乔恩·洛维特：是时候大喊大叫了

而且我们炸了很多东西。

And it's we've bombed a lot of shit.

我的意思是，我们的轰炸成绩相当不错。

I mean, we've been pretty good on the bomb scorecard.

你知道的。

You know?

我们炸毁的他们的东西，比他们炸毁我们的要多。

We've hit more of their shit than they've hit of our shit.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以这很好。

So that's good.

我们在赢。

Winning.

这就是杀伤力。

That's lethality.

这就是胜利。

That's winning.

我们不小心炸了一所孤儿院，但同时，你知道的，我们也击中了他们的导弹。

We did accidentally hit an orphanage, but we're also, you know, hitting their missiles.

所以我们可以谈谈这一点。

So we could talk about that.

而且我也可以某种程度上，借用我派去那里的人们的英勇精神。

And I can also kind of, like, borrow the valor of the people that I'm sending there.

你知道的？

You know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我有把握。

I've got this.

我可以，你知道的，描绘出一种模糊的、由ChatGPT生成的美国式故事，关于那些士兵，还有来自西德克萨斯留着胡子的男人，以及那个自愿参战的女性，你知道的，他正试图这么做。

I can, you know, kind of paint this gauzy chat GPT version of, you know, an Americana story of the the soldiers and, you know, the mustachioed man from West Texas and the woman who volunteered to fight and, you know, I I got he's trying to do that.

就是这样。

That kind of thing.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

他觉得也许我能凭意志创造出某种关于这场战争的英雄主义色彩，或者说是值得骄傲的东西？

And he feels like maybe I can I can will into existence something that is heroic about this or, you know, something to be proud of about this?

如果我强调有多少人参与了轰炸，强调我们士兵的勇气，也许人们就无法反驳我，也无法指出这是我们在很长一段时间里卷入的最愚蠢的战争——而这一点确实值得竞争，因为我们已经参与过不少愚蠢的战争了。

If I focus on how many people were bombing and the courage of our people, and maybe then people won't be able to undermine me and point out that this is the stupidest war that we've gotten into in a long time, and that's a competitive category because we've been in quite a few dumb ones.

是的。

Yeah.

他走进每一个房间时都感到自己处处被压制，即使在那些本该由他主导的地方，面对这些将军的目光，他一定有这种感受。

And the feeling he must have in these rooms with, you know, he's outmatched in every room he walks into, even places where he's meant to be in charge, how that must feel to look at these generals in the eyes.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他在简报室里也处于劣势。

Well, then he gets outmatched to the briefing room.

因为在简报室里，他总是觉得：为什么

Then he gets outmatched in the briefing room because he's like Why does

他还要继续做简报呢？

he do the briefings anymore, really?

对。

Right.

你知道，因为问题都集中在他们失败的方方面面。

You know, because the questions are about all the ways in which they failed.

我的看法是，我认为情况已经比人们真正意识到的要糟糕得多。

My view on it is I think that it's already far worse than people have really Yeah.

内部早已接受的中长期损害难以预测，但将在经济、地缘政治和军事各方面显现。

Accepted internally and that the, like, medium term damage is hard to predict, but it's going to be across economic, geopolitical, militarily.

这简直就是一场难以想象的泥潭，他们将不可能从中脱身。

Like like, this is just an unimaginable quagmire that is going to be impossible for them to disentangle themselves from.

即使特朗普现在就急于脱身，其影响也将在他余下的总统任期内持续回荡。

And even if Trump runs for the exits as we are talking right now, like, the ramifications are going to echo for the rest of his presidency.

这就是我的观点。

That's where I'm at

对此。

on it.

唐纳德·特朗普是一个短视的人，他做的一切都是在透支未来。

Donald Trump is a short term thinker who borrows against the future in everything he's ever done.

在他的一生和政治生涯中，他一直受到共和党人的怯懦和美国韧性的庇护。

And he has been, throughout his life and his time in politics, protected by the cowardice of Republicans and the resilience of America.

美国的韧性一直是他在这一切中的强大保护伞，对吧？

The resilience of America has been his great protector through all of this, right?

而我国制度对遏制他最极端行为的反弹，实际上在某种意义上也保护了他。

And the resilience of our institutions to push back against his worst excesses actually protects him in some sense.

这在第一任期中发生了许多，也是本任期正在发生的一部分。

That's a lot of what happened in the first term, it's part of what's happening in this term.

但还有美国经济的韧性。

But also the resilience of the American economy.

我认为很多人对经济能够承受这些全球性关税感到惊讶。

I think there are a lot of people that were surprised by how much the economy was able to withstand these global tariffs.

我认为有些人曾预测影响会更严重，这是事实，对吧？

I think there were people that predicted the impact would be worse, that's the truth, right?

人们说这些关税会很糟糕，它们确实让物价上涨，带来了负面影响，但我们挺过来了，我们确实挺过来了，这完全是事实。

People said, oh, these are going be terrible, and they have been terrible for prices, and they've had a negative we weathered it, we have weathered it, that's just absolutely the truth.

这些成本很糟糕，我们本不该这么做。

They're bad costs, we shouldn't have done it.

我认为他在这里也寄希望于同样的事情，即我们能够承受其影响。

And I think he's counting on the same thing here, that we can weather the implications of this.

我们的盟友可以承受特朗普在全球范围内反复无常的欺凌，但到了某个时刻，这就不成立了。

Our alliances can weather Trump's, like, mercurial bullying across the world, but at a certain point, that's just not true.

这不再成立。

It stops being true.

我们能承受的限度是有限的，而他一再施压、一再施压，我们只能买单。

There's only so much we can take, and, like, he just pushes it and pushes it and pushes it, we'll just pay.

未来几年我们都要为此买单。

We're just gonna pay for years to come.

