第二季第4集：波兰舞曲

俗话说，并非所有英雄都披着斗篷。我从小就明白，有些英雄身着白色领结与燕尾服——比如钢琴家阿瑟·鲁宾斯坦，他一直是本播客系列中某种英雄式人物。此刻他演奏的是肖邦的降A大调波兰舞曲，恰如其分地被称作《英雄》。这首乐曲凝聚了八十年代动作冒险电影里所有的勇气与战胜逆境的辉煌，甚至更多。

Not all heroes wear capes, the saying goes. As I learned at a young age, some of them wear a white tie and tails. That's pianist Arthur Rubinstein, who's been a hero figure of sorts throughout this podcast series. He's playing Chopin's Polonnese in a flat, fittingly known as the heroic. The peace embodies all the courage and triumph over adversity of an eighties action adventure movie and more.

至少对我而言，肖邦波兰舞曲中那种抽象的英勇精神，点燃了我内心印第安纳·琼斯都未能激发的火焰。当印第安纳能躲过滚石时，弗雷迪（肖邦）在我的想象中能征服一切障碍。肖邦波兰舞曲的爱国情怀无可争议。传记作家艾伦·沃克曾说，肖邦创作降A大调波兰舞曲时

At least for me, there was something about the abstract heroism of Chopin's Polonnese that lit a fire in me like Indiana Jones never could. While Indy could outrun boulders, Freddie could conquer any and all obstacles in my imagination. The patriotic aspect of Chopin's Polonnases is undeniable. Biographer Alan Walker said that Chopin turned his pen into a sword when he composed the a flat Polonnese. And in that famous octave passage at the heart of the piece, Franz Liszt heard the galloping horses of the Polish cavalry on the way to battle.

虽然波兰舞曲的军旅节奏确实让我青少年时期的耳朵为之振奋，但音乐本身从未具体讲述波兰的战争历程，也未曾提及十九世纪四十年代法国与乔治·桑相关联的革命浪潮。这首《英雄波兰舞曲》甚至有过远离其发源地、被赋予异国爱国色彩的演绎——比如俄裔钢琴家弗拉基米尔·霍洛维茨在二战期间为美军基地官兵演奏的版本。它也并非如鲁宾斯坦这般仅限波兰钢琴家诠释。相反，二十至二十一世纪全球钢琴家都争相演绎此曲，其中1965年肖邦国际大赛上阿根廷钢琴家玛尔塔·阿格里希的演奏尤为令人难忘。

And while the military rhythms of the Polonnese certainly were thrilling to my teenage ears, the music itself never told me anything specific about a Polish war effort, nor for that matter the revolutionary stirrings in France during the eighteen forties that George Sand is said to have identified with the piece. The heroic Polonnese even has a history of being recast in patriotic guises far from its country of origin, Like when the Russian emigre pianist, Vladimir Horowitz, played it for troops at American military bases during World War two. Nor has the piece been the exclusive domain of just Polish pianists like Rubenstein. Rather, it's been championed by pianists from around the world during the twentieth and twenty first centuries. One of its most memorable performances was given by the Argentine pianist Martha Argyric at the nineteen sixty five International Chopin Competition.

在2005至2015年间，该赛事连续三届金牌得主（分别来自波兰、俄罗斯和韩国）都不约而同选择了这首波兰舞曲。尽管我不愿削弱波兰对肖邦所有波罗乃兹舞曲应有的荣耀与民族自豪感，但我愿相信在二十一世纪的今天，这音乐中澎湃的激情正诉说着全人类尚未实现的未来憧憬。欢迎收听《肖邦播客》，我是主持人本·劳蒂。

Competition. And it was the chosen Polonnese of three consecutive gold medalists at the same competition between 2005 and 2015, hailing from Poland, Russia, and South Korea respectively. And while I don't wanna take away from the glory and national pride that Poland rightly feels in all of Chopin's Polinazes, I'd like to believe that here in the twenty first century, the exhilaration and emotion of this music speaks to the as yet unrealized aspirations of a universal human future. Welcome to the Chopin podcast. I'm your host, Ben Lottie.

本系列中我们将深入探究弗雷德里克·肖邦的音乐，逐集解析其主要创作体裁。这里是第二季第四期《波罗乃兹》。本期我将前往加里克·奥尔森家中，与他共同探索肖邦的波罗乃兹钢琴作品。随后我们将连线两位肖邦国际大赛获奖者——2021年银奖得主亚历山大·加杰夫与2010年金奖得主尤利安娜·阿芙蒂耶娃，聆听他们点评自己在华沙比赛的波罗乃兹演奏。

And over the course of this series, we'll be diving deep into the music of Frederic Chopin with episodes on each of Chopin's major compositional genres. This is season two episode four, Polynazes. In this episode, I meet Garrick Olsen in his home to explore Chopin's Polynazes at the piano. Then we're joined by a pair of recent medalists from the International Chopin Competition who will react to their own Polonaise performances from Warsaw. Twenty twenty one silver medalist Alexander Gajeev and twenty ten gold medalist Yuliana Avdeyeva.

最后，杰德·迪斯特勒将推荐过去百年间最杰出的波罗乃兹录音。您可在节目发布当日通过播客平台收听完整内容，或关注我的YouTube频道

And finally, Jed Distler recommends some of the greatest Polonnese recordings over the past century. You can listen to full episodes of the Chopin podcast on podcasting platforms the day of release, or watch video segments from each episode in the following days as they're posted to my YouTube channel. Just look up my name, Benlaude. That's b e n l a u d e. This podcast is produced in partnership with the Chopin Foundation of the United States, presenters of the National Chopin Competition in Miami, Florida every five years.

今年一月我荣幸主持了迈阿密大赛的直播，更期待继续与肖邦基金会合作直至今秋华沙国际肖邦大赛。美国肖邦基金会名誉主席正是加里克·奥尔森——他将在整个播客系列中全程陪伴我们。至今他仍是唯一问鼎肖邦大赛冠军的美国钢琴家，而2025年10月，他将成为华沙大赛首位非波兰裔评委会主席。加里克是为数不多录制过肖邦全集的钢琴家，作品由Hyperion厂牌发行。

I was thrilled to host the live streams of the Miami competition this past January, and I'm excited to continue my collaboration with the Chopin Foundation through to the International Chopin Competition held in Warsaw this fall. The honorary chairman of the US Chopin Foundation is none other than Gerrick Olsen, who will be with us every step of the way during this podcast series. To this day, Gerrick is the only pianist from The United States ever to win first prize at the International Chopin Competition. And in October 2025, he will become the first ever non poll to chair the competition in Warsaw. Garrick is one of the few pianists ever to record Chopin's complete works published by the Hyperion label.

该系列中听到的许多录音都取自那套专辑。完整循环的数字下载版可在Hyperion网站上购买。在与Garik进行了十多次关于肖邦播客的虚拟访谈后，我很高兴能面对面与他交流专业话题（请原谅这个双关语），并探讨我们对波利尼西亚的共同热情。

Many of the recordings heard during the series are taken from that set. Digital downloads of the complete cycle are available for purchase on Hyperion's website. And now after having conducted over a dozen virtual interviews with Garik for the Chopin podcast, I was happy to meet him face to face to talk shop, excuse the pun, and explore our mutual passion for the Polyneses.

我一直认为这是世界上最光荣的爱国作品之一，因为它毫无恶意。不像那种'我们赢了，我们征服了他们'的狭隘情绪——嗯。要知道在波兰历史上几乎从未发生过这种事。是的。但这首曲子是如此温暖动人。

I always think this is one of the most gloriously patriotic pieces in the world because it's not mean spirited. It's not like we won, we are, you know, we conquered them Mhmm. Which of course in Polish history has virtually never happened. Yeah. But it's it's such a warm, lovable piece.

我是说，那个主题本身。它滑入小调又转入大调，具有如此强烈的情感波动，旋律美得令人心碎。可悲的是，我听过的每场鲁宾斯坦独奏会，若不是压轴曲目，就是返场曲。五十年代我成长时期，这是人们最常演奏的流行曲调之一，他们用简化版本演奏——你知道的，不管那些简化版怎么处理。

I mean, that that theme itself. It slips to minor and then goes into major. It has such an emotional volatility, and it's so beautiful lyrically. Tragically, every Rubenstein recital I heard, if it wasn't the ending piece on the program, it was an encore. And when I was growing up in the fifties, it was one of the most pop tunes that people played, and they played it in simplified versions, you know, or however those simplified versions went.

当我还是个8岁到15岁之间的年轻钢琴手时，除了《忧郁宝贝》，最常被要求的曲目就是'弹波洛奈兹'。嗯。因为它不是正统的肖邦波洛奈兹，人们会说'弹波利塔德'。这是肖邦最伟大的引子之一。

And as I was a young pianist growing up between the ages of eight and maybe 15, aside from melancholy baby, one of the most frequent requests was play Polinaze. Mhmm. Because it had it wasn't Dodd Chopin Polinaze. It was play Politades. It's one of Chopin's greatest introductions.

当然，肖邦从不在任何方面重复自己。他再没写过类似的作品。

Of course, Chopin never repeats himself in any way. He never wrote anything else like this.

那个开头部分——并不简单。我的意思是，就像你终于抵达主题后才能松口气那样。第一页就极具挑战性。

How does that beginning it's it's not an easy opening. I mean, it's almost like once you get to the theme, finally, you can rest in a The very first page is very challenging.

极具挑战性。当然，钢琴家首先要解决的是如何演奏四度音程——你的指法是什么？如何衔接这些音符才能不假思索地流畅演奏？因为你知道，最忌讳的就是...

Very challenging. Well, of course, the first thing the pianist has to do is figure out how to play. What's your fingering for fourths? And how are you gonna get and how to connect those so that you can actually play them without thinking about them. Because, you know, what you don't wanna do is that.

这必须是一个自信的手势。所以，当然这意味着你需要大量练习，但任何技巧都需要反复锤炼。这个动作会重复两遍、三遍、四遍，然后左手会升高八度再现。最终它稳稳落在主音上，从这美妙的旋律漩涡中诞生了主题。如果我没记错的话，在鲁宾斯坦的安可曲中，观众常常会在此处鼓掌——这首曲子本就是为引爆全场而作的。

It has to be a confident gesture. So, of course, that means you have to practice it a lot, but you have to practice everything a lot. And this happens twice, three times, four times, and then it happens in the left hand an octave. And then it finally settles on the dominant, and out of out of this beautiful swirl grows the melody. And that's if I'm not mistaken, at Rubenstein's Encores, often there would be applause at that We pop well, it was such a pop piece.

是啊。确实。

Yeah. Yeah.

要知道，所有人都为之疯狂。等到他们听到那个段落时——就像意大利歌剧的黄金年代，当咏叹调即将爆发前，观众就会提前报以雷鸣般的掌声。

You know, mean, everybody was thrilled with it. And then when they got to the you know, it's it's like it's like maybe Italian opera was at one point when, you know, when you sing the big the big show stopping, everybody applause just before it even starts.

我猜肖邦在第一页安排八度音阶练习是有深意的，因为后半部分确实需要这个技巧。

I guess Chopin has you warm up your octaves there on the first page because later, you're gonna need them.

其实只要弹完前半部分，手指就已经活动开了。整首曲子堪称令人窒息的高难度作品。没错，这正是我们追求的境界。哇哦。

Well, if if you've played the first half of the piece, you're warmed up. It's it's a blisteringly heavy difficult piece altogether. Yeah. That's where we wanna be. Whoo.

太震撼了。说到底我还是该多练琴的。

It's thrilling. Anyway, I should have practiced more.

不。该说是我没练够才对。辉煌至极啊。不过我注意到，虽然能感受到它的存在，但我们始终没看到明确的...

No. It's I didn't practice more. Glorious. And the one thing I'm noticing is, although I feel like it's there, we never really see a straightforward.

哪个

Which

是典型传粉者的节奏。是什么让它至今仍像个传粉者？听起来确实像个传粉者。

is the characteristic pollinator's rhythm. What makes this a pollinator so far? It sure sounds like a pollinator.

