与扎克·洛维探讨NBA夏季最佳辩论

比尔·西蒙斯的播客由 Ringer 播客网络推出，我们即将在周一推出新的《Rewatchables》节目。我们刚刚做了一期，是关于《异形》的。我和克里斯·瑞安、范·拉森，还有非常精彩的 CR 表演。他整个夏天都很出色。

The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where we have a new rewatchables coming on Monday. Just did one. We did species on Monday. Me, Chris Ryan, Van Lathen, an incredible CR performance. He's been on fire all summer.

你可以在 Ringer 电影的 YouTube 频道观看这期节目，非常有趣的播客。幻想橄榄球赛季已经进入射程范围了。NFL 赛季第一周实际上从现在起还有六个星期四就开始了，所以我们已经进入准备阶段。我们有《Ringer 幻想橄榄球秀》，我认为这是最好的幻想橄榄球播客，有克雷格·科尔贝克、丹尼·凯利、丹尼·海弗茨主持。你可以以音频播客或视频播客的形式观看他们在 YouTube 上的节目，因为我们有一个专门的幻想橄榄球 YouTube 频道。你还可以查看我们制作的《Ringer 幻想橄榄球指南》，我们一直在不断更新和添加新的内容。我们会让你为幻想橄榄球赛季做好充分准备。

You can watch that on the Ringer movies YouTube channel, really, really funny podcast. Fantasy football season, we're in range now. Week one of the NFL season kicks off really six Thursdays from now, so we're in range. We have the Ringer Fantasy Football Show, which I think is the best fantasy football podcast, Craig Korlebeck, Danny Kelly, Danny Heifetz, and you can watch that as a podcast, as a video podcast, you can watch them on YouTube because we have a fantasy football YouTube channel, and you can check out the Ringer Fantasy Football Guide that we did, which we keep adding to and adding different things. So we will have you ready for fantasy football.

那些人会在某个时候陆续加入节目。你可以看到背景里我有一个新的布景，但我们还没来得及装饰。我在背景里放了一些东西，甚至还没挂到墙上，只是靠在那儿。你可以看到我的手指指着 1972 年 NBA 的塔牌贴纸，还有一张我写的书的海报，上面是名人堂的内容。

Those guys will be coming on at some point here. You can see in the background, so I have a new set that we have not decorated yet. I put some stuff up in the background that's not even on the wall. It's leaning against stuff, but you can see, do my finger, there's 1972 NBA tops on cut. There's my book poster with the Hall of Fame thing.

你能看到上面还有《魔术师与伯德》的脚、芬威球场的标志、我的朋友在玩浴缸，还有像是迈克尔·迈尔斯在背景里注视着我们。这个布景将会非常棒，是我们花了不少时间打造的。整个夏天，这个播客和《Rewatchables》节目，我都计划重新邀请嘉宾。我刚刚才意识到，我再也不想用 2010 年那种通过 Zoom 的方式来邀请嘉宾了。我不太喜欢通过 Zoom 来采访某人的体验。所以我们会有专业的化妆师，我们还在好莱坞打造一些其他令人兴奋的东西。

You can see Bird of Magic's feet up there, the Fenway sign, my guy crocking the tubs, Michael Myers kind of watching us from the background. This set's gonna be awesome, and it's something that we've spent some time on, and over the course of the summer on this podcast and the rewatchables, like, I'm gonna start having guests again. Like, I just, I never wanted to have guests in the same way that I was doing in the 2010 on Zoom. I don't really like the experience of interviewing somebody on a Zoom. So we're gonna have studio hair, we're building some other stuff in Hollywood that we're excited about.

总的来说，你知道的，对我们来说，视频内容的探索几乎已经持续了十四年，从 Grantland 时期就开始了，那时我和戴夫·雅各比一起做了我们所有的音视频内容。我们在一个电气柜改的房间里建了一个工作室。突然之间，我们开始邀请大牌嘉宾，我们做了比尔和杰伦的 NBA 季后赛系列节目。一直以来，我们始终在视频内容方面保持活跃。

And just in general, like, you know, this has been almost a fourteen year odyssey with video stuff for us, dating back to Grantland and me and Dave Jacoby doing all the audio video stuff we did. We built a studio and electrical closet. All of sudden, we're having big guests in there. We're doing the Bill and Jaylen NBA play season series. And, you know, we've always been in the mix with video stuff.

疫情确实让我们倒退了一步。但你知道，突然之间，视频播客的标准开始提高，画面开始变得更好看。我以前用的是 ThinkPad 上糟糕的摄像头，抱歉，但我相信我们所有的内容在 2025 年剩下的时间里都会越来越好，包括这个播客。我真的很兴奋能真正探索这个工作室空间。接下来，扎克·洛将加入我们，我们将讨论 NBA 的话题，尽管现在是七月的平淡期，但我们还是有很多话题可以聊，会是非常有趣的播客。我们会休息一下，然后请来 ProJam 和 Bisaklo。

COVID really knocked us back. And, know, all of a sudden video podcasts, the bar started getting raised, they started looking better. I had a terrible camera on my ThinkPad, sorry, but I think all of our stuff's gonna continue to look better as we go through the rest of 2025, including this podcast, and I'm excited to explore the studio space literally. Coming up, Zach Lowe, we're talking NBA because we just had a lot of stuff to talk about, even though it's like the doldrums of July. A lot of topics, really fun podcasts, and we're going take a break, bring in ProJam and then Bisaklo.

好了，扎克·洛来了。我们是在周三上午录制这期节目。很高兴见到你，扎克。你知道，你马上就要消失了。

Alright. Zach Lowe's here. We're taping this on a Wednesday morning. Good to see you, Zach. This is you're about to disappear.

你知道，就是那种你离我们消失还有几周时间的感觉，然后我们就一个月都看不到你了。你在 NBA 赛季结束后会彻底放松一下，然后到了九月中旬我们再重新见到你。

You this is when you you're, like, a couple weeks away from we just don't see you for, like, a month, and you you you decompose from the NBA season. And then you regenerate, and you grow again when we get to mid September.

今年我其实没那么多借口需要放松了，毕竟我有三分之二的时间都没工作，但我还是会好好放松一下。我得说，即使在欧洲我也会随时准备录制播客，因为你永远不知道 NBA 会发生什么。每年都会出现一些突如其来的重要新闻。所以我已经做好准备，以防万一又有什么新闻突然冒出来。

I don't really have as many excuses to have to decompress this year considering I was not employed for two thirds of it, but I'm going to decompress nonetheless. I will say I'm gonna be podcast ready in Europe because you just you don't you don't know anymore with the NBA. There's always been a there's been more and more every year, there's a big story that hovers or that comes out of nowhere. So I'm I'm ready just in case something comes out of nowhere.

我喜欢我无意中把 'decompress'（放松）说成了 'decompose'（分解）。我们才开始一分钟，我就已经说错词了。你去了维加斯，你的夏季联赛计划我很喜欢。你去了，但其实一场夏季联赛比赛都没去看。

I like that I accidentally said decompose instead of decompress. I've already had we're one minute in, and I'm already screwing up words. You were in Vegas. Your summer league plan, I love. You you go, and you don't actually go to any summer league games.

你去那儿只是为了聊聊天、喝喝咖啡、喝喝鸡尾酒，偶尔吃顿肉，同时你只是在收集信息。这其实是我们第一年讨论这个话题的时候的事情吧？就是2012年全明星周末前后，我们派你去的时候，我当时说，什么都别去参加，就尽可能多和人聊聊。现在你已经完全接受了这一点。

You're just there to gossip and have coffees and cocktails and occasionally a meat dinner, and you're just gathering information. This is something what was the first year we talked about this? The twenty twelve All Star Break or whatever when we sent you, and I was like, don't go to anything. Just talk to as many people as you can. Now you've embraced that.

这已经变成了一种生活哲学，你只是在不断收集各种东西，而你也不知道它们什么时候会派上用场。它们会不会出现在一个播客里？可能不会。但你只是在收集信息。

It's become a life philosophy, and you're just gathering things. And you don't know when they're gonna pop up. Are they gonna pop up in a podcast? They might not. But you're just gathering info.

当时人们谈论的头号话题是什么？你觉得这个话题在主流媒体上没有被广泛讨论？

What was the number one thing people were talking about that you felt like was not being talked about in the mainstream?

哦，主流媒体没有讨论的？好吧。我当时觉得头号话题其实非常主流。那是什么？嗯，就是勒布朗。

Oh, not talked about in the mainstream. Okay. So I had a made the the number one topic is very mainstream. What's that? Well, it's LeBron.

那是当时绝对最热门的话题。我们来聊点非主流的吧，来点地下话题。

That was, like, the number one topic of conversation by far. Let's go not mainstream. Underground.

地下话题。我们来聊聊九十年代早期的独立摇滚吧。

Underground. Let's go early nineties indie rock.

我得说，虽然这个话题已经被讨论过一些了，但我认为是关于扩张欧洲市场的议题，现在到底发生了什么？为什么他们突然之间好像放缓了节奏？现在的时间表是怎样的？我想这大概是当时NBA圈子里比较偏技术流的讨论话题。

I would say I mean, this has been talked about, but I would say expansion, Europe, what's happening? Why do they seem to be slow playing it all of a sudden? Is this like what is the timetable now? I guess that was like the nerdy NBA topic of discussion.

是的，后来也稍微透露了一点出来。这真的很有趣，对吧？之前看起来这件事几乎是板上钉钉的，过去几年一直觉得这事肯定会发生，我认为亚当·肖华也希望它发生。我觉得当时有一群老板都支持这件事，而且那次媒体交易的规模也很大。但现在我觉得有些老板不愿意再放弃自己的利益了，这也很合理，因为不管他们怎么安排，你都要从原来的三十分之一变成三十二分之一，或者媒体权益分成从三十二分之一再稀释。所以你实际上是在放弃股权，放弃价值。那么问题就来了：我为什么要放弃这部分价值，我能得到什么回报呢？

Yeah, and it trickled out a little bit. It's really funny how it's changed, right, where it just seemed like a lock, it was gonna happen for the last few years, and I think Silver wanted it to happen. I think there was a consortium of owners that wanted it to happen, and this media deal was so big, I just think there's owners that don't want to give up money anymore, and it makes sense, because however they rig it, you're still giving up, it goes from onethirtieth to onethirty two, or onethirty second for the media thing. So you're giving up equity, you're giving up value. So then the question will be, well, what am I getting to give up that value?

以前球队的价值还比较低的时候，大家觉得没问题，因为每个老板都能得到额外的收益，我们也可以提前买断这部分股权。但现在如果你要花六七千万甚至上亿美元买一支扩张球队，那你为什么还要再额外掏钱，给每个老板买断他们的媒体权益，或者自己放弃媒体权益呢？我觉得这是个真正的问题。两个月前我就谈过这个话题，其中詹姆斯·多兰是最反对的人之一。

And before, when the franchise values were lower, it's like, well, then each of you will get this extra thing. We'll buy out that equity upfront. But now if you're paying $67 8,000,000, or billion dollars, whatever it is for an expansion team, why would I then also want to sweeten the pot for every owner to buy their media rights too, or not get media rights for myself? I think it's a real problem, and I think there's a bunch I talked about this two months ago. James Dolan was the biggest one against it.

他就是反对亚当所做的一切

He's just against everything that Adam

沙利文，是的。他想要什么？比如，在董事会会议上，我们怎样才能让尼克斯投赞成票？

Sullivan Yeah. Wants What would James Dolan be for? Like, how can we get a yes vote from the Knicks in a board of governors meeting?

你有没有听说过任何关于过去五年他为什么变得如此反对亚当·西尔弗的情报？比如说，这个情况是怎么发展起来的？

What what do you have any intel on what happened that made him such an adversary to Adam Silver over the last five years? Like, why how did this develop?

我认为这始于他对收入分成的不满，因为他所在的尼克斯队是一支大市场球队，必须投入大量资金到收入分成体系中。然后这一点又延伸为他头脑中形成了一个想法，认为NBA联盟办公室的规模实在太大了，浪费了太多钱。为什么这么多拿着贵宾通行证的人来麦迪逊广场花园看我的比赛？他们到底是谁？为什么会这么臃肿？

I think it started with displeasure over revenue sharing being one of the big market teams that has to pay so much into it. And then it dovetailed into, like, he just got this bee in his bonnet that the NBA league office is, like, way too big. It wastes money. Why are all these who are all these people that are coming to my games at Madison Square Garden with their VIP passes? Who are like, what why why does it why is it so bloated?

他逐渐变成了那种几乎像财政保守派一样的人，针对联盟办公室。至于你提到的扩张问题，比如，这是当时董事会成员试图弄清楚的一个话题，比如，谁是反对扩张的这一派？我至今也没有特别明确的答案，除了知道多兰属于反对方。但我不确定这是否真的存在一个明确的反对方，更像是每个人都在用他们自己的方式来解决同样的数学问题，比如，我能获得多少扩张费，同时又会损失多少全国电视转播收入，球队估值如何，以及我潜在出售球队的时间表。最终是赚了还是亏了？

He became one of those, like, almost like a fiscal conservative about the league office. But to your point about expansion, like, that was the topic of, like, people were trying to figure out decides, like, who who is the anti crowd in the board of governors? And I still don't really have a lot of great answers to that other than Dolan is part of the anti crowd. But I I I don't know if it's an anti crowd as much as it is people are trying to do their version of the same math problem in terms of like, what's the expansion fee that I get versus the national TV revenue that I lose versus the valuation of my team versus my timetable of potentially selling my team. Does it net out a big plus, a big minus?

我觉得这并不是一个多么复杂的数学问题。我之前和一位球队老板聊过这个话题，他说其实没那么复杂，你只需要按照自己的方式做预测，找出对你来说最划算的方案就行。这位老板是支持扩张的，他还催促说，我们能不能赶紧推进这件事？

I think everyone it's it's not like that complex of a math problem. I was talking to one owner about this while I was out there. He was like, it's not that complicated. You just have to do your projections your way and figure out what works for you. This was a pro expansion owner who's kind of like, we can we get a move on with this?

但你知道，从那个角度来看，这次董事会的新闻发布会显得有点奇怪。

But you know, it was a strange Board of Governors press conference in that sense.

此外，还有一些情况是，某些特许经营权或许可以搬到另一个城市，并获得更大的成功，这也是这个问题的另一个方面，特别是新奥尔良。我不是想在新奥尔良引发恐慌，我也不能确定当地是否有足够的球迷基础真正在意这件事。但我知道，Smoothie King球馆的租约好像在2029年到期。新奥尔良在过去50多年里一直在尝试职业篮球，但这似乎一直不是一个成功的实验。如果像你我这样的球队老板被问及意见，我可能会说，虽然我们确实可以扩展到32支球队，但这并不意味着我们就应该这么做。我们现在从媒体版权方面赚了这么多钱，我真的不确定你还能从哪里获得足够的回报来弥补损失。

Well, and there's some situations where there's some franchises that maybe could move to a different city and be more successful, and that's the other piece of this, like specifically New Orleans. And I don't mean to start panic on New Orleans basketball, I'm also not sure there's enough of a fan base in place to even care that much, but that lease at the Smoothie King lease expires, I think, in 2029. This is an experiment that has not worked for fifty plus years in New Orleans with professional basketball, and if, like, if you and I owned a team, and they asked us what we thought, and I was like, well, we definitely have enough players to go to 32 teams. That doesn't mean we should. We're making so much money from the media rights, I'm not even sure where you could give me back that would make it worth it.

