第105集：Lizzy、Ben 和 Josey —— 游戏机制与艺术的交汇 - 书虫最爱的三款游戏 - 有趣的周末计划

坐下来玩。

Sit down to play.

有趣的是，即使有些游戏我隔了很久再玩，我也会觉得，我记得我很喜欢这个游戏。

It's funny because even though there are games that I've revisited over a long time, I'm like, I remember liking this very much.

我会忘记所有规则，但我觉得我会保留我记得喜欢它的这个事实，这跟桌游的关系真是奇怪，因为游戏玩法不是极其重要的吗？

I will forget all of the rules, but I think I will maintain the fact that I remembered liking it, which is such a strange relationship to have to a board game because isn't the gameplay incredibly essential?

很多桌游玩家是为了和别人互动才去的。

A lot of board gamers are there for that interaction with other people.

所以你可能只是记得你和别人一起玩时的感受，而不是记得你在游戏里具体做了什么。

So you might be just remembering how you feel when you're playing the game with other people and not remembering exactly what you did on the game.

所以也许那是那种类型的游戏，而不是，哦，我记得游戏里发生的故事，但你可能不记得游戏的实际机制。

So maybe it was that type of game versus, oh, I remember the story of what happened to us during the game, but you might not remember the actual mechanics of the game.

我完全同意。

I totally agree with that.

但我认为，那些情绪，那些……

But I think the the the emotions of of...

游戏带来的情感比实际做了什么或怎么做的机制要重要得多。

That the game creates is so much more important than the actual mechanics of what you did or how you did it.

人们记住的是情感。

People remember the emotion.

其他东西他们可能都记不住。

They don't remember probably anything else.

我也不确定。

I don't know.

这正好引到我们的主题，是Lizzy提出的，就是桌游机制与艺术的结合。

And that's a good segue into our main topic put out by Lizzy where boardgame mechanics meet art.

那么，Lizzy，你提出这个主题时是怎么想的？

So, Lizzy, do you wanna talk about what you were thinking about when you suggested this topic?

这是个好问题。

That is a good question.

说实话，我就是在想，我们怎么来讨论这种有趣的关系，因为这是我们第一次可能从一开始就和艺术家合作，参与桌游的每一个步骤，而且这也是Josey第一次为桌游画插画。

Honestly, I was just thinking about how do we discuss this interesting relationship we had where it's our first time maybe working with an artist from the very beginning on every single step of a boardgame, and it's Josey's first boardgame that she's ever illustrated.

所以我就觉得那会是个挺有意思的切入点。

So I just thought that would be kind of an interesting jumping off point.

你是什么时候把Josey拉进整个过程的？

When did you pull Josey into the whole process?

一开始Ben和我确实有个特别丑的原型，主要是……

Ben and I did initially have a really ugly prototype that was mostly...

我记得我大概花了三个小时，挺丑的。

I think I spent like three ugly.

不过还是挺可爱的。

It was cute still.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我确实在Canva上花了大概三个小时，想找些好看的小玩意儿，因为那些小玩意儿都是独特的装饰品，你可以买来放在你的书柜棋盘上。

I did spend like three hours in Canva to try to find good knickknacks because all the knickknacks are like unique trinkets that you can buy and you can put on your bookcase board.

虽然那只是个原型，但我就想，我还是希望它们在视觉上能稍微搭一点。

And even though it was a prototype, I was like, well, I do want them to visually match a little bit.

所以我就在Canva里埋头苦找，想找一些看起来风格统一的图形来配那些。

So I was in the Canva mines just trying to find graphics that looked a little cohesive for those.

我想再往前倒一点，

I wanna back up even a little bit more

因为从我...

than that because from what I...

我觉得视觉效果从一开始就是Bookwyrm这个想法的一部分。

Like, I think the visuals have been part of Bookwyrm since the very, very inception of the idea.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为我觉得，Lizzy，你来找我，我知道你可能已经聊过了，就是你有了那个书卡片的点子。

Because I think, Lizzy, you came to me, and I know you maybe already talked about it where you you had the idea for the book cards.

然后你说，书卡片会是这样，它们会放在书架上。

And you're like, the book cards are gonna look like this, and they're gonna sit on a bookshelf.

所以视觉效果从一开始就占了很大的比重。

And so the, like, the visuals were were a huge part of it right from the start.

至少我记得的是，你跟我提了这个想法，然后我回去想了想，我们回来的时候就说，嘿。

At least the way I remember it is you pitched me this idea, and then I went away and we came back with, hey.

好。

Okay.

这可能是它运作方式的一个粗略草稿。

This is a rough draft of maybe how it could work.

我们就把这些卡片摆到桌面上吧。

Let's just put these cards on the table.

然后你当时就说，绝对不行。

And you were like, absolutely not.

没有书架我们没法玩。

We cannot play without a bookshelf.

我当时就

And I was

说，不不，没关系。

like, no, no, it's okay.

就是

It's just

十张卡片排成一排。

10 cards in a row.

我们可以假装那里有个书架。

We can pretend there's a bookshelf there.

然后你说，不行。

And you were like, no way.

我们还得打印几张纸来当书架，才能真正把整个场景搭起来。

We had to print off pieces of paper to be the bookshelf to really, like, to tie it all together.

你知道吗？

You know?

我确实有一个很深的记忆，我当时说，那是个书柜，有三层架子。

I do have a very core memory of me being like, it's a bookcase and it has three shelves.

然后你说，嗯，架子的数量和大小。

And you were like, well, the number of shelves and the size.

而且我觉得因为我空间感很强，又是个很视觉化的人，我当时真的觉得，不，按比例来说就是三层书架，而且它们肯定放得下。

And I think because I'm so spatial and I am a pretty visual person, I was literally like, no, proportionately it will be three shelves and they will fit.

但我觉得这也是你多年游戏设计的背景，我觉得本非常相信一切都可以改变。

But I think it's also, that's your game design background then from so many years, I think Ben is very much like everything can change.

而我就觉得，这些不行。

And I was like, not these things.

我确实觉得在游戏设计的讨论中，我经常是那个说“但这是核心”的声音。

I do feel like I was often the voice in the game design conversations of like, but this is essential.

而且我经常是那个说“这必须对真正喜欢书、懂书的人有意义”的人。

And I was often the like, it has to make sense for actual people who are in the bookish space and understand certain bookish things.

现在《Bookwyrm》里还有一点，就是没有……

One thing that still is in Bookwyrm is that there's no...

你必须收集红色的书。

You have to collect red books.

比如，从来没有规定你必须追求某种类型或颜色偏好，因为我觉得人们应该有真正的自由。

Like, there's never, an assignment of the genre or the color preferences that you have to pursue because I think that people should really have the freedom.

如果你喜欢言情小说，你可以坐下来玩这个游戏，然后说，我就要言情，我不在乎别的。

If you love romance books, you can sit down and play this game and be like, I'm going for romance, and I don't I don't care.

我就想这么做。

I wanna do that.

