卢卡在洛杉矶的奇异之旅，纽约体育的干旱期，失落的NBA绰号，以及与马克斯·凯勒曼的大信箱

这就像愚人金。

It's like fools gold.

就像当年人们相信安东尼·约书亚的时候一样。

It was like when people were believing in Anthony Joshua.

嗯，约书亚，但等一下。

Well, Joshua but wait a minute.

约书亚赢过几场不错的比赛。

Joshua won some good fights.

当然。

Sure.

而且

And

德安德烈确实入选了全明星。

and And Deandre made the conference He did.

他确实做到了。

He did.

但这并不意味着你想让他当中锋。

That doesn't mean you want him as your center.

那你还能找谁呢？

But who do you get?

当时市场上有哪些人可选？

Who was available on the market?

他们用什么代价得到他？

And what'd they get him for?

七千八百万美元？

$78,000,000?

就像，谁也不知道。

Like, it was don't know.

我记得当时觉得，这算个不错的引援。

I remember thinking, a pretty good pickup.

他不是理想人选，但那时候市场上还有谁比他更好？

It's not the ideal guy, but like, who was better on the market at that time?

他们

They

并没有一个默认的中锋。

didn't It have a was a default center.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，他们本该在去年夏天就和勒布朗协商交易，想办法把他换走，换回一大笔资产，让他去别的球队。

I mean the move is they should have traded, they should have worked with LeBron to try to trade him over the summer last year, and try to get a whole bunch of stuff for him, put him in a different situation.

从一开始你就能看出事情会往这个方向发展。

You could kinda see where this was going from day one.

另一个选择本可以是交易里夫斯。

The other move could have been to trade Reeves.

但我不理解的是，我和湖人球迷聊过这件事，逗他们特别有意思。

But they the part I don't understand, I talked to Laker fans about this, and it's really fun to tease them.

他们说：‘不不，这不是关键的一年，这是过渡年，我们等着2027年有薪金空间的时候，那时候再行动。’

Where they're like, no no man, this wasn't the year, this is a transition year, we're looking at when we have cap space in '27, and we're gonna have cap it's down the road.

我只是觉得，如果我拥有联盟前六的球员之一，我绝不会浪费一年。

I just like, if I have one of the six best guys in the league, I'm never wasting a year.

我公开表达过这个观点。

I'm on record.

我曾经管理过一支球队，那时我才二十一岁左右。

I ran a team, I'm just mid-twenty one.

他现在已经二十七岁了。

He's 27.

密尔沃基的情况也一样，我觉得他们唯一说得通的做法是——虽然我完全不赞同交易利拉德，但这个决定至少有其合理性，因为他们不想浪费字母哥，毕竟他是历史上前二十的球员之一。

I'm never throwing away a Same case with Milwaukee, where I thought the only defensible thing with them, like I didn't like the Dame trade at all, but it was defensible, because it's like, we don't want to squander Giannis here, like we have one of the top 20 guys of all time,

我们得问问自己，我们是在给自己争取一线机会，还是真的认为做出这个决定后，我们就能成为顶级球队？

I we're not wasting a think you have to ask yourself, are we giving ourselves a puncher's chance, or are we really one of the best teams if we make this move?

但如果你拥有这样的球员，你总会觉得自己还有机会。

But if you have one of the guys, you always think you have a chance.

对。

Right.

我觉得这就是一线生机。

I think that's Punchers chance.

但即使有这种机会，如果我拥有这样的球员，我不确定是否愿意拿未来去赌这一线生机。

But a punch, but I don't know if I'm willing to mortgage the future for a puncher's chance, if I have one of those guys.

如果我和雷霆同处一个分区，我是湖人队，要凑齐八名球员才能击败雷霆，光靠三个人是赢不了的。

Well if I'm in the same conference with OKC, and I'm the Lakers, and it's so hard to put together, I need eight guys to beat OKC, I can't beat them with three.

我根本没在想雷霆。

I'm not even thinking about OKC.

但上次我们根本没想到马刺会这样。

Well, now we didn't know about San Antonio last time.

但现在我所在的分区有雷霆、马刺和约基奇。

But now I'm in the conference with OKC and San Antonio, Jokic.

这太难了。

It's a lot.

而以我现在的球队，我根本没有机会，所以我

And I have no chance with the team I have, so I'm

这就是在出售球队资产的核心所在。

that's selling pieces the point.

卢卡本应被视为与约基奇、文班亚马和亚历山大同级别的核心球员。

At this Luca is supposed to be a centerpiece on the level of Jokic and Wemby and SGA.

他不是，他不是。

He's not, He's not.

今年绝对不是。

He's Definitely not this year.

他比那些球员稍微差一点。

He's a half step below those guys.

他今年27岁，而且即使你

And he's 27 years old, and and But even if you

有糟糕的队友，你也应该能够

have bad teammates, you should be able to

做得足够好，让别人相信，是的，我们仍然拥有其中一位

be doing enough to convince people that, yeah, we still have one of

我认为他的队友没那么差。

those I think his teammates are that bad.

就像我们做的《The Ringer》100人排名，每个月我们都对球员进行排名。

Like we do the Ringer 100, where we pick the, we just rank them every month.

里夫斯排在前50名，勒布朗也在其中，他们有三位球员排在前51名之内。

Reeves is in the top 50, LeBron was in the, they have three Three of the top 51 guys

在那支球队里打球方式正确的人。

who plays the right way on that team.

我知道，但我只是说这

I know, but I'm just saying it's

里夫斯可不是他们没有的人，像奥斯汀·里夫斯，他打球的方式就很正确。

Reeves not like they don't have is like, Austin Reeves plays basketball the right way.

但温德霍尔这周在电视上说了这事，是吗？

But Windhor said that on TV this week about Did he?

只是当提到里夫斯和卢卡的时候？

Just when it's Reeves and Luka?

是的，是的，我看了那个。

Oh yeah, yeah, I saw that.

这是个好观点。

It's a good point.

我跟一些聊过湖人队的人说过这一点。

I've said it to people that I talked to about the Lakers with.