但我觉得这是无法承受的，这大概就是我的看法。

But I think this is unweatherable, I guess, is my take.

这种观点并不受欢迎，你知道，因为你不想成为那个总是说‘这就要完了’的反特朗普评论员。

This is a not a not a popular thing to do, you know, because you don't wanna be you don't wanna be the never Trump pundit that's like, this is the end.

衣服的墙进来了。

The walls of clothes in.

有很多很多，你知道的，特朗普的围墙正在收紧，沙漠里到处都是残骸。

Lot of lot of, you know, carcasses in the desert of the walls are closing in on Trump.

需要时间。

Takes.

但我觉得这一次是扛不住的。

But I I don't think that this one is weatherable.

我的意思是，你知道的，谁知道呢？

I mean, I you know, who knows?

他再也不会竞选任何职位了。

He's not ever running for anything again.

所以我想，我的意思是，这取决于你怎么定义这个说法。

So I guess, I mean, it depends what you mean by the definition of that.

但我就是觉得，他这次在政治上受到了永久性的损伤，而以前他并没有这样。

But I just I I I think that he he he's permanently politically damaged by it in a way that at the other times he wasn't.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

我认为这更像卡特里娜飓风后的布什，或者通胀迟迟得不到缓解后的拜登——人们觉得他太老了，对他还打算参选感到震惊，从此一蹶不振，情况自我强化。

I think this is more like Bush after Katrina or Biden after kind of inflation hadn't resolved quickly enough and people determined that he was too old and were shocked that he was considering to run again, and there was no coming back from it, and they were self perpetuating.

我认为问题在于这种混乱局面，而不是没能控制物价，也不是汽油价格即将在全国范围内涨到每加仑5美元，而是他到处带人参观宴会厅，我觉得这让他彻底陷入困境。

I think this is the chaos of this, not like the failure to address prices, the fact that gas prices are now gonna hit $5 a gallon across the country, plus him going around showing people the ballroom, like I think this is locking him in.

但他仍然在共和党内部保持人气。

But he still remains popular on the Republican side.

那就是，那就是

That's the And that's

你没有选奥巴马的某个关键节点，比如奥巴马没能推动辛普森-鲍尔斯方案之后，或者索林德拉事件之后的情况。

you didn't pick a Obama flashpoint, like Obama after he failed to do Simpson Bowles, you know, Obama after Solyndra or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

索林德拉。

Solyndra.

所以你刚才说的，我听到了。

So Did you say I listen.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

所以

So

我这么做就是为了激你，你继续说吧。

I did it to trigger you, so go ahead.

共和党人花了十年时间谈论索林德拉。

Republicans spent a decade talking about sylindran.

如果你没跟上20年代的政治动态，如果你是因为特朗普才开始关注政治，或者你是个独立思考的人，可能对2010年代后期的重大政治斗争不太熟悉。

And if you're not caught up on your 20, if you if you turned into politics after because of Trump, whatever, or if you're a a kind of an independent spirited person who maybe isn't familiar with the great the great political battles of the of the late twenty tens.

揪住不放。

Claw at it.

索林德拉是贷款计划的一部分。

Solender was a loan part of a loan program.

这家公司倒闭了。

The company failed.

政府损失了5亿3500万美元。

The government lost $535,000,000.

这是一起丑闻。

That was a scandal.

进行了调查。

There were investigations.

举行了听证会。

There were hearings.

这是对纳税人资金的巨大浪费。

It was the great great waste of taxpayer dollars.

政府挑选了赢家和输家。

Government picked winners and losers.

这个项目最终实现了盈利。

That program ultimately turned a profit.

我们在那个贷款担保计划上赚了钱。

We made money on that loan guarantee program.

唐纳德·特朗普上周支付了十亿美元给一家法国公司，以阻止他们建造风力涡轮机。

Donald Trump last week gave a billion dollars to a French company to make them not build windmills.

这些人根本不会举行任何听证会。

There'll never be a fucking hearing from these people.

就这样。

That's it.

我想说的就这些。

That's all I wanted to say.

他支付了十亿美元。

He paid up a billion dollars.

整体能源。

Total energy.

而且，我觉得我们这周也在沙特阿拉伯的停机坪上损失了一架5.35亿美元的飞机，原因是我们在毫无理由的情况下发动了一场战争。

And, I mean, I think we lost a $535,000,000 plane on the tarmac in Saudi Arabia this week too because of a because of a war that we started for no no reason.

这实际上可能会产生与他们预期相反的效果，影响伊朗展示其力量的能力。

That is gonna actually probably have the reversed effect of what they're hoping for as far as Iran's ability to project power.

所以我们继续前进。

So we move forward.

我想和你聊聊一些移民问题。

I wanna talk to you about some immigration stuff.

我看到你了。

I saw you.

这条内容出现在我的推荐算法里。

This came on my on my algorithm.

好的。

Okay.

就在那儿。

And there it was.

那是乔恩·洛维特在美丽的歪曲媒体办公室外的街上。

It was Jon Lovett on the street outside of the beautiful crooked media offices.

所以乔恩·洛维特就在这个世界上。

So it was Jon Lovett in the world.

好的。

Okay.

我想你当时参加了‘无国王’集会。

And you were at, I believe, the No Kings rally.

没错。

That's right.

你当时谈到了MAGA右翼的移民议程。

And you were talking about the MAGA rights immigration agenda.

现在关于驱逐出境、国土安全部资金不足，以及他们那种血与土民族主义的软弱性，情况如何？

What's happening right now with the deportations, with DHS not being funded, and how they were and the weakness of their blood and soil nationalism.

我当时就想，这番即兴发言真不错，我很喜欢。

And I was I was like, that's pretty good off the cuff bit, but I love it.

