别出色，对吧？

Partly because Dominique, I wouldn't say was the strongest defender, right?

如果你现在来看，可能会觉得你得派不同的人去盯防伯德。

And you didn't have that maybe if you're doing it now, then you're saying you're throwing different guys at Bird.

我们当时说，他是个偶尔表现神勇的防守者。

We called it he was an occasionally great defender.

断断续续的。

Sporadic.

对。

Yeah.

我记得弗拉泰洛说过，有时候多米尼克是联盟里防守最好的球员。

I remember, Fratello saying that occasionally, Dominic is the greatest defender in the league.

没错。

Right.

我们希望这种情况能更频繁一些。

We just need that to be more.

不过我觉得他得分能力很强。

Well, but I think But he has a score.

但问题就在这儿。

But he's a well, that's the thing.

他在进攻端承担了太多，而那正是他最接近巅峰的时刻，对吧？

He's carrying a lot offensively, and he comes so and that's the closest he ever comes, right?

对。

Yeah.

然后你回过头来看湖人队，他们最终选择了沃西而不是他。

And then you go back to the Lakers who end up taking Worthy over him.

是的。

Yeah.

沃西最后成了那种关键先生，詹姆斯那种大场面球员，他有88年总决赛第七场那样的表现，而多米尼克在另一支球队，背负着更重的责任。

And Worthy ends up in all these games, he's big game James, and he has the big game seven and eighty eight, and Dominic's on this other team where he has a much bigger burden.

如果你把它们反过来

And if you flip them

你并不清楚。

You don't know.

你并不清楚，不过，对。

You don't know, but I Yeah.

我是说，特雷西·麦克格雷迪说过这样的话，他说如果我在湖人队，我就会……我当时说，不。

I mean, Tracy McGrady made that comment, like, that If I was on the Lakers, I would have and I said, No.

你就是没法确定。

You just don't know.

但你想想，如果多米尼克在Showtime湖人队会怎样。

But think about Dominique on the Showtime Lakers, though.

是的。

Yeah.

那场面肯定特别精彩。

Might have been like pretty spectacular.

那肯定特别有意思。

Would have been fun.

对啊。

Yeah.

毫无疑问。

For sure.

但他也不可能在总决赛里防住伯德。

But he also wouldn't have been able to guard Bird in the finals.

他更强的地方是

What he's biggers,

你知道的吧

you know?

是的

Yeah.

但那肯定会很有趣

But it'd been interesting.

我喜欢做这种假设

I I love doing that.

比如，如果当时有某个人在，他赢的场次是多是少

Like, if such and such was here when he had won as much or won less or won more.

是的

Yeah.

这确实很难说

I I think it's hard to say.

比如汤姆·钱伯斯就是另一个例子。

Like Tom Chambers is another one.

没错。

Yes.

他真的非常出色。

Who is really good.

要是当年他待在湖人队，而不是沃西，我们会不会把他奉为那个年代最顶尖的前锋之一？

It's like, if he had just been on the Lakers instead of Worthy, would we be talking about him reverentially as one of the best forwards in the years?

这确实有帮助。

It helps.

我说的是，魔术师之所以让我难以把他排除在历史前五之外，就是因为他的影响力。

I mean, Magic was, again, the reason Magic I struggle taking Magic out of the top five of all time.

对我来说，他排第五。

He's fifth for me.

是的。

Yeah.

不是因为他做了什么，而是他的存在。

Because of not what he did is his presence.

他的到来让卡里姆·阿卜杜勒-贾巴尔的职业生涯焕发了新生。

Made I mean, he resurrected Kareem Abdul Jabbar's career.

那他对篮球的热爱呢？

And his love for basketball?

对。

Yeah.

以前湖人队输球不断，表现也很差。

He'd gone from the Lakers were losing games, not playing well.

你记得他们第一场是跟快船打的吗？

I don't know if you remember their first game was against the Clippers.

是的，还有那场拥抱战。

Yeah, yeah, and the

拥抱战。

hug game.

那个拥抱的比赛。

And the hug game.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这件事彻底改变了贾巴尔职业生涯的后半段，影响非常大。

I mean, it I think that changed Jabbar's second half of its life, basketball wise, and it it was huge.

我忘了是谁在我的播客里说过这句话。

I forget who said this on my podcast.

我觉得是尼克·赖特，但我不太确定。

I'm gonna say it was Nick Wright, but I'm not positive.

就是最近的事。

It was recent.

有些球员打篮球是因为他们真心热爱这项运动，而另一些人打球则是因为他们极度渴望胜利，总想赢。

Certain players love playing basketball because they love playing basketball, and then certain players play because they absolutely love winning and wanna win all the time.

对。

Yeah.

而魔术师就是少数同时具备这两种特质的人。

And Magic was one of the few who was both at the same time.