当是他们两个人的时候，配合很好。

It's like, when it's the two of them, there's chemistry.

当把勒布朗加进去时，就开始出问题了，但是

When you put LeBron in, it just starts But

我觉得勒布朗一直打得非常正确。

I to think feel LeBron like has been playing exactly the right way.

他知道该怎么打，但他年纪大了。

He knows how, but he's old.

我不觉得勒布朗对吧？

I don't think LeBron Right?

勒布朗现在就像霍金斯。

Lebron's like Hopkins now.

他非常清楚自己能做什么、不能做什么。

He knows exactly what he can and can't do.

他是霍金斯，我喜欢你在这里，因为我喜欢讲拳击笑话。

He's Hopkins, I like when you're he here because I do boxing jokes.

是的。

Yeah.

他就像说，我要把这场比赛变成六回合的。

He's like, I can I'm gonna basically make this a six round fight.

我要放弃前六回合，然后使出绞杀技。

I'm gonna throw away the first six rounds, and then do the bow constrictor thing.

对。

Right.

而勒布朗则说，我能做这三件事。

And LeBron's like, I can do these three things.

我就只会这些。

That's all I can do.

我可以冲起来快攻，可以后撤步三分，也可以低位单打。

I can do head of steam, fast break, I can do step back threes, and I can post up.

里奇很喜欢勒布朗扮演挡拆顺下的角色，就像卡尔·马龙那样。

Rich loves the idea of LeBron playing as the roller, like as being Karl Malone.

我也很喜欢这个想法。

I love that idea too.

没错。

Right.

一个更聪明的卡尔·马龙，对吧？

A smarter Karl Malone, right?

他的体型是一样的。

He's the same size.

你知道的，他身高六英尺八英寸，体重二百六十磅，还能投外线。

He's like, you know, he's six, eight, nine, two sixty, and he could shoot from the outside.

这太难了。

It's so tough.

我知道你已经和里奇谈过这件事了，我们三个人也都讨论过。

I know you've talked to Rich about this, and we've the three of us have talked about it.

要告诉一个在自己领域里堪称史上最佳的人，说你现在得变成这样，实在太难了。

It's so tough to take somebody who is one of the best of all time at what they did, and then tell them, now you're this.

但我说的不是卡尔·马龙那种情况。

But this is not like, I'm saying Karl Malone.

对。

Right.

有没有那么一刻，他就是历史上最伟大的大前锋？

This is like, at one point, is he the best power forward who ever lived?

你能成为那样的人吗？

Like, can you be that guy?

是的。

Yeah.

这位球员就是德安德烈·艾顿最近关于克林特·卡佩拉的一段话。

That guy would be and Deandre Ayton had a quote recently about Clint Capella.

他不想成为那样的人。

He doesn't want to be that.

是的。

Yeah.

里奇·保罗经常跟我们谈到要在自己的角色中成为主角。

And Rich Paul talks all the time on our part about starring in your role.

是的。

Yeah.

如果德安德烈愿意在自己的角色中担当主角，而勒布朗也愿意在自己的角色中担当主角，但话说回来，比尔，当你看整个阵容时，里夫斯才是那个人。

If DeAndre was willing to star in his role, and LeBron was willing to star in his But all that said, Bill, when you look at this entire roster, Reeves is the guy.

观察他在每一回合中，攻防两端的表现。

Watch him on every possession, both ends of the floor.

是的。

Yeah.

他不是个出色的防守者，但他确实在打防守。

He's not a great defender, but he's playing defense.

他很聪明。

He's smart.

他总在寻找正确的选择，而且他确实很出色。

He he's looking to make the right play, and he's just good.

他不像那种六英尺八英寸、能跳得高耸入云的球员，但他是个非常优秀的球员。

He's just not like, you know, six, eight, and not like he can't jump out of the gym, you know, but like he's a really good player.

是的。

Yeah.

我在想他们会不会把他当作交易吉安尼斯的筹码。

I was wondering if they're gonna put him on the table for Giannis.

我只是好奇洛杉矶整体的情况，因为道奇队的老板收购了这支球队。

And I'm just wondering what's happening with LA in general, because they the Dodgers owner bought the team.

他们请来了隆·罗森担任业务总裁。

They brought Lon Rosen over as president of business.

隆·罗森，他一生的偶像都是魔术师约翰逊。

Lon Rosen, his lifetime guy is Magic Johnson.

魔术师约翰逊曾经和帕林卡有过那档子事，他离开了，但现在看起来魔术师并没有参与其中，而且他们之间也没什么情谊可言。

Magic Johnson had that thing with Palinka where he left, and it doesn't seem like Magic's involved, but there's no love loss with that.

总的来说，感觉我们正朝着后帕林卡时代迈进，就像是：感谢你做的卢卡交易。

And in general, it just feels like we're moving toward some sort of post Palenka universe, where it'd be like, thanks for the Luka trade.

安德鲁·弗里德曼 somehow 参与其中。

Andrew, Andrew Freedman's involved somehow.

是的，而且

Yeah, and

他就是那个穿西装的人，这才是道奇队陷入这种境地的真正原因。

he Who's like the suit, that's the real reason the Dodgers are in this position.

没错。

Right.

这是他们做的第一件事。

It's the first thing they do.

当年红袜队聘请比尔·詹姆斯的时候，大概是2002年左右，我记得我正在做《Around the Horn》节目，当时我就说他们未来十年会赢三次世界大赛。

When the Red Sox hired Bill James back in o two or whatever, remember I was doing Around the Horn, I said they're gonna win three of the next 10 world series.

到了第十年，他们真的做到了。

Year 10 they Wish

我本来可以相信这一点的。

I could have believed that.

在第十年，他们赢下了第三个冠军。

In year 10 they won the third one.

你当时要是告诉我就好了，因为我根本没想到他们会赢一次。

Wish you had told me that, because I never thought they're gonna win one.