确实如此。如果把传粉者的节奏真正融入旋律中

It certainly does. Well, if you actually put a pollinator's rhythm into the melody

某种程度上，只要你双手交替弹奏，它就在那里。我是说，它确实存在。是的。

Well, in a way, is there if you just go between the hands. I mean, the it's it is there. Yeah.

但我觉得这在布置弱拍强音时非常重要，因为有时你根本不会有'吧吧嘣'的节奏。我认为这与你的乐句处理方式有关，比如那个小小的降A音。虽然那是和声节奏。嗯。但关于这点你是对的。

But I think this is very important in placing pawn aces because sometimes you won't have a ba ba bum at all. But I think it has to do with how you phrase it like the little a flat. Although that's the harmonic rhythm. Mhmm. But you're right about this.

它就在那里。波尔卡舞曲是

It's it's in there. Porn is is

一种三拍子的宫廷舞。它庄重但不僵硬，带有进行曲的元素，但又不是一二三的军乐进行曲。它并不完全踩在节拍上。虽然节拍很重要——你刚说到波莱罗节奏就自相矛盾了。

a court dance in three four. It's stately, but it's not stiff. And it's it it has march aspects, but it's not a one two three march. It's not on the beat so much. Although the beats are the moment you say something about a Pauline's rhythm, you contradict yourself.

但迪奥中最著名的波利娜节奏是哪个呢？是的，这是个经典问题。我们钢琴家有时容易过度关注第二拍。换句话说，因为第二拍天然带有重音。

But the which is the most famous Pauline's rhythm in the Dior. Yeah. It's a classic thing. The tendency is sometimes to spend too much time as for us pianists on moving toward the second beat. In other words, because the second beat gets a natural accent.

它自然会产生上扬感。但有时并非完全如此，如果你严格按照慢速节拍演奏，我们通过聆听波利奈兹和优秀钢琴家的演绎都知道，节奏并非绝对精确。这正体现了我们记谱体系在节奏表达上的诸多局限。嗯，比如在十六分音符和三十二分音符之间，直到二十世纪前都没有更细分的标记。嗯。

It gets natural lift from it. But sometimes, it's it's not quite that because if you play it literally in time slowly, we all know from listening to Paulinaises and good pianists playing them, there's a it's not quite in time. And this is an one of the many examples of the limitations of our rhythmic notation system. Mhmm. We don't have you know, for example, between a sixteenth note and a thirty second note, we don't have anything else until the twentieth century Mhmm.

直到我们开始微观管理节奏。作为音乐家，我们某种程度上理解这些，因为没人愿意听——你知道——如果每个音符都刻板均等，听起来就不够潇洒或英勇。但存在一个风险。我不说你不该这么做，但把这种节奏处理成机械的'一二三'是有危险的。实际上你需要的是这种感觉。

When we start micromanaging rhythms. And we're musical, and we sort of understand those things because nobody wants to hear I mean, you know, if every note is just sort of equal and and square, it it doesn't sound very dashing or heroic. But there is a danger. I won't say you shouldn't, but there is a danger to approach that rhythm as a one two three. Actually, what you need is kind of this.

所以这几乎像是一种上扬感。它给...它给第一个音些许强调。一位波兰音乐家说过，这几乎像是个三连音，但你不弹第一个音。有很多理解方式。现在我要慢慢弹奏军队波洛奈兹的三声中部。或者更直接些，既然我们讨论波洛奈兹，就弹作品22号的《华丽大波洛奈兹》。

So it's kind of it's it's kind of almost a lift. It it gives a little it gives a little emphasis to one Polish musician said it's almost as if this is a triplet, but you don't play the first audio. There's many ways of thinking of it. So I'll I'll play the military ponnets trio slowly. It's not or perhaps more direct, and since we're talking about Polonaise is the Grand Polonaise opus 22.

嗯。这是关于每小节第二个八分音符的全面研究，包括他写了很多错音。我再放慢弹一次。不是这样。他甚至标明了这些错音记号。

Mhmm. It's a whole study in everything on the second eighth note of the bar, including he writes lots of wrong notes. So once again, I'm going slow. It's not. And he he even writes the acts of theirs.

主题部分结束在一个错音上。什么是错的？对吧？这才是普通作曲家会写的。那么，这样讲清楚了吗？

Part of the theme is on ends on a wrong note. What's wrong? Right? That's what a normal composer would write. So, is this making sense?

非常清楚，这也解释了为何你刚才演奏的英雄波洛奈兹——我在此聆听了它全部辉煌——听起来如此轻盈。虽然是首很沉重的曲子，却莫名带着一种通透感，即便音量极其宏大。

It makes a lot of sense and it's one of the reasons why Your heroic ponies, which I just heard right here in all of its glory, somehow sounded light. Playing very heavy piece, but it has a kind of air in in and around it somehow, even though it was extremely loud.

现在你明白了。不。谢谢。顺便说一句，我给学生们和钢琴家们的建议是：认真对待肖邦。主题部分仅以强音呈现。

Now you no. No. Thank you. In case by the way, my my one advice to students and pianists is take Chopin seriously. The the theme is forte only.

对，第一次时。你不想一开始就倾尽所有

Right. The first time. You don't wanna give it all away after the first

有时候人们会过于激动。当然，确实如此。我们在这里，我觉得它更具抒情性，然后他为你铺垫了情绪。

sometimes people get so excited. Of course, do. Here we are, and it's like, I think it's more lyric and then he gives you the setup.

我认为这样更令人满足。真的每次都是。我从未厌倦过。而你演奏的音阶，我是说，这是另一个炫技的部分。所有人都在期待这首曲子的返场。

Much more satisfying, I think. It's really Every time. I never get sick of it. And the scale you played, I mean, is an another bravura aspect of this. Everyone's watching an encore of this.

你会看到疯狂的双音。你会看到这是

You're seeing crazy double notes. You're seeing Where is

肖邦曾经常去的地方？

Chopin used to go to?

突然，一个音阶出现，我总是用这个例子告诉孩子们，如果你想找一个上行旋律小调音阶，肖邦这里就是范例。它是降B小调，但升高了第六和第七音级。再没有比这更激动人心的音阶了。每次它再现时，第一次之后，每次都会再高一个八度。没错。

Suddenly, a scale and I always use this as, kids, if you wanna find an ascending melodic minor scale, here is your example from Chopin. It's b flat minor, but with the raised sixth and seventh. And there is no more thrilling scale. And every time it comes back after that first time, this molt is another octave more. That's right.

这种规模一旦你双手掌握后，感觉就会变得相当好。你可以直接把它整体向上抛，而且它不会——我是说

And it's the kind of scale once you get it in both hands, you know, it always feels pretty good after that. You can just chunk it all the way up, and it doesn't I mean

你得把这些部分组合起来。所以你得练习用拇指。否则的话，就会

You have to put the chunks together. So you have to practice some thumbs. Otherwise, it's gonna

当你抛掷它时，你的某部分

When you're tossing it off, some part of you

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

潜意识里仍在以分段的方式思考。你还是在——还是在分段处理。

Embedded is still thinking in terms of chunks. You're still you're still chunking it out.

完全同意。我认为大脑非常理解这一点。

Absolutely. I think I think the mind gets that very much.

我们说过这首曲子还没有典型的波隆奈节奏特征，但它马上就要出现了。

We said that there's no characteristic Polonnay's rhythm yet in this piece, but it's about to come right around the corner.

难得有一次，肖邦的作品来到了西班牙，而不仅仅是我的《逆戟鲸》。这就是斗牛士的傲慢，不是吗？抱歉，我一弹这首曲子就太兴奋了。

For once in a while, Chopin goes to Spain and not just my Orca. This is this is It That's the arrogance of a bullfighter, doesn't it? Sorry. I get too excited when I play this piece.

这首曲子中最具视觉冲击力、同时在音乐上也极为突出的部分就是中间段落。我们遇到了肖邦作品中独一无二的固定音型，一个循环的、四音符八度音程，从E音开始。不知何时起，这应该变得容易了。但我记得——至今仍觉得保持手部持续运动很棘手。从身体层面，也就是人类动作的角度谈谈吧，比如，左手长时间做这种奇怪的动作是什么感觉。

One of the most visually interesting, but also obviously in the music too, sections of this piece is the middle part. When we get an ostinato like no other in Chopin, a circling, what, four note octave that I begins in e don't know. At some point, this must become easy. But I remember it'd be I still find it tricky to just keep the hand going. But talk to us about it both from a physical, like human level, like, what a strange thing for my left hand to be doing for a while.

这里发生了什么？实际上，你刚经历了辉煌壮丽的段落，现在骑兵进场了——马蹄声阵阵。这个固执的固定音型不肯停歇，却累积起巨大的张力。

What's happening here? Well, what's happened is you've had this big triumphant wonderful piece, and now you get the cavalry coming in, I And the the horse's hoofs. It's this ostinato, which is stubborn. And it just it won't stop, but it builds up an enormous amount of tension.

开头是这些响亮和弦。像是某种号角声，太激动人心了。然而从某种意义上说，其实什么都没发生。

It begins with these loud chords first. So it's some kind of call It's just so exciting. It's And yet nothing's happening, you know, in a way.

没错，它没有推进感。但随着渐强，突然就爆发式转入下方调性——当然是降D大调。是的。

No. It's not going anywhere. And then as the crescendo grows, suddenly he bursts into the next key down. D sharp major, of course. Yes.

这突然让我想起，这其实是拉威尔《波莱罗》的前身，同样的节奏持续了大概十五分钟？虽然那是杰作，但每当遇到这种重复段落，终究需要找到出口。

This suddenly reminds me this is a precursor of Ravel's Bolero, where you have the same of the bump for about, what, fifteen minutes? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a brilliant piece. Mhmm. But at the end of it, whenever you have a repeated thing like that, eventually you have to get out of it.

嗯。拉威尔的解法是从C大调转入E大调。但这里的手法同样精彩——这种转调实在令人颤栗。任何钢琴家演奏时，在E调中你可以逆时针缠绕手指。

Mhmm. And Ravel gets out of it by switching into e major out of c major. But it's a similar gesture here that this this switch is so thrilling actually. Yeah. And when any pianist plays it, When you play it in e can cling counterclockwise.

而且

And

然后是升D调，它也是顺时针方向的。

then d sharp, it's clockwise too.

对。那大概是四五五四五。

Yeah. And that's probably four five five four five.

你知道，这很有趣。我们认为李斯特确实是开创各种八度技巧的人。然而，那些葬礼式的八度音，我觉得它们简直像是直接从《英雄》中搬来的。

You know, it's it's interesting. We think of Liszt as really the one who pioneered octaves of all types. And yet, those funerai octaves couldn't be I feel like they they're straight out of the heroic

直接照搬，连旋律走向都是。对。这完全是赤裸裸的抄袭。或者说，是直接的致敬。实际上它们更难弹。

direct lift even the way the tune. Yeah. It's it's it's a direct steal. It's a direct tribute. They're actually harder.

我认为《葬礼》，是的，它是献给革命中牺牲者的，但里面充满了肖邦的影子。

I think Funerais, yes, it's a tribute to the the the fallen of the revolution, but it's got so much Chopin in it.

尤其是那首曲子。

Especially that piece.

这不是直接引用，而是一种感觉。甚至葬礼进行曲主题的表述也不像肖邦的葬礼进行曲，但

In the it's not a direct quote, but it's it's a feel. And and even the theme with the funeral march statement doesn't sound like Chopin's funeral march, but

它也是隔壁邻居。

It's a next door neighbor too.

是隔壁邻居。事实上，肖邦和李斯特，如我们所知，有着这种奇怪的爱恨关系，对于两位天才来说这是可以理解的。是的，但李斯特非常、非常、非常深爱肖邦，并且非常了解他的作品。我本会喜欢

It's next door neighbor. And in fact, I mean, Chopin and Liszt, as we know, had this sort of odd love hate relationship, which is understandable for two people of such genius. Yeah. And but Liszt loved Chopin very, very, very deeply and knew his work. Well, I would have loved

听李斯特演奏这个。我确信他演奏得非常出色。李斯特音乐的一个特点就是他构建戏剧性和紧张感的能力。他经常利用减和弦来快速做到这一点。这首曲子通过各种和声手法达到目的，但我想到的是这段蜿蜒催眠的段落，我们正从八度音阶中走出。

to hear Liszt play this. I'm sure he played the heck out of it. And one of the things about Liszt music is just his ability to build drama and tension. He would often utilize, you know, diminished chords to do it pretty quickly. This piece does all kind of harmonic things to get where it wants to, but I'm thinking of this sort of whole windy hypnotic passage on our way out of octaves.

