读书会：让我们聊聊艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》

这是个很好的观点。

That's an excellent point.

对我来说，框架叙事是这本书中最有趣的部分之一。

And for me, the frame narrative was one of the most interesting things about the book.

当然，书中发生了许多戏剧性的情节，但框架叙事让我意识到，嗯。

Of course, there's a lot of drama that happens, but the frame narrative made me think, okay.

艾米莉·勃朗特不仅仅是在讲述一个动荡而有毒的爱情故事。

Emily Bronte is not just telling a tumultuous toxic love story.

她是在做某种更深层的事情。

She is doing something.

我觉得，正如你所指出的，这个故事本身非常紧凑和浓缩。

And I feel like, as you pointed out, the story itself is so condensed and contracted.

而叙述方式却如此展开。

And then the storytelling is so expanded.

这仅仅是我作为读者的个人感受。

This is just who I am as a reader.

我喜欢那种让人产生怀疑的叙事方式。

I love a narrative that makes you doubt.

不仅仅是不可靠的叙述者，而是那种真正需要你深入探究、仔细推敲的叙事手法。

Not necessarily just an unreliable narrator, but like a storytelling convention that really requires you to probe and poke around.

我觉得这里有一个元素，我特别特别喜欢。

And I feel like that was an element here that I really, really enjoyed.

我也觉得内莉有点阴险。

I also found Nelly to be kind of sinister.

正如你提到的，她照顾的所有人都死了。

As you mentioned, like, all of her charges kind of die.

但我的意思是，不是‘有点死’。

But she is I mean, not kind of die.

他们是真的死了。

They do die.

但她作为

But she as

我猜凯西活到了最后，年轻的凯西活到了结局。

a guess Kathy survives to the young Kathy survives to the end.

但是

But

但随后她把自己定位为仅仅是叙述者，而她在故事中却拥有极大的能动性。

But then she herself is positioning herself as just the storyteller, but she has so much agency in the story itself.

她是那个来回传递信件、回应或不回应的人。

She is the person shepherding letters back and forth or responding or not responding.

她是那个掌握信息并决定是否分享的人。

She is the person who has the knowledge and can make the choice whether to share it or not.

我觉得她轻描淡写地淡化自己的角色，这种做法有点阴险。

And I found that kind of sinister, the way she underplays her own part.

我也觉得她刚来家里时对年幼的希斯克利夫非常恶劣。

I also see her being horrible to to the young Heathcliff when he first comes to the house.

而且我认为，让她显得可靠的部分原因在于，她承认自己错了，而这本书中的其他角色并不都能做到这一点。

And I think part of what makes it her reliable is that she admits to being wrong, which not all the characters in this book can do.

但我感觉这本书里没有一个人是完全令人同情的。

But I feel like there's not a single person in this book who is wholly sympathetic.

好的。

Alright.

所以这就是这部小说的框架结构。

So that's the frame structure of the novel.

接下来我们来深入探讨一下人物。

Let's dive into the characters next.

但在那之前，我们先休息一下。

But before we do that, let's take a quick break.

我是贾德森·琼斯。

I'm Judson Jones.

我是《纽约时报》的记者兼气象学家。

I'm a reporter and meteorologist at The New York Times.

二十多年来，我一直报道极端天气，而由于气候变化，极端天气正变得越来越严重，及时准确的天气信息也变得越来越重要。

For about two decades, I've been covering extreme weather, which is getting worse because of climate change, And it's becoming more important to get timely and accurate weather information.

因此，我们发送这些定制化的简报，提前最多三天告知您可能影响您或您关心的地方的极端天气。

That's why we send these customized newsletters letting you know up to three days in advance about extreme weather that could impact you or a place you care about.

在《纽约时报》，您可以相信我们发布的每一条内容都基于我们所能获得的最准确、经过验证的科学信息，因为我们希望您能够实时做出关于如何安排生活的决策。

At The Times, you can be confident that everything we publish is based off the most accurate scientific and vetted information available to us because we want you to be able to make real time decisions about how to go about your life.

这种工作让订阅《纽约时报》变得如此有价值，也是您支持基于事实的独立新闻的方式。

This is the kind of work that makes subscribing to The New York Times so valuable, and it's how you can support fact based independent journalism.

如果您想订阅，请前往 nytimes.com/subscribe。

So if you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

我们回来了。

And we're back.

这是《书评》播客。

This is the Book Review Podcast.

我是MJ·富兰克林。

I'm MJ Franklin.

我与萨迪·斯坦、尼玛·贾罗米和詹·哈兰一起，他们都是书评部的编辑，我们正在讨论《呼啸山庄》。

I'm with Sadie Stein, Nima Jaromey, and Jen Harlan, all editors here at the book review, and we're talking about Wuthering Heights.

在我们回到演播室的对话之前，我想分享一些来自我们书评社区读者的评论。

Before we jump back to our conversation in the studio, I just wanted to share some reader comments from our book review community.

目前，纽约时报网站上有一篇题为‘读书俱乐部：与书评一起阅读艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》’的文章。

Right now, we have an article up on the New York Times headlined book club, read Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte with the book review.

来自世界各地的读者正在评论区讨论这部小说，这里是我特别喜欢的几条评论。

Readers from all over are discussing the novel in the comment section there, and here are just a few that I loved.

来自路易斯安那州的史蒂文写道：《呼啸山庄》可能是有史以来最伟大的一部独立小说。

Steven from Louisiana writes, Wuthering Heights is probably the greatest one off novel ever written.

它也是经典哥特小说的典范。

It is also the epitome of the classic Gothic novel.

小说中人类同情与残酷的复杂情节，交织成一幅令人久久难以忘怀的画卷，凸显了人性的残酷。

The plot's complexity of human compassion and cruelty is weaved into a tapestry that leaves the reader haunted by humankind's brutalities.

来自康涅狄格州的拉拉写道：我很着迷也很高兴，到了2026年，《呼啸山庄》又重新流行起来了。

Lara from Connecticut writes, I am fascinated and delighted that in 2026, Wuthering Heights is having a moment.

在我看来，一个在荒原壮丽、真实、粗犷而原始的美景中长大的少女，被社会与时尚的肤浅浮华所诱惑，这一主题正是人类存在张力的核心。

To me, the theme of the young girl raised in the dramatic, real, rugged, raw beauty of the Moors, seduced by the superficial and artificial glamour of the society and fashion, is at the core of the tension of what it is to be human.

还有最后一条，一位署名为Bee的欧洲读者留下了一段较长的评论，但其中有一小段我特别喜欢。

And then one more, someone writing as Bee from Europe had a longer comment, but there was a snippet that I really loved.

那是：在我第一次读完《呼啸山庄》多年后，我才终于明白自己最初为何如此被它吸引。

And that is, only years later since I first read Wuthering Heights, I finally realized the reason why I was so attracted to it in the first place.

那是我发现，如果人们不够谨慎，就会创造出属于自己的内心地狱。

It was the discovery that people, if they are not careful, are able to create their own personal mental hell.

一种比任何外部因素所能制造的都更强大、更具破坏性的地狱。

A hell more powerful and destructive to yourself than any external factor could conjure.