这毁了我的生活，因为他们当时就像那样——如果你请来最聪明的人，又有钱，用钱玩金钱球，对其他人来说就很难了，但可能

Ruined my life, because they were just out at Like that's If you get the smartest guy and you have money and you're playing money ball with money, it's hard for everyone But could

也可能是湖人队，这就是为什么现在大家都这么害怕。

be the Lakers though, that's why everybody's so scared right now.

是的，因为道奇队就是这样。

Yes, because that's what the Dodgers are.

他们一聘用弗里德曼，他就建立了一套体系，甚至都不用亲自运营，是的。

And as soon as they hired Friedman, who by the way, just put a system in place, and then didn't even have to run it really, Yeah.

所以当我看到他参与湖人队的事情时，我心想

So when I see him involved with the Lakers, I'm

哎呀，不好了。

like, uh-oh.

背后有资源支持，比如智能分析和数据分析，你知道的，谁也不知道他们会引进谁，但显然会有一些变化。

Well it's resources behind the scenes of just intelligence and analytics, and you know, like who knows who they're gonna bring in, but it's clearly there's gonna be some sort of shift.

他们过去以节俭著称，我不想说他们小气，但我觉得他们确实不太挥霍。

And they were famously, I don't wanna say cheap, but I don't think they were extravagant behind the scenes.

他们是由杰里·巴斯的孩子们管理的。

They were run by Jerry Buss's kids.

这是一门家族生意。

It's a family business.

是的。

Yeah.

无论好坏，我认为，如果勒布朗没有决定我想住在洛杉矶，他们只是凑齐了所有这些奇怪的乐透签。

For better and worse, and it was, I think, if LeBron just doesn't decide I wanna live in LA, what They just sort of had all these weird lottery picks assembled.

朗佐·鲍尔、朱利叶斯·兰德尔、布兰登·英格拉姆。

Lonzo Ball, Julius Randle, Brandon Ingram.

是的。

Yeah.

他们一直保持着新鲜感

They kept kept freshly

与每届选秀中的球队。

with teams in every draft.

是的。

Yeah.

而且可能还会增加一些东西。

And probably would have added some stuff.

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是什么让篮球如此令人兴奋？

What makes basketball so exciting?

球场上所有卓越的技艺。

All the superior skill on the court.

这一直是我整个生命中的情况。

This has been the case my whole life.

最疯狂的事情是，文班亚马，他每场比赛都在做的一些事，每场都有两三个文班亚马时刻，简直让我觉得我以前从没见过这样的场面。

The craziest thing, I mean, Wemby, stuff he's doing every game, there's two, three Wemby moments a game where like, I don't know if I've ever seen that.

对我来说，最棒的是当他做掩护后突破，有人给他一个空接，他接球后不跳就能直接扣篮。

The number one thing for me is when he does the screen and roll, he's going to the basket, somebody throws him an alley oop, and he just catches it and dunks it without jumping.

这算是一个空接，但又不是真正的空接，更像是一个‘空’接。

It's an alley oop, but it's not an oop, it's just kind of an alley.

每次他这么做，我都会想，我绝对100%从来没看过这种场面了。

And every time he does it, I'm like, I've definitely 100% never seen that anymore.

这是一次超凡的配合。

It's a superior play.

卓越的球技并不仅仅存在于NBA。

Superior plays aren't just for the NBA though.

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It's the beer of Max Kellerman, he just told me that.

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我想跟你快速聊聊纽约的体育。

I wanna talk New York sports quick with you.

好。

Good.

十五年没有冠军了，除非你把自由队算上，我想你也可以算。

Fifteen years without a title, unless you count the liberty, which I guess you can.

是的，当然。

Yeah, sure.

但说实话吧。

But no, let's just be honest.

当你谈论每个主要运动中的两支球队时

When you're talking about two teams in every major sport

我们不是在谈冰球，抱歉。

We're not talking about hockey, I'm sorry.

比如，几年前我因为说全国只有三大主流体育项目而惹怒了很多NHL球迷。

Like, the NHL, people got really mad at me a bunch of years ago, because I said there's three major sports in the country.

顺便说一句，我可是拳击的铁粉，对吧？

And like, by the way, I'm big in boxing, right?

是的。

Yeah.

我并没有假装拳击现在的受欢迎程度比实际更高。

I'm not pretending that boxing is more popular than it is at the moment.

我支持祖法的原因是我希望它能变得更受欢迎。

The reason I'm with Zufa is because I want it to be more popular.

冰球在某些圈子里很流行，但它并不属于四大主流体育之一，真正的三大是。

Hockey is a popular sport in certain circles, it is not one of There's not a big four, there's a big three.

棒球、篮球和橄榄球。

It's baseball, basketball, and football.

我觉得

And I think

是的，我甚至会说第四大运动是大学橄榄球。

Yeah, would even say the fourth one would be college football.

对，对，我的意思是，在

Yeah, yeah, mean, in

在纽约，我觉得你说得对，在纽约，第四大运动是

New York, I think you're right, in New York, the fourth one

不，游骑兵队相当不错。

No, the Rangers are pretty good.

游骑兵队，

The Rangers,

是的，我也这么认为。

yeah, I would say so.

我会说游骑兵队。

I'd say the Rangers.

但游骑兵队在2014年输给了国王队，无缘冠军赛。

But the Rangers, they lost the cup finals in '14 and the Kings.

他们进入过三次分区决赛，这是你们取得过的最大成功。

They've been in three conference finals ever That's the most success you've had

但多兰过去常以尼克斯队为荣，是的。

in the But Dolan used to hang his hat on when the Knicks Yeah.

所以你还有喷气机队和巨人队。

So you have Jets and Giants.

巨人队赢得了最近一次冠军，但自2011年以来，这两支橄榄球队都没进过分区决赛。

Giants won the last title, but no conference finals for either football team since '11.

尼克斯队自1994年以来就没进过总决赛，但他们去年打进了东部决赛。

Knicks have made the finals since '94, they made the Eastern Conference finals last year.

篮网队，2003年。

Nets, 2003.

大都会队，今年二月打进了国联冠军赛，洋基队自2009年以来只拿过一次冠军，岛民队在2010年进过分区决赛。

Mets, February, they made the NLCS in '24, and the Yankees have one title since o nine, Islanders 2010 in conference finals.

