来聊聊21世纪最精彩的50部惊悚片

这是这份榜单上的头号书。

That's the number one book on this list.

遥遥领先的第一名。

Number one by a darn mile.

看起来每个人都投了它一票。

Seemingly, everyone voted for it.

我想知道为什么。

I want to know why.

我觉得它排第一是因为，虽然我们现在都知道什么是不可靠叙述者，也经常听到这个词，但这本书是开山之作。

I think it's on top because although we all know what an unreliable narrator is, and we hear all about it now, like, this is the urtext.

这是最经典的那部。

This is the original great one.

它不止有一个不可靠叙述者。

It's not just one unreliable narrator.

有两个，一对夫妻。

It's two, a husband and a wife.

如果算上妻子的日记，其实有三个。

And it's three if you really count the wife's diaries.

她文笔很美，你翻着书页，但脑子在转，因为你真的不知道该信什么。

And she's a beautiful writer, and you're just turning the pages, but your mind is spinning because you really don't know what to believe.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这本书简直太棒了。

I think this book was absolutely marvelous.

但在我看来，有些谜团揭晓得太早了。

But to my mind, some of the mystery was solved too early.

嗯。

Mhmm.

前半部分特别精彩，因为我们真的像迷失在错误信息的海洋里。

The whole first half is just extraordinary because we really are, like, lost in this sea of misinformation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我们其实很早就知道了我们原本不知道的很多事情，我觉得有点太早了。

And then we actually learn a lot about what we did not know, I think, too early.

这并不意味着它不是一本非常精彩的书，但说实话，我觉得后半部分没有前半部分那么充满悬念。

It doesn't mean it's not an absolutely spectacular book, but I felt less filled with suspense in that second half than the first half, actually.

我刚才想说，当蒂娜谈到不可靠叙述时，那本书开头有一个很棒的时刻，其中一个叙述者尼克，那个丈夫，他的妻子失踪了，消失的爱人，他报了警，警察来和他进行第一次谈话。

I was gonna say when Tina talks about unreliability, there's such a great moment in the beginning of that book where one of the narrators, Nick, the husband, whose wife has just gone missing, gone girl, has reported it to the police, and they've come to have their first conversation with him.

你在那里，你会觉得，这是一个直白的故事。

And you're there, and you're like, this is a straight up story.

他描述了所发生之事的奇怪之处，非常坦诚地对警察说话，但同时也是在向我们叙述。

He's describing the strangeness of what happened and speaking very candidly to the police, but narrating it to us.

在那一章的结尾，他说，那是我对警察撒的第五个谎。

And at the end of that chapter, he says, it was the fifth lie I told to the police.

然后还有类似这样的话，而这仅仅是开始。

And then something like and it was just the beginning.

然后你会觉得，天哪。

And you're like, holy shit.

然后你就会想，什么？

And you're like, what?

哪些是谎话？

Which ones were the lies?

然后你就开始意识到，我读的根本不是真实的故事。

Like and that's that's when you start realizing I'm not reading real truth here at all.

太酷了。

It's so cool.

她在这方面做得太棒了。

She does such a great job with this.

她还有另一本书，叫《利器》，也很好地展现了家庭关系。

She also does a great job with family dynamics in another book that she has on her list, which is called Sharp Objects.

你知道，吉莉安·弗琳有两本书在榜单上，而且有好几位作者都有多本书上榜，这也许并不奇怪，因为惊悚小说作家确实写得多，不管是写系列还是写独立的故事。

And, you know, Gillian Flynn has two books on the list, and there are several authors who have multiple books on this list, which maybe is not that surprising because thriller writers do write a lot, whether they're writing a series or they're writing a collection of one offs.

除了吉莉安·弗琳，还有塔娜·法兰奇、丹尼斯·勒翰、S.

But in addition to Gillian Flynn, Tana French, Dennis Lehane, S.

A.

A.

科斯比，我很想聊聊这些人。

Cosby, I'd love to talk about some of these people.

第一个要聊的人，我知道你们俩都特别迷她。

And the first person I'm gonna start with, I know you are both obsessed with.

很多人都迷她。

Many people are obsessed with this person.

莎拉，我记得几年前你在书评播客上采访过她。

Sarah, I believe you actually interviewed this person on the Book Review podcast several years ago.

她就是塔娜·法兰奇。

That is Tana French.

没错，就是塔娜·法兰奇。

It is Tana French.

我第一次见塔娜·法兰奇是很多年前，当时我是伦敦记者，采访她聊她早期的一本书。

And I first met Tana French years ago when I was a London correspondent because I interviewed her about one of her earlier books.

我记得好像是《The Likeness》。

I think it was The Likeness.

我记不清了。

I can't remember.

所以我觉得，当然，我不是为美国读者发现塔娜·弗伦奇的，但看到这位爱尔兰作家在这份榜单上如此突出，我感到非常欣慰，因为榜单上大部分都是美国作家。

And so I feel I mean, obviously, I didn't discover Tana French for American audiences, but I was so gratified to see that this Irish writer featured so prominently on this list because most of the list are American writers.

对。

Mhmm.

她的书确实取得了突破，而且，你知道，我就像跟你大声推荐《 presumed innocent》一样，也在极力推荐这些书。

And her books have really broken through, and, you know, I sort of proselytize for these books as much as I shout at you about presumed innocent.

我明白了。

I got it.

我明白了。

I got it.

我听到了。

I hear you.

所以，我当时真的很高兴。

And, and so I was really happy.

我的意思是，人们喜欢这些书是因为它们既是高水平的文学作品，又是悬疑小说。

I mean, what people love about these books is that they're really high, high literature as well as mysteries.

其中一些是警察办案小说。

Some of them are police procedurals.

有些不是。

Some of them are not.

最后三本不是，但它们也非常精彩。

The last three are not, but they're pretty fantastic as well.

她有一种全知视角，能洞察每个角色的内心，让你理解他们的动机，即使是反派。

And she has a sort of panoptical way of looking inside every character, making you understand their motivations even if they're the villain.