我不知道这是否是你在多个播客或其他场合反复打磨过的段子，但我很想和你深入探讨一下。

So I don't know if that's shtick you've been working on, that you've been kind of workshopping in various podcasts or any any place, but I wanna I wanna explore it with you.

你基本上是在谈论MAGA右翼血与土民族主义的空洞本质。

You're you're basically talking about the hollowness of the MAGA Rides blood and soil nationalism.

是的

Yeah.

所以我在那里感受到了一些东西。

So something I felt there out there.

我们在洛杉矶市中心。

We were at we were downtown in in LA.

这次的No Kings抗议活动比之前的规模更大。

It was a bigger No Kings protest than the one that came before.

而且，你知道，有大量不同背景的人前来参与。

And, you know, like, it's a big coalition of people showing up.

人非常多。

There are a lot of people.

我走进去时，第一眼看到的是一个女士。

I walked in, like, the first people I saw were she was a lady.

她问我：‘你想知道共产党对埃普斯坦文件的看法吗？’

She was like, do wanna know what the communists think about the Epstein files?

我当时想，我其实并不知道，但我很感激你在这里，祝你好运。

And I was like, I don't actually, but I appreciate that you're out here and, you know, good luck.

实际上，这可能是你和共产党唯一能达成一致的地方。

You're it's actually a like, that's a one maybe the one spot where you and the communist find some lines.

但我们现在在凡德格拉夫。

But that's what we're up in the Vandegra.

我们在这方面可能有一些共识。

We probably have some alignment on it.

我只是，你知道的，必须继续前进。

I just, you know, I had to move forward.

我和我的孩子、丈夫在一起。

I was with my kid, my husband.

你知道，我们打算去听演讲。

You know, we were gonna go up to hit speakers.

像血与土的民族主义。

Like, blood and soil nationalism.

这在一定程度上取决于是否有真正身处现实世界中的人，而不仅仅是在线上。

It kinda depends on having people kind of not just online, but in the world.

对吧？

Right?

它的本意是那些为自己的国家感到无比自豪的人，而这就是我们的国家。

It's meant to be people that take great pride in their country, and this is our country.

这才是我们归属的地方。

This is where we belong.

但如果你认为这是一种真实、深刻且发自内心的政治理想，它就应该在现实中存在。

But you'd think if that were a genuine, deep, felt political ideology, it would exist in the world.

应该有人走在大地上，血液里流淌着对国家的忠诚。

There'd be people walking around on soil, you know, blood in their veins.

但这其实并不是MAGA的真正含义。

But that's not really what MAGA is.

有些人会参加Turning Point USA的活动，有些人会出席特朗普的集会，但数以百万计的人正在为‘无国王’运动现身。

There are people that'll go to a Turning Point USA event, there are people that'll show up at a Trump rally, but millions and millions of people are showing up for No Kings.

他们离开家，放下手机和电脑，却随身带着手机，离开屏幕，走出家门，与现实中的人们进行真实的互动。

They're leaving their house and their phones and their computers to bring their phones with them, but they're leaving their screens and they're going out and having a real experience with people in the world.

MAGA并没有以同样的方式做到这一点。

MAGA doesn't really do that in the same way.

MAGA是一群盯着屏幕、在社交媒体和电视上消费内容的人组成的运动。

MAGA is a movement of people watching screens and consuming content on social media and on television.

这就是它的本质。

That is what it is.

它是一群在网络上愤怒的人，通过右翼虚假信息和右翼宣传渠道互相煽动，正如我们所见，这足以让人出来投票，但它并不是一群真正踏在土地上、流着真实血液的人的运动，根本不是。

It is people angry online, it is people riling each other up via right wing misinformation and right wing propaganda channels, and that can be enough to get people to show up and vote, as we've seen, but it's not a movement of people with actual blood on the actual soil, it just isn't.

这使得它非常脆弱，最终也极其无力。

And it makes it really brittle, and it makes it really ultimately weak.

我们之前聊过这个，唐纳德·特朗普是个右翼民粹主义者，对吧？

We were talking about this before, Donald Trump is a right wing populist, right?

但它并不受欢迎，他也从未真正拥有过。

But it's not popular, and he's never had.

他并不是一个广泛群众运动的一部分。

He is not the part of a popular front.

他并没有领导数百万感到被法国人虐待的创伤后应激障碍患者，对吧？

He's not leading millions of men with PTSD who feel abused by the French, right?

他们根本就没有那些人。

They just don't have the fucking guys.

这也是为什么共和党的屈服如此可悲，因为他们向这个人投降，仅仅因为他在共和党选民中拥有80%的支持率，但他并没有那种真正能让共和党人对国家感到恐惧的政治运动所应有的力量。

And that's part of what makes the Republican capitulation so pathetic, because they're surrendering to this guy because he's got 80% approval among Republican voters, but he doesn't have the strength that, like, kind of political the political movement that should make them actually afraid, like, for the country.

这根本就不是真的。

Like, it just isn't real.

这全是数字化的。

It's all digital.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你还提到它很脆弱，因为它很肤浅，仅仅因为他随便说些什么。

There's also just this like, you call it brittle and there's a shallowness to it because it's just like it's anything he says.

对吧？

Right?

而且如果你现在看关于伊朗的民调，会发现自称MAGA的共和党人比那些不自称为MAGA的共和党人更支持对伊朗开战，这很奇怪。

And it's like if you look at the polls now about Iran, it's like the MAGA Republicans are more supportive of the Iran war than the Republicans who don't define themselves as MAGA Republicans, which is strange.

你本以为会是相反的情况。

You would think it'd be the opposite.

对吧？

Right?

你本以为会是《华尔街日报》派的共和党人或者类似群体最热衷于战争，但实际上，MAGA共和党人却愿意无条件支持任何主张。

You would think that it would be the Wall Street Journal Republicans or whatever that are the most into the war, but it's the MAGA Republicans are willing to go along with whatever.

