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欢迎收听《Live From The Compound》。
Welcome to Live From The Compound.
我是迈克尔·巴特尼克，我非常激动。
My name is Michael Batnick, and I am very excited.
我期待这一刻已经很久了。
I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
今天和我一起的是埃里克·赫希。
I'm joined today by Erik Hirsch.
埃里克是汉密尔顿巷的首席执行官。
Erik is the CEO of Hamilton Lane.
埃里克，欢迎你。
Erik, welcome.
很高兴来到这里。
Happy to be here.
好的。
Alright.
所以我想先从汉密尔顿·莱恩的资产管理规模图表开始。
So I wanna start with, a chart of Hamilton Lane's AUM.
你是什么时候接任CEO的？
You took over as CEO when?
大概两年半前吧。
So about two and a half years ago.
好的。
Okay.
但你在公司已经待了一段时间了。
But you've been with the company for a while.
很久了。
Long time.
我是九十年代末加入的。
Joined there in the late nineties.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们有从2005年开始的数据。
So we have this going back to 2005.
这是我们从你那里拿来的。
We took this from you.
管理资产规模达到60亿美元，这还不包括咨询顾问资产，那部分让你们的总资产超过了一万亿美元。
$6,000,000,000 in assets under management, to say nothing of assets under advisory, which puts you guys over a trillion dollars.
但从2005年到现在，你们的资产从60亿美元增长到大约1460亿美元，二十年时间。
But from 2005, you've grown from $6,000,000,000 in assets to around $146,000,000,000 twenty years later.
真是了不起的成就。
Pretty incredible run.
显然，你们做对了很多事情。
Obviously, you guys have done something right.
所以对于不了解Hamilton Lane的听众来说，这是一家大型上市另类资产管理公司，你们是谁？
So for the audience who doesn't know Hamilton Lane, a gigantic publicly traded alternative asset manager, Who are you?
你们到底是做什么的？
What are you guys all about?
你是谁，为什么在这里？
Who are you and why are you here?
汉密尔顿巷，我们认为自己是一家私募市场解决方案提供商。
Hamilton Lane is what we think of as a private market solutions provider.
所以我们不是像黑石或KKR那样的基金管理公司。
So we are not a fund manager like a Blackstone or a KKR.
我们实际上是向这类公司以及许多其他公司提供资本的一方。
We're really a provider of capital into firms like that and many, many, many others.
因此，我们的客户群基本上是任何想进入私募市场的投资者。
And so our client base is really any investor who's looking to access the private markets.
可以想象成很多机构投资者，比如养老基金、捐赠基金、主权财富基金、保险公司、银行等等，还有大量的个人投资者。
So think of that as lots of institutional investors, pension funds, endowments, sovereign wealth funds, insurance companies, banks, etcetera, and then lots of individual investors.
关于这类资产，有一个常见的误解，就是很多人觉得，嗯，我自己就能搞定。
And one of the misnomers around this asset class is that most people assume, well, I can just do it myself.
做私募市场真的很难。
Doing the private markets is really hard.
找到投资渠道、挑选管理人、构建投资组合，说实话，即使是大型机构投资者也不会自己来做。
Finding access, identifying managers, building portfolios is frankly not something even very large institutional investors do themselves.
他们大多选择外包。
They mostly outsource.
所以我们实际上就是那个外包服务提供方。
And so we are effectively that outsource provider.
我完全同意，这个市场领域，你刚才说它是一个资产类别。
I totally agree that this area of the market, you said it's an asset class.
对，确实。
Yeah, sure.
但下面有无数个不同的子资产类别。
But there's a million different sub asset classes.
我的意思是，私募信贷下面就有很多不同的层次。
I mean, private credit has a million different layers under that hood.
这又是一个误解，我遇到的大多数人，我们聊到私募市场的时候。
That's another misunderstanding is that I meet most people and we talk about the private markets.
我会说，你能说出多少个私募市场的基金经理？
And I say, name me as many private market fund managers as you can.
然后那些常见的名字很快就冒出来了。
And the kind of the common names come spilling out very quickly.
但一旦我们过了，你知道，十个或十二个名字之后，他们就开始沉默了。
But once we get past, you know, 10 names or 12 names, they kind of get very quiet.
然后我对他们说，好吧。
And I say to them, okay.
如果我们真的要列出市场上所有的参与者，我们还有成千上万个名字要数呢。
Well, we have thousands and thousands and thousands more to go if we're gonna actually name all the players in the market.
所以我们市场中的绝大多数参与者，那个领域里的玩家，没人听说过他们，因为他们主要募集的是机构资金。
So the vast majority of our market, the the players in that space, no one's ever heard of them because they're raising primarily institutional capital.
他们管理着十亿或二十亿美元，而且这样的人有很多。
They are managing a billion dollars or $2,000,000,000, and there's lots of them.
而且他们遍布全球，在不同的地方、不同的地区、不同的子行业里运作，就像你说的。
And they're all over the globe, and they're all operating in different locales and different geographies, different subsectors to your point.
所以这是一个巨大的行业，要摸清门道很难。
So it's a huge industry and navigating that is hard.
所以我想先从这个说起。
So I want to lead with this.
我完全不反对私募市场。
I am not anti private markets at all.
我觉得这个行业有些东西，以及我确实有些意见的地方，我们可以深入聊聊。
I think that there are some things with the industry and some of the things that I do have issues with, which we can get into.
比如说，不是要一直纠结这个点，但对我来说，私募股权就是股权。
For example, not to harp on this point, but private equity to me is equity.
我不认为它会……
I don't think that it's going to be...
回报会跟公开股权回报脱离开来。
That returns are going to be divorced from public equity returns.
不会完全一样，但我们投资的是企业的股权。
It's not going to be the same exact thing, but we're investing in the equity of a business.
我们做的就是这件事。
That's what we're doing here.
我同意。
I agree.
我是说，我们这个行业，以前人们常说，现在有些人还在错误地说，嗯，它和公开市场不相关。
I mean, our industry, when people used to say, and some people still say incorrectly, that, well, it's not correlated to the public markets.
这让我很抓狂。
That drives me nuts.
你应该抓狂，因为这不是真的。
It should drive you nuts because it's not true.
它和私人市场完全相关……
It's totally correlated to the private...
和公开市场。
To the public markets.
之所以看起来相关性没那么强，甚至有时候完全不相关，是因为报告有时间滞后，这也是我们行业另一个让人头疼的地方。如果你投资的是私募市场基金或私募股权基金，作为有限合伙人，你拿到的报表至少比上季度末晚一个季度。
The reason why it can look less correlated or it's even sometimes uncorrelated is the reporting time lag, which is also another frustration about our industry, which is if you're in a private markets fund, a private equity fund, and you're a limited partner in that fund, you're getting your statements at least a quarter lag after the prior quarter end.
正是这个时间差，在纸面上造成了那种“看起来不太相关”的错觉。
Well, that time lag, that's what, again, on a piece of paper creates the notion of, well, this doesn't look super correlated.
对，因为你只是把时间错开了。
Yeah, because you just time lagged it out.
但当你把那个时间差消除掉，从数学上是可以做到的，它们其实是相关的。
But when you kind of erase that, and mathematically, you can, they're correlated.
它们就是股票。
They're So equity
如果我们坦诚地聊这件事，作为投资者，我理解可能甚至……
if we have an honest conversation about it, as an investor, I understand that maybe even...
先别提什么流动性溢价了。
Forget about an illiquidity premium.
我很喜欢它不是每天估值这一点，但别骗我。
I love the fact that it's not marked on a daily basis, but don't lie to me about it.
别告诉我它们不相关。
Don't tell me that it's not correlated.
这只是另一种营销体系。
It's just a different marketing system.
