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现在大家的关注点已经从创作者的创意部分，转向了经济收益这一块。
The focus has shifted away from the creativity part of creator and shifted towards the economy part.
你没必要非得挤进某一条赛道。
You don't have to fit in a lane.
有成千上万条路可以走。
There's a million lanes.
如果你的路还没人走过，那就自己动手开一条出来。
And if your lane doesn't exist, just go ahead and start it.
如果你做这个只是为了赚钱、蹭流量，那我真懒得理你。
If you're in it because you wanna make money, you wanna get the views, like, fuck you.
我根本不在乎你。
I don't care about you.
自从我们开通这个频道起，就一直想做这一期节目。
So we've been wanting to make this episode ever since we started this channel.
没想到我们真能在Press Publish NYC的现场，面对观众直播完成，还突然把Casey Neistat请出来，让全场人都惊呆了，这简直像梦一样。
And the fact that we got to do it in front of our audience live at Press Publish NYC and surprise everyone in the room with Casey Neistat, that was kind of a dream come true.
说到我们作为创作者的职业道路，没有人比凯西·内伊斯塔更有影响力了。
When it comes to our career as creators, there is no one more influential than Casey Neistat.
在这次对话中，我们和凯西聊了聊他对如今所谓的创作者经济的看法。
So in this conversation, we talked to Casey about his perspective on what is now called the creator economy.
我们还聊到了他心目中自己有史以来最棒的一期Vlog，以及那期节目之所以出色的原因。
We also talk about what he considers to be his all time greatest episode of the vlog and what made it so great.
我们还聊到了他对好莱坞介入创作者领域这一现象的看法，比如像Mr.
We also talk about his perspective on the world of Hollywood getting involved with creators like Mr.
太猛了。
Beast.
最后，我们聊到了第一次见Casey的情景，那绝对是我们这辈子最尴尬、最让人脚趾抠地的经历。
And lastly, we touch on the first time we ever met Casey, which was one of the most awkward and cringeworthy encounters of our lives.
从那以后，我们几乎每天都在回想那件事。
We've thought about it pretty much every single day since it happened.
这次终于能在台上把这事说开，说实话，感觉还挺解压的。
And we finally got to talk it out live on stage, which is actually kind of like just this nice cathartic experience.
感觉终于放下了。
Felt like closure.
这次Press Publish NYC能够举办，要感谢几位赞助商，他们在我们办活动之前就认可了我们的理念。
Now Press Publish NYC was made possible by a few sponsors who really saw our vision before we put on this event.
其中一位是我们长期的合作伙伴，Adobe。
And one of those is a longtime partner of ours, Adobe.
他们也是本集节目的赞助商。
They're also the sponsor of this episode.
我稍后会在对话中详细说说。
I'll tell you more about that later in the conversation.
Casey，你这段时间去哪儿了？
Casey, where have you been?
在聊这个之前，我
You know, before we get into that, I
有个问题。
have a question.
我之所以是突然宣布的，是因为你觉得我不会来吗？
Is the reason why I was a surprise announcement because you didn't think I was going to show up?
当然了。
Absolutely.
对。
Yes.
百分百。
100%.
没错。
Yeah.
休息时间本来会更长的。
Break would have been longer.
我们本来也没确定你到底会不会出现。
It was going to be a surprise to us whether you showed up.
明白了。
Okay.
对我们来说，这确实是个意外。
It was mostly a surprise to us.
我确实这么做了，这是真的。
I did that is a real thing.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
但你真的准时到了。
But you were really on time.
特别准时。
Was super on time.
特别准时。
Super on time.
我不太擅长安排时间。
I'm not great with scheduling.
我太高兴能来这里了。
I couldn't be happier to be here.
见到你们真好。
Great to see you all.
好吧，
Okay,
回到我刚才的问题。
back to my question.
嗯，
Okay.
你最近在忙什么？
What have you been up to?
我也不知道。
I have no idea.
这些年都去哪儿了？
Where have the years gone?
你有多深啊？
How deep you are?
我们该怎么在这里定位呢？
How should we just right here?
你们来决定一下我们有多深吧
You guys vote on how deep we
多深，多深。
How deep, how deep.
特别深。
Really deep.
非常深。
Very deep.
好吧。
All right.
好的。
Okay.
这真是一场深刻又有意义的治疗对话。
This is a deep, meaningful therapy session here.
因为我昨天刚跟朋友聊过这个话题。
Because I was just having this conversation with a friend yesterday.
我觉得我拍过一部关于这个的电影，咱们直接看片就行，省得我在这儿费劲解释了。
I think I made a movie about this, which we could just watch instead of me having to explain.
不过，你知道的，我儿子刚出生的时候，我小时候家里特别穷。
But, you know, when my son was born, when I was a kid, we had like no money.
那段日子真的挺难熬的。
It was a really tough go of it.
我老幻想以后有了孩子，自己会怎么带他们。
I fantasized about what I would do when I had kids again later in life.
我在脑子里勾勒出一幅那样的画面。
And I painted this like portrait of what that would be.
后来靠着一番打拼，加上大部分是运气，我才真的做到了。
And then by hard work and all that shit, mostly luck, I like got that.
我女儿出生的时候，正好实现了那个目标。
I achieved like that thing right when my daughters were born.
那时候我刚把Beam卖了。
Like I had just sold Beam.
还有那个YouTube的事儿也赶上了。
I had like the YouTube thing.
一大堆事情全撞一块儿了，结果我就突然有了两个小女儿。
Like all this shit happened, and I found myself in this position that I had these two little girls.
后来因为YouTube上的名气，我真有点吓着了。
And then I got really spooked because of YouTube fame.
我当时就想，算了，这破事儿不干了。
And I was like, you know, like fuck this.
我决定躲起来，专心陪孩子一段时间。
Let me just go away, and hang out with my kids for a while.
那都是七年前的事了。
And that was like seven years ago.
这事儿特别棒，真的很珍贵，但同时也有点太放纵了。
And it's like a really amazing, awesome, special thing, but it's also like really indulgent.
我觉得我可能就像那种情况——你爸抓到你在地下室抽烟，然后逼你把整条烟都抽完。
And I think I might be like, you know when your dad catches you smoking in the basement and he makes you smoke the entire carton of cigarettes?
我得赶紧回去工作了，再这么下去，我都快把故事讲乱了。
I think I might need to get back to work soon because I'm starting to lose the story a little bit.
所以你是把整条烟都抽完了。
So you smoked the entire carton of cigarettes.
这放松的日子简直太棒了。
It's been fucking fantastic.
就是好好歇一歇。
Of relaxation.
就是给自己放个假。
Of taking a break.
当个爸爸。
Of being a dad.
是的
Yeah.
就是花时间和我孩子在一起。
Of like spending time with my kids.
我今年44岁，我爸73岁，刚退休。
Like, I don't know, I'm 44 and my dad's 73 and he just retired.
五年前，我回头看自己的生活，心想：我现在就有能力不退休，而是提前享受大多数人要到很晚才能拥有的生活片段。
And I was like, you know, five years ago, I looked at my life and I was like, I'm in a position to not retire, but to like take a piece of life that most people don't get the opportunity to do until much later.
不如我现在就提前支取这份生活，马上开始。
Let me just like take a cash advance on that and do it right now.
是的
Yeah.
这正是我这段时间在做的事。
And that's what it's been.
过得特别好。
It's been great.
我觉得自己是这个世界上最有福气的人，能有这么一次机会。
Like, I think I'm like the luckiest human being in the world to have had that opportunity.
是的。
Yeah.
我想问问你对当下创作者经济的看法。
I want to ask you about your perspective on the creator economy now.
因为我看你拍日常vlog的时候，你简直就是创作者经济的核心。
Because when I was watching you during the daily vlogs, to me, you were the heart and center of the creator economy.
你是最为自豪的那位创作者。
You were the proudest of creators.
你把其他创作者都放进自己的视频里，帮他们扩大影响力。
You were putting them in your vlogs, amplifying them.
你为这种全新的媒体形式感到骄傲。
You were proud of the format of this new version of media.
这给了我和Smir很大的启发，也激励了很多人。
And I think that was inspiring to Smir and I, it was inspiring to a lot of people.
然后就像你说的，你稍微退出了。
And then like you said, you kind of stepped away.
然后创作者经济就自己跑起来了，而且朝着某个方向发展了。
And the creator economy has has sort of run and it's gone in a direction.
我挺好奇的，毕竟你发得没那么勤了，也没那么深入参与其中，你现在是怎么看的？好的方面和不好的方面，你觉得现在的情况怎么样？
I'd be curious outside, you know, having not posted as much frequently and not being in it as much, what's your perspective, both the good and the bad, of where we're at now?
首先，我对“创作者经济”这个说法本身就有意见。
Well, I resent your usage of the term creator economy to begin with.
我一直很擅长做生意，这对我来说一直是个重点。
I've always been good at business, I've always like, it's always been a major priority of mine.
但我一直把创作者和这个经济体系分得很清楚。
But I always had a real distinction between creator and economy.
我主持《每日秀》的时候，只要看到有趣的人，不管是大网红还是小博主，我都想请他们来我的频道，因为我觉得他们很棒，想把他们介绍给全世界。
And I was doing The Daily Show and I was like, anytime I saw someone interesting, no matter how big of a creator or how small of a creator they were, I wanted them to like come on my channel so I could tell the world about them because they're awesome.
