TBPN 1亿美元以上退出的9个教训

今天的嘉宾是约翰·库根和乔迪·海斯，他们是TBPN的主持人。

Today's guests are John Coogan and Jordi Hays, the hosts of TBPN.

这其实是他们第二次上节目，但也是自今年四月重大消息传出以来的第一次——他们的节目被OpenAI以数亿美元收购。

It's actually the second time they've been on the show, but the first time since some major news broke in April that their show was acquired by OpenAI for hundreds of millions of dollars.

不好意思？

Excuse me?

你能再说一遍吗？

Could you say that again?

对。

Yeah.

那真是太疯狂了。

It was pretty crazy.

这确实是我在我们行业里读到过的最令人震惊的事情之一，可能也是创作者经济自诞生以来最引人注目的事件之一。

Was actually one of the most shocking things I've read in our industry and probably one of the most notable things that has happened in the creator economy since its inception.

其中一个主要原因

One of the major reasons for

这个价格之所以这么高，是因为他们是互联网上最懂营销的两个人。

that price tag is because they are two of the smartest marketing minds on the Internet.

这两个人真的非常厉害。

These guys are truly incredible.

这段对话来自我们的活动“Press Publish LA”，当时我们探讨了好莱坞和创作者经济的交汇点。

This conversation comes from our event Press Publish LA, where we covered the intersection of Hollywood and the creator economy.

有意思的是，他们其实是在好莱坞的一个工作室里搭建这个节目的，自称“新传统媒体”——基本就是借鉴传统电视的手法，比如这个直播节目看起来有点像体育中心，但把它带进了一个新世界，主要用推特来分发，感觉又有点像直播主播，而且说实话，他们完全是用一种不同的方式来对待我们通常所说的播客。

And what's interesting about these guys, they actually built the show in a studio in Hollywood, and they call themselves Neo Trad Media, basically adopting traditional television techniques, like looking at this livestream show that looks and feels kind of like SportsCenter, but bringing it into a new world using Twitter as the primary distribution, looking and feeling kind of like a live streamer, and honestly approaching the world of what maybe we consider podcasting in a completely different way.

每天直播，不剪辑，刻意小众化。

Daily, live, no editing, niche by design.

好的。

Okay.

所以在这段对话里，你会听到约翰和乔迪分享的九条经验，全是关于他们如何在短短两年内推出TBPN，然后以超过一亿美元的价格卖给了OpenAI。

So in this conversation, you're going to hear the nine lessons from John and Jordi, all about how they actually were able to launch TBPN, in a matter of just two years, sell it to OpenAI for over a $100,000,000.

这两个人真的是我在这个行业里最喜欢的人之一，也是媒体界最敏锐的头脑之一。

These guys are truly some of my favorite people in our industry and some of the sharpest minds in media.

所以我觉得你们应该会很喜欢这次对话。

So I think you guys will really enjoy this conversation.

接下来是我们在现场录制的节目，嘉宾是TBPN的John Coogan和Jordi Hays。

Here's our live episode with John Coogan and Jordi Hays of TBPN.

你们好吗？

What's up, guys?

我们挺好的。

We're doing well.

谢谢

Thank you

邀请我们。

for having us.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thank you for having us.

我不确定你们有没有确认这个消息，但我记得看过那个标题。

So I don't know if you have confirmed the news, but I remember seeing the headline.

有意思的是，那天正好是4月2号。

Funny enough, it was on April 2

对。

Yes.

OpenAI花了据说几亿美元买了你们的节目。

That OpenAI bought your show for reported hundreds of millions of dollars.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们本来想过4月1号发的。

We thought about doing April 1.

本来准备4月1号发，但那样只会让事情更混乱，就算放到4月2号也够乱的了。

Were ready to do April 1, but that was going to be even more confusing than it already was, even on April 2.

所以，给那些没看过这节目的人——毕竟它本来就是小众设计——简单介绍一下TBPN吧：节目内容、在哪儿播、面向谁，总之就是概括一下。

So for people who haven't seen the show, because it is niche by design, explain the show, where it's distributed, hoots for, all the above, TBPN in a nutshell.

好。

Yeah.

这是一个每天三小时的直播节目，从太平洋时间上午11点到下午2点。

It's a live stream three hours a day from 11AM to 2PM Pacific.

内容涵盖科技和商业，重点关注私募市场的初创公司，尤其是硅谷，我和Jordi早期职业生涯就是在那里起步的。

Covers technology and business with a focus on startups in the private markets, really Silicon Valley where Jordi and I sort of built our early careers.

大约一年多前，我们俩都处于项目空档期，想着不如做个播客。

And then a little over a year ago, we were both in between projects and thought we should start a podcast.

这很常见。

Very common.

大家都觉得这是个机会。

People think there's an opportunity.