所以，这些都是几条评论。

So those are a few comments.

你们可以在线上继续这个讨论。

You can continue that conversation online.

但现在，我们回到演播室的讨论中。

But now, back to our discussion in the studio.

好的。

Alright.

重置。

Reset.

在休息前，我们正在讨论这部小说的框架叙事。

Before the break, we were chatting about the frame narrative of the novel.

现在我想转向我们核心的恋人——凯瑟琳和希斯克利夫。

Now I wanna turn to our central lovers, Katherine and Heathcliff.

我们是不是先简单介绍一下，希斯克利夫刚来的时候，因为恩肖先生非常喜欢他，所以他一度有机会像家里其他人一样被抚养、受教育、吃得好。

Should we set up just a little bit that Heathcliff comes in and for a while, because mister Earnshaw likes him so much, there he has a kind of moment where he could be brought up, educated, cared for, fed well, like everyone else in the house.

然后，我认为后来恩肖先生去世了，凯瑟琳的哥哥辛德利接管了家，而他并不喜欢希斯克利夫。

And then, I believe what happens, mister Earnshaw dies, and Catherine's brother, Hindley, takes over, and he does not like Heathcliff.

基本上，希斯克利夫被迫在家中当仆人，不再受到良好的教养，一切对他来说都变了。

And, basically, Heathcliff is forced to live in the house as a servant and not well brought up anymore, and everything changes for him.

这时的他虽然还有些粗野，但任何将来成为体面人的可能性都彻底消失了。

And this is when he he is a little rough around the edges, but any chance he had of kind of being a genteel person when he grows up is gone.

这在某种意义上，就是他的反派起源故事。

And this is kind of his villain origin story in a weird way.

这使他在第二部分中表现得像一个邪恶的科学家。

And it leads him, I think, in the second half to act like an evil scientist.

所以基本上，在第二部分中，每个人都有了孩子。

So basically, in the second half, what happens is everybody has kids.

凯瑟琳在分娩时去世，而这一怀孕情节在文中并未明确向读者交代。

Catherine dies in childbirth with a pregnancy that is not really signaled to the reader.

这真的完全出人意料。

That comes out truly out of nowhere.

以至于你会怀疑艾米莉·勃朗特是否了解怀孕是怎么回事。

To the point where you kind of wonder if Emily Bronte knew how pregnancy work.

因为不仅有一个，而是有两个情节，人物都处于晚期妊娠状态，却没人注意到？

Because there's not one, but two where they seem to be an advanced pregnancy and no no one's noticed?

没人

No one

对此有任何察觉。

has any idea.

而辛德利，也就是哥哥，有个孩子，叫哈林顿。

And and Hindley, the brother, has a kid, Harrington.

但辛德利是个酒鬼，后来去世了。

But Hindley, is an alcoholic, dies.

作为报复，同时也作为一种实验，希斯克利夫娶了一个叫伊莎贝拉的女人。

And basically, as a form of revenge, but also a form of experimentation, Heathcliff marries a woman named Isabella.

他也有一个孩子。

He also has a kid

她是凯瑟琳的嫂子。

Who's Catherine's sister-in-law.

她是凯瑟琳的嫂子。

Who's Catherine's sister-in-law.

一团糟。

Messy.

一团糟。

Messy.

他基本上把这两个男孩带在身边，说其中一个是我血脉的后人，另一个是我死对头的后代。

And they basically he takes these two boys, and he's like, one of them is descended from me, and the other one is descended from my archrival.

我要反过来操作，来证明一个关于天性与教养的问题。

And I'm basically gonna flip it around and prove a thing about nature versus nurture.

关于希斯克利夫这个人物，我发现这一点特别有趣。

This is a thing that I found so interesting about Heathcliff as a figure.

因为一开始，你确实会对他产生同情，因为他被带了进来。

Because you, for a little bit, do sympathize with him in that he was brought in.

他别无选择。

He had no choice.

他只是一个孩子。

He was a kid.

然后他被故意贬低，剥夺了受教育的机会。

And then he is intentionally degraded, deprived of an education.

不仅仅是教育，连食物都得不到。

Not just education, but like a food.

他被反复殴打。

He is beaten repeatedly.

他们让他站在角落，而其他人则吃晚餐。

They make him stand in the corner while everyone else has dinner.

随着他们长大，凯茜进入更高阶层的社会，他则被羞辱。

And then he's sort of humiliated as as they grow older and Kathy moves into more elevated social

圈子。

circles.

没错。

Exactly.

但这种压迫从未停止。

But it's unrelenting.

所以你希望看到他崛起。

So you want to see him rise up.

但他开始折磨周围的人，包括孩子。

But then he starts kind of torturing everybody around him, including children.

而且在早期，有一个场景是在

And early on, there's a scene before

还有狗。

And dogs.

还有狗。

And dogs.

早期，有一个场景，有

Early on, there's a scene There's a

这本书里有很多狗。

lot of dogs in this book.

很多女性，

Lot of women,

很多狗。

a lot of dogs.

伤害就是杀死那些小狗。

Hurts is is killing those puppies.

很多。

A lot.

是的。

Yeah.

糟糕的

Bad

事情，反社会人格，但狗

things psychopathy, but Dogs

在这本书里。

in this book.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我们总打断你。

We keep cutting you off.

只是因为，作为一个角色，他非常暴力，你希望看到他崛起并狠狠击败他的敌人。

It's just that, like, as a figure, he's so violent, and you want to see him rise up and and dunk on his enemies.

但对于真正的孩子来说，有一个场景是我觉得辛德利喝醉了，把小赫顿摔了下来，而希斯克利夫接住了他。

But then for literal children, and there's a scene where I think, like, Hindley is drunk, and he drops young Heroton, and Heathcliff catches him.

然后内莉发现希斯克利夫意识到自己救了敌人的孩子，短暂地考虑过是否该把孩子的头撞在地上。

And then Nelly sees that Heathcliff realized that he had saved the child of his enemy and briefly considered whether or not he should smash his head on the ground.

这很难读下去。

And it's hard to read.

这种暴力与书中深厚的爱情形成了鲜明对比。

And that violence contrasts the great love in the book.

我认为这正是希斯克利夫和凯瑟琳如此悲剧的部分原因，也可能正是他们彼此吸引的原因之一：在凯瑟琳父母还活着的时候，他们曾拥有过一段极其美好的友谊和自由，那时他们并不试图——或者至少没有很努力地——去迎合社会的期望。

I think this is part of what's so tragic about both Heathcliff and Catherine, and also maybe part of why they're so drawn to each other, is that there is this moment while Catherine's parents are still alive, where they have this really beautiful friendship and this beautiful freedom where they're not trying to or at least not trying very hard to comply to societal expectations.

他们肆意奔跑。

They run wild.

他们整天待在一起。

They spend all their time together.

他们在荒野上游荡。

They're wandering around the moors.

随着他们长大，虐待开始加诸于他们身上，同时社会对如何做一个淑女或绅士的期望也压了下来，而他们两人都无法适应这些规范。

And then as they get older and this abuse starts to be heaped on them and also the the societal expectations that of the proper way to be a lady or to be a gentleman, and they neither one of them can conform to that.