但这跟那个经济体系没关系。
But it was never the economy part.
所以我对此有些看法，不过当时我的了解还不够深入，因为那时候我对YouTube的创意部分简直兴奋到了极点。
So I have a take on that, but it was less informed then, because then it was like, I couldn't have been more excited about the creative aspect of YouTube.
可能简单说一下吧，这个故事我好像这辈子都讲过无数遍了。我一开始是在主流电影和好莱坞工作，制作过萨夫迪兄弟的前两部片子，还在HBO有过自己的节目，也接拍过传统的电视广告。
And maybe to give like an abbreviated, I feel like I've told this story a million times in my life, but I started working in sort of mainstream movies and Hollywood, and I produced the Safdie brothers' first two movies, and I had a show on HBO, and I worked directing traditional TV commercials.
我经历过那一整套流程，真的糟透了。
I did that whole thing, and it fucking sucked.
后来我发现了YouTube，我就觉得，这是一个创作和观众之间没有隔阂的地方。
And then I found YouTube, and I was like, this is a place where there's no distance between the work that I want to make in the audience.
它被捧成了最完美、最了不起的事情。
Like it's the most virtuous, amazing thing ever.
我当时特别兴奋，但纯粹是从创意角度出发的。
And I got really excited, but purely from like a creativity perspective.
我觉得我当时做每日Vlog就是想达到的效果。
And I feel like that's what I was trying to do with my daily vlog.
让我兴奋的创作者，正是因为他们这一点让我兴奋。
The creators I get excited by, that's why I get excited about them.
我觉得过去十年，从2015年到2025年，创作者的重点已经从创意本身转向了经济收益。
And I feel like in the last decade, like 2015, 2025, I feel like the priority, the focus has shifted away from the creativity part of creator and shifted towards the economy part of creator.
这真让我心碎。
And it breaks my fucking heart.
我特别难过。
It makes me so sad.
我明白这背后的原因。
I understand it.
那些能靠这个赚钱、养活自己的人，我由衷为他们高兴。
And I celebrate those who are able to make money, make a living off of it.
这真的很了不起，因为做到这一点太难了。
It's an incredible success because that's really hard to do.
但艺术和商业之间是有区别的——我不是想装高深，而是真的想说清楚这一点。
But there's a difference between art, not to use it like be pretentious, but the art of it, and then the economy of it.
我觉得现在很多人放弃了创作的本质，全身心扑在做生意上了。
And I feel like there's been a lot of surrendering of the art of it and zeroing in on the business of it.
但我觉得，把视频发布到YouTube这样的平台，本质上就像玩电子游戏一样。
But I think that's like the inherent nature of publishing video to a platform like YouTube, where it's almost like a video game.
你的银行账户和YouTube频道，不都是屏幕上跳动的数字吗？一会儿涨，一会儿跌。
Both like your bank account and your YouTube channel are numbers on a screen that go up or down, right?
按你刚才说的，你应该是被命运吓到了吧。
And I would assume, like you said, you got spooked by fate.
我也觉得，数字在屏幕上不断上涨，这种感觉肯定像上瘾一样，你认同吗？
I would also assume, and you tell me, if there's like a little bit of a, there's obviously a drug to the numbers going up on the screen.
所以我想问问在场的创作者，还有所有在YouTube上做内容的人，从你们的经历来看，面对这些起起落落的数字，最该警惕的是什么？
So I guess to the creators in the room, and to like the creators on YouTube, what is the cautionary tale, or what is the caution of that drug from your experience of the numbers going up and down
在这次通话里吗？
on this call?
我也不太确定。
I don't know.
不过我对这件事的态度一直很明确。
I mean, I'm pretty hard lined about it.
这样吧，我再补充点背景。
You know what, let me just give a little bit more context.
我刚才说的情况，在YouTube上并不是个例。
It's not unique what I just described to YouTube.
确实是这样。
Yeah.
我觉得70年代的电影就是个很好的例子。对我来说，那是电影业的黄金时代，因为当时制片厂根本不知道什么样的电影才算成功。
Like I think a really good example of that is like cinema in the 1970s was for me like peak cinema because the studios didn't know what a successful movie was.
那时候他们拍各种各样的电影，比如《哈洛与慕德》。
They were just making all kinds of movies like Harold and Maude.
像那种放在今天根本不可能拍出来的电影。
And these like movies that could never be made today.
而且历史上最伟大的电影里，有不少就是那时候诞生的。
And some of the greatest cinema in history was made.
其中一些在五十年前其实票房也很成功。
And some of them were really financially successful fifty years ago.
现在我们有Netflix，他们拥有所有数据。
And now we have Netflix, which has all of the data.
Netflix就是电影界的野兽先生。
Netflix is the Mr.
电影界的野兽先生。
Beast of cinema.
他们想知道，人们到底想看什么？
And they'd like, what do people want to say?
他们想要动作场面，想要这个，想要那个。
They want action, they want this, start that.
结果做出来的东西简直是一团糟。
And they're just putting out like, it's shit.
所以这可不是YouTube独有的现象。
So this is not unique to YouTube.
这就是当你能接触到背后的数据时，艺术所面临的处境。
It is just like this is what happens to art when they're when you have access to the data behind it.
所以我觉得这是创作者的问题。
So I fault creators for that.
我不怪行业。
I don't fault the industry.
这其实是很自然的事情。
This is just this is a very natural thing.
对吧。
Right.
我一直觉得，让我兴奋、让我充满热情的，永远是创作本身。而商业运作则是在另一个世界里进行的。
I just have always fallen the thing that gets me excited, that I'm passionate about is always the creative, And the business lives in a different world.
对了，你刚才问的是什么问题来着？
Now, what was your question?
我
I
觉得那差不多就是你想问的问题了。
think that was kind of the question.
我觉得不是这样。
I don't think it was.
我只是问你最近在忙什么。
I think I just asked you what you've up to.
就这事儿。
That's it.
不，不是这样的。
No, no, no.
你问了一个具体的问题，我说，让我先给你些背景。
You asked a specific question, I said, Let me give you context.
只是提醒一下，就是说，怎么去
Just the cautionary So the Like, how do
你
you
解释清楚呢？
rationalize?
因为就连我，刚入行的时候也想着，我要当个电影人。
Because even for me, when I first got into this, was like, I want to be a filmmaker.
但自然而然发生的，是你开始寻求认可。
But what naturally happens is you search for validation.
而在我们这个行业，认可就是靠播放量和收入来衡量的。
And validation in our world comes from views and money.
你一边想保持自己作为艺术家或创作者的身份，
And you're trying to navigate yourself as an artist or as a creative.
一边有人开始付钱让你做某样东西，你就会想，看来这就是我该做的。
And immediately these people are paying you for something and you're like, I guess that's the thing I should do.
或者很多人在看某个东西，你就会觉得，看来这就是我该做的。
Or these people are watching something, I guess that's the thing I should do.
等这些热度一降，你又会想，哦，看来这东西我不该做。
And then when that dips, you're like, Oh, I guess that's the thing I shouldn't do.
对吧？
Right?
你一直在努力摸索自己的方向。
And you're trying to navigate yourself.
我只是好奇，你有没有过那种感觉。
And I'm just curious if you've experienced that feeling.
当然有。
Of course.
对此我有一个比较极端的看法，但因为我过得还不错，所以不太愿意公开表达。
And I have a hard line take on it that I'm reluctant to really represent because I am successful.
我也赚过钱。
I have made money.
在财务方面，这些经历我都经历过，所以我说话很有底气。
I have financial like I've done all these things, so it's easy for me to say.
确实。
Yeah.
但有一条底线我必须说清楚：如果你做这一切只是为了赚钱、为了刷播放量，那我根本不在乎你。
But that hard line thing is like, if you're in it because you want to make money, you want to get the views, like fuck yeah, I don't care about you.
没错。
Right.
确实有适合你的地方，你也许能在那个圈子里成功，但我根本不关心。
Like there's a place for you, and you might be able to find success in that world, but I don't care.
你去找别人聊这个吧，我对这些完全没兴趣。
Get someone else to talk about that because I don't give a shit about that.
这些对我来说太无聊了。
That is so uninteresting for me.
这些事根本激不起我的兴趣。
Like, none of that excites me.
让我兴奋的创作者，是那些因为热爱而创作的人。
The creators that excite me are people who make something because they love making it.
往往那些因为热爱才创作的人，和成功之间是有联系的。
And there's often a connection between people who make stuff because they love making it, and success.
但他们的成就通常赶不上那些只为赢的人。
It's usually not as successful as the people who are just there to win.
对。
Right.
一个很好的例子就是奥斯卡奖已经有八九十年历史了。
A great example of this is the Academy Awards are like 80 or 90 years old.
我以前记得确切数字，19年，不对，是九十年了。
I used to know the exact number, 19 yeah, 90 years old.
在奥斯卡的历史上，同年票房最高的电影同时拿到最佳影片的，总共就发生过两次。
And in the history of the Academy Awards, the amount of movies that were the highest grossing movie of the year that also won Best Picture, it's happened like twice.
比如《指环王：王者归来》，另一个我一时想不起来了。
Like Return of the King, and I can't remember the other one.