但很快我们就发现，做这件事特别有意思，而且有机会认真把它做大。

But very quickly we realized that we had so much fun doing it and we had the opportunity to take it incredibly seriously.

于是我们破釜沉舟，全职投入，就像对待任何一家初创公司一样，把它看作一个机会，去打造一个独立的一流媒体产品，而不是依附于其他项目或为其他项目服务，而是我们全部的焦点。

And so we sort of burned all the other ships and focused full time just like it was any other startup And viewed it as an opportunity to build something not alongside something else, not in service of something else, but actually as a first class media product that was going to be our entire focus.

而这一点很快就产生了叠加效应。

And that really started compounding very quickly.

我觉得我们在那个领域也挺幸运的，因为，你知道，我们并不是科技圈里第一个说‘嘿，我们该做个播客’的人。

I think we were lucky in our category too because you know, we weren't the first two guys in tech to say, hey we should start a podcast.

我们大概已经是第一百万个了。

We were probably the million.

但我们的优势在于，这个领域里的人纯粹是把内容当营销工具。

But we had the benefit of the people in our category were using content purely as marketing.

他们要么有自己的创业公司，想靠播客推广业务；要么有风投基金，想吸引创业者和有限合伙人的关注。

So they had a startup and they wanted a podcast to promote their startup or they had a venture fund and they wanted to get in front of founders and LPs.

所以我们一进来，就很容易比其他人认真十倍、一百倍，迅速积累起很大的势头。

And so by coming in and it was very easy for us to take it 10 times, 100 times more seriously than everyone else, and build a lot of momentum really quickly.

那我们直接进入第一课吧？

So why don't we dive into lesson one?

好。

Yes.

因为我觉得，用这九堂课已经足够吊起观众的胃口了。

Because we've hooked the audience, I think, sufficiently with nine lessons.

让我先来。

Let me start.

对吧？

Right?

你们都在等那九条经验教训？

You guys are waiting for the nine lessons?

是的。

Yes.

是时候讲第九条了。

It's time for nine Number

第八条会让你大吃一惊。

eight will shock you.

第八条

Number eight

会让你大吃一惊。

will shock you.

第一点是全职投入。

Number one was going full time.

我觉得我们之前也聊过一点这个。

And I think that we talked a little bit about that.

第二点是不怕做小众领域。

Number two was not being afraid to be niche.

你经常提到这个，但我们内部其实有个数字。

You've talked about this a lot, but we had an internal number.

我也不清楚那个20万是怎么来的，可能因为我之前做过YouTube，见过视频播放量上千万，所以心里总有个念头——我知道怎么拿到百万播放，那就是内容要更大众化。

I don't know where we got 200,000 from, but maybe it's because I'd been doing YouTube before and I'd seen videos go into the millions and I felt the pull of, okay, I know what it takes to get a million views and it's being more general.

聊政治、聊消费，但如果你采访一家做HR软件的B轮公司，根本不可能有几千万播放。可我们的观众，就是喜欢这种内容，虽然很多人觉得无聊，但我们的细分受众就是爱看。所以我们决定接受这一点，不去追求播放量最大化。

Talking about politics, talking about consumer, like you just can't get millions and millions of views on an interview with a Series B company that's doing HR software, but our audience, our niche audience, as boring as that sounds to a lot of people, our audience loves that and so we said we're going to be okay with that and we're not going to try and view max.

我们不会过分纠结于数据指标。

We're not going to try and be obsessed with the metrics.

我们只希望数据保持健康就好。

We want the metrics to be healthy.

我们希望观众能真正参与进来。

We want the audience to be there.

我们希望观众是真实的。

We want the audience to be real.

然后我们围绕这个细分受众群体构建了其余的业务模式，我们从不以浏览量来衡量，比如‘有这么多观看量，明年我们要扩大十倍’。

Then we sort of built the rest of the business model around that idea of a niche audience that where we were never selling against, oh, there's so many views and we're going to go 10 times bigger next year.

而是说，不，我们要真正触达硅谷那些很难接触到的人。

It's like, no, we're going to actually reach people in Silicon Valley that are pretty hard to reach.

对，确实，我也不知道那个200的数字是从哪来的。

Yeah, there's a there's yeah, going, I don't know where we got the 200.

可能就是听起来不错吧。

Think it just sounded sounded nice.

黄金。

Gold.

对，100次播放算是保守了，再高的话，就会有人问为什么达不到。

Yeah, 100 pay would be sandbagging, if you go any higher it's why aren't

是的，我们行业里有很多故事，在播客上根本没人聊，尽管大家花了很多时间听播客。

you Yeah, there was a lot of stories in our industry that weren't being talked about at all on podcasts, even though industry was spending a lot of time listening to podcasts.

而且我们知道大概有20万人会对这些内容非常感兴趣，但其他所有人完全不会在意。

And we knew that there was roughly 200,000 people that were going be very interested in that, but the entire rest of the world wouldn't care at all.