即使凯瑟琳在这方面更成功一些。

Even Catherine's more successful at it.

她显然是历史上最美丽的女子，漫步在英格兰的荒野上，无人能抗拒她的魅力。

She is apparently the most stunningly beautiful woman to ever walk the moors of England, and no one can resist her.

她确实融入了林顿家，嫁给了那位富有的邻居。

And she does infiltrate the the Lentons and marries the wealthy neighbor.

但即使她身处那座宅邸、身为庄园主妇时，她依然被内心那股无法被驯服的野性所吸引。

But even when she's in that house and she's supposed to be the lady of the manor, she still is drawn to this kind of wilder side of her nature that cannot be tamed.

她越是试图压抑这种本性，它就越会从内部真正地吞噬她。

And the more she tries to suppress that, the more it literally, like, eats her alive from the inside.

然而，这本书中充满了令人不安的内容。

Yet there's so much that's upsetting in the book.

有太多死亡和暴力。

There's so much death and violence.

但正如你所说，对儿童的残忍是最难读的部分，尤其是哈林顿的故事，因为他最初被爱着、善待着，但后来他的生活却因希斯克利夫的实验和仇恨而骤然转变。

But but as you say, the cruelty to children is some of the hardest to read, especially the Harrington story because he's initially loved and and treated well, and then his life also turns on on the whim of Heathcliff's experimentation and hatred.

你看到他被塑造成尽可能粗俗残忍的样子。

And you see him made as coarse and cruel as as he can.

还有小林顿，他是伊莎贝拉和希斯克利夫的儿子，在伊莎贝拉去世后，他回来，希斯克利夫获得了监护权。他刚来时身体虚弱，但看起来是个相当善良的孩子。

And with young Linton too, who's Isabella and Heathcliff's son, he after Isabella dies and he comes back and Heathcliff takes custody, when he comes there, he's pretty frail but seems fairly sweet and, like, kind kid.

但随后你看到他逐渐蜕变成一个哭哭啼啼、操纵他人、懦弱无能的小人。

And then you see him kind of devolve into this sniveling, manipulative, spineless, weasel of a person.

这是个非常好的观点。

That is an excellent point.

但在我们陷入这些重叠关系的讨论之前，我能突然转个话题吗？

But can I do a hard pivot before we kind of get lost on the mark of the overlapping relationships?

我们已经聊了大约三十分钟。

So we've been chatting for about thirty minutes.

但我们还没谈到这本书最核心的问题之一：《呼啸山庄》是一部爱情故事吗？

And we haven't yet touched on one of the big questions surrounding the book, which is, is Wuthering Heights a love story?

这一直是个棘手的问题，尤其是因为这部电影的宣传语是‘有史以来最伟大的爱情故事’。

That's been a thorny question, especially because the movie had the tagline, the greatest love story of all time.

我想知道你如何看待这部小说。

And I wanna know how you think about the novel.

它首先算是一部爱情故事吗？

Is it a love story in the first place?

我想具体说明一下浪漫与爱情故事之间的区别。

And I wanna be specific and point out the distinction between romance and a love story.

作为文学体裁，浪漫小说的一个规则是，总有一个典型的幸福结局。

One of the rules for romance as a literary genre is that there is always the quintessential happy ending.

但‘爱情故事’这个说法是不同的。

That phrasing love story though is different.

它的范围更广。

It's broader.

它更包容。

It's more encompassing.

所以我想知道，你认为《呼啸山庄》是一部爱情故事吗？

So I wanna know, do you consider Wuthering Heights to be a love story?

我不会把这部作品归类为典型的爱情小说，至少不像我们今天对浪漫小说的理解——几乎所有人都有一个幸福的结局。

I wouldn't call this typically, at least the way we think of like a romance novel today, almost everyone ends has a happy ending.

我会称它为一部大写的浪漫作品。

I would call this a I would definitely call it big r romantic.

书中充满了荒原与自然的描写，这很合理，因为艾米莉·勃朗特成长时阅读的正是这类作品。

There's so much about The Moors and nature, like, that clearly runs through this book, which makes sense given what Emily Bronte would have been reading while she was growing up.

我会称它为一部浪漫的 melodrama（情感剧），这是一个充满激情的故事。

And I would call it a a romantic melodrama, and they're a very passionate story.

我不太愿意称它为爱情故事，部分原因是我认为凯瑟琳与希斯克利夫之间的关系并不是真正关于彼此，而是把对方当作象征某种更深层意义的客体。

I don't think I would call it a love story, in part because I think the relationship that Catherine and Heathcliff have isn't really about each other, but each other as kind of like objects that come to symbolize something more.

这无疑是一个痴迷的故事，但我并不确定这是否能称为爱。

And it's definitely a story of obsession, but I'm not sure I would call it love.

有一个地方，我们不能完全相信内莉的叙述。

There's that one part where and we can't trust Nelly.

但凯瑟琳对内莉说，她要嫁给另一个男人，我们之前都没怎么提过，埃德加·林顿——在被狗咬了之后，她在他家待了六个星期。

But Catherine is talking to Nelly and says, I'm going to marry this other guy who we haven't even brought up really, Edgar Linton, who after a dog bite or something, she ends up at his house for six week.

经典的浪漫情节。

Classic romance plot.

马的亲近，一个经典桥段。

Horse proximity, a classic trope.

她说她这么做的原因是希斯克利夫太穷了。

And she says the reason I'm gonna do it is because Heath Cliff is poor.

他一无所有。

He has nothing to his name.

而如果我保持富有，就能更好地照顾他。

And if I stay rich, then I can better take care of him.

然后希斯克利夫离开了，自己挣下了财富，但她并不知道这会发生。

Then Heath Cliff goes away and makes his own fortune, but she doesn't know that's going to happen.

我认为这至少是一种看似命中注定的爱的表达，至少在她自己看来，这是一种自我牺牲。

And I would say that's a I mean, at least a gesture at something like love that is meant to be, at least in her own eyes, self sacrificing.

因为她显然非常想和他在一起，但内心却认为这不可能。

Because she clearly really wants to be with him, but has it in her head that it's not possible.

我们的同事A。

Our colleague, A.

O。

O.

斯科特最近写了一篇文章，探讨《呼啸山庄》是否真的是有史以来最伟大的爱情故事。

Scott, recently wrote a story asking, is Wuthering Heights actually the greatest love story of all time?

他提出了一个令人信服的观点——我不一定完全同意，但他的论点让我深受触动：爱，从根本上说，是推动这部小说中执念的引擎。

And he had a compelling I don't know if I totally agree, but I was compelled by his argument that love, at its core, is the animator, the engine of the obsession that drives the novel.

萨迪，你露出一副怀疑的表情。

Sadie, you're making a skeptical

大概是困惑的表情吧。

A quizzical face, I guess.

我认为推动这个故事的，其实是爱的缺失。

I I think it's it's lack of love that is the driver of the story.

我认为这是一部关于爱的缺失的研究，以及这种缺失如何以扭曲的形式表现出来，进而引发代际创伤。

I think it's a study in in deprivation of love and how it it then comes out in this twisted form, and then the ensuing generational trauma.