而不是像，我没拿到言情龙，所以整局游戏都不开心。

Not like I didn't get the romance dragon, so I'm sad the whole game.

我只是觉得那……

I just felt like that was...

对创作者来说，能够按照你真正想要的样子，从视觉上和类型上打造你的书架，真的非常重要。

Would be really important to the creators to be able to make your bookshelf visually and genre wise, like what you might actually want it to be.

我得说，独特的玩家能力或者不对称的龙，让你能扮演不同的角色，一直是人们最先要求的东西之一。

I will say that unique player powers or asymmetric dragons that you can play as has always been one of the first things that people ask for.

他们在游戏里提议，然后说，哦，我能当个……

They pitch in the game and they're like, oh, can I be a?

一条不对称的龙，有新的……

An asymmetric dragon that has a new...

一个很酷的能力？

A cool power?

然后我们就说，是的。

And we're like, yes.

但就像Lizzy说的，我们不想把你限制在某个特定的策略里。

But like Lizzy was saying, we don't wanna pigeonhole you into a specific strategy.

乐趣的一部分在于找到你自己的旅程，你知道，还有……

Part of the fun is finding your own journey, you know, and into...

或者说，对自己有创意。

Or, like, being creative with yourself.

而且那……

And that...

那一直是游戏非常核心的部分。

That's been a very core part of the game.

对于可能完全不了解Bookwyrm的听众，你能给我们简单总结一下Bookwyrm的主题和机制吗？

For the listeners that might not know about Bookwyrm at all, can you give us a quick little summary about the theme and mechanics in Bookwyrm?

在《书虫》里，你是一只囤了太多书的龙。

So in Bookwyrm, you are a dragon who has hoarded too many books.

游戏的主要玩法是，你有一副50张书的卡牌，要努力把它们整理到三个书架上，每个书架只能放10本书。

The main way the game works is you have a deck of 50 book cards that you are trying to organize on three shelves that only hold 10 books each.

所以你的书架根本放不下你所有的书。

So there is literally not enough room to fit all of your books on your shelf.

当然，挑战在于棋盘中央还有一个书店，里面的卡比你已有的更好。

And of course, the challenge is that there is also a book shop in the center of the board that has better cards than you already own.

那里有新发行的书，分值更高。

It's got, new releases that are worth more points.

还有一些小玩意儿，能和你书架上的东西产生组合效果。

It's got knickknacks that'll combo with the stuff on your shelf.

游戏的目标之一是，如果你能清理掉自己的收藏，就能获得很多分数。

Part of the goal is that you earn a lot of points if you can clean out your collection.

如果你从书店买东西，也能获得很多分数，但就像现实生活一样，你不可能两全其美。

You also will earn a lot of points if you buy stuff from the bookshop, and you cannot do both just like real life.

所以我觉得，在这两者之间找到平衡，真的很有趣。

And so it's trying to find a balance between those two things, I think, is is a lot of fun.

而且这通常能引起那些爱收藏书的人的共鸣，他们会觉得，天哪。

And something that usually resonates with with people who collect books where it's like, oh my gosh.

我太爱这些书了，我应该整理一下我现有的书。

I love these books, and I should organize the books I have.

但是，天哪，书店里那个新东西看起来太好玩了。

But, oh, man, that new thing at the bookshop looks so much fun.

我喜欢这个。

I love it.

当然，店里还有一只猫。

And, of course, there's a cat in the shop.

所以我得问一下，你们都有养毛孩子吗？

So I have to ask, do y'all own any fur babies?

是的。

Yes.

这个指向有点不对。

This pointing off.

是的。

Yes.

这倒是真的。

The That's true.

蒂亚拉……

Tiara...

店猫的灵感来源，现在就睡在我旁边的椅子上。

The the inspiration for the shop cat is on a chair asleep next to me.

还有封面上的那只猫，叫布兰布尔，是我们一年到一年半前收养的小猫，她跟着我们回了家，好像就在说：我才不管你们有只脾气不好的十四岁老猫呢。

And then Bramble, the cat who's on the cover is a kitten who we adopted a year to a year and a half ago who followed us home, and she was like, I don't care that you have a grumpy 14 year old cat.

我现在是她的妹妹了，我们要一直一起玩。

I'm her sister now and we're going to play all the time.

不过，我也不太清楚。

But yeah, I don't know.

我们俩都非常喜欢猫。

We both love cats a lot.

不过我知道Josey更像是个喜欢狗的人，这也很正常。

I know Josey though, more of a dog person, which is very valid,

但我所有的朋友都是爱猫的人。

but I, all of my friends are cat people.

我觉得大多数搞创作的人都喜欢猫。

I think it's all like most creative folks web cats.

我记得我们第一次聊到这款游戏的时候，你提到有只猫，我第一个问题就是：你们的猫叫什么名字？

I think one of our first calls about the game when you mentioned there was a cat, I think the first question I was like, okay, what are your cats names?

它们肯定会在游戏里客串一下。

They're definitely going to make cameos.

这没什么好商量的。

Like it's not a day negotiation.

比如谁会上封面之类的，然后你们就说，嗯，有一只可以上封面。

Like who's going be on the, like, they're like, well, one could be on the cover.

然后我就说，好，谁在这儿。

And I was like, okay, who's here.

谁在那儿。

Who's there.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以那天我真的很高兴你也在场。

So that was probably the day I'm glad you were on

因为我们已经把Kiara偷偷塞进游戏里十年了，很高兴你准备好了。

top of it because we've been sneaking Kiara into games for a decade, and it was nice that you were you were ready.

我就说，太好了。

I was like, good.

我们意见一致。

We agree.

她必须出现在里面。

She's gotta be in there.

其实挺有意思的，因为最近有人读了规则书，然后他们说，等等，这里有人设计了《Kim Joy的魔法烘焙坊》吗？

It's actually funny because someone recently read the rule book and they were like, wait, did someone here design Kim Joy's Magic Bakery?

因为那只猫看起来很像，而且在那款游戏里那只猫也很麻烦。

Because the cat looks similar and the cat is troublesome in that game.

然后我就想，他们是怎么发现的？

And I was like, how did they realize?

因为Ben就是《Kim Joy的魔法烘焙坊》的设计师。

Because Ben is the designer of Kim Joy's Magic Bakery.

然后我就说，天哪，我们是不是露馅了？

And I was like, oh my gosh, do we slash you have a tell?

而且就是猫很麻烦这一点。

And it's like cats being troublesome.

或者这可能是你的标志性风格。

Or it could be like your signature thing.

就像你做的每件事都得有个客串角色。

Like every single thing you do has to have a cameo.

就像是

Like it's

你的艺术在里面。

like your art in it.

没错。

Exactly.

这就是你现在在Exploding Kittens工作的原因吗？

Is this why you now work at Exploding Kittens?

他们能感觉到猫咪的力量？

They could sense the kitten power?

那是我面试时说的。

That was that was in my interview.

我当时就说，如果你们雇佣我，我会让...

I was just like, if you hire me, I'll make...

我会让每款游戏里都有一只猫。

I'll get a cat in every game.