所以机会就在于真正专注于这20万人。即使到了今天，我们依然首先致力于服务这20万人。

And so the opportunity was to actually just commit to that 200 ks and even today where we're at, we're still first and foremost committed to that 200 ks.

所以如果有人问我做什么，我说我有个现场节目，我通常不会让他们去看，因为我知道他们根本不会觉得有趣。

And so, if people ask me what I do and I say, yeah, I've got a live show, I oftentimes don't tell them you should check it out because I know that they're going to not find it interesting at all.

对吧？

Right?

因为只有那20万人会觉得有趣。

Because it's only interesting for that Right.

20万人。

200,000 people.

当时有没有其他人也在做类似的细分市场，给了你信心去做我们这样的尝试？

Was there someone else out there that was running somewhat of a similar niche play that gave you the confidence to do something like us?

是我们吗？

Was it us?

对，对，对。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

我从你身上学到了很多。我是说，我从2020年开始做YouTube，你发的每个视频我都看了，学到了很多。

I learned a ton from you throughout the I mean, I started doing YouTube in 2020 and watched every video you put out, learned a ton.

还有其他人，比如道格·德穆罗在汽车领域就做得很好，还有很多其他创作者。

There were other I mean, Doug DeMuro has a great niche in Cars, and there's so many other creators.

这种事情来来去去。

It comes and goes.

每当你开始一个新爱好，我觉得你就能找到那个领域的顶尖人物。

Whenever you pick up a new hobby, I feel like you find the pinnacle of that niche.

然后你会发现那里有一个很棒的商业机会，很多人会找那个人要签名，也有很多人会问：那是谁？

You And realize that there's a beautiful business there, and there's a lot of people that would stop that person for autographs, and there's a lot of people that would say, Who is that person?

我觉得这就是现代互联网创作者的常态。

And that's just the nature of the modern internet creator, I think.

你们觉得你们看的最冷门的东西是什么？

What's the most niche thing you guys watch, you think?

哦，最冷门的。

Oh, most niche.

我在YouTube上看一个专门做潜艇视频的博主，H。

I watch this guy on YouTube that just makes videos about submarines, H.

I。

I.

Sutton。

Sutton.

我晚上听不了任何科技或商业相关的内容，对吧？

I I can't listen to anything tech or business related at night Right.

因为那会让我睡不着。

Because it just keeps me up.

因为我脑子里会想，我得回复那个人，或者明天节目上得聊这个。

Because I'm thinking I gotta get back to that person or we gotta talk about that on the show tomorrow.

所以这个人会做那种长视频，详细讲解潜艇的各种细节。

And so this guy makes long form videos of, like, intricate details about submarines.

我特别喜欢看。

And I just love it.

那太棒了。

That's amazing.

我也喜欢。

I love it.

对。

Yeah.

好了，第三个是什么？

Alright, what's three?

第三个。

Three.

第三个是‘保持日常更新’。

Three is be daily.

必须每天更新、及时，还要直播。

Gotta be daily, timely, and live.

我们聊过这个，内容杠铃策略。

We talked about this, the content barbell.

要么是时效性的，要么是永恒的。

Either timely or time Less.

永恒的。

Timeless.

对，永恒的经典内容。

Yeah, Timeless Evergreen.

现在的内容，要么有时效性，要么是永恒的。

Content, right now, either needs to be Timely or Timeless.

永恒的。

Timeless.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这个想法可能是你们先提出来的，我们重新演绎了一下，然后别人又接过去继续发展，估计最后功劳都会算在他们头上。

And I think you guys maybe originated that idea, we remixed it, and then someone else took it and ran with it and is probably gonna It's credit credit

全部开源。

all open for source.

开源。

Source.

但在我们这个行业，其实各行各业都一样，大家都在用播客来了解新闻动态。

But in our industry, people were, and I think everywhere, people are using podcasts to understand the news.

不过在科技领域，几乎所有的节目都是一周更新一次。

But in tech, almost every show was publishing once a week.

你想想，你最喜欢的播客可能周四录制，周五早上发布，但周五偏偏就爆出个大新闻。

And you know, your favorite podcast might record on a Thursday, but then Friday morning they release, but on Friday some crazy news happens.

所以当时有个很流行的段子，就是说：唉，这个事件发生在《All In》播客录制之后，所以我要到下期才能发表看法，到时候再聊吧。

And so there was a joke that was like pretty widespread that was Unfortunately, you know this event happened after the All In podcast recorded, so I won't have a take on this until next We can talk about it then.

对我们来说，日更这个点很重要，因为现在这个领域变化太快了，很大程度上要归功于人工智能。

And so for us, the daily element, you know the space is moving so quickly right now in large part due to AI.