从某种奇怪的角度来看，这部作品还带有乱伦色彩，无论是字面意义还是隐喻意义上，现代读者都很难将其视为浪漫故事。

In a weird way, it it there's also frankly, it's also incestuous, literally or otherwise, that that it's hard for the modern reader to feel it's romantic.

我觉得

I think

这当中有一种令人尴尬的元素。

There's a cringe element to it.

除了其中的暴力成分之外，还有你和表亲之间的关系。

In addition to like the violence of it all, there's also just like the your cousins.

你会觉得

You're like

他们全都彼此相关。

They're all related to it.

就连希斯克利夫和凯瑟琳表面上也是养兄妹。

Even Heathcliff and Catherine are ostensibly adopted siblings.

是的。

Yeah.

艾伦有时会提到自己是辛德利的养妹，但从不说是凯瑟琳的养妹。

And Ellen sometimes talks about being Hindley's foster sister, but never Catherine's.

这相当隐晦，而且这还没算上可能存在的恋尸倾向。

It it's quite obscure, and that's leaving aside the possible necrophilia.

谈到可能的恋尸倾向，我认为这表明我们该结束对这本书本身的讨论，转而进入其他环节了。

And with possible necrophilia, I think that is our sign that we should probably wrap up our conversation about the book itself, and then start to pivot to some of our other segments.

但在转向之前，我很好奇。

But before we do pivot, I'm curious.

你们还有其他想聊的内容吗？

Are there other things you wanna touch on?

我管这个叫快速轮答：开放笔记问答。

I'm gonna call this quick round open notebook quiz.

我觉得我们应该轮流看看自己的笔记，分享那些我们准备好了但还没来得及讨论的内容。

And I think we should just go around and look at our notes and share things that we have thought about, that we've prepared, but we haven't yet gotten to discuss.

我就挨个说吧。

I'm just gonna go around the horn.

我想说的是，我读这本书时一直萦绕在脑海中的歌，其实不是凯特·布什的《呼啸山庄》，而是泰勒·斯威夫特的《爸爸，我爱他》。

Maybe the thing I'll say is that the song that kept getting stuck in my head while I was reading this book was actually not Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush, but Daddy, I Love Him by Taylor Swift.

哦。

Oh.

我觉得这首歌完美概括了凯瑟琳的全部处境。

That, I feel like, really sums up Katherine's entire deal.

我想说，安息吧，凯西，安息吧，艾米莉·勃朗特，你们一定会喜欢泰勒·斯威夫特。

And I just wanna say, RIP Kathy, RIP Emily Bronte, you would have loved Taylor Swift.

我很喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

你呢，萨迪？

What about you, Sadie?

作为现代读者，我被当时男女之间、仆人与主人之间相对平等的关系所触动。

I think I was struck as a modern reader by the the relative equality for the times between men and women, between servants and their employers.

每个人都对彼此很糟糕。

Everyone is horrible to each other.

每个人都对彼此大喊大叫。

Everyone yells at each other.

每个人都对彼此施暴。

Everyone's violent to each other.

这很有趣，也很奇怪。

And that is is interesting and strange.

尼玛，该你了。

Nima, you're up.

我要为这本书中人们对人物的多种称呼方式辩护，因为这是现代读者最大的抱怨。

I'm gonna mount a defense for how many different ways people get referred to in this book because this is the modern reader's biggest complaint.

比如，恩肖先生，但他的名字到底是什么？

It's like, mister Earnshaw, but what's his first name?

blah blah blah。

Blah blah blah.

我要说，实际上，诗人艾米莉·勃朗特在书中巧妙地运用了这一点，尤其是在小说高潮部分——林顿·希斯克利夫临终之际。

And I'm gonna say that, actually, the poet, Emily Bronte, uses this to great effect, especially at the climax of the book, which is when Linton Heathcliff is dying.

凯瑟琳、希斯克利夫先生都在场，他把凯瑟琳带到即将死去的林顿身边。

Catherine, mister Heathcliff, is there, and he he brings Catherine to Linton who is dying.

而在他临终时，两座庄园的所有头衔和财产都将转移给希斯克利夫。

And on the on his deathbed, what's going to happen is that all of the titles and properties for both houses are going to transfer to Heathcliff.

突然间，她从被称作凯西或凯瑟琳，变成了被称作希斯克利夫太太。

And all of a sudden, she goes from being referred to as Kathy or Catherine to being referred to as missus Heathcliff.

当林顿最终去世后，内莉称希斯克利夫为她的公公。

And when Linton finally dies, Nellie's refers to Heathcliff as her father-in-law.

这些看似十九世纪独特习惯的称呼，实际上承载着极其强烈的情感重量。

And these names, which kind of seem like nineteenth century quirks, actually end up being extremely emotionally freighted.

我明白。

I hear you.

但即使现在听你这么说，我也忍不住想：等等。

But even just listening to you talk now, I was like, wait.

谁是

Who are

我们在说谁？太混乱了。

we That talking very confusing.

虽然我要说，对妮玛而言，我认为最终确实有一种强大的力量：尽管希斯克利夫最终孤独死去，但他一直渴望的未来在某种意义上确实实现了，因为最终幸存下来的是一位凯瑟琳·希斯克利夫。

Although I will say, to Neema's, I do think there is something powerful about in the end, even though Heathcliff is left alone and ultimately dead, that in the end, this future that he wanted for himself so much in a way does come to pass because in the end, there is a Catherine Heathcliff who is the one who survives.

是的。

Yeah.

我们还没提到，下一代其实有一条最终充满希望、救赎的线索。

And we haven't really mentioned that there is sort of a a final kind of hopeful, kind of redemptive arc for the next generation.

充满了黑暗，但在遥远的荒原上，有一丝微光。

A lot of darkness and a glimmer in the distant moors of light.

我最后想说的是，这本书其实非常有趣。

My last thing that I wanted to mention is that this book is really fun.

我觉得它给人的感觉非常压抑，就像再次感受到它那种高高在上的气质。

I feel like it's so oppressive in terms of, like, again, the lofty quality to it.

这是一部经典，所以当别人说你还没读过《呼啸山庄》时，感觉就像在做作业。

It's a classic, so it feels like homework sometimes when people are like, you haven't read Wuthering Heights.

而且书中情节非常暴力。

And then it's so violent.

但这本书本身却极其八卦，特别有趣。

But the book itself is so dishy, so fun.

我一直在读一些段落。

I kept reading passages.

我总想转头对我伴侣说：你猜刚才发生了什么？

I'm wanting to turn to my partner and be like, guess what just happened?

希斯克利夫刚说：什么？

Heathcliff just said, what?

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

这是一次伟大的爱的告白。

This great confession of love.

到底发生什么事了？

What is going on?

我读这本书的时候特别享受。

I had a great time reading it.

对我来说，我努力去适应，因为确实有点让人困惑。

And that for me, I tried to lean into because it does get confusing.

确实会让人感到不舒服。

It does get uncomfortable.

所以我会专心阅读，认真做笔记，诸如此类。

And so for me, I tried to pay attention and do my studious taking notes and all that stuff.