这说明，艺术上最受推崇的电影，97%的时间都不是赚钱最多的那些。
Which means the movies that artistically were the most celebrated were 97 of the time not the ones that made the most money.
我特别喜欢那些最受赞誉的电影。
And I love the movies that were most celebrated.
我喜欢真正好的艺术，喜欢有创意的作品。
Like I love good art and good creativity.
所以你问的那个警示故事，到底是什么？
So your question about like, what's the cautionary tale?
我觉得关键是要诚实地问自己，你为什么要投身这件事。
I think it's like, be honest with yourself about why you're getting into it.
我之所以这么崇拜吉米·唐纳森，甚至可以说是头号MrBeast粉丝，就是因为他的目标特别清晰。
The reason why I'm such a huge fan of Jimmy Donaldson, like I'm the biggest MrBeast fan, is because of the clarity of his purpose.
没错。
Yeah.
我从吉米刚在YouTube起步时就认识他了。
Jimmy, like I've known Jimmy since he started on YouTube.
我们见面的时候，他还不是MrBeast。
When we met before he was Mr.
他从来没跟我提过：‘我怎么才能成为伟大的电影人？’
Beast, he never said to me like, How can I be a great filmmaker?
他只想讲出最好的故事。
I want to tell the best stories.
对。
Yeah.
我想创作艺术。
I want to make art.
他从来没跟我这么说过。
He never said that to me.
他来找我的时候就说，我就想要最多的播放量。
He came to me and he like, I want the most fucking views.
我当时就觉得，你这目标真明确。
And I was like, I like your focus, man.
你这目标真明确。
I like your focus.
对。
Yeah.
我当时还说，你这态度真到位。
I was like adverb that.
我当时
I was
觉得，这一直延续到了今天。
like That's consistent to today.
对。
Yeah.
我就想，我也不知道咋回事，兄弟。
I was like, I don't I don't know, bro.
对，就是这样。
Like Yeah.
我也不太清楚。
I don't know.
比如，试试这个。
Like, try this.
找十个人站在一个红圈里。
Get 10 people to stand in a red circle.
我就是开个玩笑。
I'm just kidding.
那可不是我的主意。
That was not my idea.
但说真的，这就是我佩服吉米的地方。
But like, that's what I respect about Jimmy.
克莱。
Clay.
因为吉米从来不说自己是什么大人物，他就是做他自己。
Because Jimmy has never claimed to be anything but exactly what he is.
而他在那个圈子里的成功，是前无古人的。
And he's succeeded in that world beyond anyone that's come before him.
没错。
Right.
我真的很佩服他这一点。
And I have tremendous admiration for that.
就是这种混淆。
It's the conflation.
人们总说他们想做艺术，在乎创意，可实际上他们只关心那条蓝线。
It's when people, you know, they say they want to be art or they care They say they care about the creativity, but all that matters to them is that blue line.
是的。
Yeah.
我根本没有那个看数据统计的App叫什么来着。
I don't have I don't know what to I don't have what's the app called where you see your stats?
YouTube Studio。
YouTube Studio.
我没装那个App。
I don't have that app.
这心态真健康。
That's so healthy.
没错，这是个明智的选择。
Yeah, it's a good decision.
是的
Yeah.
是的，这让我的生活好太多了
Yeah, it's made my life so much better.
是的
Yeah.
但说实话，我说这话很容易
But again, it's really easy for me to say.
没错
Right.
我真的很容易说
It's really fucking easy for
我这么说当然容易
me to say.
你对自己如何商业化你的艺术有什么原则吗？
Do you have any rules for yourself around how you commercialize your art?
因为我回顾以前和你一起拍 vlog 的时候，你那个梅赛德斯 CLA 的项目是我有史以来最喜欢的系列之一。
Because when I look back pre vlog with you, one of my favorite series ever was your Mercedes CLA project.
你当时做了四个独立的视频，讲你是怎么给梅赛德斯做广告的。
Where you made four separate videos about making an ad for Mercedes.
那对我们俩启发特别大。
And that inspired Samir and I a lot.
所以后来我们一有机会跟品牌合作，一开始就会提议说，我们可以给你做一个四集的系列，或者两集的系列。
And whenever we would get the opportunity to work with a brand very early on, we would just say, we'll make you a four part series, a two part series.
我们会专门做一期内容来讲这个。
We'll make a whole thing about this.
我们会专门做一档节目。
We'll make a whole show.
不过现在情况变了。
And then that kind of shifted now.
大家其实都不怎么想要那种东西了。
People don't even really want that.
他们就希望你随便提一提，自然地融入进去。
They just want you to kind of like talk about it and integrate it.
但我很好奇，你是怎么在保持自己风格的同时，把这事做成商业化的？
But I'd be curious how you look at like, how do you commercialize it and still keep to your taste?
你因为这个遇到过麻烦吗？
You say you got any trouble for that?
我可真是麻烦不断。
I had so much trouble for that.
我说我不能。
I said, I can't
不能提这事？
talk about it.
你不能提？
You can't talk about it?
但我还是做了。
But I did.
最后吧，本来梅赛德斯那个项目是打算砸七位数做广告投放的。
In the end, like, there was supposed to be like a 7 figure ad buy behind the Mercedes campaign.
结果到最后，他们倒是同意你发布内容，但因为内部政治斗争之类的，整个广告投放都被砍掉了。
And in the end, they're like, you can publish it, and they killed the entire ad buy because of like internal politics and stuff.
不过我们分手还是很体面的。
We left on good terms.
好，顺便提一句。
Okay, parenthetical to that.
奔驰那事儿黄了，倒不是因为这点原因。他们给我的那辆CLA是台原型车，本来是要拉到纽约车展展出的。
This was not why things went south of the Mercedes deal, But the CLA they gave me was a preproduction one that was meant to be pushed onto the floor of like New York City Auto Show.
他们手里根本没有成品车。
Like they didn't have a finished one.
那车完全是手工拼凑的，连悬挂都没有，车门缝隙大得离谱，各种毛病一堆。
This thing was like put together by hand, had no suspension, like the door gaps really wide and stuff.
他们把它用平板拖车借给我，我拉到博纳维尔盐滩去排练，当时以90英里的时速做360度漂移，结果把车给撞报废了。
And they like loaned it to me on the back of a flatbed truck, and I brought it out to the Bonneville Salt Flats, and was doing 360s at 90 miles during an rehearsal, and we totaled it.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
我们得把它弄到卡车后面，然后盖起来。
And we had to put it on the back of the truck and cover it.
奔驰那边就一个意思，盖起来。
All Mercedes was like, Cover it.
绝对不能让人拍到。
Do not let anyone photograph it.
这是我的错。
That was my bad.
他们对此还挺大度的。
And they were chill about that.
跟奔驰合作真的很棒。
Mercedes was they were incredible to work with.
只是最后有些内部政治斗争导致合作黄了，挺让人遗憾的。
There was just some political shit at the end that made that go south, was a real bummer.
但你问我是怎么应对的，我觉得这确实挺难的。
But your question about how do I navigate it, I think it's challenging.
我想说一件特别棒又很有意义的事，就是现在在座的每一位创作者都能受益于这一点：当年我做梅赛德斯的广告，或者我和马克斯为耐克做‘Make Account’的时候，想做这类项目，你得先说服客户。
I will say one thing that's awesome and virtuous and that all the creators in this room get the benefit from is that when I made the Mercedes campaign, it was 2012, or when Max and I made Make Account for Nike, Before we got to do those sorts of campaigns, you had to first convince the client.
你得说服耐克。
You had to convince Nike.
你得说服梅赛德斯，让他们相信这个点子值得做。
You had to convince Mercedes that this was a good idea.
得让他们相信，网上有人会在意他们的车、他们的运动鞋，或者他们的发光手环。
That anyone on YouTube might give a shit about their car, their sneakers, or their light up wristband.
那时候最难的就是这个。
And that was the hardest part.
但现在，这已经成了共识。
And now that is just understood.
我经纪人就跟我说过，YouTube 现在是电视平台上最重要的渠道。
Like my agent said to me, YouTube is the most important platform on television.
毫无疑问，你们所有人都在广告营销的经济体系中扮演着重要角色。
Like there's no doubting the role that all of you play in the economy of advertising marketing.
这真的是一件非常了不起的事情。
And that's an incredible thing.
能亲眼见证这一切发生，真的让人觉得很不可思议。
Like to have seen that happen is a really amazing thing.
对我来说，这挺难的，因为我毕竟还得靠这个谋生。
For me, it's tough because like I still do need to make some living.
比如我的收入。
Like I income.
而且，虽然我现在发的内容没那么多了，播放量可能也没以前高，但曝光的价值一直在涨。
And the value, even though I don't post as much and I probably don't get as many views, the value of reach just keeps going up.
所以，哪怕我夏天花四个月陪孩子玩沙子，热度有所下降，YouTube 的曝光价值却还在持续上升。
So even though like my relevance, as I spend four months in the summer playing with my kids in the sand, goes down, the value of YouTube reach continues to go up.
因此，我依然能接到很多很有意义的合作机会。
So I still get really meaningful opportunities.
这对我来说挺有挑战的，因为我产出的内容不多。
And it's challenging for me because I don't put out a lot of work.