有几个城市可能会拥有一个能够成功的球队。比如西雅图，早在你我共事之前我们就一直在说这个。拉斯维加斯也确实很有趣，还有墨西哥城也是他们非常看好的城市，对吧？所以你有这三个城市。另外还有纳什维尔，我认为其他联盟已经抢先一步进入了这个市场，比NBA更快地抢占了先机。但当我看到新奥尔良的情况时，我不清楚这支球队在目前的状态下到底值多少钱，也不清楚它在Smoothie King球馆、在一个显然对篮球反应不如其他市场那么热烈的市场中比赛时的价值。如果有人买下这支球队，直接搬到西雅图，支付所有搬迁费用，而且你又不需要分割媒体版权收入，这似乎就是未来的发展方向。我直接说吧，我确实听到了一些风声，似乎新奥尔良的情况正在朝这个方向发展。

There's a couple cities that could potentially a team I think could thrive. I think Seattle, you know, we've been saying that since before you and I worked together. Vegas is definitely interesting, and Mexico City is the other one they're all excited about, right? So you have those three. You also have Nashville, which I think some of the other leagues jumped into and grabbed that market before the NBA did, but I look at a situation like New Orleans, I don't know what that team is worth in its current state, I don't know what it's worth with playing in the Smoothie King, playing in a market that clearly has not responded to basketball in the same way these other markets, and it's like if somebody bought them and just moved them to Seattle and paid everybody relocation fees, and then you didn't have to split your media rights, that seems like where this is headed, and I think there's, I'm just gonna say it, I think there's some buzz starting that way, that this New Orleans thing maybe is the situation.

你有没有听说过其他哪支球队也有可能成为搬迁的潜在目标，还是说只有这一支？

Is there any other franchise that you would think could potentially be a relocation threat, or is that the only one?

我目前没有听说过其他任何搬迁威胁，但根据你刚才说的内容，有几个相关的小话题可以展开。我们先暂时搁置一下新奥尔良的问题，因为我之后还想再回到这个话题。我只是想说，我在董事会新闻发布会上注意到一个很有趣的现象，就是亚当·西尔弗多次特意强调，NBA欧洲计划与扩张有关，但又不完全等同于扩张。你大概也表达过类似的观点，他说了三到四次，就像不是非此即彼的关系，但两者之间确实存在某种联系。

I have not heard anything about any other relocation threat, but there's a couple of subtopics that that based on what you're saying. Let's put a pin in the New Orleans thing because I wanna I wanna come back to that. I just felt I was at the Board of Governors press conference, and I just felt it was it was notable to me how often, and it was like three or four times, Adam Silver went out of his way to say, so our whole NBA Europe thing is separate from expansion, but kinda also connected to expansion. You said some version of that, like three or four times. Like, it's not an eitheror, but they are connected in some way.

这让我突然想到，我们是否低估了它的发展程度？这是否是一个二选一的情况？我们是否现在更优先考虑在海外做另一件事，比如在这些城市组建球队，尝试让这个项目盈利，让它真正落地，而不是扩张？

And it just like, it made me think, is this thing like even further along than we realize? Is it is it a little bit of an either or? Is it like we want it we're now prioritizing this other thing abroad? Like like accumulating these teams in these cities and trying to make this thing profitable, make it real? Is that now on the front burner versus expansion?

我觉得很值得注意的是，他多次主动提到了这一点，甚至没有人问他，他就主动多次提起。

I just found that notable how often he sort of preempted like, no one asked him about it. He just preemptively brought it up several times.

嗯，这很重要，因为他是我们当中少数几个在新闻发布会上比较有明确意图的人之一。如果他主动释放了一些信号，你就得相信，这些举动背后确实有深意。我认为欧洲对他们来说是一个巨大的机会，我想他们自己也清楚这一点。谈到球员资源时，回想一下我们之前讨论过的2000年代中期那段艰难时期，从人才角度来看真的很糟糕。当时入选全明星赛的一些球员，现在回头看，你会想，‘天哪，是他？’而如今联盟的人才深度要强得多。

Well, and that's important because he is one of the more purposeful press conference people that we have. And if he's if he's putting little buttons out there, you just have to trust, alright, there's real intent behind this. I think Europe is a huge opportunity for them, and I think they know it. When you're talking about the the player pool, man, when you go back to the we've talked about this before with the mid two thousands, how rough it was from from a from a talent standpoint. Some of the people that made all star games, you know, some like, you go back to read some of my old trade value columns.

有些球员当时排名三十一，你都会惊讶，‘这人也能上榜？’但现在联盟的人才储备已经深厚多了。我在想，也许不在这边扩张的原因之一就是他们可能在考虑：如果我们搞一个欧洲项目，可能需要更多的人才，比如欧洲本土球员加上一些美国球员，一些三十出头的球员，比如像奥斯汀·里弗斯这样的球员，现在似乎早早就离开了联盟，因为球队更愿意冒险选择一个次轮秀。我觉得欧洲对他们来说是个大好机会，那边的赛季时间不同，比赛时段也不同，就是更多的篮球内容。

Some of the people who were like, number 31, you're like, woah, that guy? And now the league is just so much deeper, and I wonder, like, part of the reason you don't do expansion here is because you're thinking, well, maybe if we have some sort of Europe thing, maybe we need a little more talent that way, the Europe talent combined with some Americans, some people that in their early thirties, like you see like the Austin Rivers types of players just seem to leave the league like a year too early now, you know, because there's just teams who would just rather take a chance on a second rounder. I think Europe's a big opportunity for them, and the seasons are a little different. The time of the day is different. It's just more basketball.

有更多的东西可以提供。我的问题是，他们是否可以尝试收购一个联赛？我甚至不知道这是怎么操作的。比如，他们可以直接买下欧洲联赛（Euroleague），或者收购相关的资产吗？我知道这些联赛是由各支球队组成的，但我不清楚如果不直接挑战现有联赛，他们怎么进入这个市场。

It's more things to offer. My question with that is, could they just try to buy a league? I don't even know how this works. Like, could you just try to buy the Euroleague, or buy, like, the connecting properties? I know the teams make up it, but I don't know how you get in without directly challenging the league that already exists.

哦，我觉得你就是在直接挑战现有的联赛。所以你

Oh, I think you're directly challenging the league that already exists. So you're

就是在针对它下手。

going after it.

我不太清楚收购一个联赛的具体机制。比如，我们在这个话题上有点超出我的知识范围了。但我确实知道，比如说，他们了解这些城市。他们已经确定了一些城市。如果我们要这么做，我们就会进入那个城市。而那个城市已经有了一个标志性的篮球队。

I don't know the mechanics of acquiring a league. Like, we're getting a little out of my depth on this but I do know that, like, take take they know the cities. Like, they've identified some cities. Like, if we're gonna do this, we're gonna be in that city. And that city already has a landmark basketball team.

对吧？那NBA和皇家马德里之间的关系是怎样的？如果皇家马德里成为这个新联赛，或者半新半旧的联赛的一部分，那么皇家马德里作为一个更大的体育俱乐部的一部分，拥有篮球、足球和其他项目，那这种合作关系会是什么样的？财务结构又会是怎样的？

Right? How what is the arrangement between the NBA and Real Madrid? If Real Madrid becomes part of this whatever new league, semi existing league, whatever it is, well, Real Madrid is part of a larger sports club that has basketball that has soccer and all this other stuff. So what does the partnership look like? What does the finances look like?

我觉得像这样的现有球队，也一定在讨论范围内。我不太了解其中的经济细节。他只是多次提到这件事，我确实认为他们看待这个问题非常简单：我们认为这些球队目前的运营方式根本赚不到足够的钱。我们认为我们更擅长运营，我们进来之后就能赚很多钱。

I think that's that's but existing teams like that, I think, are part of the conversation too. I don't know the economics of it. He just brought it up a lot of times, and I do think they just look at it as a very simple, like, we don't think these teams, as they're currently existing, are making nearly enough money. We think we can come in, we're better at it, and we'll just make a lot of money.

嗯，所以也许这是一种情况：他们进来后，几乎与联盟合并，并购买每支球队的小部分股份，而球队则出售大约三分之一的股份。所以我不太清楚。我们对这方面了解不多，但重要的是我们都觉得有些不对劲，扩张计划似乎已经降温，而欧洲方面的动向似乎变得越来越重要。那么，你觉得新奥尔良的情况如何呢？

Well, so maybe it's a situation where they come in, they almost merge with the league, and they buy smaller stakes of each team, and the teams sell off like, you know, one third. So I don't know. We don't we don't have enough intel on that, but the the important thing is both of us feel like something is something is amiss, that that expansion seems to have cooled off, and that the Europe thing seems like it's it's kind of raising importance. So what's your New Orleans piece to this?

关于这个话题一，我之前想先标记一下。你肯定很感兴趣，因为你最近一直在关注那些愚蠢球队的回归，对吧？是的，而且你对此比我刻薄多了。

So a couple this is topic one that I wanted to put a pin in. You this is right up your alley because it just goes into you've been having a field day with the return of the dumb teams. Right? Yeah. And so you're much meaner about it than I am.

但是

But the

我非常喜欢，而且这是我夏天最开心的事情之一。我非常高兴这些愚蠢的球队又回来了，太棒了。

I love it, and I'm really it's been one of the highlights of my summer. I'm so glad the dumb teams are back. It's great.

那种轰动效应简直还在持续，我参加的每一顿晚餐、每一杯咖啡、每一次鸡尾酒会，都会有人谈起休赛期的交易，哪些你喜欢，哪些你不喜欢。几乎每场都会提到，比如，鹈鹕队和老鹰队的那笔交易到底怎么回事？那笔交易有多疯狂？然后这些话题又和NBA新闻周期交织在一起，尤其是当季后赛和一些新闻事件同时发生的时候，新闻量实在太大了。

There's just the the amount of buzz that still like, every dinner I had, every coffee I had, every cocktail I had, there was some version of like, you know, everyone goes over the off season moves, what you like, what you didn't like? Every single one had a version of like, man, that Pelicans Hawks trade. Like, what happened there? Like, how how crazy was that? And then it dovetailed into it it got like the NBA news cycle can be just there's so much going on, particularly if if the playoffs are also going on at the same time as some news events.

你只能快速浏览一些内容。比如，等等，我们先暂停一下。新奥尔良和萨克拉门托刚刚任命了新的总经理，乔·杜马斯和斯科特·佩里，这简直让人难以置信。他们真的做过招聘流程吗？他们就是想要那两个特定的人吗？

You just sort of fast forward through stuff. There was a lot of, like so let's just hold on for a second. New Orleans and Sacramento just hired new GMs, Joe do Joe Dumars and Scott Perry, just like, no. Did a search happen? They just wanted those specific guys?

他们是怎么选中这两个人的？如果我是球迷，你告诉我，根本没有面试流程吗？难道就是突然之间他们就得到了这份工作？这背后是不是有很多

How did they land on those specific guys? If I'm a fan, like, you there was no interview process? Was there like, what like, they just got these jobs out of nowhere. There was a lot

这方面的讨论也很多。是的，还有很多人重新讨论这些交易。我认为杜马斯表现得好像有很多球队在追逐他一样，这本身就说明问题。杜马斯是个不错的人，但活塞队过去几年结束的方式，说实话，几乎不可能更糟糕了。

of that talk too. Yeah. And people that have been retrades. I think Dumar's made it seem like he had multiple teams coming after him, which just goes, Dumar's a nice guy. But the way that the last couple years of the Pistons thing ended, yeah, you almost can't do worse.

我是说，你知道，你没有让我对啤酒失去兴趣。你其实可以做得更差，甚至可以差很多。他曾经做出的那些操作，比如组建2004年的冠军球队，并在2000年代中期有过一段不错的时期，但之后有七年时间，大家都在问，你到底在干什么？

Mean, know, issues. You didn't go cold my beer. You can actually do worse. You can do much worse. But moves he made, he built that 2004 title team and had a really nice mid-2000s, and then there was a seven year run where it's like, what are you doing?

他还将很多事情交给了特洛伊·韦弗，我个人认为他在底特律的表现非常糟糕。当你回顾所有关于底特律的事情时，你因为用第一顺位选中凯特·坎宁安而得到了加分。听起来不错，但我敢肯定，我儿子都能做出这个选择。总的来说，杜兰的那笔交易我觉得还算可以。

He also turned a lot over to Troy Weaver, who I just think was terrible in Detroit. You go back to all the Detroit stuff, and you're getting points for drafting Kate Cunningham first. It's like, cool. Pretty sure pretty sure my son could've done that. But for the most part, the Durin trade, I guess, was okay.

那是在他负责期间发生的。但是

That was on his watch. But

大部分年轻核心球员都是特洛伊·韦弗选中的。

Most of the young most of the young core belongs to Troy Weaver.

现在以赛亚·斯图尔特。

Now Isaiah Stewart.

我记得汤普森，我相信也是特洛伊·韦弗选中的人。

I saw Thompson, I believe was a Troy Weaver pick.

蒙蒂·威廉姆斯也是特洛伊·韦弗选中的吗？

Was Monty Williams a Troy Weaver pick?

那也没太成功。是的。除了年轻核心之外的其他一切才是问题所在。如果你和当时与底特律进行过交易谈判的人聊聊，就会发现除了年轻核心之外的其他事情都一团糟。比如这里头绪太多，有阿恩德·泰勒姆、特洛伊·韦弗、老板汤姆·戈尔，到底谁说了算？然后是他们围绕年轻核心挑选的球员，缺乏投射能力，这让他们一开始就处于不利的位置。

That didn't go great either. Yeah. It was all the other stuff around the young core that was if you talk to people who had sort of trade talks with Detroit during that time, it was all the other stuff that was kind of a mess. Just like the amount of voices, Arnd Tellem, Troy Weaver, the owner, Tom Gore's, like, who's actually in charge here? And then the the players they put around the young core, the lack of shooting did not put them in a position Right.

要成功。但我认为有一点值得指出，就像你说的，你说得对。选中状元秀本来就是你应该做好的事情，所以大家也不会特别给你加分。而且卡德·坎宁安非常棒。但值得一提的是，这个年轻核心基本上都是特洛伊·韦弗打造的。

To succeed. But it I think it is worth noting that, like, the young you're right. You don't get points for getting a number one pick right. Like, that's just kinda what you should do, and Cade Cunningham's awesome. But it is worth noting that he that trip that is a Troy Weaver core for the most part.

特雷詹·兰登做得也很棒，他补充并持续增强了球队阵容。不过，当时确实有很多议论，比如说

Trajan Langdon has done awesome to supplement it and to continue to grow it. But, yeah, there was just a lot of talk of like

直到今年夏天为止。

till this summer.

是的。嗯，这一点我们意见不同，但我认为底特律其实是退步了。我完全不同意你的看法。我不太明白。比如说，施罗德竟然签了一个非常离谱的合同去了国王队。

Yep. Well, I we're gonna disagree on that, but I I I thought Detroit went backwards. I disagree with you completely. I I don't understand. Well, like, so so on a on a basic level, Schroeder out to to the Kings on just a wild contract.

施罗德出局了，比斯利也出局了，可能这一阵子都得缺席，说不定比一阵子还要久。

Schroeder out, Beasley out, and maybe like out for a while, if not like for longer than a while.

比斯利真的是彻底出局了。

Beasley literally out.

彻底出局了。是的。哈达威在贾登·艾维这里也出局了，我觉得人们都忘了，艾维还回来要承担更多角色。

Out. Yeah. Hardaway out in Jaden Ivy, who I think people forget is, like, coming back to take more

不过总之。

anyway, though.