如果我告诉你，2010年你在干什么，你当时在体育国度吗？

If I had told you, so what were you doing in 2010, you're in Sports Nation?

你当时是做什么工作的？

What was your job?

你在ESPN，你在做些什么。

You're at ESPN, you're doing something.

我当时可能在Whatever you

I was doing, I may have been at Whatever you

你当时在做的事。

were doing.

我可能在CNN和ESPN广播电台工作。

I may have been at CNN and ESPN radio.

2009年洋基队赢得了世界大赛，我当时对你说，未来十六年纽约只会再有一个冠军，而且不会是洋基队。

So Yankees win the world series in o nine, and I say to you in o nine, there's only gonna be one more New York title for the next sixteen years, and it won't be the Yankees.

如果你当时听到这话，会有什么反应？

What would your reaction have been to that?

该死。

God damn it.

我可能根本不会，或者说，我不会不相信你。

I wouldn't have even, necessarily I wouldn't have not believed you.

在现代体育中，纽约面临着许多不利因素。

There are lots of things working against New York in the modern age in sports.

第一，这座城市足够大，可以支持两支球队。

Number one, the city's big enough to support two teams.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

当人们谈论薪资帽和资源时，纽约作为一个巨型都市，基本上在每项运动中都能支撑两支球队。

Like that's the When people talk about salary caps and resources, New York is such a megalopolis, right, that it supports two teams in every sport basically.

所以你的资源被稀释了。

So you've diluted the resources.

波士顿是个小得多的城市，它的市场覆盖从康涅狄格州北部到缅因州，而且不与任何人分享。

Boston, which is a much smaller city, has the entire market from Northern Connecticut up to Maine, and doesn't share it with anyone.

他们拥有可比的资源。

They have comparable resources.

这是教士队的论点。

This is the Padres argument.

他们是圣地亚哥唯一的球队。

It's the only team in San Diego.

他们的收入超过五亿美元。

They do like over $500,000,000 in revenue.

他们没有任何竞争对手。

They're not competing against anyone.

没有竞争对手。

Not competing.

那纽约呢？比如洛杉矶，对吧？

And New York is like, so take Los Angeles, right?

在洛杉矶，做体育广播的一个难题是，当东海岸的球队表现糟糕时，体育广播依然非常火爆。

In Los Angeles, like one of the tough things about doing radio in Los Angeles, sports radio, is when the team sucks on the East Coast, sports radio is as hot as ever.

人们很生气。

People are pissed.

他们喜欢愤怒的体育广播，就是这种愤怒的体育广播。

What they like, they like angry, it's angry sports radio.

就是愤怒的体育广播。

It's angry sports radio.

波士顿体育广播最好的事情，就是德雷克·梅伊在季后赛中表现糟糕。

Boston sports radio, the best thing that ever happened was Drake May sucking in the playoffs.

这简直是发生过的最棒的事。

It like the best thing That that ever happened

听起来太疯狂了。

sounds to the crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

他打得好吗？

Is he good?

他有这个能力吗？

Does he have it?

那是他们的

That's their

嘿，这小子个子够高，能在NFL取得成功。

Hey, piece of dunk flute, he's tall enough to succeed in the NFL.

对吧？

Right?

像这样的优势足以让你脱颖而出

Like that could carry you

从塔图姆对布朗的比赛来看，这就是波士顿体育的天堂。

from Tatum versus Brown is Boston sports nirvana.

哦，他们就只谈这个。

Oh, That's all they talk about.

在西海岸的洛杉矶，如果你表现糟糕，人们就会去海滩。

It's on bright so so on the West Coast in LA, if you suck, they'll go to the beach.

他们不再需要你了。

They don't need they don't need you anymore.

对吧？

Right?

这里就只有道奇队和湖人队。

Really just Dodgers Lakers here.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们以前还稍微踢点足球。

Then they use USA used to play football a little bit.

当他们表现好的时候，然后

When they're good and then

一点点

A little

吧。

bit.

但我的意思是，在波士顿，而纽约则带有一点洛杉矶的影子，不是说他们不重视体育，而是纽约有华尔街和百老汇，有太多事情在发生。

But what I mean is, but in Boston, but New York has a bit of LA in it, not in the sense that they don't care a lot about sports, but New York is Wall Street and Broadway, and there's a lot of stuff going on.

我感觉在波士顿，体育就是他们唯一的一支球队。

I get the sense that in Boston, sports, they're one sports team.

他们不会因为其他因素而分裂。

They're not divided by anything.

对波士顿人来说，红袜队的重要性远超他们生活中其他一切，而纽约人对他们的球队并没有这种程度的专注。

It's not the Red Sox and the is more important to them relative to everything else in their lives than the one sports team is in New York.

我觉得费城也是这样。

I think Philly's like that too.

费城也是这样。

Philly's like that too.

芝加哥有公牛队，我想是公牛队吧，还有小熊队？

Chicago with the Bears, I think is Bears, Cubs probably?

是的，大概是这样。

Yeah, probably.

尽管他们在某些运动项目上规模足够大，可以支持两支队伍。

Even though they they're large enough to support two teams in certain sports.

我一直以来的理论是，天气越糟糕，球队就越重要。

My theory with this was always the worse the weather, the more the teams matter.

没错。

Right.

你去加拿大就会发现，冰球简直就是生活本身。

Which is then you go to Canada where it's like, hockey is like That's life or it.

我们赢得了金牌，但一天之内就变成了政治事件。

Death for Like we won the gold medal, and within a day it turned into a political thing.

没人

No one

而且说实话，如果他们输掉了金牌，五个月后人们还会谈论这件事。

can And candidly, they lost the gold medal, they're gonna be talking about it five months from now.

没错。

Right.

天啊。

Like, oh my god.

所以这就是为什么我们没有让麦克戴维德在加时赛一开始上场？为什么他在加时赛仅33秒后就被换下了？

So that's Why didn't we keep McDavid out for the first why did we take him out after thirty three seconds in the OT?