而且逐句来看，她的文笔非常优美，我非常关心这些角色。

And sentence by sentence, she's just such a beautiful writer, and I care so much about these characters.

而且，在大多数书中，我可能至少有一次会稍微哭一下，她真的很擅长写心理变态杀手。

And I there's probably at least one time in most of the books where I cry just a little bit, and she's really good at, like, psycho killers.

我的意思是，不是那种大规模杀人狂，而是那种心理很奇怪的杀手。

I mean, I don't mean, like, psycho massive killers, but I mean weird killers with really weird psychology.

对。

Mhmm.

我们想到的是同一个小老太太，就像黑蜘蛛一样。

We're thinking of the same little old lady who's like black spider.

对吧？

Right?

她简直不可思议。

She's unbelievable.

这个小老太太出现在弗伦奇刚完成的最后三部曲的第三部里，而且显然她不再写了。

The little old lady comes in the third of this last series that French has just finished, and apparently, she's not writing anymore.

我想看一本关于那个老太太的书。

I wanna see a book about that lady.

我觉得她应该回来，应该面对正义，但我不确定她会不会。

Like, I feel like she needs to come back and she needs to face justice, and I'm not sure she ever is going to.

弗伦奇上榜的三本书分别是《森林之中》，排名第三；《相似》，排名第三十四；以及《破碎港湾》，排名第二十。

So the three books of French's that are on this list are In the Woods, which came in at number three, The Likeness, which came in at number 34, and Broken Harbor, which came in at number 20.

她写了很多书，属于一个叫“都柏林谋杀小队”的系列。

She has written many books in a series known as the Dublin Murder Squad series.

今年她刚出版了新书，这是三部曲的第三部，讲的是一个前芝加哥警察，现在住在爱尔兰乡下。

She's just published this year the third in a trilogy of books set around a former Chicago policeman who now lives in rural Ireland.

蒂娜，我们共事这么久，你一直大力推荐弗伦奇的书。

Tina, you've been beating a ton of French drums for as long as we have worked together.

确实如此。

I really have.

对我来说，有一本特别突出，远超其他。

There's just one that stands so far above the rest for me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是哪一本呢？

Which one is that?

就是《破碎港湾》。

And that's Broken Harbor.

《破碎港湾》的故事主要发生在一个已经破产的豪华住宅区里。

Broken Harbor takes place mostly in a ruined upscale housing development that's gone bust.

大部分房子都没建完。

They haven't finished most of the houses.

只有几栋有人住。

A few of them are occupied.

其中一栋房子里发生了一起可怕的谋杀案。

At one of the houses, there's been a terrible murder.

但这本书最棒的地方在于，它讲述了一个人如何一点点走向疯狂。

But what makes this book so great is it's about one man's descent into madness, and bit by tiny bit.

你还记得吗，莎拉？

Do you remember, Sarah?

比如，一开始他以为自己听到了老鼠的声音。

Like, starts out by thinking he hears a mouse.

然后它就变成了另一种动物。

And then it's a and then it's a different kind of animal.

对。

Right.

就像是，房子墙里到底是什么动物？

It's like, what kind of animal is it in the walls of the house?

他在墙上打洞，你知道吗？

He's punching holes in the walls of the you know?

然后事情就升级了，但升级得非常慢。

And it it just it escalates, but it escalates so slowly.

就像，你几乎没注意到，直到突然你反应过来，等等。

Like, you're almost not paying attention until all of a sudden you're like, wait.

他要去买个捕熊夹之类的。

He's gonna buy a bear trap or whatever it is.

不是吧。

No.

但还不止这些。

But it's but it's even more than that.

这本书是在2008年金融危机之后写的，那场危机对爱尔兰打击很大。

So it was written, in the aftermath of the financial crisis of two thousand and eight, which really hit Ireland hard.

对。

Mhmm.

故事发生的那个住宅区，就是当时用那些到处乱扔的假钱启动的众多项目之一，后来项目中途就破产了。

And so the housing development it set in is is one of many such projects that were started with all this fake money that they were throwing around that then that just went bust in the middle.

所以这也是一部反映国家现状的小说。

So it was a state of the nation novel as well.

对。

Mhmm.

我记得那个家伙后来丢了工作。

And I think what happened to that guy who, in my memory, lost his job.

他确实丢了工作。

He lost his job.

所以他有点像当时所有事情的隐喻或代表。

And so he was a bit of a metaphor or stand in for everything that was going on.

其实，我记得那是我第一次见到塔娜·弗伦奇，因为我觉得那部小说太出色了，故事非常精彩，而且对社会有深刻的反映。

Actually, I remember that's when I met Tana French for the first time because I thought that novel was so extraordinary because it was just such a great, great story, and yet it said so much about the society.

它实际上远远超出了各部分的总和。

It was way more than the sum of its parts, actually.

对。

Right.

这就是我说的那种广角镜头式的故事。

That's what I meant when I said, like, a wide angle lens kind of story.

她能做到这一点。

She does that.

丹尼斯·勒翰也能做到。

Dennis Lehane does that.

但这也非常罕见，尤其是在惊悚小说甚至警探小说领域。

But also and this is really unusual in the thriller, even in the police procedural world.

这些是角色驱动的。

These are character driven.

不是情节驱动的。

They are not plot driven.

对。

Mhmm.

所以之前说的那些关于佩奇·特纳靠情节推动的话，全都忘掉吧，因为这些书不是那样的。

So throw everything out the window that we said about, like, Paige Turner's propelled by plot because that's not what these books are.

没错。

Right.

但除了角色驱动，不管是塔娜·弗伦奇还是你刚才提到的那个作者莱恩，他们的作品也是地点驱动的。

But in addition to being character driven, whether we're talking about Tana French or we're talking about the author you just referenced, Lehane, they're also place driven.

这些书的独特性和氛围很大程度上来自于它们深深扎根于某个地方，以及那里的人、传统、口音、酒吧等等这些东西。

A lot of what gives the specificity and the atmosphere to these books is the fact that they're so grounded in a place and the people that live there and the traditions and the accents and the pubs and the bars and all of that stuff.