很多时候，公开市场会出现恐慌，这跟企业的基本面没什么关系。
Now, oftentimes public markets have a freak out that has nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the business.
所以存在这种差距是可以的，但我们要诚实，实话实说。
And so it's okay that this gap exists, but let's just be honest and call it what it is.
我完全同意。
I completely agree.
我觉得总的来说，我们这个资产类别是自己最大的敌人，因为我们通常不擅长谈论它。
I mean, I think just generally, our asset class has been its own worst enemy because we generally don't do a great job talking about it.
我们把私密性发挥到了极致，所以人们觉得不谈论事情是个好主意。
We took private to sort of the extreme, and so people thought that that was a good idea to kind of not talk about stuff.
我们在相关性这个问题上一直有误导。
We've been misleading around this idea of correlation.
所以我觉得这个行业有很多糟糕的代言人，他们制造了这些误解，而这些误解其实并不符合现实。
So I think there's been a lot of, you know, of bad spokespeople for the industry that have then created some of these misunderstandings, are just not reality.
这个行业的民主化是另一回事，也许我们可以聊聊这个。
The democratization of this is another thing, and maybe we could talk about it.
从宏观角度来看私人资产行业的历史，它始于……
The history of the industry in private assets at a 10,000 foot view, it started...
不是始于。
Not started.
它真正爆发是在大卫·斯文森创立耶鲁模式之后，带来了大量的超额收益，贝恩等公司也在八十年代进入，当时这些私营公司的估值相对于公开市场低得离谱，因为存在流动性折价。
It really blew up after David Swanson created the Yale model, tons of Alpha, Bain and others came in the eighties, and these private companies were selling at a legitimately unbelievable discount to public markets because there was an illiquidity discount.
这意味着什么？
Which meant And?
当时的杠杆因素
The leverage factor back then
实际上是天文数字。
was actually astronomical.
瓮中捉鳖。
Fish in a barrel.
同意。
Agree.
那个时代早就过去了。
That that era is long gone.
早就过去了。
Long gone.
早就过去了。
Long gone.
已经过去几十年了。
It has been gone for decades.
好。
Okay.
所以不可能每个人都能一直获得超额收益。
So there can't be alpha for everyone always.
所以你可以说，私募资产可能提供不同的回报流，不同的……
And so you could say that private assets offer maybe different return streams, different...
比如基础设施。
So infrastructure.
那跟标普500没什么关系。
That has nothing.
完全没关系。
Nothing.
那并不是标普500的主要收入来源。
That is not really where the S and P five hundred makes its bread and butter.
所以我们可以坦诚地说这一点，而不必说如果你投资标普500，你就只投了那七巨头，如果它们垮了，我们都完蛋了。
So we could be honest about that without saying if you're in the S and P five hundred, you're just invested in the max seven, and we're all going to die if that falls apart.
同意。
Agree.
所以，进入私募市场有很多充分的理由，但我绝不会推荐通过指数来进入私募市场，反正你也做不到。
So there are lots of good reasons to be in the private markets, But I would never recommend that a good way to access the private markets, you can't anyhow, would be through an index.
因为毫不奇怪，如果我们谈论的是一个有成千上万管理者的资产类别，你会有一些非常出色的管理者，也会有一些非常糟糕的管理者。
Because not surprisingly, if we're talking about an asset class that has thousands and thousands and thousands of managers, you're going to have some really amazing managers and you're going to have some really lousy managers.
有趣的是，那些所谓的专家们一直告诉我们，随着这个资产类别变大，筹集的资金增多，时间推移，回报率会收窄。
And what's been interesting is the pundits, if you will, had sort of told us over time, hey, as this asset class gets bigger and more capital gets raised and time goes by, returns are going to compress.
他们
They
必须的。
have to.
但他们没有。
They haven't.
所以实际上，回报率的差距一直很大。
So they've actually stayed really wide.
从顶部到底部的业绩分散程度，基本上和二十年前一样大，尽管有更多的资金涌入。
The dispersion of performance from kind of top to bottom is basically as big today as it was twenty years ago despite a lot more capital coming in.
但分散在哪里？
But dispersion where?
因为比如说风险投资，业绩差距就非常大。
Because for venture, for example, the dispersion is huge.
差距确实非常大。
Dispersion's massive.
私募股权领域差距也很大。
It's also massive in private equity.
顺便说一句，私募信贷的差距也很大，分布非常分散。
It's also big, by the way, and dispersion in private credit has really wide dispersion.
这挺让人意外的。
That's surprising.
因为……
Be...
因为这归根结底取决于选择。
Because it comes down to choice.
我常举的例子是，比如说，你知道，我……
The example I always use is, let's say that, you know, I...
我在对一个有一百人的房间里的听众讲话。
I'm speaking to an audience in a room of a 100 people.
我说，好。
I say, okay.
我们所有人都……
We're all...
我们要买下我们举办这个活动所在的这家酒店。
We're gonna buy the hotel that we're sort of in for this event.
在接下来的一百年里，我们每个人都有机会当CEO。
And for for the next hundred years, right, each of us is gonna get a chance to be the CEO.
全权委托，完全掌控，你想怎么经营就怎么经营……
Carte Blanche, full control, do whatever you wanna do with that...
这家酒店。
With this hotel.
尽量把它做到最好。
Try to make it as good as possible.
这样一来，结果会非常不一样。
We're gonna have wildly different outcomes with that.
有人会选择投资餐饮。
Someone's gonna choose to invest in the food.
有人会选择升级房间。
Someone's gonna choose to upgrade the rooms.
客户会告诉你大概会发生什么，但结果不会是一样的。
And the clientele will tell you sort of what happens, but the results aren't going to be the same.
所以你看私募股权的时候，像购买价格这样的因素往往不是决定结果的主要因素。
And so when you look at private equity, things like purchase price tend not to be a huge determinant of the outcome.
关键在于你拥有资产之后怎么去经营它。
It's what you do with the asset once you own it.
这取决于实际管理团队以及支持他们的私募股权公司的能力。
And that comes down to the skill of the actual management team and the private equity firm that's backing them.
正是这种人为因素导致了结果差异非常大，因为会有好的决策，也会有坏的决策。
And it's that human component to this that causes dispersion to be very, very wide because good choices get made and bad choices get made.
我从来没收到过邮件说我们的回报率垫底。
I've never got an email saying we're the bottom quartile of returns.
没有。
No.
从来没人这么说过。
No one has ever said that.
我的意思是，现在如果有人来我们办公室想谈排名，那真是可笑，因为你会说，好吧，你是顶尖的。
I mean, it's laughable today if someone even comes in our office and wants to talk about quartiling because you sort of go, okay, you're top quartile.
那你算什么？
So you're what?
是排名前两三千的基金经理之一。
One of the top 2,000 or 3,000 best fund managers.
问题是，一个LP或投资者需要投多少只基金才能获得适当的分散？
The question is, how many funds does an LP or an investor need to do to kind of get appropriate diversity?
对Hamilton Lane的客户来说，答案是大多数人每年投的基金远少于10只。
The answer for the Hamilton Lane customers is that most of them are doing far fewer than 10 funds per year.
我是说，希望如此。
I mean, would hope so.
因为你想，每只基金会投10到20甚至30多家公司。
Because you think about each fund is gonna do 10 to 20 or 30 plus companies inside of it.
所以只要投八只基金，就能覆盖几百家公司，这已经足够分散了。
And so just doing eight funds gives you hundreds of companies, and that's enough diversification.
所以我们存在的原因之一就是，如果我们今年看到1500只基金在市场上募资，而客户说，嘿，我的投资组合只需要六只，那汉密尔顿团队就得做大量工作，把1500只筛选到六只。
So one of the reasons why we exist is if we're going to see 1,500 funds this year that are in market trying to raise capital, and we've got a customer that says, Hey, my portfolio only requires six, the Hamilton Lane team needs to do a whole lot of work to take 1,500 to six.