所以每天都有新闻，如果你录一期节目，等到发布的时候，很可能已经过时了，不再像新闻产品那样有用了。

And so there is news every single day and if you record a show by the time you release it, there's a good chance that it's no longer current and it's no longer functioning as like a news product.

那你觉得，即使不是直播，这里的创作者们，是不是这个时代的一个要求就是要每天都能出现？

So do you feel like even if you're not live, the creators in here, like one of the requirements of this moment is to be available daily?

比如像Kareem Rama的《地铁观点》那样。

Meaning like Kareem Rama with Subway Takes.

我们之前白天聊过这个。

We talked about it earlier in the day.

就是说，《地铁观点》每天都有更新。

Like, Subway Takes is available every day.

Instagram上每天都有新的一期。

There's a new episode every day on Instagram.

是不是这样？

Is that

嗯，不确定人们是不是从《地铁观点》获取新闻。

Well, don't know if people get their news from Subway Takes.

我感觉我总是在翻看以前的节目。

I feel like I'm always scrolling the back catalog.

有时候会有一些时效性强的新闻，比如总统竞选或者政治竞选。

Sometimes there's news timely items like a presidential run or a political run.

但更多时候，如果你要做新闻评论类内容，那新闻一出来你就得马上跟上。

It's more for if you're in this reaction to the news content, you certainly have to be available when the news breaks.

我觉得更重要的是每天的迭代和改进。

Think more importantly, it's like the daily iteration and improvement.

所以我们每个工作日都会录制，一下线就立刻讨论哪里可以做得更好。

So every single day, every weekday we record, and the second we go offline, we're immediately talking about what could have been better.

比如，那个二十分钟的片段不太行，那个人一直揪着自己的观点不放，根本不是对话，也没什么意思。

Like hey that twenty minute segment, that wasn't great, this guy just wanted to stay on his talking points, it wasn't a conversation, it wasn't interesting.

那个人根本就不该上节目。

That person shouldn't have been on at all.

那个人表现太棒了，应该多聊一会儿才对。

That person was amazing, it should have been way longer.

我们漏掉了这条新闻，得赶紧补上。

We missed this story, we got to get to it.

新闻板块的标题字幕反应不够快，没达到应有的效果。

The Chiron wasn't as snappy as it should have been during the news section.

所以日常更新很大程度上是受新闻驱动的，但我觉得更重要的是，你

So like the daily nature is in large part news driven for us, but I would say even more importantly, you

可以

can

因为这种持续的迭代而进步得更快。

just improve much more rapidly because of that constant iteration.

跟我们节目形成对比的是Acquired FM播客，他们一个月才出一期。

And the counterpoint to our show is the Acquired FM podcast, which is once a month.

实际上，我记得他们现在一年只做八期节目。

Actually I think they do eight episodes a year now.

他们的节目非常经典，每期四个小时，研究得很深入，而且可以慢慢等，因为他们讲的公司都是长期有话题性的，那些节目能火很久，往期内容也很有价值。所以如果我们是个周播节目，你可能会忍不住想，哎，我们也像Acquired那样做个深度专题吧。

And they are incredibly timeless, masterpieces, four hour episodes, deeply researched and they can wait because the companies that they talk about are evergreen and those episodes will have runs for a really long time, their back catalog is really valuable and so it's If we were a weekly show, you might be tempted to say, Oh, let's go do a deep dive like Acquired.

但你永远没法在这方面超过他们。

But you're never going to beat them at that.

他们在这方面是最棒的。

They're the best at that.

那么杠铃的另一端是什么呢？

And so what's on the opposite end of the barbell?

就是每天直播、即时反应。

It's daily, live, instant reactions.

考虑到你们对我们和我们的频道很了解，如果让你们建议我们一年做八期还是每天更新，你们会怎么选？

Considering you guys know us and our channel pretty well, if you had to advise us on either being eight times a year or daily, where would you put us?

嗯，我们之前聊到的是，有些创作者正在杠铃的两端分化，要么做永恒的内容，要么做时效性的内容，但我很想知道有没有人能两者兼顾。

Well, I mean, what we were talking about before was is there So there are creators that are bifurcating across the barbell into timeless or timely, but I'm very interested to see if somebody can do both.

我们之前聊到Markiplier，他既做直播，也拍电影，真的拍了一部电影，两者都做了。

We were talking about Markiplier, both a live streamer and also a filmmaker, made a real movie, did both.

我相信他的电影会是永恒的，但他的直播则非常注重时效性。

I believe his movie will be timeless, but his live streams are very timely.

我在想这两者怎么结合起来。

And I'm wondering where that comes together.

我觉得这很个人化。

I think it's a very personal thing.

我不认为有放之四海而皆准的方法，但我知道，像马克普莱尔电影那样的事情发生时，我很想当天就能立刻听到你的看法。

I don't think you can fit a one size fits all, but I do know that when something like the Markiplier movie happens, I would love to be able to get your take the same day, instantly.

