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本集由费olio学会赞助播出，我们非常高兴，塔比莎，能欢迎他们成为读书会的新赞助伙伴，这再合适不过了。
This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society, and we are delighted, aren't we, Tabitha, to welcome them as their new presenting partner of the book club, which could not be more fitting.
当然。
Absolutely.
多米尼克，你去年圣诞节送了我一本费olio学会的书，美得不可思议。
And Dominic, you actually gifted me a Folio Foliosociety book for Christmas and it's absolutely beautiful.
每一个细节都经过精心设计，简直是一件艺术品。
Every detail feels considered, it's a work of art.
在3月3日，他们将推出《了不起的盖茨比》，作为春季系列的一部分。
And on the March 3, they are launching The Great Gatsby as part of their spring collection.
我现在就带着这本精美的版本在身边。
And I actually have that beautiful edition here with me now.
看看这些插图，多么精美。
Look at that, beautiful illustrations.
菲茨杰拉德让黄金熠熠生辉，然后悄然揭示其代价，这正是我们值得反复阅读这部小说、多花些时间沉浸于那些明亮的房间、在乐队停止演奏后仍不愿离去的原因。
Fitzgerald lets the gold gleam and then quietly shows you the cost, which is why it's worth returning to the novel, spending a bit more time in those bright rooms and staying after the orchestra stops.
它就像小说本身一样。
It feels like the novel itself.
表面的闪耀， beneath 的沉默。
The sparkle on the surface, the silence beneath.
Folio Society 是一家由员工拥有的小型独立出版社，总部位于伦敦南部。
The Folio Society is a small independent publisher owned by their employees and based in South London.
Folio 的设计捕捉了盖茨比世界中的光彩，恰到好处地留存，直到空洞浮现。
Folios design captures the shine of Gatsby's world lingering just long enough for the hollowness to surface.
您可以在 foliosociety.com/thebookclub 订购《了不起的盖茨比》并探索我们反复回味的其他书籍。
You can order The Great Gatsby and explore the other books that we keep coming back to at foliosociety.com/thebookclub.
我又转向了我的新朋友。
I turned again to my new acquaintance.
对我来说，这是一场不寻常的派对。
This is an unusual party for me.
我甚至都没见过主人。
I haven't even seen the host.
我住在那边，这位叫盖茨比的人派了他的司机送来了一份邀请。
I live over there and this man Gatsby sent over his chauffeur with an invitation.
他有那么一会儿盯着我，仿佛没明白我的意思。
For a moment he looked at me as if he failed to understand.
我就是盖茨比。
I'm Gatsby.
什么？
What?
哦，抱歉。
Oh, I beg your pardon.
我以为你认识呢，老兄。
I thought you knew old sport.
恐怕我不是个太称职的主人。
I'm afraid I'm not a very good host.
他带着理解的微笑笑了，那笑容远超一般的理解。
He smiled understandingly, much more than understandingly.
那是种罕见的微笑，带着一种永恒的慰藉品质，你这一生或许只会遇到四五次。
It was one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it that you may come across four or five times in life.
它仿佛在那一瞬间面向了整个永恒的世界，然后以一种不可抗拒的偏爱聚焦在你身上。
It faced or seemed to face the whole eternal world for an instant, and then concentrated on you with an irresistible prejudice in your favor.
它理解你，仅限于你希望被理解的程度；它相信你，正如你希望自己相信自己那样，并向你保证，它对你的印象正是你最出色时希望传达的那样。
It understood you just so far as you wanted to be understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself, and assured you that it had precisely the impression of you that, at your best, you hoped to convey.
就在那一刻，微笑消失了，我眼前出现的是一位优雅的年轻粗犷男子，年纪大约三十出头，他那过分拘谨的言辞几乎要显得可笑了。
Precisely at that point, it vanished, and I was looking at an elegant young roughneck, a year or two over 30, whose elaborate formality of speech just missed being absurd.
在他自我介绍之前，我就强烈感觉到他正在字斟句酌。
Sometime before he introduced himself, I got a strong impression that he was picking his words with care.
所以，你好，多米尼克。
So, hello, Dominic.
那个笑容催生了上千个播客的男人。
The man whose own smile launched a thousand podcasts.
那是F.斯科特·菲茨杰拉德《了不起的盖茨比》中的关键场景。
That was a crucial scene in The Great Gatsby by F.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德，1925年出版。
Scott Fitzgerald, published in 1925.
这或许是所有美国小说中最负盛名的一部。
And it is perhaps the most celebrated of of all American novels.
这是一本非常短的书，我觉得人们总是对此略感惊讶。
It's a very short book, which I think people are always slightly taken aback by.
它不到五万字。
It's less than 50,000 words.
但它却被视为伟大美国小说的经典范例。
And yet it's seen as perhaps the classic example of of the great American novel.
它象征着爵士时代，你知道的，女飞飞族、私酒吧、高球鸡尾酒，以及对现状的反叛。
And and it's emblematic of the jazz age, you know, flappers, speakeasies, highball cocktails, rebellion against the status quo.
因此，由于这些元素，它通常被看作是一本轻浮而轻松的书。
And so, because of that, it's generally taken to be a very frivolous and lighthearted book.
但事实上，它内核中蕴含着真正的悲剧。
But actually, it's got a core of real tragedy to it.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, absolutely.
所以小说以一些主要角色的死亡告终，叙述者也彻底陷入幻灭。
So it ends with the deaths of some of the key characters, and ends with a total disillusionment of the narrator.
实际上，《了不起的盖茨比》在很多方面讲述的是一群被自己梦想摧毁的人物的悲剧。
And actually, The Great Gatsby, in many ways, is a book about the tragedy of characters who are destroyed by their own dreams.
当然，这是一本关于财富与享乐的书，正如你所说，有跑车、奢华生活、派对等等。
So it's a book about wealth and pleasure, of course, as you say, the fast cars, and the high living, and the parties and stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
但同时也关乎这种生活方式所付出的人性代价。
But also the human costs of that.
这是一本关于美国梦的书，关于重塑自我、获得新生的理念。
It's a book about the American dream, the idea of reinventing yourself and being reborn.
但也关乎这个梦想被戳破的恐惧，以及我们所有人内心深处害怕被识破的恐惧。
But also the fear of that dream being punctured, and the fear that we all have, actually, of being found out.
这就是我们所有人都将面临的命运，塔比莎。
The sort of fate that awaits us all, Tabitha.
是的。
Yeah.
可怕的前景。
Terrifying prospect.
而且有一件事，我认为人们很少提及《了不起的盖茨比》，我觉得这本书是关于怀旧、关于过去，关于那种想要倒转时钟、抓住那些正在消逝之物的渴望。
And something that actually, I think people don't bring out very often about The Great Gatsby, I think it's a book about nostalgia, and about the past, and about the desires turn back the clock, and to clutch onto something that's vanishing out of sight.
而这一点，正是盖茨比这个角色所体现的——我得说，仅凭几句话，我觉得我已经真正捕捉到了这个男人那难以捉摸的魅力。
And that's something that this character, Gatsby, who I have to say, felt like I even in a few words, I think I really captured the elusive charm of the man.
对。
Yeah.
那个虚伪的老家伙。
The fraudulent old sport.
是的。
Yeah.
这种欺诈性。
The fraudulence.
我觉得，这个人核心的虚伪之处。
The central the central fulseness of the man, I feel like.
不过，在这一集的后面，我们会见到汤姆·布坎南，所以也许。
Well, later in the episode, we'll be meeting Tom Buchanan, so maybe
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你觉得他的残酷权力，我
His cruel power, you reckon I
可以用粗暴的暴力来表现。
can Brutish do that as violence.
精彩。
Brilliant.
是的，没错。
Yeah, Exactly.
所以在我们开始之前
So before we get
在讨论这本书之前，我们要先谈谈二十世纪二十年代的背景以及F.
into know, we'll discussing the book, we'll be discussing the context of the nineteen twenties and F.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德本人。
Scott Fitzgerald himself.
但首先，塔比莎，你对这本书的第一印象是什么？
But first of all, Tabitha, your first impressions of the book.
我猜你也看过电影吧，巴兹·鲁赫曼执导的那部电影
I'm guessing you've seen the film as well, the Baz Luhrman film
与F.
with F.
菲茨杰拉德。
Fitzgerald.
和很多人一样，我中学时学过这本书。
Like a lot of people, I studied it for my GCSEs.
电影正好在考试前上映，我之后才看了。
And the movie came out actually in the run up to the exam itself, and then I watched it afterwards.
我很喜欢它。
And I loved it.
你知道的，我喜欢它表面的东西——飞来飞去的女郎、跑得飞快的汽车，等等。
You know, I loved the surface value of it, flappers, fast cars, all of that.
但它并没有给我留下深刻印象，没有在我心里留下太多痕迹，没有真正深入我内心。
And but it didn't it didn't make a massive impression on on, like, on my mind, didn't really stay with me, it didn't sink that deep.
后来我看了电影，对它的改编感到非常不满。
And then I watched the film and I was kind of outraged by its adaptation.
但实际上，这部电影和我当初读这本书时做的一样，因为它只关注表面。
But actually, the film had done just what I had done with the book and because it's all about the surface.
是的。
Yeah.
它非常直白。
It's very blunt.
它完全是关于爵士乐的。
It's it's all about like jazz music.
比如，有一处，叙述者尼克说，我们都喝得太多了，这一点在书中一直被暗示但从未明说。
And at one point, for instance, Nick, the narrator says, oh, we all drunk too much, which is always implied in the book but never stated.
然后重新阅读时，我们会讨论这次对它的看法，但它确实没有给我留下深刻印象。
And then rereading it, I mean, we'll we'll discuss what we made of it this time, but it definitely didn't make a massive impression.
我享受了阅读过程，但仅此而已。
I enjoyed it, but it didn't go much further than that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以对我来说，第一次读它时，我记得被它比我预期的要奇怪得多所震撼。
So for me, when I first read it, I remember being struck by how much stranger it was than I was expecting.
我以为这会是一本关于鸡尾酒、派对和享乐主义的书。
So I thought it would be a book about cocktails and parties and hedonism and whatnot.
当然，书里确实有这些元素，但它比我预期的要更令人不安，也更含蓄一些。
Of course, those things are in it, but it was much more haunting and kind of oblique, I guess, than I was expecting.
是的。
Yeah.
一切都在表面之下，不是吗？
Everything's beneath the surface, isn't it?
都是那些没有说出口的事情，这正是我认为它不适合改编成电影的原因。
It's all the things that aren't said, which is why I actually think it doesn't lend itself to movie adaptations.
这确实是那种几乎不可能被充分呈现的书。
It's really one of those books that's almost impossible to do justice to.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
我们不会花太多时间讨论这部电影。
And we're not gonna spend ages on the film.
不会。
No.