然后他们就说，搞定了。

And then they were like, done.

会有扩展包，因为在这个游戏的众筹里，你有基础游戏，但还有包含猫和植物的扩展包。

There's gonna be expansion because in this game, for the Kickstarter, you you have the base game, but then there is the expansion with the cats and the plants.

还是说那些已经包含在游戏里了？

Or is that included in the game?

没有。

No.

那是扩展包的一部分。

That's part of the expansion.

需要说明的是，它们其实不会真的坐在你的架子上。

And to be clear, they don't actually sit on your shelf.

但当你锁住一个架子时，你可以加一只猫，或者领养那些猫，然后猫会把架子上的东西弄掉。

But when you lock a shelf, you can add a cat or you can adopt the cats, and then the cat will knock something off of your shelf.

那就是……

And that's...

但是很明显，它们值很多分。

But but obviously, they're worth lots of points.

所以这就是个取舍。

So that's a trade off.

感觉太真实了。

It feels so realistic.

我都想玩这个游戏了。

I feel like playing this game.

它让我感觉特别像我平时整理书架的样子，怎么摆书、怎么摆游戏，有些人喜欢多放点东西让书架更好看，有些人就只想尽量多塞几本书进去。

It just feels so realistic to how I organize bookshelves and how I organize both books and games on my shelves and how there are some people that like more things to make it more aesthetically pleasing and some people that just wanna fill up as many books as possible to cram as much in there.

而且我很喜欢它真的能让人感受到那种藏书癖、收藏家或者书虫的感觉，随便你怎么说。

And I love how it really evokes the feeling of being a book hoarder or collector or worm, however you wanna say it.

其实在整个开发过程中，这确实是个挺有趣的挑战，就是……

And that was actually a fun challenge during the entire development process where where...

你说得对。

You're right.

就像你……

It's like you...

我们希望你能自由地按自己的方式整理书架，而且这仍然是一个可行的策略。

We want you to have the freedom to organize your shelf however you want and for it still to be a viable strategy.

如果你按颜色、按类型、按字母顺序，或者放很多小摆设，所有这些都很有趣，也适合或吸引不同的人。

If you go by color, if you go by genre, if you try to alphabetize, if you go on a ton of knickknacks, all of those are fun and apply or appeal to different people.

而且努力确保所有这些策略彼此感觉不同，但仍然都是能赢的方式，我觉得这就像走钢丝。

And trying to make sure that all those strategies felt different from each other, but were still ways you could win, I think was a was a tightrope act.

而且在力量上也要平衡。

And balanced in in power.

我记得我们和朋友莱利玩过一个早期版本。

I remember an early version that we played with our friend Riley.

他指出小摆设太强大了，然后他说，你真的得确保那些只想放书的人也能完全专注于纯书的策略。

He pointed out the knickknacks were by far so powerful, and he was like, you really gotta make sure that someone who just only wants books can just really lean into the book only strategy.

然后我就想，对，确实是这样。

And it's like, yeah, that's true.

在这个游戏中，美术和平面设计对于让选牌和摆放的实际机制更容易或更具互动性有多重要？

And how important was the art and the graphic design to make the actual mechanics of the draft and the placement easier or more interactive in this game?

我觉得因为这款游戏非常视觉化，而且在某种程度上是一款卡牌摆放游戏，所以帮助人们看到模式并更直观地整理他们的书架非常有帮助。

I think because it is so visual and it's a tableau building game in a way, it's so helpful to help people see the patterns and more intuitively be able to organize their shells.

我记得这一点部分是因为当Ben和我制作了一个原型，其中所有红色书籍卡片都是红色的，所有绿色卡片都是绿色的，当我们修改东西时，我们不得不换入我们刚刚画了书籍卡片的纸片，也许用荧光笔，很快地在书脊上涂上颜色。

I remember this partially because while Ben and I made a prototype where all the all the red book cards were red and all the green ones were green, as we were modifying things, we would have to swap in pieces of paper that we had just drawn book cards on, and maybe with a highlighter, just put a color on the spine really quickly.

我们的朋友在试玩这个版本时遇到了很多麻烦。

And our friends had so much trouble playtesting this version of it.

而一旦类型图标消失，一旦颜色变得破旧，游戏就变得困难多了。

Whereas soon as the genre icons were gone, as soon as the colors were threadbare, it was so much harder.

你可以看到乐趣在下降。

And you could see the fun go downhill.

这真的强调了美术的重要性。

And it really just emphasized how important the artwork is.

当你有美术时，把所有东西放在一起会变得更加愉快。

When you have the art, it becomes so much more enjoyable to put all of

把这些碎片拼在一起，看到图案活起来。

these pieces together and to see the patterns come to life.

我还觉得这是一个……

I also think it's a...

这个游戏的一大吸引力就在于，有点像……

Just a big appeal of the game where it's like part...

我觉得我们想传达的那种幻想，或者说想……

The whole fantasy that I think we're trying to address or try...

想给玩家带来的体验，就是你可以……

Trying to give players in this game is like you are...

就是那种能整理自己书架的感觉，一个全新的书架，想怎么摆就怎么摆，还能加上自己的创意。

It's the fantasy of being able to organize your own bookshelf and a totally new bookshelf and organize it however you want and put your creative spin on it.

而且我觉得，要真正实现这种幻想，书架必须好看，玩的时候看起来得是个特别吸引人、特别有趣的书架。

And I think in order to really realize that fantasy, the bookshelf has to look good and it has to look like a really attractive fun bookshelf as you're playing the game.

所以那一直是……

So that was always...

这一直都很重要，就是说，好吧。

Has always been important where it's like, okay.

我们希望你能……

We want you...

我们希望这能成为一个功能完整的游戏，一个有趣的谜题，但它也必须好看，因为这就是游戏的魅力所在。

We want this to be a functional game that is an interesting puzzle, but it also just needs to be pretty because that's the whole appeal of the game.

那么，Josey，你是拿到了一份物品清单或书籍清单，然后需要决定为它们画什么，还是你……

So, Josey, did you get just a list of items or a list of books and then you have to decide what to draw for them, or did you...

你参与了构思物品之类的过程吗？

Were you involved in the process of thinking of items and stuff like that?

我看到了那个非常可爱的原型，别小看那个原型。

I got to see the really cute prototype with don't knock that prototype.

我先看到了那个版本，所以心里有数。

I got to see that version first, so I had a good idea.

但就实际情况而言，交到我手上的是一份Excel表格，里面列着他们已经想好的物品清单。

But in terms of what happened, what was handed off to me, I got an Excel spreadsheet of a list of items that they had already cooked up.

然后还有标题什么的。

And then the titles and stuff.

其实我直到把所有素材交上去之后才看到那些优惠券。

I actually didn't see any of the coupons until I handed all the assets over.

所以我当时并不知道《沙丘》会大受欢迎，也不知道《使女的故事》会火。

So I did not know that Dune was going to be a huge hit or a Handmaid's Tale, T A I L.