但他去年整年都受伤了。所以你才会在去年签下施罗德，因为球队当时有个空缺，就是这位球员受伤了。现在他回来了，勒韦尔也回来了，罗宾逊也回来了。我觉得他们整体更强了，而且我认为他们的年轻球员还会继续进步。我特别看好阿萨尔·汤普森，给他一个完整的赛季。

But he was hurt all last year. So that's why you got Schroeder last year is that they had this void on the team because this other guy was hurt. He's back, Levert in, Robinson in. I think they're just better, and I think they're better because their young guys are gonna continue to get better. And I specifically look at, like, Asar Thompson, give him a full season.

那里一定会有所突破。比如说，我觉得他有机会在一个赛季里提升两个档次。我觉得他们的替补阵容也更强了。我只是

Something is gonna is gonna pop there. Like, I think he's got a chance to level, like, two levels up in one season. Like, I I think their supported cast is better. I just

觉得他们更强了。但这些都是本来可能发生的事情。我不是利文斯顿的粉丝。我从来都不是利文斯顿的粉丝。我不想像你上周跟卡姆·托马斯那样被归类。

think they're better. That's but that's all stuff that could happen anyway. I'm not a Libert guy. I've never been a Libert guy. I don't wanna get aggregated like you did with Cam Thomas last week.

等不及要聊个好时机。我只是觉得克利夫兰就像在争夺总冠军。他们现在靠这些人赢球，然后他们就说，我们已经够好了。我觉得利文斯顿有点阻碍球的流动。我不太喜欢他在底特律的适配性。而且听着，比斯利出事不是他们的错，但比斯利上赛季对他们的作用真的非常关键。

Can't That wait to talk about good time. I'm just it's like Cleveland Cleveland's like trying to win a title. They're winning games with them, and they're like, we're good. I think he's a little ball stoppy. I don't like the fit with Detroit, and I think, listen, it's not their fault what happened with Beasley, but Beasley was really important to what they did last year.

我认为他是他们第二好的球员。最差的情况，也是仅次于杜兰特的第三好球员，但我就是觉得他对于球队真的很重要，尤其是在比赛最后阶段。现在你用凯里斯·勒韦尔来替代他，然后对艾维也只能寄希望了。

I thought he was their second best player. It may you know, worst case scenario, their third best player behind Durin, but I just thought he really mattered for them, especially at the end of games. And now you're replacing that with Carys Lavert, and you're keeping your fingers crossed with Ivy.

邓肯·罗宾逊表现不错。而且你知道，在季后赛中

And Duncan Duncan Robinson is is good. And, you know, look, in the Is playoffs

他怎么想的？比如说像迈阿密似乎有意向，但事情是这样的。你知道，我喜欢那些擅长投篮和跑动的球员，我认为有些球队会非常适合他。在过去五个月里，迈阿密似乎有13次对他时而有意时而放弃，我都搞不清楚了。

he though? Like like Miami seem but here's the thing. And, you know, I I enjoy those shooter ball movement guys, and I think there's certain teams who would have been really good for. Miami seemed like they were in or out on him 13 different times over the course of the last five months. I couldn't keep track.

他们给他付了很多钱。比如，马利克·比斯利去年表现非常出色，我们俩都将他排在最佳第六人的选票前列。我想你投了票吧，你投了

They paid him a lot of money. So, like, is is so Malik Beasley had a great year last year, high on our six man of the year ballots for both of us. I think you voted. You voted

是的，我投了。我觉得他配得上这个荣誉。

for Yeah. I did. I thought he deserved it.

他在季后赛场均得到14分，投篮命中率37%，三分命中率34%，几乎不造犯规，防守端完全是个漏洞。但

14 points a game in the playoffs, 37% from the field, 34% on threes, never gets to the line, complete defensive liability. Like But

他知道自己即将面临丑闻吗？这是我对此的一个疑问。我不认为这件事是毫无征兆地突然爆发的，感觉这件事已经酝酿了好几个月了。

does he know that the scandal's coming is one of my questions with that? Well I don't think that thing just came out of nowhere right after the like, feel like that was brewing for a couple months.

是的。在某个时候，这件事始终会悬在他头上。我只是说，邓肯·罗宾逊的合同，比如说，只有一年是部分保障的。我觉得他可以做出类似马利克·比斯利为球队做出的贡献。我认为，季后赛的表现显示，在常规赛期间他们过于依赖马利克·比斯利，而到了季后赛，比赛风格变了，进攻更好了，防守也会更具针对性。

Yeah. At some point, it it's hanging over his head. I'm just saying, like, is Duncan Robinson whose contract is, like, partially guaranteed Right. After the first year, Like, I think he can do a different version of what Malik Beasley did for their team. I think if anything, the playoffs showed in the regular season, I think they were over reliant on Malik Beasley and the playoffs, the game changes, the offense gets better, it gets more predatory against it.

现在邓肯·罗宾逊也会像马利克一样被对手重点针对。我认为底特律明年会变得更好。他们赢了多少场比赛？我不清楚。

Now Duncan Robinson is gonna get hunted just like Malik. I I think I'm on, like, Detroit's better next year. I how many games did they win? I don't know.

他们大概赢了四十四场左右。

They were in the mid mid forties and

中段到高位，大概48场吧。

Mid to high five. Think 48.

我觉得我不知道

I think I don't know

这个赛季的胜场数会是多少。我认为他们明年会成为一支更强的球队。

what the win total will be. I think they're gonna be a better team next year.

我喜欢他们在赛季后半段以及季后赛中所展现出来的球队风格，尤其是那种依靠强硬老将的气质。对吧？球队围绕着凯德（Kade）打造，强调篮板和强硬的态度。我也不知道，我们得看看吧。他们有没有

I like the identity they had in the second half of the season in the playoffs with the with those tough veterans. Right? Built around Kade and rebounding and a real attitude. And I don't know, we're we'll we'll see, I guess. Did they

失去这些特质？他们在篮板和防守上的强硬有没有减弱？

lose any of that? What toughness in rebounding and defense did they lose?

我觉得比斯利（Beasley）对他们来说是个狠角色。我真的这么觉得。他有一种真正的自信和态度，而且他们在关键时刻总是依赖他。而凯德（Kade）显然会从卡德（Cade）身上获得最大的帮助。他们去年最大的变化就是让卡德重新焕发了生机，把他变成了一个A级资产。我之前只是好奇你有没有过动摇，比如

I thought Beasley was kind of a badass for them. I really did. I thought he had a real swagger and attitude, and I and he was the guy they went to over and over again late, and I thought Kade Cade, it's obviously gonna come from Cade over anyone else. The big thing for them last year is that they rejuvenated Cade as, you know, an A list asset, which I just was were you ever, like, wavering I on

我从来没有对他失去信心。我只是

was never off kick on him. I just

那不是罗西洛（Rocillo）的问题。我只是我曾经是

It was couldn't Rocillo. I was I was a

我有点难以相信，而且我经常说，人们怎么这么快就对他的评价变得这么负面了。比如，你知道的，他不怎么上罚球线，他不怎么冲击篮筐，在篮下终结效率也不高。好像他已经注定不行了。这让我想起了以前关于安德鲁·维金斯（Andrew Wiggins）新秀赛季的讨论，后来证明那些讨论其实挺有道理的。

I little could not believe, and I said this often, how quickly people went on the, well, you know, he's doesn't get to the line. He doesn't get to the rim. He doesn't finish well at the rim. Like, he's gonna be. It reminded me of the dialogue, which turned out to be kinda right on, like I remember Andrew Wiggins' rookie year.

我记得当时五月（May）写了一篇文章，说从统计数据来看，他可能是史上最糟糕的状元秀之一，而且这对他未来的发展并不乐观。我当时觉得，哇，这似乎有点太早下结论了。但后来发现，他确实不是一个出色的状元秀。我感觉关于凯德（K）的讨论也开始朝这个方向发展了。

I think it was May ran a piece about, like, statistically, he's one of the worst number one picks of all time as a rookie, and, like, this doesn't project well for him. And I was like, wow. It seems like kinda premature. And it turned out like he is not a great number one pick. It felt like the K dialogue was starting to trend that way.

我当时就想，我只是喜欢看他打球，他确实有某种特质。他具备那种中距离的得分能力、视野和身体素质，这些都是你需要的。只要身边配上一些真正强硬的球员就行。不过我们已经偏离了关于底特律和特洛伊·韦弗（Troy Weaver）的话题了。我可以

And I was like, I just I like, I watched this guy play, and he's got something. He's got the sort of in between game and the vision and the strength that you need and, like, put some real guys around him. But we're getting off topic with Detroit and Troy Weaver. Can I

从来没有对他失去信心？我确实担心过，但我总是会从另一个角度来看待这种情况，这种情况在橄榄球中也经常出现。如果环境很糟糕，随着年龄增长，我逐渐明白，当一个人表现不好时，最重要的是要考虑环境因素。在这种情况下，即使他有天赋，你也几乎必须优先考虑环境而不是天赋。总之，我们已经跑题了。

never gave up on him? I got worried, but I always look at those situations where you think and with this happens in football too. It's the situation, if the situation is awful, as I've gotten older, I've learned, like, you have to trust that that's the most important factor if somebody's not looking good. You almost have to value the situation over the talent if the talent is there. Anyway, we got off topic.

新奥尔良。

New Orleans.

奥尔良，然后就是那种，几乎整个联盟范围内的集体失落感，关于国王队这两年发生了什么，他们怎么就从NBA最励志的故事变成了现在这个样子，甚至没人真的愿意去谈论他们。他们变得平庸、乏味，而且毫无方向，那种状态连其他球队都感叹，天啊，那边的情况真的有点令人沮丧。你知道我的意思吗？就是说，这真的有点

Orleans and then just the amount of, like, collective league wide almost sorrow about what has happened to the Kings in two years, like how they went from the feel good story of the NBA to like, nobody even really wants to talk about them. They're they're like mediocre and boring and directionless in a way that other teams even are like, man, it's just it's kinda depressing over there. You know? It's just I

我不知道。挺搞笑的，他们刚刚才重新成为国王队。是啊。我的意思是，他们已经不再是国王了，感觉就像，天哪。

don't know. It's funny. They just became the kings again. Yeah. I mean, weren't the kings anymore, and it felt like, oh my god.

国王队已经不再是国王了。他们现在真的像是一支真正的篮球队。

The kings aren't the kings anymore. They're actually like a real basketball team.

然后

And then

但他们在这18个月内就衰败了。

they died within eighteen months.

然后就是‘维克’这个名字，在很多晚餐和喝酒的时候被反复提起，感觉上公司内部仍然有点混乱，经常有人说一些类似‘他总是自己给自己制造麻烦’、‘他就是管不住自己’这样的话。你知道吗？像‘他总是自己给自己制造麻烦’这样的说法经常出现。因为在比姆团队之前、之后，以及马卢夫时代之后所有糟糕的球队背后，有一个不变的因素，就是球队的拥有者。

And just like the word Vivek was said over many dinners and drinks, like it that it just it's still kind of a mess internally, and it just that that, you know, phrases like he can't get out of his own way, he can't help himself, you know, that's that kind of phraseology came up a lot. Because what's been the constant between the Beam team and now, and all the crappy teams before the Beam team post Malouf? It's the ownership group.

当那次哈里伯顿交易发生的时候，我不记得具体时间了。你当时是不是非常震惊，还是说你觉得有点理解？这件事发生的时候你站在哪一边？

When that Halliburton trade happened, I can't remember. Were you apoplectic, or you're like, I can kinda see it. Where did you land when it happened?

我当时很惊讶。我不会做这笔交易。我记得当时和JJ·雷迪克一起上电视的时候，他称这是一次‘球队管理失误’，甚至用了比这更严厉的词。我当时觉得，考虑到萨博尼斯确实有帮助球队获胜的实际战绩，并且是一名非常出色的球员，这种说法似乎有点过头了。我记得甚至一年后我还说过，‘哦，什么情况？’

I was surprised. I wouldn't have done it. I remember being on TV with JJ Reddick when he called it, it was like franchise mismanagement or something even more stringent than that. And I was like, that feels a little harsh given that Sybonis has a real track record of helping teams win and is a very good player. So I was and I remember I remember even saying, like, a year later, and it was it was like, oh, what?

这本来是一笔双赢的交易，对两支球队来说都是双赢的。但结果并不是这样。印第安纳在这笔交易中赢了。没错。

This was a win win trade for both teams. This is a win win trade. Was like, it's not. Like, Indiana won the trade. Yeah.

就像，国王队并没有像一些人以为的那样输得很惨，现在的情况是，这里到底发生了什么？我是说，我们是怎么走到这一步的？

Like, the Kings just didn't lose it as badly as some people thought they were gonna lose it, and now it's like, what what happened here? I like, how did we get here?

我知道，我讨厌这个结果。这是我为数不多全力投入的一次。我当时就想，我要用钢笔写下这个决定。我讨厌这个决定。

I know. I hated it. I it was one of the few times I went all in. I'm like, I'm I'm putting this in pen. I hate this.

我不会交易哈里伯顿。我一直觉得，如果你要做出交易，福克斯才是那个应该交易的人选。马刺的这笔交易，我们在夏季联赛之前就稍微聊过一些。不过你知道，他们可能这一年有福克斯在，可以让迪伦·哈珀作为替补培养。我看过他的一场夏季联赛比赛。我的意思是，他的投篮确实不行，但他是个非常疯狂的运动员，很明显他未来会成为一个不错的球员。

I would not trade Halliburton. I always thought Fox was the one, if you're gonna make a move, that would have been the one I did. The Spurs thing, you know, we talked about it a little before the before summer league, but, you know, they probably have a year here with Fox where you can bring Dylan Harper off the bench. I watched I watched one of his summer league games. I mean, he can't shoot, but he's just such a crazy athlete, and he's just clearly gonna be a guy.

我不知道这需要三年还是四年，还要多久，但总有一天这支球队会是他的。你能看出来，他是那种一直掌控球权的人。他不会像哈里伯顿那样拥有那种罕见的能力，可以在没有球权的情况下发挥作用。我不认为迪伦·哈珀会是那种类型的球员。所以他们可能这一年有福克斯在，可以让哈珀作为替补慢慢适应，就像我们想让他逐步进入状态。也许会有一场比赛，或者福克斯受伤一周。

I don't know if it's gonna be year three, year four, like how long it's gonna take, but there's gonna be a point where it's his team, and you could just see, like, he's one of those guys who's had the ball his whole life. He's not gonna be, oh, like Halliburton had that rare ability to just be able to play off people and not have the ball at the time. I don't think Dylan Harper's going to be like that. So they probably have a year here with Fox where they can bring Harper off the bench and be like, we're going to ease you in. Maybe there'll be a game or Fox is hurt for a week.

你就可以成为那一周的核心球员。但奇怪的是，福克斯还没有签下那份大合同。

You become the guy for a week. But the the the weird part of it, is Fox doesn't have the massive extension yet.

对吧？我记得是8月2日他就具备签约资格了。我相信到时候应该会达成协议的。

Right? August 2, he becomes eligible to sign it, I believe. And I do expect something will be done

因为他们之前已经暗示过，对吧？但他们在交易的时候，大家心里其实都明白他们会处理好这件事的。

Because they they did the wink wink. Right? But when they did the trade, it was kind of understood that they would take care of them.

嗯，他特别强调过，其实并没有所谓的名单。圣安东尼奥就是那个唯一的选项。他说，我只想去圣安东尼奥。那是我交易请求名单上唯一的球队。不管是不是暗示过，我的意思是，你不会在没有一定了解的情况下做这样的交易，尤其是在你即将面临续约的时候。

Well, I mean, he he went out of his way to say there was only one there was no list. San Antonio was the list. I wanted to be in San Antonio. That was the team on my trade demand list, and I whether it was wink wink or not, I mean, you don't do trades like that without some understanding of what it's gonna be when you when you hit extension time.