但我也希望确保自己读得开心，我会建议读者们享受这本书。

But then I also just wanted to make sure I had a great time, and I would recommend readers have fun with this book.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

这本书非常香艳，而且大声朗读起来也特别有趣。

It's so lurid, and it's also really, really fun to read aloud.

而且全都是动作和对话，我认为这正是这种效果的一部分。

It's also all action and dialogue, which I think is part of that effect.

我的意思是，珍，也许你读过很多这类书，能支持一下我的观点。

I mean, Jen, maybe you can back me up from reading a lot of these books.

是的。

But like Yeah.

几乎没有对衣橱和客厅的描写。

There's not a lot of description of armoires and drawing rooms.

确实没有对服装的描述，也没有你漫步田野时那种宁静的沉思。

There's no, yeah, no descriptions at, like, clothing, and there's no there's no quiet contemplation as you walk across the fields.

这全是动作、动作、动作，戏剧、戏剧、戏剧，毫不停歇。

This is action, action, action, drama, drama, drama, relentless.

还有这一切。

And All this.

没有多余的内容。

No filler.

是的

Yes.

全是高潮，没有冷场，虽然这种方式可能让人感到压抑和疲惫，但同时也极具推动力，让人根本放不下。

All bangers, no skips, and which can be overwhelming and exhausting in a way, but also is totally propulsive, and you just can't put it down.

我必须说，约瑟夫那段用浓重约克郡口音写成的对话，天哪。

I just have to say the sections with Joseph in broad written out Yorkshire accent Oh, god.

我就想说，我不得不跳过了一些部分，几乎看不懂。

That's all I have to I had to to skip some of Nearly indecipherable.

说得有道理。

Fair enough.

说得有道理。

Fair enough.

但这就是这本书本身。

But that's the book itself.

我们来聊聊这部电影吧。

And we wanna talk a little bit about the movie.

为此，尼玛，在本次录制时你还没有看过它。

And for that, Nima, at the time of this recording, you have not yet seen it.

所以我们先跟你告别，以免剧透。

And so we will say goodbye to you so we don't spoil it.

本段内容剧透较少，但如果你希望保持新鲜感，就学尼玛那样，暂停一下。

This segment will be spoiler light, but still if you wanna go in fresh, be like Nima, pause.

尼玛稍后会回来。

And Nima will be back later.

我觉得复仇者联盟里的美国队长会回归。

I feel like the Avengers, like, Captain America will return.

尼玛会回来的。

Nima will return.

书籍推荐。

Book recommendations.

但我们即将转向电影话题。

But we're gonna pivot to the movie.

尼玛，我们几分钟后再见。

Nima, we will see you in just a few minutes.

好的。

Alright.

所以尼玛已经出场了。

So Nima has stepped up.

这样一来，我们就可以深入探讨这部电影了。

And with that, we are free to dig into the movie.

先简单铺垫一下，导演埃梅拉尔德·费内尔，或者叫萨迪，你刚才在麦克风外提到，她的名字可能是法内尔，她最近将《呼啸山庄》改编成了一部由雅各布·艾洛蒂和玛格特·罗比主演的电影。

A little setup first, the director Emerald Fennel, or Sadie, you mentioned off mic that her name might actually be Fanell, has recently adapted Wuthering Heights into a major motion picture starring Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie.

或者说我这么想的话，‘改编’这个词可能太重了，因为这实际上是对勃朗特故事的一种全新诠释。

Or as I'm thinking about this, adaption may be too strong a word because it's really a different take on the Bronte story altogether.

不过我们已经看过这部电影了。

We've seen the movie though.

我很想知道，你整体上对这部电影有什么看法？

I'm curious, what did you think of the film in general as a film?

另外，我很想知道，作为读者，你是如何看待这部电影的？

And also, I'm curious, how do you regard this movie as a reader?

你认为它和原著相比如何？

How do you consider it alongside the book?

我们喜欢比较和对照。

We love to compare and contrast.

所以我很好奇你的看法。

And so I'm just curious your thoughts.

《呼啸山庄》这部电影。

Wuthering Heights film.

说吧。

Go.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这部电影和原著是完全不同的东西。

I the movie is a very different animal to the book.

我觉得可以说，这部电影

I think it's safe to say it's

从一开始，角色就

From the outset, like, characters are

嗯，这个

Well, this

缺失了。

is missing.

这正是我的观点。

This is kind of my thing.

我实际上有很多角色。

I actually A lot of characters.

我实际上觉得，虽然角色数量更少，但同时我也认为存在两个主要的误判。

I actually feel like there's both there are fewer characters, but at the same time, I felt like there were two major category errors.

因为对我来说，这本书的核心是这样一个封闭、隔绝的世界。

Because the book for me is so much about this kind of claustrophobic hermetic world.

哦，电影一开场，说句不会剧透的话，就是一个盛大的人群场景。

It oh, and the movie, it will not be too much of a spoiler to say, opens with a huge crowd scene.

所以对我来说，这一切都特别引人注目。

So all was really notable to me too.

太突兀了。

So jarring.

是的。

Yeah.

一开始你就会想，好吧。

Already, you're like, okay.

我们进入了一个不同的宇宙，因为这正是这本书的主旨所在。

We're in a different universe because because that that's kind of the point of the book.

我认为，这本书的力量和威胁感正源于此。

I think it it's where the book derives its power and its menace.

我还认为，关于爱情故事的本质，其实存在一种分类上的错误。

And I would also say that there's kind of a, I feel, a category error about the nature of the love story.

因为某种程度上，我觉得希斯、克里夫和凯西之间的爱情，或者你管它叫什么，是这本书里最缺乏说服力的关系之一。

Because in some ways, I find Heath, Cliff, and Kathy's love, or whatever you wanna call it, one of the less convincing relationships in the book.

我觉得在某些方面，这种感情是被讲述出来的，而不是展现出来的。

I feel like it's told more than shown in certain ways.

嗯，也不完全是。

Well, yes and no.

但这种感情又如此夸张。

But but it it's so outsized.

我觉得让这本书真正出色的是那些错综复杂的人际关系和代际创伤。

And I feel like what makes the book really great is the web of relationships and intergenerational trauma.

所以，压缩一些角色、删减一些角色，你

So then condensing some of the characters, cutting some of the characters, you

并不是本身的问题。

And not in itself.

当然，当你把这样一部篇幅庞大、有些松散的小说改编成两小时的电影时，这是必要的。

Of course, that's necessary when you're when you're doing a two hour movie of such a big book, which which is baggy at points.

但对我来说，这部电影和原著没什么关系。

But it doesn't have much to do with the book for me.

我认为你可以从其他角度、以它自身的方式去享受它，但它完全是另一个故事。

And I think you can enjoy it on other terms, on its own terms, but it's really a different story completely.

詹，你呢？

What about you, Jen?

你感觉怎么样？

How did you feel?

我们一起看了这部电影。

We saw this movie together.

是的，我们一起看的。

We did.

你刚才说凯茜和希斯克利夫的事挺有意思，萨迪，因为现在我仔细想想，我其实没太注意到这一点。

It's actually it's interesting what you said about Kathy and Heathcliff, Sadie, because now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know that I'd really clocked this.