老兄，在加拿大看体育中心真是太搞笑了。

Dude, it's so funny being in Canada and watching SportsCentra.

对吧？

Right?

如果你身在加拿大，那简直就是个颠倒的世界。

If you're in then and it's it's Bizarro land.

在那个荒诞的平行宇宙里，冰球是头条，而NFL却被埋没了。

The the arb and the e reversed, And in that little bizarro universe, hockey leads and the NFL is buried.

对吧？

Right?

全是NHL，NHL，NHL，NFL和MLB只是小小的点缀。

It's NHL, NHL, NHL, little NFL, little MLB.

一点点篮球。

Tiny bit of basketball.

就是这样，你知道的，反常的世界。

It's exactly it's you know, bizarro land.

这就是纽约体育的一个特点。

So that's one thing about New York sports.

另一个是，纽约有着巨大的压力，要求每年都要争取进入季后赛，因为能赚很多钱。

The other is, there is enormous pressure in New York to try to make the playoffs every year, because there's a lot of money to be made.

很多时候，如果这是动力，比如帕特里克·尤因时代，尼克斯只要打进季后赛第二轮，就能赚一大笔钱。

And a lot of times if that's the incentive, you know, the Patrick Ewing years, if the Knicks made the second round of the playoffs, made a ton of money.

是的。

Yeah.

保持竞争力就行。

Just stay competitive.

是的，但这和摆烂有关，你有没有考虑过，从战略角度出发，今年或许该等一等，别去交易那些会透支未来的老将，而那些老将本身也没那么出色，比如米哈伊尔·布里奇斯？

Yeah, but, and this ties into tanking, but is it ever in your strategic best interest to maybe wait this year, don't trade for that veteran where you're mortgaging the future, and that veteran's not even that good to begin Mikhail Bridges?

是的，我的意思是米哈伊尔·布里奇斯，他只有10%的命中率，尼克斯队确实挺有意思。

Yeah, I mean Mikhail Bridges, he was 10%, like it's The Knicks are interesting.

他们打造了一支球队，只要每个人都能完美执行自己的任务，再加上对手运气不好、伤病频发，就有可能赢得总冠军，但这是唯一的途径。

They've created a team where if everyone does their job just right, and you get a little lucky with injuries on the other team, you could win a championship, but that's the only way.

他们还没达到

They're not at

去年就是这种情况。

like That's what happened last year.

约什·哈特的投篮必须比现在更好。

Josh Hart has to shoot it better than he does.

米哈伊尔·布里奇斯必须比现在更具身体对抗性。

Mikhail Bridges has to be a little more physical than he is.

卡尔·安东尼·唐斯必须在两个月内持续保持攻防两端的最佳状态，不能有丝毫松懈。

Carl Anthony Towns has to maintain his best play on both sides of the ball for two months without stop.

你知道，这简直是在强人所难。

You know, like it's you're just asking.

他们没有任何犯错的余地，甚至可能连那都没有。

They have no margin for error and maybe not even then.

那洋基队的借口是什么？

So what's the Yankees excuse?

好吧。

Well, okay.

这适用于所有球队。

So this goes for all the teams.

你可以想想普罗霍罗夫收购篮网队的时候。

Like, you can think about when Prokhorov bought the Nets.

那是他做的第一件事。

It's the first thing he did.

他堆砌了足够的天赋来打造一支王朝球队，或者像波士顿那样拥有一支强队，对吧？

He jammed in enough talent to be He built your dynasty in Or if you have one in Boston, right?

对。

Right.

他立即引进了足够的 talent。

He immediately acquired enough talent.

他们应该能打进季后赛第二轮。

They ought to make the second round of the playoffs.

也就这样了。

That's about it.

赢不了冠军，但他们会打进季后赛第二轮。

Ain't gonna win a championship, but they'll make the second round of the playoffs.

在那个地区，有着巨大的压力，必须保持竞争力。

There's this enormous pressure in that neck of the woods to just be competitive.

对于洋基队来说，情况也一样。

And in the Yankees case, same thing.

他们不能任何一年故意不打进季后赛，对吧？

They can't ever take a year off without making the playoffs, not intentionally, right?

他们每年都必须保持竞争力。

They have to be competitive every year.

他们必须卖票，而且他们非常在意电视收视率，因为他们在和大都会队竞争，但他们的老板在体育界标准下算比较穷的，他花在球队上的收入比例连前十都排不上。

They have to sell the boxes and they have to, they have this, you know, the TV, you know, they care about their TV ratings and they are competing with the Mets, but their owner's kind of poor by the standards sports owner, and the percentage of revenue he spends on the team is not top 10.

我不会说他们精于商业运作。

I wouldn't say they're business savvy.

洋基队。

The Yankees.

道奇队把目光投向了东亚，因为他们九十年代就有了一些明星球员，所以早就有这种意识；但现在他们把这看作是他们的第二个收入来源、第二座城市。

I think the Dodgers looked at the Far East, and they had it because they had some other stars in the nineties and February, so they had a sense, But they now looked at this as like, this is our second revenue stream in our second city.

对吧？

Right?

我们现在把所有东西都卖到海外，同时在加利福尼亚拥有一个统治级的棒球队，钱根本不是问题。

That now we we're selling everything overseas, and we're selling all this stuff here with a dominant baseball team in California, and money's no object.

比如，大谷翔平带动了山本由伸。

Like, you like, Ohtani leads to Yamamoto.

当然。

Of course.

现在他们成了任何可能来美国的日本棒球明星的首选目的地。

They they it now they're just like, they're the first stop for any Japanese baseball star who might be coming over.

他们都会想为道奇队打球。

They're gonna wanna play for the Dodgers.

孩子们长大后会梦想着为道奇队效力，因为他们已经悟出了洋基队本该早就明白的道理。

The kids are gonna grow up dreaming to play for the like they figured out something the Yankees probably should have figured out.

洋基队也曾尝试过，比如松井秀喜那样的球员。

Not for And they tried, you had Matsui and people like that.