这又回到了我们为什么存在的原因。
And that's again back to kind of why we get to exist.
你提到了这些工作，而且事实上大多数投资者，不管你是个人投资者、注册投资顾问、大平台还是机构投资者，要尽职调查这些公司真的很难。
You mentioned the work and the fact that most investors, and it doesn't matter if you're an individual investor, an RIA, a big platform, an institutional investor, it's really hard to diligence these companies.
很难。
Hard.
基金，还有底层的那些公司。
The funds, the underlying.
所以我觉得我们在谈论私募资产的时候，聊了很多关于结构的事情。
So I feel like when we're talking about private assets, we talk a lot about the structure.
对。
Yep.
我们聊了业绩表现。
We talk about the performance.
我们聊了流动性。
We talk about liquidity.
但我觉得投资组合管理反而几乎成了事后才想到的事情。
But I feel like the portfolio management is actually weirdly almost an afterthought.
假设我坐在你们分析师和投资组合经理旁边，虽然我在这个行业里，但我可能看不懂他们在做什么。
And let's say I was sitting over the shoulder of some of your analysts and some of your portfolio managers, and I'm in the industry, but I wouldn't know what I'm looking at.
我大概会……
I would under...
一般来说，我怎么分辨一笔好交易和一笔坏交易呢？
Generally, but how would I know a good deal from a bad deal?
怎么……
How...
我能对里面那30家投资组合公司都做尽职调查吗？
Would I be able to diligence all 30 of the portfolio companies in there?
我能理解债务和股权的资本结构吗？
Would I be able to understand the debt and equity capital structure?
外部的人是谁……
Who are the outside...
比如说，它的外部人员。
Like, of it.
这需要很多专业知识。
It requires a lot of expertise.
所以单独做尽职调查很难。
So it's difficult to diligence individually.
所以当人们投资汉密尔顿巷的基金时，我想他们是把尽职调查外包给你们，并且对你们的团队感到放心。
So when people are investing in the Hamilton Lane funds, I would imagine that they're outsourcing their diligence to you, and they're getting comfortable with your team.
对。
Correct.
所以我们就是他们的资产管理人。
So we are the asset manager for them.
我们对资产有处置权，这些工作都是我们在做。
So we have discretion over the assets, we're doing that work.
我想说两点。
I would say two things.
第一，第一个问题，其实是从获取机会开始的，因为没有规定说你一定要去募集你的私募股权基金。
One, the first problem, if you will, actually starts with the access issue because there's no rule that says, hey, you're going to go raise your private equity fund.
你必须把它展示给所有人。
You have to show it to everybody.
答案是，好的管理人希望尽可能少地募资，因为那不是他们想花时间的地方。
The answer is the good managers want to do as little fundraising as possible because that's not where they want to spend their time.
他们想把时间花在成功投资和管理这些资产上。
They want to spend their time on deploying successfully and then managing those assets.
没有哪个募资的人会跟你说……
No fundraiser wants to say to you...
没有哪个资产管理人想跟你说，嘿。
No no asset manager wants to say to you, hey.
我最享受工作的时间就是募资的时候。
The the the time I most enjoy about my job is fundraising.
他们都想尽量压缩这段时间。
They wanna try to compress that as much as possible.
所以如果你真的很优秀，你可以把这段时间压缩得很短，因为你不必去很多地方找资金，这意味着世界上90%的人可能永远看不到这个机会。
So if you're really excellent, you can compress that time frame a lot because you don't have to go to very many sources to go get your capital, which means these 90% of the world may never see the opportunity.
所以，准入是第一个问题。
So the access is kind of problem number one.
第二个问题是尽职调查，因为没有规定说每个人都必须看到相同的信息。
Problem number two is the diligence, which is there's no rule that says everybody has to see the same information.
没有这回事。
That's not a thing.
所以，汉密尔顿巷之所以能做到这一点，是因为我们在行业中的规模、体量和重要性，意味着我们确实能看到所有30家公司，我们确实能看到资本结构，我们也能和其他投资者交流，还能查看债务结构。
And so Hamilton Lane's ability, because of our size and scale and importance in the industry, means that we do get to see all 30 companies, and we do see the cap structure, and we are able to talk to the other investors, and we are able to look at the debt structure.
而那边的这个投资者，投入的资金量很小，一方面可能永远看不到这个机会，另一方面，可能无法获得我们所说的那种级别的尽职调查材料。
This investor over here who's deploying a tiny amount of money, a, may never see it, access, and b, may not get the access to the diligence material at the level that we would say we require.
所以这是一个非常不对称的行业。
So this is a very asymmetrical industry.
这不公平。
It's not fair.
我不想低估你们。
I don't want to sell you guys short.
我之前提到过，你们管理着1460亿美元的资产。
I had mentioned that you have $146,000,000,000 of assets under management.
还有一部分是非全权委托的，这让你们的总规模超过了1万亿美元。那是什么意思呢？
There is a nondiscretionary piece, which takes you guys over $1,000,000,000,000 What does that mean?
什么是
What are
你为那些客户做什么？
you doing with those clients?
在某些情况下，我们为这些资产提供建议。
So in some cases, we're providing them advice on those assets.
但我们主要做的是监控和管理这些资产。
But what we're mostly doing is we're kind of monitoring and managing those assets.
客户做了投资决定，我们基本上负责处理后续的事情。
The client made the investment decision, and we're essentially kind of dealing with now what happens afterwards.
我们就是后台。
We're the back office.
好的。
Okay.
我这么说吧，我们做所有这些工作。
I'll put this We're doing all of that.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Alright.
我们往回说。
Let's back up.
谈谈我们现在的行业状况。
Talk about the industry where we are today.
持怀疑或悲观看法的人会这么说。
The cynical view or the skeptical view would say this.
故事是这样的。
Here's the story.
我提到了耶鲁模式，当时大家都很兴奋，觉得有那么多超额收益，而且说实话，这对行业和投资者来说都确实效果很好。
I mentioned the Yale model, a lot of excitement, so much alpha, and it worked really well for the industry and for the investors, frankly.
大家都赚得盆满钵满。
Everybody did very well.
而机构投资者平均有30%的资产是私募投资。
And institutional investors on average are 30 private.
不管具体数字是多少，肯定远高于零。
Whatever the number is, it's well above zero.
远高于。
Well above.
然后我们得到了……
And we got...
在2021年前后有一段时间，公开市场和私募市场都有点过于疯狂了。
There was a period of time in twenty twenty one ish where both public and certainly private markets got a little bit drunk.
我不是在指责谁，因为我们都参与了那场狂欢。
And I'm not pointing fingers because we were all involved in the same party together.
当时有很多草率的行为和糟糕的投资，现在距离那时候已经过去五年了。
And there was a lot of sloppy behavior and a lot of bad investments, and we're now five years removed from that.
人们原本期望的一些回报并没有出现。
And some of the returns that people had hoped to get are not showing up.
所以这是一个飞轮，它转得没有以前那么快了，因为很多退出案例，我们都没看到。
And therefore, this is a flywheel, and it's not spinning as fast as it was because, a lot of the exits, we're not we're not seeing.
我觉得退出交易量同比下降了25%。
I think exits are down 25% year over year.
大概是这样吧。
Whatever it is.
大家都知道怎么回事。
Everybody knows the story.
但是，Daniel，看第二个图表，这得归功于你们。
But, Daniel, short chart two, and credit to you guys.
这是来自……
This is from...
哦，不。
Oh, no.
这是你提供的。
This is from you.
我是不是拿了一些……
Did I pull some...
这是我从PitchBook上拉下来的。
I pulled this from from PitchBook.
也许是从你的PitchBook资料里来的。
Maybe it's from your deck from PitchBook.