但在书里，你经常听到他们各自谈论对彼此的痴迷或激情，却很少看到他们真正在一起的场景。

But I feel like in the book, you hear each of them speak about their obsession or passion for each other a lot, but you don't actually see them together very often.

而这部电影删掉了大约50%的角色，以及80%的原著情节。

And the movie, which cuts, I would say, about 50% of the characters and, like, 80% of the plot from the book.

剩下的20%虽然与原著情节有些许关联，但完全聚焦在这两个人身上。

And the 20% that remains bears what I would describe as a glancing resemblance to the plot of the book is so wrapped up in these two people.

可以说，电影的大部分时间里，你都看到这两位演员出现在屏幕上。

And you spend most of the movie, I would say, with these two actors on screen.

因此，他们的化学反应和关系——就像《翡翠隧道》这部电影一样，把整个故事都押在了这一点上，但我完全不买账。

And so their chemistry and their relationship, like the movie Emerald Tunnel really, like, puts the whole movie on that, and I just didn't buy it.

这部电影里有很多场景设计。

I didn't there's a lot of set pieces in this movie.

我的意思是，无论是从物理层面，还是隐喻层面，都是如此。

I mean, that in both, like, the physical sense, but also, like, the metaphorical.

我觉得，如果这部电影在Tumblr的鼎盛时期上映，肯定会被疯狂地截取成GIF和截图，遍布整个网站。

There's a lot of I feel like if this movie had come out in the peak Tumblr era, it would have been, like, GIF'd and screen shotted all over that site.

影片中有很多大胆的美学选择，但我觉得它们都相当肤浅。

There's it's there's a lot of bold aesthetic choices happening, but I just found them all pretty shallow.

最终，我觉得这根本上是一种误解，或者说是，作为书籍的《呼啸山庄》并不是她真正想讲述的故事。

And ultimately, like, it felt like a fundamental misunderstanding or maybe just, like, the version of Wuthering Heights that exists as the book is not the story that she wanted to make.

说实话，我觉得她想做的其实是《罗密欧与朱丽叶》，只是想把背景设在19世纪，而且还要有超大的雾效预算。

Really, I felt like what she wanted to do was Romeo and Juliet, but she wanted to set it in eighteen hundreds with a and really with a big fog budget.

我同意。

I I agree.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

不过我觉得，我对这部电影的看法比你们俩更宽容一些。

I feel, though, I had a more generous take than either of you.

我不认为这部电影是所谓的‘好’电影。

I don't think that the movie is quote unquote good.

我觉得这部电影逻辑混乱，两位主角之间明显缺乏化学反应。

I feel like the movie is incoherent and the two main characters had a notable lack of chemistry.

布景和服装非常鲜明，但有时显得不合时宜，让我出戏。

The sets and the costumes were so vivid and sometimes felt inappropriate in a way that took me out of it.

然而，我喜欢这种大胆的尝试，它试图做些不同、充满活力且富有风格的东西。

However, I liked that this was a huge swing, and it tried to do something different and vibrant and stylish.

我不确定这种尝试是否每次都成功打动了我，但我看得很开心。

And I don't know if that swing always landed for me, but I had a great time watching it.

不过，我觉得在某些时刻，这部电影太长了。

Though I did think at certain points, this movie is too long.

是的。

Yeah.

我看得有点无聊，全程都这样。

I got I got bored in them and all.

对我来说，这更像是一部《呼啸山庄》的改编，但它并没有直接把故事搬上银幕。

For me, it was less a Wuthering Heights adaptation in that it took the story and tried to move it to a film.

对我来说，我认为这更像是一张《呼啸山庄》的情绪板——艾梅丽·芬内尔关注的是小说的能量、氛围和感觉，而非情节本身，只是试图捕捉那种美学气质。

And for me, I considered this to be more of a Wuthering Heights mood board in the sense that it feels like Emerald Fennel focused on the energy and the mood and the vibe of the book more than the plot of the book, and just tried to capture that aesthetic sensibility.

完全同意。

Totally.

这全都是氛围。

It was it was all vibes.

我欣赏这部电影的地方在于，埃梅拉德成功地强化了这本书的一些情感、基调和质感。

And what I appreciated about the movie is how Emerald was able to enhance some of the feelings and the tones and textures of the book.

那种激情的基调，珍，你之前提到过，你实际上并没有看到凯西和希斯克利夫在一起很多次。

The tone of passion, Jen, again, you mentioned that, like, you don't actually see Kathy and Heathcliff together a ton.

你只是听到他们谈论他们的爱情。

You just hear them talking about their love.

所以能稍微多看到一些这种情感的升华，或者看到其中的暴力元素。

So getting to see that a little bit heightened or seeing the violence of it.

她以一种风格化、美学化的方式，增强了这本书的基调或突出了它们。

There's something about how she was able to kind of stylistically, aesthetically enhance the tones of the book or emphasize them.

我真的很喜欢这种美学。

I really liked aesthetic.

这就是我对这部电影的评价。

That's the word that I would say about the movie.

这是一部好电影吗？

Was it a good movie?

我不知道。

I don't know.

它在它试图做到的事情上成功了吗？

Was it successful at at what it tried to do?

我觉得还算吧。

I think kind of.

我会做它试图做的事情吗？

Would I have done what it tried to do?

大概不会。

Probably not.

我认为我对它另一个根本性的问题是，凯瑟琳和希斯克利夫以及他们的决定，只有在书中背景下才有意义——那就是他们是两个前额叶尚未完全发育的青少年，认为自己感受到的每一种情绪都是前所未有的、无人能理解的，那种全然投入且冲动的激情是非常青少年化的。

I think my other sort of fundamental issue with it is that I think Katherine and Heathcliff and the decisions that they're making makes only makes sense in the context of the book if these are two teenagers whose frontal lobes have not fully developed yet and who think every feeling I'm feeling is the biggest feeling that anyone has ever felt and no one will ever understand, and that, like, all consuming and impulsive passion is very adolescent.

这并不是对玛格特·罗比或雅各布·阿尔迪的才华的评价，但他们都是成年人， presumably 拥有完全发育的前额叶。

And this is no comment on the talents of Margot Robbie or Jacob Alordi, but they are both adults with presumably fully developed frontal lobes.

但看到他们作为成年人跑来跑去、表演并做出这些决定，我根本无法信服。

And to see them running around and acting and making these decisions as adults, I just didn't buy it.

我还要说一点，我之前也跟你说过，MJ，我们去参加了一场媒体场放映，现场都是举止得体、相当安静的记者，他们在那里很专业地观影。

I will also say though, and I've said this to you before, MJ, we went to a a press screening, which was full of well behaved, fairly sedate journalists who were there being professional.

我觉得如果和几个朋友一起，喝点酒来看这部电影，可能会更开心，那样就可以对一些情节做出反应，完全沉浸在电影这趟疯狂的过山车之旅中，因为我确实喜欢这种体验。

And I do think I perhaps would have had a better time seeing this movie with a few friends, with a few drinks, where you could, like, react to some of the and just be, like, taken along on the bonkers roller coaster ride of the film, which because I have liked that.