而且我今天注意到，实际上，我想明天，道格·德穆罗的这个汽车播客就要上线了。

And I and I noticed this today with, like I actually I think tomorrow, this car pod with Doug Dumero is going live.

我知道他对法拉利卢切会有很棒的见解，但那辆车是周一或周日发布的。

And I know he's gonna have a great take on the Ferrari Luche, but it dropped on Monday or Sunday.

明白。

Got it.

所以我得等整整一周。

And so I had to wait a whole week.

嗯，你也听说了。

I'm And you've heard that.

你已经听过

You've heard

很多其他观点了。

so many other takes.

对。

Yeah.

我后来去听了其他播客，想多了解一些看法，因为我对那个故事特别感兴趣。

I wound up going to some other podcasts to get more takes because I was so interested in that story.

我知道他肯定会做出很棒的内容。

I know he's gonna have great content.

如果他能在周一就获准发布那期节目——也许只是每周一期的常规节目，但我们可以做一期紧急特辑，很多人都会这么干。

And if he just had the permission to release that show on a Monday, which maybe might just be, it's a weekly show but we'll do an emergency episode, people do that.

没错。

Right.

我们当初就是这么开始的。

That's how we started.

我们那时候一天能赶五场紧急节目。

We were just doing emergency episodes five times a day.

我

I

也觉得我们从一开始就挺商业化的。

also think we have been very commercial from the beginning.

就是说，什么事你都得赶紧跟上，

As in everything You jump on seven,

你是在抢着上。

you're jumping.

对。

Yeah.

我，我打算跳过去说。

I'm I'm gonna jump ahead.

你才四岁。

You're four.

我们现在是第四集。

We're on four.

但对我们来说，我们有很多机会去做其他形式的内容。

But for us we had we had so many opportunities to go and make other forms of content.

有人会来找我们问，你们想不想拍个新版的《硅谷》？

People would come up to us and say, do you want to make a new version of Silicon Valley?

对吧？

Right?

我们就会说，听起来确实像那个节目。

We would just say, sounds really the show.

对吧？

Right?

听起来挺酷的。

Sounds cool.

但我们没时间做那个，因为我们每天直播三个小时，不过这事儿应该有人去做。

We don't have time to do that because we're live three hours a day, but somebody should do that.

或者有人会说，你想拍纪录片吗？

Or somebody would say, do you want to make a documentary?

我们就觉得，听起来不错。

And we're like, sounds cool.

这主意挺好的，应该有人去做。

That's a good idea, somebody should do that.

但我们没时间，每天要直播三个小时。

We don't have time to do that, we're live three hours a day.

或者，嘿，你能来拍这个视频吗？

Or hey, could you come and shoot this video?

有火箭要发射，会特别酷。

There's a rocket launching, it'll be really cool.

我们就觉得，那确实很酷。

And we're like, that's really cool.

可惜，我们每天要直播三个小时。

Unfortunately, we're live three hours a day.

我们肯定去不了。

We won't be able to make it.

你们俩在这件事上总是意见一致吗？还是说你们中有人会觉得，不，我们应该去？

Are you always both aligned on that or is one of you like, nah, we should go?

对，我们讨厌旅行。

Yeah, we hate traveling.

每周都有世界各地的人邀请我们去，去年我们做了将近250期节目，除了节假日外，只缺勤了一个工作日。

We get invited to go all over the world every single week and we did just under two fifty episodes last year, we missed one weekday that wasn't a holiday.

所以我们非常专注于待在工作室里工作。

And so we're very committed to just being at our studio working.

对我们来说，当主节目运作良好时，虽然其他机会很诱人，但把时间花在专注主节目上才是最好的选择。

And so for us, when the main show is working, so when we had all these other opportunities they were exciting, but the best use of our time was always stay focused on the main show.

所以我想问你们的是，在这些选择中，杠铃的哪一端对你们的业务更有利？

And so my question for you guys is, which of these things, which end of the barbell is going to be better for your business?

因为业务做得越好，你拥有的资源就越多，能做的事情也就越多。

Because the better your business is doing, more resources you're going to have, the more things you can do over time.

但我们早期的想法是，对，五年后再做类似的事情吧。

But our logic early on was like, yeah, let's do something like that in like five years.

就是说，先积累经验，专注于核心产品，把核心产品做好。

Like, let's get the reps in, let's stay focused on the core product, make the core product great.

我想说的是，如果你在想，哦，我想做长视频，又想每天实时更新，那会非常难，因为你的领域里会有人全职做长视频，也会有人全职做日更。

And I would say if you're thinking like, oh I want to do long form and I want to do real time daily, That's going be super hard because somebody else in your niche will do long form full time, and someone else in your niche will do daily full time.