这已经变成一种生活方式品牌了。

It's a lifestyle brand.

对吧？

Right?

而生活方式品牌和那种‘血与土’的传统是不同的。

And a lifestyle brand is different than kind of a blood and soil tradition.

而且，我觉得两者各有优缺点。

And, like, there is I guess both have their strengths and weaknesses.

但就政治运动而言，你知道，如果你看看欧尔班，但愿他下周或两周后会输掉选举。

But as far as political movements are concerned but, like, you know, if you look at Orban and, god willing, he's gonna lose here next week or in two weeks.

我们将在节目中讨论下周即将举行的这场选举。

We're gonna talk about that election coming up next week on the show.

但这件事确实有其真实的一面。

But, like, there is something real about it.

它很糟糕，但显然不适合我。

Like, it's gross and but it's obviously not for me.

对吧？

Right?

这种匈牙利式的民族主义，你知道，比如我们有这些移民涌入。

This kind of Magyar Hungarian, like, you know, oh, we have these immigrants who are coming in.

他们不认同我们的价值观。

They don't share our values.

世界主义。

Cosmopolitan.

他们试图让布达佩斯变得和巴黎一样。

They're trying to make Budapest the same as Paris.

而且，我们并不想要那样。

And, like, we don't want that.

这确实是一个真实的抱怨，对吧？不管你是否认同这个抱怨的价值。

Like, they're like, that's a real complaint, right, whether or not you, you know, put any value in that complaint.

而这正是支撑全球其他右翼民族主义者的核心，比如印度的莫迪等等。

And, like, that is what undergirds a lot of the other right wing nationalists around the world, Modi and India, etcetera.

无论如何，你提到这一点让我很感兴趣，因为我不确定。

Anyway, I was interested that you said that because I was like, I I don't know.

你可以看到他们在这里试图这么做，比如在网上那种所谓的‘美国传统’东西，但美国好的部分确实让这变得稍微困难一些。

You can see them trying to do that here with, like, the heritage American shit that you sometimes see online, but it does feel like the good parts of America do make that a little more challenging.

我的意思是，还没困难到让他无法连任两次，但确实让这种局面难以持续。

I mean, not so challenging that he hasn't won twice, but about making it sustainable.

是的

Yeah.

我们不饿。

We're not hungry.

我喜欢。

I like it.

有些人说，嘿，唐纳德·特朗普想把美国变成一个饥饿的地方。

There's like people like, oh, know, Donald Trump is trying to turn America into hungry.

你知道吗？

It's like, well, you know what?

如果匈牙利到处都是该死的美国人，想把它变成匈牙利反而会更难。

I think it'd be harder to turn Hungary into Hungary if it were filled with fucking Americans.

有点缺乏那种‘我们是美国’的意识。

A little bit of a lack of like, hey, we're America.

首先，我们是个庞大且充满分歧的地方，有着多层次的政府。

First of all, we're a big, fractious place with multiple levels of government.

我们是一群叛逆且热爱自由的人，不喜欢被人指手画脚，无论好坏。

We are a rebellious and freedom loving people, and we don't like being told what to do for good and for ill.

这就是我们的本性，我们经常谈论极权政府带来的怨愤部分，对吧？

That's who we are, and we talk a lot about the grievance part of what a fascistic government offers, right?

你可以指向正确的敌人，煽动人们对抗他人，这方面我们谈得很多。

You can point at the right enemies, you can galvanize people to turn against the other, we talk about that a lot.

但还有另一方面，那就是意义和目标。

But there's another part of it, is meaning and purpose.

只有当社会中真正存在意义和目标的真空时，这种情况才会发生，而我认为我们确实正处于这种状态，这是一种人们普遍感受到的情绪。

This only can happen if there's a real gap of meaning and purpose in a society, and I do think that we are in that, that is a feeling people have.

如果你去和人们聊聊，就能看到这种现象——无论是谈论孤独，还是人们彼此疏离、社区缺失，人们不再去教堂，转而沉迷星座占卜，诸如此类。

If you talk to people, there is, you can see it in whatever, want to talk about loneliness, you talk about the ways in people feel like kind of disconnected from each other, the lack of community, people stop going to churches and started doing horoscopes, whatever.

但特朗普对此并没有答案。

But Trump doesn't have an answer for that.

特朗普无法就任何一种

Trump can't speak to doesn't have any kind of

图书馆里的语言就是答案。

language at library is the answer.

这是一个巨大的

It's a big

一座刻着他名字的阴茎塔。

penis tower with his name on it.

这就是答案。

Like, that's the answer.

你可以注册我的生活方式品牌。

It's like, you can sign up to my lifestyle brand.

是的。

Mhmm.

如果你想，可以穿这件衬衫，戴这顶帽子。

Can wear the shirt if you want, the hat.

这并不会奏效，对大多数人来说根本行不通。

And that's gonna and that is just not it's not gonna work for most people, it just isn't.

所以并没有数百万人报名穿上制服，走上街头，成为特朗普党的自豪成员。

And so he's not there aren't millions of people signing up to to put on a uniform and walk around the streets being a proud member of the Trump party.

这根本不是正在发生的事，因为他并没有为他们提供任何东西。

It just isn't what's happening, because he's not offering them anything.

他没有提供任何东西，这笔交易中没有任何积极的部分。

He's not offering them there's no there's no positive part of the bargain.

他甚至连承诺为支持者做的事都没做，尽管他们并不喜欢他。

He's not even doing the shit he said he would do for the people that voted for him even though they don't like

他。

him.

这就像一种粉丝文化。

It's like a stan culture thing.

我需要一篇《纽约杂志》关于这个的文章。

I need a New York Magazine article on this.

你知道的？

You know?