是的，在走出八度音阶的路上，不断旋转、旋转，仿佛玻璃杯正在填满，事物变得越来越令人迷失方向。我想知道你对这整个部分的看法，你知道，将我们带回主题。这是最非凡的

Yeah. On the way out of the octaves, just spinning and spinning, and it just seems like the the glass is filling up and things are getting just more and more disorienting almost. I wonder what you make of this whole section, you know, bringing us back to the main theme. Just one the most extraordinary

方面之一。我那时九岁或十岁，可能不太喜欢它。我想回到海洋。但现在这几乎是我最喜欢的部分，我几乎不想让它结束。

aspects I was this. Nine years old or 10 years old, I probably didn't like it very much. I I wanted back I wanted to get back to the ocean. But now it's almost my favorite part. I almost don't want it to end.

然后他在高音部加入这些有趣的强调，如果你从字面上理解它们，实际上相当美丽，不必再担心旋律。我们已经听过曲调。我曾经认为这在音乐上有些困难，可能难以做到。如果你把它看作一种迷失。

And then he puts these funny accents in the treble, which are actually quite beautiful if you take them literally, and don't worry about the melodic anymore. We've heard the tune. I used to think that was somewhat musical and hard and possible to do. If you think of it as a Yeah. It's sort of a get a getting lost.

你知道吗？

You know?

根据你的理论，持续低音往往与睡眠有关，或者我认为，以类似的方式

If pedal tones, in your theory, have tend to have something to do with either sleeping or, I think, in a similar way

空白状态。某种改变的状态。是的。你知道，当你，当你的眼睛变成那样。对。

Clean state. Kind of Some kind of Altered state. Yeah. You know, when you when your when your eyes go like Yes.

当你不断敲击那个C音时，感觉就像中段战斗结束后，士兵们喝醉了之类的。我不知道发生了什么。

When you keep hitting that c, it almost feels like maybe after after the battle in the middle section, you know, the soldiers got drunk or something. I don't know what happened.

但无论如何，他们消磨掉了。他们某种程度上激发了防御工事。我们又变得英勇了。是的。好吧，总之，那是

But in any case, they waste off the They sort of roused the defense labor. We're we're heroic again. Yep. Well, anyway, that's

这是一部惊人的作品，并以一个精彩的尾声结束。

It's an amazing piece, and it ends with a great coda.

太棒了。正是在这里我们听到了很多波兰舞曲节奏。嗯。我们看到了全面的绽放。你能带我们从

Amazingly. And that's where we get lots of Polonnese rhythms. Mm-mm. We get the full flowering. Could you take us from

最后的扫弦部分，就为我们演奏到结束吧？

the final sweeping scale and just play the the end for us?

有点困难，但我会试试。当然。大概吧。类似这样。

With difficulty, but I'll try. Sure. Probably. Something like that.

好吧。去冲个澡吧。

Alright. Hit the showers.

我想我们会熟悉这首曲子的。

I guess we'll know this piece.

这确实是他最具公众性的作品之一。你曾提到这个幻想作为一件公共作品。我认为这非常

It's really one of his most public pieces. You've talked about the fantasy as a public piece. This is a very think it's

最具公众性。我也这么认为。是的。

the most public. I would I would say so too. Yeah.

没错。它是如此外向。即便是那些内向的时刻，无论怎样，那些你被拉入内心的瞬间，它们依然让你感觉是在分享，而非保守秘密。

Yeah. It's so outward. Even the introverted moments, whatever, these moments when we when you're drawn inside, they still feel like that you're sharing it. It's not a secret.

不，重点不在于你是否独自在房间里哭泣。这一点值得一提。

No. It's not you're not weeping in your room by yourself. It is worth mentioning.

我的意思是，波兰舞曲严格来说并非仅限于波兰音乐。早在18世纪，它们就已经风靡整个欧洲。比如，巴赫的E大调法国组曲中就有一首波兰舞曲。

I mean, the Polesers were not, like, strictly a Polish music. They were already very popular throughout the eighteenth century all around Europe. I mean, J. S. Bach has a Polonnese in his e major French suite.

没错。

That's right.

贝多芬的三重协奏曲里也有一首波兰舞曲。

There's a Polonnese in in Beethoven's triple concerto.

实际上贝多芬还创作过一首波洛奈兹舞曲。而且还有

And there's actually a Beethoven Paulnese too. And there's

一首贝多芬的波洛奈兹。确实如此。

a Beethoven Paulnese. That's right.

这是当时的风尚。我是说，这这...

It's it's a la mode. I mean, it's it's a it

这是一种风格。是的，绝对如此。所以这很有趣。它似乎从一种几乎泛欧的、起源于波兰的舞蹈转变为了

was a style. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's interesting. It seemed like it it went more from being almost a sort of pan European dance that originates in Poland to

就像更多浓缩咖啡。我会点一个，你知道的，随便什么法式可丽饼，可能到处都有供应。但有了肖邦，尤其是在19世纪初的波兰，它获得了一种

It's like it's more more espresso. I'll have a, you know, whatever French crepe, you know, which was probably served everywhere. But with Chopin, and especially in the early nineteenth century in Poland, it acquired kind of a

新的意义和民族象征意义。

new meaning and just national symbolism.

绝对如此。提醒人们肖邦是第一位民族作曲家是件好事。所有其他欧洲民族作曲家都比他稍晚一些。

Absolutely. Good to remind people that Chopin's the first national composer. All the other European national composers come a little bit later than he does.

我们将其视为19世纪后期的现象。

We think of it as a later nineteenth century phenomenon.

民族主义与音乐。是的，正是如此。当然，由于当时波兰在地图上已不存在，肖邦离开了波兰，你知道，他深爱着自己的国家，非常爱国，他成为了我们所知的象征。我是说，我总开那个不太好的玩笑，他可能没打算在39岁去世，再也见不到祖国，这让一切显得如此悲剧。

Nationalism and music. Yeah. Exactly. And, of course, since Poland didn't exist on the map at this point, and Chopin left Poland, you know, and was fiercely loved his country and was very patriotic, He became the kind of the symbol as we know. I mean, I always make the bad joke that he probably didn't intend to die at age 39 and never see his homeland again and and make it that makes it so so tragic.

我是说，这已经够悲剧了。但是，是的，他成为了一个民族象征。在某种程度上，他成为了波兰的精神。然而，

I mean, it's tragic enough. But, yeah, he became a a national symbol. He became the spirit of the of of Poland in a way. And and yet,

以你提到的纽约白原市男孩为例，或像我这样的德克萨斯州圆石城孩子，我们会被这种音乐吸引，仿佛它是我们的本土音乐。即便这些节奏源自波兰，但它的感染力超越了国界——任何受民族启发的音乐都可能让人产生‘身临其境’的共鸣。对吧？比如必须真正在当地长大的人演奏才够味。对此观点我一直深以为然。

a boy from White Plains, New York in your case, or a kid from Round Rock, Texas in my case, we can gravitate towards this music as if it's native to us. There is something that speaks beyond just Poland, even if these rhythms originate one could always make the case with any national inspired music that you kinda had to be it's the you had to be there case. Right. Oh, you have to hear somebody who really grew up there. And I always give credence to that.

我确实认同这个观点。我渴望听到那些将波罗乃兹和马祖卡融入血液的音乐家演奏。但肖邦音乐还有另一重特质：它是属于全人类的。绝对如此。我在其中听到了无数通往其他世界的入口。

I I believe there's truth to that. I I do wanna hear musicians who eat, drink, and breathe pollinators natively and and mizurkas. But there's this other thing about Chopin's music, which is that it is sort of for everyone. Absolutely. I hear many passageways into other ines.

比如第132小节那个随性的转调——升c小调波兰舞曲中段的大调转小调再转大调。当音乐在降D大调段落趋于终止时，那个瞬间就像...正是这些微小动机找到了它们

One one random moment, bar one thirty two. This major minor major in the middle of the c sharp minor Paulines. As things are sort of cadencing in our d flat section, there's a moment just like that. It's these little motifs that find their

的路径，在他的波罗乃兹或其他作品中游走。我在想这是否是19世纪某些波罗乃兹的特征。比如柴可夫斯基《奥涅金》里的波罗乃兹可能也有...好吧

way and crawl around in his Polonnasies a bit or in his other music. Yeah. And I'm wondering if it's not something that's characteristic of certain nineteenth century Polonnasies. Maybe in the Onyegin Polonnasies of Tchaikovsky, there's Okay. So

我现在要切入作品26号了。太美了。这是肖邦仅有的两套包含两首波罗乃兹的出版作品之一，作品26号包含第1首升c小调和第2首降e小调。

I've sort of dug a tunnel to opus 26. Beautiful. Now, this is one of two published opuses of Chopin that have two Paulinaises in them. This is opus 26 numbers one and two. We have c sharp minor, and then we have an e flat minor.

值得一提的是，在肖邦大赛——无论是近期迈阿密的赛事还是华沙的正赛——这套作品都在选曲列表里。第二轮可以选择作品26号，但必须两首都演奏。想象一下！能请您弹奏开篇乐句吗？

And I'll just point out that in the Chopin competition, both the one we had recently in Miami and then, of course, the big one in Warsaw, these are actually on the list. You can choose Opus 26 in the second round. So if you make the second stage when you're allowed to choose a Polonnese, but you have to play them both. Wow. Could you play the opening phrase Yes.

并展示它的特征？那个之后会反复出现的主题乐句。

And show us its characteristics? The the phrase which then is repeated so often.

是的，我要演奏整个开场部分，因为你会听到——哪一个？即便在这部分里，同样的素材也会有响亮和轻柔的版本。先是引子，然后素材大致出现两次，并且重复。

Yeah. I'm gonna play the whole opening because you're gonna get Which one? Even within that, you're gonna get a loud and a soft version of the same material. You have an introduction, then the material comes twice, more or less. And repeats.

没错。这只是因为我年纪渐长，变得爱说教了。但我很喜欢阿尔弗雷德·布伦德尔说过的话，他认为舒伯特晚期奏鸣曲中那些冗长、冗长、冗长的重复更像是邀请而非命令。这话很美也很优雅，但你得思考：这究竟是命令，还是当时惯例的做法？

Yeah. Exactly. This is just because I'm getting, you know, avuncular in my old age. But I loved when Alfred Brendel said that he viewed Schubert's repeats in some of the late Sonata's big, big, long, long, long, long, long ones as invitations rather than commands. I mean, that's very beautiful and very gracious, but I think you have to wonder, is it a command, or is it is it it what was done?

你知道的，是不是因为当时所有人都这么做。

You know, was it that's just the way everyone does it.

某种程度上，音乐史——尤其是十九世纪——就是重复记号逐渐消失的历史。甚至在肖邦的波兰舞曲中，我们也能看到从形式化的重复素材（如作品44号首次出现的重复段落）的演变，不过他并未使用重复记号。

Well, in a way, the history of music, especially in the nineteenth century, is the history of the elimination of repeat signs. Right. And so even in Chopin's Polyneses, we have a journey from formally bound repeated material to, as we'll see in opus 44, for the first time, there is repetition. He doesn't write repeat signs, though.

对。别忘了他在创作作品1号前还写过大约10首波兰舞曲。那些都有相同的重复段落。是的，这完全是一种形式化的处理，就像谐谑曲和小步舞曲一样。

Yes. And let's not forget he wrote maybe more or less 10 other Polyneses before he wrote the opus one. Which do have They all have the same repeats. Yeah. They they just it's it's absolutely a formal thing just like in scherzo's and and min minuets.