不管你多有才华，我觉得如果你和一个每周花八十小时做某件事的人竞争，而你只投入四十小时，你很可能赢不了。

And no matter how talented you are, I think if you're competing with somebody who is spending eighty hours a week doing something and you give it forty, you're probably going to lose.

这确实很痛苦，但其中一部分就是做出选择和牺牲来专注，尤其是在短期内，当你的业务和团队还没发展到能同时做多件事的时候。

And that's like really painful, but part of it is like making the choice and the sacrifice to focus, especially focusing in the short term while you get your business to the point, while you get your team to the point where you can do multiple things.

但想同时做多件事，真的很难。

But doing multiple things is It's hard.

只有安德鲁·罗斯·索尔金真正做到了。

Only Andrew Ross Sorkin has done it really.

因为他每天在《Squawk Box》做直播，但每十年才出一本书，然后这本书又被改编成电影或电视剧。

Because he's live daily on Squawk Box, but he also publishes a book once a decade, and then it gets turned into a movie or a show.

对，我们当时和

Yeah, we were with

对他来说确实很难。

It's him really hard.

你是怎么做到的？我们问过他这个问题。

How do you Yeah, we asked him how do you do it?

他说，他是在上班路上做电视节目的。

And he said, I do TV on the way to work.

他凌晨四点起床，去演播室，做那个财经节目，播报市场开盘，然后到早上九点，剩下的时间就自由了。

So he wakes up at like 4AM, he goes to the studio, does, you know, squawk box, does the market open, and then by 9AM, rest of the day is free.

那太可怕了。

That's horrible.

但他之后还会写作什么的。所以，如果你能找到一个模式，每天早上六点到九点只做一种内容，然后剩下的时间都自由支配。

But then he's like writing and things And like so, if you could figure out some setup where you could just do one type of content from 6AM to 9AM, and then have the rest of your day free.

那就太好了。

Would be great.

早上好，有

Morning, have

但我觉得那不适合我。

a But I don't good think that's for me.

对。

Yeah.

不，他真让我们见识了这游戏的层次，因为我们当时还在说，哎呀，我们累死了。

No, he really showed us there's levels to this game because he we were like, oh, we're exhausted.

他却说，我是在上班路上做的。

He's like, do it on my way to work.

因为实际上，你可以把它当成热身。

Because actually, think of it as like a warm up.

那太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

四点？

Four?

品牌塑造和场景设计的差异化。

Branding, differentiation on set design.

每个人都有一个板条墙。

Everybody has a slat wall.

我们走了一条完全不同的路线，搞了一个工作室，我们叫它‘超级穹顶’。

We went a very different direction with a bunch of We got a studio with It's like We call it the Ultra Dome.

我们甚至把它包装成一个足球场，想着卖场馆冠名权，花了很多功夫打造一个在社交媒体片段上能脱颖而出的独特外观。

We even branded it a football stadium thinking about selling the rights to the stadium and put a lot of effort into creating a differentiated look that would pop out on social media clips.

这样你就能看到一些东西。

So you would see something.

这个想法很早就开始了。

This started very early.

我们早期的增长策略之一就是找话题聊，所以我们会评论新闻，回复别人在推特上的帖子，或者任何热点，把他们的推文打印出来，穿上西装，用4K摄像机在这个很简朴的木屋里拍摄，这个木屋看起来跟其他播客场景完全不一样。

One of our first growth hacks was we need things to talk about so we'd react to the news, we react to people's posts on Twitter or whatever was in the news, we print out their tweets, wear a suit, film it with a four ks camera in this very austere wooden room that didn't really look like any other podcast set.

然后我们会引用转发原帖作者的观点或新闻内容。

And then we would quote tweet the post of whoever originally posted the take or the news item.

然后我们会用那段视频去引用转发那条推文。

And we would quote tweet it with the video.

然后你就会收到通知。

And you would get a notification.

你会收到很多通知，比如10个人赞了你的帖子，1000个人赞了你的帖子。

You get a lot of notifications of 10 people liked your post, thousand people liked your post.

当某个内容开始病毒式传播时，这些数字到一定程度就都变成随机数字了。

It all just becomes random numbers at a certain point when something's going viral.

但如果有人用视频引用转发你的帖子，你就必须得看那个视频。

But if someone quote tweets your post with a video, you have to watch that video.

于是你就看了那个视频。

And so you watch the video

视频里是两个家伙

The video of two guys

两个穿西装的人，用4K画质，拿着打印出来的推文，你就会想，这是干嘛呢？

in Two guys in suits in four ks with the printed out tweet and you're like, why?

这可比转发和点赞高级多了，转发只要一秒，点赞只要半秒。

Like this is so much above just a repost which takes one second and a like that takes half a second.

所以这真的打造了一个品牌世界，把这种传统感带到了数字科技圈。

And so that really created this like brand world of this bringing this analog to the digital tech community.