这就像是一种信徒心态，或者你说的什么都行。

It's like being a believer or, you know, whatever.

比利·爱尔兰的粉丝叫什么名字？

What what are Billy Irish's fans called?

你知道的。

You know?

我不太确定，蒂姆。

I'm not sure, Tim.

你也不确定？

You're you're not sure?

我不知道他们叫什么。

I don't know what they're called.

你属于任何粉丝文化吗？

Are you part of any stan culture?

那妮琪·米娜呢？

What about Nicki Minaj?

我真的不是任何那些Bayhive的成员。

I'm really not I'm not part of any of those Bayhive?

不是。

No.

就是这样。

That's what it is.

我偶尔会遭到K Hive的猛烈攻击。

I've been I've been occasionally under a withering attack from the k hive.

但从没像那样过。

Just never like that.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

你激怒了K Hive。

You've you've raised the ire of the k hive.

不过有时候，他们会脱下制服，分散到平民人群中。

Once in a while, though, they took off their uniforms and distributed themselves amongst the civilian population.

The Barbz就是Nicki Noem。

The Barbz is the Nicki Noem.

哦，对。

Oh, right.

The Barbz。

The Barbz.

我还是不知道Billie Eilish那个团体叫什么。

I still don't know what the Bill Billie Eilish group is called.

我们可不想因为这个事儿跟K hive闹翻。

We're not gonna I do not wanna die or the K hive on this.

不。

No.

所以我们换个话题。

So we're gonna move on.

咱们来聊聊花样滑冰的打分吧。

Let's do a little dem figure skating judging.

你总是这样，所以我们得加上洛维特的保留意见：说民主党是我们这个世界里唯一有能动性的群体，这不公平。

You are always you know, so we'll just caveat with the Lovett caveat about it is unfair that, you know, Democrats are, like, the only group with agency in our world.

所以让人沮丧的是，你老是挑民主党的毛病，而与此同时，林赛·格雷厄姆却发动了对伊朗的战争，然后说：嘿。

And so it's frustrating that, you know, you nitpick the Democrats while meanwhile, Lindsey Graham, like, started a war with Iran and then said, hey.

我要去迪士尼乐园。

I'm going to Disneyland.

我要挥动我的小美人鱼泡泡魔杖。

I'm gonna I'm gonna wave my little mermaid bubble wand.

我要到处走走。

I'm gonna walk around.

我要让角色们在我的书上签名。

I'm gonna have the characters sign my book.

他找到了地球上唯一一个法国人见到他都开心的地方。

He found the only place on Earth where the French are happy to see him.

排队和伍迪合影。

Wait in line for a picture with Woody.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

你知道的。

You know?

见见一些邪恶的女王。

Meet some of the evil queens.

没错。

That's right.

不管怎样，这就是林赛要做的事。

Anyway, so that's like what Lindsey's gonna do.

没有能动性。

No agency.

我们可以嘲笑他。

We can mock him.

我们可以批评他，但从来没人期待共和党人会做正确的事。

We can criticize him, but there was no expectations that Republicans would ever do the right thing.

但民主党人，你知道的，不幸的是确实负有责任。

The Democrats, though, you know, unfortunately, do have responsibilities.

我很想知道，在国土安全部停摆和战争期间，什么是正确的做法。

And I'm curious what the right thing to do is both across as DHS shut down in the war.

我昨天跟比尔·克里斯坦聊过这个，但你作为一个立场坚定的民主党人

I was talking to Bill Crystal about this yesterday, but you being a Democrat in good standing

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且是个终身民主党人，我觉得你的智慧可能更适合应对这种情况。

And, you know, lifelong Democrat, think, is your wisdom is probably better suited for this.

但我真的不知道。

But I I don't know.

我感觉我想要更多，我不确定这是源于我个人的需求层次，还是政治策略。

I feel like I want more, and I don't know if this is about my hierarchy of needs personally or whether this is political strategy.

但他们难道不应该就这场战争举行一些虚假的听证会吗？

But shouldn't they be having fake hearings about the war?

他们难道不应该把自己锁在白宫围栏上吗？

Shouldn't they be, you know, chaining themselves to the White House fence?

难道机场外面不应该有人大声抗议吗？

Shouldn't there be screaming people outside of the t outside of the airports?

嗯。

Mhmm.

广告呢？

Advertisements?

我不太清楚。

I don't you know?

有一些人确实满足了我的需求。

And there's some people that are satisfying my needs.

鲁本，女神卡卡表现得非常好。

Ruben, Gaga has been really good.

还有些人甚至根本不出面。

There are others that don't even be out.

但我觉得，面对如此大规模的破坏，人们的反应却显得有些空洞、缺乏力度。

But, like, I have a little bit of feeling of an emptiness and the vigor of the response given the scale of the destruction.

我想知道你怎么看这个问题。

I wonder what you think of that.

你知道吗，我对这件事感到很矛盾。

You know, I'm conflicted about it.

我也有和你一样的感觉，让我来详细说说。

I have the same feeling you do, so let me just play it out.

昨天我们在《Pods of America》这个播客里聊过这个话题，乔恩，你提到过格雷厄姆·林赛。

We talked about this yesterday on on Pods of America, Jon, about how you had Graham Lindsey

格雷厄姆什么？

On Graham what?

节目叫《Pods of America》。

It's called Pods of America.

好的。

Okay.

我会去看看。

I'll check that out.

林赛·格雷厄姆在迪士尼世界坐太空过山车，而TMZ拍到了加利福尼亚州国会议员罗伯特·加西亚在拉斯维加斯，然后罗伯特·加西亚说，是的，我们本该在场投票，但他们让我们回家了。

Lindsey Graham is at Disney World on Space Mountain, and then TMZ caught Congressman Robert Garcia, California, in Las Vegas, and then Robert Garcia said, yeah, we should be in and we should be voting, but they sent us home.