所以只要我跟品牌合作，我就一定要确保双方理念高度契合。
So if I'm doing something with the brand, I want to make sure there's really good alignment.
每次遇到那些只想让我念个标准广告词的品牌合作，我都没能真正做好。
And every time I've done deals with brands that just want like a standard ad read, I've never really landed the plane.
总觉得特别别扭。
Like it's always felt kind of fucked.
我觉得，真正坦诚的做法是，停下来直接说：‘这个视频由……赞助。’
I think there's something super honest about doing a brand read, like pause and be like, this video is sponsored by it.
我觉得这种做法特别棒，看到有创作者这么做，我真想冲着屏幕给他们击个掌，为他们拿到这样的品牌合作感到骄傲。
Think that's a totally cool transact When I see creators do that, I want to high five the screen, because I'm proud of them for getting that brand deal.
是的。
Yeah.
他们做到了。
They did it.
他们拿到了报酬。
They got paid.
这本身就是一种认可。
Like that's a validation.
从创意角度来说，真的很有挑战性。
Creatively, it's really challenging.
是的。
Yeah.
现在大多数品牌更看重影响力，而不是创意。
And right now, brands value, almost always, brands value the reach more than the creativity.
当年我和马克斯合作耐克时，根本没什么曝光量。
When Max and I did Nike, there was no reach.
他们只看重创意。
They only valued the creativity.
奔驰也是只看重创意。
Mercedes only valued the creativity.
没错。
That's right.
真的如此，我还记得第一次接到品牌合作时，我的经纪人打电话告诉我，这是一笔不小的金额。
And that's real I remember the first time I got a brand deal, my agent called me and it was a significant dollar deal.
我当时就问，那创意呢？
And I was like, what's the creative?
她回答说，不用，他们只是要你念一段三十秒的广告词。
And she was like, no, they just want you to do a thirty second read.
我愣住了，你说什么？
And I was like, want me to do what now?
是的。
Yeah.
她说他们只要求这个，我当时真的很难过。
She's like, they just want you to and I was like, my feelings were so hurt.
我觉得他们喜欢的只是我的粉丝数量。
I was like, they only like me for my followers.
她就说，他们真的就只看重你的粉丝数量。
And she's like, they literally only like because of your followers.
把钱拿了就行。
Take the money.
对，这挺有意思的，因为这种形式其实是从广播里借鉴来的。
Yeah, yeah it's interesting because that's kind of a format that was borrowed from the radio.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
就像节目播到一半，插播一段广告，念一下赞助商的名字。
Like it's like in the middle of the programming you break and you say who the sponsor is.
说到这个，过去六个月，YouTube 是智能电视上观看量最高的应用，这简直让人难以置信。
But on that note, YouTube has been the most watched app on connected TVs for the past six months, which is honestly insane.
比迪士尼、奈飞、Hulu 加起来都多。
That like more than Disney, more than Netflix, more than Hulu.
所以在这个大家都在同一个屏幕上竞争的时代，你觉得最有趣的是什么？
So in this world where like we're all competing on the same screen now, what do you find interesting?
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你觉得现在什么有意思？
What do you think is interesting today?
你自己对什么感兴趣？
What are you interested in for yourself?
屏幕上有什么东西吸引了你的注意？
What's capturing your attention on the screens?
我想不起他叫什么名字了。
I can't remember his name.
我查一下，好知道他叫什么。
I'll look it up so I can say his name.
马克·费尔顿。
Mark Felton.
他是我最喜欢的YouTube博主。
He's my favorite YouTuber.
他做的是什么内容？
What does he make?
Mark Felton Productions。
Mark Felton Productions.
他就像个上了年纪的英国大叔，做YouTube视频的技术 really 不太行。
He's like some middle aged, older British dude who's really not good at making YouTube videos.
他大概每周发两期视频，我看着他的频道慢慢火起来的。
And he puts out like two videos a week, and I've watched him blow up.
他主要讲些什么内容？
What is he talking about?
他专门挑二战里那些特别冷门、不为人知的细节来讲。他是历史学家，所以这活儿他干得特别合适。你知道 Mark Felton Productions 吗？
He picks out hyperexoteric aspects of World War He's a historian, so they're perfectly his Do you know Mark Felton Productions?
你疯了吧？
Are you fucking crazy?
我从来没见过有人
I've never met someone
居然知道 Mark Felton Productions。
who knows Mark Felton Productions.
哥们，太荣幸认识你了。
Dude, this is room to meet you.
而且我挺喜欢它的。
And it like it
它有个开场白，就像他说：你好。
has this intro, it's like He's like, hello.
今天在本期马克·费尔顿制作中，我们将讨论那把改变了战争面貌的手枪，时间跨度从9月4日到1941年9月19日。
Today on Mark Felton Productions, we will discuss the handgun that changed the face of war from September 4 till 09/19/1941.
而且视频才十二分钟。
And it's twelve minutes.
我看得特别入迷。
I'm like, fascinated.
他都有两百万粉丝了。
And he's like 2,000,000 subscribers.
太厉害了。
That's amazing.
他的视频都是经典内容，经得起时间考验。
His videos are all evergreen.
对我来说，这说明我的兴趣点非常垂直、小众。
And for me, it's like, it's indicative of the fact that like, I'm interested in something very narrow.
确实是这样。
Yeah.
而且你看现在，五年前或者十年前，创作者们还都是些年轻帅气、或者长得好看的人，坐在床边说‘嘿，大家好’。
And there's this guy, and if five years ago or ten years ago when like creators were like young, handsome people sitting on the or pretty people sitting on the edge of their beds saying, Hey, guys.
一个成年历史学家居然能在YouTube上找到这样的受众，这想法简直太荒谬了，但他却取得了巨大的成功。
The idea that this adult historian was going to be able to find an audience like this on YouTube is preposterous, and he's wildly successful.
所以这就是让我对这个平台感到兴奋的地方。
So like that's what excites me about the platform.
那它到底是什么呢？
It's that what is it?
是不是 niche 市场很丰富？
Niches rich?
像这些非常细分的领域，现在都能跟观众建立起联系。
Like these really narrow subjects are now connecting with their audiences.
当观众群体从YouTube这个有点怪异的平台，扩展到全世界的时候，是的。
And when the audience went from being YouTube, this weird platform, to being the world Yeah.
你的小众内容就能触达它所有的受众。
Your narrow thing will reach its whole audience.
我觉得最近像VidCon这样的会议最能说明这一点。回想当年，当VidCon最火爆的时候，你在里面走一圈，简直就像疯了一样。
I think we've seen that the most recently at conferences like a VidCon, where back in the day when there was like the height of beam, when you would run through VidCon, it was like madness.
比如Logan跑过喷泉那个视频，对吧？
When Logan ran through the fountain, right?
那时候大家就很清楚，谁才是这个平台上的明星，谁是最顶尖、最头部的那些创作者。
There was like clarity on these are the celebrities of the platform, these are the most, the biggest creators on the platform.
你现在去VidCon看看。
You go to VidCon now.
你随便碰到个人，人家就跟你说，哦，我是你的铁粉。
You meet someone, they're like, oh, I'm a big fan.
你就会说，哦，挺酷的。
You're like, oh, cool.
你平时做什么？
What do you do?
然后你一查，发现他在TikTok上有一千九百万粉丝。
And you look them up, have 19,000,000 followers on TikTok.
现在名声变得特别分散，对吧？
And there's a fragmentation of fame now, right?
每个人好像都成了创作者。
Where it's kind of like everybody's a creator.
每个人都有自己的专长，也都有一群粉丝，不管规模大小。
Everybody has a thing, everybody has an audience in some way, shape, or form.
这真是个特别有意思的新现象。
So it's a really interesting new phenomenon in this.
在这间屋子里，很可能就有粉丝数上千万的人。
Probably in this room, there's people with like 10,000,000 subscribers, right?
那边的乔丹·马特有三千万粉丝，你环顾整个房间，会发现现在每个人都有自己的受众，这真的很有趣。
You have Jordan Matter back there, he's got 30,000,000 You're going to look through this room and be like, wow, everybody at this point has an audience, which is fascinating.
努瑟有多少订阅者？
How many subscribers does Nusser have?
那个该死的努瑟。
You know, this fucking guy Nusser.
他居然以为我是他的订阅者。
He thinks that I'm he's a subscriber.
你来听我演讲，却在后面低头玩手机。
You show up at my talk and you're looking at your fucking phone back there.
好吧。
Okay.
能见到你真好。
It's good to see.
你看起来状态不错。
You look great.
我觉得这太不可思议了。
I think it's incredible.
对啊。
Yeah.
我以前挺不认同的，因为刚在YouTube上起步的时候，是平台自己挑创作者的。
I used to take issue with it because when I was getting started on YouTube, YouTube handpicked who the creators were.
你还记得吗？他们还把那些人放上广告牌呢。
Remember they put them on billboards Yeah.
那时候感觉YouTube是想亲自定义什么才算真正的创作者。
And And it felt then that YouTube really wanted to take a role in defining what it meant to be a creator.
结果PewDiePie把这一切全给搅黄了。
And then PewDiePie fucked the whole thing.
彻底毁了整个模式。
Destroyed the whole thing.
我其实并不清楚内情，因为我从来没跟他们的高层聊过这事。
And I don't know this because I never spoke to them at a leadership level about this.