所以，全球私募市场募资，我们看的是封闭式基金募资……
So global private markets fundraising, and we're looking at a closed end funding...
按大类资产分类。
By broad asset classes.
不管你看的是实物资产、信贷还是股权，
And it doesn't matter if you're looking at real assets or credit or equity.
都在下降。
It's down.
这时候财富管理经理就登场了。
So in comes the wealth manager.
个人投资者基本上是从零开始进来的。
Incomes the individual investor who is basically at zero.
然后还有……
And there was...
这个故事，其实很明显。
The story, it's very obvious.
所以，持怀疑态度的人会说，好吧，这就是个人投资者和他们的退出流动性。
So the cynical take would say, all right, here's individual investors and their exit liquidity.
我觉得媒体，也不是说他们错，我不是说那种“哎呀，媒体”怎么样。
And I think the the, media, not wrongly, so I'm not saying like, oh, the media.
但他们确实在大肆渲染这个故事，而且一直在跟进。
But they've harped on the story in a big way, and they're running with it.
我觉得这也不是完全不公平。
And I don't think it's completely unfair.
那么，你怎么回应那种怀疑的说法，就是“是啊，机构投资者已经满了”。
So how do you answer the cynical version of, well, yeah, institutional investors are full.
他们没法再投入资金了。
They can't deploy any money.
他们的钱拿不回来了。
They're not getting their money back.
最后接盘的还是普通老百姓。
Mom and dad are are gonna hold the bag.
所以我觉得这不算悲观。
So I don't think that's cynical.
我觉得第一部分一点都不悲观。
I think the first part of that's not cynical at all.
那是事实。
It's factually accurate.
我们把它拆开来看。
So let's break it into pieces.
听众们没听到我在你说话的时候一直点头，
And the listeners weren't hearing me nodding along as you were...
表示同意你的观点。
In agreement with you as you were talking.
疫情期间和疫情后，出现了很多醉酒式的糟糕行为，付出了高昂的代价，充满了狂热，还有很多有问题的承保。
Drunken bad behavior coming out of COVID and during COVID, high prices paid, a lot of euphoria, a lot of questionable underwriting.
资金流动性很强。
Money was very fluid.
资金量很大。
There was lots of it.
融资进展非常快。
Fundraising was happening very quickly.
人们都是远程操作，尽职调查也做得有问题。
People were doing all of that remotely, questionable diligence.
所以这一切都发生了。
So all of that happened.
这些都是事实。
All of that's true.
但这并不是说每个人都这样，因为，再说一次，我回到我之前说的分化问题。
That's not to say everybody did that because, again, I go back to my dispersion comment.
我们看到那些年份的业绩分化，这差不多就是我们行业里怎么看待这件事的方式。
The dispersion that we're seeing for those vintage years, which is kinda how we as the industry think about it.
所以2021年经理人之间的差距，最好的和最差的，2022年最好的和最差的，2023年最好的和最差的，差距真的很大，因为大家的行为并不一致。
So the difference between the managers in 2021, the best to worst in 2022, best to worst, 2023 best to worst, really wide gapping because the behavior wasn't uniform.
所以有些人很清醒，他们没去参加派对，实际上做了非常明智的选择。
And so you had people who were sober, and they weren't at the party, and they were actually making really good choices.
所以业绩表现差异非常大。
So really wide performance.
但确实的是，如果我们把整个行业作为一个整体来看，过去三到五年，它一直落后于公开市场。
But what is true is if we take the industry as a whole, a, for the last three to five years, it's been lagging the public markets now.
我们可以……
We can...
我想我们都同意，公开市场表现非常火热。
I think we can agree the public markets have been on fire.
我不会怪你们落后。
I wouldn't I wouldn't fault you guys for lagging.
我们可以争论这是理性还是不理性。
We we can debate rational or irrational.
如果你看看行业的权重，比如标普500和私募市场之间的差异，行业权重真的很不一样。
And if you look at the industry weightings between kinda what's in the S and P 500 and what's in the private markets, the industry weightings are really different.
所以这并不令人惊讶，但确实它们一直在落后。
So that's not shocking, but it is true that they've been lagging.
而且完全属实，不是讽刺，是事实，分配大幅下降了。
It's also completely true, factually, not cynically, factually, the distributions are way down.
所以我把分配看作是总流动性占行业净资产价值的百分比。
And so I think about distributions as kind of total liquidity provided as a percentage of sort of the industry's net asset value.
这是一种按规模标准化的方式，而且它下降了。
That's a way to kind of normalize for size, and it's down.
一直在下降。
It's been down.
另外一点，同样不是讽刺，是事实，持有期在延长。
And so what the other piece is, again, not cynical, factual, holding periods are going up.
所以这些都是千真万确的。
So all of that is absolutely true.
我觉得这和“现在散户投资者开始进场”这个想法没什么关系。
I think that's uncorrelated to the idea of, well, now the retail investor is is entering.
因为这不只是说有人想把资产从机构投资者手里卖到个人投资者手里。
Because the idea is not simply people are trying to sell assets out of the institutional bucket and sell them into the individual bucket.
我觉得个人投资者进入这个资产类别，更多是因为一些结构变化、监管调整，还有新的基金结构出现，这些都为散户创造了合适的投资工具。
I think the rise of the of the individual investor into the asset class, I think, has to do with more about some changing structures, some regulation change, the invention of some different fund structures that kinda create vehicles that work for them.
但毫无疑问，这确实帮助缓解了一些募资压力。
But there's no question that that is helping to kind of offset some of the fundraising pressure that has occurred.
但是，私募市场中，以任何形式参与散户投资的基金经理数量，
But the number of fund managers in the private markets who are participating in any way, shape, or form in...
真的是少得可怜，少得不能再少了。
With the individual investor is, like, teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny.
你这话是什么意思？
What do you mean by that?
20家公司。
20 firms.
20家拥有可行业务、真正在募集资金的公司。
20 firms that have viable franchises that are actually raising capital.
但它们是最大的公司。
But they're the biggest firms.
它们确实是最大的公司。
They are the biggest firms.
回到我们之前说的，有成千上万家公司。
What we what we go back to, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of firms.
那些公司完全没有参与这件事。
None of those people are participating in this at all.
它们可能庆幸自己没参与。
And they're probably happy they didn't.
一家都没有。
None of them.
他们就得跟着这个……一起起落。
Well, they're gonna live and die with the...
机构那边的体验怎么样，他们就怎么样。
How the institutional experience goes.
我是说，那就是他们的市场。
I mean, that that is their market.
所以……
There...
他们没法转到墙那边去。
There's no migration for them over to the other side of the wall.
他们做不到。
They can't do it.
他们就是……
They're in...
他们只做机构基金，就这样。
They're institutional funds only, period.
就这样。
End of story.
这没法改变。
There's no changing that.
所以他们的业绩记录和生存能力完全取决于他们的回报如何，以及机构投资者怎么看他们。
So their track record, their ability to survive is gonna be completely dictated on how their returns are, how the institutional investor sort of sees them.
你展示的那个募资图表有点误导性。
The fundraising chart you showed is a little misleading.
你说得对。
So you said it correctly.
那是封闭式募资，但仅此而已。
That that is closed end fundraising, but that's it.
就是这样，没别的了。
Like, period.
所以这并没有显示永续部分。
That's So it doesn't show the evergreen part of
是吗？
it?
它没有显示永续基金的部分。
It doesn't show the evergreen part.
它也没有显示的是，正如你所知，因为你提到过，那里……
What it also doesn't show is, as as you know, because you've talked about it, there...
有一种崛起……
There's a rise of...
我们的二级市场一直在增长。
Our secondary world has been rising.
所以人们交易基金，购买其他有限合伙人的份额，这就是我们的二级市场。
So people trading funds, buying other LP stakes, that's sort of our secondary world.