所以我有不少惊喜，因为我和Lizzy、Ben合作了一年。

So I had lovely surprises because was working with Lizzy and Ben for a year.

我当时就想，太好了。

And so I was like, sweet.

我觉得我什么都知道。

I know everything there is to know.

然后游戏上线了。

And then the game comes out.

我才发现，原来猫和植物是这样的。

I'm like, that's how cats and plants were.

所以这真的很搞笑，因为尽管我参与得这么深，我觉得还有很多东西我也是第一次才知道，当我们跟大家一起分享的时候，那种平衡真的很有趣。

So like it's hilarious because as involved I was, I think there was so much that I was also learning for the first time as we got to share it with everybody else, which was like such a fun balance.

而且我还看到了一个版本的游戏，我不知道你们想不想聊聊，你们经历了那么多轮的迭代。

And like I also saw a version of the game that I don't know if you guys want to speak to, you know, you guys went through so many iterations.

做了大量的试玩测试。

There was so much playtesting.

所以，我最初加入时看到的那个游戏版本，这个……

And so the version of the game that I was brought on in the very beginning, this...

核心是一样的。

The core of it was the same.

但我觉得，随着你们不断和社区交流，有很多东西被不断优化升级，我觉得自己很幸运能亲眼见证这一切，因为我觉得一般人看不到它最初的样子和最终的样子。

But I feel like there was so much that plussed it up as you continued to speak to your community that I feel like very lucky to have thought to witness because I don't think people get to see where it started and where it ended up being.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

你刚才说到惊喜的时候，我就在想这个，因为我觉得有一块重要的内容直到后期才拼凑完整，那就是趋势，而趋势需要它们自己的美术设计。

I was thinking about that when you were talking about surprises because I do feel like one of the big pieces that didn't come together until later was the trends and the trends needed like their own artwork.

所以我们当时就想，哎呀，不好意思，Josey，但我们得调整一下安排。

And so we were kind of like, oh no, we're so sorry, josey, but we gotta like switch some things around.

而且我知道，比如你本来想把所有小物件都完成，因为我们当时好像把小物件分成了两半。

And like, I know it's like you wanted to like complete all the knickknacks for example, because I think we had split the knickknacks kind of in half.

我们当时说，这些是最关键的小物件，然后我们可以做一个原型，把其中一些复制一下，不一定要是最终版本。

We were like, here's the most important key knickknacks and then we can make a prototype where we duplicate some of them and it doesn't have to be final final.

但后来我们有了第二批小物件，然后我们就说，好吧，其实是个惊喜。

But then I think we had the second batch of knickknacks and we were like, okay, actually surprise.

我们不得不重新调整那个号角，

We had to, like, reshuffle the horn

让它从那里出来。

to come out of that.

但是，希望你也看到了，Josey，这些趋势真的是一个非常重要的部分，

But, like, hopefully, as you've seen, Josey, it's like the trends are like this really important little piece of...

基本上就是隐藏信息，游戏开始时每个玩家可以查看两张趋势卡中的一张，比如奇幻书籍对所有人来说价值翻倍，因为趋势是共享的。

There's this hidden information basically where each player at the beginning of the game gets to check one of two trend cards, and it's something like fantasy books are worth double for everyone because trends are shared.

所以这是隐藏的有价值信息，但大家又都知道一部分，这挺新鲜的。

So it's hidden valuable information, but it's partially collectively known, which is a fresh thing.

所以我们觉得它给游戏增添了一些真正需要的东西，比如多一层策略可以去追求。

And so we felt like it added something that the game really needed for, like, another layer of strategy to pursue.

但再说一次，这……

But, again, it's...

真的是通过大量的试玩和反复迭代，我觉得它才不断演变出来的。

It was really just through tons of play testing, tons of iterating that I think it just kept evolving.

你懂吧？

You know?

整个过程比我们最初预想的要长得多。

The whole process took longer than we than we thought it would originally.

我们……

We...

我觉得我们当时太激进了。

I think we were so aggressive.

我们当时想，2025年秋天就要发布这款游戏。

We were like, we're gonna launch this in fall of twenty twenty five.

那是我们最初的计划，但后来发生了很多事情。

That was our original plan, and many things happened.

有很多很多因素，导致我们不得不推迟一点。

There are many many factors that, like, meant, oh, well, you know, delay it a little bit.

再推迟一点。

We'll delay it a little bit more.

但那次推迟反而帮了大忙，因为我们当时已经有一个还算不错、能玩的版本，但我们得以玩得更久，测试得更多。

But that delay turned out to be so helpful because we had a version of the game that was was decent and playable, but we got to play it so much more and we got to test it so much more.

游戏里有很多很多小地方，都在正常运作。

And there were so many things, so many little pieces of the game where it's working.

已经做到最好了。

It's the best it could be.

开发时间比我们最初预期的稍长一些，结果反而成了一种奢侈。

Having a slightly longer development time than we originally anticipated just turned out to be such a luxury.

我觉得这就是独立游戏和热情项目的一个优势。如果这是一个更大的工作室接手，想在2025年发布，那它就会在2025年发布，但我觉得它就不会像现在这么好了。

I think that's one of the advantages of it being an indie game and a passion project where if this had been a a bigger studio that had picked it up and and wanted to publish it in 2025, it would have been published in 2025, and it wouldn't have as good as it as it turned out to be, I think.

我们之前聊过，你把卡片给了Josey，然后她画了那些画。

We talked about how you gave Josey the cards and then she drew the art.

有没有反过来的时候，就是她的一幅画启发了你，让你改了一张卡，或者写了某张卡？

Did the opposite happen where one of her art pieces inspired you to change a card or to write a certain card.

我确实挺好奇的。

I definitely was nosy.

从一开始，我就跟他们说过，我警告过他们，我对他们的世界观有很多问题，所以可能有很多这样的问题。

From the get go, I I told them I warned them that I had a lot of questions about their world building, and so there's a lot of that maybe.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

我不是故意抢话的。

I didn't mean to jump the gun.

你可能应该回答那个问题。

You should probably answer that.

不不，这真是个很好的例子。

No, no, that's that's a really good example.

我觉得在早期那个用Canva做的原型里，就有一些东西，比如熔岩灯，还有相机之类的。

I feel like early on in in that early prototype that was just made with Canva or whatever, I feel like there were, there were things, the lava lamps, the one that comes to mind where there was like, a camera, for example.

我记得我们当时确实是把饮料放在架子上的。

I think that we actually were putting drinks on the shelves.

我讨厌旧版本的游戏，但Josey从一开始就问，这个世界有电吗？

I hate old versions of the game, but Josey from the jump was like, is there electricity in this world?

其实，多跟我讲讲这个世界，不只是视觉上的参考。

Actually, tell tell me more about this world, not just visual references.

龙住在哪里？它们对骑士有什么看法？

Where do the dragons live and how do they feel about the knights?

而且我知道，Josey，你从一开始就很喜欢那个装在罐子里的骑士。

And I know that one of the knickknacks that you really liked from the get go, Josey, was the knight in a jar.