对。

Right.

它们基本上就是书里的角色。

They're basically characters in the books.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得最好的惊悚小说都有这个特点。

And I think the best thrillers have that.

比如说，丹尼斯·勒翰的作品里，这一点是怎么体现出来的？我知道你读过他不少书。

How is that sort of made clear in the work of Dennis Lehane, for example, which I know you've read a bunch of?

我是说，丹尼斯·勒翰，你知道的，波士顿那些工人阶级的爱尔兰社区，他的历史小说就是以那里为背景的。

I mean, Dennis Lehane, you know, the working class Irish neighborhoods of Boston, that's where he sets his historical novels.

而且你总是在了解一桩犯罪。

And you are always learning about a crime.

我是说，就拿《神秘河》来说吧，它讲的是三个朋友，小时候经历过一件创伤性的事件。

I mean, in the, you know, in the case of Mystic River, it's about three friends who went through a traumatic event when they were children.

嗯。

Mhmm.

故事就是跟着他们在这个街区里，几十年间的发展。

And it's following them in this neighborhood through the decades.

所以，没错，它讲的是犯罪和犯罪后的影响，但同时也是关于他们与这个地方的紧密联系。

And so, yes, it's about crime and the aftermath of crime, but it's also about this place that they're tied to.

对。

Right.

它讲的是救赎。

It's about redemption.

讲的是家庭。

It's about family.

讲的是朋友。

It's about friend.

就像，它们就是那种内容很丰富的大部头。

Like, it's just they are such big books.

是的。

Yeah.

而《神秘河》，莱恩的那本小说，排在了第二位。

And that Mystic River, Lehane's novel came in at number two.

第二位。

Number two.

另外，很多参与我们投票的人都觉得那是一部非常了不起的作品。

Another sort of preponderance of people who took our poll thought that was just a tremendous work.

我还提到另一位作家，他有好几本书都上了榜单，就是S。

Another author I mentioned who has several books on the list is S.

A。

A.

科斯比。

Cosby.

而且，我们再次看到，他的小说也是深深扎根于一个特定的地方。

And again, there we see someone whose fiction is so firmly set in a specific place.

对他来说，那就是南方的乡村，弗吉尼亚的乡村，也就是他这位作者生活和长大的地方。

In his case, it is the rural South, rural Virginia, which is where he, the author lives and where he grew up.

而且这个地方在惊悚小说里不常被写到。

And it is not necessarily a place we'd see written about a ton in thrillers.

它被描述为南方乡村黑色小说，你知道，扎根于那里黑人的经历，这又是我们在惊悚小说中不常看到的。

It has been described as southern rural noir, you know, grounded in the experiences of of black people down there, which again is something we don't see that much in thrillers.

这是我们在惊悚小说中不常看到的。

It's something we don't see that much in thrillers.

你知道，他呈现的南方。

It's something you know, the South he presents.

在他的南方，过去依然鲜活。

In his South, the past is very much alive.

确实。

Absolutely.

这正是这些书如此精彩的关键，因为你能看到所有角色背负的包袱。

And that is a key part of what makes these books so great because you see what baggage all the characters come with.

对。

Yeah.

我想，作为一个在南方的黑人，根本没法摆脱过去的阴影。

I I, you know, I imagine as a black person living in the South, there's no way to escape the past.

我记得在评论家德怀特·加纳写的关于S的专访里提到过。

I remember reading in the profile that our critic Dwight Garner wrote of S.

A.

A.

科斯比，说他上的高中是以罗伯特·E

Cosby, the fact that he went to a high school that was named after both Robert E.

什么李将军和杰斐逊·戴维斯之类的，你知道的，过去就无处不在。

Lee and Jefferson Davis or something, you know, just like that past is omnipresent there.

不管你是罪犯，还是像《罪人皆流血》里那样成为某个县的首位黑人警长，这都是你无法摆脱的历史包袱。

If you're a criminal in his books or if you are the first black sheriff in a particular county, as is the case in All the Sinners Bleed, It's just a legacy that you cannot escape.

种族和阶级问题，这些书里处处都渗透着这两点。

Race and class, these books are soaked through with both of those.

而且这些书的基调都很黑暗。

They're also they're pretty dark, these books.

这些书非常黑暗，非常暴力。

They're very dark, very violent.

非常暴力。

Very violent.

我读过一篇采访，不是德怀特写的那篇，是别处的，采访者就问，嘿。

I read an interview, not the one with Dwight, somewhere else where the interviewer's like, hey.

怎么回事？

What gives?

就是说，为什么这些书这么黑暗？

Like, why why are these books so dark?

然后他说，你看。

And he said, look.

这个世界就是黑暗的。

I'm the world is dark.

我写的是我看到的。

I'm writing what I see.

对。

Mhmm.

那么，蒂娜，你读了四十多本书。

So, Tina, you've read 40 something books.

莎拉，你在这个书单上读了三十多本。

Sarah, you've read 30 something books on this list.

你能看出一些主题吗？比如反复出现的主题、人物类型或者情节模式？

Are there themes, like recurring themes or character types or plot patterns that you can sort of discern?

在我们的书单里？

In our list?

是的。

Yeah.

我确实看到好几本书里都有邪恶小孩这个套路。

I do see the evil child trope here in several books.

好的。

Okay.

喜欢邪恶小孩。

Love an evil child.

喜欢邪恶小孩。

Love an evil child.

《捍卫雅各布》。

Defending Jacob.

《凯文怎么了》和《推》。

We need to talk about Kevin and the push.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

所以有三本。

So there's three.

我说的邪恶小孩是指，父母有这么一个孩子。

And by evil child, I mean, know, the parents have this kid.

可能这个孩子周围有很多其他孩子受伤。

Maybe a lot of other kids are getting hurt around this kid.

然后可能发生更糟糕的事情。

Then maybe something worse happens.

就像麦考利·卡尔金的那部电影《危险小天使》。

It's like the Macaulay Culkin movie, The Good Son.