我之前很享受被艾梅拉·芬内尔的前几部电影带着走的感觉，但这次却没能让我产生共鸣。

I've enjoyed being, like, taken on a ride like that with Emerald Fennell's previous movies, and it just it wasn't clicking for me with

这部

this

电影。

one.

我们来一次房间风格的重看吧。

Let's do a room style rewatch.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

我太想那样做了。

I would love that.

我太想那样做了。

I would love that.

这可能会成为一部邪典经典。

It it could be a camp classic.

对吧？

Right?

这部电影本来有那么多潜力可以做成主题鸡尾酒和小吃。

Well, it had so many so much potential for themed cocktails and food.

不过，我坚决不吃鱼和果冻。

Although, I I refuse to eat a fish and jelly.

那不是我的风格。

That's that's not my vibe.

关于这部电影，我还想说最后一件事。

There's one last thing I wanna say about the movie.

我觉得这就是艺术存在的意义。

I feel like this is what art is for.

我发现自己对网上那些人感到很恼火，他们说：她为什么要重拍这部作品呢？

I found myself getting so miffed by the people online being like, why did she remake this in the first place?

如果她有自己的想法，那为什么一开始还要去改编呢？

If she had her own vision, why try to adapt it in the first place?

我觉得，那是因为这很有趣。

And I'm like, because it's interesting.

这确实也很有趣。

It's also It's interesting.

正是因为你说的这一点。

Because of exactly what you said.

因为她有自己的愿景，她就是想这么做，而这正是我们创作艺术的原因。

Because she had her own vision and she wanted to like, that is why we make art.

是的。

Yes.

而且说起来也很有趣，比如这个成功了，那个没成功，这个我不喜欢是因为这个原因。

And it's fun to say, like, this worked and this didn't work and this I didn't love it for this reason.

这种讨论，我一直在享受这些评论。

Like, that conversation, I've been loving the reviews.

虽然评论都很负面，但却是带着负面、有趣、令人兴奋的方式。

And they've been so negative, but negative and interesting, fun, exciting ways.

这是一些很好的批评。

And it's it's good criticism.

我觉得这是一部出色的艺术作品，因为它激发了优秀的评论。

And I feel like it's good it's notable art that has inspired good criticism.

我认为这就是艺术的意义所在。

And I think that's what art's for.

而且我想，至少这部电影让更多的读者去读原著，重新关注勃朗特姐妹，也为批评提供了丰富的素材——像我们这些在书评版工作、以批评为职业的人，都完全支持这一点。

And I guess, you know, if nothing else, like, this movie has is making more people go read the book and revisit the Brontes and is good grist for criticism, which is people who work at the book review, who our job is criticism, like, all for that.

我要感谢艾梅拉德带来的这一切。

I will thank Emerald for that.

谢谢。

Cheers for that.

它让我们进了这个房间，我真的很高兴。

It got us into this room, and I am really glad for that.

好的。

Alright.

这就是这部电影。

So that's the movie.

我们把尼玛请回来，聊聊一些《呼啸山庄》之后的书籍推荐吧。

Let's bring Nima back in and talk about some post Wuthering Heights book recommendations.

等一下。

One sec.

尼玛，欢迎回来。

Nima, welcome back.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你保护了我纯洁的耳朵。

Thank you for preserving my innocent ears.

随时效劳。

Anytime.

随时效劳。

Anytime.

所以我想知道，读者读完《呼啸山庄》后，你推荐他们接下来读什么？

So I wanna know, after readers have finished Wuthering Heights, what would you recommend they pick up next?

这可以出于任何原因。

This could be for whatever reason.

可能是因为这是另一部你喜爱的优秀哥特小说。

It could be because it's another great Gothic novel you love.

也可能是因为这是另一个关于爱情与痴迷的故事。

Maybe it's another tale of love and obsession.

又或者，这是另一部你希望更多人关注的勃朗特小说。

Maybe it's another Bronte novel that you just want to give more shine.

我听你的。

I defer to you.

给我一些书单推荐吧。

Just give me some book recommendations.

我先从你开始，珍。

I'm gonna start with you, Jen.

我有两本，都是当代作品，但我觉得它们和这本书有很多相似之处。

I have two, both of which are contemporary, but I think share a lot of sort of DNA with this book.

这本书让我首先想到的是《Safekeep》，作者是埃亚尔·范德武登。

The first book this made me think of was The Safekeep by Eyal Vanderwuden.

而且是以前读书会选过的书。

And a past book club pick.

是的。

Yes.

是我近几年最喜欢的书之一。

And one of my one of my favorites from the last few years.

设定上，这与前一本书截然不同。

Setting wise, this could not be more different.

故事发生在二战后的荷兰，同样发生在一座位于乡村、孤立且拥有黑暗神秘历史的房子里。

It's set in The Netherlands post World War two, but is set similarly in a house that is kind of isolated in the countryside that has a dark and mysterious history.

这是一个关于社会边缘人的故事。

It is a story about a societal outcast.

书中的叙述者是一位极其令人不悦的女性，在许多方面都如此，她卷入了一段与她哥哥女友之间激烈却压抑的情感纠葛中，而她哥哥莫名其妙地让这位女友住进这栋房子。

The narrator of the book is this really deeply unpleasant, in a lot of ways, woman who gets entangled in this very passionate but suppressed story with her brother's girlfriend who he kind of illogically sends to stay at the house with her.

这还是一个关于执念和精心策划的复仇的故事。

It's also a story about obsession and long plotted revenge.

我不想剧透太多，因为这本书里有一些非常精彩的转折，我不想提前泄露。

I don't wanna spoil too many of the there's some really great great twists in the book that I don't wanna spoil.

但如果你喜欢《呼啸山庄》，我想你也会喜欢这本书。

But if you like Wuthering Heights, I think you would also like that.

我想提到的另一本书是西尔维娅·莫雷诺·加西亚的《墨西哥哥特》。

The other one I wanted to mention is Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno Garcia.

正如书名所暗示的，这是一部发生在墨西哥的哥特式小说，讲述了一个扭曲的家庭和一座阴暗的房子，这座房子极为封闭，不仅在物理上，也在形而上层面渗透着其居民，并引发了一些极其黑暗的事件。

This is, as the title implies, a Gothic novel set in Mexico about and again, has twisted families and a dark house that seems to that is very hermetic and infiltrates perhaps physically as well as metaphysically its inhabitants and leads to some dark, dark things.

另外，我想特别提一下，我最喜欢的《呼啸山庄》改编作品是漫画家凯特·比顿的作品。她曾创作过网络漫画《听，流浪者》，并推出了一系列《呼啸山庄》主题的漫画，非常可爱、精彩。

And then the other thing I just wanna shout out is that actually my favorite Wuthering Heights adaptation is the cartoonist Kate Beaton, who had a webcomic called Hark a Vagrant, did a series of Wuthering Heights cartoons that are so delightful, so wonderful.

这些漫画在网络上都能找到。

They are all on the internet.

Hark a Vagrant，你去网上就能找到它们。

Harker Vagrant, can go find them there.

我很喜欢这些漫画，但我还没读过《呼啸山庄》。

I love those comics, but I had not read Wuthering Heights.

我觉得我没完全看懂里面的笑点。

I don't think I got the jokes there.