我找到了一个小骑士的素材，然后又找到了一个梅森罐。

I found a little knight asset, and then I found a mason jar.

而且，你知道吗，Josey，真的……

And, you know, Josey, really...

这让你很有共鸣，你就觉得，这基本上就是整个游戏的基调。

That resonate with you, and you were like, that's kind of the game's tone in a nutshell too.

所以我觉得要充实这个世界——骑士是害虫的世界是什么样的？

And so I think fleshing out what is this world where knights are pests?

你懂吗？

You know?

骑士们打扰了正在读书写字的龙，而且有时候龙和公主还是朋友。

You are interrupting the dragons when they're trying to read their books and writing, also dragons are sometimes friends with princesses.

这真是个很好的挑战，让我觉得，等等，你说得对。

It was like such a good challenge to be like, wait, you're right.

这个游戏需要……

This game needs...

视觉效果也需要基于一些实际的东西，我也不太清楚。

The visual needs to also be based in some practical and I don't know.

这两者真的是相辅相成。

The two just really fed each other.

我们回去之后做了很多思考。

We went back and we did a lot of thinking.

我记得我们建了一个世界观文档，然后发给了你。

Think I know, I know we built a world building doc and sent it to you.

你花了很多时间试图回答那些问题，我们就在想，对，这应该是这样吗？

You spent so much time like trying to answer all those questions and we're like, yeah, is this the way it should be?

我基本上就是给你们布置了作业。

I basically gave you homework.

你们回来的时候，带着成果说，给你。

Y'all came in with, here you go.

然后我就说，我有问题。

And I was like, I have questions.

然后呢

And then

我当时就想，电？魔法体系是什么？

I was like, electricity, what's the magic system?

规模又是什么？

How what's the scale?

所以我觉得挺有意思的，因为回头看，这对我帮助很大。

So I think it's funny because looking back, it helped me a lot.

作为当时负责视觉方向的人，我得说。

Will say as the person who who took on the visual lead there.

但我现在回想起来，觉得我可能并不是真的想问魔法体系的背景设定。

But I do think back and I'm like, maybe I didn't mean to ask them what the lore was for the magic system.

但我确实觉得，你带回来的那份文档，还有Lizzy的Pinterest板，真的帮我把思路理清了。我们不只是确定了那种温馨感，因为我本来就知道有模糊的中世纪风格，但你提出了“中世纪复兴”，这真是个绝妙的例子。

But I do feel like there's something to the testament of the document that you brought back to me that really helped me wrap my head around and like Lizzy's Pinterest board where we settled on not just the the kind of coziness because I knew there was vague medieval tones, but you brought up medieval revival, which was a wonderful example.

而且我觉得我们是在《骑士传说》和《情话童真》那种中世纪Y2K风格中长大的。

And I think we grew up during medieval Y2K with A Knight's Tale and Ever After.

所以就有了那种奇妙的结合——明显是中世纪，但又带着当代温馨的感觉。

So there was this wonderful combination of medieval clearly, but with this idea of contemporary coziness.

所以封面上有一把扶手椅。

So there's an armchair on the cover.

我不确定中世纪有没有那种漂亮的格子呢扶手椅。

I'm not sure there were lovely tartan armchairs in medieval times.

那次对话真的帮我构建了世界观，而且你们不仅迎接了挑战，还超出了我的预期。

That really helped with the world building for me to have that conversation and and really that you guys not only rose to the challenge, like met my bet.

你们就像说，给，这就是他们住的地方。

You're like here, this is where they live.

这就是他们喜欢的颜色。

This is what their colors look like.

然后我就想，哦，好吧。

And I was like, Oh, okay.

对了，Josey，你还得说说那个启发封面的梗。

Well, Josey, you also have to talk about the meme that inspired

封面的灵感来源。

the cover.

好的。

Okay.

你知道吗？

You know what?

我真的很感激你们是我的搭档。

I am so grateful that you are my shenanigans.

你们跟我的疯狂很合拍。

You match my freak.

我很早就有一个草图。

I think very early on, I have a sketch here.

我当时就说，好吧，大家听我说。

I was just like, okay, guys, hear me out.

你们知道那个“分心男友”梗吗？

So you know what, like the distracted boyfriend mean?

你们知道那个人吗？

You know that guy?

他和一个女孩在一起。

He's with a girl.

他转过头去看另一个女孩，那个女孩也回应了。

He's turning around, looking at another girl, and that girl reacted.

我想做那样的事。

I wanna do that.

但想象一下，那是一条龙，手里拿着一本书在读，然后它望向窗外，窗外是一家书店，里面挤满了其他正在买书的人。

But imagine that it's a dragon, you know, holding a book he's reading, and he's looking out at a window with a bookshop full of other people buying more books.

这种渴望，我觉得，捕捉到了作为一个书虫的精神，以及我们都会遇到的那个非常真实的难题——手头有书要读，但又想买更多的书。

This yearning, I felt like, captured the spirit of what it is to be a little bookworm and have this very real conundrum that we all have of, like, reading the books at hand, but also wanting to get more books.

这太完美了，因为这正是游戏机制想要捕捉的全部内容。

Which is perfect because that's literally everything that the the mechanics in the game are also trying to capture.

所以我觉得这真是一个很好的例子，艺术给你这种感觉，机制也给你这种感觉。

So I feel like it's it's such a good example of the art gives you this feeling and the mechanics also give you this feeling.

希望你在体验完之后会想，看来我得去趟书店了。

And hopefully, you walk away from it being like, I guess I gotta go to the bookstore.

我觉得Ben，你之前跟我提过这个词，叫“层层发现”。

I feel like Ben, you had mentioned this term to me, layers of discovery.

你第一次看到Bookwyrm的时候，就会觉得，我懂了。

When you first see Bookwyrm, you're just like, I get it.

就是龙和书嘛。

It's just dragons and books.

但其实，里面有很多深度。

But then, like, there is actually like a lot of depth.

如果你仔细看，会有很多惊喜。

And if you look, you will be like rewarded basically.

这个词挺有意思的，而且用在桌游上也很合适，因为人们不需要第一眼就完全理解整个游戏，就像你说的。

It's a fun term and it's a fun idea to like to apply to board games where people don't have to get the whole game at first glance, like you were saying.

我觉得因为我们有那份世界观构建文档，而且我们把整个世界构建得很连贯，所以有很多小细节可以去发现。

I think because we had that world building document and because we built the whole world in a very cohesive way, I think there's a there's a lot of little details to discover.

对吧？

You know?

所以希望玩家们能在游戏里玩得开心。

And so hopefully, people enjoy their time with the game.

而且，就像你说的，我有很多很多小细节等着他们去发现，当他们看到所有的美术，看到整个世界是怎么融合在一起的。

And and, yeah, like you said, I have lots of lots of little nuggets to to uncover as they as they see all the art and see how this whole world fits together.

我确实很喜欢这个设定，龙囤积的是书而不是金子，而且这个世界里根本没有金子，这很反资本主义，太棒了。

And I do like how it's a dragon that's hoarding all the books instead of hoarding gold, and there's no gold in this world at all, which is anti capitalism, which is lovely.