不知道你还记不记得。

I don't know if you remember that.

不记得了。

I don't.

好吧。

Okay.

那这个引用就没什么意义了。

Well, then that reference means nothing.

可以剪掉。

We can cut it.

对。

Right.

但是我真的不太明白邪恶小孩这类小说的吸引力在哪，但我就是很喜欢。

But but I don't really know what the appeal of evil child novels is, but I love them.

莎拉，你喜欢这类小说吗？

Sarah, do you love them?

我觉得吸引人的地方在于，它有点像那种恶魔的概念。

I think it's the idea of it's like the sort of devil.

你知道，就是一个人是不是天生就带有邪恶？

You know, is it is there something inherently evil in someone?

我觉得《我们需要谈谈凯文》在这方面做得很好，它探讨了天性与教养的问题。

You know, I think, we need to talk about Kevin did a really good job with that with the sort of nature versus nurture.

书里的母亲承认自己从来就不喜欢儿子，结果他成了连环杀手。

It had a mother who admitted she was she never really liked her son, and then he turned out to be mass murderer.

所以也许她不喜欢他是对的，但她的行为是否影响了他的行为呢？

And so maybe she was right not to like him, but was her behavior toward him, did it contribute to how he behaved?

这就是那本令人不安的书里一个非常精彩的张力点。

And that's one of the really great tensions in that very disturbing book.

莎拉，我知道你曾经指出过的一个趋势，在最近榜单上的一本书里又出现了，就是莉兹·摩尔的《森林之神》。

Sarah, something that I know is a trend that you have called out recurs in one of the more recent books on this list, which is God of the Woods by Liz Moore.

这确实是过去几年里突然火起来的惊悚小说。

It does feel like the thriller of the past few years that's just broken out.

这就是你之前谈到的那个想法：以某种方式回到家乡或回到童年，不得不重新经历、重新审视或解开很久以前发生在你身上的某件事。

And it is this idea that you have talked about of going back to your home or going back to your childhood in some way and having to relive or revisit or untangle something that happened to you a long time ago.

我是说，在某种程度上，这是一种挺简单的剧情设计，因为它让你在一本书里能同时有好几个谜团。

It's I mean, in some ways, it's a sort of easy plot device to use because it enables you to, have multiple mysteries in one book.

而且，你知道，在很多作品里，就像那个播客主持人以前住在这个镇上，现在被叫回来做一个关于新谋杀案的播客。

And it's you know, in a lot of people, it's like the podcaster used to live in the town, now is called back to do a podcast on a new murder.

但是，哦，结果发现那个人过去也有一桩谋杀案，但他们不想谈。

But, oh, it turns out there was a murder in that person's past too, but they don't wanna talk about it.

就像，这种设定有很多变体。

Like, it's there's a lot of variations on that.

而且如果写得好，那绝对是非常精彩的。

And when done well, it's absolutely exquisite.

对。

Mhmm.

但我觉得这个套路有点用得太多了。

But it it's a bit overdone, I think.

我觉得人们应该更努力把它做好。

I think people should work harder to do a good job with it.

嗯，另一个属于这个套路的是吉莉安·弗琳的另一本书《利器》。

Well, one of the other titles that falls into that trope is another Gillian Flynn book, Sharp Objects.

天哪。

Oh my god.

那可是最好的之一。

Well, that's, like, one of the best.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我在想这个榜单的时候，因为对我来说，《利器》更锋利、更怪异、更吓人、更令人毛骨悚然。

And that's and I was, you know, thinking about this list because Sharp Objects to me, it's sharper, it's weirder, it's scarier, it's creepier.

而且从某些方面来说，虽然《消失的爱人》已经很不寻常了，但我觉得这本书更不寻常。

And in some ways, even though Gone Girl is unconventional, this is an even more unconventional, I think.

再说到背景设定。

And talk about setting.

我的意思是，你会沉浸在这个哥特式、古怪的南方小镇里，那里的人们努力维持体面，但为了维持体面却去杀人。

I mean, you're steeped into this Gothic, weird, southern, small town with, you know, people trying to keep up appearances but murdering people in order to do it.

对。

Mhmm.

你知道，还有几个疯子。

You know, several crazy people.

还有这个可怜的年轻女人，她恨透了住在那里，以至于在自己皮肤上刻了很多关于自己的难听的话，我相信那些话是她母亲用来形容她的，所以她浑身都是伤疤。

And this poor young woman who hated living there so much that she has cut onto her own skin a lot of mean words about herself that I believe her mother used to describe her, and it's so she's all scarred.

她是一名记者，被派回去报道一桩新谋杀案，这让她想起了过去的一切。

And she works as a reporter, and she's sent to go back to covering new murder that just brings back everything.

这本书真的很阴森，而且它的结局是这份名单上最令人毛骨悚然的之一。

It is such a creepy book, and it has one of the most chilling endings of anything on the list.

完全同意。

Totally.

真的很好。

It's really good.

真的很好。

It's really good.

而且有一部改编自《利器》的剧，由艾米·亚当斯主演。

And there is, an adaptation of Sharp Objects starring Amy Adams.

帕特丽夏·克拉克森。

Patricia Clarkson.

帕特丽夏·克拉克森演母亲。

Patricia Clarkson as the mother.

太棒了。

It's so good.

对吧？

Right?

然后呢，你知道，你走到那个黑暗的结局，才知道发生了什么。

And the there is you know, you you you come to this dark end and you learn what happened.

然后如果我没记错的话，虽然可能记错，但剧集片尾字幕滚动时，你会看到那个制造所有混乱的角色在干一些剧里没演出来的坏事，这真的让我做噩梦了。

And then if I'm recalling correctly, and it may not be, but the credits of the show role, and you see the character who's responsible for all the mayhem doing some of the crimes that they did not show in the and it actually gave me nightmares.

我因为这个片尾字幕梦到了这部剧。

I I dreamt about this show because of these credits.

就是拍得太好了。

It's just so well done.