我正在拉斯维加斯探望我父亲，我不会为此道歉。

I'm visiting my father in Las Vegas, and I'm not apologizing for that.

他发了一张照片。

He posted a picture.

我觉得这样处理才是对的。

Thought that's the right way to handle that.

我觉得这样没错。

I think that's right.

但接着你会想，好吧，我理解，你其实无法决定国会何时开会或休会。

But then you think, Okay, I understand that, you're not really in charge of when Congress is in or out.

但如果每个人都因为被遣散而极度愤怒，拒绝离开，那反对派会是什么样子？

But what would an opposition look like if everyone was so incensed by the fact that they were being sent home that they refused to leave?

并不是因为他们特别关注其中的政治因素，而是因为他们对国会成员在未就国土安全部法案进行投票的情况下就被遣散感到愤怒——人们被告知要离开两周，而海岸警卫队的人员却在没有薪酬的情况下工作，同时特朗普还在非法支付运输安全管理局的费用，而这正是最引人注目的新闻，他们本应留在国会，坚持不走。

Not because they were even necessarily that focused on the politics of it, but so outraged by the fact that they were being sent home without having had a vote on DHS, being told that they're going to leave for two weeks while people are working for the Coast Guard without being paid, while Trump is illegally paying TSA because that's what's drawing the most headlines, and just stayed in Congress, stayed there.

是的，举行虚假听证会，站在国会大厦前，步行前往白宫，不管采取什么形式。

Yeah, called fake hearings, stood in front of the Capitol, walked to the White House, whatever it looks like.

我不知道这些策略性做法中哪一种能获得最多的关注，但我觉得你所指的是一种感觉：那种本能的愤怒，它会驱使你无法抗拒地站在台阶上，拒绝返回选区。

And I don't know which of those kind of strategic things are the right thing to do to get the most attention, but I think what you're getting at is this feeling like, where's that instinct, that sort of outrage that drives you inescapably towards standing on the stairs and refusing to go back to your district.

而且，从一开始，民主党对特朗普的回应就存在这个问题。

And and, like, that to me has been a problem with the democratic response to Trump from the beginning.

他们

They're

我觉得他们没有我这么生气。

I don't feel like they're as mad as me.

是的。

Yeah.

也许他们确实很生气，但我感觉他们并没有。

And maybe they are, but I don't feel like they are.

这确实如此，是的。

And that's so yeah.

所以对我来说，这件事有两个方面。

And so to me, that's like there's the two parts of this.

一方面，就像情感需求层次金字塔那样。

One is, like, the emotional, you know, hierarchy of needs pyramid.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但也许这其实并不重要。

And and maybe that doesn't actually matter.

但能觉得你的领导者和你一样愤怒，那会很好。

But it would be nice to think that your leaders are as mad as you are.

那样会很好。

Like, that would be nice.

我认为，当人们相信你反映了他们的愤怒时，这其实是一种有力的政治工具。

And I think that that's a potent political tool, actually, when people believe that that you reflect their upset anger.

但我也觉得这背后还有一种策略，那就是他们现在比以往任何时候都更虚弱。

But then I also think there's just the strategy of this too, which is like, they're as weak as they've ever been right now.

我是说，想踩住他们的脖子，不是字面意思。

Like, I want boot on the neck, not literally.

对吧？

Right?

现在正是主动上劳拉·英格拉汉姆节目邀请自己的好时机。

Like like, this is the moment to invite yourself on Laura Ingram's show.

现在正是进入他们的地盘，指着他们说：看看他们造成的破坏的好时机。

Like, this is the moment to go into their spaces and point at them and be like, look at the destruction they have wrought.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

而且，其他时候民主党人试图这么做时，话题往往是民主、规范这类抽象的东西，而普通人其实并不像我们希望的那样关心这些。

And, like, there are other times Democrats try to do that where, like, the topics are these kind of democracy and, you know, norms that esoteric things that actual people don't care about as much as we wish they would.

但这件事人们真的在乎。

But this shit people care about.

愚蠢的战争、经济衰退、油价上涨。

Dumb wars, recessions, higher gas prices.

人们真的关心这些。

Like, people care about that.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，蒂姆？

You know what, Tim?

你把我吵醒了。

You're waking me up.

你把我吵醒了。

You're waking me up.

我们在这儿干什么？

What are we doing here?

我们走吧。

Let's go.

起来吧。

Let's get up.

我们在做什么？

What are we doing?

我们走吧。

Let's go.

继续吧。

Go on.

继续吧。

Go on.

去他们的空间里。

Go to their spaces.

这周去福克斯新闻吧。

Go on Fox News this week.

汽油价格又涨到5美元以上了。

Gas prices gas prices are over $5 again.

我正在打一场愚蠢的中东战争。

I'm fighting fighting a stupid war in the The Middle East.

他居然在空军一号上用他妈的舞厅示意图来展示。

He's showing diagrams with a fucking ballroom on air force one.

什么？

What?

我们

Let's

走吧。

go.

什么？

What?

什么？

What?

他关注的就是这个？

That's what he's focused on?

皮特·海格塞斯让他的经纪人尝试投资，而那是一家军事公司。

Pete Hegseth had his broker try to invest, and it's a military company.

我能

Can I

他在发动战争之前就当上了战争部长？

He's the secretary of war before he started a war?

我们发动了你所能想象的最愚蠢的战争，而皮特·海格塞斯没有想办法让霍华德确保霍尔木兹海峡畅通，反而在琢磨怎么在自己的嘉信理财账户里赚点小钱。

We started the dumbest fucking war that you could possibly imagine, and Pete Hegseth, rather than coming up with a plan for Howard to keep the Strait Of Hormuz open, is trying to figure out how he can make a few bucks in his Charles Schwab account.