嗯，你的那位经纪人里奇·保罗最近也谈到了这个。他最近提到过，他还在吹嘘关于布兰登·英格拉姆的续约合同。他说，我们觉得自由市场的钱根本拿不到，所以我们必须把他交易出去，才能让他赚到钱。而且事实证明他是对的，因为

Well, your guy, Rich Paul, talked about that recently. He talked about, he was bragging about the Brandon Ingram extension, and he was like, We felt like the free agency money wasn't gonna be there, we had to get him traded so he could make the money. And by the way, he was right, because

完全正确。

Completely right.

如果作为自由球员，布兰登·英格拉姆本来是完全没有机会每年赚到4000万美元的。所以，是的，关于福克斯的那部分，我相信他们肯定会达成提前续约协议，我确定这事会发生。不过，你觉得两年后他还会在这支球队吗？因为我不这么认为。

Who had zero chance of making 40,000,000 a year if he was a free agent, Brandon Ingram. So, yeah, with the Fox piece, I'm sure they have the wink wake extension. I'm sure it's gonna happen. But I also, do you think he's gonna be on that team in two years? Because I don't.

两年半？还是三年？到时候会有一个时刻，他们会直接把球队交给哈珀，事情也就这样了，因为我认为他有机会成为那种特别的球员。

Two and a half years? Like, three years? There's gonna be a moment where they just give the car case to to Harper, and that's gonna be that, because I think he has a chance to be that special.

我并不急于做出这类决定。福克斯和文班亚马去年一起打了五场比赛。我想……

I'm not in a rush to make these kinds of decisions. Fox and Wemby played five games together last year. I I think

你想看到那样的结果。

You wanna see it.

不只是那样，我其实是比大多数人更看好2025、2026年的马刺队。我认为他们有很大的机会实现巨大的飞跃。我知道他们有一些不错的外线投射能力。

Well, not only that, like, I'm I'm, like, higher on the 2025, 20 '6 Spurs than most people are. I think there's a chance for a big, big leap from them. I know they have some Can shooting

我可以加入你那个‘孤岛’吗？

I I join you on that island?

这并不是一个孤岛。任何人都欢迎加入，不过，我也不知道他们的胜率、盘口或者其他任何数据。我没去查过，是的，那个……

It's not an island. Like, anyone's welcome, but like, I I don't know what their odds are over under or any of that. Haven't looked at Yeah. That

也许那是一个群岛，是的。

It's maybe an archipelago. Yeah.

对，就是这样。我认为他们有机会实现飞跃，原因很简单：这些球员几乎没有一起打过比赛，其中一人甚至有潜力成为职业生涯某个阶段NBA最好的球员。而且我喜欢他们的一些操作，我喜欢他们做了很多不错的引援。至于新秀们究竟能在多大程度上提供帮助，我们拭目以待。但我感觉那里正在酝酿一些东西。我并不急于做出‘我们现在就能赢，用福克斯争冠，等年轻人准备好了，再把福克斯交易来适配文班亚马的时间线’这样的选择。

Yeah. There you go. I think there's a chance for a much for the very simple reason of those guys barely played together, one of them has the potential to be the best player in the NBA at some point in his career. And I like some of the I like a lot of the moves they made, and, you know, we'll we'll see how much the rookies can actually help. But I I something is cooking there, and I'm not in a hurry to like I understand the theory of we can win now with Fox, and then when the young guys are ready, we can flip Fox for stuff that fits Wenbanyama's timeline more.

福克斯又不老。我并不急于做出任何这些选择。

Like, it's not like Fox is old. Like, I'm not in a hurry to make any of these choices.

嗯，我觉得是埃迪·约翰逊在我的播客里提到的这件事，他说萨博尼斯和福克斯都是左撇子，在空接配合方面显得有点奇怪。然后他说，你看看当福克斯和文班亚马搭档时会发生什么，因为福克斯喜欢往左走，而他身边这位是右手球员，那些高位掩护的配合肯定会不一样。我当时就想，好吧，这个观点我稍微有点认同，我对马刺队有点信心。我已经看过他们的胜负盘了。

Well, I think it was Eddie Johnson who said this on my podcast about how Sabonis and Fox with the lob stuff where they're both lefties was just weird. And he's like, Watch what happens when Fox is with Wemby because he's gonna go left, and he's thrown into a guy who's right handed. It's gonna be different on those high screens. I was like, alright, that sounds I'm mildly with you on the Spurs. I've already looked at their over under.

你想猜一下是多少吗？因为我在文班亚马说‘我没事，我很好，我赛季开始前就能准备好’之后就看了这个数据。

You wanna guess what it is? Because I looked at it after Wemby said, I'm clear. I'm fine. I'm healthy. I'll be ready for the season.

你认为他们赛季的胜场总数是多少？

What do you think their win total is?

41胜半场。

41 and a half.

43胜半场。

43 and a half.

我押的是超过43胜半场，我甚至都不用思考，就直接押超了。我知道这是西部……

I'm a go I'm I'm over. I'm not even I'm not even thinking it. Going over 43 and a half. I know it's the I

我知道他们还很年轻，他们还很稚嫩。

know they're wet. They're young.

这是西部，除了爵士队之外，其他球队都很强。啰嗦完了，我还是押超过43胜半场。

It's the West. Everybody's good except Utah. Blah blah. I'm going over 43 and a half.

我也是这么想的。我觉得他们可能是今年的奥兰多魔术队，或者说是今年的底特律活塞队，就是那种突然之间胜场数冲到四十八、九场的球队，因为他们拥有一群年轻球员，随时都能派出不同的球员上场。而且我其实还挺喜欢凯利·奥利尼克的，哪怕他只是你的第十人。如果你的阵容里有这种类型的凯利·奥利尼克或者卢克·科内特，我会更愿意选择他们，而不是扎克·科林斯。

Me as well. And I think that that's probably this year's Orlando if you're gonna make a or or this year's Detroit. Like, the team that just kinda jumps into the high forties because they have a bunch of young guys, and they always can throw dudes out. They also I kinda like Kelly Olinic if he's your tenth man. You have this weird Kelly Olinic, Luke Kornet you're relying on, like, that's I'd rather have that than Zach Collins.

哦，科内特确实不错，就是那种明摆着的好球员。奥利尼克呢，从每支球队对他的态度来看，从爵士到猛龙，再到现在的圣安东尼奥，我每次看到他都有同样的感觉：我喜欢让一个能投篮、能传球的大个子出现在年轻后卫和侧翼球员身边，我总觉得这样的球员能帮助整支球队成长。但问题是，他就是得不到太多上场时间，所以这就变成了一种很奇怪的情况。

Oh, there's Kornet's good. I mean, just flat out good. Olenek has been one of these, like, every team that gets him from Utah to Toronto to now San Antonio, I have the same reaction, which is like, I love having a shooting passing big guy around young guards and young wings. I just feel like it helps everybody. And then he just never plays, and so it's just this sort of like

从理论上讲，我喜欢他和文班亚马配合的这个想法。

theoretically I like the helpful idea with him and Wemby.

我也喜欢。我喜欢凯利·奥利尼克的想法。不过这只是一个想法，直到它不再成为现实。

I do too. I like the idea of Kelly Olynyk. It's just an idea until it becomes not a reality.

我喜爱他们的一点是，他们是一台出色的交易机器球队。他们拥有各种不同类型

One of the things I love about them, incredible trade machine team. They have all different types of

他们有很多资源。

Tons of stuff.

可交易的合同，你把他们和其他球队比较一下，他们还拥有一堆不错的选秀权。你知道，这类球队到了12月、1月、2月的时候，如果他们开局打得不错，比如20胜12负，而且文班亚马看起来像是MVP的候选人，那么这支球队很快就能变得非常有竞争力。我们先休息一下，之后我们还有其他话题要讨论。好的，我们接下来会聊一些夏季联赛的事情。我认为最值得关注的篮球话题之一就是快船队的所有动作。

Tradeable contracts, you compare them together, they have a bunch of cool picks, and you know, that's one of those, when we get to December, January, February, that's one of those teams. If they're good, they start out like twenty and twelve, and Wemby looks like he's an MVP candidate, that's a team that could shift pretty quickly. Let's take a break, and then we have some other stuff to hit. All right, so we have more tales from summer league stuff. The biggest thing that I think became a basketball argument was everything the Clippers did.

让我们先讨论这个，之后我们再聊一些夏季联赛的内容。我对这些动作的兴奋程度不如其他人，但我也承认，他们所做的一切都很划算，风险很低，他们在各个位置都有操作空间，他们只是增加了一些可以轻松交换、交易或打包的合同，以防出现任何意外情况。很多人都在开玩笑说这支球队年龄太大了，说他们组成了一个2017年全明星赛的阵容。这种操作有无数种可能，我先从这里说起。全明星赛后，我们的净效率排名第四。

And Let's it's, let's do that, and then we can hit some summer league stuff later. I was less excited about it than others, while also admitting that everything they did was just cost effective, low risk, you have moves everywhere, you're just adding contracts that you could easily swap out or trade or package together if anything weird happens. Everybody's made jokes about how old this team is, how they put together the twenty seventeen All Star game. There's a million ways this could go, I'll start here. Post All Star, were fourth in net rating.

我认为他们本应在五场或六场比赛中击败丹佛掘金队，但最终没能做到，主要是因为第一场和第四场发生的情况，尤其是后者。我认为我不确定他们是否真的比丹佛更强，但他们完全有可能赢得那个系列赛，只是结果没有朝着他们的方向发展，有几次关键的攻防回合影响了比赛。但他们确实和那支最终与雷霆打到抢七的球队非常接近。

I think they should have beaten Denver in five or six, and they didn't because of what happened in game one and what happened in game four, especially, but I think they were I don't know if they were better than Denver, but they easily could have taken that series, and it didn't go their way, and a couple plays happened. But they were right there with the team that then went seven against OKC.

可以

Can

你可以认为他们去年是联盟四支最强球队之一吗？

I You could make a case they were one of the four best teams in the league last year?

最讽刺的事情莫过于给他们颁发一个奖杯，奖励他们差点击败了那支差点击败俄克拉荷马城的球队。这就是

That's the most clippery thing ever is to give them is to give them a trophy for almost beating the team that almost beat Oklahoma City. It's the

横幅马上就要挂出来了。我们差点击败了差点击败雷霆的那支球队。他们要把那场比赛的横幅挂在球馆里。

banner that's going up. We almost beat the team that almost beat OKC. They're putting that up in the arena.

对，是的，他们搞砸了。第四场比赛，亚伦·戈登，你当时在场。看起来一切都还好。丹佛掘金又赢了一场。

One, yeah, they blew it. Game four, Aaron Gordon, you were there. Like, all cool. Denver Denver won another game,

然后他们就成了冠军。

They and then they had were the champs.

接着他们有一场比赛就能赢下整个系列赛，但他们表现糟糕透顶，简直给整个赛季都蒙上了阴影。抱歉，我这么说有点重。

Then they but then they had a game to win the whole series in Denver, and they shit the bed so badly that it's just like it's a black mark on the entire season. I'm sorry.

这正是我想说的更宏观的观点。我们可以谈论，是的，他们更强了。阵容更深厚了。但他们的球队仍然是围绕詹姆斯·哈登打造的。我不知道你是不是快船的球迷，你是不是为快船工作，是不是执教快船，是不是快船的总经理，或者是不是快船的老板。

And that's my my bigger picture point. We could talk about, oh, yeah, they're better. They're deeper. There's still a team that's built around James Harden. And I don't know if you're a Clipper fan, if you work for the Clippers, if you coach the Clippers, if you're the GM of Clippers, if you own the Clippers.

我真不知道在第七场比赛发生的事情以及他整个职业生涯的表现之后，你怎么还能安心入睡并对这一切感到满意。我甚至特意回去看了比赛，因为我当时觉得，那场比赛真的太糟糕了。也许时间过去这么久，我记错了什么，也许没那么糟。但事实是，真的就是那么糟糕。他的表现真的很差。

I don't know how you fall asleep at night feeling great about that after what happened in game seven and what's happened over the course of his entire career. I actually went back and watched, because I was like, I I feel like that was so bad. I need to maybe I'm maybe enough time has passed that I'm misremembering something, and maybe it wasn't that bad. It was that bad. He was so bad.

他当时做着那种完全不看篮筐的动作。知道

He was doing the thing where he doesn't look at the rim at all. Knew

立刻 这个可以被记录下来。

immediately This could be recorded.

我知道。它可以是每一个 不同的五个赛季。是的。等我死了以后，他们大概会用CGI技术重制吧。他当时表现太差了，我都不知道你怎么还能看到这样的报道，说什么他曾经花了半小时招募布拉德利·比尔。

I know. It could be every It's five different seasons. Yeah. When I'm dead, they'll just CGI it. He was so bad that I don't know how you're reading these stories about, oh yeah, he was recruiting Bradley Beal for a half hour.

这就像在说什么？招募的说辞是什么？嘿，我们去年有过很棒的机会。你能帮我个忙，别看第七场吗？你看看第五场就行。嘿，布拉德利·比尔就会说，嘿。

It's like, what was the recruiting pitch? Hey, we had a really good thing last year. Could you do me a favor and not watch game seven? Can you watch, like, game five? Hey and Bradley Beal's like, hey.

第七场比赛发生了什么？这就像，我不知道。丹佛队就是抓住了这一点，这是一支以詹姆斯·哈登为核心的球队，从根本上来说，你不可能靠詹姆斯·哈登赢下四轮季后赛。他现在多大了？36岁，整个职业生涯每年他都向我们展示了他是怎样的球员，我就是无法对此感到兴奋。

What happened in game seven? It's like, I don't know. Denver just caught like, this is a team built around James Harden, and fundamentally, you cannot win four playoff rounds with James Harden. How old is he now? 36, and he's shown us who he is year after year for his entire career, and I just, I can't get excited about it.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

不过，这支球队也围绕着科怀·伦纳德打造，而对于一名在整个快船生涯中都与伤病抗争的球员来说，打四轮季后赛确实要求很高，而且他在上赛季最后的50场比赛中表现非常出色。

Well, it's also built around Kawhi Leonard, and four playoff rounds is a lot for a player who has battled injuries for his entire Clippers tenure, and he had a great last last second half, whatever, 50 games of last season.

当你说与伤病抗争时，你的意思是他在六年里打了266场比赛，而上赛季只打了37场吗？这就是所谓的抗争吗？

When you say battled injuries, do you mean he played 266 games in six years and thirty seven last year? Is is that bat is that battling or is

还是说这更像是溺水？他和伤病之间的较量是势均力敌的，难分高下。听着，让我来说几个支持快船的理由。

that drowning? He's it's it's a toe to toe battle between Kawhi and and the injuries. It's it's it's it's neck and neck. Look. I'll just let let me just make a couple of cases for the Clippers.

好吧？首先，我认为快船队内部没有人对目前自己的定位有什么幻想。我觉得他们可能认为自己是一支非常、非常强大的球队，最多能在西部排在第四位。如果假设所有人都健康，那就看俄克拉荷马城、丹佛、休斯顿，然后可能是快船，应该是快船，随便你怎么说。

Okay? Number one, I don't think anyone with the Clippers has any, like, illusions about what they are right now. Like, I think they I think they probably think we are a really, really good team that slots in fourth in the West at best. And if talking about everyone's healthy, let's go. It's Oklahoma City, Denver, Houston, and then maybe the Clippers, probably the Clippers, whatever word you want to use.