等等。
So wait.
我们肯定会谈到那一点的。
We'll we'll definitely get there.
我能
Can I
说一句话吗？
just say one thing?
所以这个也没有显示出来。
So that's that's not captured here either.
抱歉打断你，但我觉得故事里还有一个关键点，就是2022年。
So sorry to cut you off, but one other piece of the story that I think is critical, critical, critical, is 2022.
我还想确保能问你，你怎么看待投资那些面向零售的公司，而不仅仅是机构。
I also want to make sure that I get to ask you how you view the investing alongside the companies that are going to retail versus just the institutional.
我们一定要聊到那个。
Wanna make sure we get to that.
但是，好吧，2022年对私人信贷来说是一场完美的风暴，因为债券被打击了，60...
But, okay, 2022 was the perfect storm in a good way for private credit because bonds got smoked, the '60...
而且它把股票也拖下水了，而你有一个实际上负相关的东西。
And it brought down stocks with it, and you had this thing that was actually negatively correlated.
展开剩余字幕（还有 478 条）
私人信贷还有浮动利率这个特点。
You had the floating rate aspect of private credit.
太棒了。
Amazing.
所以你在久期上没有受到冲击。
So you didn't get hit on the duration.
而且神奇的是，实际上并没有出现信贷周期。
And miraculously, there wasn't really a credit cycle.
所以2022年，当私人信贷获得10%到12%的回报时，不管具体是多少，对吧？
And so investors in 2022 when private credit got 10% to 12%, whatever it was, okay?
而债券却下跌了15%。
While bonds were down 15%.
然后导火索就点燃了，资金非常非常快地涌入。
And then the fuse was lit and the money came pouring in very, very fast.
同意。
Agree.
我再补充几个观点。
I'm going to throw in a few more ands.
请讲。
Go ahead.
为什么会有私人信贷？
Why does private credit exist?
因为如果回到二十年前，你我在中西部经营一家木材生意
Because if we went back twenty years ago and you and I owned a lumber business in the Midwest
那叫百吉饼生意。
It's called bagel business.
我来自长岛。
I'm from Long Island.
好。
Great.
那就这么办。
Let's do that.
我们想出去，然后，然后，做点什么……
And we wanna go out and and and make some sort of...
我们想扩张。
We wanna expand.
我们想开店。
We wanna open.
我们得去筹点资金来做这件事。
We gotta go we gotta go get some capital to do that.
我们不想放弃股权，因为我们喜欢我们的贝果公司。
We don't want to go, like, give up our equity because we like our bagel company.
所以通常我们会怎么做呢？就是你和我穿上最帅的西装，打上领带，然后走到我们存贝果生意支票的那家地区银行去。
And so what we would have typically done is you and I would have put on our best looking suits and ties, and we would have marched down to the regional bank where we, by the way, keep our checking account for our bagel business.
我们会跟那边的负责人说，嘿。
And we would have talked to our guy there and said, hey.
我们需要贷款。
We need a loan.
那曾经是私营企业融资的一大来源。
That was a big provider of where, you know, private businesses got financed.
这就是那个经典的故事，你知道，当地银行认识镇上所有的企业主，然后给他们提供资金。
That's the classic story of that, you know, that local bank that, you know, they know all the business owners in that town, and they're kind of providing capital to them.
但这种情况已经消失了。
Well, that went away.
地区银行及其放贷能力和意愿都大幅下降了。
The regional banks and their ability to lend and their desire to lend has gone away dramatically.
而企业的资金需求并没有消失，所以必须有东西来填补这个空缺。
And so the capital need from the companies didn't go away, so something needed to replace it.
于是，私人信贷就应运而生，实际上以更大规模、可能更专业的方式，取代了地区银行向私营企业放贷的角色。
And so in comes private credit, effectively taking the place in a more scaled, maybe more professional, in some cases, lending to private companies in lieu of what the regional banks were doing.
所以，这算是这个问题的第一部分。
So that's that's sort of the first part of the equation.
这本身并不是坏事。
And that's not bad.
这些都不坏。
None of that's bad.
我是说，这正是我们经济运转的推动力。
I mean, that's sort of what makes our economy flywheel work.
就像你希望人们去创业，希望我们扩大贝果生意，希望所有这些事情发生。
It's like you want people to be entrepreneurs, and you want us to expand our bagel business, and you want all those things to happen.
所以到目前为止，这没什么问题。
So at this point, there's nothing wrong with that.
现在我们说到你的观点，也就是我所说的故事的中段。
Now we go to your point, which is kind of what I'll call the middle of the story.
导火索已经点燃，等等等等。
So fuse is lit, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
大量资金涌入。
A lot of capital comes coming in.
但接下来发生的是，私人信贷公司的数量也呈指数级增长，因为鲍勃和莎莉，他们原本在这家大型私人信贷公司工作，心想：这里有很多钱可以赚。
Well, what happens is the number of private credit firms also grows exponentially because Bob and Sally, who were working for this big large private credit firm, are like, there's a lot of money to be had out here.
得去放点贷款。
Gotta make some loans.
我们要自己开一家。
We're gonna start our own.
所以他们跳出来，自己开了家私人信贷公司。
So they spin out and they go start their own private credit shop.
然后他们雇的那个人，你知道的，他们公司里的汤米，也跳出来自己开了家私人信贷公司。
And then the person that they hired, you know, Tommy in their shop also spins out and he starts his own private credit shop.
所以一下子，就有好多经理都跳出来，创建了无数家私人信贷公司。
So all of a sudden, you have a whole bunch of managers kind of getting spinouts and kind of creating lots and lots of other private credit firms.
这里我们得加个括号说明一下。
We should put in parentheses here.
括号，这些人里头有很多从来没经历过经济下行周期，因为他们都挺年轻的。
Parentheses, a whole lot of these people had never been operating in a down cycle because they're pretty young.
所以这就是我们现在所处的状况。
And so that's where we sit here today.
所以大家问我关于整个私人信贷的问题，我们之前聊过整个……
So what I get asked about the whole private credit, so we had the whole...
到处都是蟑螂。
There's cockroaches everywhere.
不过，目前的数据还没有真正证明这一点。
Well, we haven't really seen the data bear that out yet.
差不多两年前了。
Almost two years ago.
我们还在等。
We're waiting.
还在观察。
Still looking.
但这并不是说没有问题，因为我可以告诉你，我们能看到问题。
Now it's not to say there aren't problems because I will tell you, we can see it.
确实有一些私人信贷投资组合存在问题。
There are absolutely private credit portfolios that have problems.
风险太高，不够分散，
Too risky, not diversified,
也许软件方面是这样。
With the software maybe.
对。
Yep.
贷款标准有问题。
Questionable lending standards.
但再说一次，这又回到了我们之前说的分散性。
But again, this is back to our dispersion comment.
我看了很多私募信贷基金经理的账本，包括我们自己的，其中99%的项目都在正常运作。
I got plenty of private credit fund managers, I'm looking through their books, including our own, where I go 99% of the stuff is performing.
我没看到任何问题。
I'm not seeing any cockroaches.
一切正常。
Things are fine.
所以我觉得这个领域以后真的很难一概而论，因为我觉得……
So I think this is becoming a space where it's gonna be really hard to paint with an overly broad brush because I think what...
五年后，希望我们还能坐在这里，然后我们会说，哇。
Fast forward five years, you and I are gonna be back sitting here hopefully, and we're gonna be talking about, wow.
私人信贷里既有非常成功的例子，也有非常糟糕的失败案例，差距特别大。
Private credit had this really big gapping of great examples of it working and really terrible examples of it not working.
发生这种事，我理解为什么从专家到媒体都抓住不放。
When this happened, I understand why everybody from pundits to the media latched on.