还有，你知道，《消失的爱人》被改编成了大卫·芬奇执导的知名电影，由本·阿弗莱克和罗莎蒙德·派克主演。

And, you know, Gone Girl made into a a well known David Fincher movie starring Ben Affleck and and Rosamund Pike.

我们清单上有好多作品都被改编成了电影、电视剧或迷你剧，有些还挺不错的。

There's so many titles on our list that have been adapted into movies or into TV shows and miniseries, some of them quite good.

我在想，这个类型到底有什么特别之处，让它这么适合改编成影视作品呢？

And I'm wondering what is it about this genre in particular that makes it so ripe for screen adaptation?

因为它们情节驱动性强。

They're plot driven.

对吧？

Right?

叙事张力就蕴含在其中。

The narrative tension is baked into them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就像你想读一本让人不停翻页的书一样，那种电影也是你想去看的。

And the same way you want to read a book where you're just flipping through the pages, that's the kind of movie you wanna go see.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得这些书改编成电影，难度不亚于写书本身。

The movie versions of some of these books, I think, would have been as hard to make as writing the book itself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想到的是《消失的爱人》。

And I I am thinking of Gone Girl here.

我完全同意。

I I totally agree.

它确实拍得很好。

It really did justice to it.

有时候，如果你喜欢一本书，并且对改编非常期待，我会觉得很难。

I I find it it hard sometimes if you love a book and you're so excited about the adaptation.

它就是达不到你期望的那样。

It just doesn't live up to what you had hoped.

我记得你之前提到过，就《消失的爱人》而言，我觉得改编有点削弱了原著的微妙之处，因为在屏幕上很难表现不可靠的叙述。

And I think you had mentioned before, with Gone Girl, it sort of slightly flattens out, in my mind, the adaptation, the the subtlety of the book, because it's harder to do unreliability on screen.

对吧？

Right?

那你怎么做到呢？

How do you do that?

你怎么在屏幕上看到某个东西，就知道它不可靠呢？

How do you look at something on screen and know that it's unreliable?

这确实很难。

Like, it's a whole it's hard.

难多了。

It's much harder.

难太多了。

It's much, much harder.

所以有些书，你知道吗，我为书感到遗憾，因为如果你看了《消失的爱人》的电影，你可能就不会去读原著了，而在我看来，原著比电影更好。

And so some of those, you know, I feel bad for the book because if you'd seen the movie of Gone Girl, you might not bother to read the book, and the book, in my mind, is better than the movie.

我甚至不确定我会选本·阿弗莱克来演。

I'm not even sure Ben I would've cast Ben Affleck either.

他给我的印象不像是

He didn't strike me

那个人。

as that guy.

但是你会选谁来演呢？

But Who would you have cast?

不知道。

Don't know.

当然，我总是希望瑞恩·高斯林能演所有角色。

I of course, I always want Ryan Gosling to be in everything.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

嘿。

Hey.

我和你一样。

You and me both.

他太棒了。

He's great.

他真的很棒。

He's great.

看到一些伟大的导演接手这些作品，确实很吸引人。

It it is it is fascinating to see, you know, some of the great directors take on some of these titles.

对吧？

Right?

《消失的爱人》是大卫·芬奇执导的，他还执导了斯蒂格·拉尔森的《龙纹身的女孩》，那本书排名第四。

Gone Girl, David Fincher, who also took on The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, the Stieg Larsson book, which came in at number four.

克林特·伊斯特伍德执导了《神秘河》的电影改编。

Clint Eastwood directed the movie adaptation of Mystic River.

那部电影真的非常出色。

And that was that was an extraordinary movie.

《老无所依》获得了最佳影片提名，科恩兄弟执导了这部科马克·麦卡锡的小说，它排名第五，最终赢得了最佳影片。

Nominated for best picture, No Country for Old Men, which the Cohn Brothers directed, the Cormac McCarthy novel, which came in at number five, won best picture.

《流人》是一部备受好评的电视剧。

Slow Horses is a TV series that is critically acclaimed.

《禁闭岛》是由马丁·斯科塞斯执导的。

Shutter Island was directed by Martin Scorsese.

你知道吗，《永恒的园丁》被改编成了一部非常棒的电影。

You know, The Constant Gardner was made into an amazing movie.

有一种方式，可以让这种情节驱动型的故事在银幕上大放异彩，并且增添一种高级感。

There is a way in which you can take this thing that is so plot driven and and really make it sing on the screen and and sort of add a level of prestige to it.

在某些地方。

Somewhere.

或者导演和编剧真正理解了原著。对。

Or the director and the screenwriter really understand the book Yeah.

他们想忠实于原著，而不是他们自己的想法。

And they wanna do justice to what the book is rather than what they want.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

那才是真正了不起的地方。

That's what's really great.

而且我觉得你提到的那些导演，真的深入理解了这本书为什么好，以及书里那些复杂的部分，他们不想一带而过。

And I think all those directors that you mentioned really got into why the book is so good and the sort of complications of the book that they didn't wanna gloss over.

他们想把这些拍进电影里。

They wanted to put in the film.

对。

Mhmm.

但是你知道吗，莎拉，谁的书没有被拍成好电影呢？

But you know, Sarah, who doesn't have great movies made from their books?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

很多朋友。

Ton of friends.

太可惜了。

It's so sad.

那有没有拍成电视剧呢？

Is there even a TV series?

有拍过电视剧，但拍得不太好。

There was a TV series about it was not

那个电视剧是把几本书的内容揉在一起，搞成一个连续剧，这主意挺蠢的。

Well, it was a TV series where it tried to have a few of the books sort of rolled into one continuing series, which, a, was stupid idea.

而且我觉得演员选得都不合适，看着真让人难受。

B, I thought everybody was miscast, and it just it was so sad.

我本来特别希望它能拍好的。

I wanted it to like it so much.

其实凯特·阿特金森那本《案件简史》改编得也一样，那本书特别棒。

And the same, actually, with the adaptation of the Kate Atkinson book that's on our list, Case Histories, which is such a fantastic book.