但我认为在常规赛中，你可以认为他们的阵容深度能排进前三，尽管这些球员可能不太可靠，但他们仍然有这么多球员，他们可能拥有足够的深度来变得强大。

But I think for a regular season, I think you can make a case they could slot in in the top three of the depth and the fact that even though these guys aren't going to play reliably, they still have so many guys, they might have the depth to be good.

我是在说，比如，你曾断言快船是西部在过去40场比赛中第二好的球队。那是你的判断，对吧？是的。而你

And I'm talking to, like, you were the president of the Clippers are the second best team in the West Island for the last 40 games of last year. That was your call. Yeah. And you

知道发生了什么吗？知道发生了什么吗？飓风，飓风狠狠地袭击了那个岛。我有一个半月没有电。

know what happened? Know know what happened? Hurricane. Hurricane hard and hit the island. And I had no electricity for a month and a half.

他们轮换阵容中的球员，甚至半轮换的球员都出现了问题。

Out go here the rotation players that they even semi rotation players that are

和去年相比已经走了。好吧。不知道。你先说。我能

gone from last year. Okay. Don't know. Go ahead. Can I

就这样做吗？

just Do it?

我支持你。

I'm with you.

去吧，做你想做的。本·西蒙斯。还

Go. Do your thing. Ben Simmons. Not

甚至还没签约呢。

even signed yet.

你对本·西蒙斯在快船期间印象最深的是什么？有没有哪一刻让大家说服自己相信

What was your favorite moment of Ben Simmons' Clippers tenure? What the one day where everybody talked themselves into thinking that

也许这就是 Teleki（比喻球员突破篮下），比如，有一次他冲向篮筐。

they maybe this is the Teleki, like, went to the rim one time.

我印象最深的是，我和 Mike Tonlin 在现场看比赛，我们当时开玩笑说，当他跨过中场那个大圆圈标志时，那就像一道电子围栏，他必须在到达三分线之前把球传出去。我给他起了个外号叫‘新标志’，因为一旦踩到那个标志，他就必须传球，不管是谁处于空位。他就是不想在离篮筐25英尺（约7.6米）以内的地方持球。我想这可能也是他到现在还没签约的原因之一。

My favorite was I was at the game with Mike Tonlin, and we were joking about how when he crossed the the big circle logo at mid court, it became like an electric fence for him where he had to get rid of the ball before he got to the three point line, and I nicknamed him the new logo, because the logo triggered. It didn't matter who it was or whether the person was open, he had to pass it. He did not wanna have the ball within 25 feet of the basket. And I think it might be one of the reasons he's not signed yet.

是的。离开的有本·西蒙斯、诺曼·鲍威尔、阿米尔·科菲、德鲁·尤班克斯、乔丹·米勒。加入的有布鲁克·洛佩斯、布拉德利·比尔、约翰·科林斯、克里斯·保罗。毫无疑问，他们比去年的阵容更强了。现在有11个真正能打的球员。

Yeah. Out goes Ben Simmons, Norm Powell, Amir Coffey, Drew Eubanks, Jordan Miller. In comes Brook Lopez, Bradley Beal, John Collins, Chris Paul. They're undeniably, like, better than the team that was last year. They have 11 guys who could really play.

他们整个常规赛都需要这11个人。我认为球队的想法是这样的：听着，我们知道我们前两位核心球员的问题。哈登打大比赛的能力，伦纳德的出勤率等等。我们也清楚其他那三支球队有多强。

They're gonna need all 11 to get through the regular season. And I think the idea of the team is like, look. We know the issues with our top two guys. Harden's playing big games, Kawhi's availability, etcetera. We know how good those other three teams are.

以我们目前的资源和已经承诺给这两位老将的资金，我们所能做的就是尽可能地让自己处于一个有利的位置，以便在对阵形势合适、或者有球队前三号人物受伤之类的各种情况下迅速抓住机会，blah blah blah blah blah，然后我们或许又能打进分区决赛。一旦他们到了那个位置，也就只能做到这么多了。我不认为他们会带着一种‘哇，我们这个赛季太成功了，我们是夺冠最大热门’的心态进入新赛季。我认为他们很清楚自己的定位。

All we can do with the resources that we have and the money we've committed to these two older veterans at the center of our team is put ourselves in the best position possible to pounce if the matchups break right, if a team takes an injury that's in the top three, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then maybe we're in the conference finals again. Once they're there, that's all they can do. I don't think they're going into the season like, oh, yeah, we hit it out of the park. We're a championship favorite. I think they know exactly what they are.

在FanDuel上的大小分是49.5。

Over under on FanDuel is 49 and a half.

没错，说实话，这个数字看起来差不多。

That's right. That seems about right, honestly.

纸面上看，我并不反对他们做的任何一笔交易，除了一个，我们稍后再说。关于柯林斯这笔交易，我觉得他们本来不打算给诺姆·鲍威尔续约，而鲍威尔可能会因此变得非常不满，他们担心更衣室氛围和球员幸福感问题。对吧？所以他们用鲍威尔换来了柯林斯，而柯林斯自1995年以来就没在强队待过。

I'm not against any of the moves on paper except one, which we'll get to in a second. The Collins one, I just think they had they weren't gonna give Norm Powell an extension, and I think he was gonna get really sour, and I think they were worried about chemistry and happiness with that. Right? So you flip him into Collins, who hasn't been on a good team since 1995.

得了吧。

Oh, stop.

不，我只是说，柯林斯现在正处在合同年，他自从当年那支老鹰队打出成绩之后，这是他第一次加入一支强队。有趣的是，他现在成了一个颇具争议的球员，因为一些数据党非常支持他。

No, I'm just saying, like, he's in a contract year, and he's on his first good team since that one Hawks team that made a run. It's funny, he's become a weirdly polarizing player because there's some really good nerd arguments for him.

你和我在约翰·柯林斯这个问题上看法完全不同。

You and I you and I very much disagree on John Collins.

那么，所以那个高光时刻——

Well, so the highlight

你跑题了。

You're is out.

没有跑题，只是他职业生涯的高光时刻就是那次对阵76人的系列赛。他在那轮系列赛表现很好，我当时觉得他正在成为一个真正的季后赛球员。然后如果我没记错的话，他们接下来对阵的是热火队，而他在那里的表现简直糟糕透顶。

Not out. Just the highlight of his career was that Philly series. He was good in that Philly series. I thought he felt like he was becoming a real playoff guy. And then if my memory serves me correct, they then played Miami, and he was abysmal.

想想看，他们已经有了祖巴茨和伦纳德，现在有人认为伦纳德在这个阶段已经是四号位了。你也可以让他打三号位，但我还是觉得他更适合四号位。然后你又把柯林斯放到祖巴茨和伦纳德身边，这在2025年的篮球比赛中对我来说是说不通的。不过，考虑到他们面对的是鲍威尔，而鲍威尔那边有很多后卫，他们可能担心鲍威尔不开心，从这个角度看这笔交易是有意义的。

And just think with what they have with Zubots and Kawhi, who think Kawhi is a four at this point in his career. You could play him at the three, but I just think he's a four. And you're putting Collins with Zubots and Kawhi, that doesn't make sense to me in the way basketball is played in 2025. But I do think for the versus Powell, who I think they had a lot of guards, they were worried about him being unhappy. The trade makes sense.

这是一份到期合同，他们可以把它转手。我是支持这笔交易的。我不支持的是约翰·柯林斯成为一支连续四年打进季后赛的球队的重要组成部分。我对于比尔的看法还没有改变。我仍在等待答案。

It's an expiring, they can flip it. Like, I'm down with the trade. I'm not down with John Collins being a huge part of a team that wins fourth straight playoff France. Where I get off the bus is with Biel. I still am waiting.

整个夏天我都在等，等着有人能解释清楚他在菲尼克斯到底发生了什么。因为就连我的朋友埃迪·约翰逊，我发了一条推文，我们在推特上反复讨论过，但每次我们这样，就有人把我们的对话整理出来，好像我们彼此生气一样，其实埃迪是我的朋友。埃迪说：“不，不，他在这里表现不错。大家都喜欢他，他也像个好儿子一样，只是最终没成。”

I've been waiting all summer. I'm waiting for somebody to explain what actually happened with him in Phoenix. Because even my friend Eddie Johnson, I tweeted something, we went back and forth on Twitter, and every time we do that, then somebody will aggregate it like we're mad at each other, like Eddie's my friend. But Eddie's like, No, no, he was good here. Everybody liked him here, and he was a good son, it just didn't work out.

这让我很困惑，这是什么意思？因为我亲眼见过那支太阳队，整支球队看起来都很痛苦，包括布拉德利·比尔在内。他在那里的整个期间，没人对他打球的方式感到满意。问题的一部分似乎在于，他不喜欢做一个没有球权的配角。现在他要去快船队做配角，我不明白为什么人们觉得他在快船会是一个很棒的处境。

It's like, what does that mean? Because I saw the sons in person, and the entire team looked miserable, including Bradley Beal. Nobody was happy with how he played the entire time he was there. Part of the issue seemed to be that he didn't like being a role player who didn't have the ball all the time. Now he's going be a role player in the Clippers, and I just don't understand why people think this is gonna be an awesome situation with him in the Clippers.

我不明白。所以请解释一下，为什么他在快船队会比之前更开心呢？

I don't get it. So explain it to me. Why is he gonna be happier in Well, Clippers than he was with

他们用很低的成本就得到了他，对吧？这相当于5000万美元和500万美元之间的区别，这差别可真不小。而且他场均能拿17分，三分命中率也不错，还能作为次要的控球者。

got him for cheap. Right? So it's a difference between $50,000,000 and $5,000,000. That that's kind of a big deal. And he did average, like, 17 a game and shot it well and can be a secondary ball handler.

我认为如果你要求他在一支球队里扮演某个角色，而不是成为三巨头之一，也许他可以从替补席上站出来，但目前他们谈论的语气好像是要让他首发。我不确定这真的合适。

And and I think if you're asking him to do that on a team where he's whatever in the hierarchy and not part of a big three and he maybe he comes off the bench, they're they're talking like he's gonna start. I'm not convinced that that's

他们的语气好像是要依赖他，要让他掌握很多球权。

They're talking like they're gonna rely on him, he's gonna have the ball a lot.

我不会太依赖他来掌控球权。我的意思是，我会在某种意义上依赖他。比如哈登和祖巴茨打挡拆，吸引防守注意力后传给布拉德利·比尔，或者他可以突破防守，再接一个来自祖巴茨的二次掩护，在防守已经移动的时候制造机会，这听起来不错。但我不觉得我们会到那种地步，说：“好吧，把球给布拉德利·比尔，其他人闪开。”

I would not rely on him to have the ball too. I mean, I would rely on him to have the ball in this sense. Harden, Zubotz, pick and roll, bend the defense, kick to Bradley Beal, attack a closeout, or take a second screen from Zubotz, and when the when the defense is already moving, and that's that's cool. Like, I don't I don't know that there's any idea that we're like, alright. Give the ball to Brad Beal and get out of the way.

我不认为这会成为快船队进攻的一部分，除非有人受伤或者替补阵容全部上场。我在想，对他们来说机会成本是什么？从NBA的角度来看，他们几乎是零成本得到了他。他仍然能场均拿17分，三分命中率保持在40%，还能控球。而且说实话，我觉得你对菲尼克斯的看法是对的。

I don't think that's gonna be part of the part of the offense for the Clippers unless people are injured or there's just a whole bench mob in the game. I was like, what what's the what's the opportunity cost for them? They got him for essentially nothing in NBA terms. He's still a 17 a game score, still shot 40% on threes, still can handle the ball. And look, I think you're right about Phoenix.

整个球队都弥漫着一种低迷的气氛。我认为他的努力程度不够好，远远不够好，很明显，在一支球队中，这种表现是不行的。

There was just a malaise over the whole team. I think his effort level wasn't good enough, not nearly good enough, and it's gonna have to be better, obviously, on a team

哪里不够好了？没人能解释清楚这部分。他们每年都换教练。他知道自己会被交易到菲尼克斯，与杜兰特和布克一起打球，而当他被交易时，他放弃了交易否决权选择加入太阳队，一支已经有凯文·杜兰特和德文·布克的球队。他当时是怎么想的？他以为自己的出手次数和使用率会发生什么变化？

with wasn't it good enough? Nobody's been able to explain that part. They changed the coach every year. He knew he was going to play with Durant and Booker, and he knew he wasn't when when he gets traded, he waives his no trade clause to go to Phoenix, a team that already had Kevin Durant and Devin Booker. What did he think was gonna happen with the shots and the usage rate?

他以为这一切对他来说会很完美吗？那两位球员在季后赛中场均能拿60分。他到底以为会发生什么？

Did he think it was gonna be awesome for him? Those guys averaged, like, 60 points a game in the playoffs. What did he think was gonna happen?

我希望他明白自己会是第三选择，但我想说的是，你刚才提到了凯德。你要记住，环境真的很重要。比如，太阳队每年都换教练。他们花钱的方式已经成了一个笑话，尤其是围绕布拉德利·比尔，他也因此受到了不少嘲笑。

I would hope that he understood he'd be the third option, but I will say this. You just got through saying about Cade. Like, you always gotta remember that the circumstances really matter. Like, they do change the coach every year in Phoenix. They've kinda become a punchline for their spending, which focused on Bradley Beal, the sort of ridicule that he took.

你可是肢体语言专家。从上赛季第10场比赛开始，凯文·杜兰特的肢体语言怎么样？整个球队，整个球队看起来就像放弃了比赛一样。

And, like, you're the body language doctor. How was Kevin Durant's body language from, like, you know, game 10 on last season? Like, the whole team the whole team just seemed, like, checked out.

好吧，那为什么会发生这种情况？不过，这就是我的观点。我仍然不明白在菲尼克斯到底发生了什么，为什么那支球队在过去两年里如此不开心，为什么他们的表现会差到那种地步。然后，你知道的，有人说不，不，有杜兰特的时候其实挺好的。

Okay. So why did that happen? I this this is this is my point, though. I still don't understand what happened in Phoenix and why that team was so unhappy for two years, right, and why they fell as short as they did. And then, you know, it's like, no, no, it was good with Durant.

一切都很好。我们送他离开。这不是他的错，也不是德文·布克的错。即使上赛季我们和你一起只赢了35场比赛，我们还是给你开出了每年7500万美元的合同。

It was great. We're sending him off. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't Devin Booker's fault. Here's 75,000,000 a year, even though we'd won 35 games with you last year.

这也不是布拉德利·比尔的错。他是个好儿子。那么，到底是谁的错呢？因为那支队伍是我们去年看到的最不开心的球队之一，我也不知道为什么。

And it wasn't Bradley Beal's fault either. He was a great son. Well, whose fault was it? Because that was the unhappiest team all of us watched last year. And I don't know.

如果你要划分责任，谁应该承担最大的责任？我到现在还是搞不清楚。那支球队的阵容之外，肯定还有更多幕后的事情我们还没了解到。我还在等着看那种‘现在才告诉我们’的报道，但没人写出来。没有。

If you're carving up the blame pie, who has the biggest slice in the blame pie? I still can't figure it out. The rest of the roster there was more stuff going on behind the scenes than we're finding out about. And I'm still waiting for like the Now They Tell Us story, nobody wrote it. No.