这真是个非常吸引人的故事。
It's a very juicy juicy story.
哦，当然。
Oh, sure.
就像，这确实是个好故事。
Like, it's it's a great story.
我想起了BREIT K发生的事。
I was reminded of what happened with BREIT K.
当时他们需要的不是救助，但我觉得是CalPERS投入了一大笔资金。
When they needed, not a rescue, but I think it was CalPERS that threw in a big infusion of capital.
而且房地产确实存在严重的问题，尤其是写字楼。
And there was legitimately massive problems in real estate, particularly the office space.
这一点没人会否认。
Nobody would deny it.
那已经是四五年前的事了。
And we're four or five years removed from that.
他们现在还在。
They're still around.
他们没有归零。
They didn't they didn't go to zero.
而且做得不错。
And doing well.
而且经营得很好。
And doing fine.
所以，以我对私人信贷行业的那点了解，我不觉得这会变成……
So with what little I understand about the private credit industry, I don't believe that this is, like, going to be...
我不觉得五年后我们会说，天哪。
I don't think that in five years we're gonna say, holy cow.
你们还……
Could you...
你们还记得私人信贷吗？
Do you guys remember private credit?
那会儿还挺有意思的，或者什么的。
That was cute or whatever.
那太离谱了。
That was ridiculous.
百分之百。
A 100.
不是……
It's not...
就是……
It's...
我觉得它会比现在大很多。
I think it's gonna be a lot bigger than it is today.
绝对会的。
It absolutely will be.
但这里，我还是想跟你一样，不跟着媒体那样说。
But this is where, again, I I will join you in sort of not saying like, the media.
问题是，这个行业的数据还是很难获取。
The problem is is that data around, you know, this industry is hard to come by still.
这挺遗憾的。
That's unfortunate.
你可以看到……
You can see...
我们发布了很多信息，因为我们觉得这样是健康的。
We we put out a lot of information because we think it's healthy.
我宁愿你手里有数据图表，也不愿意你去瞎猜或者推测。
I'd rather you have the chart than trying to sort of guess or speculate.
但如果你看看过去……
But if you look at what's...
就拿过去一年关于这个行业的报道来说，看看有多少故事真的有硬数据、具体例子，而不是大量猜测。
Take the last sort of year of of sort of coverage about the industry And look at how many of those stories actually had hard data, specific examples versus a lot of speculation.
而且有一位不愿透露姓名的消息人士指出，可能有很多问题即将出现。
And one off the record source noted that there's probably a lot of problems coming.
只是我们变得非常喜欢猜测可能的问题，因为我同意你的看法。
It's just we've we've become very speculative around what problems might because I agree with you.
这确实很劲爆。
It's juicy.
点进去看很有趣。
It's fun to click on.
标题也很吸引人。
It's interesting headlines.
但我还是想说，咱们把数据摆到桌面上来讨论吧。
But I kinda go back to, like, let's bring data to the discussion, and then let's talk about this.
你知道的，目前来说还行。
You know that it's okay for now.
我不是说完全没有问题或者不会有麻烦，但如果真有什么苗头，那肯定是一条接一条的头条新闻了。
And I'm not saying that there's not smoke or that there won't be problems, but if there was any inklings of a problem, it would be headline after headline after headline.
不幸的是，这吓跑了很多个人投资者，因为我们还是看到大量资金从私人信贷基金中流出。
Unfortunately, that spooked a lot of individual investors because we're still seeing outflows from a lot of private credit funds.
今天早上，Apollo Debt Solutions BDC 大约有260亿美元。
Apollo this morning, Apollo Debt Solutions BDC has about $26,000,000,000.
那真是个大数目。
That's huge.
据彭博社报道，周二他们告诉投资者，在14.7%的投资者想要撤资后，他们再次将赎回上限设定为流通股的5%，而上一季度是16.8%，仍然很高。
Told investors on Tuesday, this was in Bloomberg, that it would again cap withdrawals at 5% of outstanding shares after 14.7% sought to pull their cash, from 16.8% last quarter, still.
所以我有个问题想问你。
So I have a question for you.
这该怪谁呢？
Who's responsible for this?
是不是……
Is it...
而且这不是一个人的错。
And it's not one person's fault.
是不是私人信贷公司拿了太多钱，到处乱投。
Is it the private credit companies just getting so much money and just spraying it around.
也许我用这个词……
Maybe I'm using that term...
你知道，用“乱投”这个词可能有点夸张，但承销标准确实很马虎，因为钱源源不断进来，必须得投出去。
You know, being a little aggressive with that term spraying, but sloppy underwriting standards because money's coming in, it's got to be deployed.
是不是他们的批发商没有好好教育顾问的错？
Is it the fault of their wholesalers not educating the advisers?
是不是顾问的错？
Is it the fault of the adviser?
因为世界上最好卖的东西就是10%到12%的票息，而且还没有波动。
Because the easiest thing in the world in the world to sell is 10 to 12% coupons with no volatility.
谁不想要这个呢？
Who doesn't want that?
那是不是投资者的错呢？不是说要去指责最终投资者，而是他们其实没真正搞明白自己买的是什么。
Is it the investor's fault for not not to point fingers at the end investor, but for not really understanding what they're getting through?
因为他们把尽职调查都外包给了理财顾问。
Because they're outsourcing their diligence to the adviser.
最终责任还是在理财顾问身上。
It's the adviser ultimate.
责任就到此为止了。
The the buck stops there.
但现在投资者都在撤资，这可能是理性的，因为我们接下来会讲到估值。
But now the investors are pulling out, which might be rational because we'll get to this, the marks.
估值其实都没怎么跌。
The marks aren't even down really.
所以一个理性的投资者可能会想，如果已经有烟雾冒出来，如果会有问题，而且我能拿到一美元换
And so a rational investor might think, well, if there's smoke coming and if there will be problems and I can get a dollar for
一美元，那我为什么还要留在这里？
a dollar, why the hell would I stick around?
这是理性的行为。
That's rational behavior.
所以把这一切拆开来看。
So unpack all of that.
所以我觉得现在诚实的答案是，现在说还为时过早，我们来分解一下。
So I think the honest answer right now is it's too early to tell, and let's break it down.
有……
There are...
尽管有各种头条新闻，但今天的数据还不足以告诉你，你会看到那个领域出现巨大的业绩下滑。
Despite all the headlines, there's not enough data today to say to you that you're gonna see huge performance declines across that segment.
事实上，目前的数据表明，我们并没有看到破产案例显著增加。
In fact, the data right now indicates that we're not seeing bankruptcies rising materially.
违约率基本上维持在2%左右。
Default rates are basically sitting around 2%.
所以这显示出投资组合相当健康。
And so that sort of is showing you a pretty healthy book.
另外，很多管理人，尤其是那些大型上市私募信贷公司，在财报电话会上非常直言不讳地谈论投资组合质量、有多少是以现金支付形式存在、有多少实际上转为实物支付，其实并不多。
Also, lot of the managers, certainly those that are big private credit that are publicly traded, have been very vocal on earnings calls about quality of the portfolio, how much is sitting in cash pay, how much is actually flipped over to pick, not that much.
所以今天他们说，嘿。
And so today, they're saying, hey.
估值没问题，因为我在估值，而且投资组合表现良好，但你仍然看到大量资金撤出。
The marks are fine because I'm marking and the portfolio is performing, but you're still seeing huge withdrawals.
那我们先从撤资这部分说起。
So let's start with the with the withdrawal part first.
这该怪谁呢？
Who's to blame for that?
我觉得这个行业还比较新兴。
I think what you have is this industry is pretty nascent.
想想看，个人投资者投资私募信贷基金的机会才出现多久。
Think about how long you've had a chance for individual investors to invest in private credit funds.
也就几年吧。
Couple years.