这也不是第一次了。

Not for the first time.

道奇队，我的意思是，虽然情况大不相同，但过去道奇队也曾是一个无人理解的未开发人才宝库，只要从这个人才池里选出一支全明星队，我们就能成功。

The Dodgers, I mean this is very different circumstances, but the Dodgers once upon a time, was an untapped pool of talent that no one understood, hey, if we just get the all star team from this pool of talent, we'll we'll just Yeah.

真的会很厉害。

Be really Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

黑人联盟。

The Negro leagues.

是的。

Yeah.

当时棒球界一半的优秀球员都被排除在大联盟之外，而道奇队基本上就像是——如果你有个时间机器，你会想：你知道吗？

Half the good players in in baseball were excluded from the major leagues, and the Dodgers basically Imagine if you had a time machine, and you're like, You know what?

如果我是当时一支表现很差的球队的总经理，我会直接去黑人联盟，告诉所有人去他妈的。

If I was the GM of a team that really sucked back then, I just go to the Negro Leagues, I tell everyone to, you know, go fuck themselves.

我要组建一支黑人联盟全明星队，然后把你们所有人打得落花流水，因为你们这些蠢货。

I'm gonna put together a Negro League all star team, and we're gonna beat everybody because you idiots.

因为那些人才都没被利用。

Like, because none of the talents

但那时候每个人都这么想。

that I do liberate roll over system everyone was back then though.

他们觉得没人会来看比赛。

They were like, people won't come out.

而且你说，你知道吗？

And it's like, you know what?

人们喜欢赢。

People like winning.

我不

I don't

管这是哪个年代。

care what decade this is.

当然。

Course.

他们在没人明白发生了什么之前，就组建了一支黑人联盟全明星队。

They went out and got, they they put together like a Negro League all star team before anyone knew what was going on.

是的。

Yeah.

他们得到了

They got

坎皮、纽科姆和罗宾逊。

Campy and Newcomb and Robinson.

得了吧。

Come on.

你就有了两个人。

Just you got you got two guys.

你有二垒手和捕手，直到今天他们仍被认为是各自位置上史上最伟大的球员。

You got a second baseman and a catcher who are in the conversation for the greatest of all time at their position to this day.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，你不需要游击手，那里已经有一位名人堂球员了。

And you know, you didn't have to have a shortstop, you had a hall of famer there.

你不需要一垒手，那里也有一位名人堂球员。

You didn't need a first baseman, you had a hall of famer there.

也不需要中外野手，你同样有一位名人堂球员。

Or a center fielder, you had a hall of famer.

所以无论你需要哪里的帮助，你都能找来一个堪称史上最佳的球员。

So like wherever you needed help, you went out and got like a guy who is in the conversation for best ever.

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

然后你还看到红袜队把人赶下场。

And then you have the Red Sox kicking the guys off the field.

对。

Right.

这就导致了，你知道的。

Which led to, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

加油啊，波士顿，是的。

Good good going Boston and Yeah.

新的是，太棒了。

New That's great.

真难啊。

Tough one.

所以洋基队要退役西西的号码吗？

So the Yankees are retiring Cici's number?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的朋友杰科，一个一辈子的铁杆洋基队球迷，他说只有2号、3号、4号、5号、7号、8号、15号、16号、32号和42号才该被退役。

My buddy Jacko, lifelong diehard Yankee fan, he said the only Yankee numbers that should be retired are two, three, four, five, seven, eight, fifteen, sixteen, 32, and 42.

那就是德里克·杰特，

So that would be Derek Jeter,

贝比·鲁斯、卢·格里克、乔·迪马吉奥，他还说了谁？

Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, who else did he say?

曼特尔。

Mantle.

曼特尔。

Mantle.

迪基·巴腊组合，八号球衣。

The Dickie Barra combo at number Sure, at eight.

瑟曼·芒森，嗯。

Thurman Munson, Uh-huh.

怀蒂·福特、埃尔斯顿·霍华德、里维拉，他就列到这儿了。

Whetty Ford, Elston Howard, and Rivera, and he's done.

所以这意味着，他认为不该退役的球衣是比利·马丁、乔·托瑞。

So that means, who he thinks doesn't, shouldn't be retired, Billy Martin won, Joe Torres

我不同意这个观点。

I disagree with that.

马里斯，我也不同意。

Maris I disagree

还有鲁西托、佩萨多、奥尼尔、马蒂宁利、斯坦格尔、杰克逊、佩蒂特、古德里、伯尼和塞塞。

with Rusito, Pesado, O'Neil, Mattingly, Stengel, Jackson, Pettit, Guidry, Bernie, and Cece.

关键问题是，多少个号码才算太多，而棒球界通常如果球员入选名人堂，就会退役他的号码。

It's the question of how many numbers are too many, and some of it gets tied into in baseball if the guy makes the hall of fame usually retire his number.

这是

This is

关于这些，我想说点什么。

what I would say about some of that.

你可以说波萨达吧？

You could argue Posada, right?

我觉得其他人确实有理由退役他们的号码。

I I would say the others are good arguments to retire the number.

九十年代末的洋基队，1998年的洋基队无疑是历史上最伟大的棒球队。

The late nineties Yankee, the 1998 Yankees are easily the greatest baseball team of all time.

我觉得

I think

伯尼的，我感到很惊讶的是

Bernie's, I was surprised to

看到一个成长经历。

see an upbringing.

我正要去那里。

I'm going there.

这正是我要去的地方。

That's exactly where I'm going.

伯尼必须在名单上。

Bernie has to be on there.

伯尼·威廉姆斯，就像每个人都知道米基·曼特尔的传奇一样，人人都知道。

Bernie Williams, like everyone knows the legend of Mickey Mantle, everyone.

我们都老得不行了。

We're old as fuck.

比如，在我们这一代，每个人都知道米基·曼特尔。

Like I don't know, in our generation everyone knew Mickey Mantle.

伯尼·威廉姆斯是左右开弓的球员，别跟我谈防守数据那些玩意儿，我只是在陈述事实。

Bernie Williams was the switch Okay, spare me the defensive metric arguments, everything, I'm just stating facts.