巴兹·鲁赫曼执导的电影，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥主演的那部，让我印象最深的是它太过浮华。
The Baz Luhrmann film, the Leonardo DiCaprio film, the one thing that strikes me is it's so glitzy.
是的。
Yeah.
如此感官刺激，如此夸张，但实际上并没有捕捉到这本书的细腻与微妙之处，尤其是。
So sensual, so over the top, but actually doesn't capture the subtleties and the nuances of the of the book, in particular, Well, the
但我们还是看看在本集结束时，我们的看法会不会有所改变。
we'll we'll see how our impressions change by the end of this episode.
不过，我们先从一些背景说起。
But let's start with some of the context.
巴兹·鲁赫曼在电影开头确实有一段精彩的蒙太奇，因为那是爵士时代的美国。
Baz Lerman actually has a wonderful montage of this at the beginning of the film, because it's jazz age America.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
所以这个时期是从第一次世界大战结束的1918年到1929年华尔街崩盘。
So that's the period from the end of the First World War in 1918 to the Wall Street Crash in 1929.
美国经历了巨大的经济增长，城市兴起和大众消费主义盛行。
Massive economic growth in America, it's the rise of the city and mass consumerism.
在大众想象中，这就是所谓的‘咆哮的二十年代’。
In the popular imagination, this is the roaring twenties.
百分之百，这是有史以来最具标志性的时代之一，没错，全世界都是如此。
100%, one of the most iconic epochs ever Yeah, in all world exactly.
那种装饰艺术风格的时尚等等。
Sort of art deco fashion and all of that.
然而，这背后确实有黑暗的一面，因为这是第二个三K党兴起的十年，你在汤姆·布坎南这个角色的种族主义中就能看到一些端倪；还有禁酒令的十年，自1920年1月起就开始实施。
However, there's definitely a dark side to it, because it's the decade of the second Ku Klux Klan, you see a hint of that in the racism of one of It's characters, Tom Buchanan, we'll come the decade of prohibition, which has been enforced since January 1920.
但矛盾的是，一方面有禁酒令，也就是禁止酒精饮料。
But the paradox is on the one hand you have prohibitions, that's the outlawing of alcohol.
但与此同时，却出现了私酒贩卖，即走私非法酒精，还有非法酒吧，被称为‘秘密酒吧’。
But at the same time, you've got bootlegging, which is smuggling of illicit alcohol, you've got illicit bars called speakeasies.
当时人们认为这是一个放纵到近乎毁灭的时代。
It's seen at the time as an age of excess to the point of destruction.
1922年，《纽约时报》刊登了一篇关于鸡尾酒派对这一新现象的文章，称鸡尾酒派对的结局通常是有人被枪击或刺伤。
So the New York Times in 1922 had an article on the new phenomenon of the cocktail party, and it said, the end of cocktail parties, basically somebody always gets shot or stabbed.
这种危险与享乐并存的感觉，
This sort of sense of danger, of hedonism and danger going hand in
并行不悖。
hand.
令人兴奋。
Thrilling.
非常刺激。
Very exciting.
非常令人兴奋。
Very like exciting.
一个目标悬挂者获得
A goal hanger get
聚在一起，是的，我们的所有派对都是这样结束的。
together Yeah, that's exactly how all of our parties end.
但‘爵士时代’这个标签，显然指的是爵士乐——那个时代的代表性音乐，而这一名称的流行主要归功于一位作家，F.
But the Jazz Age label, obviously jazz, the emblematic music of the era, and that's popularised by one writer above all, F.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德。
Scott Fitzgerald.
他出版了一本名为《爵士时代的故事》的短篇小说集，时间是1922年。
He writes a short story collection called Tales of the Jazz Age, published in 1922.
实际上，塔比莎，这正好把我们带到了菲茨杰拉德本人身上，不是吗？
And actually, Tabitha, that takes us very neatly to Fitzgerald himself, doesn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为菲茨杰拉德绝对是那种必须深入理解的作家，只有这样，才能看清他作品背后的灵感，因为他在《了不起的盖茨比》中无处不在。
And I think Fitzgerald is definitely one of those writers who it's really, really important to understand in order to kind of see the inspirations behind his book because he's everywhere in The Great Gatsby.
他确实亲身经历了爵士时代。
And he really did live the Jazz Age.
他身处这一切的核心，但对这个时代却有着复杂的态度。
He was in the very middle of it all, but had a fairly mixed relationship with it.
所以这是弗朗西斯·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德，1896年出生于明尼苏达州圣保罗的一个中产阶级天主教家庭。
So this is Francis Scott Fitzgerald, born to a middle class Catholic family in St Paul, Minnesota in 1896.
圣保罗。
St Paul.
是的。
Yeah.
你不是在那里待过一段时间吗？
Didn't you spend some time there?
难以置信的是，我在明尼苏达州的圣保罗住过一年。
So unbelievably, I lived in St Paul, Minnesota for a year.
你在那里做什么？
What were you doing there?
我在那里为我的博士论文做研究。
I was doing the research for my PhD.
那里非常冷，我是在冬天去的，非常
It's very cold, like I was there over the winter, it's very
所以你并没有身处那种充满狂放不羁的宗教氛围的核心，像个叛逆少年一样
So you weren't being a kind of enfant terrible at the very heart of a rabbisian scene of
我们还是别提了
let's leave
和刺杀还有
and stabbing and
难以形容我的生活和那种生活有多么不同。
galling describe how how different my life was from that.
所以，我清晰地记得，有一天我整天都在档案馆里，然后我正往
So basically, I remember really vividly, there was a moment where I had spent all day, like, the archive, and then I was walking back to
你的岩石是什么？
my You rocks are you?
我租的地下室走，穿过厚厚的雪堆。
To my rented basement and through the snowdrifts.
我真的在想，如果我现在掉进雪堆里
And I genuinely thought if I fell into a snowdrift now
没人会注意到。
No one would notice.
我以为我的身体很久都不会被发现，而且也没人会想念我。
I thought my body wouldn't be discovered for ages, but also no one would miss me.
没人知道我存在。
No one knows I exist.
就像下一个夏天被德国牧羊犬吃掉一样。
Just getting eaten by Alsatians like the next summer.
但从某种意义上说，这确实很了不起，盖茨比。
That's very great Gatsby though in a way.
所以这让你明白了。
So that gives you yeah.
一个来自无名之地的无名人士消失了。
A man who know mister nobody from nowhere has disappeared.
好吧。
Alright.
在雪地里。
In the snow.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，是的，我的生活并不像菲茨杰拉德那样。
So, yeah, that my life was not like Fitzgerald.
一点都不是。
Not not one bit.
他实际上有个很有趣的细节。
He was actually this is a really fun detail.
他实际上是用一个叫弗朗西斯·斯科特·基的人命名的，那是他的表亲，而此人写了《星条旗》。
He was actually named after a guy called Francis Scott Key, a cousin, and he wrote The Star Spangled Banner.
是的，那时《星条旗》还没有被采纳为美国国歌。
Yeah, which had not yet been adopted as the American national anthem.
对，我之前都不知道。
Yeah, which I didn't know.
三十年代，我
Thirties, I
想。
think.
我没意识到
I didn't realise
这么近。
it was so recent.
但菲茨杰拉德，他属于中产阶级，所以并不是那种超级建制派或精英，但他还是上了私立学校，对吧？
But Fitzgerald, he has a kind of he's middle class, so he's not, you know, super establishment or elite, but he still goes to private schools, doesn't he?
他的生活确实很顺遂。
He has quite a charmed life for sure.
是的，他上了私立学校，很明显，从那时起他就展现出非凡的写作天赋。
Yeah, he goes to private school, you know, he's clearly a gifted writer even from that stage.
然后他去了普林斯顿，但由于是天主教徒，他感到自己有点被边缘化。
And then he goes to Princeton, where he's made to feel like a bit of an outsider because he's a Catholic.
而且，这一点在《了不起的盖茨比》的叙述者身上也有回响。
And again, there's echoes of that in The Great Gatsby's narrator.
现在我们来到他故事中一个至关重要的时刻。
He's And now we come to what is definitely one of the key moments of his story.
因此，在一个圣诞节假期，他遇见并爱上了名叫热内瓦·金的十六岁女孩。
So, during a Christmas holiday, he met and fell in love with a 16 year old girl called Geneva King.
他们这段无望的恋情成为《了不起的盖茨比》的重要灵感来源。
And their doomed romance is just a massive inspiration for The Great Gatsby.
人们常常以为，后来出现的他的妻子泽尔达才是这本书的主要灵感来源。
People often think that it was his wife, Zelda, who will come to in due course, who's kind of the main inspiration for the book.
但其实并不是。
But it's not.
真正启发他的，是他与这位热内瓦·金的恋情。
It's this romance that he has with this Geneva king.
她是一位非常富有的社交名媛。
And she's a very rich debutante.
她是所谓的‘四德布’之一，或者类似的说法。
She's one of what was called the four Debbs or something like that.
她们是那个季节中最受追捧、最富有、最具吸引力的四位社交名媛。
And they're the four most sought after, wealthiest, most attractive debutantes of that season.
所以她非常富有，来自芝加哥高档的湖林区。
So she's very rich, from posh Lake Forest, Chicago.
你知道，那一切都围绕着网球、高尔夫和女子精修学校。
You know, it's all about tennis, golf, finishing schools.
但当菲茨杰拉德追求她时，她父亲据说说过：穷小子不该妄想娶富家女。
And her father though, when when Fitzgerald was courting her, allegedly said, poor boys shouldn't think of marrying rich girls.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
这太残酷了。
That's harsh.
这确实非常非常残酷。
And that's very, very harsh.
是的
Yeah.
而且他因此深受打击。
Very and he's absolutely gutted by this.
我的意思是，他几乎想自杀。
I mean, he's almost suicidal.
于是他加入美国陆军，参加第一次世界大战，希望能在战场上阵亡。
And so he enlists in the US army to fight in the First World War, hoping that he'll get killed.
但他实际上从未前往法国，而是在一系列军营中度过了整个战争时期。
But he never actually goes to France and ends up spending the war in a series of army barracks.
他是在那里遇到泽尔达的吗？
Is that where he meets Zelda?
所以他就是在那时遇到了著名的泽尔达·菲茨杰拉德。
So this is where he meets the iconic Zelda Fitzgerald.
那是1918年。
So he's it's 1918.
他在阿拉巴马州的谢里登营地遇到了另一位富有、时尚、有点疯狂的名门闺秀。
He's at Camp Sheridan in Alabama, and he meets another rich, fashionable, slightly nuts debutante.
她是一位南方淑女，对南方邦联和旧南方有着极其强烈的情感。
And she's a southern belle with very intense feelings about the Confederacy and the Old South.
好吧。
Okay.
这可不是好兆头。
That's a bad sign.
从一开始就是个非常非常可疑的信号。
Very, very dodgy sign from the start.
她叫泽尔达·西雷特。
And she's called Zelda Syrett.