我得回去重新看看。

I need to go revisit those.

是的。

Yeah.

我在读这本书之前就很喜欢这些漫画，后来读完小说后重新看了一遍，反而更加喜欢了。

I I loved them before I had read the book, and then I went back and revisited them having read the novel and loved them even more.

它们真的非常可爱。

They're truly delightful.

我也喜欢这些。

Love those.

大家一定要去看看这些漫画。

Go check those out, everyone.

你呢，萨迪？

What about you, Sadie?

好的。

Okay.

如果我们讨论几部作品，显然你可以选另一部勃朗特的作品，但我的最爱却是夏洛特·勃朗特的《维莱特》，它没那么夸张，却异常古怪。

If we're doing a couple, obviously, you can do another Bronte, but my favorite oddly is Villette by Charlotte Bronte, which is less lurid but deeply, deeply weird.

所以我推荐你读一读。

So I'd recommend that

你要是让我选，我就选那种特别怪的。

if You have me at deeply weird.

在这个播客里，我们最爱怪异的书了。

We love a weird book on this podcast.

双重的特别怪异。

A double deeply weird.

接下来我肯定知道你要说什么，因为桌上的每个人都清楚，《丽贝卡》在某些方面可能是我最喜爱的小说。

And then you must I I'm sure you know what I'm going to say because everyone on the desk knows that Rebecca is probably my favorite novel in some ways.

它无疑是我重读最多的那本。

It's certainly the one I reread the most.

当然，作者是达芙妮·杜穆里埃。

And, of course by Daphne du Maurier.

当然，它是一部经典的哥特小说，尽管背景设定在二十世纪上半叶。

And, of course, it is a classic Gothic, albeit set in the first half of the twentieth century.

但和这本书一样，人们常把它称为浪漫或浪漫悬疑小说，实际上它蕴含着一种黑暗与病态，这正是它的精彩之处。

But like this one, I think it's a book that people talk about as as romantic or romantic suspense when in fact, there is a darkness and a sickness to it, which is brilliant.

有一天，我希望我们能在读书会里讨论它，因为这本书如此丰富、如此出色、如此有趣，而且在我看来，它是一部完美的小说。

One day, I hope we will talk about it for book club because it it is so rich, and so good, and so fun, and I think, in its way, a perfect novel.

我太喜欢了。

I love this.

我也很喜欢这本书。

I also love that book.

是的。

Yeah.

那你怎么说，尼玛？

What about you, Nima?

有什么书推荐吗？

Book recommendations.

我的推荐算是一种解腻之作，但我觉得它和《呼啸山庄》有诸多相似之处，甚至可以说是《呼啸山庄》的负片。

Mine's kind of a palate cleanser, but with, I think, a lot of the same things driving it, and it might even be a photo negative of Wuthering Heights.

它是埃利夫·巴图曼的《白痴》。

It's Elif Batuman's The Idiot.

这是一个关于一个情感极度滞涩之人的痛苦爱情故事，叙述的脉络与故事的发展轨迹相呼应。

This is a kind of tormented love story about someone who is very, very emotionally stunted, and the arc of the narration follows the arc of the story.

你基本上能从巴图曼笔下这位土耳其裔美国哈佛新生的片段中，看到她与一位名叫伊万的高大匈牙利数学系学生之间强烈的、主要通过电子邮件展开的恋情，因为故事设定在二十世纪九十年代。

You essentially get these bits and scraps from Batuman's character, who's a Turkish American Harvard freshman, who has an intense largely epistolary, I.

E.

E.

通过电子邮件，因为故事设定在二十世纪九十年代，她与一位名叫伊万的高大匈牙利数学系学生展开了一段强烈的恋情。

Via email because it's set in the nineteen nineties romance with a Hungarian math student who is very tall named Ivan.

和《呼啸山庄》一样，这在某种程度上也是一个成长故事。

And like Wuthering Heights, it's in a way, also a coming of age story.

我认为，她没有遭遇反对的家庭成员或敌对的社会，而是拥有一颗封闭、拒斥自我的严苛心灵。

And I think that instead of having disapproving family members or a disapproving society, she has a kind of forbidding mind that's closed off from itself.

当这颗心逐渐裂开时，她和叙述本身都变得愈发混乱。

And the more it kind of cracks open, the more chaotic she and the narration become.

这就是为什么我认为它与《呼啸山庄》是绝佳的搭配。

And that's why I think it is a good pairing for Wuthering Heights.

这个搭配出人意料，但我完全欣赏。

That is an unexpected pairing that I totally appreciate.

我非常喜欢这本书，但之前从未这样看待它。

I love that book, but I had not framed it in that way.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

谢谢。

Thank you.

如果这是篇英语论文，我会给你一个A。

If this were an English paper, I'd give you an a.

终于有两个A了。

Finally, two a's.

每个人都得一颗金星。

Gold stars for everyone.

你呢，MJ？

What about you, MJ?

我有两个推荐。

I have two recommendations.

第一个是《了不起的盖茨比》。

The first is The Great Gatsby.

哦。

Oh.

也许是因为另一个《纽约时报》的播客《Cannonball》与韦斯利·莫里斯刚刚做了一期关于这本书的节目。

Maybe it's because another New York Times podcast, Cannonball with Wesley Morris, just an episode on this.

但我一直在思考《盖茨比》，这本书同样探讨了爱、痴迷与自我重塑。

But I've been thinking about Gatsby, and that's another book about love and obsession and reinvention.

它以悲剧收场，并通过一个旁观者视角展开叙述，而这位叙述者实际上在故事中拥有很大的能动性。

And it ends in tragedy, and it's told sideways through an adjacent narrator who actually has a lot of agency in the story.

还有一些理论认为，盖茨比其实是一个伪装成白人的黑人。

There are also theories that Gatsby was a black man who was passing as white.

所以这与前面提到的那本书形成了某种对比，但无法完全确定其中的联系。

So there's that comparison with no way get any of

种族

the race

问题在

questions in

这是对的。

this True.

他是棕色皮肤的。

He's brown.

他肯定是其他种族。

He he's other for sure.

我听说盖茨比原本可能是来自下东区的犹太人。

I've heard Gatsby could have been he was originally Jewish too on the Lower East Side.

很有趣。

Interesting.

哇。

Wow.

但那确实是。

But that's yeah.

把这个留到另一个播客再说吧。

Save that for another podcast.

关于盖茨比有很多理论，但其中一个也与希斯克利夫相似。

There are a lot of theories about Gatsby, but the the one is also similar to Heathcliff.

他与他所加入的这个群体格格不入，他重塑了自己，试图追求那似乎遥不可及的爱情。

He is other from this cohort that he has joined, and that he has reinvented himself to try to court this love that seems distant.

这是一本以不同方式探讨执念的书，同时也充满动荡。

And it's it's a book that's about obsession in a different way, and it's also volatile.

所以，《了不起的盖茨比》。

So The Great Gatsby.

另一个是，当我想到《呼啸山庄》中的复仇元素时。

And the other is if I was thinking about the vengeance revenge aspect of Wuthering Heights.

我建议你去读一读《基督山伯爵》。

And I recommend you go read The Count of Monte Cristo.