信息量已经很大了，因为他已经在做变化。看，这个首次呈现的主题是种循环结构——哒哒咚，吧吧...说到波利尼西亚节奏，我老师伊尔玛·沃尔佩克曾抱怨某位著名钢琴家的演奏，她说那人把那两小节弹得死板精准。

That's a lot of information already because he he's already varying it. Look. In this first presentation theme, which is a kind of circular thing, da da dum, ba ba, talk about Pauline's rhythms. Yeah. I remember my teacher Irma Volpek complaining very much when she heard a famous pianist played it, where she said, he played those two bars absolutely in time.

她说自己讨厌那种处理。她推崇什么？感觉上...我们稍后会谈到机械式演奏。总之，这段主题先以响亮单乐句呈现结束，然后转为带细微雕琢的弱奏，最后理查德将它升高了一个音。

She said, she's she did not like that accord. What did she favor? Felt it as if we'll get to Roboto later, and we'll get to things like that. But anyway, he has it once loud with one phrase, and this is the end of it. Then his piano with little little sculptures, and then Richard going going one note higher.

所以这展示了他在不同情况下会如何变化处理。对吧。所以这并不是说主题永远固定不变。

So it shows you that different ways he would vary things. Right. So it's it wasn't like this is the theme, and it's always this way.

然后当这个类似B段的部分出现时，波洛奈兹节奏虽然消失了，但某种程度它仍潜藏在音乐底层。

And then when this sort of b section comes, we we don't have the Polonnese rhythm anymore, but somehow it's still underneath it all.

但有趣的是，你依然能感受到第二拍的存在。肖邦为什么要这样处理？因为波洛奈兹通常的走向是...

But it's interesting. You can also feel that second beat. What's Chopin doing with why isn't because the polonaise often goes.

这种节奏赋予每首波洛奈兹向那个节拍推进的动力。它总让你产生要离开座椅、动起来的冲动。没错。就像我从不会只是后仰坐着。

It gives every Polonaise that movement to that beat. It always gives you the sense of coming out of your chair, moving. Exactly. Yeah. Like, did I'm never just sitting back.

就是这样。是的。

It's it's done. Yeah.

对。完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly.

它让你离开椅子。真的会让你站起来。这是在追寻某种东西。

It gets you out of your chair. It literally gets you on your feet. It's reaching for something.

他有个小小的梦想。我今天问你时，你为我演奏得非常美妙，我说，本，你没有按照谱面演奏。为什么呢？因为谱面上是这样写的。我是说，怎么可以这么死板。

He has a little dream. And I asked you, you were playing this beautifully for me today, and I said, Ben, you're not playing it as written. Why is that? Because here's how it's written. I mean, how to be stupid about it.

再次强调，我们被八分音符和十六分音符限制得太死了。我是说，你最好永远别用任何弹性速度。好像弹性速度是种罪过似的，其实它非常自然。是吗？我觉得不是。

Once again, we are so limited by the eighth note and the sixteenth notes. I mean, yeah, you better never have any rubato. I mean, as if rubato was naughty, it's very natural. Is it? I think not.

但后来他去看了意大利歌剧。

But then he goes to the opera, the Italian opera.

我正想说，在外围段落我就说过，波洛奈兹总能让你如坐针毡。它们总能让你振奋起来。而在这里，我觉得你可以在强拍上放松享受。

I was gonna say, I said in the outer sections that Polynes has always had you on the edge of your seat. They're always getting you up and going. Here, I do feel like you can relax and luxuriate on that downbeat.

看起来是的。意大利歌手们到了。没错。因为他结束时转到了大调，就像教条一样。

It looks like Yes. The Italian singers have arrived. Yeah. Because he finishes It goes to major like in a doctrine.

几乎像是美国流行独奏的风格。我演奏这首曲子时遇到的一个难题——我觉得在下首波洛奈兹中更明显——就是时间的起伏流动。我们总认为波洛奈兹有严格的节奏，但尤其在降e小调中，渐慢...不，是渐缓。

And almost of like an American kind of popular solo. One of the things I have trouble with when I perform this piece, and I think it's even more prevalent in the next Polonnese, is just the sort of ebb and flow of time. I mean, we think, oh, the Polonnese has a kind of strict rhythm to it, and yet, especially in the e flat minor, ichelorando. No. Ritardando.

渐强。就像在来回拉扯你。这首开头充满忐忑的曲子，你是如何处理乐句的？

Crescendo. It just it's like pulling you back and forth. How do you phrase the opening of this most this piece is filled with trepidation at the beginning?

是的。这首作品非常奇特，我是说，这是肖邦最阴暗的作品之一。它甚至在19世纪被贴上了‘西伯利亚传粉者’这样莫名其妙的标签，我也不清楚原因。或者它也被称为‘反叛’，因为这首曲子带有某种煽动性。

Yeah. This is a very odd I mean, this is one of Chauvin's darkest pieces. It was even it it got a label, I think, the nineteenth century, the Siberian pollinators for some reason. I don't know why. Or it also was called revolt because it is kind of a seditious piece.

我的意思是，这首曲子充满愤怒，而且——你听——它以一个结尾作为开端，这非常不寻常。这是首令人不安的作品。我是说，你听到的那些音符并不悦耳。

I mean, it's it's angry, and it, you know, it starts it starts with an ending, which is really unusual. This is a very upset piece. I mean, you've got That's not pretty stuff. I've heard

升f小调被称为‘悲剧波洛奈兹’。但对我来说这首更悲怆。确实如此。它充满威胁感，它是——

the f sharp minor called the tragic ponies. This for me is the more tragic. I would think so. I mean, it's it's menacing. It's

这很有趣。我们讨论过那位总是非凡又充满争议的约瑟夫·霍夫曼。嗯。正如我向你指出的，对于那些好奇他为何有时如此怪异的人——我们刚一起听了开头部分，你几乎可以照着它誊写肖邦的原谱。除了一个声部处理外，完全就是作曲家写下的音符。

It's interesting. I mean, you and I have discussed the always phenomenal and controversial Josef Hoffman. Mhmm. And yet, as I was pointing out to you, for those who wonder why he's so weird sometimes, we just listened together to the very opening, and you could take dictation for Chopin's notation from it. It's exactly what the man wrote except for one voicing.

在动态变化、触键力度和阿喀琉斯般的跑动段落上，精准得不能再精准了，但不知为何仍充满个性色彩，浸透着恐惧与警示。所以他是个非常有趣的案例——所有伟大演奏家都是如此。同一首作品他有五个版本，每次演绎都有变化。这几乎是整个19世纪的传统，重演相同作品时总要有所创新。

In terms of, you know, the the dynamic, the poker rail, the Achilles run, it was like, you couldn't be more precise, you know, and yet somehow it still sounds characterful and full of dread and alarm and so on. So it's it's he's a very interesting case as how are all great interpreters. There are five versions of same thing, and he he varies at each time. Is a whole nineteenth century tradition that was almost considered what you do when you see the same stuff again. You you do something different.

据说肖邦自己演奏同一首曲子也从不会重复。虽然我们不清楚具体含义。嗯。但问题在于：我们拥有多少自由？又该保持多少克制？我们所处的时代可比约瑟夫·霍夫曼那时保守多了。

You know, and it was even said Chopin never played the a piece the same way twice. We don't know what that means. Mhmm. But the question is, how much freedom do we have and do we not? We live in a a less freedom inclined age than Joseph Hoffman did.

您正在收听的是肖邦降e小调波洛奈兹舞曲作品26第2号，由第十一届肖邦国际大赛波洛奈兹奖得主Karina Tsang演奏。该曲与升c小调作品26第1号配对演出，这些作品与升f小调作品44、英雄式的降A大调作品53，以及《平稳的行板与华丽的大波洛奈兹》作品22共同构成选手们在四分之一决赛的可选曲目。迈阿密赛事引起巨大反响，为期一周的比赛收获超30万次YouTube观看，决赛音乐会门票售罄。我很荣幸代表肖邦基金会主持直播并采访众多才华横溢的选手。祝贺所有获奖者，特别是获得直接晋级今年十月肖邦国际大赛正赛阶段的金奖得主William Yang与银奖得主Anthony Ratinov。

You're listening to a performance of Chopin's e flat minor Polonnese opus 26 number two from the eleventh national Chopin competition given by Karina Tsang, winner of the Polonnese prize. Played as a pair with the c sharp minor opus 26 number one, these are among the Polonnese's contestants could choose from in the quarterfinal round, along with the f sharp minor opus 44, the heroic a flat opus 53, and the Andante Spionato in Grand Polonnese opus 22. The Miami competition was a huge hit, attracting over 300,000 YouTube views during the week long event and selling out the final round concerts. It was my privilege to host the livestreams on behalf the Chopin Foundation and interview the many talented competitors. Congratulations to all of the prize winners and especially to gold medalist William Yang and silver medalist Anthony Ratinov, both of whom earned automatic admission to the live rounds of the International Chopin Competition this October.

今年美国赛事的另外两位参赛者也将加入他们，分别是半决赛选手Victoria Wong和Antony Kletchuk。要重温迈阿密所有选手的表演以及我在那里与他们进行的愉快对话，请确保您订阅了肖邦基金会的YouTube频道。

They'll be joined by two other competitors from The US competition this year, semifinalists Victoria Wong and Antony Kletchuk. To relive all the competitors' performances from Miami as well as fun conversations I had with them there, make sure you're subscribed to the Chopin Foundation YouTube channel.

作品44号几乎以一种低吼开始，但非常安静。1971年在华沙，我赢了。这是我开场演奏的曲目。报纸上给了我非常好的评价，因为当弗兰克鲁普终于遇到一位拥有完整动态范围的钢琴家时。在肖邦最悲剧性的作品中，看看这里所有的红色。

The opus 44 begins with almost a snarl, but very quiet. In Warsaw in 1971, I won. It was the piece I opened with. And I got a very nice review in the paper because when the Frenkrupp finally a pianist with a full dynamic range. In Chopin's most tragic work, look at all this red here.

这不是任何人的血。这是多年前漏墨的记号笔，但我就是——我就是喜欢它。

This is not anybody's blood. This was a Sharpie that leaked many years ago, but I just I just look I love it.

我觉得你没有告诉我们它实际上是什么。这是Garik的《血、汗与泪》，那首曲子。但是，

I think you don't don't let us know what it actually is. This was Garik's Blood, Sweat and Tears, the piece. But,

无论如何，这个主题——我是说，我会试着弹一下这个主题。我们回来了。这是一首好曲子。

in any case, the theme I mean, I'll just try to play the theme. And we're back. This this is a fine piece.

听起来像幻想曲。什么？是的。就像有一个现实世界，然后那个转调就是存在于脑海中的现实。然后这就是想象。是的。

That sounds fantasy to me. What Yeah. It's like there's real world, then that key change is what's in the mind of that's real. And then this is imagine. Yeah.

在这里，肖邦施展了伟大作曲家的技巧，写了一段音阶却让你觉得这是一段美妙的旋律。嗯。就像拉赫玛尼诺夫也很擅长的那种。是的。是的。

Here, Chopin does the great composer trick of writing a scale and making you think it's a great tune. Mhmm. Like, something that Rachmaninoff is very good at too. Yeah. Yeah.

相当美妙。他回归到梦幻般的状态，却给钢琴家出了个极大的挑战——八度音阶。是的，这对肖邦来说也很不寻常。嗯。

It's pretty nice. He goes back to the dreamy state except he gives the pianist one of the biggest challenges which is a scale in octaves. Yeah. Also unusual for Chopin. Mhmm.

肖邦极少写纯粹的八度段落，我可能弹不了那段。差一点。我不会再试了。刚才那次相当接近了。完美搞定。

Chopin writes very few pure octaves and I probably cannot play that. Almost. I won't try it again. That was fairly close. Nailed it.

哦，差不多吧。第三次时，他叠加了音阶——这在肖邦作品中很罕见。换句话说，就是为了增强力度。情绪变得越来越激昂。

Oh, just about. Yeah. The third time, he compounds it with scales, which are rare in Chopin. In other words, just to make it more power. And it's just getting more and more excited.