但是还有商店在不停地收购更多的书。

But there are shops that were just buying up more books.

因为，对。

Because because right.

我们还有……

We've also...

我们一直有这个想法，龙在囤积书。

We've always had the idea that the dragons are hoarding the books.

而且我们也一直有这个想法，游戏里没有货币。

And we've also had the idea that there is no currency in this game.

我们……

We've...

你确实是在买书，但我们一直拒绝把它做成一个管理金钱来买书的游戏。

You are literally buying books, but we have always refused the idea that it's not a game about managing your money to buy books.

我们不想让玩家觉得钱不够买书，因为那就不温馨了。

And we don't want players to feel like they don't have enough money to buy books because that's not cozy.

那不是我们追求的那种幻想。

That's not that's not the fantasy that we're going after.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

确实挺搞笑的，我们就是坚决地说，不要金币。

It is really funny that, like, we've just aggressively been like, no goal.

在整个游戏开发过程中，我们一直刻意避开它。

We've aggressively avoided it during the entire development of this game.

我有个重要的问题。

I do have an important question.

这个扩展包里有八张猫的卡牌。

There is eight cat cards in the expansion.

这些猫里面，有多少只是你们在现实生活中认识的，来自朋友的猫？

How many of the cats are real life cats that you know in real life with friends...

就是朋友家的猫？

From friends?

天哪

Oh my

我的天。

god.

我有个……

I have a...

我有个答案。

I have an answer.

我不知道你们知不知道答案，因为我不确定。好吧。

I don't know if you guys know the answer because I don't Okay.

所以有……

So there's...

在猫咪扩展包里。

In the cat expansion.

有两张卡被提到了。

There's two cards that are referred to.

一张是桃太郎里的Momo show。

One is Momo show from Momotaro.

他是我们的天使猫。

He's our angelic cat.

他是我唯一会画的猫。

He's the only cat I know how to draw.

所以我经常在各种地方画他。

So I just spam him in a lot of this stuff.

另一张是Moogie，是新加入的。

And then the other one is Moogie who is a new addition.

他也是从灌木丛里被发现的。

He was also found in a bush.

所以可能就像荆棘丛里最后剩下的那个灌木芽。

So maybe like brambles lost last bush bud.

只是我最好的朋友之一有两只猫。

It's just one of my best friends has two cats.

所以这就是扩展卡组里的两个客串角色。

So those are the two cameos in the expansion deck.

不过，其余的卡牌都是Lizzy和Ben直接提供的参考。

However, the rest are like direct references that Lizzy and Ben sent.

因为我觉得Ben他们想稍微调整一下角色的性格，因为他们心里有更大的想法。

Cause I think by Ben, they wanted to fine tune the personalities a little bit because I think they had bigger, big thoughts in mind.

所以我觉得剩下的部分我就是跟着你们的思路走的。

So I just followed your lead from the rest, I think.

我们当时在确定猫扩展的机制，但我们知道这些猫会把架子上的东西弄掉。

We were nailing down the the mechanics of the cat expansion, but we knew that these cats were gonna be knocking things off of shelves.

所以我们当时在试着找……

We So were trying to find...

好的。

Okay.

我们是不是得找一些参考图片和参考想法，来说明这些猫很调皮？

Do we need to find some reference images and reference ideas to be like, these are mischievous cats.

所以扩展包里的猫大部分都不是……

So most of the cats in the expansion, they they weren't...

而且它们大多不是朋友家的猫。

And they weren't friends cats for the most part.

不过我们确实计划在Kickstarter的后半段，让支持者参与给猫起名字。

But we are we are planning though to, in the the second half of the Kickstarter, allow work on naming the cats with backers.

所以我也说不准。

So so I don't know.

也许一些真实的猫名字，还有真实的人家的猫，还是会混进去的。

Maybe some some real some real cats names and real real people's cats will still work their way in there.

只是名字上，不是画上。

Just in in name, not in art.

但最明显的就是，如果你在某个档位支持，就能把你的猫放进游戏里。

But that would be the most obvious thing is that if you can back it at a certain level and get your cat into the game.

但我喜欢你们这么做，只取名字，这样对你们自己来说轻松多了，因为让她照着别人的猫画，会花更多时间。

But I love how you're doing it, whereas the name to make it a lot easier on yourselves because it'll take a lot more time for her to draw a cat based on someone else's cat.

确实。

True.

嗯，我还说过，如果我们要通过付费给猫命名，那得是捐给收容所之类的。

Well, I also said that if we were ever going to make it via pay to name a cat, it would have to be like a donate to a shelter or something.

但Kickstarter不允许做捐赠，不过我一直觉得那会是个有趣的主意。

But Kickstarter doesn't allow you to do donations, but I thought that would always be like a fun idea.

但得小心Kickstarter的规则。

But gotta be gotta be careful with those Kickstarter rules.

我得说，猫当然是猫的灵感来源，但我不确定Lizzy和Ben知不知道，龙也是受猫启发的。

I will say that cats were an inspiration, of course, for the cats, but I don't know if Lizzy and Ben knew that cats were also an inspiration for the dragons.

关于我们的龙，简报里写得很清楚。

With our dragons, they have very clearly in the brief.

他们希望龙能拿书，腿也能动，但他们想要……

They wanted to be able to hold books and legs, but they want...

我们讨论了不同的形状，还有封面上的主角龙。

We were talking about different shapes and our hero dragon on the cover.

它是一条长长的龙。

He's a long boy.

有趣的是，猫会摆出那种“臭臭腿”的姿势，一条腿伸出来，特别搞笑。

What's funny is cats do this stanky leg where they have one leg out and it's like so funny.

我当时想捕捉那种感觉……

And I was trying to capture...

你们会看到我们封面上的龙。

I'll know you'll see our our covered dragon.

它有一条腿叉开朝右。

Has one like akimbo to the right.

而且他们觉得龙的一些特点，比如身体修长的魅力，还有摆弄底部姿势的那些可爱之处，确实很吸引人。

And they think some of the dragonisms, the charmingness of the length of their bodies and playing with the the the bottom posing was definitely...

我真的有一张朋友家猫的腿伸出来的照片作为参考，封面上的那条龙就是照着那个姿势画的。

I literally, have a photo reference of my friend's cat leg, like, out, and that's exactly what I referenced for the front dragon.

所以我们才会觉得，哇。

That's why we're like, wow.

这条龙太可爱了。

This dragon's so cute.

也不知道为什么。

I don't know why.

然后我就

And I'm

说，基本上就是这样。

like, that's pretty much it.

就像，它一半是猫，一半是表情包。

Like, he's half cat, half meme.

是不是有很多……

Is there a lot of...

因为在设计游戏的时候，会有一些机制可能需要去掉，或者有些部分和规则得删掉。

Because in designing games, you'll have mechanics that you might have to, like, get rid of or parts and rules that you'll have to cut out.