他显然仍然爱着热纳维耶芙。
And he's clearly still in love with Geneva.
事实上，我认为他可能一生都爱着她。
In fact, I think he's probably in love with her the rest of his life.
你知道吗，他还在给她写信。
You know, he's still writing to her.
他恳求她回到他身边。
He's begging her to get back with him.
但她写信告诉他，她已经嫁给了一位富有的芝加哥商人。
But then she writes to tell him that she's married a rich Chicago businessman.
三天后，显然他还在情绪低落中，就告诉齐尔达他爱她，两人成了情侣。
And three days later, so obviously massively on the rebound, he tells Zelda that he loves her and they become a couple.
但她也不愿答应嫁给他，直到菲茨杰拉德有所成就，赚到一些钱。
But she won't agree to marry him either until Fitzgerald makes something of himself, till he makes a bit of money.
所以战后他尝试在纽约做广告工作。
So he tries advertising in New York after the war.
他和齐尔达之间一直保持着一段动荡不定的关系。
He and Zelda have this very turbulent on off sort of relationship going on.
他再次考虑过自杀，这种想法也将伴随他余生。
He considers suicide again, and this will also kind of continue for the rest of his life.
然后他决定再尝试一次，成为一名小说家。
And then he decides to have one more go at becoming a novelist.
他最终凭借一本非常著名的书取得了成功，这本书叫《人间天堂》。
And he finally finds success with a very famous book, and it's called This Side of Paradise.
这本书大获成功，于1920年出版。
And it's a huge hit, and it comes out in 1920.
书中大量借鉴了他在普林斯顿的经历。
And it's very much based on his time at Princeton.
比如恋爱、派对之类的场景。
So it's like love affairs, parties.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，从那时起，他就开始从自己的生活中汲取素材。
You know, right from that stage, he's drawing on his own life.
最终，他和泽尔达结婚了，成为20世纪20年代初最时髦的文学伴侣。
So finally, he and Zelda get married, and they become the fashionable literary couple of the early nineteen twenties.
他们总是因参加派对而登上报纸。
They're constantly in the papers for partying.
齐尔达是典型的飞来波女郎。
Zelda is the definitive flapper.
她甚至写了一篇长文为飞来波女郎辩护。
She even writes a long essay in defense of of flappers.
然后在1921年，她生下了他们的女儿，弗朗西斯·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德。
And then in 1921, she gives birth to their daughter, Francis Scott Fitzgerald.
这个可怜的孩子一生充满动荡。
This poor child has a very turbulent life.
有一个非常有趣的故事：当她从麻醉中醒来时，她说：‘她聪明吗？’
And there's a really interesting story about how when she emerges from anaesthesia, she says, isn't she smart?
她打起了嗝。
She has the hiccups.
我希望她既美丽又愚蠢，一个美丽的傻姑娘。
I hope it's beautiful and a fool, a beautiful little fool.
哦，这是《了不起的盖茨比》里的一句话。
Oh, that's a line from The Great Gatsby.
这句话直接取自《了不起的盖茨比》，是的。
That's a line directly, yeah, taken from The Great Gatsby.
那我们继续往前看，到1923年。
So let's move forward to the 1923.
菲茨杰拉德当时26岁。
Fitzgerald is 26.
所以他是个长相英俊的人，带点纤弱的气质，但他
So he's quite a handsome guy in a slightly fey way, but he's
在照片里，他确实很有魅力。
In the photos of him, he's quite attractive.
但他已经开始陷入放纵了，不是吗？
But he's already beginning to sink into dissipation, isn't he?
即使在这个阶段就已经开始了。
Even at this stage.
泽尔达聪明又机智，但相处起来挺累的，说实话，这算是个大剧透——她最后会多次进入各种精神病院之类的机构。
Zelda, clever, witty and whatnot, but she's quite hard work, think fair say, obviously it's big spoiler, she's gonna end up in a lot of institutions, mental institutions and so on.
我可以分享一个关于泽尔达的有趣细节吗？
Can I, I have a fun detail about Zelda?
我超爱听有趣细节，太喜欢了。
I'd like a fun detail, I love a fun detail.
你就是为这个活着的。
You live for it.
我用泽尔达·菲茨杰拉德的名字给我家狗取名了。
I named my dog after Zelda Fitzgerald.
天哪。
Oh my god.
是的。
Yeah.
一只金发、极度神经质的西班牙猎犬。
A blonde, deeply neurotic spaniel.
哇。
Wow.
是的，这很贴切。
Yeah, it's apt.
哇，非常贴切。
Wow, very apt.
是的。
Yeah.
你看吧。
There you go.
而且他们都特别能喝，对吧？
And they're both massive drinkers, aren't they?
我的意思是，这正是他们问题的核心，他们本质上是功能性的酒鬼。
I mean, this is the core of their issue, is that they're basically functional alcoholics.
我是说，高功能型酒鬼。
I mean high functioning alcoholics.
齐尔达名声如此之大，当他们住在纽约时，警察曾在皇后区大桥附近将她拘留，我认为，因为他们以为她就是那个名叫‘短发劫匪’的臭名昭著的连环劫匪——毕竟她太出名了，人们一看到她就以为是菲茨杰拉德的齐尔达。
Zelda was so notorious that when they were living in New York, the police detained her near Queensborough Bridge, I think, because they thought that she was this person called the bobbed haired bandit, who was an infamous spree robber, because she was so famous and notorious that they were like, oh, must be Zelda Fitzgerald.
哇。
Wow.
那不是她？
And it wasn't her?
那确实不是她。
And it wasn't her.
但这件事让她深受震撼，这也是他们最终搬去巴黎的原因。
But she was very shaken by the whole thing, and that's why they ended up moving to Paris.
但在去法国之前，他们住在长岛，而《了不起的盖茨比》的故事就发生在那里。
Well, but before they go to France, they're living on Long Island, which is where The Great Gatsby is sitting.
他们住在名叫大颈的地方。
They're living in a place called Great Neck.
大颈基本上是个聚会热点。
And Great Neck basically is this hangout.
它曾经是一个渔村。
It's a former fishing village.
到了二十世纪二十年代初，它已成为一个庞大的名人聚集地。
It's now become a massive celeb hangout in the early nineteen twenties.
所以是电影明星之类的人物。
So movie stars and whatnot.
人们称它为‘东岸的好莱坞’。
And people call it the Hollywood of the East.
而书中的盖茨比所住的地方，就是大颈的另一个名字——西卵。
And Great Neck in the book is a place called West Egg.
海湾对面是一个更高端的地区，叫桑兹点，在书中被称为东卵。
And across the bay is slightly more upmarket place called Sands Point, which is in the book East Egg.
那里是老钱阶层，不那么张扬。
It's more old money and less flashy.
当他在那里时，菲茨杰拉德显然对阶级与地位的问题，以及你在社会等级中的确切位置着迷。
And when he's there, Fitzgerald is clearly fascinated by these issues of class and status, and exactly where you sit in the hierarchy.
而且
And as
正如我们所见，他沉迷于奢华的派对生活，总是第一个冲向酒柜，但与此同时，他又对这种派对文化感到反感，我认为他对整个派对场景有一种自我厌恶的情绪
we'll see, there's a big party lifestyle and he throws himself into it and he's always first to drinks cabinet, but at the same time, he's kind of repelled by it, and I think there's a self loathing about all the party scene
这种情绪是泽尔达所没有的，我认为。
that comes The Zelda doesn't have, I don't think.
我认为她在很大程度上，你知道，在这方面引导他误入歧途。
I think she very much, you know, leads him astray in that regard.
但让我们回到《了不起的盖茨比》，因为这时他开始构思这部作品。
But to go back to The Great Gatsby, because this is when he starts thinking about The Great Gatsby.
是的。
Yeah.
这部作品的主要灵感，其实是他与初恋那段注定失败的爱情，不是吗？
The big inspiration for this really is that doomed romance with his first love, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Definitely it is.
他曾经在某个时候给朋友写过信，这非常能说明问题。
He writes to a friend at one point actually, which is so telling.
盖茨比这个人物的核心理念，就是贫穷的年轻人无法娶到有钱女孩的不公平现实。
The whole idea of Gatsby is the unfairness of a poor young man not being able to marry a girl with money.
这个主题一再出现，因为我亲身经历过。
This theme comes up again and again because I lived it.
有趣的是，在他们交往期间，热纳写了一个非常像《盖茨比》的故事寄给菲茨杰拉德，故事中一位女性角色被困在一段没有爱情的婚姻里，她的富有丈夫对她不忠。
And actually, interestingly, during their relationship, Geneva wrote a very Gatsby like story and sent it to Fitzgerald in which a female character is trapped in a loveless marriage with a wealthy man who cheats on her.
哦。
Oh.
但与此同时，她却深深思念着自己的初恋。
But that all the while, she's pining for this young love of hers.
所以她也在思念他吗？
So she's pining for him too?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为她确实在思念他，但我认为他代表的是一种并非现实的逃离。
I think she is pining for him, but I think he kind of represents an escape that is not really a reality.
后来，当她离开丈夫时，他们实际上重归于好了。
And they actually ended up reuniting in later life when her when she left her husband.
但这却成了一场灾难，因为菲茨杰拉德太紧张了，喝得酩酊大醉。
And it's a disaster because Fitzgerald's so nervous that he gets really, really drunk.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
他把整个事情搞砸了。
I messes the whole thing up.
是的。
Yeah.
这真的很有趣。
It's really interesting.
天啊。
God.
真是太遗憾了。
Such a shame.
真是太遗憾了。
Such a shame.
但这时他仍然和泽尔达保持着婚姻关系，这说明他们的关系有多么动荡不安。
So but he's still married to Zelda at this time, which shows you how tumultuous their relationship was.
总之，他写出了《了不起的盖茨比》的初稿，但他对它并不满意。
Anyway, so he ends up writing a first draft of The Great Gatsby, but he isn't happy with it.
到了1924年春天，他和泽尔达搬到了法国南部，再次尝试写作。
And then in spring nineteen twenty four, he and Zelda move to the South Of France and he tries again.
此时他们的婚姻已陷入全面危机。
And their marriage is in total crisis at this point.
泽尔达与一位法国飞行员发生了婚外情，或者至少据称如此——那位男士本人坚决否认，说这一切都是她编造的。
Zelda's had an affair with a French aviator or allegedly, the guy himself totally denied it, said she'd made the whole thing up.
因此，她服用了过量的安眠药。
And then as a result of this, she ends up overdosing on sleeping pills.
这种情形在他们的一生中反复出现。
And this again will recur throughout their life.
我认为，这正是《了不起的盖茨比》的重要灵感来源。
And so in that, I think that's a massive inspiration on The Great Gatsby.
它体现了浪漫幻想的破灭，一种永远无法达到人们期待的理想爱情。
It's like the idea of shattered romantic illusions, an ideal of love that can't ever live up to one's hopes for it, I suppose.
他还在继续写这本书，对吧？
And he's still working on the book, isn't he?