最后，他突然收尾，做出了他最生硬的转调之一。

And finally, that he just finishes and makes an abrupt transition, one of his roughest transitions.

我们到了。

Here we are.

所以我们是要去某个地方对吧？这是军乐，没错，军乐。你能听到小号声，明白吧。嗯。

So we're going somewhere. Right? This is military, yeah, military music. And you can you can hear the trumpet, you know. Mhmm.

咚。这部分包含两个段落。先渐强，然后渐弱。嗯。但又被梦境般的段落突然打断。

Thump. This section has two sections. It builds and then it gets softer. Mhmm. But it gets interrupted by the dream sequence again.

我又在叙事性地思考了，但军乐部分开始前那种怪异又近乎甜美的节奏，听起来几乎像是在说，让我给你讲个故事。对，正是如此。然后回到我们的军旅岁月——很久很久以前。现在我们之前听过的故事素材中唯一出现过的材料是什么？

Here I am thinking narratively again, but I almost feel like that weird, almost sweet cadence before the military part starts, it almost sounds like, let me tell you a story. Yeah. Exactly. And then back in our military days Once upon a time. Now what's the only material in the storytelling that we've heard before?

就是那个梦境八度音阶序列。没错。也许这次，是它真实发生的时刻。而之前的那些时刻，则是梦境或对它的记忆。我太喜欢这个设定了。

It's that dream octave sequence. Right. Maybe this time, it is the time it actually happened. And the times earlier was that dream or that memory thereof. I love it.

根据艾伦·沃克传记中的记载，作品44号最初是作为波罗乃兹幻想曲构思的。他当时就已经以这些术语来思考它，但后来仅将其命名为波罗乃兹。但关键在于，它本质上是一种波罗乃兹幻想曲。完全正确。如果我们将其视为一种体裁而非单指作品61号，它的确以幻想般的方式突破了形式界限，进入了截然不同的音乐景观——

Turns out the Opus 44, as I read in the Alan Walker biography, was originally conceived as a Polonnese fantasy. He was thinking of it in those terms already, but then only named it Polonnese. But the point is, it is a kind of Polonnese fantasy. Absolutely. If we think of that as a genre and not just the one opus 61, it does break beyond those formal boundaries in a way that's fantasy like and goes into very different landscapes of

除了引子部分，它开始时非常规整。然后通过片段不断重复，突然就出现了这个新元素。是的。这个段落结束后，紧接着是一段玛祖卡。说到梦境般的序列，确实如此。

It starts very formally, except for the introduction. And then it repeats and repeats from pieces, and suddenly it has this other thing. Yeah. And after that section's over, there's a mizurka. Speaking of dream sequence, yeah.

但就像它开始的方式，马祖卡舞曲的节奏，双重运动，这是一个触发点。不是减速，而是那种。大致上。不必完全精确。这不是一个食谱。

But just the way it begins, tempo di mazurka, doppio movemento, which is a trigger. Not the retard, but the. Roughly. It doesn't have to be exactly. It's not a recipe.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且这场屠杀重复了很多次。哦，还有一个问题是，嗯，你如何在这其中处理时间？就是

And this massacre repeats a lot. Oh, it's There's also a question of, well, how do you deal with time inside of this? Just And

许多钢琴家，尤其是缺乏经验的年轻演奏者，一上来就急于弹奏这段旋律。它重复了四次，而肖邦的指示基本上是要求渐强。该如何

and some so many of pianists, especially younger ones without experience, wanna play the tune when they get in. It repeats four times, and Chopin says to get bigger, basically. How do

在这种情况中把握节奏

you pace yourself for this kind

我 我认为它第一次存在于想象中。我觉得这是

of I I think I think it exists in the imagination the first time. I think this is on

就像，几乎是从远处听到的。遥远的地方，它是真实的吗？

Like, heard it from far away almost. Far away, is it real?

我不知道。而且那个'哒哒哒咚，哒哒哒哒哒，哒哒哒哒'的旋律，它也在自我吞噬。就像，这个东西。

I don't know. And also the tunes of da da da dum, da da da da da, da da da da, it's also eating its own tail. Like, this thing.

在肖邦的作品里，你几乎可以说存在两种歌唱。一种是你正在歌唱，另一种是你听见歌声在歌唱。对，这是听见歌声的那种。是的。

Well, this is you can almost say in Chopin, there's two types of singing. There's the kind of singing where you're singing, and then there's the kind of singing where you're hearing the singing. Yeah. This is hearing the singing. Yes.

有别的东西在为你歌唱。

Something else is being sung to you.

是啊。而且它甚至是不是均匀的？

Yeah. And is it is it even?

没错。而且可能只是我们脑海中的想象。对，这听起来像是从远处传来的，在远方。

Yeah. And it could just be up here in our heads. Yeah. This sounds like it's out there. It's in the distance.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为它逐渐靠近是因为第二次出现潜在的渐强时，音高上升了五度。但其中我最喜欢的部分是它的发展过程，变得更具表现力。然后他真的唱了起来。第三次时，他变得更加激动。

I think it comes closer because the second time there's a potential crescendo, it goes up a fifth. And but one of my favorite things in it is that develops. It gets our expressive. Then he really sings. And the third time, he he he gets more excited.

更多的声音加入进来。对我来说，那才是真正的歌唱，令人心碎，我觉得。我就是喜欢...是的，我热爱整首曲子。确实如此。

More voices and then there. For me, that's real singing where you're singing, and it's heartbreaking, I find. And I just love Yeah. I love this whole piece. It's true.

玛祖卡舞曲结束时，你会希望它不要停下。不。

By the end of the Mazurka, you don't want it to stop. No.

起初你会觉得它持续了很久，但到最后，你却...

Exact at first, you think it's going on a long time, then by the end of it, you're

就在你沉浸在那个世界里时，他让这种状态持续得恰到好处，让你几乎忘记自己身处哪首曲子中。然后当他从中抽离时，又让你无法忽视。我想说的是，在迈阿密比赛中听过你的学生奥利弗·摩尔演奏这首曲子，他肯定跟你学过。

just you're just You're in that world. He lets it last just long enough where you almost forget what piece you're in. Then he doesn't let you forget it when he comes out of it. I just wanna say, heard one of your students at the Miami competition, Oliver Moore, play this piece. He'd been studying it with you, I'm sure.

他从狂暴状态中抽离的方式震耳欲聋，但效果极佳。我的意思是，那声音简直铺天盖地。我甚至分不清这是音阶还是琶音，或者两者都不是又或者都是，但重点是他如何将我们从梦境中唤醒。我来试着演示下，其实并不难。

The way he comes out of the Berserker was deafening in a good way. I mean, it was just wall to wall sound. I don't even know if this is a scale or an arpeggio or neither or both, but talk about how he wakes us up from this dream. I mean, I'll try to do it. It's not very difficult.

好的，我们开始吧。

Okay. Let's do it.

开始吧。不过他其实都快睡着了。马戏团被他逗乐了。祝你好运。大概是这样。

Let's do it. But he actually falls asleep almost. The circus done by his happy. Good luck. Something like that.

有趣的是，这几乎不会打扰到

It's interesting that it it almost doesn't disturb the

不，实际发生的是

No. What what happens is the

噪音快点。

noise hurry up.

我是不是听到了什么？那巨大的声响是怎么回事？然后前奏又回来了，接着我们回到了对波琳娜丝的回顾部分。嗯。直到进入尾声，那简直令人心碎至极。这就是

Did I hear something? Was that the what was this tremendous noise happens? And then then the introduction comes back at and then we're back we're back with the with the recap of the Paulinaise Mhmm. Until you get to the coda, which is just incredible, incredibly heartbreaking. This is

我觉得悲剧真正显现的地方。突然间主题沉重地压下来。因为在此之前，当主题重现时，我们感受到的是它多么骄傲且自信。

where I feel like the tragedy really Right. Suddenly to bear on the the subject. Because so far, I mean, when the theme returns, we're reminded how proud and sort of self assured the theme is.

完全未被击败。达科他给人的感觉像是

Quite undefeated. Dakota feels like

是啊。悲剧一直在慢慢侵蚀。

Yeah. The tragedy has been eating away.

没错。而且他确实加大了力度。他采用了这种一、一、二的音型发展，有点像勃拉姆斯的手法。关键在于他从不言明。所以常听人试图解释——这在我看来简直荒谬。

Yes. And he really ramps it up. What happens is he takes this figuration of one, one, two, and he develops that kinda like Brahmsmite. So And the thing is he never says anything. So very often you hear people try well, that's that's actually to me ludicrous.

对。对。对。所以我认为这是个绝佳修辞案例。低音提琴手现在都加装了低音C弦，就是为了追求更深沉的音色。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think I think this is a case for great rhetoric there. And I think the low the the as the double bass players do now, they all have that extra c the string down to c just for depth of sound.

我觉得效果不错。

I think it works. Okay.

这里又出现了一个统一性元素，因为我们之前有过这些颤音、滑奏的段落。是的。这几乎就像大提琴二声部。而在大提琴二声部中，我们有这段悠长的旋律。对。

Here's another point of unity because we had these trilly, scoopy things before. Yes. This is almost like the cello two. And the cello a two, we have what this long Yeah.

而且我们在这首曲子里已经出现过这些颤音。

And we've had these trills in this piece.

接下来的和弦如此悲怆。

The next chords are so tragic.

对我来说，这才是真正触动心弦的时刻——无论你如何用吉他调音器处理它（我记不清了）。但我的意思是，这个惊人的高潮简直令人歇斯底里，几乎让人难以承受。

For me This is when it really gets it's like However you treat it with guitar tuna. I don't remember. But, I mean, for me, this this incredible climax, which is hysterical. I mean, that's just almost unbearable.

这确实是首震撼人心的作品。

It's truly a shocking piece.

是啊。这这这...这实在是悲剧性的，当然也由此映射出波兰历史的缩影——你知道的，被摧毁、被征服、不仅从未站在胜利者一方，更因地理政治和历史原因而无力自卫。是的，他们真的...

Yeah. It's it's it's it's truly tragic, and of course, in that way mirrors so much of Polish history, which is, you know, getting wiped out, getting conquered, getting you know, not being on the not only not being on the winning side, simply not able to defend yourself because of geographical and political and historical reasons. Yeah. They really

命运对他们极端不公。这首曲子完美体现了这点。本期节目由美国肖邦基金会赞助播出。该基金会由布兰卡·罗森斯蒂尔女士创立，她少女时期曾经历德国占领波兰的岁月，那时纳粹禁止演奏肖邦音乐。布兰卡女士后来移居美国，并于1977年创立美国肖邦基金会，近半个世纪来始终致力于推广肖邦音乐，并助力无数美国青年钢琴家开启职业生涯，包括2025年最新一届肖邦国际钢琴比赛金奖得主威廉·杨和银奖得主安东尼·拉蒂诺夫，他们都将代表美国参加今年秋季在华沙举行的肖邦国际钢琴大赛。

it's the cards are sacked against them and Terribly. This piece embodies that. This episode is brought to you by the Chopin Foundation of the United States, founded by Lady Blanca Rosenstiel, who lived through the German occupation of Poland as a young girl, during which time the Nazis banned Chopin's music from being played. Lady Blanca would later move to America where in 1977, she established the Chopin Foundation of the United States, which has championed the music of Chopin and helped to launch the careers of countless young American pianists for nearly a half century. That includes most recently twenty twenty five National Chopin Competition gold medalist William Yang and silver medalist Anthony Ratinov, who are among the Americans competing in the International Chopin Competition this fall in Warsaw.

顺便说一句，二战期间纳粹几乎无法在波兰压制肖邦的音乐。事实上，波兰电台每天都会播放他所谓的《军队波兰舞曲》，作为对占领的抗议和捍卫民族身份的象征。波兰和肖邦都幸存下来，他的音乐不仅在祖国，而且在全世界直至二十一世纪都备受赞誉。如需支持美国肖邦基金会，请访问chopin.org/donate。作品四十号有军队所谓的军队节日。

By the way, the Nazis hardly silenced Chopin in Poland during World War two. Indeed, Polish radio would broadcast his so called military polonaise every day as a symbol of protest against the occupation and defense of national identity. Poland and Chopin both survived, and his music is celebrated not only in his homeland, but around the world well into the twenty first century. To support the Chopin Foundation of the United States, visit chopin.org/donate. Opus forty has the military The so called military holidays.