他是左右开弓、赢得金手套、获得打击王的球员，常年打出二三十支本垒打，可能是棒球史上最好的击球手，最好的接触型击球手，兼具强大力量，长期担任中线位置，对吧？

He was the switch hitting, gold glove winning, batting champion who used to hit between twenty and thirty home runs, probably the best hitter in baseball, the best contact hitter in baseball with plus power, who played an up the middle position for years, right?

当然，在那场对话中。

Certainly in that conversation.

但慢慢地

But slowly

意识到把钱花在球场中央而不是两侧是多么有价值。

realized how valuable it was to spend actually your money in the middle of the field instead of the sides.

伯尼·威廉姆斯，当你刚出道时，那是夜晚。你看，你得明白，在纽约，洋基队的头号公敌——这可能因为某种原因改变了，嗯，不是因为某种原因，而是当红袜队开始赢得世界大赛后，大概就变了。

Bernie Williams, if you When he was coming up, it was night I See, you have to understand, in New York, public enemy number one for the Yankees, this may have changed for some reason after Well, not for some reason, when the Red Sox started winning the World Series, it's probably changed.

但当我还是个孩子的时候，洋基队球迷的头号公敌是大都会队。

But when I was a kid, public enemy number one for a Yankees fan were the Mets.

是的。

Yeah.

红袜队是第二号。

Red Sox were two.

那时候真的有

There was a really

他们每年都能赢我们，那我们为什么还要在意呢

Well they beat us every year, like why would we even be

但也是因为大都会队变强了。

the But also that because the Mets got good.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

那是古德和草莓的时代，那时候

It was the Good and Strawberry run, where

天哪，糟糕了。

it was like, oh shit.

他们比

They were bigger than

现在纽约的小镇了。

It's the like New York's town now.

他们卖出了更多的票，吸引了更多关注，学校里的孩子们都戴着大都会队的帽子，作为洋基队球迷简直太痛苦了

They sold more tickets, they had more interest, the kids in school were wearing Mets caps, it was miserable as a

我是洋基队球迷，那时候我在康涅狄格州上高中。

Yankees I was in Connecticut for high school during that.

大都会队接管了一切。

The Mets took over.

作为洋基队球迷，那真是痛苦至极。

Miserable for a Yankees fan.

是的。

Yeah.

我们恨透了。

We hated it.

顺便说一句，看台区有个口号，我从小就是看台区的铁杆球迷，经常待在那儿。

By the way, there was a chant in the bleachers, I was a bleacher creature growing up, I was up in there all the time.

这个口号的结尾总是对右外野手进行非常刻薄的嘲讽。

And it was at the end of this chant where it was always, you know, a very insulting thing toward the right fielder.

在 chants 的结尾，会先唱‘大都会真烂，红袜真烂’，然后再说他们正在对阵的球队，比如对手是游骑兵，就唱‘游骑兵真烂’。

And at the end of the chant, would start with Mets suck, Red Sox suck, then you would say whoever they were playing, so let's say it was the Rangers, the Rangers suck.

假设鲁本·塞拉是游骑兵队的右外野手。

Let's say Ruben Sierra was in right field for the Rangers.

你会喊‘塞拉真烂’。

You'd say Root Sierra sucks.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你会说‘包厢座位真烂’。

Then you would say Box seats suck.

接着你会说‘那边’，也就是看台另一侧的座位真烂。

Then you would say, That side, in other words, the other side of the aisle of the bleachers suck.

是的。

Yeah.

任何当年在洋基体育场看过比赛的人，看到这一幕都会说：‘天啊，真不敢相信还有人记得这个。’

And then anyone who's watching this who happened to be in Yankee Stadium, those years would be like, Oh my God, I can't believe someone remembers this.

然后你会转过身，用手这么转一圈，说：你们全都 sucks。

And then you would turn around, spin around with your hand like this, and say, You all suck.

明白吗？

Okay?

但最先出现的是大都会队，其他都是后来的。

But what came first was the Mets before anything.

大都会队真烂。

Mets suck.

洋基队球迷讨厌大都会队。

Yankees fans hated the Mets.

所以到了1987年，洋基队投手阵容崩溃，表现糟糕透顶，而大都会队虽然1987年没夺冠，但1986年赢了，1988年拥有史上最强投手阵容之一，接下来十年都表现强劲。

So Bill, by 1987 there's no pitching, they're just miserable, and the Mets are They didn't win in 'eighty seven, but they won in 'eighty six, they had one of the great pitching staffs of all time in 'eighty eight, and were gonna be good for like ten years.

我会在洋基队杂志上看到，洋基队签下了一位波多黎各少年，当时他才十六七岁，据说会成为出色的开路打者。

And I would read in like, Yankees magazine, Yankees signed this Puerto Rican kid, who's like, he was like 16, or 17, and he's gonna be a great lead off hitter.

他预计能打出三成打击率，盗垒五十次。

He's gonna hit like 300, he's gonna steal 50 bases.

伯尼。

Bernie.

威廉姆斯。

Williams.

但结果比那还要好。

But it turned out better than that.

他是个左右开弓的怪物，每年打击率都达到300，领跑联盟打击榜，兼具长打能力和关键一击。

He was the switch hitting monster who hit 300 every year and led the league in hitting, and hit for power and hit dramatic.

他是我们最好的季后赛球员。

He was the best postseason player we had.

而且就像你说的，你

And like it was Well, you

漏掉了红袜队以为他们签下了他这一部分。

left out the part the Red Sox thought they had him.

天啊。

Oh my God.

那段时间对我来说太痛苦了。

It was miserable for me that whole time.

对我们来说更痛苦，因为这感觉就像我们要这样跟洋基队耗下去。

Was more miserable for us because it was like, this is how we're gonna stick with the Yankees.

我们要抢走他们的一个球员。

We're gonna take one of their guys.

而他在最后一刻戏弄了他们，狠狠地戏弄了他们。

And he Dick teased them Dick teased them in the eleventh hour.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

他又回到了洋基队。

Came back to the Yankees.