因为他最初曾打算把故事背景设定在十九世纪。
Because he originally had been thinking about setting in the nineteenth century.
是的。
Yeah.
现在他打算把书名定为《在灰烬堆与百万富翁之间》，我觉得这名字糟透了，但还没他后来考虑过的那些标题那么差。
And now he and he was gonna call it Among the Ash Heaps and Millionaires, which is I think a terrible title, but not as bad as some of the titles he later with which he later flirts.
我觉得这个标题并不差。
I don't think it's a bad title.
我觉得它很好地概括了这本书。
Think it sums up the book quite well.
确实，我想是这样。
It does, I guess.
我想是吧。
I guess.
另一件事是，当他身处法国时，他对以一部伟大的罗马古典作品为基础产生兴趣，那就是佩特罗尼乌斯的《萨蒂利孔》，这部作品创作于公元一世纪末。
So the other thing is when he's in France, he becomes interested in this idea of basing it on a great Roman classic, which is Petronius' Satyricon, which is from the late first century AD.
《萨蒂利孔》中有一整段是关于一个叫特里马尔奇奥的人。
And there's a whole section of Satyricon, which is about a guy called Trimalchio.
特里马尔奇奥是一个曾经的奴隶，他获得了自由，成了新贵，属于暴发户类型，非常粗俗。
Trimalchio is a former slave who has basically got his freedom, and he's nouveau riche, he's a kind of parvenu, he's very vulgar.
他举办了一场盛大的晚宴，向其他上层罗马人炫耀自己的财富。
He has this huge dinner party to show off his fortune to other kind of top Romans.
上层罗马人。
Top Romans.
上层
Top
罗马人。
Romans.
他在讲述这些人的事，我确信应该有更具体的表达方式，但我暂时就称他们为上层罗马人。
And he's telling, I'm sure there must be some more specific expression for this, but I'm just gonna call them Top Romans.
不错。
Nice.
于是他讲了很多关于自己荒诞不经的故事，炫耀财富，甚至最后还谈到自己的死亡，并为自己举办了一场假葬礼。
So he's telling loads of tall stories about himself, Tramalchio, and showing off, and he actually it ends with him talking about his own death and staging a mock funeral for himself.
菲茨杰拉德觉得这一切非常有趣且富有启发性，他原本想把这本书命名为《西卵的特里马尔奇奥》。
And Fitzgerald found all this really interesting and suggestive, and he wanted to call the book Trimalchio in West Egg.
这太疯狂了。
This is mad.
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我觉得这是一个糟糕的标题，当他把稿子交给出版商时，他大吵大闹，坚持要叫《西卵的特里马尔奇奥》。
Which I think is a bad title, and when he sent it into his publishers, he made a huge fuss, saying I want to call The Great Gatsby Trimalchio in West Egg.
他们基本上拒绝了。
They basically said no.
那他的其他建议标题呢？你看到过吗？
And then his other suggested titles did you see this?
他曾经说，我可以叫它《戴金帽子的盖茨比》。
So he wanted he said, I could call it Gold Hatted Gatsby.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得‘戴帽子的’这个词不该出现在标题里。
Which I think think Hatted doesn't belong in a title.
听起来像是007电影的标题。
It sounds like a Bond a Bond movie title.
哦
Oh,
嗯，这确实像是邦德电影的标题，或者至少是邦德电影的主题曲什么的。
well, this really is a Bond movie title, or at least the song from a Bond film or something.
高高弹跳的恋人。
The High Bouncing Lover.
是的。
Yeah.
这听起来像是P.G.伍豪斯的仿作什么的。
That's like a PG Woodhouse pastiche or something.
我想是吧。
Guess it is.
完全疯了。
Totally mad.
是的。
Yeah.
总之，他在1924年10月完成了这本书。
Anyway, so he finishes the book in 1924, in October 1924.
他的编辑叫马克斯韦尔·珀金斯。
His editor is a guy called Maxwell Perkins.
一位非常著名的编辑。
Really, really famous editor.
他也是汤姆·沃尔夫的编辑，对吧？
He was Tom Wolfe's editor as well, wasn't he?
哦，是吗？
Oh, was he?
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
这是一段非常著名的关系。
That's a very famous relationship.
所以马克斯韦尔·珀金斯是那种典型的美国编辑，美国编辑总是比英国编辑更积极介入。
So Maxwell Perkins is one of those editors who's very into American editors are always more interventionist than British ones.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他非常介入，做了大量重写，实际上为最终成书贡献了不少功劳。
So he's very interventionist, gets to do loads of rewrites, actually deserves a fair bit of credit for the finished book.
是的，他确实如此。
Yeah, he definitely does.
我的意思是，菲茨杰拉德一直对书名持反对态度，而这个书名其实非常好——《了不起的盖茨比》，他始终无法接受它。
I mean, Fitzgerald always kicks back against the title, which is a really good one, The Great Gatsby, he never he never makes his peace with it.
但另一个非常有趣且重要的灵感来源是这本书的封面。
But another really interesting massive inspiration was the cover of the book.
它一定是历史上最著名的图书封面之一。
And it must be one of the most famous book covers ever.
它叫‘天眼’，是一种装饰艺术风格的图像，描绘了两只巨大的眼睛漂浮在深邃的蓝色天空中。
And it's called Celestial Eyes, and it's kind of this art deco image of these two massive eyes floating in a deep deep blue sky.
而且它就像他们所意指的那样。
And it's like they meant to the yeah.
蓝色的风景，一位女郎的眼睛，下方还有一张略带性感的嘴。
Blue landscape, the eyes of a flapper, and then you have this quite sensual mouth underneath.
这幅画出自一位鲜为人知的加泰罗尼亚艺术家弗朗西斯·库加尔之手。
And it was by a very unknown Catalan artist called Francis Cougar.
而菲茨杰拉德的好友欧内斯特·海明威说，
And Fitzgerald's big mate, Ernest Hemingway Yeah.
这看起来就像一本糟糕的科幻小说的封面。
Said that it looked like the book jacket for a book of bad science fiction.
天哪。
Gosh.
我在这里发现了很多关于海明威和菲茨杰拉德关系的有趣细节。
And I'm I there's so many interesting tidbits about Hemingway and Fitzgerald's relationship.
但确实，
But Yeah.
尽管如此，菲茨杰拉德非常喜欢它。
Nevertheless, Fitzgerald absolutely loved it.
他实际上修改了《了不起的盖茨比》以匹配封面
And he actually revised The Great Gatsby to match
匹配封面？
the cover.
匹配封面？
Match the cover?
是的
Yeah.
我喜欢这个细节
I love that detail.
这太罕见了
That is so rare.
这太罕见了
It's so rare.
简直从未发生过
Like Never been happening.
不。
No.
从不。
Never.
马斯菲放大了关于眼睛和盲目的主题，仿佛有一个全知的观察者之类的存在。
Masphie plays up the themes of kind of eyes and blindness and like there's this omniscient watcher or whatever it is.
但我们稍后再回过头来谈。
But we'll come back to
那个我们后面再说。
that later on.
关于海明威这件事，塔比莎，我觉得如果你不讲讲你已经跟我分享过的那些趣闻，那就太遗憾了。
Just on the Hemingway thing, Tabitha, I think it would be really remiss of you not to tell your anecdotes you're what you've already shared with me.
海明威和菲茨杰拉德是不是曾经不得不去男厕所互相检查对方的
Is there not some issue with Hemingway and Fitzgerald having to go into the gents to inspect each
彼此的
other's
设备。
equipment.
是的，确实有。
Yeah, there is.
确实有。
There is.
所以基本上，海明威和泽尔达·菲茨杰拉德彼此极度厌恶。
So basically, Hemingway and Zelda Fitzgerald absolutely loathed each other.
对。
Right.
他认为她疯了。
He thought she was nuts.
是的。
Yeah.
而她曾说，他外在的阳刚之气掩盖了他隐秘的同性恋倾向。
And she thought she used to say that his overt masculinity hid his secret homosexuality.
她总是拿这件事嘲笑他。
And she used to mock him about it all the time.
于是他开始说她试图毁掉F。
And so he started saying that she was trying to destroy F.
斯科特·菲茨杰拉德。
Scott Fitzgerald.
而她采取的方式就是参加派对，到处跟人说他阴茎非常小。
And the way that she was going about this was by going to parties and telling everyone that he had a very small penis.
天哪。
Oh my god.
所以海明威说，不，不，这绝对不对。
So Hemingway said, no, no, this is absolutely not right.
我要做个铁哥们，证明给大家看这根本不是真的。
I'm gonna be a top friend, and I'm gonna prove everyone that this is not the case.
于是他带上了F。
So he took F.
把斯科特·菲茨杰拉德带进公共厕所，检查后出来向所有人确认他其实阴茎尺寸正常。
Scott Fitzgerald into a public loo, examined it, and came out and confirmed to everyone that he had an average sized penis after all.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我觉得你很喜欢给我讲这个故事。
I think you enjoy telling me So this story too
很多。
much.
但我不知道这是否让事情变得更糟。
But I don't know if that makes it worse.
你本想好好为自己辩护，却不得不告诉
You hope to, like, stage a robust defense and you have to tell
所有人：哦，确实如此。
everyone Oh, quite yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
你就像是菲茨杰拉德站在他旁边，看着他的脸。
You're like Fitzgerald standing there next to him with That's his face
整个 episode 最精彩的部分，我可是为此铺垫了好几天。
the best part of this whole episode, I've been building up to that for days.
Anyway，我们回到《了不起的盖茨比》。
Anyway, back to The Great Gatsby.
那就是《了不起的盖茨比》。
That's The Great Gatsby.
实际上，我们该说说菲茨杰拉德和泽尔达后来怎么样了，因为我们可以用剩下的时间聊这本书，但那真的很悲伤，不是吗？
Actually, we should just say what happened to Fitzgerald and Zelda, because we can talk about the book for the rest of the thing, it is sad, isn't it?
因为泽尔达余生都在精神病院进出，接受了电击治疗，最后还死于精神病院的一场火灾。
Because Zelda, basically she was in and out of mental hospitals for the rest of her life, she had electroshock therapy, and actually she died of a fire in a mental institution.
现在人们认为她很可能患有双相情感障碍，但当时他们说她患有精神分裂症。
They think now that she probably had bipolar, but at the time they said that she had schizophrenia.
而菲茨杰拉德，则是把自己喝死了。
And Fitzgerald, he basically just drank himself to death.
他陷入了彻底的酗酒状态。
He sank into complete alcoholism.
是的。
Yeah.
他于1940年在好莱坞因失败而去世，当时人们认为他只是历史中的一个注脚。
And he died of failure in Hollywood in 1940, and at that point basically people said he's just footnote in history.
没人会在意他，对吧？
No one will care about him, do they?
因为他的书已经不再畅销了。
Because his books had stopped selling.