这首升f小调的作品与基辅相关，它分享了那种

It's in the relative Kyiv, this f sharp minor one, and, you know, it shares that

并且毫无悲剧色彩。我当时

And has nothing tragic about it. I was

想说，它确实具有更广泛的军事特质，但完全没有绝望和悲剧的成分。

gonna say, it's it shares the mill the broader military quality, but it doesn't have any of the despair and and tragedy.

我年轻时认为这是仅次于英雄波兰舞曲的第二受欢迎的作品。是的。但这首曲子非常受欢迎，它很美妙。我总觉得它有点亨德尔式的风格，你知道的，鼓声和号角声，那种令人惊叹的骄傲声响。汉塞尔

I would say when I was a young Guinness, this was the second most popular poll in after the the heroics. Yeah. But this is Very popular piece, and it's a wonderful piece. I always think of it as kind of Handelian, sort of, you know, drums and trumpets and, you know, this that kind of marvelous proud noise. Hansel

能为我们演奏一段吗？

would make Play some of it for us.

就就我想听听。是的。哦，太棒了。简直太棒了。

Just just I wanna hear it. Yeah. So, oh, it's great. It's simply great.

这很难。真的很难。是的，非常困难。

And it's hard. It's hard. Yeah. It's very hard.

现在我们遇到个非常奇怪的东西。这不有趣吗？那是不是某种小军鼓

Now we have something very strange. Isn't that interesting? Is that some kind of snare drum

我是说，这是军国主义风格。简直就是苏萨进行曲，明白吗？没错。现在有乐队在演奏，还有烟花

I mean, it's Militarism. It's practically Sousa, you know. Exactly. There's a band playing right now and there's fireworks

绝对不私密。绝对是拒绝的。

is definitely not intimate. It's definitely No.

我们说过《英雄小马》是最公开的作品。也许是这首，因为它形式上太明显了——这是户外音乐。如果这是美国作品，肯定会在7月4日演奏。懂吗？

We said the heroic ponies was the most public piece. Maybe it's this one because this was so formally, clearly a This is outdoors. If this were an American piece, it would be played on the July 4. You know?

我几乎爱上苏萨风格了。没错。就是这样。

I love almost Sousa. Yeah. It is.

是啊。这曲子多欢快。它还有姊妹篇。作品号

Yeah. It's such a fun piece. It has a partner. The opus

它有

It has

一个惊艳的第二部分。这是肖邦

an amazing part two. Which is one

最不为人知的波兰舞曲或作品之一，低沉、悲怆而阴郁。当然，也充满力量，但与前者截然不同。低音部有一条旋律线，正如他在大提琴练习曲等作品中惯用的手法，但这里是以八度呈现。有趣的是，这次仅有两小节引子，简单铺垫后就直接进入主题。

of the least known polonaises or pieces of Chopin, and it is is down and tragic and gloomy. And, I mean, powerful too, but it could it couldn't be more different. And it has a melody in the bass, which as we know he does in the cello etude and stuff, but it's in octaves. And it's interesting that this is one time. There's a two bar introduction which just vamped already, you know.

这不太像舒伯特的手笔。确实不像。而当你第二次演奏这个主题时，按他的指示应该用强音处理。

That's not very much like Schumpeter. No. And then And then the second time you spoke play that theme, you're supposed to play it loud. If that's what he says.

如果说某作品是悲情波兰舞曲，这首就是病态波兰舞曲。我不

Well, if Opus sort of were the tragic Polonnese, this is the morbid Polonnese. I don't

知道。完全同意。完全同意。

know. Absolutely. Absolutely.

仿佛他自问：怎样才能写出与第一首截然不同的作品？

It's like he he thought to himself, how can I write as different a piece as possible from the from the first one?

是的。然后他在A段的第二部分摆脱了那种病态感。我是说，它又变得军事化了，但也像这段一样有迷失方向的危险。让我放给你听。这是首绝妙的曲子，而其中的三重奏部分的和声非常怪异。

Yep. And then he breaks out of the morbidity in the second section of the a section. I mean, it gets militaristic again, but it also then threatens to get lost in the way that this does. Let me just play it. It's a wonderful piece, and the and the trio of it is is bizarre harmonies.

这就是为什么我会说这首曲子从来不是为观众而作的。如果你为观众演奏这首曲子，他们根本不知道发生了什么。就像，哦，还不错。

This is what I would call this piece is never an audience piece. You play this piece for an audience, they don't know what hit them. It's like, oh, that was nice.

那么你该如何编排它呢？我是说，它是为谁而作的？我不太明白...但它确实不是为观众准备的。

So then how do you program it? I mean, who's it for? I don't well But it's not for an audience.

不。它不适合。但如果你把它放在其他肖邦作品的语境中，它就是首很好的观众曲目。然后，你知道，它会显得——哦，多美啊。我是说，这个三重奏部分。

No. It makes no. It's a good audience piece if you put it in the context of other Chopin pieces. And then it, you know, it's oh, it's it's beautiful. The second I mean, this this trio.

带着那些幽灵般梦幻的小鬼魂...你知道，复调...我是说，这又一次像是某种叙事或梦境序列，或者说故事。

With those little sort of ghostly dream little ghost as you know, poly mean, it's it's once again, it's it's some kind of narrative or dream sequence or storytelling.

这让我意识到，就像我们之前争论的那首新发现的圆舞曲是否真的属于肖邦。里面有些元素在其他肖邦作品里找不到。而这首曲子里有些瞬间，在任何肖邦作品里都找不到。几乎每首曲子都有不那么'肖邦'的东西，然而，我也说不清...

It makes me realize, like, you know, we were all debating is that new waltz that was found. It really belonged to Chopin. There's things in it that we can't find in other Chopin pieces. There's p there's moments in this that we can't find in any Chopin piece. Almost every piece has something not Chopin esque, and yet, I don't know.

我觉得其中有种魔力总能追溯到他身上，尽管每首作品都有独特元素。而这首包含的音乐听起来完全不像他写的任何作品。我知道。它真的...真的走得很远，像在穆兰冒险。

I feel like there's a magic in there that we can always trace back to him, even though there's unique elements in every And this has music that doesn't sound like anything he wrote. I know. It's it's really it really goes out on Moulin.

是的，非常明显。

Yeah. Very much so.

《节日幻想曲》作品61号，2010年时这首曲子是必选曲目，但在较早的轮次，所以有更多参赛者演奏过它。现在放在决赛轮次很稳妥。这首曲子你确实很难听到两次完全相同的演绎。不，因为处理速度、声部、重点乃至整首曲子的走向都有太多可能性。

The Holidays Fantasy Opus 61, in 2010, this piece was required, but in an earlier round, so people many more contestants played it. Now it's safe for the final round. And it's truly a piece where you don't hear it really played the same way twice. Nope. It's just there's too many ways to approach tempo and voicing and emphasis and really the the direction of the whole piece.

你是否觉得开头有种'很久很久以前'的感觉？

Do you feel the beginning is a kind of once upon a time?

我想是的。对，我认为这是一种叙事手法。

I think so. Yeah. I think it it's a storytelling.

没错。从降A到降C这样的过渡，已经让人感觉充满回忆色彩。

Yeah. It feels already reflective. Just moving from a flat to c flat like that.

如果你想转到中心调性的话，也可以是B大调

Or b major if you want to go to center of

这首曲子的核心部分。

the piece.

它给你一丝其他东西的暗示，但你完全不知其为何物。接着是更多的幻想元素，然后那段素材又以机密形式重现。肖邦就这样悄然呈现了他的首个主旋律或重要主题之一，手法近乎瓦格纳式的潜行，并非没有明确的旋律。

Gives you a hint of something else, but you have no idea what it is. And then there's more fantasy, and then you get that same material as confidential. So Chopin has just given your his first his main theme or one of his main themes, but he sort of snuck it in. It's sort of almost Wagnerian the way it sneaks in. It's not it's not that there's no declared melody.

比如这里我们有个旋律，各位。它是从音乐发展中自然生长出来的。

Like, here we have a tune, folks. This is it it it grows organically out of what's happening.

你曾告诫过要避免开场过于沉重，但

You've warned against an overly ponderous opening, but

这是首冗长的作品，若演奏不佳，你会巴不得它快点结束。说句不客气的话，最糟糕的情况莫过于听了很久很久后，发现还要煎熬二十分钟。

It's a long piece, and if it's not really well played, you just wish you were over fast. To be really unkind, one of the most difficult things is if you hear a long, long, long time, and then it's like, oh, we're gonna be here for the next twenty minutes.

但我同样欣赏那些能完成看似不可能任务的演绎者，无论是里赫特、古尔德还是其他钢琴家。或许有些钢琴家会想：天啊，杰里特·奥尔松在华沙当评委，我恐怕不能弹得太慢。

But I'm also a fan of interpreters who manage to do what seems like the impossible, whether it's Richter or Gould or other pianists. And and there might be pianists who's like, oh gosh, you know, Gerrit Olsson is on the jury in Warsaw. I guess I can't take it too slow.

噢不，别这样。很高兴你能给我机会修正自己的修正建议。首先，若你因为评委罗尔森想听特定风格而改变——千万别。

Oh, no. No. Please. I'm I'm glad you got you're giving me a chance to give a corrective to my own corrective. First of all, you know, if if you're thinking that, you know, miss Rolson's on the jury and wants to hear it a certain way, no.

不。不。不。不。请永远不要为评委演奏。

No. No. No. No. Please don't ever play for a jury.

你做不到。首先，我们人数太多。即便是在由杰出钢琴家、怀着最善意和最真诚的音乐家组成的评审团中，我们也会彼此意见相左。这就是现实。这当然是学习钢琴的折磨。

You can't. There are too many first of all, are too many of us. And even among a very fine jury of very wonderful pianists, musicians with the best intentions and the greatest sincerity, we will disagree with each other. That's just the way it is. This is the torture of studying piano, of course.

回想我小时候，你并不会跟随许多老师学习，也没有那么多大师班之类的。你主要跟随一位导师学习，他会告诉你，在这个段落里，你的手腕必须这样动。然后你遇到第二位大师，他会说，你在干什么？在那个段落绝不能那样用手腕。你会想，这位大师这么说，那位大师那么说，这就是问题之一。

Now back when I was a kid, you didn't study with a lot of you didn't have lots of master classes and stuff. You studied with your principal teacher who tells you, in this passage, you must use your wrist like this. Then you get to great teacher number two who says, what are you doing? You must never use your wrist like that in that path. And you're just thinking, what you know, this great person says this, and this great person said this is one of the this is one of the problems.

所以如果你以为，哦，我听过评委中某位钢琴家的大师班，他们希望这首曲子这样处理。是的。但其他评委呢？我的意思是，你无法为整个评委团演奏。我不知道你能为谁演奏。

So if you think that, oh, I've heard a masterclass with pianist Xs on the jury, and they want this in this piece. Yeah. But what about all the rest of us? I mean, you know, it's for you can't you can't play for a jury. You I don't know who you can play.

你必须为肖邦、为自己和天空中理想的听众演奏。但我对此绝不封闭。像你一样，我也可能被最初看似不可能的演奏方式说服。它先构建一个终止式，然后毫无预兆地在复调中中断。起初我并未真正理解这首曲子。

You have to play for Chopin and yourself and the ideal audience member in the sky. But so I am not closed minded about that at all. I, like yourself, can be very convinced by an approach which at first seems impossible. Makes a cadence at one point then interrupts in a polynomial with no warning. And I didn't really get the piece at first.

我对它很着迷。我喜欢它，但无法像理解《英雄波兰舞曲》那样理解它。直到我在茱莉亚音乐学院跟随罗西娜·列文涅学习时，她让我学习这首曲子，我才开始疯狂迷恋它，非常着迷。它曲折迂回，自我挣扎，无法决定去向何方。

I was intrigued with it. I liked it, but I couldn't follow it the way I could follow the Grand Polonnese Mhmm. Or the other ones, until I was at Juilliard with Rosina Levine. She wanted me to to learn it, and I learned it, and I began to be crazy about it, very crazy about it. It twists and turns and fights with itself, and it can't decide where it's going.