我的意思是，

I mean,

肯定得有一些有趣的内容吧。比如，他们都明显提到了一些奇怪的事情，最接近的例子就是 Bud 告诉 Devin Booker，嘿，伙计，你在围圈讨论时得少说点话。这种说法真的很奇怪。是的。

somebody there's gotta be something somebody wrote that was interesting. Like, they all clearly, the closest thing was the the whole very weird, like, Bud telling Devin Booker, hey, man. You gotta, like, talk less in huddles. Like, that that that was that was a weird one. Yeah.

但我不确定这样的事情是否真的能瓦解一支球队。也许他们只是从未从两赛季前季后赛首轮被明尼苏达横扫的耻辱中恢复过来，那轮系列赛最后以 Bradley Beal 在最后六分钟三次摔倒丢球而告终。

But I'm not sure that can break a team like that. I maybe they just never recovered from just getting absolutely humiliated by Minnesota in the first round of the playoffs two seasons ago in a sweep in which that ended with Bradley Beal just, like, falling over and losing the ball three times in the in the last six minutes.

Bradley Beal 在那轮季后赛末期的表现太糟糕了，而这类事情随着时间的推移，我们慢慢就淡忘了。除了2017年的奇才队之外，我们几乎没见过Bradley Beal的其他高光时刻。我觉得即使他那时投篮状态有起有伏，但他真的在努力竞争。而现在的他，我看不到他还有那种斗志了。仅仅因为他现在签了合同就指望他重新找回斗志？这也是这件事的另一面。所以Bradley Beal竟然还能从这件事中赚到更多钱，Damian Lillard也是出于不同原因遇到了类似情况。我为Lillard感到难过，但他不知怎么弄伤了跟腱，反而也赚到了更多钱。

Bradley Beal was so bad in that end of that playoff series, and it's one of those things that we just time passes, and you just kind of forget. We've never really seen Bradley Bill except for the what was that? The 2017 Wizards, which I thought, even though he didn't I think he had some up and down shooting stuff, I felt like he really competed. I don't see a guy that competes in the same way anymore, and to just expect him to turn that on because he's in a contract here, that's the other piece of this. So Bradley Bale is somehow going to make more money out of this, and Dame Lowered, same thing for different reasons, and I feel bad for Dame, but Dame somehow tore his Achilles and somehow made more money out of it.

联盟现在处于一种奇怪的处境，他们设置了第二工资帽，惩罚所有球队，包括那些运作良好的聪明球队。你选人出色、签约得当，但却有另一个机制：你可能会受伤、表现糟糕或者干脆打不好，结果反而能从中获利，赚更多钱。部分舆论认为，如果Bradley Beal在快船表现出色，他将成为明年夏天最大的自由球员。但问题是，他已经每年赚5300万美元了，这还不够激励他吗？这样的人真的是你愿意下注的对象吗？

The league is in this weird situation where they have this second apron that penalizes everybody and penalizes all these smart teams, and you draft well and you sign well, but then it has this other mechanism where you can kind of either get hurt or tank your situation or just not play well, and it can somehow work out, we will make more money. Because part of the narrative was, well, Bradley Beale does well in the Clippers, he'll be the biggest free agent a year from now. It's like he was already making 53,000,000 a year, that wasn't enough incentive for him, and that's somebody I'd want to bet on?

刻薄吗？

Mean,

我是不是有点刻薄了？我觉得我可能是少数派。

am I being a dick? Like, I I feel like I'm in the minority on this.

快船用550万美元的薪资空间能换来比Bradley Beal更好的球员是谁？

Who were the Clippers getting with a 5 and a half million dollar salary slot that's better than Bradley Beal?

没人。他场均17分，三分命中率39%，但我真的会很担心。这就是问题所在。我本来就对球队化学反应有顾虑，尤其是对他的硬伤，根本不知道关键时刻能不能信任他。对于Beal，我完全没底。他在菲尼克斯担任替补角色球员时并不开心，现在他却会满意这个角色？

Nobody. He was 17 points a game, 39% threes, but I would be really worried about So that's it. I have this chemistry thing where I already have the, whatever, hard end, just never knowing whether I can trust him in a game. I have Beal where I have no idea. He wasn't happy as a relegated role player in Phoenix, but now he's gonna be happy with that.

我也不确定是否能信任Kawhi。这支球队现在只有两年的争冠窗口期，对吧？我迫不及待想聊聊这个部分。你引进CP3基本上就是走个过场。

I don't know whether I can trust Kawhi. It's a team that now has a clear two year window. Right? And I can't wait to talk about that piece of it. You're bringing CP in basically ceremonial.

他在常规赛可能打40场比赛，也许会在季后赛有个高光时刻。但我真的非常担心Beal在菲尼克斯发生的事情意味着什么，因为他在华盛顿的最后一年也不开心。我们还没看到这个人在2020年代开心过。与此同时，他一直在赚大钱。

He'll play 40 games during the regular season. He might have a playoff moment. But I would just have real concerns about what happened to Beal and Phoenix and whether, what that meant because he wasn't happy that last year in Washington either. We haven't seen the guy be happy in the twenty twenties. Meanwhile, he's been making crazy money.

我就是不明白，我需要有人给我解释一下。而且，比如说，他的经纪人和那个儿子，你知道的，总裁或者什么的，他们是父子关系。我知道这一点。你们能做的最好的事情就是，哦，布拉德利削减了他从快船队将要获得的正好是那笔钱，这会为马特·伊什比节省一大笔钱。

I just I don't get it. I so I need it explained to me. And on top of it, like, his agent and the son's, you know, president or whatever, they're father and son. I'm aware. And the best you could do is, oh, Bradley cut the exact amount of money he's gonna get from the Clippers, and it's gonna save Matt Ishby all this money.

这就让人疑惑了，为什么他离开一个他讨厌的环境时，不需要放弃更多的钱呢？如果你是太阳队，为什么你不等到二月份再这么做呢？如果你要买断合同，你不会从中获得任何好处，而且奢侈税那些规定要到二月份才生效，为什么不等等看，和他们对峙一下呢？我能，我能

It's like, why didn't he have to give up more money to leave a situation he hated? And if you're Phoenix, why didn't you wait until February to do this? If you're gonna buy them out, you're not gonna get any relief out of it, and the luxury tax does all that shit doesn't kick in till February, why not wait and try to have a staring contest with them? Can I can I

现在就来点温和的观点吧，说到这个

just unleash a mild take right now speaking of This

我已经准备好了

is I'm so ready for

了吗？这让我想起来了一件事。在NBA的讨论中有很多话题我们是应该禁止的。比如，没人应该再提那个人了。我们必须禁止。

it? This reminded me. There are a lot of things we have to ban in NBA discourse. Like, nobody's talking about that guy. We need to ban that.

那个人可是个职业选手，这是我们必须要禁止的。我昨天坐下来，不知道为什么，我竟然决定要看完整个11分半的视频，那是菲尼克斯太阳队刚刚发布的关于他们选秀期间的内部视频，

That guy's a pro here's what we need to ban. I sat down yesterday, and for some goddamn reason, I decided I'm gonna watch the entire eleven and a half minute video that the Phoenix Suns just posted inside our draft room,

选秀的第一天就这样。别再这样了。禁止吧。他们应该排在第45位。

day one of the draft. No more. No more. Ban them. They should be 45.

我一直等到第八分钟，心想视频里可能会发生什么有趣的事情。结果就是一群家伙穿着同样丑爆了的太阳队Polo衫击掌庆祝，因为那个他们想要的人可能会掉到他们的顺位。然后就是一些电话，布莱恩·格雷戈里说：嘿，兄弟，来凤凰城努力工作吧。

I I kept waiting minute eight. Maybe there'll be something interesting that happens in the video. And it's just a bunch of dudes wearing the same ugly ass Suns polo, high fiving about how the guy they wanted might fall to them. And then it's just phone calls where Brian Gregory is like, hey, man. Let's come here in Phoenix and work hard.

你想努力工作吗？马劳茨回答说：是的，我会努力工作的。好的，我让乔丹·奥特跟你说两句。

You wanna work hard? And Malawatz being like, yep. I'm gonna work hard. Alright. Let me give you over to Jordan Ott.

乔丹·奥特会跟你说点什么。和家人一起享受这个夜晚吧，享受这个夜晚，然后来凤凰城努力工作。是的，先生。我会去凤凰城的。

Jordan Ott's gonna say something to you. Enjoy this night with your family. Enjoy this night with your family, then come here to Phoenix and work hard. Yes, sir. I'm gonna come here to Phoenix.

够了。然后还有一个白板被模糊处理了。别再放这种视频了，大家都像这样， yeah。好了。Woo。

Enough. And then there's the whiteboard that's blurred out. Just no more videos of everyone being like, yeah. Alright. Woo.

Woo。看看我们的Polo衫。

Woo. Look at our polos.

别再这样了。有没有人曾在前15顺位选中某人时表现得不兴奋？我想看看选秀室的镜头，人们当时是那种反应，

No more. Has anybody ever not been excited when they drafted somebody in the top 15? Where's the draft room footage of the people like,

什么都没有。国王队打电话通知帕帕扬尼斯选中的镜头在哪？你知道吗？

Nothing. Where's the draft room footage of the Kings calling in the Papayanes pick? You know?

他们必须打电话，这就是我想看到的，因为太阳队，我相信他们必须为国王队做出那个选择。我想看到瑞安·麦克多诺在电话里说，是的，他们想要帕皮兰尼斯，兄弟。我也不知道该怎么跟你说。

And they have to call that's what I want to see because the Suns, I believe, had to make that pick for the Kings. I want to see Ryan McDonough on the phone being like, yeah, they want they want Papillanes, man. I don't I don't know what to tell you.

他们告诉我选帕皮兰尼斯的人就是他。他们不

That's who they're telling me to pick Papillanes. They don't. They're a

一个来自希腊的家伙。他就是我们想要的人。全是垃圾的11分钟，兄弟。抱歉。在

guy from Greece. That's the guy we want. Eleven minutes of crap, man. I'm sorry. There's nothing interesting happened in the

整个视频里什么都没发生。别看了。

whole video. Don't watch it.

精彩的抱怨，我完全同意。所以，老将冠军们，如果你认为36岁的詹姆斯·哈登在季后赛中会奇迹般地改变自己的打法，那么老将冠军的两个相似情况就是1998年的公牛和2011年的独行侠。2011年的独行侠，德克32岁，马里昂33岁，基德38岁，特里33岁，钱德勒28岁。佩贾，我忘了。

Great rant. Couldn't agree more. So old guy champions, if you think if you think James Harden at age 36 is gonna miraculously change who he is in playoff games, Old guy champions, the two doppelgangers would be the ninety eight bulls and the 2011 mavericks. In 2011 mavericks, Dirk was 32, Marion, 33, Kidd, 38, Terry, 33, Chandler, 28. Peja, forgot.

他在那支球队场均打18分钟。我不记得任何关于他上场时间的记忆。然后他33岁了，而贝雷亚是队里最年轻的，26岁。守护者，现在联盟水平高多了，你要面对的是一支雷霆队，这支球队里的所有人基本上都是迈克尔·乔丹最后一次打公牛比赛之后出生的，除了我，比如，

He played eighteen minutes a game on that team. I don't remember any of the minutes. And then he was 33, and Berea was the youngest guy at 26. Guardian, Well, the difference is the league is much better now, and you're going against this OKC team where basically all the guys in the team are born after Michael Jordan's last Bulls game, except I for, like,

不过，我觉得那支球队过去和现在都被反复提起，是人们心目中的黄金标准。原因就在于，他们作为一个实力不错但并非顶尖的球队，总是能一次次地争取到击倒对手的机会。也许在某一年，一切都会顺利到位。我认为快船队现在玩的就是这种策略，就是那种球队。嗯，这就是快船队实际上在玩的策略，因为如果你给他们注射吐真剂，让他们说实话，他们会说：‘我们有机会。’走吧，开始吧。

think that that team, though, is and remains a team that gets brought up. The gold standard. For but for this reason of of, like, they're the just stay just give yourself the puncher's chance as many times as you can as a good and maybe not great team, and maybe one year it all comes into place. And I think that's just that's the game the Clippers are playing, is like, that's the team. Well, here's the game the Clippers are actually playing, because if you put if you gave them truth serum Oh, let's go.

对，开始吧，动手吧。如果你给他们注射了吐真剂，然后问他们：‘你们真的觉得自己有机会赢得总冠军吗？’得了吧，别骗人了。

Yeah. Let's go. Let's do it. If you gave them truth serum, and you said, do you think you could actually win the title? Like, come on.

他们可能会说：‘好吧，我们大概有一次重拳出击的机会，但雷霆队……不过那是……’

They'd be like, alright, we have like a haymaker puncher's chance, but OKC's But that's

这其实就是我整个播客想表达的意思。我认为这就是他们的想法。

gonna what I'm really saying this whole podcast. I think that's what they think.

但他们真正做的是为2027年夏天腾出了薪资空间。而诺曼·鲍威尔的交易是其中的重要一环。如果他们不给鲍威尔续约合同，他会不高兴的。但他们并不想给他续约合同。那为什么呢？

But what they've really done here is cleared the books for the summer of twenty twenty seven. And the Norm Powell piece was a big part of this. He was gonna be unhappy if they didn't give him an extension. They didn't wanna give him an extension. Well, why?

他上赛季几乎都入选全明星了，只是季后赛打得不好。这并不足以成为拒绝续约的理由。鲍尔默一向愿意花钱、愿意投资，他从不惧怕为未来付出代价。但现在这支球队明显是短期计划，最多两年。那为什么呢？

He was almost an all star last year. Didn't play well in the playoffs. That's not enough of a reason. Balmer is a guy that has always spent and added and paid money, and he's never been afraid of the future, and now this is a team that's clearly, we are on short term here, we're on two years. Well, why?

这是因为扬尼斯将在2027年夏天成为自由球员。我不认为这只是某些电视网络喜欢炒作的话题，随便抛出一些名字和球队的组合。我认为这件事是真的。我认为雄鹿队对此非常担忧。这也是米尔斯·特纳交易发生的重要原因之一，因为雄鹿队知道他们只有两年的时间窗口和扬尼斯一起争冠，而且扬尼斯的合同还有一个球员选项。他们正尽可能地做一切努力，确保如果有人对他们抛出橄榄枝，他们至少有足够的基础来留住他。

It's because Giannis is a free agent in the summer of twenty twenty seven. And I don't this is like the, you know, there's maybe some TV networks that dabble and specialize in this, just throwing out names and teams. I think there's, this is a real thing. I think the Bucks are terrified of it. I think it's a big reason why the Miles Turner thing happened, because the Bucks knew they were on a two year window with Giannis, and that is a player option, and they're trying to do as much as they can to make it so that if anyone's winking at them, that they'll at least have enough of a foundation to try to keep them.

关于扬尼斯的一点是，他已经赢得过总冠军了，对吧？当你已经夺冠之后，心态是不一样的，因为你现在会权衡：我已经赢过了。我可以从头到尾都在密尔沃基打球。从各方面来看，他都应该属于密尔沃基。但如果你是快船队，短期来看，你有机会以一个挑战者的身份去争夺总冠军，但从长远来看，到2027年夏天，你的薪资空间非常宽裕。

The one thing with Giannis is he's already won the title, right? When you've already won, it's a different level of mentality because now you're weighing, I've already won. I could start and finish my career in Milwaukee. By all counts, Milwaukee. But I think if you're the Clippers, and short term, you can compete with a puncher's chance for a title, but long term, you have 20,000,000 on your books in the summer of twenty seven.

你账面上只有祖巴茨了。仅此而已。你可以基本上重新组建一支球队，而快船届时将处于最有利的位置。鲍尔默根本不在乎钱。你去过训练馆吗？没有。

You just have Zubots. That's it. You can basically build a new team, and they're in the best position. Bomber doesn't care about money. Have you been in the practice No.