杰森·艾萨克是个好演员，他在里面演主角侦探，演得特别好。

And Jason Isaacs, who's a great actor, plays the main detective in that, who's wonderful.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但它就是没法拍出原著的精髓。

But it just couldn't do justice.

我觉得它拍成了电视剧而不是电影，而且剧情有点散漫。

I thought it was a series rather than a film, and it started it sort of meandered.

坦白说，它没有达到我期望的水平。

It just wasn't as good as it I would have liked, frankly.

就像

As

你们回顾这份书单，差不多二十五年的惊悚小说，蒂娜，你提到过，这个世纪早期的书比你们预想的要多。

you both look back on this list, twenty five or so years of thrillers, Tina, you talked about the fact that there are more books from the early part of the century than you would have expected.

但我很好奇，有没有一些以前惊悚小说里经常出现的情节，现在的读者，过了二十年，可能就不买账了？

But I'm curious, are there things that used to show up in thrillers all the time that maybe today's audiences a couple of decades later wouldn't go along with?

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

我对此有好几个想法。

I have several thoughts about this.

一个是，手机的出现彻底改变了惊悚小说。

One is that the advent of cell phones completely changed thrillers.

我是说，它毁了一切，毁了电影。

I mean, it it ruins every it ruins movies.

它毁了一切。

It ruins everything.

但是，我们再说远一点，比如一本我们都很喜欢的书《秘史》，我觉得我们都读过。

But, I mean, let's go back to even further, say, to a favorite book like Secret History, which I think we've all read.

吉尔伯特，告诉我你读过那本书。

Gilbert, tell me you've read that book.

我读过，是的。

I've read yes.

我读过好几遍了。

I've read it several times.

好的。

Okay.

好吧。

Fine.

你能想象吗？你有点防备了，

Can you imagine that You're getting a little defensive there,

是吗？

are you?

我没有。

I'm not.

我只是肩膀耸起来，不代表我在防备。

Just because my shoulders are hunching up does not mean I'm getting defensive.

但那本书现在行不通了。

But that that book couldn't work now.

比如，什么？

Like, what?

朋友们要一起出去旅行，把手机放在同一个地方，然后走开，这根本行不通。

The friends are all gonna, like, take a little trip and put their phones in the same place and then go, it's just not gonna work.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，这确实改变了侦查的性质。

Well, it really changes the nature of detection.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们总能知道你在哪里，除非……我的意思是，所以现在很多书为了克服这个难题，花很多篇幅写，比如，他拔出了SIM卡。

Because they can always figure out where you were unless I mean, and so a lot of books now to try to get over that hump, you know, spend a lot of time saying, you know, he took out his SIM card.

他把手机扔了。

He threw his phone away.

他……那里没有手机信号。

He There was no cell service.

没有手机信号。

There's no cell service.

这是个重要因素。

That's a big one.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

但是一次性手机，那可是个大问题。

But Burner phone, that's a big thing.

但这也太烦人了。

But it's so annoying.

处理那些事情要花很长时间。

It takes so long to deal with that stuff.

我知道。

I know.

但另一方面，现在的读者比二十五年前精明多了。

But the other thing is, like, readers are more sophisticated than they were twenty five years ago.

比如，看过很多真实犯罪节目的人，每个人都成了专家。

Like, everyone that has watched a lot of true crime, Everyone's an expert in everything.

现在要让人暂时放下怀疑就更难了。

And suspending your disbelief is harder now.

比如，作家们必须把细节写对。

Like, writers have to get it right.

你懂吗？

You know?

我觉得，

I I think

尤其是蒂娜，因为她真的，你知道，对那起调查的情况了如指掌。

Especially with Tina because she's really in you know, knows exactly what's going on with that investigation.

我只是觉得，在几十年前的惊悚小说里，作家们，你知道，有一定的自由度，可以说是能蒙混过关。

I just think in I just think in thrillers decades ago, writers, you know, had a certain amount of leeway, let's say, to get away with things.

对。

Mhmm.

而且我

And I

觉得现在不是那样了。

don't think that's the case anymore.

我的意思是，在这个时代，你只要谷歌一下就能找到答案，我是说

I mean, in an era where you can just, like, Google a solution, I mean

而且，人们也可以谷歌一下，比如当他们提到历史事件、描述某件事或者谈论警察办案程序的时候。

And also, people can Google stuff about, you know, when they refer to historical events or describe something or talk about police procedure.

你知道吗，你可以谷歌一下，看看是不是真的。

You know, you can Google and see if it's true.

如果你发现作者没有做足功课，比如对医患关系的描写很马虎，那就会开始削弱你的信任。我觉得这份名单很棒的一点是，几乎每一本都经得起推敲，作为真正的小说、文学作品。

And if you realize the author hasn't done their work, they're sloppy about, you know, the patient doctor relationship, for example, that starts to, you know, chip away if you're and I would say I mean, I think one of the great things about this list is almost everything really stands up as a as a real novel, as a piece of literature.

我的意思是，真的是很棒的书。

I mean, really fantastic books.

名单上有几本书，我当初读的时候很喜欢，部分原因是情节出人意料，或者看待事物的角度很新颖，但现在我觉得它们完全是粗制滥造的作品。

There's a couple on here who that I liked a lot when I read them partly because they were surprising plots and sort of a new way of looking at something, and now I think are total schlock.

我不会说是哪几本。

And I'm not gonna say what they are.

对我来说是粗制滥造。

Schlocky to me.

那怎么样？

How about that?

对。

Yeah.

我是说，你提到这个很有意思，莎拉，因为我们刚才在谈类型小说，事实是，在我们评选的21世纪百佳图书榜单上，惊悚小说并不多。

I mean, it's funny that you bring that up, Sarah, because there we're talking about genre, the fact that there weren't a ton of thrillers on our mega 100 list of the best books of the twenty first century.

我同意。

I agree.

我觉得，不管你说的是惊悚小说、奇幻小说还是其他类型，它们仍然不被视为文学，不像文学小说那样。

I think there's a way in which whether you're talking about thrillers or fantasy or other genres, they're still not considered literature, literary fiction in the same way.