但从远处看，他们似乎是故意决定退出这种角色。
But what it seems like from afar is they made a deliberate decision to step back from that.
别再挑谁是赢家了。
Like, let's not pick who the winners are.
别再决定谁来定义这个平台了。
Let's not pick who defines this platform.
就让它变成一个普通的平台吧。
Let's just make it the generic platform.
我记得在2010年代后期，当我感受到这种转变时，几乎感到失望。
And I remember when I felt that pullback in the late twenty ten's, I was almost disappointed.
心想，哦，他们再也不关心创意了。
So was like, Oh, they don't care about creativity anymore.
而后来发生的事，很大程度上归功于尼尔的领导，我觉得这真是了不起，平台终于变得公平了。
And what came out of that, and this is largely Neil's leadership, and I think it's an incredible thing, is it just sort of leveled the playing field.
是的。
Yeah.
因为只要上面的人一直在说，这就是创意，或者这就是创作者的定义，那那些不符合这个标准的人就会觉得，这个平台不适合自己。
Because so long as they from the top are saying, This is what creativity is, or This is what it means to be a creator, It means everyone who's not that sees the platform is not for them.
但正因为把它做成了这样，你才会看到像英国那个拍二战奇葩视频的家伙，居然火得一塌糊涂。
But by making it this thing, you have this guy in England who makes weird videos about World War II shit, and he's wildly successful.
这就意味着，平台变得特别包容，什么赛道都有。
And it means like, it becomes this thing where like, there's a million lane.
你不需要非得挤进某个特定的赛道。
You don't have to fit in a lane.
这里的路子多的是。
There's a million lanes.
要是没现成的路子，你就自己开辟一条。
And if your lane doesn't exist, just go ahead and start it.
这
That's
挺酷的。
cool.
我觉得这真的是一件非常良性、非常美好的事情。
And I think it's a really virtuous, wonderful, wonderful thing.
对。
Yeah.
你觉得现在YouTube和视频创作是一个可以让你极度垂直细分、找到你的受众、找到同好并获得认可的地方吗？如果你真的重新投入YouTube，你会倾向于深耕某个细分领域吗？
Do feel like seeing that YouTube now and video creation is a place where you can be extremely niche and you can find your crowd, you can find your people, you can be validated by it, do you feel like if you were to really dig into YouTube again, you would see yourself digging into a niche?
比如你是个跑步爱好者，你会去跑很多步；还是说你觉得内心深处有一种动力，如果你去创作并投入精力，目标是让尽可能多的人看到？
Like you're a big runner, you'd running a lot or do you feel like there's something inside of you where if you are to create and put effort into something, the goal is for as many people to see it?
我知道你不太在意播放量，但你本身就是一个能产生巨大影响力的人。
I know you don't care about views, but you're someone who comes from a background of major impact.
昨天有个跑步应用找过我，想跟我合作。
I like met with a running app yesterday, and they're like, wanting to work with me.
他们人挺不错的，但我当时觉得，关于跑步我好像也没什么新内容可说了。
And they were awesome, but I was like, I don't know that I have anything else to say about running.
确实。
Yeah.
我觉得我该退出了。
I think I'm out.
不过说实话，刚才我们聊到的，其实也适用于我的HBO剧集。
But no, for me, it's We were just having this conversation about like, I This is true for my HBO show.
这同样适用于我1999年住在拖车公园时，用iMac做的那些视频。
This is true for the videos that I was making in, you know, 1999 on my iMac when I lived in a trailer park.
只要看到有意思的东西，尤其是我自己的生活里那些特别的瞬间，我就想把这份有趣分享出去。
Things When I see things that are interesting, especially things from my own life that are interesting, I want to share that interestingness.
这正是我整个创作理念的核心。
And that is at the core of my whole creative approach.
所以，哪怕我后来绕了地球一圈，从电影制作的角度来说，站在戛纳电影节的舞台上。
It's why like, you know, going all the way around the world figuratively when it comes to being a filmmaker, standing on the stage at the Cannes Film Festival.
在我人生的某个节点，我觉得自己其实可以走任何一条路。
You know, like there's a point in my life where I feel like I could have gone in any direction.
我本可以继续留在电视行业。
I could have stayed with television.
我本可以继续当商业广告导演。
I could have stayed as a commercial director.
我本可以成为一位大牌好莱坞导演。
I could have been a big Hollywood filmmaker.
但我还是回到了这件小事上。
But I just returned to this little thing.
现在我年纪大了，经济上也安稳了，那种年长带来的自信也有了。
And, you know, like I'm an old man now, and I've got financial security, and I've got the confidence that comes with being old.
我照镜子的时候会问自己：如果能做任何一件事，我最想做什么？
And I like I look in the mirror and say, What's the one thing I want to do if I could do anything in the world?
答案就是：只想一个人安安静静地，做点我觉得有趣又好玩的东西。
And it's like, just want to sit alone and like make whatever interesting thing seems funny to me.
过去十天我一直在拍的电影，是我小女儿在淋浴时，背对着淋浴头，贴在玻璃上。
The movie I've been working on for the last ten days is that my baby daughter taped up in the shower, facing the shower, some of glass on the outside.
就是一张清单，列出了在淋浴时必须做的八件事。
It's just a list of eight things that you have to do in the shower.
第一，唱歌。
Number one is sing.
第二，喝水。
Number two is eat the water.
第三，吐出来。
Number three is spit it out.
第四，开个迪斯科派对。
Number four is have a disco.
第五，配个药水。
Number five is make a potion.
第六，把药水弄进眼睛里，因为你傻。
Number six is get the potion in your eyes because you're dumb.
是她写的。
She wrote it.
不是我写的。
I didn't write that.
第七步是吹泡泡。
Number seven is blow bubbles.
我不记得第八步是什么了。
Don't remember what number eight.
我每天都看这个，心里就想：我非得拍个这个视频不可。
I've been reading that every day, I was like, I have to make that video.
我因为淋浴时拍视频，已经弄坏了四台索尼A7S3相机。
I've destroyed four Sony a seven s three cameras because filming in a shower is impossible.
但我觉得这事儿特别有意思。
But like that is fascinating to me.
我就想，我一定要拍这部电影。
And I'm like, I want to make this movie.
我这一路做过的所有事，包括在CAM电影节舞台上站过，都没这个小点子让我这么激动。
And there's nothing that I've done in my career, including standing on the stage at the CAM Film Festival, that gets me excited the way that little idea does.
咱们来细说说这个点子，因为你看到什么了。
Let's unpack that, because that idea, you see something.
是因为它太美好、太有人情味了，以至于你该怎么判断，就这个点足够让你拍一条视频了吗？
Is it just that it's so wonderful and wonderfully human that it's almost how do you discern, this one is enough for me to work on a video?
这个想法就是挺酷的。
This one's just kind of cool.
我会分享给朋友。
I'll share it with a friend.
在凯西回答这个问题之前，我想聊聊我们开始做YouTube的两个关键因素。
Now before Casey answers that question, I want to talk about the two biggest factors in us starting our YouTube journey.
一个是看凯西·奈斯塔特的Vlog，另一个是下载了Adobe Premiere Pro。
One was watching Casey Neistat's vlogs, and the second was downloading Adobe Premiere Pro.
从我们做创作者的第一天起，Adobe就一直陪伴着我们。
Adobe has been a part of our creator journey literally since day one.
我们的Logo是用Adobe Illustrator设计的。
I designed our logo in Adobe Illustrator.
所有的视觉素材都是用After Effects做的，而这档节目的每一集都是用Premiere Pro剪辑的。
All of our graphics are done in After Effects, and every single episode of this show has been edited in Premiere Pro.
Adobe成为Press Publish NYC以及本集节目的赞助商，这种感觉真的挺不真实的。
It felt really surreal to have Adobe be a sponsor of Press Publish NYC and to be a sponsor of this episode.
因为像我们这样的创作者，Adobe肯定已经在你的生活中占据了很大比重，也是你日常工作中不可或缺的一部分。
Because if you're a creator like us, then Adobe has probably been a huge part of your life and is probably a big part of your day to day.
在Press Publish NYC活动中，我们和Adobe合作举办了一场关于故事讲述未来的专场分享。
At Press Publish NYC, we've partnered with Adobe to host a session all about the future of storytelling.
在那场分享中，Adobe的Jared宣布Premiere即将推出移动端版本。
And during that session, Jared from Adobe announced that Premiere is now gonna be on mobile.
现在，包括我们在内的在场所有人都提前体验了手机版的Premiere。
Now everyone in the room, including us, got early access to Premiere on mobile.
经过实际测试，它并不是那种功能被大幅砍掉的精简版。
And after testing it, it's not like a stripped down version of Premiere.
手机版Premiere功能非常齐全，支持多轨道编辑、4K HDR、动态特效，甚至还能去除背景。
Premiere mobile has everything from multitrack editing to four k HDR support, motion effects, and even background removal.
而且所有这些操作，你都能在iPhone上完成。
And you can do all of this on your iPhone.
还有像增强语音这样的AI工具，可以帮你清理音频，还有生成音效，以及用Adobe的生成式AI创建原创素材。
You also have AI powered tools like enhanced speech to clean up your audio, generative sound effects, and the ability to create original assets with Adobe's generative AI.