对。
Yes.
不。
No.
这确实很新。
It's very new.
所以我这么说，你懂的，是客气话。
And so I'll use this word, you know, kindly.
整个领域还不够成熟，这并不奇怪。
There is an immaturity around this whole space that is not surprising.
如果你才做了几年，没有大量数据，教育也还处于早期阶段，因为你刚开始做，你的顾问也差不多，他们也是刚开始接触，刚开始了解和研究这个领域。
If you've only done it for a couple of years and you don't have tons and tons of data and your education is still in its early phases because you just started doing it, and your adviser is also in a similar spot where they just started doing it too, and they've just started to kind of read about this, and they've just started to study about it.
在这样的背景下，加上铺天盖地的新闻标题，人们感到非常恐慌也就不奇怪了。
It's not surprising with that as the backdrop that with a kind of avalanche of headlines that people get pretty spooked.
因为，比如说，我不一定要继续待在里面。
Because, like, I don't have to stay in.
我宁愿在鸡尾酒会上被问到，比如，嘿。
I'd rather be at the cocktail party when I get asked like, hey.
你投资私募信贷了吗？
Are you in private credit?
然后我就说，没有。
To to be like, nope.
不是我。
Not me.
而不是像这样，是的。
As opposed to be like, yeah.
有什么问题吗？
Is there a problem?
你有没有读过那篇……
Have you read that...
你知道，就像，你有没有读过那50篇文章？
You know, it's like, have you read these 50 articles?
我真的不太想那样回答。
I I don't really wanna answer that sort of in that manner.
我宁愿说，不是我。
I'd rather be like, not me.
我很聪明。
I'm smart.
我不在那儿。
I'm not there.
所以我觉得这种情况很多。
So I think there's a lot of that.
就像，我打算去……
It's sort of like, I'm just gonna go and...
我就直接回家了。
I'm just gonna go home.
我真的不想掺和这事儿。
I don't really wanna be around this.
我有点紧张。
I'm sort of nervous.
而且，从顾问的角度来看，风险是不对称的。
Well, also, the risks are asymmetric from the adviser's point of view.
完全同意。
100%.
一方面，如果你觉得自己给的建议是对的——我相信所有顾问都这么想——你当然可以据理力争，坚持己见，说，听我说。
On the one hand, if you think you're giving proper advice, and I think all advisers do, sure you could really fight and push back and say, listen.
我理解你的顾虑。
I understand your concerns.
我会坚持我的立场，好吗？
I'm sticking I'm sticking to my guns Okay.
然后你错了，结果客户把你解雇了。
And then you're wrong, and it turns And out your client And you're fired.
完全正确。
100%.
或者如果你把钱退给客户，是的，你可能会因为推荐了没效果的东西而显得像个傻瓜，但你没事。
Or if you give your client a dollar back, yeah, you might look like sort of a jackass for recommending something that didn't work out, but you're fine.
你不会被解雇。
You're not getting fired.
完全正确。
100%.
顺便说一句，你把钱退给他们，然后根据你选择投资什么，嗯，
By the way, you give them their dollar back, and depending on what you choose to put it in Well,
买债券，买债券。
buy well, buy bonds.
你实际上可能看起来像个英雄。
It's You you could actually look like a hero.
你可以说，我躲过了这个，我做了那个。
You could be like, well, I got out of this, and I did this.
好的。
Okay.
所以我同意你的看法。
So I'm with you.
就像，我说，是的。
Like, I go, yep.
那个……
That...
对我来说，这些都不太意外。
None of that to me is all that surprising.
顺便说一句，我觉得再过几年，这种情况会越来越少。
By the way, I think fast forward a few years, this will happen less and less.
更多的数据，更多的成熟，更多的经验，更愿意坚持到底。
More data, more maturity, more experience, more willingness to kinda stick through things.
想想顾问是怎么看待公共市场出现恐慌性事件的。
Think about the adviser through a lens of something happens that's panicky in the public market.
你知道，以前他们可能会说，好吧。
You know, back in the day, they might have been like, okay.
我们得赶紧变现。
We got to get liquid.
现在那些顾问会说，嘿。
Now those advisors say that, hey.
冷静点。
Calm down.
我们现在不会撤资。
We're not we're not pulling out right now.
我们正处于低谷。
We're at a trough.
我们会挺过去的。
Like, we're gonna ride this back out.
就像，跟着我的思路来。
Like, stay with me here.
客户也确实这么做了。
And the client does.
在信贷方面，我们来看另一个数据点。
On the credit side, let's go and look at a different data point.
机构投资者在做什么？
What's the institutional investor doing?
因为他们没有那种动态。
Because they don't have that dynamic.
那个机构投资者的首席投资官需要自己做出决定，并且要坚持下去。
That CIO of that institutional investor needs to own that decision making and and needs to sort of hang with it.
现在，你仍然看到机构投资者在把资金投入私人信贷。
There, you're continuing to see institutional investors moving money into private credit right now.
所以对于汉密尔顿巷来说，我们实际上是在头条风暴的风口浪尖上推出了一款半流动性信贷产品，而这个产品是由一个养老基金种子投资的。
So for Hamilton Lane, we actually launched a semi liquid credit product right in the eye of the headline hurricane that was seeded by a pension fund.
到处都是头条新闻。
Headlines going off everywhere.
养老基金非常成熟、非常聪明，他们说，是的。
Pension fund, very sophisticated, very smart, says, yeah.
我看到了那些头条新闻。
I see the headlines.
我也看到了……
I see...
同时也看到了数据，但我没看出有什么问题。
Also see the data, and I'm not seeing a problem.
我加入。
I'm in.
行为不同。
Different behavior.
我觉得好笑的是，我们花了那么多时间担心私人信贷。
I find it funny that we spend so much time worrying about private credit.
你猜怎么着？
Guess what?
如果信贷质量差，那股权会是什么样？
If the credit's bad, what does the equity look like?
这又是我要回到的另一个点。
This was the other part that, again, I go back to.
我这么说其实是客气的，因为……
And, I'm saying this kindly because it's it's...
我……
I...
这……就是……
It's it's just...
这……
It's...
我觉得这是意料之中的。
I think it's to be expected.
你简直能看到顾问和投资者排队从信贷基金里赎回，然后填表去投股权基金。
You were literally seeing advisers and investors lining up to redeem out of a credit fund and then filling out the sub docs to go into an equity fund.
完全反了。
Backwards.
这就像，各位。
It's like, guys.
这
It's
就像，那我们聊聊二级市场吧，因为这是你们特别活跃的领域。
like So let's talk about secondaries because this is an area where you guys are super active.
而且我……
And I...
好。
Okay.
一方面，退出流动性一直不足。
On the one hand, there has been a lack of exit liquidity.
所以很多LP会说，好吧，我们觉得这个值一块钱。
And so a lot of LPs say, okay, we think this is worth a dollar.
我愿意出89美分。
I'll take 89¢.
我愿意出91美分。
I'll take 91¢.
对。
Okay.
完全合理，理性。
Totally reasonable Rational.
理性的行为。
Rational behavior.
我觉得问题出在，而且媒体也有报道，你们也被点名了，就是第一天的估值上调。
I think where the problem is, and there's been reporting in the headlines, and you guys have been named specifically about this, are the day one markups.
是的。
Yep.
如果你因为规模大、有关系，有幸以91美分买到一个你认为值一美元的东西，那我可以理解你在账上把它记成一美元。
Now if you buy something because you have scale and you have relationships and you are fortunate enough to buy something for 91¢ that you believe is worth a dollar, I could understand you marking on that your books is a dollar.
但我不清楚界限在哪里，可如果你以65美分买到的，它就不值一美元。
And I don't know where the line is, but if you buy something for 65¢, it is not worth a dollar.
所以我不同意。
So I disagree.