我想我们三个人都同意，这份榜单上有很多书具有很高的文学性、人物发展和主题共鸣，而且这两者并不互相排斥。

I think the three of us all agree that there are many books on this list that have a high level of literary writing, character development, thematic resonance, and that the two are not mutually exclusive.

它们并不互相排斥，但这种偏见确实存在。

They are not mutually exclusive, but it is a bias that exists.

今天准备播客的时候，我回去查了一下，比如，看看皮蒂·詹姆斯或鲁斯·伦德尔是否曾入围布克奖。

When I was getting ready for the podcast today, I went back to look, for example, to see if Petey James or Ruth Rindell had ever been shortlisted for a booker.

皮蒂·詹姆斯有一次入围了候选名单。

Petey James, one time, was on a shortlist.

比如，八十年代和九十年代最伟大的两位犯罪小说作家，却连一次提名都没有。

Like, the two greatest crime writers of, like, the eighties and nineties, and not a single nod.

对。

Mhmm.

但我觉得这也是英国文学界的势利眼。

But that's also the snobbery, I think, of the British literary establishment.

确实。

True.

约翰·班维尔，他开始写惊悚小说时用了笔名。

And John Banville, he started writing thrillers, used an assumed name.

但现在他又改回约翰·马诺了，这还挺棒的。

But now he's reverted back to John Manor, which is kinda great.

对吧？

Right?

确实很棒。

Is kind of great.

但是，你知道，那种认为它低人一等的想法，所以他不打算用真名出版。

But, you know, the whole idea that it was somehow lesser than, so he wasn't gonna he wasn't gonna publish them under his name.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们休息一下。

We are going to take a break.

回来后，我们会聊聊这份名单上的另外几本书，一些让我们惊喜的，我们最喜欢的，还有那些我们觉得应该上榜但没入选的。

And when we come back, we're gonna talk about a few more books on this list, some that surprised us, our favorites, and then maybe ones that we feel should have made it but didn't quite make the cut.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

《纽约时报》应用解锁了？

The New York Times app unlocked?

谁都知道《纽约时报》是收费的。

Everyone knows The Times is behind a paywall.

只有订阅者才能访问所有的报道。

Only subscribers have access to all the reporting.

但如果你能免费探索《纽约时报》一个月，而且不用输入信用卡信息呢？

But what if you could explore The Times for a month for free without putting in a credit card?

现在你可以了。

Now you can.

当你第一次下载《纽约时报》应用时，你的第一个月是免费的。

When you download The New York Times app for the first time, your first month in the app is free.

一个月的时间，你可以越过付费墙，看看《纽约时报》订阅者每天都能看到什么。

A month to go behind the paywall to see what Times subscribers get every single day.

所有的调查报道、评论、食谱，以及那些深度报道的、基于事实的新闻。

All the investigations, the reviews, the recipes, the deeply reported fact based journalism.

如果你还没有订阅《纽约时报》，今天就下载《纽约时报》应用，免费获取三十天的访问权限。

If you don't already subscribe to The New York Times, download the Times app today and get free access for thirty days.

蒂娜和莎拉，我们已经讨论了这个榜单上的一些重量级作品。

Tina and Sarah, we have talked about some of the heavy hitters on this list.

人们多次提到，也讨论了一些我们在情节上看到的模式。

People have shown up, multiple times, talked about a few of the patterns maybe that we've seen plot wise.

但是有没有一本书让你感到意外？

But was there a book that surprised you?

有。

There was.

我很惊讶也很高兴看到《我的姐姐，连环杀手》这本书，作者是奥扬肯·布雷斯韦特。

I was surprised and delighted to see My Sister, The Serial Killer by Oyanken Braithwaite.

它排名很高。

It came in so high.

它排名很高。

It came in so high.

我想它排在第六位。

I think it's at number six.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是我没想到能写出来的东西。

So it's something that I didn't know could be written.

这是一本有趣的连环杀手小说。

It's a funny serial killer novel.

讲的是尼日利亚的一位护士，她漂亮的小妹妹有个让人不安的习惯，就是杀掉自己的男朋友。

It's about this nurse in Nigeria whose beautiful little sister has this very disconcerting habit of killing her boyfriends.

所以她总是得替妹妹收拾烂摊子，然后她妹妹又决定要跟一个医生约会。

And so, like, she she's always gotta clean up after her, and then her sister decides she wants to go out with a doctor.

而我们的叙述者暗恋这个医生，突然之间——

And our narrator has a crush on this doctor, and all of a sudden

哦，不。

Oh, no.

哦，哦，不。

Oh, oh, no.

但有趣的是，比如，你知道，一个男朋友以某种可怕的方式被杀后，她得阻止她妹妹上社交媒体，不让她表现得那么活泼开心。

But the funny the funny things are, like, after after, you know, a boyfriend gets offed in some horrible way, like, she'll have to stop her sister from going on social media and being all bubbly and happy.

我真的没讲好，但这确实很有趣。

And I'm not I'm really not conveying this, but it is funny.

莎拉？

Sarah?

这本书真的很棒，但我有点惊讶，也很高兴看到《我们需要谈谈凯文》在这份名单上。

It's such a great book, but I was sort of surprised and very pleasantly to see we need to talk about Kevin on this list.

它算是惊悚小说，因为讲的是一个男孩在学校开枪射杀同学的故事，我想。

It's thriller ish because it is about a boy who shoots up his school, I guess.

那就是惊悚。

That's a thriller.

而且你

And you

从第一页就知道了。

know that from the first page.

对。

Yeah.

确实。

You do.

实际上，结尾有一个令人震惊和难过的情节转折。

There is a there is, like, a, like, a shocking and upsetting plot twist at the end, actually.

但大部分内容是对邪恶的深入探讨，涉及天性对教养、育儿、孩子，以及我们对孩子的爱与恨。

But mostly, it's a real examination of evil, of nature versus nurture, of parenting and children and our love and our hate for our children.

与其说是一本有趣的书，不如说它更像是对重要问题的深入剖析。

And it's much more of a sort of deep dive into important issues than it is a fun book to read.