我都不觉得他赚到钱了。

I don't even think he made the money.

我

I

我都不觉得他在这事上赚到任何利润。

don't even think he managed to turn a profit on this thing.

他真的做了这笔投资吗？

Did he even do the investment?

没有。

No.

因为他太蠢了，既管不好战争，也不会贪污。

Because he's too stupid to run the war or to be corrupt.

他比埃里克·特朗普还蠢。

He's stupider than Eric Trump.

埃里克·特朗普至少会正确地贪污。

Eric Trump is at least doing corruption correct.

他正在发财。

He's getting rich.

国防部长比埃里克·特朗普还蠢。

The secretary of war is dumber than Eric Trump.

这真是个问题。

That's a problem.

皮特·埃克塞斯从来就不该变得富有。

Pete Eckeseth was never meant to be rich.

我不认为他能应付得来。

I don't think he can handle it.

我认为他需要一些约束。

I think he needs the constraints.

我觉得他应该起床去上班。

I think he needs to get up and go to a job.

好的。

K.

这就是我对联邦调查局的看法。

That's what I think about the FBI.

鲁保罗式的听证会。

RuPaul style hearing.

你不是赞同这个想法吗？

You don't were you not on board with that idea?

我正在头脑风暴一些点子。

I'm brainstorming ideas.

我很感兴趣。

I'm into it.

我很感兴趣。

I'm into it.

服装，他们还有法槌，还会采访前军事领导人。

Costumes, and they they have the gavel, and they interview former, you know, military leaders.

你知道的，查克·舒默。

You know, the Chuck Schumer

我们只是随便想想。

We're just spitballs.

查克·舒默，汽油价格上涨。

Chuck Schumer, gas prices go up.

在舒默的世界里，某个小警报响了，那是个周日晚上，他拖着脚步去加油站。

Some some little alert goes off in the in the in the Schumerverse, and he and it's a Sunday night, and he trudges down to the gas station.

他站在加油站前面。

He stands in front of the gas station.

他指着价格说，太糟了。

He points at the prices, and he goes, bad.

这太糟糕了，我讨厌这样，而且

This is bad, and I hate this, and

我们会对此采取行动。

we're gonna do something about it.

看看这个数字。

Look at that number.

太糟糕了。

Terrible.

这是宰客。

This is gouging.

他们在宰你。

They're gouging you.

太差了。

Bad.

太差了。

Bad.

太差了。

Bad.

太差了。

Bad.

太差了。

Bad.

舒默去哪儿了？

Where's that Schumer?

那家伙怎么了

What happened to

转过身去。

Turn around.

那件事怎么了？

What happened to that?

戳手指。

Poking finger.

我想戳手指。

I wanna poking the finger.

问题的一部分在于，我们只是说说而已。

Part of the problem is that we just say it.

而且因为我在第一天就这么说了，我不喜欢说‘我早就告诉过你’，因为我经常错。

And I because I was saying it on day one, and I hate to do I told you so because I'm wrong a lot.

但甚至在战争初期，包括查克·舒默在内的太多民主党人都持观望态度，说：‘我们看看吧。’

But there were even too many Democrats up to and including Chuck Schumer that were kind of at the beginning of the war being like, let's see.

我知道。

I know.

也许他们会没事的。

Maybe they'll turn out okay.

我知道。

I know.

他们并不支持。

They weren't for it.

这并不是他们的错。

It's not their fault.

我不是在责怪他们。

I'm not blaming them.

但当时确实有一种想法，就是先看看情况会怎样。

But, like, there was a there was a little bit of a sense of, let's see how this goes.

只有少数例外。

There are few exceptions.

我提到了鲁本，还有克里斯·墨菲、伯尼、AOC。

I mentioned Ruben, you know, Chris Murphy, Bernie, AOC.

确实是有例外的。

Like, there there were exceptions.

但那种氛围有点太过头了。

But, like, there there was a little bit too much of that energy.

我觉得从‘我们先看看情况如何’这种心态转变过来挺难的。

And I think it's kind of hard to transition from the energy of, let's see how this goes.

也许结果会不错。

Maybe it'll turn out okay.

从‘也许会不错’的心态，转变到‘这简直太蠢了’的能量，很难。

Maybe it'll be good to the energy of this is so fucking stupid.

我简直不敢相信。

I can't believe it.

我急得头发都快烧着了。

My hair is on fire.

你能相信这些人居然这么蠢吗？

Can you believe these guys are this stupid?

请把他们投票赶下台。

Please vote them out.

别再让他们掌权了。

Don't let them ever have power again.

你知道的。

You know?

就连在补充拨款问题上，劳伦·博伯特也说：不，绝对不行，绝不给补充拨款。

Even on the even on the supplement even on the supplemental, Lauren Boebert was like, no supplementals, no fucking way.

我们却想把更多钱送去外国打仗，而国内还有很多需求。

We wanna just send more money to the to a foreign war, we have needs at home.

她比许多民主党人说得更清楚，那些民主党人总说：我得看看整个方案，我得接受简报，我得支持我们的军队。

And she said that with more clarity than a lot of Democrats were like, well, I gotta see the package and I gotta see what's I gotta get the briefing and I gotta if I gotta support the troops.

但问题是，当然要支持军队。

And it's like, yeah, of course support the troops.

支持军队的方式就是给唐纳德·特朗普套上狗链。

Support the troops by putting a fucking leash on Donald Trump.

对。

Yeah.

把BB给他戴的 leash 摘下来，换上你儿子的。

Take off the leash that BB has on him and put on one your one of son.

这简直就像，是的。

That's just like Yeah.

它可以是个胸背带，这样他能自由蹦跳，又不用担心，你给他戴上胸背带就行。

It could be a harness so that it that that that that he can jump around without having to worry about know, you give him the harness.