如果你跟我一样，习惯坐在电脑前剪辑，那你可以先在手机上开始一个项目，然后同步到电脑上，在Premiere Pro里继续完成。
Now, you're like me and you need to like sit at a computer to edit, you can actually start a project on mobile and then move it over to desktop and finish it in Premiere Pro.
这真的很酷。
That's really cool.
确实很酷。
That's that's cool.
太酷了。
That's cool.
真不错。
That's cool.
我是不是已经
Did I already
说过了？
say that?
我觉得你刚才说过了。
I think you said that.
因为这确实很厉害。
Because that's cool.
因为这功能太棒了。
Because it's cool.
非常感谢Adobe支持我们的职业发展，以及支持我们在Press Publish NYC的愿景。
So thanks so much to Adobe for supporting our careers and supporting our vision with Press Publish NYC.
所以请点击链接
So click the link
在简介里，就可以试用Adobe Premiere Mobile。
in the description, and you can try Adobe Premiere Mobile.
完全免费。
It is completely free.
好的。
Alright.
现在我们继续回到与凯西·奈斯塔特的对话。
Now back to our conversation with Casey Neistat.
我不太会把事情想得那么抽象，但不得不说，现在的标准高多了。
I I don't know that I intellectualize it quite on that level, but I will say like the threshold's much higher now.
拍每日vlog的魅力在于，这800集里有750集都是围绕这个想法展开的——它就像一种推动力。
Like the beauty of doing the daily vlog, and I feel like of the 800 episodes, seven fifty were about this idea, is like I was there's a forcing agent.
比如我去买一杯冰沙。
So like I go to get a smoothie.
我就会想，怎么才能让这件事足够有趣，值得拍成一段视频？
I'm like, how do I make this interesting enough to warrant a video?
这其实是一次特别棒的创意训练。
And that was an incredible creative exercise.
因为你得主动去找，不是等灵感来找你，而是你必须去发现它。
Cause you had to find It wasn't when interesting strikes me, it was when I I had to find it.
我始终都在寻找这样的时刻。
I was always on the search.
如果我今天再来这儿，我肯定得想，天啊，这事儿值不值得拍一段视频？
If I came here today, I'd be like, Oh fuck, do I make a scene out of this?
这其实是个特别棒的创意训练。
And that's a really good creative exercise.
我现在已经走到了那一步的另一边。
And I'm on the other side of that now.
所以现在就是习惯性地到处观察。
So it's always just sort of looking around.
我每天盯着那东西看，心里就想，这挺有意思的。
But like I stared at that thing every day, I'm like, this is funny.
我能拿这个做点什么。
I can do something with this.
讽刺的是，我弄湿了那么多摄像设备，还把浴室淹了，结果整个片段在五分钟的视频里只占九秒钟。
And the irony of it is all the camera gear that I've soaked and don't work, and I flooded my apartment bathroom, and I only that whole scene is going be about nine seconds of like a five minute video.
拍完这个视频后，我就明白了，这根本算不上一部电影。
Because I made that video, I was like, this isn't a movie.
我当时到底在想什么？
What was I thinking?
然后我还得琢磨怎么拍这部电影。
And then I have to figure out the movie.
过程本身就是回报。
And it's like, the process is the reward.
对。
Yeah.
所以我觉得，只要有什么动力让你拿起相机开始行动，那就能启动整个过程。
So I guess it's just like whatever is motivating enough to pick up the camera and get started, that kind of initiates the process.
我觉得你拍的那个救无人机的视频，是我最喜欢的一个，每次我想理解怎么讲好故事，都会拿它当例子。
I think one of my favorite videos of yours that I always reference when it comes to turning something in, like really understanding how storytelling works, is when you had to rescue the drone.
你还记得那个视频吗？
Do remember you that video?
记得，那个视频叫《我有史以来最棒的》。
Yeah, it's called My All Time Greatest.
因为那部片子是我有史以来最棒的电影。
Because that was my all time greatest movie ever.
因为我看过，我不确定你后来有没有改过标题，但我记得当时看到的是《我史上最棒的》。
Because I looked at, I don't know if you changed the title at some point, but I remember seeing that of like, My All Time Greatest.
我当时就想，这其实把你遇到的状况变成了一段精彩的故事结构，有冲突、有解决、有胜利，就像那个什么英雄故事圈一样。
And I was like, this is actually turning a situation that you got into into like an incredible story structure of problem solution, triumph, this like Harmon story circle.
这可是史上最棒的三幕剧叙事啊。
This is the greatest three act narrative ever.
我记得当时在公寓里剪辑那段视频，那时候我们刚有了宝宝。
I remember editing that in my apartment, we had a baby.
那时候已经是凌晨一点了。
It was like one in the morning.
剪完之后，我高兴得在椅子上跳了起来。
I finished it, and I'm like jumping in the chair.
我跟Candice说，你快看这个。
I was like, Candice, you've got to see this.
她看完之后说，你他妈的把无人机给弄丢了，真是服了。
And she watched it, and she's like, You lost your fucking drone, KMT.
这视频里啥事都没有。
Nothing happens here.
她说的完全没错。
And she's completely right.
这视频真的太平淡了。
This is such a nothing video.
对。
Yeah.
但关键在于找到那种戏剧张力，对吧。
But it was like finding the dramatic tension Right.
就像《逃离德黑兰》里，他们终于逃脱、飞机起飞的那场戏，空乘说现在我们开始提供酒水服务。
Of like a truly like that scene in like Argo when they finally like escape Tehran and like the plane's taking off, they're like, we're now serving alcohol.
因为已经飞越国际水域了。
We're over international waters.
就是那一刻，他们因为兴奋而完成了这一切。
And it's this moment of like, they did it in elation.
我居然在一段什么都没发生的视频里，感受到了那种成就。
Like, I felt like I achieved that in a video about nothing.
是的。
Yeah.
这纯粹是关于如何在毫无意义的内容里，找到一个完整的故事结构。
Like, so it was purely about that idea of finding this story structure, even though the subject matter was about something that was like not even incidental.
真的什么都没有。
Was such a nothing.
根本没有任何实质内容。
There was no substance to it whatsoever.
是的。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢这一点。
I love that.
我想跟你聊聊跟别人合作的事，因为我们马上要采访 Max 和 Cleo。
I want to ask you about working with other people because we're about to speak with Max and Cleo.
我知道你之前跟 Max 合作过很多次。
I know you've worked a lot with Max.
而且你以前说过，你不擅长管人，但你确实有一些合作对象。
And historically, you've said that you are not good at managing people, but there are people that you collaborate with.
我想知道，要跟你合作，对方需要具备什么条件？
And I'm wondering, what does it take for you to collaborate with someone?
我不仅不擅长管理团队。
It's not just I don't work managing people.
我根本不太适合跟别人合作，就是这样。
I don't work well with others, period.
比如我从洛杉矶搬回纽约的时候，唯一的目标就是不要雇任何员工。
Like when I moved back to New York from Los Angeles, my only goal was to have no employees.
在我的办公室里，我自己每周都拖地。
And in my office, like I mop the floors every week.
我会自己倒垃圾。
I take out the trash.
真的，我手下一个人也没有。
Like I have no one.
那里才是让我最舒服的地方。
And it's my happy place.
我是真的特别喜欢这样。
Like it's my favorite thing.
公司最多时我有过38名员工。
And I've been like at the height with 38 employees.
我当时定了一条规矩：除非公司倒闭，否则我绝不会和任何员工进行一对一谈话。
And the rule was, I will shut this company down before I'll have a one on one meeting with any of our employees.
这家公司之所以能撑下去，全靠我的合伙人马特·哈克特。他是我这辈子见过的最顶尖的管理者，也是最擅长与人打交道的专家。
And the only reason why that company worked is because I had a partner, Matt Hackett, who's one of the best managers, one of the best people people people I've ever met in my life.
我们在起步阶段就意识到了这一点。
And we sort of found that at the very early.
我当时就想，好吧，这就是我能胜任的角色。
I was like, look, here's the role I can play.
而他能扮演的角色是这样的。
This is the role he can play.
我们俩的合作简直是天作之合。
It was a perfect marriage.
但说到创作，我平时根本不跟别人一起干活。
But creatively, like, I don't work while collaborating with others.
只有马克斯·约瑟夫是我愿意合作的人。
Max Joseph is the only person I work while collaborating with.
我YouTube频道里有一千二百多个视频，其中一千一百九十八个都是我剪的。
Like there are 1,200 videos on my YouTube channel, eleven ninety eight of them I edited.
那两个最好的视频，是马克斯剪的。
The two best videos Max edited.
他是我唯一合作过的人。
He's the only person that I worked with.
比如说，丹·梅斯就是个绝佳的例子。
Like a great version of this is Dan Mace.
没错。
Yeah.
在各个方面，丹·梅斯都比我更擅长拍电影。
Dan Mace is a better filmmaker than me in every capacity.
他讲故事的能力更强。
He's a better storyteller.
他更擅长叙事性电影。
He's a better narrative filmmaker.
他的技术功底也更扎实。
He's a better technical filmmaker.
他真是个了不起的电影人。
He's an incredible filmmaker.
我把他从南非叫到纽约，因为我再也无法每天拍一条视频了。
And I moved him from South Africa to New York because I couldn't make a video a day anymore.