你注意到他版税的这个事实了吗？
Do you see this fact about his royalties?
是的。
Yeah.
令人无比悲痛的是，在他生命的最后十二个月里，版税收入仅为13.13美元。
It's absolutely tragic that in the last twelve months of his life, his royalties came to exactly $13.13.
这不是我的版税，塔比莎。
It's not my royalties, Tabitha.
天啊。
God.
我知道，但愿你的这五十余万字的历史巨著能一直保持畅销。
I know, let's hope that your half a million word historical tomes remain the bestsellers that they are.
而且，办一场比菲茨杰拉德更好的葬礼。
Also, have a better funeral than Fitzgerald.
在他葬礼上，举行的是圣公会仪式，只有二十人出席，牧师事后说，我之所以同意主持仪式，只是为了把他的遗体埋进土里。
At his funeral, he had an Episcopalian funeral, only 20 people went, and the minister said afterwards, the only reason I agreed to give the service was to get his body in the ground.
他是个没用的醉鬼，世界少了他反而更好。
He was a no good drunken bum, and the world was well rid of him.
是的。
Yeah.
事实上，这与《了不起的盖茨比》之间存在着一种令人恐惧的悲剧性呼应。
And there's a terrifying tragic symmetry there with with The Great Gatsby, actually.
《了不起的盖茨比》。
With The Great Gatsby.
关键是，他一直因为试图让作品过于商业化、为了赚钱而写作而受到批评。
And the thing is, he was always criticised for trying to be too commercial with his writing to write for writing to make money.
但他表示，《了不起的盖茨比》将是一部艺术作品。
But he said that with The Great Gatsby, it was gonna be a work of art.
它与金钱毫无关系。
It was gonna have nothing to do with money.
结果，它的反响相当负面。
And then it was it was quite negatively received.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这让他心碎。
Which which broke his heart.
我们稍后会谈到。
As we'll get on to.
好的。
Alright.
所以让我们聊聊这本书。
So let's talk a little bit about that book.
是的。
Yeah.
我想首先吸引你的，是它的感官魅力。
I guess the first thing about it that strikes you is the sensuality of it.
你几乎完全同意。
Do you Overwhelmingly so.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这本书充满了音乐、色彩，还有闪亮的礼服、鸡尾酒派对之类的场景。
So it's kind of full of music and colour and kind of you know, don't know, shimmering dresses and stuff and people parties with cocktails.
我的意思是，这确实是它的刻板印象。
I mean, that does that's the stereotype of it.
但当你第一次读它的时候，很难忽略掉这些元素，对吧？
But when you first read it, it's hard to kinda miss all that, is it?
但他还拥有这些细微的细节。
But also he has these minute details.
他是一位构建紧张感的高手。
He's an incredible builder of kind of tension.
而且，有一个非常紧张的场景，他描述了一瓶冒汗的威士忌，仅仅这一细节就营造出一种极其紧张的氛围。
And, know, there's a very fraught scene where where he sort of describes a sweating bottle of whiskey, and it's just it creates a very sort of tense atmosphere.
是的。
Yeah.
这实际上非常精湛，我觉得。
It's masterful actually, think.
而且，你说得对。
And yeah, you're right.
但有一种普遍的印象，就是美丽的女性穿着闪亮的礼服，人们在阴凉的花园中漫步，喝着无穷无尽的鸡尾酒。
But there is this kind of general impression of kind of beautiful women shimmering dresses, people kind of wandering through shady gardens, bottomless cocktails.
这相当具有印象派风格。
It's quite impressionistic.
比如，我总想到雷诺阿的画作《船上的午餐》。
Like, I always think there's Renoir's painting, the luncheon of the boating party.
画中有很多人物彼此交错、慵懒地倚靠着。
And it's kind of lots of figures in and around each other kind of lounging.
他们的面部特征从未被细致描绘。
And their faces are never articulated.
你从来看不到具体的细节，而只看到一团身体与色彩的混合。
You never see specific details, but it's kind of a mass of bodies and colour.
这非常像《了不起的盖茨比》。
That's very The Great Gatsby.
是的，我觉得这种风格让我联想到约瑟夫·康拉德，他实际上是菲茨杰拉德最喜爱的作家之一。
Yeah, so I think that style reminds me a little bit of somebody like Joseph Conrad, who actually was one of Fitzgerald's favourite writers.
它总是有点难以捉摸，始终处于你视野的边缘，一切都从未完全清晰。事实上，《诺斯特罗莫》是康拉德的一部杰作，我认为这是菲茨杰拉德最喜爱的书，他曾说这是过去五十年里他最爱的书。
It's always a little bit elusive, and always a bit at the edge of your vision, Nothing is ever quite in focus and And actually Nostromo, Conrad's brilliant book, was one of Fitzgerald I think Fitzgerald's fav he said it was his favourite book of the last fifty years.
他从康拉德那里学到的，是一种叙述者的理念，比如《黑暗之心》里的马洛，就是康拉德最著名的叙述者。
And what he got from Conrad was this idea of a narrator, so Marlow in Heart of Darkness is Conrad's famous famous narrator.
这位叙述者在向你讲述故事，同时也告诉你他如何看待这个故事的意义，但与此同时，他未必是可信的。
A narrator who's sort of telling he's telling you the story, and he's also telling you what he thinks the story means, but at the same time, he's not necessarily reliable.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，你总是需要对叙述者所说的话保持一点怀疑，这大概也引出了《了不起的盖茨比》的核心叙述者——这个人就是尼克。
So you always have to be a little bit, you know, sceptical of what the narrator is telling you, which I guess brings us to the central you know, the person who's telling us The Great Gatsby, which is this guy, Nick.
尼克·卡拉威。
Nick Carraway.
这非常有趣，因为在《了不起的盖茨比》的初稿中，他原本设定的是一个全知视角的叙述者。
And it's so interesting because in the initial drafts of The Great Gatsby, he wrote it as having an omniscient narrator.
故事并不是从尼克的视角展开的。
It wasn't from Nick's perspective.
这彻底改变了整个故事。
And that totally transforms the whole story.
因为尼克实际上几乎是菲茨杰拉德的化身。
Because Nick is actually he's almost a version of Fitzgerald.
你知道，他们俩都来自中产阶级的中西部家庭，都上过常春藤盟校，但他们都算是自己所处并描述的世界中的局外人。
You know, they're both from kind of middle class Midwestern families, both Ivy League, but they're both kind of somewhat outsiders to the worlds that they are a part of, the worlds that they're describing.
尼克对自己评价说：我是我认识的为数不多的诚实的人之一。
And Nick says of himself, I'm one of the few honest people that I've ever known.
但书中发生的一切却让我们对这句话产生了质疑。
But then everything that happens in the book kind of leads us to question that.
没错。
Right.
因为他并没有以诚实的方式行事。
Because he doesn't necessarily behave in an honest way through that way.
他参与了许多欺骗行为，比如那场爱情三角的骗局。
He's participant in a lot of the deceptions that happen, the love triangle deceptions.
实际上，这很有趣，因为阶级是这本书中一个非常重要的主题。
And actually, it's an interesting thing, because class is such a big theme in this whole book.
尼克在开头时吹嘘自己的家庭。
Nick boasts about his family at the beginning.
他说，我们家族在中西部已经显赫了三代。
He says, oh, we've been prominent in the Midwest for three generations.
但接着他又说，他们自己其实也有些虚假。
But then he goes on to say that they are kind of a bit of a fraud in themselves.
所以，卡罗威家族，他说，我们有一个传统，是巴克利公爵的后裔。
So the Carroways, he says, we have a tradition that we're descended from the Dukes of Buckley.
但他又说，实际上，我们家族的创始人是在19世纪50年代来到美国的，他花钱找人代替自己参加美国内战，然后开了一家五金店。
But then he says, well actually, the founder of our family came to America in the 1850s, he sent a substitute in his place to the American Civil War, he basically started a hardware business.
换句话说，这是一个相当虚假而平庸的开端。
In other words, quite a fraudulent and banal beginning.
实际上，当尼克搬到东海岸从事金融工作时，他说他买了所有这些
Actually, one point when Nick, he moves to work in finance, doesn't he, in the East Coast, and he says how he's bought all these
这些书。
These books.
这些关于银行的书，封面是红色和金色的，就像新 mint 出来的财富一样。
These books on banking, red and gold like new money from the mint.
实际上，盖茨比后来也会这么做，摆出一堆炫目的书，假装自己很有学识。
And actually, that is what Gatsby is going to do later on, is have all these flashy books to show off learning that he doesn't really have.
他是盖茨比试图成为的那种人的后续版本，没错。
He's like a later iteration of what Gatsby is trying to be, I Exactly.
嗯，我觉得它们某种程度上是尼克和盖茨比。
Well, they're sort of, I think, Nick and Gatsby.
我的意思是，尼克对盖茨比着迷，但他们其实是彼此的镜像。
I mean, Nick is fascinated by Gatsby, but they're kind of versions of each other.
是的，医生。
Yeah, Doctor.
杰拉尔德，我觉得。
Gerald, I think.
所以，无论如何，尼克在书中从中西部搬到了长岛，就像菲茨杰拉德本人一样。
So anyway, Nick, in the book, he moves to Long Island from the Midwest, as Fitzgerald did.
这让他接触到了两个人：黛西和汤姆。
And that brings him into contact with these two people, Daisy and Tom.
黛西是他表妹，是二等堂表妹，而他在大学时就认识汤姆。
So Daisy is his cousin, second cousin once removed, and he knew Tom in college.
他非常钦佩他们，因为对他们来说，就像一个秘密社团一样。
And he's very impressed by them because they are like a secret society to him.
这让我想起了《秘密历史》，我们接下来在这档节目中就要讨论这本书。
Reminds me actually of The Secret History, which we're gonna be doing on this show.
《秘密历史》中处处都能看到《了不起的盖茨比》的影子，我们最近都重新读了一遍。
There are echoes of The Great Gatsby throughout The Secret History, which we've both kind of been rereading recently.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It's so true.
因为汤姆和黛西确实就是那种人。
Because also, I mean, Tom and Daisy are properly like, they're it.
他们是老钱阶层。
They are old money.
他们代表了盖茨比这样的人所渴望成为的一切。
They're everything that people like Gatsby aspire to be.
而汤姆有点像典型的橄榄球男孩，我想。
So and Tom is kind of like he's a bit of a classic rugger lad, I guess.
他打马球。
He plays polo.
他愚蠢、粗鲁，而且非常暴力。
He's stupid, brash, very violent.
在电影中，乔尔·埃哲顿把他演得非常好。
He's played by Joel Edgerton in in the film very well, actually.
他来自一个非常富有的芝加哥家庭，上过耶鲁，打过橄榄球。
He's from a very rich Chicago family, went to Yale, played football.
他有着闪亮而傲慢的眼神，残酷身躯中蕴含着巨大的力量。
He has shining arrogant eyes, enormous power in his cruel body.