他们的设施简直就像一座宫殿。你走进去就会觉得，这支球队愿意投入一切资源、每一分钱，只为打动那些为他们效力的球员。我认为这就是他们的最终目标：在2027年夏天有所作为。短期目标是尝试赢球，长期目标则是围绕扬尼斯建队。

Their thing is like a fucking palace. Like, go there, and you're like, This is a team that spends every possible asset, dollar, whatever, to impress the people that play for it. And I think that's their end game, is that summer twenty twenty seven. Short term, let's try to win. Long term, Giannis.

这就是他们的想法。

And that's how they're thinking.

所以有几点。劳伦斯·弗兰克不会偷偷地眨眼。他的眨眼方式就像《宋飞正传》里科斯坦萨把葡萄柚果肉弄进眼睛里的样子。还记得招募卡瓦伊的时候，他只是偶尔出现在多伦多的比赛现场？就那样，现在有了扬尼斯作为球员选项可能会有所不同，但快船队的运作方式一点都不含蓄。

So a couple of things. Lawrence Frank does not does not wink subtly. He winks like Costanza's got the grapefruit pulp in his eye in Seinfeld. Remember the Kawhi recruitment when he was just, like, at Toronto games? Just that and now it might be different with Giannis as a player option, but, like, there ain't nothing subtle about how the Clippers operate.

第二点，如果有必要的话，他们明年也有能力获得最大薪资空间，因为哈登的合同只是部分保障。这有点奇怪，他拥有球员选项，而据我所知，只有大约1300万美元是保障的，总金额大概是4000多万。然后他们还拥有很多球员的球队选项，比如博格达诺维奇、洛佩斯，都是球队选项。

Number two, they're also in position if if need be to get max cap space a year from now because Harden's contract is partially guaranteed. It's a it's a weird thing where he got the player option, and they got I think it's only 13,000,000 out of 40 whatever million guaranteed. And then they have team options on, like, a million guys. Bogdanovich, team option. Lopez, team option.

帕特姆也是球队选项。他们可以毫不费力地腾出5000万美元的空间。所以他们在多个层面上都很灵活。当然，每个人都知道扬尼斯的合同期限，每个人也都看得到雄鹿队有多迫切。

Patum, team option. Like, they could clear out $50,000,000 of space from their books without even trying. So they're they're flexible on a couple of different levels, but sure. I mean, everybody knows the timetable of Giannis' contract. Everybody sees how desperate the Bucks are.

而且，你知道，我并没有完全放弃。我想没人会完全放弃。我在想，我们真的确定扬尼斯已经下定决心了吗？我现在不想再考虑其他任何事情了。我不确定这一点。

And, you know, I haven't closed the books. It's I don't think anybody has closed the books. I'm like, do we do we do we know that Giannis is like, okay. I'm done thinking about anything else now. I don't I don't know that.

是的。

Yeah.

但据各方面消息，他在密尔沃基过得很好，而且这支球队也会表现得很出色。我的意思是，考虑到球队第二好的球员年薪超过五千万美元，整个赛季都会缺席，你原本会认为这支球队没有竞争力。但他们实际上度过了一个非常成功的休赛期。科尓·安东尼的签约是个大事件，但他们几乎没花什么代价就得到了他。他是个轮换球员。他们还以很低的成本留下了特伦特。

But he by all accounts, he's fine in Milwaukee, and the team's gonna be pretty good. I mean, they actually had a really good off season when you consider, like, what, that the second best player in the team who made 50 plus million dollars was gonna miss the entire season, and you would've said, This team has no chance to look competitive. The Cole Anthony thing was a big deal, but they got him to be able to get somebody like that for nothing. He's a rotation guy. They kept Trent for nothing.

他是个轮换球员。你知道，他们组建了一支在一周的赛区比赛中，至少拥有赛区最佳球员的队伍，现在他们已经进入竞争行列了。我认为他们比快船队更有机会，挺有意思的。

He's a rotation guy. You know, they've added together a team that in a week conference with the best player in the conference at least is now in the game, and I think with more of a puncher's chance than maybe the Clippers out Interesting.

我同意你的看法。前几天我研究了东部所有球队的阵容，我觉得雄鹿队其实比我想象的要强一些。

I act I don't disagree with you. I went through all the East rosters the other day, I'm like, the Bucks are actually a little better than I think they are.

是的。他们阵容更有深度，也更适合日常比赛。我确实认为他们可以组合出一些我喜欢的阵容。我不介意他们的一些年轻球员。他们已经拥有一些不错的投手。

Yeah. They have a little more depth and a little more day to day, and I do think they can patch together some some lineups that I like. I don't mind a couple of their young guys. They have some shooting already.

我同意你的看法。比如说，他一次又一次地表明他更愿意留在密尔沃基。这让我讽刺地想起波特兰的达米安（Dame），当时他们就只是走来走去，反复拉扯。现在他回来了，公开表示也许我当初不应该离开。扬尼斯（Giannis）让我想起了这一点。

And I agree with you. Like, he's shown us over and over again he would prefer to stay in Milwaukee. It actually reminds me of ironically Dame in Portland who would they would just like walked up and walked back, walked up and walked back. And like now that he's back, he's publicly saying, like, I kinda maybe I shouldn't have ever left. And Giannis kinda reminds me of that.

是的。

Yeah.

你这次和马奥尼（Mahoney）在播客上的谈话做得很好，谈到了达米安在波特兰建立的文化，以及他如何一次次全力以赴。我认为后来改变这一切的是选中斯库特·亨德森（Scoot Henderson），获得了一个前三顺位的新秀，一个未来的控球后卫。我觉得这改变了他们对球队的看法，这也是我之前提到圣安东尼奥的原因。有时候你在选秀中会走运，这会彻底改变你原本的建队计划。在这种情况下，我想说，如果他没有受伤，我会非常感兴趣地想看看他们今夏会如何处理达米安的问题，是否会尝试将他交易出去。

You did a good job with Mahoney talking about the on the pod you did with Mahoney this week about the culture that Dame put in Portland and how he was all in and all in and all in. And I think what changed that was the Scoot Henderson pick and just getting a getting a top three pick and taking a future point guard. And I just think that changed how they thought about it, which is why I brought up San Antonio earlier. Sometimes you can get lucky in the draft, and it can just completely change what you thought your plans were for a roster. And in that case, I think, you know, I I would have been really interested if he hadn't gotten hurt to see how they would have handled Dame this summer, and whether they would have would have tried to pedal him.

因为在他受伤前的赛季后半段，我觉得他打得相当不错。好了，所以我们现在要重点关注扬尼斯与快船之间的传闻。我不是说这个想法是我们首创的，但我还是想快速提一下。我们先休息一下，之后我还有点别的东西要和你讨论。自从你我上次谈论篮球以来，还发生了一件事，那就是迈阿密热火队——这支‘不死队’（zombie heat）。

Because he ended up the second half of the season before he got hurt. I thought he was pretty good. All right, so we're just we planted our flag on keeping an eye on this Giannis Clippers thing. I'm not saying we invented it, but I wanted to quickly mention let's take one more break, and then I have another thing to throw you here. So one other thing happened since the last time you and I talked basketball, and it's the Miami heat, the zombie heat.

我不是说他们已经跑到玉米地里开始吃人了，但他们在夏天确实做了一些小动作，让人感觉这支球队已经完了，也许应该考虑交易掉巴姆（BAM），彻底推倒重建。这支球队似乎正在形成某种阵容灵活性和身份定位，我不知道你是否对此感兴趣。所以，你是对它感兴趣吗？

I'm not saying they're in the Cornfield starting to eat human beings again, but there were a couple small things they did over the course of the summer where it's like, I just thought that team was done and maybe should think about trading BAM and just blowing it up and starting over. There's just kind of a roster flexibilityidentity forming, and I didn't know if you were intrigued by it. So are you intrigued by it?

你是不是有什么心灵感应的能力啊？还记得几个月前你问过我说，有哪些球队是你在关注的，可能在休赛期会有点动静的。我当时提到了一支球队，你立刻说，那正是你想聊的那支。所以明天我要和扎克·洛（Zach Lowe）一起录一期播客，我们要把东部的球队分个档次，这是我喜欢做的事情。

You have this, it's I don't know if you have some telepathy abilities. Like like, remember a couple months ago, you said, you know, what teams do you have your eye on is like potentially frisky teams in the off season. I mentioned one, you were like, that's the one I wanna talk about. So tomorrow, I'm having we're doing a pod the Zach Lowe show. We're gonna put the Eastern Conference teams into tiers of teams, which is what I like to do just for fun.

我在看FanDuel的赔率，一、二、三、四名，迈阿密排在第十位争夺东部冠军。我不是说迈阿密能赢下东部，这不是我们讨论的重点。

And I'm looking at the FanDuel odds. One two three four. Miami is tenth to win the to win the East. I'm not saying Miami's gonna win the East. That's not a conversation.

我只是说，目前的赔率就是这样的。印第安纳的赔率是+2300，排在第九位，然后直接跳到+4100，那就是迈阿密。

I'm just saying the odds are what they are. Indiana's plus 2,300. They're ninth. Then there's a jump all the way to plus 4,100. That's Miami.

再往后是+4600的猛龙队。我一直看着迈阿密之上的这些球队，包括印第安纳、密尔沃基、波士顿、费城这一组。我在想，我不认为迈阿密比这些球队差。我知道这些球队除了受伤的印第安纳之外，可能每个队都有一位比迈阿密球员厉害得多的球星。也许连印第安纳，就算有西亚卡姆（Siakam），也比迈阿密强。

And then plus 4,600 is the raptors. And I keep looking at the teams above Miami, Indiana, Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia, that group. And I'm like, I don't think Miami's worse than those teams. Like, I I I understand that Miami that all of those teams save Indiana with Halliburton hurt. And maybe even Indiana with Siakam have a player who's much better than anyone on Miami.

我不认为西亚卡姆比巴姆（BAM）强很多，可能整体上稍微好一点。波士顿还有杰伦·布朗（Jalen Brown），费城还有看谁健康的时候谁就厉害。密尔沃基还有个MVP热门人选。

I don't say Siakam is much better than Bam. He's probably a little better all around. But Boston's still got Jalen Brown. Philly's got whoever is healthy. Milwaukee has an MVP candidate.

我有点认为热火队在这个小组中表现不错。今天早上我们在开始录制这个播客之前，我和几位球队管理层的人聊了聊，想让他们说服我不要对热火队抱有太多乐观的期待。其中一个人确实尝试了，他多少也表达了一些类似的观点。我不是说这支球队有多么出色，但如果有人告诉我热火队最终能取得45胜37负，勉强进入第六种子的位置，我也不会感到惊讶。

I kinda think the heat are in that group. And I was talking to a couple front office guys earlier this morning before we hopped on this podcast, almost trying to get them to talk me out of my Heat optimism. And and one of them tried to. One of them kinda shared. I I don't I'm not saying this is like a great team, but if you told me the Heat went forty five and thirty seven and snuck into the sixth seed or whatever, I I wouldn't be surprised.

我认为这支球队比维加斯给他们的评价要高。他们的胜负盘大概是38胜半左右吧？

I think this is a better team than than Vegas is giving them credit for. What's their I bet their over under is like 38 and a half or something like that.

是的，38胜半，这太低了。我其实觉得，虽然听起来有点疯狂，但我真的认为热火队可能赢下48场比赛，这完全取决于东部从明星实力角度来看会有多糟糕。

Yeah. 38 and a half. It's too low. And I I actually think I I know it's insane. I actually think, like, 48 wins could be in play with the with how bad that with how bad the East is gonna be from a star power standpoint.

你不会每晚都面对超级明星。比如你可能会打76人队，但没有恩比德；你可能会打凯尔特人队，但没有塔图姆。你顺着往下看，东部的比赛难度根本无法和去年相比。

You're just not going against stars night after night. You're going against, like, you might play Philly, there's no Embiid. You're gonna play Boston, there's no Tatum. You go on down the line, East games are just not gonna be as hard as they were last year.

就在我们开始录制这个播客前的二十分钟，我跟一位来自东部另一支球队的管理人员聊过，我问他：我觉得迈阿密有可能取得46胜36负，成为第五或第六种子，你觉得我是不是疯了？是不是我漏看了什么关于东部格局的东西？我到底忽略了什么？因为我看起来对热火队的判断似乎完全偏离了现实。他有点像是说，是的。

So literally, twenty minutes before we hopped on this podcast, I was talking to an executive on another Eastern Conference team saying, like, am I crazy to think Miami could win could be like forty six and thirty six and be the fifth or sixth seed? Like, is that am I, like, a like, am I missing something about the composition of the East? Like, what am I missing? Because I seem to be wildly off on Miami. And he kinda was like, yeah.

“46场胜利看起来有点多了，但就在三十分钟前我还跟别人说过这个数字，我说的是46场。你说的是48场。对我来说，48场有点太高了。46场意味着比500胜率多赢了10场球。”

'46 seems a little much, but I I literally just said this to somebody thirty minutes ago. I said forty six. You said forty eight. Forty eight seems a little high to me. Forty six, it's 10 games over 500.

这是一支不错的球队，我不知道

Like, that's a good team. I don't know

如果这有点过于乐观了的话

if that's a little over

但我同意你的看法。

my skis, but I'm with you.

我不知道我们会看到什么。

I don't know what we see.

鲍威尔在这里有一份合同。我们已经知道他每场比赛能得19分。他们拥有维金斯整整一年。他们还有赫罗和阿德巴约。

Powell on a contract here. We already know he's gonna he's a 19 game point a game scorer. They have Wiggins for a full year. They have Hero. They have Adebayo.

他们还有我挺喜欢的方泰基奥。抱歉，我总是会站在正确的球队一边，我觉得那个人能成功。有些球员，如果在错误的球队，我理解他们的表现不好，但如果在一支球员都清楚自己在做什么的球队，我就是支持他。乔维奇，其他人都喜欢，但我没那么喜欢，比如普里西拉就喜欢他。

They got Fontecchio, who I just like. I'm sorry. I'm I'm always gonna think on the right team, that guy can succeed. There's just certain guys, like, on the wrong team, I get it, but on a team where guys know what they're doing, I'm just in on him. Jovich, everybody else likes, I don't like him as much, like, Priscilla likes him.

我喜欢乔维奇。

I like Jovich.

我还没真正看到他的表现，但我知道你喜欢他，当然你喜欢他。他有那种潜力。

I haven't really seen it yet, but I know, you're Of course, you like him. He's got the itch.

我得被欢迎才行。你得……

I gotta be welcomed. You've an

对潜力的渴望。

itch for the itches.

相信我，我们在克罗地亚拜访过的所有人，他们都知道我选的奖项名单，如果我忽略了某个巴尔干球员，他们会让我知道的。

Believe me, all the people in Croatia that we visit with when we're there, they know my awards ballot, and if I've shunned the wrong Balkan, hear about it.

哈卡兹，如果他能学会投篮的话。亚科肖尼斯，我仍然觉得他会表现不错，我依然看好他。然后他们还有我一直喜欢的海史密斯。我不知道，我只是不讨厌他们的球队。还有一个罗杰相关的情况。

Hakaz, if he ever learns how to shoot. Yakashonis, I still feel like is gonna I'm still in. And then they have Highsmith, who I've always liked. I don't know, I just don't mind their team. There's a Roger piece.