我们都穿着西装。

We're wearing suits.

科技圈的人通常穿T恤。

Tech people normally wear t shirts.

为什么这些人穿西装？

Why are these guys in suits?

真奇怪。

That's weird.

但实际上，这对《财富》500强CEO来说反而更亲切，所以后来效果还不错。

But it's actually a more welcoming environment for a Fortune 500 CEO, so it wound up working out in the future.

然后还有很多其他类似的小品牌元素，都是通过Jordi Hays体现出来的。

And then there were a lot of other of these like little branding elements that came through Jordi Hays.

对，早期在视觉上，我们跟第一批赞助商谈的时候，我就跟他们说，我们正在打造一支一级方程式车队。

Yeah visually early on with our first sponsors I pitched them as we're building a Formula One team.

所以你们要赞助一整季，接下来十二个月都是你们的，合同锁定，完全绑定，你们跑不掉的。

So you're going to sponsor an entire season, you're sponsoring the next twelve months, locked in, fully contracted, you're not getting out of it.

技术上来说，你们也许可以不付钱，但你知道，这合同是很牢靠的。

Technically you could maybe not pay us, but you know, it's very solid.

然后我们就把你们的品牌铺得到处都是，对吧？

And then we're just going to put you everywhere, right?

所以我们一点都不怕。

So we weren't afraid.

很多科技圈的人都会做播客，但他们不接广告，因为他们觉得自己是厉害的投资人或创始人。

A lot of people in tech will have a podcast but they don't run ads because they're like, I'm a hotshot investor or a founder.

不需要这种低级的广告收入。

I don't need this sort of like lowly ad revenue.

我们反其道而行之，我超爱广告的。

We took the opposite approach, I love advertising.

我觉得吧，广告就像是互联网的经济引擎。

I think it's like, it's the economic engine of the internet.

这太棒了，它让优秀的产品可以免费使用。

It's amazing, it allows great products to be free.

所以我们真的在这方面下了功夫，围绕这种能量来打造节目的美学风格。

And so we really leaned into that and built the aesthetics of the show around with that kind of energy in mind.

于是我们做了赛车夹克，上面印满了所有赞助商的名字。

So we made racing jackets that had all of our sponsors.

我们把标志贴得到处都是，对吧？

We put logos everywhere, right?

现在我看到很多节目都在模仿我们的做法，我有点内疚，因为这让互联网变得有点丑了。

A lot of now I see more shows kind of following in our footsteps and I feel a little bit bad because it kind of makes the internet a little uglier.

但当时对广告商来说，就像是在说：嘿，你可以赞助一个播客，但只能得到一个中插广告，而且除非有人正好看到那个时刻，或者翻到简介里去找，否则根本看不出你的广告在内容里。

But at the time with advertisers, was like, hey you could go sponsor a podcast where you're gonna get one mid roll ad and there's going to be no evidence that your ad is in the content unless somebody sees that exact moment or they scroll into the description and look around for it.

所以我们就是抓住了这一点，结果它自己就形成了一个品牌。

And so we just really leaned into that and it created its own brand.

所以，把商业层面也当作内容的一部分来看待，我觉得很重要。

And so thinking about the business side as like really part of the content, I think is important.

这确实引起了广告商的共鸣，也给了我们底气去大大方方地宣传赞助商，而赞助商们当然喜欢这样，对吧？

And really resonated with advertisers and gave like permission to just be loud and proud about our sponsors, which our sponsors love, right?

我以前也和一些创作者合作过，对他们来说，广告就像是个不得不做的麻烦事。

And I've worked with creators in the past where advertising is like a necessary evil.

他们总是一副‘我真不想干这个，但没办法’的态度，对观众还带着歉意。

They're like, I wish I didn't have to do this, but I gotta do it, you know, being apologetic with their audience.

其实你的观众应该希望你做广告，这样你才有更多收入，才能做出更好的内容。

And your audience should want you to be selling advertisements so you have more revenue, so you can make better content.

所以我们干脆拥抱了这一点，把它变成了产品的一部分。

And so we just embraced that and made it part of the product.

很快地，我们能不能为Press Publish LA的所有赞助商鼓掌感谢一下？

Really quickly, can we give a round of applause for all the sponsors of Press Publish LA?

对，没错，他们……

Yeah, no it's They

让这一切成为可能。

make it possible.

谢谢，Gemini。

Thank you, Gemini.

杰夫，能把他们投到屏幕上吗？

Jeff, can we get them up on the screen?

对，有点乱。

Yeah, is a mess up.

看到Adobe了，你拿到了杀手级的玫瑰。

Saw Adobe, you got murderer's rose.

你没赞助这个。

You're not sponsoring this.

赶紧行动吧。

Get on it.

好的，第五个。

Yeah, number five.