书中还有一个持续的笑话，盖茨比总是称他为马球手，而他对此非常反感。
And there's an ongoing joke in the book that everyone that Gatsby refers to him as as the polo player, and he doesn't like that at all.
所以，就像你大学时代直接认识的朋友一样。
So just straight straight out of your university friends.
对。
Right.
我肯定。
I'm sure.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我毫不怀疑
I'm I there's no doubt in my mind that
你知道很多，你知道
you know loads of You know
有很多像他这样的人。
loads of people like him.
得了吧。
Come on.
我不该那样做。
I I shouldn't have.
是的。
Yeah.
我不该邀请你来的。
Shouldn't have opened invited you.
你不该打开那个潘多拉的盒子。
You shouldn't have opened that Pandora's box.
我知道。
I know.
但他娶了黛西。
But he's married to Daisy.
然后是黛西，是的。
And then Daisy yeah.
现在黛西，你能从黛西身上看到自己吗？
Now Daisy, do you see yourself in Daisy?
她。
She's
我我觉得自己更像乔丹·贝克。
I I I to think of myself as more of a Jordan Baker.
真的吗？
Really?
挥杆有力。
Mean swing.
是的。
Yeah.
总之。
Anyway.
话虽如此，你觉得自己和黛西像吗？
Having said that, do you see yourself and Daisy?
然后看了看笔记，看到了‘脆弱’、‘不实在’这些词。
Then looked at the notes and saw the words brittle, comma, insubstantial.
炫耀她有多高雅。
Boasts how sophisticated she is.
天啊，这真有点诡异。
God, that's uncanny, actually.
就像照镜子一样。
It's like looking in the mirror.
是的。
Yeah.
害怕。
Terrified.
黛西的声音里充满了金钱的味道。
And Daisy has a voice full of money.
没人会这样形容你，塔比莎。
No one would say that of you, Tabitha.
没人会用这样的话来形容我。
No one would ever say that of me.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
但他们都是糟糕的人，对吧？
But they're terrible people, aren't they?
完全没错。
Totally
但黛西身上有些东西。
But there's something Daisy.
黛西身上有一种完全、完全迷人的气质。
Utterly, utterly alluring about Daisy.
她的魅力是无形的，因为一切都围绕着她的声音。
Like, there's an immaterial immateriality to her because it's always about her voice.
我们从未真正了解尼克长什么样，同样，我们也从未真正知道黛西长什么样，但每个人对她都有强烈的印象——一个有着大眼睛的纤弱女子。
We never really hear what Nick looks like, but equally, we never really know what Daisy looks like, and yet everyone has such a strong sense of her of being this kind of waif with big eyes.
是的。
Yeah.
她被描述为非常纤细、近乎虚无，但她在与汤姆的婚姻中并不幸福，因为汤姆有外遇。
She she's described as she's she's very slender, kind of immaterial, but she's also unhappy in her marriage to to to Tom because Tom is having an affair.
在故事开头，当尼克第一次参加他们那场非常优雅的午餐会时，她的朋友乔丹·贝克轻声在尼克耳边带着几分尖酸地说起这段外遇，说情妇总是打电话来。
And there's this scene at the very beginning when Nick first meets them all at this very elegant lunch party and her friend, Jordan Baker, whispers kinda waspish waspishly in Nick's ear that all about this affair and that the mistress is always calling.
实际上，乔丹·贝克也是以真实人物为原型的。
And actually, Jordan Baker is based on a real person too.
对。
Right.
所以她就是那个伟大的……她是谁？
So she's the great what's she?
高尔夫？
Golf?
是高尔夫吗？
Is it golf?
是的。
Yeah.
埃迪丝·卡明斯。
Edith Cummings.
她是日内瓦·金最好的朋友。
And she was Geneva King's best friend.
在现实生活中。
In real life.
那个最终
The character who ends
最终与尼克发展了关系。
up having a relationship with Nick.
是的。
Yeah.
而且她出轨了。
And she cheats.
没有人看起来是他们本来的样子。
No one is what they appear to be.
没错。
No.
实际上，关于汤姆和黛西，还有几件小事。
And actually, a couple of quick things about Tom and Daisy.
汤姆是个种族主义者。
Tom is a racist.
所以汤姆在读一些伪科学的种族主义书籍。
So Tom is reading these pseudo scientific racist books.
他不停地唠叨，说白人种族即将被淹没。
He's whittering on constantly about the white race is going to be submerged.
实际上，黛西也同意他的观点，她曾说过，我们必须压倒他们。
And actually Daisy agrees with him on this, she says at one point, we've got to beat them down.
是的。
Yeah.
她只是半开玩笑地、漫不经心地把这事抛在脑后。
She sort of jokingly she's very carelessly flings it away.
还有一段关于他们的精彩至极的描述。
And there's this wonderful, wonderful quote about them.
这是我最喜欢的小说中的句子之一。
It's one of my favourite lines in in the whole book.
它是这么说的：汤姆和黛西都是粗心大意的人。
And it's, they were careless people, Tom and Daisy.
他们捣毁了东西和生命，然后退回到他们的财富或巨大的冷漠中——无论那是什么维系着他们——让别人去收拾他们制造的烂摊子。
They smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together and let other people clean up the mess they had made.
这完美地概括了他们。
And that sums them up perfectly.
确实如此。
It does.
是的。
Yeah.
那些 careless 的人。
The careless people.
坦白说，真的，有很多这样的人。
And to be frank, I mean, there are lots of people like that.
我的意思是，我能想到一些认识的人，他们就像汤姆和
I mean, I can think of people I know who are like Tom and
黛西，我敢肯定。
Daisy I'm sure.
我觉得我们都一样。
I think we all do.
还有盖茨比本人。
And then there's Gatsby himself.
所以在我们休息之前，我们来聊聊盖茨比。
So let's talk a bit about Gatsby before we get into the break.
在书的前几章中，盖茨比只是被提及，他是他们在长岛的邻居，但他是个谜。
Gatsby in the first couple of chapters of the book, he's alluded to, he's a neighbour of theirs in Long Island, but he's a mystery.
他并没有作为一个真实存在的个体出现。
He doesn't really exist as a physical being.
他只是各种谣言和轶事的集合体。
He's just a sort of compilation of rumours and anecdotes.
其中很多都是疯狂且错误的，对吧？
A lot of which are kind of mad and wrong, right?
是的。
Yeah.
比如尼克在见到盖茨比之前参加的那些派对。
Like, at the parties that Nick attends before he meets Gatsby.
人们说他是德皇的表亲，诸如此类的各种说法。
There are all sorts of things, like people say he's the cousin of the Kaiser.
有人认为他曾经杀过人。
Somebody thought he killed a man once.
他在战争期间是德国间谍。
He was a German spy during the war.
不可能。
No.
这不可能，因为他在战争期间服役于美国军队。
It can't be that because he was in the American army during the war.
没人知道他的任何情况，也没人知道他的钱是从哪里、如何赚来的。
No one knows anything about him and no one knows where or how he got his money from.
有传言说他是私酒贩子。
There is gossip that he's a bootlugger.
对。
Yes.
是的
Yeah.
而且人们还认为他可能是兴登堡的侄子之类的。
And people people think that he may have been the nephew of von Hindenburg or whatever it is.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
这种神秘感反映了菲茨杰拉德本人对盖茨比的评价。
And that sort of mystery reflects what Fitzgerald himself said about Gatsby.
所以菲茨杰拉德后来对一位朋友说，这位朋友抱怨盖茨比，说：我搞不懂他究竟是谁。
So Fitzgerald later said to a friend, the friend had complained about Gatsby and said, I can't work out who he is.
菲茨杰拉德说：你说得对，盖茨比确实模糊不清、支离破碎。
And Fitzgerald said, You're right about Gatsby being blurred and patchy.
我从未在任何时刻真正看清过他。
I never at any one time saw him clear myself.
他一开始是我认识的一个人，然后就变成了我自己。
He started as one man I knew, and then changed into myself.
而他认识的那个人，你知道他是谁吧，你已经做过一些调查了。
And the man he knew, you know who this bloke is, you've done some digging on this.
我觉得这太有趣了。
I thought this was so interesting.
所以，菲茨杰拉德在长岛居住时的邻居是一个叫马克斯·格拉赫的人，他曾是一战期间美国远征军的上校。
So, the Fitzgerald's neighbour, while living on Long Island, was a guy called Max Gerlach, and he'd been a major in the American Expeditionary Forces during World War One.
但后来他成为了一名绅士式私酒贩，为纽约犹太黑帮头目阿诺德·罗斯坦经营地下酒吧，我们稍后会更多谈到他。
But then he later became a gentleman bootlegger who operated speakeasies for the Jewish mob boss in New York, Arnold Rothstein, and we'll come to him more later.
他过着百万富翁般的生活。
He lived like a millionaire.
他通过举办盛大的派对来炫耀自己的财富。
He kind of flaunted his wealth by having massive parties.
他以从不重复穿同一件衬衫而闻名，这一点正是盖茨比的细节。
He famously never wore the same shirt twice, which is a detail about Gatsby.
而且他似乎管每个人都叫‘老兄’，就像
And apparently, he referred to everyone as old sport, which is like
哦，所以他真的很像盖茨比。
Oh, so he's very Gatsby like.
非常、非常、非常像盖茨比。
Very, very, very Gatsby.
他还经常编造一些荒诞不经的关于自己的传说。
And he used to spread very outlandish myths about himself.
比如，他曾说他是德皇的后裔。
Like, he once said, I'm a descendant of the Kaiser.
我的意思是，这简直处处都是盖茨比的影子，太有意思了。
So, I mean, that has Gatsby written all over Totally, So it interesting.
然后我们在结尾处那个非常著名的场景中第一次亲眼见到盖茨比。
And then we first see Gatsby physically in this very very famous scene at the end
当第一个
of when the first
我的意思是，塔比莎，你来读一点吧。
he's I mean, Tabitha, you wanna read a little bit of it.
他出去了，尼克看到他站在那里，仰望着星空，摆出一种非常难忘而奇特的姿势。
He's gone outside, and he's Nick sees him, he's standing looking at the stars, and looking up at the heavens, and in this very, very memorable and strange kind of posture.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
非常奇怪。
Very odd.
书中写道：一个身影从我邻居豪宅的阴影中浮现出来，双手插在口袋里，凝视着如银色胡椒般的繁星。
So it's written, a figure had emerged from the shadow of my neighbor's mansion and was standing with his hands in his pockets regarding the silver pepper of the stars.
他那悠闲的动作和双脚稳稳站在草坪上的姿态，暗示着这正是盖茨比先生出来确定自己能拥有多少这片本地星空。
Something in his leisurely movements and the secure position of his feet upon the lawn suggested that it was mister Gatsby himself come out to determine what share was his of our local heavens.
然后，最精彩的部分来了。
And then this is the amazing bit.