那有没有一些美术作品最后也没用在这个游戏里？

Was there any art as well that had to be just not used in this game?

我觉得……

I think

我挑战他们去改一些东西。

I challenged them to change things.

如果我没记错的话，那是最接近的一次。

That was the closest thing if I recall.

当我拿到最初的装饰品清单时，我对尺寸这类事情特别较真。

When I got the original knickknack list, I was a stickler for things like scale.

所以我们把一些东西，比如挂毯，改成了十字绣，因为我觉得如果考虑尺寸的话，挂毯应该很小，就像骑士的挂毯，放在龙的架子上，看起来就是个小东西。

So we had certain things like tapestry turned into cross stitch because I feel like tapestries, if we think of scale, it makes sense if it was like, oh, a knight's tapestry would look like a tiny thing that fits on a shelf of a of a dragon.

但我觉得如果我们把自己想象成龙，那我们和物品的关系其实取决于我们做什么以及我们把什么放在架子上。

But I think if we're thinking of ourselves as dragons, then our relation to objects is actually relative to what we do and what we put on shelves.

所以我觉得有些东西确实发生了变化，而且视觉上也有几处改动。

So I think there were certain things that transformed from that transformed, and there was a couple visually.

我记得你给我的清单上写的是竖琴，但我就想，好吧。

I think you gave me the list to say harp, but I was like, okay.

嗯，你不可能做一个真人大小的竖琴，所以我们得把它改成便携式里拉琴。

Well, you can't do a life size harp, so we have to change it to the portable lyre.

不过我也不确定。

But I don't know.

有没有什么东西是完全改头换面的？

Was there something that got mixed completely?

不过那真的很有意思，因为那更像是视觉艺术家会考虑的，而不是那些深究游戏机制的人。

That is really interesting, though, because that is something that more of a visual artist would think of versus someone who's deep in the mechanics of how the game actually plays.

而且我很喜欢你如何把主题生动地呈现出来，把它融入那个奇幻世界，因为那种思考方式，感觉在某种程度上非常真实。

And I love how you really bring the theme to life and you really set it into that fantasy world that feels very real life in a way because of that thought process.

嗯，我得说，我觉得因为乔西在开始艺术创作之前问的那些问题，我们确实对小卡片做了一些小调整。

Well, and I I will say, I think because of of, Josey, all your questioning before starting the art, yeah, I think we had some small adjustments to small cards.

但总的来说，我觉得我们没给你太多大幅度的修改意见。

But overall, I don't think we gave you that many drastic notes.

而且我觉得没有什么东西是那种，哦，对。

And I don't think there was anything that was like, oh, yeah.

这个……

This...

我们以为这个小摆设能行，但结果不行。

We thought this knickknack would work, but no.

不行。

No.

这个做不了。

We can't do this.

扔掉吧。

Throw it out.

就是一些小调整。

It was like small tweaks.

比如，还是说那些猫，就是觉得这只猫需要更调皮一点。

Like, again, for the cats where it was like, this cat needs to be more more mischievous.

它们都太困了。

They were all sleepy.

它们都太紧张了。

They were all hypertonic.

就是这样。

That was what happened.

前三个是这样，然后他们说之后给了我忍者猫。

The first three, And then they say they gave me Ninja cats after that.

就像，哦，抱歉各位。

Was like, Oh, sorry guys.

明白了。

Got it.

但第一天我们有点太甜了，我没意识到，因为他们把东西打翻了，我得重新开始我的游戏，但那是个很好的反馈。

But the first day we're a little too sweet and I didn't realize because they were knocking things over that I had to sign up my game, but that was a great note.

我当时就想，哦，现在我明白了。

I was like, Oh, now I understand.

对，是的，我觉得我们在美术进行到一半的时候，也收到过反馈说龙不够多。

That's, yeah, I think we also, at one point when we were midway through the art, we did get the note that there weren't enough dragons.

我觉得我们都慌了。

And I think we all panicked.

我们当时在想做点别的事情，这个我就不说了，以防那是你们正在酝酿的其他项目。

We were thinking about doing something else, which I will not speak on in case that is something else you guys are brewing.

但我记得我慌乱中给你写了一封两页的邮件，说，各位，各位，听我说。

But I remember in a frenzy, I wrote you like a two page email of like, guys, guys, hear me out.

如果他们是很小很小的家伙，就那样飘着，怎么样？

What if they were itty bitty fellas that just floated?

所以我们重新画了。

So we redrew.

哦，说得对。

Oh, that's a good point.

我们重画了书架，加上了……

We redrew the book shelves to include...

因为一开始，上面没有那些小家伙，就是那些小龙。

Because at first, they didn't have the little guys, the little dragons at the top.

现在书架上有了小龙……

Now there are little dragons on the book...

在书架上。

On the bookcases.

而且，我们还用那些小龙作为线索标记，用来记录你见过的趋势。

And, also, we got to use those little dragons as the sort of clue markers that keep track the trends that you've seen.

这我没想到会是这样。

Which I didn't know that was gonna be a thing.

我当时就想，看看这些小面条。

I was like, well, look at the little noodles.

这真是物尽其用啊。

That's so much mileage.

这绝对是我们注重分量的一个例子。

That was definitely an example of us leaning into weight.

我们确实有更多的美术资源，而且我们确实有。

We do have more art and we do.

因为我觉得我们在测试趋势玩法时意识到，这又是最后加入游戏的内容之一，人们有时会忘记自己达到过哪个趋势。

Because I think we realized when we were playtesting the trends, which again was one of the last things to be added to the game, people would sometimes forget what trend they peaked at.

我们当时想，要么我们很刻薄地说，你再也看不到了。

And we were like, well, we could either be really mean and be like, you never get to look at it again.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

你知道，这是个非常温馨的游戏。

You know, it's a very cozy game.

它并不完全温馨，因为某种程度上它仍然是竞争性游戏，不是合作游戏，但温馨仍然是一个指导原则。

It's not cozy and coziness to some extent because it still is a competitive game, not a cooperative game, but coziness still is a guiding principle.

我们就说，不行，应该给玩家发代币，这样他们就能随时查看。

We were like, no, people should get tokens and then they can check it again.

然后他们问，这些代币长什么样？

And they were like, what will these tokens be?

然后我们就说，现在书架上不是有多出来的龙吗。

And then we were like, we have these extra dragons on the bookcases now.

这个解决办法特别好。

And it was a great fix.

不过我想说，我还在想，我们其实不需要对美术做大的改动。

I was gonna say though, I'm still thinking of the idea of we didn't have to do any big changes to the art.

而且我们委托制作的艺术作品，或者你做的那些Josey，都没有被废弃的。

And there weren't any pieces of art that we commissioned or the Josey that you that you made that then got thrown out.

我觉得是因为，你知道，我参与过很多游戏项目，但情况并非总是如此。

And I think because, know, I've I've worked on a lot of games where that is not the case.

我们试过一些东西，然后发现，这行不通。

We've tried something and we're like, well, this isn't working.

我们试试别的办法吧。

Let's try something else.