这件事有两种可能的发展方向是好的，一种是糟糕的。好的发展方向之一是他在合同年，也许他回来后通过审查，重新找回状态。这个人两年前还是场均24分的得分手，为此他们放弃了一个首轮选秀权。第二种好的发展方向，对罗杰来说可能并不好。如果他被禁赛一整年呢？

There's two ways it could go good, and one way it can go awful. The two ways it could go good is he's in a contract year, maybe he comes back, he gets cleared, and he's actually good again. This was a guy who was like a 24 a game scorer two years ago, they gave up a first round pick for. The second way it could go good for them, wouldn't be good for Rogier. What if it turns out he gets suspended for the year?

比如说他从工资帽中移除了吗？这怎么算？我们以前没遇到过这种情况。他会从工资帽中消失吗？我觉得如果有人能从这种情况下走运，那一定是迈阿密。我和迈克·谢尔聊过，他是最讨厌热火队的人，我当时说，你得明白如果罗格被禁赛一年，联盟总会想出办法，让那笔工资神奇地从迈阿密的工资帽中消失。

Like does he come off the cap? How does that work? We haven't had that happen before. Does he disappear from the cap? It feels like if anyone would ever luck out from something like this I was talking to my friend, Mike Scher, who hates the heat the most, and I was like, You realize if Ruger gets suspended for a year, the league will somehow figure out a way that that just magically comes off Miami's cap.

然后他就像，你毁了我这一天！

And he's like, You've ruined my day!

我喜欢你们大家仍然保持迈阿密的这种状态

I like that you guys are still the Miami scars are

我只是仍然希望他们彻底失败。是的。我只是希望热火文化彻底终结，但它永远不会消失。我认为这种情况最糟糕的发展方式是，这变成一个巨大的2660万美元的问题。2660万美元，他不打球，但你还不能交易他，因为他被禁赛了，这就像是球队一年的薪资负担，这是最糟糕的一种结局。

I just still want deep them to for die. Yeah. I just want heat culture to just be dead, and it never dies. But the third way it would go, I think the bad version of this is that's just a giant 26.6 thing. 26,600,000.0, he's not playing, but you also can't trade him because he gets suspended, and it's just like this cap albatross for a year is the one bad way this would play out.

所以谁知道呢？

So who knows?

我暂时把他排除在轮换阵容之外。当我在……的时候

I'm penciling him in as out of the rotation. When I'm when I'm

我认为这很合理。

I think that's fair.

不，不，不。我只是从我对热火队的预测角度来说，因为我想确保我的乐观情绪不是基于特里·罗齐尔这件事有很小的可能彻底扭转。我不指望这种情况发生。

No. No. No. Just just in terms of my projection of the heat because I wanna make sure my opt I wanna make sure my optimism is not based on the whatever small percent chance that the Terry Rozier thing totally turns around. I'm not expecting that to happen.

他对于迈阿密来说简直就是一个彻底的零分。这简直难以置信，从半主力到主力球员的表现，一下子变成连季后赛都上不了场的人，而他的球队甚至输掉50分。这是最不起眼却又最令人震惊的事情之一。

Like, it's been un it's unbelievable how much of a zero he's been for Miami. Like, it's it's one of the most under the radar shocking, like, from from semi productive slash productive to, like like, can't even get on the floor in the playoffs for a team that's losing by 50.

我认为场外的事情彻底毁了他上赛季的表现。你根本无法从那种情况中恢复过来，特别是如果你觉得一些非常糟糕的事情正在发生。但他在夏洛特的时候表现真的很出色。关键时刻得分？是的，他正逐渐成为一个你必须认真考虑的球员，就像去年诺曼·鲍威尔的情况一样，虽然他不是全明星，但你实际上必须把他列入讨论范围。

The off court stuff, I think, murdered his season last year. There's no way you can come back from that, especially if you think potentially really bad things are happening. But he was really good on Charlotte. Crunch time score? Yeah, he was becoming a guy that you had to start talking about as, you know, kind of like what happened with Norm Powell last year, where he wasn't an all star, but you actually had to throw his name into the conversation for it.

无论如何，我喜欢他们所做的一件事，我也喜欢米切尔的签约。我一直没有放弃这个家伙，对那个岛上的公寓感觉很好。但他们现在有一个适合交易的灵活阵容，对吧？比如鲍威尔的合同是到期的，冯特奇奥的合同也是到期的，希格斯的合同也是到期的，维金斯明年有球员选项，3000万美元，也不算太差。这看起来有点像当年詹姆斯的情况，我直接说吧。如果有人从时光机里出来告诉你，1月、2月的时候，勒布朗·詹姆斯会被交易，你需要选一支球队，我想迈阿密会是我考虑的球队之一。

Anyway, one of the things I like about what they did, and I like the Mitchell signing too, I've always never gave up on that dude, feeling good about my condo on that island, but they have a flexible roster for trades, right? Like Powell's still an expiring, Fontecchio's an expiring, Highsmith's an expiring, Wiggins has a player option for next year at 30, it's not bad. It's a situation that looks a little LeBron y, I'm just gonna say it. We were gonna go, all right, somebody came from a time machine and said, In January, February, LeBron James will be traded, and you had to pick a team, I think Miami would be one of the teams I would think about.

好的，两点。我已经想好了，两点。第一，他们首轮只拥有第27号签，我相信如果操作得当，他们可以向上交易到第三位。

Okay. Two two things. And I already I already okay. Two things. Number one, they're only in the hole one first round pick, and I believe they could trade up to three if they do it right.

他们没有。他们的第27号签因为之前提到的特里·罗杰斯的灾难性交易已经属于夏洛特了。

They don't. Their 27 pick goes to Charlotte for the aforementioned Terry Roger disaster trade.

第二点，我知道没人有时间每一集都听扎克·洛的节目，更别说像你这么忙的人了。上周在拉斯维加斯的时候，我说过我做了一期关于勒布朗的节目，因为大家都在谈论勒布朗。我当时说，其实我已经把大家都会提到的那些球队都分析过了，比如骑士、独行侠、勇士、尼克斯等等。我说，当时我漏掉了一个球队，就是热火，其实有一笔看起来对双方都不算疯狂的潜在热火重聚交易。不过我在那个播客中没有提到的是，我应该怪当时在拉斯维加斯时脑子有点迷糊了，那就是那次交易的结果其实非常糟糕。

Number two, I know no one has time to listen to every episode of the Zach Lowe show, let alone let alone someone as busy as you. Last week in Vegas, I I said I did a segment on LeBron because everyone's talking about LeBron. And I said, look, I've already done all the all the, like I've already gone through all the teams everybody's gone through, the Clevelands, the Dallas, the Warriors, the Knicks, and on and on. I said, the one team I forgot to bring up when I was doing it is like, there's actually kind of a a heat reunion trade that isn't crazy on paper for either team if it ever came to that. What I neglected to mention on that podcast and should have blamed the Vegas haze that I was in, is it ended very badly.

比如，他离开迈阿密的时候，那里确实留下了不少的不满情绪，尤其是他离开的方式。而莱利这个人，给我的感觉就是他不太容易放下这种情绪。当然，赢球和拥有超级巨星能掩盖很多问题，但我不反对你的观点。比如说，勒布朗现在在湖人队，我听说夏天联赛期间这个话题一度很热，但现在好像冷了下来。

Like, there were hard feelings in Miami when he left and the banner in which he left. And Riley doesn't strike me as someone who gets over hard feelings particularly easily. Now winning and a superstar papers over a lot, but I don't disagree with you. Like, I don't LeBron's on the Lakers. I've heard there's it's kind of gotten quiet now after it was the talk of summer league.

看起来无论是哪边，都没有一个很清晰的解决方案。大家都在说我们应该期待湖人队之外的球队。这也是我的预期。但我同意你的看法，从纸面来看，确实存在一笔对热火和湖人来说都不算疯狂的交易。

There doesn't seem to be like a clean solution either way. Everyone's saying we should expect them beyond the Lakers. That's my expectation. But I agree with you. Like, on paper, there's a heat trade that is not crazy for either team.

比如在一月份用威金斯和鲍威尔换一个不开心的勒布朗，可能再加上一些选秀权的交换。

Wiggins and Powell for unhappy LeBron in January and maybe some sort

也许就是这样。

of pick swap, maybe that's all it is.

嗯，

Well As

尽管听起来很疯狂。

crazy as that sounds.

我认为对于湖人队来说，戴维斯必须参与其中。因为我自己也特别强调过，我需要一个能和卢卡相提并论的内线得分手，诸如此类，而我却在交易历史上最伟大的球员之一。这笔交易我必须操作得非常精准，而我认为戴维斯会是他们必须得到的那个球员。

I think for the Lakers, wear has gotta be in it. Like, just because I've gone out of my way to to say I've gotta get a rim runner that compare with Luka, blah blah blah, and I'm trading arguably the greatest player of all time. I I gotta I gotta hit the trade well, and I think he'd be the piece that they'd have to get.

嗯，唯一可能的情况是，如果真的迫切需要交易他，你知道的，他必须开始表现得消极攻击，但在他整个职业生涯中，我们从未见过他这样做。

Well, the only thing if there would be real urgency to trade him, you know, he would have to start acting passive aggressively, and we've just never seen him do that over the course of his career.

我就让这句话在空中飘一会儿吧。

I'm just gonna let let that hang hang in the air there.

在他整个职业生涯中，没有任何证据表明他可以利用常规赛作为一种手段来促成他支持的交易。你

Just been no evidence over the course of his career that he could use the regular season as a tool to try to make a transaction happen that he would be in favor of. Do you

觉得他想在职业生涯末期这么做吗

think he wants to do that at the end of his

我想不出任何例子。

Can't think of any examples.

但你觉得他愿意通过这么做，来玷污他职业生涯最后这几年，尤其是他儿子还在球队的时候吗？

But do you think he'd want to taint the last x years of his career with his son on the team by doing that?

我正在努力回想。是的，我真的想不出任何赛季发生过这样的事情。听着，他们裁掉了 clutch client 的乔丹·古德温

I'm trying to think. Yeah, I can't really come up with any seasons where that happened. Listen, they waived clutch client Jordan Goodwin

谁不错，谁

Who's good, who

在卢卡·东契奇招募后，他们签下了马库斯·斯玛特。我当时就觉得，他们现在是在挑衅勒布朗这边。这简直就是赤裸裸的挑衅。他们可以说他们想说的，但想想 Klutch 和勒布朗在湖人前七年拥有的控制力，甚至到了那种他们可以选中勒布朗儿子的地步——他大学时期每场比赛只打十分钟。现在一切都转了个圈，变成了全是卢卡、卢卡、卢卡，都是卢卡招募的人。

signed Marcus Smart after he was recruited by Luka Doncic. And I was like, they're now antagonizing the LeBron side. Like, this is this is flat out antagonizing. They can say what they want, but think about think about the hold that Klutch and LeBron had over the Lakers for those first seven years to the point that they drafted his son who had played ten minutes a game in college. And and now it's gone full circle where it's all Luka, Luka, Luka, Luca recruited.

我的意思是，你和马奥尼分析马库斯·斯玛特这件事的时候，我觉得你们分析得特别到位。指望他在这个年纪还能防守那些速度快的后卫，祝你好运吧。而且他也不太会投三分，这种球员类型跟拥有勒布朗和卢卡的球队非常不搭。我一点都不喜欢这笔操作。我宁愿留下乔丹·古德温。

I mean, you and Mahoney did, I thought you did the perfect breakdown of the Marcus Smart thing. To expect him to guard anyone with speed who's a guard at this point of his career, good luck. He also can't really shoot threes and is the kind of guy that's just a bad fit with a with a LeBron, Luca team. I didn't like the move at all. I would have rather had Jordan Goodwin.

说真的，我不认为让马库斯·斯马特和卢卡、勒布朗以及奥斯汀·里夫斯一起搭档对我来说有任何意义，因为我需要一个真正能防守NBA中那些优秀控卫的人。但你猜怎么着？完成这笔马库斯·斯马特的交易之后，我依然没有找到那个能防这些人的人。我现在这个人只能防那些体型更大的家伙，比如可以去对付扬尼斯的那种。

Like, for real. I don't think Marcus Smart with with Luca and LeBron and Austin Reeves makes sense to me at all, because I need somebody who can actually guard all of the awesome guards that are in the NBA. And guess what? I still don't have the person after I did this Marcus Smart move. I have the person who can guard bigger dudes who could be like, let's throw him against Giannis.

顺便说一句，这一点确实很重要。因为勒布朗不想去做那种硬扛硬的防守。卢卡只愿意在面对那些没什么威胁的对手时这么做。他们有Rui（河村勇辉）可以做这些，但他们还需要其他人。听着，马库斯·斯马特并不是这个人。

Which, by the way, which matters. Matters because LeBron doesn't wanna do that kind of banging. Luca only wants to do it against the guy who's a non threat. They Rui can do it, but they need someone else. And look, Marcus Smart

他根本不是马库斯·斯马特。

is not Marcus Smart.

嗯，他的三分球投射能力并不特别出色，但他至少在空位出手时，作为接球投篮的三分手来说还是够用的。我认为你其实是在赌他会进步，就像我们知道乔丹·古德温是什么样的球员。我喜欢乔丹·古德温。我说过，存在一种可能，就是他明年会比马库斯·斯马特表现更好。如果你是湖人队，你就必须下注，必须大胆押宝，我们打进西部决赛的希望本来就不大，所以必须在一些边缘球员上打出本垒打，才有可能实现目标。

Well, he's not a great three point shooter, but he's an o he's a good enough catch and shoot three point shooter on open looks, which I think he's bet you're betting on the up like, we know what Jordan Goodwin is. I like Jordan Goodwin. I said there's a universe where he's better than Marcus Smart next year. I think if you're the Lakers, you have to bet on you just have to make a a big bet that we're a long shot to win the West to to even make it plausible. We've gotta hit home runs on some things that on the fringes of, like, this is a chance at that.

你永远不可能从乔丹·古德温身上打出本垒打。

You're never gonna hit a Jordan Goodwin home run.

他的身体看起来已经有点撑不住了。我非常欣赏马库斯·斯马特。他曾是一名伟大的凯尔特人球员。有趣的是，他们会退役他的球衣号码吗？我认为如果三年后球队的表现非常糟糕，是有可能发生这种情况的。他虽然没有为凯尔特人赢得过总冠军，但在我的记忆中，他是凯尔特人历史上最受球迷喜爱的角色球员之一。

He just his body seems like it broke down to me. I love Marcus Smart. He was a great Celtic. There's an interesting would they retire his number case that I think if the season if you have a season three years from now that's going terribly, you could see it happen. He never won a title with them, but was one of the most beloved role player Celtics ever in my lifetime.

但我觉得他的身体已经无法承受长达九个月的赛季了。

Don't think his body can handle a nine month season anymore.

你看到他说他预计在波士顿会被嘘了吗？不，绝不会。我是说，我在推特上看到了。但我怀疑那一切都是假的。不过看起来不像是假的。

Did you see that he said he expects to get booed in Boston? No, never. I mean, saw, look, saw on Twitter. I suspect everything is fake. It didn't look fake to me.

那条引述看起来不像AI生成的，但我的反应是，兄弟，他们会起立鼓掌欢迎你的。不管你是不是湖人队的球员，当他在主场回归的时候，球迷们一定会为他疯狂的。

It didn't look like an AI generated quote, But my reaction was like, dude, they're gonna it's gonna be a standing ovation. Doesn't matter if you're on the Lakers. They the people are gonna go crazy for him when

我已经在日历上标记了8月20日。我把它写进了我的苹果日历里。你也用苹果日历吗？

he comes back. I have penciled in August 20. I put in my Apple calendar. You use an Apple calendar?