他以一种奇特的方式向黑暗的水面伸出了双臂。
He stretched out his arms towards the dark water in a curious way.
尽管我离他很远，但我敢发誓他正在颤抖。
And far as I was from him, I could have sworn he was trembling.
我不由得朝海的方向望去，除了远处一点微小的绿光，什么也看不清，那可能是码头的尽头。
Involuntarily, I glanced seaward and distinguished nothing except a single green light, minute and far away, that might have been the end of a dock.
这盏绿灯贯穿了整本书，指引着他，而绿色这个颜色也一再出现，对吧？
That green light is the thing that guides him throughout the whole book, and the color green recurs again and again, doesn't it?
即使对《了不起的盖茨比》了解不多的人，也都知道那盏绿灯。
Think people who don't know much about The Great Gatsby, everyone's heard of the green light.
正如你所说，它的含义很难确切界定，它几乎是一种无望的渴望的化身，任何读过这本书的人都能将自己的希望与渴望投射到它身上。
And its meaning, as you say, it's hard to pinpoint, you know, it's kind of the embodiment of hopeless yearning, and it's something that anyone who reads the book can transpose their own hopes and desires onto.
它象征着渴望，不是吗？
It's symbolic of longing, isn't it?
是的，绿色是金钱的颜色，是嫉妒的颜色，但正如我们所发现的，这盏绿灯也代表着黛西·布坎南。
Yeah, green, the colour of money, of envy, but the green light, as we discover, is kind of also Daisy Buchanan.
对吧？
Right?
他一直渴望着黛西·布坎南。
And he's this yearning for Daisy Buchanan.
无论如何，他们第一次见面是在那个派对上，尼克和盖茨比。
Anyway, they first meet in person, Nick and Gatsby, that party.
那就是我觉得我们开头读得或表演得极其出色的那段，而他实际上从未被详细描述过，他几乎就像是尼克的一个化身，不是吗？
That's the passage that I think we read or performed so magnificently at the beginning of And he's never really physically described, he's just almost like a version of Nick, isn't he?
所以他比三十岁大一两岁，举止优雅，但总觉得虚无缥缈。
So he's a year or two over 30, he's elegant, but he sort of feels insubstantial.
实际上，奇怪的是，当尼克和他交谈时，尼克常说盖茨比无话可说。
And actually, weirdly, when Nick talks to him, Nick says often Gatsby had nothing to say.
他总是空无一物。
There was always nothing there.
他就像一个人的轮廓，不是吗？
He's like an outline of a man, isn't he?
是的
Yeah.
他试图为别人填补这种空缺，而不是让别人自己对他形成判断。
And he kind of tries to fill it in for other people rather than letting people make their own judgement of him.
他讲了许多荒诞离奇的故事。
And he tells all these wild fantastical stories.
所以他告诉尼克，他是……他试图向尼克介绍自己。
So he says, I'm the son of he's trying to tell Nick about himself.
他说，我是美国中西部一些富有人士的儿子，现在他们都去世了。
He says, I'm the son of some wealthy people in the Middle West, all dead now.
我在美国长大，但在牛津接受教育，因为我的祖先很多代都在那里受过教育。
I was brought up in America, but educated at Oxford because all my ancestors had been educated there for many years.
之后，我像一位年轻的王公一样生活在欧洲各大首都——巴黎、威尼斯、罗马，收集珠宝，主要是红宝石，猎捕大型动物，偶尔画画，只为取悦自己，并试图忘记很久以前发生在我身上的一件非常悲伤的事。
After that, I lived like a young Raja in all the capitals of Europe, Paris, Venice, Rome, collecting jewels, chiefly rubies, hunting big game, painting a little, things for myself only, and trying to forget something very sad that happened to me long ago.
那是他说过的唯一一句真心话，因为那件悲剧正是他对黛西的爱。
That's the one honest thing that he said, because that one tragic thing was his love for Daisy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以盖茨比对黛西的爱——尼克的女朋友乔丹·贝克告诉他整个故事，对吧？
So the love for Daisy Nick's girlfriend, Jordan Baker, tells him the whole story, doesn't she?
她基本上说，你知道，盖茨比曾是一名军官。
She basically says, you know, Gatsby was an officer.
这非常符合菲茨杰拉德和泽尔达的风格。
It's this is very Fitzgerald and Zelda.
确实如此。
It is.
盖茨比是一名年轻军官，而黛西是来自肯塔基州路易斯维尔的一位高贵、富有的女孩。
Gatsby was a young officer, and Daisy was a kind of posh girl, rich girl from Louisville, Kentucky.
他爱上了她。
He fell in love with her.
他追求过她。
He courted her.
他被派往海外，但她的家人不让她去送他。
He was posted overseas, but her family wouldn't let her go and see him off.
他太穷了。
He was too poor.
她思念着他，但最终放下了，嫁给了汤姆·布坎南。
She pined, she got over it, she married this guy Tom Buchanan.
那么问题来了，盖茨比在这期间一直在做什么？
And so the question is, what's Gatsby been doing in the interim?
他为什么要在海湾对面买下那栋房子？
Why has he taken the house across the bay?
他是怎么赚到这么多钱的？
Is his how has he got all his money?
是的。
Yeah.
他的计划是什么？
And what is his plan?
这种对绿灯的渴望究竟意味着什么？
What is this kind of yearning for this green light all about?
哇。
Wow.
这些引人入胜的问题的答案即将揭晓，不仅对尼克，也对我们听众而言，就在片刻之后。
The answers to these intriguing questions are coming for Nick, and also for our listeners in just a moment.
但在那之前，让我们以真正的20世纪20年代风格，稍作休息，听听蒂·埃克尔伯格医生和其他我们喜爱的广告商的广告。
But first, in true nineteen twenties style, we'll take a break to hear from Doctor TJ Eckleberg and some of our other beloved advertisers.
好的。
Alright.
广告后见。
See you after the break.
欢迎回来，多米尼克。
Welcome back, Dominic.
你答应过我们要解答关于盖茨比财富和计划的所有这些迫切问题。
You promised us answers to all these burning questions about Gatsby's money and his plans.
当然，读过这本书的人知道接下来会发生什么。
And obviously, people who've read the book will know what's coming.
但对其他人来说，请容我们慢慢道来。
But for everyone else, indulge us.
全部说出来吧。
Tell all.
汤姆·布坎南曾一度——他实际上是盖茨比的情敌——称他为‘无名之辈，无根之人’。
Tom Buchanan at one point, who's actually Gatsby's love rival, describes him as mister nobody from nowhere.
这个说法充分体现了汤姆的势利和傲慢。
And it's phrase that says a lot about Tom's snobbery and his arrogance.
但他其实说对了。
But he's actually right.
盖茨比确实是个无名之辈，无根之人。
Gatsby is mister nobody from nowhere.
他原本是来自北达科他州的詹姆斯·盖茨。
He's originally James Gats from North Dakota.
我们在读到书的三分之二左右时才发现了这一点。
We discovered this about two thirds of the way through the book.
是的。
Yeah.
来自北达科他州，你几乎找不到比这更闭塞、离大都市和繁华灯火更遥远、背景更平凡的地方了。
And coming from North Dakota, you could not find a place in The United States that's more provincial, more far from the the metropolis and the bright lights, a more banal kind of background.
但有趣的是，北达科他州在禁酒令时期是来自加拿大的非法酒精运输的关键通道。
But also North Dakota, interestingly, it was a key kind of pipeline for illicit alcohol during prohibition from Canada.
因此，他来自北达科他州这一点，本身就暗示了他参与了私酒贩卖和走私，这恰恰与汤姆之前的预测一致。
So right away, the fact that he comes from North Dakota is a little signifier that he's involved in bootlegging and smuggling, just as actually Tom had predicted.
汤姆确实很糟糕，是个糟糕的人，但他对盖茨比的判断却是对的。
So Tom is horrible and just a terrible person, but he's also right about Gatsby.
我们发现，盖茨比的父母是路德宗农民。
Gatsby's parents, we discover, were Lutheran farmers.
他曾在明尼苏达州上过大学，就是那种，你知道的，F。
He went to college in Minnesota, like, you know, F.
当然，斯科特·菲茨杰拉德在明尼苏达，但他退学了。
Scott Fitzgerald, of course, in Minnesota, but he dropped out.
有一天，他沿着苏必利尔湖的湖岸散步，看到一艘游艇遇险。
And one day, he was walking along Lake Superior, along the sort of the lake shore, And he saw a yacht in trouble.
这艘游艇属于一位名叫丹·科迪的铜业大亨。
And this yacht belonged to a copper tycoon called Dan Cody.
丹·科迪这个名字显然是虚构的，但他的姓氏‘科迪’，以及他通过在西部开采铜矿在边疆致富的经历，让人联想到水牛比尔，因为水牛比尔的
Now Dan Cody's name Dan Cody is obviously an invented character, but his name Cody, and the fact that he has made his money on the frontier from copper in the West recalls Buffalo Bill because Buffalo Bill's
哦，那真是个绝佳的
Oh, that's a great was
科迪。
Cody.
所以，丹·科迪这个名字本身就告诉你，他身处西部边疆，靠那里发了财
So the very name of Dan Cody tells you that he's out there on the frontier in the West and he's made
他的确如此。
his Yeah.
科迪收留了他，因为他救了游艇，几乎把他当成了宠物和门生。
Cody adopts him because he saved the yacht, almost as a pet and a protege.
抱歉。
Sorry.
有很多理论认为他们可能是恋人之类的，但我认为那是
There are all these kind of theories that they're sort of lovers or whatever, but I think that's
非常
very much
投射。
projection.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以盖茨上了船。
So Gats goes aboard.
随着时间的推移，他给自己改了一个听起来更显赫的名字——杰伊·盖茨比。
And over time, he renames himself a more what seems like a more prestigious name, Jay Gatsby.
不过，我认为对于1920年代的美国读者来说，'杰伊'这个名字让人联想到美国历史上最著名的杰伊——杰伊·古尔德，他是19世纪70年代和80年代一个腐败的铁路大亨、金融家和强盗资本家。
Although that name too, I think the name Jay to an American reader in the 1920s, the most famous Jay in American history was a guy called Jay Gould, who had been a corrupt railroad magnate and financier and robber baron in the 1870s and 1880s.
而'杰伊·古尔德'这个名字已经成为巨额财富掩盖巨大腐败与欺诈的代名词。
And he had become a byword, Jay Gould, for vast wealth concealing immense corruption and crookedness.
因此，'杰伊·盖茨比'这个名字
So again, the name Jay Gatsby
是的。
Yeah.
对20年代的美国读者来说，这其实是一个明显的暗示，对吧？
Kind of is a is a hit is a clue to American readers in the twenties, right?
是的。
Yeah.
因为还有一点是，我们始终没有确切知道他究竟是如何赚到钱的。
Because also the thing is, we never do find out exactly how he does make his money.