我不希望它那种让人感觉被束缚的紧束感。

I don't wanna you know, it doesn't have kind to of restrictive in a kind of feel.

它只需要能稍微限制住他就行。

Like, it just has to kind of hold him back.

你试过胸背带吗？

You ever tried a harness?

你对胸背带有了解吗？

You know anything about harnesses?

我们现在是在讲克里斯蒂·诺厄姆的部分了吗？

Are we are we at the Kristi Noem section or what?

我们现在说到这儿了。

We are we are at the okay.

在谈到克里斯蒂·诺姆之前，还有两件事。

Two more things before I get to Kristi Noem.

我在节目中对谈论2028年设定了限制，因为我并不喜欢这个话题。

I I have a limit on the show on how much twenty twenty eight I can do because I don't like it.

太早了。

It's too early.

太早了。

Too early.

但这个具体话题恰恰解释了我为什么不喜欢它，所以我觉得提出来是没问题的。

But but this exact topic ties into why I don't like it, which is why I feel okay bringing it up.

我觉得现在提出来是符合我原则的。

And I feel like it's in my integrity to bring it up right now.

这周出了两条关于拉姆·伊曼纽尔的故事。

There were two Ram stories out this week, Ram Emmanuel.

一个是关于他吃沙拉的方式，他吃沙拉的样子就像其他人通常信任的那样。

One about how he eats a salad, and he seems to eat a salad the way everyone else trusts.

是的。

Mhmm.

把沙拉酱倒上去，然后摇晃。

Pours the dressing on and shakes

摇匀。

it up.

把沙拉酱倒上去，然后摇匀。

Pours the dressing on and then he shakes it up.

是的。

Mhmm.

好吧。

Okay.

随便吧。

Whatever.

我明白。

I understand it.

在这个时代当一名人物特写作家很难。

It's tough to be a profile writer in this day and age.

你试图找一个切入点，随便吧。

You're trying to find an angle, whatever.

网上有很多关于这个的讨论。

A lot of posting about that.

我不知道还能再说些什么。

I don't know how much more there's to say about it.

如果你有什么想法，欢迎分享。

If have any thoughts, you're welcome to share.

我知道你现在为了准备婚礼吃了不少沙拉。

I know you're work eating a lot of salads right now to prepare for the wedding.

是的。

Mhmm.

今天早上又有一则新闻发布了。

The other story was out this morning.

这是Axios的独家报道。

It was exclusive by Axios.

嗯。

Mhmm.

Axios的独家报道。

Axios exclusive.

拉姆提出了对移民与海关执法局的资金拨款计划。

Ram rolls out an ICE funding plan.

他打算从移民与海关执法局抽走资金，转而拨给社区学院。

He's gonna take the money from ICE and give it to community colleges.

关键是这样。

And here's the thing.

好吧。

Like, fine.

这是个不错的计划。

That's a fine plan.

我没事。

I'm fine.

这挺好，管它呢。

That's a fine it's a whatever.

比如，如果一个民主党人当了总统并这么做，那也没问题。

Like, if if a democrat became president and did that Fine.

你知道，如果发生这种情况，我不会在播客里专门做一集吐槽这有多蠢，我觉得不会。

You know, I I would not have a segment talking about how stupid that was, I don't think, on this podcast.

这完全是个不错的计划。

It would be a totally a fine plan.

这会是我最青睐的方案吗？

Would it be my favorite one?

但说实话，现在ICE正在美国恐吓人们。

But, like, right now, ICE is terrorizing people in America.

现在，国土安全部因为一场关于该机构资金拨款的实际争斗而停摆，而这个机构对人们的生活有着切实的影响。

Like, now, DHS is shut down because we have an actual fight that is happening over the funding of this organization that has, like, a real impact on people.

我注意到，运输安全管理局的员工都没拿到工资。

I peep the the TSA agents aren't getting paid.

你知道，人们在成年礼庆典外还受到威胁。

You know, people are getting menaced outside of quinceaneras.

这现在就是一场紧迫的斗争。

Like like, this is a acute fight right now.

而像在2026年3月才偷偷泄露白皮书这种2028年才搞的把戏，简直蠢透了。

And, like, doing twenty twenty eight footsy stuff where you're, like, leaking white papers in March 2026 is fucking stupid.

如果你真想在2028年当上总统，而且你是民主党人，我觉得你现在最该做的，就是像我们刚才说的那样，大声斥责唐纳德·特朗普有多糟糕，斥责把我们拖入这种局面的体制有多糟糕。

And if you do wanna be president in 2028 and you're a democrat, I I would think that the best thing for you to do right now would be to do what we're just talking about a minute ago, which is yell and scream about how terrible Donald Trump is and how terrible the the establishment is that has got us into this situation.

是的。

Yes.

或者什么也不做

Or do nothing

或者等等。

or wait.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不希望任何人

Don't want anyone

等待。

to wait.

我不希望任何人等待。

I don't want anyone to wait.

我看看。

I look.

是的，我同意。

I Yeah.

我尊重这一点。

I respect that.

我也不想要任何东西。

I don't want nothing either.

我不想要白皮书。

I don't want white papers.

我不想要那种小玩意儿，比如2026年3月 Politico 的一点小爆料。

I don't want, like, little here's my little Politico scooplet in March 2026.

这让人触发了。

It's triggering.

是的。

Yeah.

这太老派了。

I it's very old school.

对吧？

Right?

你开始在竞选前期做出这些政策声明，试图为你的竞选构建一种智力框架，这感觉就像是来自另一个时代。

You start kind of, like, doing these sort of policy pronouncements in the run up to create a kind of, like, intellectual framework for the kind of campaign you're gonna run, it just feels like it's from another era.