它有痛苦的爆发式中断等等。所以它甚至包含一些炫技段落。然后你会感觉，哦，我们要到达某处了，他确实发展了主题，但并不持久。不像那些英雄式波兰舞曲中让你欢欣的段落。它不断转折、自我打断，以不同方式发展主题，最终形成一个难以追溯源头的宏大高潮。

It has outbursts of anguished interruption and so on. So it's it even has some virtuosity, you know. And then you you feel, oh, we're going somewhere, and and he certainly does develop it, but it doesn't last long. And it's not like in the heroic colonies where you get these sections that make you so happy. It keeps it keeps taking different turns and interrupting itself and developing itself in different ways and actually creates quite a large climax, which is hard to figure out where it came from.

我是说，他是怎么做到的？对吧？但它确实缺乏其他波兰舞曲那种自信。

I mean, what how did he get there? You know? Right. But it it just doesn't have the kind of confidence that all the other Polyneses have.

我们在作品44号及其他波利尼西亚风格作品中讨论的这个元素，当它移至第二拍甚至第一拍末尾时，确实会推动你向前或让你站立起来。而这个元素几乎让你侧移。它有着同样的冲击感，常常在情感上将你带向一个方向——不是那么自信地向前迈进，而是有点让你从原地偏移。然而它运用了相同的节奏。

This this element we were talking about in opus 44 and other Polyneses where that move to the second beat or even to the to the end of one, you know, really sends you forward or it gets you standing up. This one almost sends you sideways. It has that same bump. It will often emotionally take you in a in a direction not so confidently forward marching, but a little bit like displacing you from where you're at. And yet it uses that same rhythm.

是的。你提到的这个高潮段落在所有声部都高度半音化，包括低音、高音及中间所有声部，整体向下进行却又戏剧性地解决，最后以花束般的终止式收尾。这非常——我是说，美得惊人。然后它引出一些过渡性的波利尼西亚素材。

And the yes. And this climactic section that that you're talking about is highly chromatic in all of the voices. I mean, both the bass treble and everything else in between, and is pulling downwards and yet then resolves sort of dramatically and then has a has a bouquet of flowers to as a as a cadence. It's it's very I mean, it's incredibly beautiful. And then it leads up to stuff which is transitional Paulinese material.

它从未真正抵达。它像国王般侧移到另一个调性。它绕道而行，总威胁着要去往某处，却始终未曾真正到达。

It never arrives. It's kings. Sideways to another key. It takes a detour. It always threatens to go get somewhere, but it never quite does.

而当它看似接近目的地时，他总在不断转向别处。

And then when it's approaching, getting somewhere. He's constantly going somewhere else.

他会花上几分钟时间，用听起来像是过渡性的‘嗯’来填充，然后发展这些过渡性素材。嗯。接着你会在某个时刻意识到，也许那本来就是主要的。我也不确定。

He'll occupy minutes at a time with what sounds like transitional Yeah. Material, then he develops the transitional material. Yeah. And then you realize, at some point, maybe it was primary. I don't know.

是啊。当然，一旦他在这里安定下来，就会重新触及我们的主题。现在变得更像宣叙调了。主题出现了，但更加令人不安。这有点像意识流式的诗人诗歌，不是吗？

Yeah. And, of course, once he once he settles here, it's pings back our theme. Now it gets more recitative like. And here's the theme, but it's much more upset. It's sort of a stream of consciousness kind of poets poetry, isn't it?

它就这样...它最终会到达它要去的地方

It's it's it goes where it it winds up

在一个它意想不到的地方，然后他又做了别的事情。这让我怀疑，是否仅仅因为我听得够多，就觉得它合理。是的，我也是。或者它其实并不合理，只是我听得够多，知道接下来会发生什么。

in a place it doesn't expect to, and then he does something else. It makes me wonder if I just think that it makes sense because I've heard it enough. Yeah. Me too. Or if it doesn't actually make sense and I've just heard it enough that I know what comes next.

但它确实有一种情感逻辑。即使形式来源于这种幻想的焦点转移，反思性与当下与过去的对比。谁知道这些符号代表什么？

But it does there is a logic to emotional logic to it. Even if the form comes from this fantasy shifting of focus, reflectiveness versus present versus past. Who knows what the symbols are?

还有即兴演奏者的狂野，他也是如此。

And the and and and the wildness of an improviser, which he was also.

对。它感觉像是编造的，却又连贯。

Right. It does feel made up and yet cohesive.

听起来像巴赫的《半音幻想曲与赋格》及其情绪。它非常不安，主要围绕b小调，偶尔偏离。最终以b小调收尾，我只能用巴洛克幻想线条来形容。然后是拉威尔那不可思议的三重距离之一。我们到达了作品的核心，即b大调，也就是降c调。

Sounds like the Bach chromatic fantasy in fugue and mood. It's very upset, stays mostly around b minor with a detour. It settles on b minor with an immense I I can only give it as a baroque fantasy line. And then one of the incredible ravel distances, that triple distance. And we reach the heart of the piece, which is b major, which is c flat.

再一次，它几乎是一种b大调的梦境状态。不完全如此，但在某种程度上，是的。

And once again, it's almost a dream state in b major. Not quite, but, yeah, to a degree.

我们现在也得想想f小调幻想曲，因为它实际上一直处于类似的调性中。b大调是其中心。

And we have to think of the f minor fantasy now too because which is in a similar key really the whole time. B major is the center of that.

是的。我是说，他做了很多事情。有一个开场部分。如果这首曲子是昨天才被发现的，有人会说它听起来更像莱贝托芬的风格。

Yeah. I mean, he does a number of things. There's there's an introductory. Now if this piece were just discovered yesterday, somebody would say it's it sounds more like Leybethoven.

对。我正想说那部分。

Yeah. I was gonna say that part.

所以它非常庄重。嗯。有点庄重。但不管怎样，那是一个四小节的引子，引出了一个非常重要的主题，但你甚至还没意识到。

So it's so solemn. Mhmm. It's a bit solemn. But anyway, that's a four bar intro to what becomes a very important motif, but you don't even know it.

嗯，听起来就像是个伴奏。是的。

Well, it just sounds like an accompaniment. Yeah.

而在它之上甚至算不上旋律，只是一小段。我总觉得我们身处某个高处，在群山之巅。我是说，这里的视野非常开阔。然后他带我们回到B调，你以为会重复同样的部分，但右手却出现了变奏。我们听到了一段非常温柔的旋律片段，美得令人难以置信。

And above it is not even a tune, just a scrap. I always think we're someplace very elevated, high on the mountains. I mean, there there's something very the horizon is very large here. And he brings us back to B, and you think we're gonna get the same thing over again, but we get a variation in the right hand. We get a very tender scrap of melody, which is really incredibly beautiful.

只出现了两次，但它确实上升了。接下来的三小节里，我们遇到了最不可思议的半音阶分解，就像拉奥大师在评论舒伯特那首带有分解感的作品时说的，仿佛血肉从骨头上剥离。然后他停下了。所以无论之前发生了什么，现在都决定不再继续。你知道吗？但在高潮和升华部分，我们会得到解决，一个不可思议的解决，他实际上会完成这个旋律。

Only twice, but it does rise to Now in the next three bars, we have the most incredible chromatic disintegration, whereas I think it was Maestro Rao said in the piece of Schubert that has a disintegration, he said, it's as if the flesh come off the bones. Then he stops. So whatever's been going on has just decided it's not gonna continue. You know? But it will in the apotheosis and the climax, we will get a resolution of this, an incredible resolution, and he will actually finish this tune.

他真的要完成它了，这一点我直到雷蒙德·沃尔普告诉我才知道。哦，太美了。

He's actually going to finish it, which I didn't know until Raymond Volpe told me about it. Oh, that's so beautiful.

所以我从未想过最终能完成这件事

And so I never thought of it as finally completing

那种

that sort of

半梦半醒的状态 确实如此。

half dream Exactly.

早些时候。

Earlier.

直到高潮部分他才真正解决了威胁——那些交织的可能性线索，还有，我不知道，焦虑、情绪起伏、沉思，以及之前所有复杂的混合情感。

It takes until the climax for him to really resolve the threat various threads of possibility and, I don't know, anxiety, mood moodiness, thoughtfulness, all all the different mixed emotions that came before.

我们在哪里？这时他给出了全曲中最令人难忘的短旋律之一。他让歌手实际演唱出来——段肖邦风格的小调。

Where are we? And he gives you one of the memorable short tunes in the piece. He has a singer actually sing it. A little Chopin tune.

这可能是整部作品中最富旋律性、最具肖邦风格的曲调。乐曲中有很多铺垫，然后...是的，又迅速枯萎瓦解。现在该轮到本开始对那些可能不真实的事情诗兴大发了。我是说，我并不清楚这部作品里究竟有多少传记性内容。

It's the most melodious Chopin esque tune in the whole piece probably. There's a lot of building and then Yeah. Quickly wilting and disintegrating in this piece. And now it's time for Ben to wax poetic about things that probably aren't true. I mean, I don't know what biographical content is actually in this piece.

我是说，我并非指肖邦生命中的这一天等同于波利尼亚幻想曲的某一页或某一小节，但他在三十五六岁时——大约是18世纪——已意识到自己的有限生命。那时他已开始反思

I mean, I'm not saying on this day of Chopin's life equals this page or measure of the Pauline's fantasy, but he in his mid thirties, which would have been the 18, had an awareness of his mortality. He was already reflecting on

他的一生。病痛缠身。

his life. Sick.

我听到一种对他生命的沉思，或者如果我们不特指肖邦，那就是对任何人生命的思考。嗯。有种接纳——有些事物会突然出现又凋零，没有解释，没有发展，没有理由。有时候，生活就是这样。嗯。

I hear a reflectiveness on his life, or if we don't care about Chopin in particular, on one's life. Mhmm. There's an acceptance that some things will emerge and then wither away without explanation, without development, without justification. Sometimes, that's just life. Mhmm.

它有着自己的韵律，但此刻他做了件极不寻常的事。他开始像晚年的贝多芬或斯克里亚宾那样沉迷于颤音。所以这真是...我是说，这太像幻想了。如此丰沛。一个元素接一个元素涌现。

And it's got a cadence, but now we he does something that is very uncharacteristic. He starts becoming preoccupied with trills in the manner of late Beethoven or Scriabin. So it's I mean, it's such a fantasy. It's so rich. There's one element after the next.

然后他让情绪平静下来，重新演绎开头的'很久以前'主题。最后决定再拜访这个主题最后一次。

And then he lets that calm down, then he recaps the opening once upon a time. Then decides to just visit this theme one last time.

是啊。就像直接回到了原点。

Yeah. It's like it goes right back to it.

音乐戛然而止。然后我们听到这段如八分音符般的旋律。

It stops. And we get this music, which is like those eighth notes.

这是作品中第一个真正决定性的时刻，就像突然顿悟一样。我感觉在此之前，我们已经进行了大约十分钟。某种程度上，它本可以永远是一系列幻想般的自由联想。直到此刻之前，都没有这种强烈的驱动力——我明白了，我抓住了关键。

This is the first really decisive moment of the piece where it's like, oh. I feel like up until this point, we're like ten minutes in. Yeah. In a way, it could have been a series of fantasy like free associations forever. It didn't it doesn't feel like until right now, there's a sense of real driven, I've I've got it.

我弄明白了。我找到了这部作品的要义所在。真的，就是这个瞬间，但这并不意味着之前发生的一切无关紧要。所有内容最终都汇聚成此刻的爆发。你明白我的意思吗？

I've figured it out. I found the point of this piece. Really, it's like this moment, and it doesn't mean it's inconsequential what happens before. It's all ultimately culminating to what happens. Do you know what I mean?

终于有种感觉，我的手指触碰到了这一切最初意图指向的意义核心。

There's finally a sense of I've got my finger on the meaning of of where all of this was meant to go to begin with.