而且你知道，他以为自己在科迪死后能继承他的数百万财富，但最终全都落到了他的情妇艾拉手里。
And, you know, there are all sorts of he he thinks he's going to be inheriting Cody's millions after he dies, but it all ends up going to his mistress, Ella.
因此，盖茨比很可能涉足了某种犯罪活动，比如私酒贩卖、操纵比赛，或者与黑手党有关，因为整本书中都充满了对此的黑暗暗示；他不断有管家过来对他说‘芝加哥的科林来了’。
So instead, Gatsby, the implication is goes into crime of some kind, bootlegging, maybe fixing, maybe something to do with the mafia because there are all these kind of dark allusions to it throughout the book because he constantly has butlers coming up to him saying, Chicago's Colin.
他总是说：‘不，现在不行。’
And he sort of says, no, not now.
现在不行。
Not now.
顺便说一句，你的美式口音太棒了。
Great American accent, by the way, there.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你在开篇的朗读中已经展示过一部分了。
Well, I mean, you had a a a sampler of it in the opening reading.
但对我来说，他有趣的地方其实并不在于他是个骗子。
The interesting thing about him is not really that he's a crook, though, to me.
是的，他的灵魂并不腐败，他对尼克也绝对不狡诈。
Yeah, he's not crooked at his soul, he's definitely not crooked to Nick.
不，他不是，我明白。
No, no he's not, I get it.
不过他确实给尼克讲了一些夸大其词的故事，不是吗？
Although he does tell Nick some tall stories, doesn't he?
他还试图拉拢尼克参与他那些古怪又可疑的计划。
And he does try to recruit Nick into his sort of funny, dodgy schemes.
但关于他最有趣的地方，也是每个人读完这本书后都会记住的，就是盖茨比是个梦想家，执着于重塑自我的事业。
But the interesting thing about him, the thing that everyone takes away from the book, is that Gatsby is a dreamer, who's committed to this project of remaking himself.
是的，通过
Yeah, By basically
脱胎换骨，重塑身份，这成为美国小说中一个非常熟悉的原型。
shedding his skin and taking on a new identity, that becomes a very familiar archetype in American fiction.
所以我认为，比如最著名的例子之一就是《天才雷普利》中的雷普利。
So I think, for example, one of the most famous ones is Ripley in The Talented Mr Ripley.
《天才雷普利》有那么多情节。
So many episodes of The Talented Mr Ripley.
完全正确。
Completely.
或者就像我们后面讨论的，在后续剧集中要谈到的《秘密历史》——唐娜·塔特的这本书，这些角色都在扮演着并非真实的自己。
Or as we'll come onto, when we come to it in the later episode, The Secret History, Donna Tartt's book, these characters who are playing are being something they're not.
我认为，这种角色伪装的主题在现代美国文学中非常普遍。
It's a really, really common theme in American in modern American writing, I think.
他为自己创造了一个角色，关键在于，他认为这个角色会吸引黛西。
And he has invented a character for himself, crucially, that he thinks will appeal to Daisy.
因为就像菲茨杰拉德本人对他的初恋一样，盖茨比从未从最初对黛西的失望中恢复过来。
Because just like Fitzgerald himself with his first love, Gatsby has never ever recovered from that initial disappointment with Daisy.
他所做的一切，都是为了把自己塑造成一个他认为能赢得黛西芳心的富人形象。
Everything that he's doing is about turning himself into the kind of rich character that he thinks will win Daisy's heart.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他之所以买下那栋房子，是因为它正对着黛西家的海湾。
So, I mean, he he gets the house that he gets because it's across the bay from Daisy.
后来发现，他举办这些盛大的派对，是希望有一天黛西会来参加，但他从根本上误解了老钱与新钱之间的鸿沟，因为他的派对充满了新贵气息。
And it's revealed that he throws these massive parties in the hope that Daisy will come to one of them one day, fundamentally actually misunderstanding there, the chasm between old money and new money because his parties are very new money.
当黛西终于参加了一次派对时，她对这一切感到略微震惊。
And when Daisy finally does go to one, she's slightly appalled by it all.
但表面上看，这确实有种浪漫色彩，可以说是一种浪漫的理想主义。
But so there's something very apparently romantic about that, you know, it's a kind of romantic idealism to it.
但随着我们越来越深入这本书，我们会发现这根本一点也不浪漫，反而更像一种执念。
But the further we get into the book, we kind of see that it's not very romantic at all, because it's kind of more of an obsession.
他对黛西的感情有点……不健康。
His feelings for Daisy are slightly, you know, unhealthy.
他的一切生活都是围绕着这些感情构建的。
He's built a whole life around them.
这一切都是关于追求一个梦想。
And it's all about the pursuit of a dream.
是的，与其说是关于黛西本人，对吧？
Yeah, rather than about Daisy herself, right?
这是关于对黛西的理想化形象。
It's about the idealised vision of Daisy.
这是一个有缺陷的理想。
It's a flawed ideal.
他根本没有看到黛西真实的模样。
He doesn't actually see Daisy for what she is.
她只是财富、优雅、地位的象征，所有这些他童年时渴望却始终无法触及的东西。
She's just a symbol of like wealth, sophistication, status, all the things that he wanted as a child, but have always been beyond his reach.
在实现这个梦想的过程中——从他们初次重逢，到他们的爱情逐渐展开，你越来越感觉到，闪光的并不都是金子。
And in the realisation of that dream, from the moment that they've at first reunited and then as their kind of love affair unfolds, you increasingly get the sense that it's, you know, all that glitters isn't gold.
这并不是他所期望的样子，他试图去弥补这一点，努力让这段感情成为只有在远方才能实现的完美理想。
It's not quite what he hoped it would be, and he's sort of trying to get round that and trying to make it this perfect ideal that it could only be from afar exactly.
在
In the
所以这引出了一个问题：这本书究竟意味着什么。
So this takes us to question of what the book actually, in capital letters, means.
如果有的话。
If anything.
没错，有趣的是，当这本书首次出版时，盖茨比这本书。
Right, well here's the interesting thing, because when it was first released, Gatsby had this Gatsby.
我的意思是，我称他为盖茨比这一点本身就非常敏感。
I mean the fact that I've called him Gatsby is so sensitive.
菲茨杰拉德认为这本书一定会让他声名大噪，会成为一部杰作。
Fitzgerald thought that this book would absolutely make his name, that this would be the kind of masterpiece.
但实际上，早期的评论家都说，这书并不怎么样。
And actually, most early reviewers said, it's not that great.
而且他们说这本书非常肤浅。
And actually, they said it's very superficial.
伟大的批评家和讽刺作家H.
The great critic and satirist H.
L.
L.
门肯曾 famously 说它不过是一个被美化的轶事，而我现在不认为任何人还会这么说，尤其是那些在英语文学课上学习这部作品的数十万青少年。
Mencken famously said it's a glorified anecdote, which I don't think anybody would say now, not certainly not all these sort of hundreds of thousands of people studying it as teenagers in their English literature classes.
是的。
Yeah.
这是被研究得最多的著作之一，我在准备这期节目时发现，相关的内容简直无穷无尽，确实如此。
It's one of the most written about study, I mean, preparing for this episode, I mean, never ending Exactly.
关于这部作品的
Things about this
另外，我想提一下几个特别引人注目的方面。
And just to pick up on a couple of things that really strike you about it.
首先，我认为大多数人立刻感受到的是，它堪称一幅描绘1920年代现代性氛围的精彩绝伦的画卷。
So first of all, I think what most people take straight away is that it's actually just a brilliant, brilliant window onto the sense of modernity of the 1920s.
所以，那些科技、汽车等等一切。
So the technology and the cars and all of that.
而且我认为，你知道，我读到当时一位评论家说，它描绘了一个大多数人无法感同身受的世界，因为那其实是美国一个极度贫困的时期，等等。
And I think, you know, I read one reviewer from the time who said that it was a it described a world that most people couldn't relate to because this is actually a period of great poverty in America, etcetera.
但从今天这个安全的，你知道，距离来看，我们能否理解它并不重要。
But from the safe, you know, distance of today, it doesn't matter to us that we can't understand it.
这真是美妙极了，得以窥视一个，你知道，超越时代的世界。
It's glorious looking into a world, you know, out of time.
正如你所说，它非常现代，你知道，非常时髦，所有角色穿的衣服都是如此。而且，你知道，还有电灯。
And as you say, it is so modern, you know, it's very fashionable, all the clothes that all the characters wear, But also, you know, it's electric lights.
里面有电话。
It's got telephones.
盖茨比有快艇。
Gatsby's got speedboats.
他还有一架水上飞机。
He's got a seaplane.
你知道，这部电影极大地迎合了这一点。
You know, it's all about, you know, the movie massively plays into this.
快车、加油站、通勤火车。
Fast cars, gas stations, commuter trains.
盖茨比本人也是一个非常非常现代的人物。
And Gatsby himself is a very, very modern figure.
你知道，他是个私酒贩子，债券市场投机者。
You know, he's a bootlegger, a bond market speculator.
这同时也是一本关于新兴大众媒体和消费主义的书。
And it's also a book of the new mass media and and consumerism.
报纸、杂志、汽车、广告。
Newspapers, magazines, cars, advertisements.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
关于那个。
Of that.
关于哪个。
Of which.
我们之前提到过，菲茨杰拉德非常喜爱约瑟夫·康拉德。
So we mentioned before how Fitzgerald loved Joseph Conrad.
另一位有时让我联想到菲茨杰拉德的作家，是因为他描绘这些富有角色及其情感纠葛的方式，那就是亨利·詹姆斯——另一位伟大的美国作家。
The other writer that sometimes Fitzgerald reminds me of a little bit, because of the way he charts all the these very rich characters and their kind of love affairs, is Henry James, another great American writer.
但如果你读过的话，似乎康拉德和亨利·詹姆斯与菲茨杰拉德之间存在着巨大的鸿沟。
But if you read I mean, seems to be a massive chasm between Henry James and Joseph Conrad on one side, and Fitzgerald on the other.
他的作品似乎属于另一个时代，尽管时间跨度并不大，但仿佛时间加速了，我们突然进入了电话、鸡尾酒和这类事物的世界。
His books seem to belong to well, they do belong to a different century, even though the time lapse is not that great, it's as though time has really speeded up, and suddenly we're in a world of telephones and cocktails and all of this kind of thing.
但与此同时，我觉得我所发现的有趣之处在于，这是一本关于当下的书——它设定在二十年代，但所有角色却始终在回望过去。
And yet at the same time, I think one of the things that I find so interesting about it is it's a book about it's very present minded, it's set in the twenties, But all the characters are looking backwards the whole time.
我的意思是，即使是像汤姆·布坎南这样缺乏反思的人，我们也立刻得知，他一直在幻想自己大学时代一场再也无法挽回的橄榄球比赛。
I mean, even somebody as unreflective as Tom Buchanan, we're told right away that basically, he's constantly dreaming of some irrecoverable football game that he played at college.
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