我快崩溃了。
I was losing my mind.
所以我就找个人来帮帮我。
So I'd have somebody to help me.
前两周，我让他帮忙剪辑。
The first two weeks, I had him try to assist me on the edit.
两周后我就觉得，这效率慢了十倍，视频质量还缩水一半。
After two weeks, was like, this is taking 10 times as long and the videos are half as good.
你被开除了。
Like you're completely fired.
你以后就每天陪我待着吧。
The only thing you're going do now is just hang out with me every day.
因为他太棒了，是我最好的朋友，而且镜头感特别好。
Because he's awesome, he's my best friend, and he's great on camera.
这也清楚地暴露出我有多不擅长合作——他明明是个能力超强的导演，也是个超棒的搭档。
And like that reflects vividly on how bad I am at collaborating, because he's an incredibly capable filmmaker and an incredible collaborator.
问题全出在我自己身上。
The weakness was all here.
我明明有个再好不过的搭档，却还是搞砸了。
Like I couldn't have had a better partner, and I still failed miserably.
我不喜欢这样。
I don't like it.
我享受一个人待着。
I love being alone.
就我一个人坐在那儿，盯着屏幕，慢慢琢磨。
Like just myself sitting there, staring, and figuring it out.
唯一例外的就是马克斯。
The only exception to that is Max.
他是唯一一个我能给他看粗剪版本的人。
Max is the only person I show my rough edits to.
他总是说：‘老兄，你这剪得一塌糊涂。’
And he's like, nah bro, you fucked this.
我当时就想，我讨厌麦克斯的反馈，是因为他总是对的。
Was like, And why I hate Max's feedback is that he's always right.
对啊。
Yeah.
这种认可简直是最让人难受的那种。
It's the worst kind of worst kind of credit.
我们现在正处在这样一个时刻，记得吗？当CNN收购Beam的时候，我还记得那件事。
So we're entering this moment where it feels like, like obviously when CNN bought Beam, I remember that.
我记得清清楚楚。
I remember that.
你记得吧？
Yeah, you remember that?
我看到了。
I saw
就是这个。
this.
我记得当时觉得，哦，这挺有意思的。
Remember recognizing, was like, oh that's really interesting.
从我角度看，或者说我的感觉是，他们真的很想要凯西。
From my perspective, or my perception of it was, man, they really want Casey.
他们真的很想跟凯西合作。
They really want to work with Casey.
对，我没看出来。
Yeah, I didn't see it
像这样。
that way.
我感觉到创作者经济正在经历一个类似的历史时刻，好莱坞制片厂现在对我们非常感兴趣。
I am seeing kind of a moment in time that's happening again in the creator economy, where I'm seeing Hollywood studios get really interested in us.
我也看到更多传统企业和品牌因为联网电视上的变化而对创作者产生兴趣。
I'm seeing more traditional companies and brands get interested in creators because of what's happening on connected TVs.
我们就是那个焦点。
We are the thing.
我们掌握着用户的注意力。
We're controlling attention.
如果我们想和这样的品牌，或者大型好莱坞制片厂合作，你有什么建议？该怎么入手？
What's your advice for if we want to get involved with a brand like that, or like big Hollywood studios, or how do we navigate that?
我觉得很简单，他们能为我们带来什么？
I have a simplistic take on it, is like, what are they bringing to the table?
那我们又能为他们提供什么？
What are you bringing to the table?
对。
Yeah.
我跟吉米聊过他那部奈飞的剧集。
You know, had this talk with Jimmy about his Netflix show.
还有亚马逊的剧集。
Amazon show.
亚马逊的剧集，没错。
Amazon show, yeah.
顺便说一句，那真是太棒了。
Which was awesome, by the way.
我记得跟他说过，你看，就算这个剧成了亚马逊历史上最成功的剧集，它的播放量也比你最差的视频还要低。
And I remember saying to him, I was like, look, this show, if it's the most successful show in the history of Amazon, will do less views than your worst performing video.
他们能带来什么？
What are they bringing to the table?
他给出了一个特别棒的回答。
And he had a fantastic answer.
他说，这是我第一次在制作上遇到这么正式的流程。
He was like, A kind of formality in my production I've never done before.
他们帮我接触到了新的观众群体。
They introduced me to a new audience.
他们逼着我走出了舒适区。
They forced me out of my comfort zone.
我当时就说，这些回答真太棒了。
And I was like, Those are fantastic answers.
你真该试试。
You should do it.
但如果你从没问过自己这个问题，或者像我一样——我妈妈把当年我们HBO节目播出时从《电视指南》上剪下来的那页，装进相框挂在墙上，上周末我去康涅狄格州还看到了。
But if you're not asking yourself that question, or if you're like me, because like I grew up in a Like my mom has framed in her house, I was there this weekend in Connecticut, the TV Guide.
现在40岁以下的人根本不知道《电视指南》是什么东西。
No one here under 40 even knows what a TV Guide is.
我妈妈保留的，就是十五年前我们节目播出时，她从《电视指南》上剪下来的那一小块。
Know what a TV My Guide mom has, from when our HBO show came out fifteen years ago, she cut it out of the TV Guide.
这辈子我干过任何事，都没法超越这个成就。
And for me, there's nothing I will do in life that will trump that success.
那档节目当时也就几百个人看过。
That show was seen by hundreds of people.
对吧。
Right.
但对她来说，那就是全部。
But to her, that's this thing.
所以我现在还留着它。
So like, I still have this.
我虽然已经放下了，但说到底，没什么比电视更重要。
I've shed it, but like, there's no greater thing than television.
参加电影节也根本算不上什么大事。
There's no bigger deal than being in a film festival.
就算Netflix找上门说要给你一档节目，那也真算不上多了不起。
There's no, you know, there's nothing more important than having Netflix say, we want to give you a show.
我觉得这多半是自尊心在作祟。
And I think that's mostly ego.
别以为情况真是这样。
Like, don't think that's the case.
如果你是为了虚荣或寻求认可才去追这些，那多半是走错了路。
And if you're chasing that because of ego or because of validation, I think it's most often a mistake.
对。
Yeah.
所以我觉得，关键是要真正珍惜自己提供的价值，以及这种合作关系能带来什么。
So I think it's about really appreciating what you're providing and then what that partnership might be providing.
就像MrBeast那个例子，真的特别典型。
And like the MrBeast example is a really, really good one.
对。
Yeah.
他们给了他一个机会，去做一些他本来不会去做的事。
They gave him an opportunity to do something he otherwise would not have had to do.
不过我觉得，随着创作者们在这个注意力经济中占据主导地位，那些需要注意力的人自然会开始去讨好他们。
But I think that we're going to see more of that As creators are consuming the attention in this economy attention economy, then naturally, whoever needs attention, they're going to start courting those individuals.
到了那个阶段，你其实就可以直接问对方：你到底想从我这儿得到什么？
And in those moments, you just sort of ask, like, What do you want from me?
你提到了CNN。我知道时间不多了，但我得说说我在CNN收购我公司这件事上最大的失误。现在CNN那边当初参与收购的人都走光了，所以我可以直言不讳：我当时太天真了。
You brought up CNN, and I know we're running low on time, but like my biggest shortcoming in the CNN acquisition, which I can speak freely about because everyone involved at CNN when they bought my company is now gone, I was completely naive.
这听起来可能有点傻，但我当时完全没意识到，他们真正想要的其实只是我这个人。
This sounds silly, but I was completely naive to the fact that they just wanted me.
我第一次和他们见面的时候——顺便说一句，当时签了三年保密协议，不过现在早就过期了。
Because my first meeting with them is And by the way, was under an NDA for like three years, but it's long dead.
我第一次见他们，他们直接问：‘我们怎么合作？’
My first meeting with them, they were like, How can we work together?
他们说的‘合作’，其实就是想让你上CNN。
And they purely meant, How can we get you on CNN?
怎么把你的人群带过来？
How can we bring your audience?
我当时就说：‘这办不到。’
And I was like, We can't.
你们根本没什么能给我的。
There's nothing you have to offer me.
然后我停了一下，又说：‘不过你们的技术真烂。’
And then I stopped and I was like, You know, your tech sucks, though.
我说：‘我做的技术可好多了。’
I was like, I make really good tech.
我们做的视频产品特别棒。
We make incredible video products.
我们俩应该合作一把。
We should work together.
这事儿就是这么开始的。
And that's what started.
虽然听起来有点傻，但当时他们真没跟我细聊过，买了我的技术公司之后具体打算怎么合作。
And there was, as silly as this sound, there wasn't really a conversation about what we were going to do together once they bought my technology company.
后来几周和几个月里，我越来越清楚地意识到这一点。
And it became super evident to me, like, in the weeks and months after.
他们合作起来非常棒。
They were great to work with.
你说什么他们就做什么。
They do whatever you want.
他们真正想要的，是希望我能像运营我的频道那样，帮他们做类似的事情。
That what they wanted is they wanted sort of what I did for my channel to do for
我当时就是注意力。
I was Attention.
他们做的就是注意力的生意。
They're in the business of attention.
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，这多少有点让人失望，但我并不怪他们。
And it was kind of like a little bit of a letdown for me, and I don't fault them.