从那以后，每次他去芬威球场都会被嘘。

So he got booed every time at Fenway after that.

但有他担任第四棒，就像米基·曼特尔希望的那样，他真的很出色。

But he was so and like, to have that guy hitting cleanup like Mickey Mantle wants to He was great.

在我看来，他是赢四。

To me he's Win four

世界大赛冠军，他的号码应该被退役。

world series, his number should be retired.

加特，虽然我非常喜欢加特，但我真看不出有什么理由。

Gator, as much as I love the Gator, I I can't see it.

摸摸它。

Pet it.

嗯，我倒是可以争辩一下。

Well, I could I could argue.

摸摸它。

Pet it

你有两百多场胜利呢？

with two two hundred plus wins for you?

五年前，甚至可能更久，ESPN.com上发表过一篇非常好的文章，我记不清作者是谁了，文章为佩蒂特争取进入名人堂提供了非常有说服力的理由。

There was a really good article, I I can't remember who wrote it, on espn.com five years ago, maybe more, maybe ten years ago at this point, making a hall of fame argument for Pettit that is so convincing.

这个论点非常有说服力。

It is very persuasive.

他说，如果你看看在这段时间内出生并在大联盟投球的所有人，对吧。

He's saying if you look at everyone born between this year and this year who pitched in the major leagues Right.

好吧，他是在兴奋剂时代打球的。

Okay, he's pitching through a steroid era

耐久性赢得比赛，季后赛表现更重要。

Durability wins, playoff stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

他只是浅尝辄止。

He dabbles.

好吧。

All Right.

所有这些事情。

All that stuff.

但如果你仔细看，他在相当长的一段时间里都是顶级的两三位投手之一。

But if you look at it, he was one of the top two or three pitchers of like a sizable number of years.

我的加维案例就是这样。

Is my Garvey case.

对。

Right.

嗯，加维至今还没入选，但问题是，如果我要选一位1973年到1986年间的二垒手……

Well, Garvey's still not in, but it's like, well, if I wanted a first baseman from 1973 to 1986

不，问题就在这儿。

No, that's the problem.

他并没有坚持到1986年。

It didn't go to '86.

甚至连1984年都没到？

It didn't even Or really 80 go four?

他们什么时候开始争执的？

When did What did they had fought

他是84年吗？

He 84?

是的。

Yeah.

但到了教士队，他的表现已经下滑了。

And But the Padres, he had fallen off by the Padres.

我觉得，他大概从82年开始就不再那么出色了。

Like, he stopped being great, I wanna say off the top of my head, like 82.

是的。

Yeah.

加维可能并没有足够长的巅峰期。

Like, Garvey may not have had a long enough prime.

盖德里肯定也没有

Guidry Guidry definitely didn't have a

足够长的巅峰期。

long enough prime.

他没有，但看看格里迪的赛扬奖排名，是的。

He didn't, but he won Guidry, if you look at his Cy Young finishes Yeah.

格里迪从来不是个差劲的投手，即使在职业生涯末期，他每局投球依然表现优秀，只是他是个身体素质出色的投手，给了

Would and Guidry was never a bad pitcher, like even at the end, he was still inning for inning a good guy, just It was the good body guy, gave

控球型的三振型投手。

whip kind of K's guy.

是的。

Yeah.

他是最初的那批球员之一。

He was one of the original ones.

马特也是同样的情况，可能巅峰期也不够长。

Matt only was the same thing, like probably not long enough.

不，但是

No, but But the

凯尔特人队一直面临一个关于退役球衣号码的问题，有些退役号码的依据很牵强，有时老板们只是想博取好感，就说我们要退役这位球员的号码，这将是一个伟大的日子。

Celtics had this issue with all the retired numbers we have, where there's some some flimsy ones, and sometimes the owners, they just wanna get some goodwill, and it's like, we're gonna retire this guy, it's gonna be a great day,

拜托，你得退役马廷利的号码啊。

come You on have to retire Mattingly's number.

他是米基·曼特尔之后纽约最受欢迎的运动员，我想在杰特之前，有没有哪位纽约球员比唐·马廷利更受爱戴？

He was the most popular New York athlete between, I'm trying to think post Mickey Mantle, was there a guy more beloved in New York than Don Mattingly pre Jeter?

至少在棒球运动员中是这样。

Certainly like a baseball player.

他确实比尤因更受爱戴。

He definitely was more beloved than Ewing was.

我们只谈棒球的话，我觉得没有哪位洋基队球员比他更受爱戴。

Well, you just keep it to baseball, I don't think there was a more beloved Yankee.

瑟曼·蒙森算一个，但我觉得马廷利可能甚至比蒙森还要更受欢迎，尽管他没拿过世界大赛冠军，他在纽约的受欢迎程度简直不可思议。

Thurman Munson, but I think actually Mattingly maybe was a little, even though he didn't win world tiers, was a little even bigger than That Munson really was in unbelievable New

也是。

too.

他是那种典型人物，当我想到库里时代和马蒂宁、拉里·伯德的时代时，如果库里生活在七八十年代，他可能只会因为脚踝问题打七年球。

He's one of those when I think like the Curry era versus like the Mattingly Larry Bird era, where Curry, if he's in the seventies and eighties, he just has ankle problems, and he probably plays seven years.

我们会说：‘还记得他那场得了60分的比赛吗？’

And we're like, oh, remember that one game he had 60 points?

是的。

Yeah.

但现在我们有了各种先进技术，他解决了脚踝问题，还改善了

But now we have all this technology, and he fixed his ankle stuff, and fixed

他的肩膀和腿部问题。

his And that in shoulder his legs.

在

Place for

然后他又出现了背部问题，而在80年代的伯德身上，我们也不太知道该怎么处理这种情况。

And then he just had a bad back, and we didn't kind of know what to do with that in Same 1980 thing with Bird.

伯德的身体开始崩溃，我们当时对印第安纳队的情况一无所知

Bird's body just started to break down, we had no idea Indiana We had