我觉得主要原因其实是，我们觉得Josey，你的风格正好符合我们的想法。

I think the main reason for that is honestly that we're like, Josey, your style is perfect for what we are thinking.

我在很多游戏项目里工作过，那些项目里有很多高管，意见特别多，我学到的一个教训是，有时候艺术家的第一直觉是最好的。

I think another lesson that I've learned from working on lots of games where there are lots of executives in the room and there's lots and lots and lots of opinions is I think sometimes the artist's first instincts are the best.

有时候一群人一起讨论，反而会迷失方向。

And sometimes a whole committee of people, we get lost.

所以对于这个项目，我们特别重视前期准备工作。

And I think so for this one, it was sort of really important to to us where we'll do all this pre preproduction work.

我们确保大家想法一致，然后希望一切顺利。

We'll make sure that we're on the same page, and then hopefully it works out.

结果确实如此，因为我觉得你那种温馨的风格……

And it did because I think your sort of cozy style was...

这就是我们找你来做这个项目的原因。

That's why we came to you for the project.

我觉得这就是为什么我们不用返工，因为我们当时就觉得，哇，这简直太合适了。

I think that's why we didn't have to redo anything is because we were like, oh, this was a perfect fit.

我正想说，每次我们有任何意见，比如“哎，要不要试试别的？”

I was just going to say that anytime we did have any sort of note about, oh, what if we tried something different?

我觉得每次Josey都会说，“嗯，我试过了，但我决定不用，不过给你看看效果。”

I feel like every time Josey was like, well, I did try that and I had decided against it, but here's what it would look like.

因为我还记得一个，因为时间太久了，封面是Josey最早完成的作品之一。

Because I I feel one that I'm remembering because this is so long ago because the cover was one of the first pieces of art that Josey completed.

但是封面上，你看着书店的时候，窗户外面天空是非常亮的蓝色。

But the cover, the windows, when you're looking at the bookshop, it's like the sky is this really bright blue.

我当时担心那个蓝色太亮了，跟整体不太搭。

And I was worried that the blue was so bright, and it wasn't really meshing with everything.

我就想，如果是日落的话，会更温馨更温暖。

And I was like, oh, it would be cozier and warmer if it was sunset.

所以我们也试过一些不同的方案，比如窗外用日落的颜色之类的。

So there was some variety there where we tried doing a sunset colors out the window and and things like that.

但我觉得看了很久之后，最后还是回到了蓝色，因为封面的其他地方太暖了，确实需要一点对比来平衡一下。

But I think after looking at it for a long time, it just ended up defaulting back to the blue of like, do need some relief in some way from how warm the rest of the cover is.

而且挺有意思的是，我觉得这很自然地演变出来了——我不确定具体是谁想到的，但书店的招牌应该用窗外那片天空的蓝色。

And, and it's fun because I do think it very naturally evolved into, I don't know who had the idea precisely for the bookshop board should be the blue of the sky out that window.

但我觉得把封面完成，或者说让封面艺术成为第一件作品，也帮助我们后来做了其他决定。

But I feel like finishing the cut or making the cover art be the first piece of art also helped, I think, guide other choices we made later.

我喜欢你把她给你的艺术重新用在不同的地方。

I love how you reuse art that she gave you into different things.

但平面设计有多重要？需要有合适的艺术才能让游戏可玩，对吧？

But how important was the graphic design in terms of having the right art for the graphic design to make it playable?

非常重要，我想这就是简短的回答。

Hugely important, I guess, is the the short answer.

但我们确实……

But we did...

你知道，我们有过一些想法，或者我们尝试过一些方法，比如……

You know, we've had a a couple ideas or we've we've we've experimented with ways to get, like...

不是。

No.

我不想说弄到……

I don't wanna say get...

不是。

No.

就是，不是往书里加更多画。

Like, not get more art into the books.

但我想说的是，有一阵子我们有点觉得，也许书卡正面，就是书卡的封面，应该做更有意思的标题设计。

But I guess what I'm thinking of is, like, for a while, we were kind of like, oh, maybe the book fronts, maybe the covers of the book cards should have more of an interesting title treatments on each of the cards.

可以用不同的字体。

They could have different fonts.

可以稍微多一点花样，纯粹是平面设计上的。

There could be a little bit more going on that would be just graphic design.

甚至都不算画。

It wouldn't even be art.

这样会显得太乱了。

It just gets so busy.

我们试过，结果就是……

We we tried it, and it's...

已经有很多……

There's already...

你知道，你本来就在看一个挺拥挤的书架板，非常……

You know, you're already looking at a sort of crowded bookshelf board that is very...

我说拥挤，是希望它是个好的意思，就是说这个书架板上内容很多。

And I say crowded and hopefully a good way of like, there's a lot going on on this bookshelf board.

我觉得已经没有空间再加别的东西了。

I feel like there is not room to add anything else.

所以很多平面设计的工作，其实就是在想办法怎么把注意力集中在那些艺术品上，尽量保持简洁，让人一看就懂。

So a lot of the graphic design is kind of trying to figure out how do we just focus on the the arts, keep it as simple as possible, and make it as understandable as possible.

希望这回答了你的问题。

Hope that answers the question.

我不知道，Lizzy，你还有什么要补充的吗？

I don't know, Lizzy, if you have anything else to add.

我想我唯一想补充的是，我们通常认为是平面设计的一些东西，其实是Josey为我们做的艺术品，比如书卡上的边框或者图标。

Think the only other thing I was going to add was that I think some of the things that we would traditionally think of as being graphic design are pieces of art that Josey did do for us, like the borders on the book cards or the icons.

从一开始我们就讨论过，与其让Josey只做最基础的艺术，我们更希望她能把这些小细节也做了，这样整体效果才能统一。

That that was something that from the very beginning, we talked about how instead of being like, Josey, do, like, the minimum art, we were kinda more like, Josey, do do those little pieces too so that it all works together.

说得好。

That's a good point.

这个游戏肯定有一个版本，里面的字体是那种……

There's definitely a version of this game that has a font that you...

对于所有这些数字，Josey你做的处理真是……

For all those numbers, the treatment that Josey you did so

好多了。

much better.

手稿里的数字，比如你可以有很多书架。

Manuscript For numbers, you can have a lot of shelves, for example.

确实。

True.

最后一个问题。

One last question.

我在看你的Kickstarter页面，它真的很漂亮。

I'm looking at your Kickstarter page, and it is beautiful.

那么，你们筹了多少钱……

So how much...

我知道Josey负责了所有的美术，但页面本身也是Josey做的吗？

I know Josey did all the art, but did Josey do the actual putting together of it?

Lizzy的平面设计能力比我强多了。

Lizzy is a much better graphic designer than I.

我觉得我们的工作流程通常是这样的：Lizzy先定下整体的视觉风格和框架，然后我试着去完成它。

I feel like our our workflow is usually like, Lizzy sets the tone or third of the graphic, and then I would try to finish it.

最后Lizzy再过来把一切都调整好。

And then Lizzy would come in and fix everything.