这完全是我自己目光短浅、太天真了，我以为他们想和我一起打造好技术，其实根本不是，他们只是想看看能不能让我把观众带过去。
It was purely my own shortsightedness that like and my own naivete, I thought that they wanted to build good tech together when really like No, they wanted to see if there's a way for me to bring that audience to them.
我想这就是为什么我们的关系这么动荡。
And I think that's why it was such a tumultuous relationship.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得双方的初衷根本没对上，问题出在我自己没问清楚：我能给他们带来什么，他们又能给我带来什么——我根本没认真思考过这个根本性的问题。
I think the intentions were really misaligned, and it started with me not saying, what am I bringing to them and what are they I bringing to didn't give a clear perspective on that big sort of existential consideration.
这场活动之后，这些创作者们——真的太燃了
So after this event, a lot of these creators and creators It's fucking hot
这儿简直热得不行。
in here, man.
这儿确实很热。
It's hot in here.
温度越来越高了。
It's getting steamy.
活动结束后，包括我们在内的所有创作者都会回家，继续各自的创作之路。
After this event, creators are going go home, including us, and carry on with their creative journeys.
你给我们留下一个指导原则，或者一个每个人都该带回家的想法。
You leave us with a guiding principle, or just a thought that everyone should take home with it.
不用了。
No.
从你刚才说的那些话里，我已经能感受到大家的心声了。
I can tell from everyone what you told us.
没错，确实如此。
There's a great Yeah, actually that's true.
有一句奥斯卡·瓦德的名言说得特别好：有些事太重要了，不能太当真。
There's a great Oscar Wad quote, and it's that some things are too important to be taken seriously.
我觉得，从远处看，YouTube 上很多人已经忽略了这一点。
And I think that, I feel like from afar a lot of that is sort of lost in YouTube.
因为平台能给你各种数据，有些人赚得太多，就太较真了。
It's like, because they can give you these metrics, because you can make so much because some people make so much money, people take it too seriously.
在追逐数字、播放量、指标这些所谓‘魔法’的过程中，你很容易忘了初衷。
And in that pursuit of whatever it is, numbers, views, metrics, this magic, like you can lose sight of that.
但正是这份魔法，多年来一直是我整个职业生涯中最让我着迷的东西。
And it's that magic has been the only thing that's ever turned me on in my whole career.
正因为我一直忠于这份魔法，才有了今天的成就。
By being faithful to that magic, I've had all of this success.
如果哪天我放弃了它，只去追那些外在的东西，我想我早就失去一切了。
And I think if ever I'd let go of that and just chase that other thing, I think I would have lost that.
如果我放弃了对创意的这份坚持，我觉得自己根本不可能取得现在的成就。
I don't think I would have found the success that I was able to find if I surrendered that loyalty to creativity.
那就这么做吧。
So do that.
这样行吗？
Is that good?
就这么做。
Do that.
好的。
Okay.
大家最近都在用的那种乒乓球火箭是什么东西？
What are these ping pong rockets everybody has?
它们既能当风扇用，还能让人一眼看出你愿不愿意聊天。
They double as fans, but they allow people to say if they, like to talk or don't like to talk.
如果红色的太多，就会
And if we get too many reds, it'll
我们一直收到一些人的反馈
be We've been getting people
他们跟我争论。
arguing with me.
你是遮住阳光了，还是不喜欢我刚才说的话？
Are you blocking your sun or you didn't like what I had to say?
你遮阳光的时候，能把牌子翻一下吗？
Oh, can you flip that around while you block the sun?
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
所以
So
我就想在这儿做个总结。
I just wanted to wrap here.
我不确定你还记不记得，大概七年前，我们作为你的粉丝第一次见到你，是在
I don't know if you remember this, but probably seven years ago, we met for the first time, us as fans of yours, at
柯林斯老高中。
Collins Old High School.
你当时在普林斯的亨特学校做演讲。
You were speaking at the Hunt School in Prince
我记得很清楚。
I remember his vividly.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我们当时只跟你聊了大概三十秒，就把你送出门了。
We had about thirty seconds with you, and walked you out the door.
我至今都忘不了，我们凑到你跟前，把相机尽量伸出去拍vlog，记录下那个瞬间。
And I'll never forget it, we walked up to you, camera cocked out as far as we could to vlog, Capture the moment on camera.
我们简直太激动了，居然能拿到你的片段。
And we're just like so over the moon to get a clip of you.
我们当时就在想，凯西，你能给我们点建议吗？其实我都记不清具体说了啥，大概把我们做的所有事都一股脑儿告诉了你。
We're like, Casey can you give us any, I don't even know actually what we said, think we just told you everything we did.
是啊，我们把所有能想到的都跟你说了，占了你差不多全部时间。
Yeah, killed almost all the time with everything we had done.
我们把你做的所有酷炫视频都聊了个遍，问了你一个问题，然后就走到门口了。
All the time with all the cool videos we made, and asked you a question, and then we get to the door.
你看着我们，说：听好了，没人会告诉你答案。
You look at us and you're like, listen, nobody's going to tell you.
你得自己去摸索出来。
You're just going have to go figure it out yourself.
然后你停了一下，说：恭喜你取得的所有成就。
And then you pause and you go, congrats on all your success.
说完你就走了。
And you walked out.
那天剩下的时间，科林和我都没怎么说话。
And Colin and I didn't talk to each other for the rest of the day.
我们当时就觉得，是不是我哪里做错了。
We were like, something was wrong about me.
我们都在想，我们刚才到底做了什么？
We were like, what did we just do?
后来我们才意识到，有一件事我们根本没对你说，那就是——谢谢你。
And we realized that we just didn't say one thing that we wanted to say to you, which is just thank you.
是的，我们真的
Yeah, just We really
非常感激你给这个世界带来的启发。
appreciate appreciate the inspiration you put into the world.
说实话，我上过电影学院，在RED工作室做过剪辑，后来看了《Make It Count》。
Truly, truly, truly, I went to film school, I worked as an editor at RED Studios, and then I watched Make It Count.
多亏了你和马克斯，我才下定决心：我也要这么做。
And credit to you and Max, I was like, I'm going do that.
我真的非常感激。
So I appreciate it.
希望我没显得太不近人情。
I hope I wasn't a dick about it.
没有。
No.
你处理得特别体贴。
You were kind about it.
你非常有风度。
You were very gracious.
你一直认真听我们说。
You listened to us the whole time.
你人真好。
I very nice.
你才是那个
You were the I
我依稀记得那件事。
loosely remember it.
你们当时简直是一拥而上。
You guys just sort of assaulted me.
是的，没错。
Yeah, yeah.
我就是这个意思。
That's what I'm saying.
对，我说对不起，所以我们一直觉得挺过意不去的。
Yeah, I'm saying sorry, which is why we felt bad
所以我们想正式道个歉。
and we wanted to apologize.
这件事我们憋了七年了。
We've been holding onto that for seven years.
我知道，我很感激，不过我真想看看当时的录像。
I know, I appreciate it, but to what did I'd love to see the footage.
依我记忆所及，我当时说恭喜你取得这么多成就，其实是在居高临下地说话。
To what degree I remember, I think the reason why I said congrats on all your success, which was me being condescending.
那确实是。
That was
其实就是客气地说：滚吧。
a polite way of saying, go fuck yourself.
滚吧。
Go fuck yourself.
我明白。
I understand.
顺便说一句，你的话我们听得清清楚楚。
By the way, it was heard loud and clear.
因为当你去接近一个我认识的人时，
Was because like, when you approach to approach someone I know.
你懂我的意思。
You know what I'm saying.
不，直接说就行。
No, just say it.
对。
Yeah.
直接说呗。
Just say it.
直接说嘛。
Just say it.
我是真心想跟你们好好聊聊的。
Like, would have loved to engage with you guys.
我知道。
I know.
这就好比去约会，结果你全程只顾着跟对方说：‘亲爱的，我想借这个机会好好吹吹我自己有多牛。’
It's like going on a date and just being like, look sweetheart, I want to use this whole date to tell you about how fucking great I am.
你准备好了吗？
Are you ready?
系好安全带，戴夫。
Buckle up, Dave.
这事儿肯定成不了，老兄。
Like it's not going to work out, man.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我压根没想到我们会谈到这个。
I didn't know we were going
虽然没想到会在这儿聊这个，但既然开了头，那就说吧。
to dig into that here, but here we are.
没关系。
That's all right.
我很感谢。
I appreciate it.
我说，我一直想跟你聊聊这件事。
I said, I've always wanted to talk to you about it.
所以我就
So I
谢谢你愿意承认这一点。
appreciate you acknowledging it.
我们有那段视频。
We have the clip.
把它忘了。
Forgotten it.
你早就把它忘得一干二净了。
You've long forgotten it.
好吧。
Okay.
这七年来，我们每天都想着这件事。
We've thought about it every day for seven years.
好的。
Yeah.
那我们会把那段视频发给你。
So we'll we'll send you we'll send you the clip.
麻烦你了。
Please do.
好的。
Yeah.
应该拍个视频讲讲这事。
Should make a video about it.
我们得找个哥们儿来拍。
We make a guy about it.
女士们先生们，Casey Neistat。
Ladies and gentlemen, Casey Neistat.
不是。
No.
刚才那段挺不错的。
That was good.
刚才那下太好玩了。
That was so fun.
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