他既真心热爱篮球，又特别特别渴望赢球？

Where he loved basketball, but he also really, really loved winning?

是的。

Yeah.

说起来，魔术师这个人还挺有意思的。

I don't you know, it's funny with Magic.

我刚进联盟那年，他们经常在密歇根搞巡回表演赛，我也参与了。

Going into my rookie year, they used to have that barnstorming tour in in Michigan, I was included in that.

对。

Yeah.

我们每到一个地方，比如兰辛，场场爆满。比赛结束后，说实话，他们真的会把门票收入直接搬进来，全是现金。

We would go and sell out, like, in in Lansing, and then after the game, and I'm not being honest, the gate, they would bring the gate in, the cash.

然后查尔斯·塔克，你知道的

And, Charles Tucker would, you know

就像教父一样。

It's like the godfather.

魔术的话，我会给十分。

It'd be 10 for Magic.

对。

Yeah.

艾西娅五分，多克一分。

5 for Isaiah, $1 for Doc.

你懂的。

You know?

那真是让人难以置信。

And it was it was it was unbelievable.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得我去过魔术家里的时候。

But I remember I remember going to Magic's house.

是的

Yeah.

我们坐在那儿，魔术师出去了。

We're sitting there and Magic was out.

我记得他正在后院打网球，对手是马克·麦圭尔。

I wanna say he's playing Mark Maguire tennis in the backyard.

我就坐在那儿

And I'm just sitting at the

他跟马克·麦圭尔打网球？

I'd he was playing Mark Maguire in tennis?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

是魔术师本人。

Magic was.

Magic？

Magic was?

他打的是马克，因为Magic家后院有个网球场。

He was playing Mark because Magic had a tennis court in the back of his house.

明白了。

Okay.

我们就在那儿，你知道的，根本没看比赛。

And we're just, you know, we're not watching the game.

我们坐在屋里，喝着酷爱饮料之类的，就是闲逛放松。

We're sitting in the house, you know, drinking Kool Aid or whatever, you know, just hanging out.

突然间，门被撞开，他把球拍扔到房间另一头，转身就走了。

And all of sudden, busts the door open, throws a racket across the room and just walks and leaves.

我当时就想，这到底发生什么事了？

And I'm like, what the what is going on here?

他输了。

And he lost.

他输了一场重要的比赛。

Lost He a serious match.

他说他输给了巴特·麦圭尔。

Said he lost to Bart McGuire.

他输了一场网球赛。

He lost a tennis match.

我想说，那天我们本来要去的地方，他根本不想去。

And I want to say wherever we were supposed to go that night, he didn't want to go.

我当时就想，这家伙真受不了输球。

I he I was like, whew, this guy doesn't like losing.

凯文·加内特不也是这样吗？

Well, wasn't that KG was like that, right?

训练的时候也是这样。

The practices.

是啊。

Oh, yeah.

KG。

KG.

你知道KG最棒的地方是什么吗？

You know what's great about KG?

他热爱训练中的对抗，也喜欢对方球队认真对待比赛的时候。

He loved the competition in practice, but he also loved when the other team was into it.

记得我们第一次训练，先发球员们输掉了。

Know, that first practice we had, we lost the starters lost.

那整个巴士行程，你知道的，我们在罗马。

And the whole bus ride, you know, we were in Rome.

是的。

Yeah.

整个巴士路上，埃迪·豪斯、托尼他们都在数落他。

The whole bus ride, Eddie Howes, Tony, they're giving it to him.

不停地数落他。

Just giving it to him.

凯文就说，行吧，没错。

And Kevin's like, all right, yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

第二天的训练，简直太棒了。

That next day, it was it was incredible.

他给那次训练带来的那种劲头。

The energy that he brought to that practice.

那天我跟蒂布斯说，我觉得咱们这回很难被打败了。

That was one of the days I told Tibbs, I was like, we're gonna be hard to beat.

什么？

What?

说到蒂布斯，他一走，第二年他们就拿了冠军。

Speaking of Tibbs, they just win the title the year after he gets finest.

是啊，确实如此。

Yeah, that's

真不容易。

tough.

你觉得这是你带的蒂布斯的积极方面，还是消极方面？

Do you take that as a positive or a negative of your Tibbs?

几天前我收到一封听众的邮件，他说蒂布斯用各种方式训练了这些球员，但我说，不，蒂布斯。

Because I got a great email a couple days ago from a listener who's like, Tibbs conditioned these guys in a lot of different ways, and like, No, Tibbs.

你确实应该为此得到一些认可。

You should get some credit for It's a

很多认可。

lot of credit.

从防守端来看，你知道，他们始终没偏离那个体系。

Defensively, you know, they didn't vary from that sense, the system.

布伦丹·奥康纳是我的助理教练——

Brendan O'Connor was my assistant coach-

是的。

Yeah.