准备好了吗？

Are we ready?

把它当成一场演出，而不是播客。

Treat it like a show, not a podcast.

播客其实是个很窄的框框。

Podcast is sort of a narrow box.

关键是要让大家明白它到底是什么。

It needs to be people have concepts of what it is.

一周一期访谈，每期只能请一个嘉宾，每集播客都是这样。但我觉得，一旦我们放开思路，把它当成一场演出、一场直播，那就可以灵活很多——可以请十个嘉宾，每人十分钟；也可以只请一个嘉宾聊两个小时，随我们高兴；甚至可以只有我们自己。

One interview a week, it can only be one guest per show, per podcast episode and I think once we opened our mind to it's a show, it's live, it can be 10 guests for ten minutes each, it can be one guest for two hours if we want, it can just be us.

我们试过没有嘉宾，也可以带着它到处跑，想怎么玩都行。

We've been no guests, we can take it on the road, we can do whatever we want with it.

这真的帮了大忙，也让我们有底气去借鉴电视和其他媒体产品的成功经验，不用再把自己局限在一个小框框里。这样一来，我们自己也成了一个不一样的产品。

That really helped and then also it gave us permission to pull best practices from television, pull best practices from other media products that didn't feel like we had to fit in a narrow box And then that also made us like a different product to

当你做一场演出时，你的心态就是表演者的心态。

advertise When for you're making a show, you're in the mindset of a performance.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这和做播客的心态很不一样，播客就是坐下来，打开麦克风，气氛很平静。

Which is I think quite different than the mentality of going into a podcast which is, alright, let's sit down, turn on the microphones, it's very calm.

但我和约翰在节目开始前一小时，会猛灌安德鲁·休伯曼的耶巴马黛茶，还狂吸尼古丁。

But John and I, in the hour leading up to the show, are like chugging Andrew Huberman's Yerba Mate's, like tons of nicotine.

我们把自己搞得特别亢奋。

We're getting like really really high energy.

我们每天都像打了鸡血一样。

We're Leaf Up All every single day.

我希望节目结束时自己累得不行，这样我就能回家睡觉，第二天再来一遍。

I want to be like exhausted when the show ends because I'm going go home and sleep and do it again the next day.

所以那种心态就是：你在做一档节目，这是一场表演，观众把时间交给你，你的任务就是娱乐他们。

And so that mentality of like, you're making a show, this is a performance, people are giving you their time, you need to like, you're there to entertain.

我们虽然像新闻源一样运作，但我们想成为最有趣的新闻源。

We function as like a news source, but we want to be the most entertaining news source.

我觉得这个把它当作节目来做的概念还有一个我很喜欢的地方，可能我们稍后会聊到，但我想调出一张图片，好像是拉布雷亚的。

I think another thing that I love about this concept of treating it like a show, and maybe this will come up a little later, but I want to pull up this image of, I think this is La Brea.

对。

Yeah.

你们在洛杉矶到处都贴了广告牌，对吧。

The billboards that you guys have up all over LA Yeah.

没错，就像那个——如果我们不赢，我们就完蛋了。

Right Like that If we don't win, we're fucked.

我开玩笑的。

I'm kidding.

那确实是

That is

把它当作节目来做的另一个体现。

another element of treating it like a show.

比如洛杉矶到处都有广告牌。

Like there's billboards all over LA.

是的。

Yeah.

为了你们的艾美奖评选。

For your Emmy consideration.

艾美奖宣传活动。

Emmy campaign.

对。

Yeah.

对，这也是另一种区分方式，就是，我们把自己定位成互动娱乐新闻，而不是一个播客。我们不想被归到播客类别里。

Yeah, and this was another way to, to differentiate is like, yeah, we're not a, you know, we view ourselves as like interactive, you know, an interactive entertainment news It's not a, we don't want to be in the podcast category.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我们一直保持着那种非常拼的心态。

And then with this too, it's like, we maintain the mentality the entire time of being super scrappy.

我们和一家公司合作，拿到了所有这些广告牌。

We partner with a company to get all of these billboards

免费的。

for free.

我们给他们的广告牌公司做了广告，他们

We did ads for their billboard company, they

就给了我们广告牌位。

gave us billboard ads.

有点奇怪。

Got, strange.

我觉得咱们还是感谢一下Press Publish的赞助商吧。对，把他们请回来。

I think let's just thank you sponsors of Press Publish Yeah, let's get them back

这交易真不错。以物易物的交易被低估了。

up It was a great barter deals are underrated.

我们的赞助商。

Of our sponsors.

对，想办法搞到10块甚至20块广告牌，我也不知道具体有多少块，而且一分钱没花，这就是保持那种精神。

Yeah, figuring out a way to get 10 or even 20 billboards, I don't know how many there are, with zero dollars out of our pocket is just like maintaining that mentality.