说得好。

Good point.

你在那里有感觉吗？

Do you feel that here?

就像是

It's like

总是这样。总是。我一直有感觉

do always. Always. I always feel

突然，哦。这是故意的。我明白了。嗯哼。是的。

Suddenly, oh. This is on purpose. I've got it. Uh-huh. Yeah.

我们有一个宏大的铺垫，但随后迎来了再现部，变得狂放不羁。钢琴部分的创作展现出真正卢斯蒂安式的壮丽。

We have a big buildup, but then we get a recapitulation, and it goes crazy. And piano writing of a of a truly Lustian grandiosity.

天啊。把这段与升f小调复调曲的高潮部分相比。它们都有一个...

Shoot. God, compare that to the climax in the f sharp minor polynomial. They both have a.

没错。

That's right.

这与...正好相反。确实如此。这段更加崇高。没错。没那么摧枯拉朽。

This is the opposite of Yeah. Exactly. This is much more exalted Exactly. Less devastating.

接着发生了几件事。他带回了这个。对。如同神化般。是三连音。

Then, a couple of things happen. He brings back this. Right. As with an apotheosis. It's triplets.

所以我们也能听到其上的主题旋律。如我之前提到的，这个主题现在结束了。它可以尽情歌唱直到曲终。

So we get the theme that's above it too. As I mentioned before, this theme now ends. It can sing its song until it's done.

最终，这就像是我所经历过的所有这些不同的人生轨迹，它们并不总是如我所愿地发展，或如我预期般结束，但它们曾是美好的，然后逐渐消逝。现在它们似乎正以一种方式显现或浮现，最终带来一种 culmination（顶点）和意义构建的感觉，有时这可能需要一生的时间才能实现。你觉得这太深奥了吗，还是你也能感受到这种反思性？

Finally, it's like all of these these various strains of of experience that I've had that didn't always seem to go as I would have hoped or end up as I thought they maybe should have, but were beautiful and then and then disintegrated, They're sort of appearing or they're emerging, and finally, there's a sense of culmination and sense making that sometimes takes a lifetime maybe to to achieve. Do you is this too deep, or do you feel this kind of reflectiveness

关于这首曲子吗？我非常喜欢。但这引出了一个诠释上的问题，我至今未能想通，不过我和许多音乐家及钢琴家讨论过。这值得思考，因为它源自我最后一位重要的老师Irma Volpe，她说她总是对大多数人演奏这段感到些许不满，因为一旦到这里，所有人都会弹得飞快，音量变得极大，整首曲子几乎毫无喘息地持续强奏。而她认为——无论是她自己还是Stefan Volpe曾告诉她——主题在此自我完成，她说这是一个非常动人的结尾，是肖邦长线条作品的典型特征，其终止式会带来一种难以言喻的满足感。

of the piece? I'm loving it. But this brings up an interpretive point, which I have not been able to resolve in my mind, but I've talked to lots of musicians and pianists about it. But it's worth considering because it comes from my my my last important teacher, Irma Volpe, who said she always felt a little dissatisfied with most people's performance of this because once you get to this, he said, everybody plays fast, and it gets incredibly loud, and the piece is kind of relentlessly loud. And because she felt she or Stefan Volpe, whoever told her about the theme finishing itself, she said this is a very moving conclusion, and it's typical of a of a Chopin long line piece where the cadence becomes this point of incredible satisfaction.

她接着说，通常到这个时候，听众已经被连续的三连音和八度炫技轰炸得精疲力尽。而这时肖邦却写下一个加速记号（accelerando），之前从未出现过。她表示自己并未提出解决方案，但或许这正是演奏家应该真正释放技巧的时刻。

And she says, usually, by that point, you've just been hammered to death by triplets and octaves and showing off. She said, and then he writes an accelerando. He doesn't write that before. So she said she and she didn't propose a solution. She said, but maybe this is where it should the virtuoso should take off.

你知道的，就该让骑兵队真正冲锋陷阵。

You know, then let the cavalry really.

有点像是策马奔向夕阳的感觉。那个

It's a little bit riding off in the sunset a bit. The the

我无法持续保持快乐。

the I can't stay happy.

对我来说这仍然充满欢愉。那些和声依然美妙。

It still feels happy to me. Those are still okay harmonies.

然后是那个古怪的结尾。它还在继续。是

And then the odd ending. It continues. Is

这不是升F小调波利尼西亚结尾的某种怪异版本吗？它们都逐渐减弱。它们都有这种跳跃感。它们像是被抽泣打断。它们像是渐渐消逝。

this not some kind of bizarro version of the end of the f sharp minor polynese? They both they both recede. They both have this kind of jump. They kind of get sobbed. They kind of die away.

确实如此。是同样的结尾。没错。实际上就是。我之前没想到这一点。

That's true. It's the same ending. Yeah. Actually, it is. I hadn't thought of that.

然而情绪却几乎处于光谱的两端。

And yet the moods are on, like, sort of opposite ends of the spectrum almost.

完全正确。哦，本，莫迪先生。我觉得你是对的。我认为那些因为人们过分强调了这些和声的悲剧性特质。我想我可以接受

Exactly. Oh, Ben, mister Modi. I think you're right. I think those because much has been made of over the tragic quality of these harmonies. I think I I can buy as

这几乎就像

It's almost like a

这只是个延迟音。它不必有时候它会慢下来。

It's only a retard. It doesn't have to sometimes it slows down.

你知道吗？那笑容里藏着几分苦涩。但整体并不让人觉得悲怆。我找不到结局。这首曲子其实哀伤至极。

You know? There's a wry smile in there somewhere. It doesn't feel tragic at all. I don't find the ending. The piece is incredibly sad.

天啊。他这一生过得真不容易。结尾似乎不仅与命运达成了和解，更像是穿越黑暗后抵达了更好的彼岸。

Oh my goodness. It's a sad life he's lived. The ending seems to make more than just peace with it. It seems to actually come out on the other end in a in better place.

不。我是说，我听过的解读和接触的乐迷都认为这恰恰证明了作品的悲剧性。但通常这意味着演奏时要放得极缓...嗯。就这么处理吧。我只是好奇...

No. I mean, I just have heard interpretations and talked to people who believe that this is just another illustration of how tragic the piece is. But very often, the that means you play it very, very slowly and Mhmm. Do that. I just wonder.

也许不是。好吧。Rit。Rit代表什么？Ritenuto（突慢），ritenuto有时会简写成Ente。

Maybe not. Okay. Rit. What does rit mean? Ritenuto, riten written Ente.

对。稍微...就一点点...或许这就是彼此呼应的答案，我想看看...

Right. A little just a little Maybe it's the answer to with each other, I wanted to see how

你最后那段是怎么处理的？我在迈阿密采访了所有决赛选手。今年国际航运大赛及其选拔赛的决赛曲目都强制要求这首曲子。有位选手在结尾降A音上持续停顿，另一位单手抬起另一手保持。我在专访中问过他们，似乎都和...有关

you played those at the end because I talked to all the finalists in Miami. Of course, they all had to play this because that's required in the finals this year in both international shipping competition and the ones that feed into it. And one competitor played the a flats at the end, kind of stayed on. Another did one hand was up and the other hand stayed on. But I talked to them about it in the interviews, and it seems to have something to do with yeah.

我是说，你们怎么理解最后一个音符？这是安吉琳·马，她在弹完终和弦时举起了右臂。

I mean, how they how do you read the last note? Here's Angeline Ma, who raised her right arm upon playing the final chord.

所以，我，就像，痴迷于音乐中的死亡主题，有时我会将作品中最后的动作解读为死亡的降临，比如勃拉姆斯作品118第6号。但在波洛奈兹幻想曲中，我认为它更加光辉灿烂，结尾的方式听起来像是即将放弃，却突然迸发出一个强音和弦，这在我看来就像一颗星星，或者一个灵魂升入天空，然后有一颗星星为那个灵魂点亮。

So I, like, am obsessed with death in music and there are times where I think with the final motion of a piece that I interpret as being death goes down and that's like Brahms opus 118 number six. But I think in this, in the Polynes fantasy, it's so much more radiant and the way it ends, it sounds like it's about to give up and then we suddenly have this Fortissimo chord and that that I see as like a star or maybe like a soul going into the sky and then there's a star that lights up for that soul.

所以他在曲中死去了？

So he dies in the piece?

我我不确定。我还在琢磨这个问题。

I I don't know. I'm still figuring that out.

现在有请威廉·古，他的双手在最后一个和弦时稳稳地停留在琴键上。

Now here's William Guh whose hands stayed put on the keys for the last court.

我认为波洛奈兹幻想曲的结尾是胜利的，但那个颤音，它如此阴森。甚至在开头的八度音中，就有一种贯穿全曲的阴森感，尽管结尾多么辉煌。所以，我会更用力地按住那个音符，我绝对是在向钢琴施压。

I see the end of the Polonnese fantasy as it is triumphant, but I feel like that that, like, trill, it's so sinister. And even in the beginning with the octave, like, something sinister that has stayed throughout the piece, like, despite how triumphant it is at the end. So, like, I will hold that note that's kind of pushing more. I'm definitely pushing more into that piano.

安吉琳·马和威廉·古是美国国家肖邦比赛的六位决赛选手和获奖者之一，该比赛遵循与国际肖邦比赛相同的曲目要求，首次在其近百年历史中规定每位决赛选手必须在演奏肖邦两首协奏曲之一前表演幻想曲。迈阿密比赛的前两名获奖者威廉·杨和安东尼·拉蒂诺夫获得了直接进入2025年10月华沙比赛现场轮的资格。他们是85位钢琴家中的一员，争夺进入决赛阶段的机会，在那里他们将展示对肖邦最深奥作品之一的独特诠释。您可以在肖邦基金会YouTube频道上重温安东尼、威廉·杨及其他美国决赛选手演奏波洛奈兹幻想曲的表演。顺便一提，杨在最后一个和弦时双手未抬起，而拉蒂诺夫举起了左臂。

Angeline Ma and William Goh were among the six finalists and prize winners of the US National Chopin Competition, which adheres to the same repertoire requirements as the International Chopin Competition, which for the first time in its nearly hundred year history specifies that the Fantasy must be played by every finalist just before performing one of Chopin's two concertos. The top two prize winners from the Miami competition, William Yang and Anthony Ratinov, received automatic admission to the live rounds of the Warsaw Competition in October 2025. They are among the 85 pianists vying to reach the final stage where they will present their own unique interpretations of one of Chopin's most profound works. You can revisit Anthony, William Yang, and the other US finalists performing the Polonnets fantasy on the Chopin Foundation YouTube channel. And just for the record, Yang kept his hands down for the final chord while Ratinov lifted his left arm.

嗯，我认为对于任何走到那一步的人来说，这也是令人兴奋的。因为如果有一首曲子能真正让你留下印记，对吧，就是这首。对我来说，是F小调叙事曲和这首曲子，我从未想过——好吧，我可以向你推荐各种精彩的演奏，但我从未有过‘就是它了’的感觉。

Well, it's also exciting, I think, for anyone who makes it that far. Because if there's ever a piece you can really make your mark on Right. It's this one. For me, it's the F. Meyer, Ballade, and this piece, I I never think well, I can point you to all kinds of great performances, but I've never been like, yes.

终于找到了。是的。我希望它能保持这样。是的。我喜欢这样。

That's finally found it. Yeah. And I want it to stay that way. Yeah. I like it that way.

哦，我认为那些部分会保持原样。它们会抗拒改变。

Oh, I think I think those pieces will stay that way. They're they will resist that.

这对参加比赛的年轻钢琴家来说应该很激动人心，他们可能不是那个为所有人实现突破的人，但可能会为你做到。你或许会亲眼见证一个启示，

And it should be exciting for young pianists who's entering a competition that not that they might be the one who who finally does that for everybody, but they might do it for you. You might actually I might a revelation right before you,

就像那样

like that

的经历。听过波琳的幻想曲如此出色，如此令人满足。无论他们刚刚做了什么。

experience. Heard the Pauline's fantasy quite that good, quite that satisfying. Whatever they just did.