比如，我就是觉得读起来非常艰难，而且让人深感不安。

Like, I just I found it really, really hard going and deeply upsetting.

但我很喜欢这本书，我是和我的读书会一起读的。

But I loved it, and I read it with my book club.

我觉得很多读书会都会读这本书。

And I think a lot of book clubs read it.

你知道吗？

You know?

很多读书会里的女性和妈妈们真的把它当作一个切入点，来深入讨论养育孩子的大问题。

Lot of women and mothers in book clubs who really used it as a way to get into big discussions about raising our kids.

我不知道我能不能读这本书。

I don't know if I could read this.

我就是有种感觉，它会在某种程度上把我击垮。

I just I I have a feeling it's gonna it's gonna wreck me in some way.

它确实击垮了我，而且我是在它刚出版的时候读的。

It's it it's wrecked me, and I read it, you know, whenever it came out.

所以这么多年，我一直被它影响着。

So it's been on many years of wreckage.

对。

Right.

我同意你的看法。

And I'm with you.

结尾的那个反转

The the twist at the end

哦。

Oh.

真是让人心碎。

Is It just kills you.

确实让人心碎。

It kills you.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

蒂娜，我很好奇。

Tina, I'm curious.

我觉得在过去十年里，我们看到了很多精彩的翻译惊悚小说。

I I feel like over the past decade, let's say, we've seen so many wonderful thrillers in translation.

这种事情已经变得越来越普遍了。

This is a thing that has become more of a thing.

而这些书不一定出现在这个名单上，因为我觉得我们可能还处于这个趋势的早期到中期阶段。

And those books are not necessarily represented on this list because I feel like maybe we're still in the early to mid stages of this.

但感觉如果你是惊悚小说迷，翻译作品进入这个领域的方式让它变得更有趣了。

But it feels like if you are a thriller fan, the way in which books and translation have sort of penetrated the space makes it that much more fun.

我同意。

I agree.

我确实认为《龙纹身的女孩》是引发这一切的，尤其是斯堪的纳维亚的悬疑和惊悚小说，你知道，我不知道你是否读过很多，但天哪，那些书真的很黑暗。

I do think that Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was, like, what sort of kicked this off, certainly for the Scandinavian mysteries and thrillers, which, you know, I don't know if you've read many of those, but, boy, those are dark.

瑞典人肯定很严肃。

The Swedes must be seriously.

那些，你知道，我也很喜欢《龙纹身的女孩》。

And those and those you know, I I loved the girl with the dragon that too.

很多斯堪的纳维亚的作品都属于让我不舒服的类别，因为它们似乎在比赛谁更能残害和折磨受害者。

I a lot of the Scandinavian ones fit in the category of stuff that I I I am uncomfortable because they seem to compete in how much they can mutilate and torture their victims.

然后就像，这里有个场景，八个受害者都长着鹿头，被展示出来。

And it's like, here's a tableau with eight victims who all have the heads of deer, and they're displayed.

真是太恶心了。

It's just gross.

但是，它们也确实很好。

But, they're also really good.

对。

Right.

而且它们非常非常受欢迎。

And they're very, very popular.

不是，你知道，不同斯堪的纳维亚国家有不同的作品，所以它们不都是这种亨宁·曼凯尔风格。

Not you know, there's different ones from different Scandinavian countries, so they're not all in this sort of henning minkarel mold.

但这是近年来的一个大趋势。

But that is a big trend in recent years.

对吧？

Right?

而且现在有很多小型出版社，专门出版这类刑侦小说和翻译作品。

And they're now, like, small presses that just published, like, procedurals and translations.

对。

Mhmm.

捷克、德国、波兰，还有南美的一些国家。

Czech, German, Polish, you know, countries in South America.

其实，通过阅读发生在某个国家的刑侦小说，是了解那个国家的好方法。

It's actually a great way to learn something about a country is to read a police procedural set there.

没错。

That's it.

每次旅行的时候，你应该带上一本

Whenever you travel, you should take

是的。

Yeah.

你应该带一本以那个国家为背景的惊悚小说。

You should take a thriller set in that country.

对，就像有些电视剧那样。

Well, just just the way some of the TV shows.

比如《谋杀》，你知道吧，那部剧最初是设定在斯堪的纳维亚国家的。

So The Killing, you know, that TV show was first set in a Scandinavian country.

对吧？

Right?

后来被翻拍成美国版，就变得很不一样了。

And then it was remade into an American thing, and it was very different.

是的。

Mhmm.

还有那部很棒的法国电视剧《桥》。

And also that great French TV show, The Bridge.

是不是讲法国侦探的？

Is that what it is about French detective.

真的很有意思。

Really interesting.

所以我觉得，这种影响是双向的。

So it does work both ways, I think.

对。

Yeah.

我记得几年前我去伦敦参加书展的时候，所有橱窗里都摆着这本书，《黄油》。

I remember when I was in London a few years ago for the London Book Fair, in all of the front windows was this book, Butter.

哦，是的，作者是……

By Oh, yes.

柚木麻子，那是一部日本惊悚小说。

Osaka Yuzuki, which was a Japanese, thriller.

那本书在那里非常火。

It was huge there.

当时还没在美国出版。

It hadn't come to The States yet.

我记得好像是那年晚些时候才出版的。

I think it was published later that year.

感觉日本惊悚小说也开始这样了。

It does feel like Japanese thrillers as well starting to.

它们正火呢。

They are having a moment.

对。

Yeah.

而且我们评论过那本书。

And and we reviewed that.

那本书真的很好。

It was such a good book.

对。

Yeah.

而且它有一种搞笑的调调，就像《我的姐姐是连环杀手》那样。

And and it had a sort of funny tone to it, just the way My Sister the Serial Killer did too.

书里的黄油是关于一个喜欢吃的女人，这其实是这本很棒的女权主义书的一个次要主题。

And the butter in it is about a lady who likes to eat a lot, and that's a that's a sort of sub theme in in this great feminist book, actually.