那我们聊聊吧。
So let's talk about it.
首先，这不是汉密尔顿巷的做法。
So one, this is not a Hamilton Lane practice.
这是行业惯例，因为这实际上是在遵循会计准则。
This is an industry practice because this is actually following accounting regs.
这听起来像是在为自己辩护。
So that sounds like a very defensive statement.
但这是事实。
But it's true.
但确实是这样。
But it's absolutely true.
你们不是唯一这么做的。
You're not the only ones.
那我们来说说二级市场是怎么运作的。
So let's talk about how the secondary space works.
首先，当我们讨论二级交易时，特别是针对这个初始估值的问题，我们说的是购买基金中的被动LP份额。
One, when we're talking about secondary trades for this for this purpose, because this is the day one mark issue, we're talking about buying a passive LP position in a fund.
所以很多LP都在一个基金里，这就是我们讨论的情况。
So lots of LPs in a fund, that's what we're talking about.
LPX想退出，LPY作为买家接手这个份额。
LPX wants to come out, and LPY steps in as the buyer of that position.
在这种情况下，是GP，也就是基金管理人，在设定估值。
So in that situation, it's the GP, it's the fund manager who's setting the marks.
GP并不知道我们之间发生的任何交易，我们也不需要去找GP。
The GP is unaware of any trades that occur between we don't need to go to the GP.
我们不是……
We're not...
我们没有必要在提交文件时披露LPX已经退出，这样GP就知道我们现在是记录在案的投资者了。
There's no reason for us to disclose that LPX is out when we sort of file paperwork so the GP knows we're now the investor of record.
但这是独立发生的。
But this is happening separate and apart.
所以会计法规之所以这样规定，是因为当你作为被动LP进入时，无论你怎么进来的，估值都以该基金GP告诉你的为准。
So the reason why the accounting regs are what they are, which is when you come in as a passive LP, however you came in, the mark is whatever the GP of that fund tells you it is.
所以如果我们以65美分买入，而GP估值是一美元，我们就必须以一美元入账。
So if we buy something at 65¢ that the GP has marked at a dollar, we have to take it on our books at a dollar.
但你知道，如果GP以一美元的价格卖出65美分的东西，那GP肯定是个白痴。
But you know the GP must be a moron if they're selling a dollar for 65¢.
嗯，GP并没有在卖，是LP在卖。所以，GP说，是的，Johnny需要流动性，不想等十年，或者Johnny对我不信任，所以我说它值一美元。
Well, the GP is not selling it, The LP is So selling what the GP says is, yeah, Johnny needed liquidity and didn't want to wait the ten years or Johnny doesn't have faith in me as the fund manager, and so I say it's worth a dollar.
Johnny认为它只值50美分。
Johnny thinks it's worth 50¢.
所以约翰尼就想，如果能以65美分卖掉，我就是英雄了。
And so Johnny's like, well, if I can sell for 65¢, I'm a hero.
所以有很多例子说明为什么在交易时会出现不同的估值，而且这并不……
So there's lots of examples as to why you're going to have different valuations occurring at the trade time, And that's not...
对我来说，这并不奇怪。
To me, that's just not surprising.
这部分我明白。
I get that part of it.
但是，这么多资金涌入二级市场，这是一个新的资产类别。
But with with so much money coming into secondaries, it's a new asset class.
这难道不会压低超额收益吗？
Doesn't that have to doesn't that have to squish the alpha down?
你不可能以那么大的折扣买到东西，因为别人会说，哇。
You can't possibly buy something at that steep of a discount because somebody else would say, woah.
哇。
Woah.
哇。
Woah.
那我出66美分。
I'll give you 66¢.
完全正确。
100%.
所以，是的。
So, yes.
我的意思是，我觉得这……
I mean, I think that this is...
如果你看长期以来的二级市场定价。
If you look at secondary pricing over long periods of time.
那我们是什么时候做的第一笔二级市场交易？
So when did we do our first secondary deal?
汉密尔顿巷是在2000年做的。
Hamilton Lane did ours in 2000.
我记得，因为那是我做的。
I I remember because I did it.
我当时就是个年轻的分析师，做了那个模型，然后一切就这么发生了。
I was, like, the young analyst and did the model, and and that all happened.
所以我们已经做这个超过二十五年了。
So we've been doing these for over twenty five years.
顺便说一下，2000年那会儿这个行业还非常非常小。
The industry, by the way, back in 2000 was teeny, teeny, teeny tiny.
所以，是的，你说得完全对。
And so, yes, you're absolutely right.
那时候你能拿到很大的折扣，因为买家很少。
And you could get big discounts back then because there was very few buyers.
而今天，第一，买家很多；第二，有很多经纪人帮卖家搞高效的流程，让竞争更激烈。
And today, one, there's a lot of buyers, And two, there's a lot of brokers that sort of help sellers run efficient processes and make it competitive.
所以这些都挺好的。
So all that's fine.
那现在平均折扣大概是多少？
So what's like an average discount today?
现在平均折扣大概在13%左右。
So today, you're probably looking at average discounts running about 13%.
好的。
Alright.
那听起来挺合理的。
So that seems reasonable.
我是说，再说，如果……
I mean, again, for for If
如果我现在需要钱，这个折扣挺合理的。
I needed money, that's like a reasonable discount.
回想十五分钟前，我们聊到持有期有多长，以及要等多久才能拿回资金。
Rewind fifteen minutes when you and I were talking about how long holding periods are and how long you're waiting for capital to get back.
现在能拿到现金，或者再等十年，这中间有折扣也就不奇怪了。
The idea of I can have my cash now or I can wait another ten years, that's not surprising that there's gonna be a discount around that.
还有一点我觉得大家不太明白，这让整个“一天”的问题看起来更吓人。
Here's the other piece that I think people don't understand, and it makes this whole day one issue seem more alarming.
假设你是一家养老基金的首席投资官。
So you are the CIO of a pension fund.
而且，你并不需要流动性。
And by the way, you don't need liquidity.
那你为什么还要在二级市场卖东西呢？
So what are you doing in the secondary space selling stuff?
答案可能是你对估值有自己的看法……
The answer is you might have a view on valuations that are...
这些看法可能和你的某些基金经理不一致，或者你决定不再喜欢某个经理了。
They might be contrary to some of your managers, or you've decided that you don't like manager x anymore.
你没有再投资他们的新基金。
You didn't re up in their new fund.
所以你的团队会说，你看。
And so your team is like, look.
如果我们不再跟他们续投，那我们现在持有的这些仓位就应该卖掉，因为关系已经结束了。
If we're not re upping with them, we should just sell the current positions that we have because it's not an ongoing relationship.
所以你就联系我们，作为潜在买家。
So you call us as a potential buyer.
你就给汉密尔顿·莱恩打电话。
So you call Hamilton Lane.
嘿。
Hey.
我有六只基金想卖。
I've got six funds I wanna purchase.
然后我们说，好的。
And we say, okay.
我们得定一个日期，用来评估这些基金的价值。
We gotta set we gotta set a date on which we're valuing those.
嗯，我们当时……
Well, we went...
你和我之前已经讨论过整个季度报告滞后的问题了。
You and I already talked about the whole quarter lag on the reporting.
如果我们今天，也就是九月中旬，买入一项资产，我们基本上是在用三月份的估值来定价。
If we're buying an asset today in the middle of September, we're basically working off of the March valuation.
嗯，从三月份到现在确实发生了很多变化，但那是我们实际有季度报表的最后记录日期，用来确定我们的定价基准。
Well, that's happened since March, but that's the last sort of date of record that we actually have a quarterly statement for to say, here, this is gonna be what we're pricing off of.
顺便问一下，我们什么时候完成这笔交易？
By the way, when are we gonna close this transaction?
完成这笔交易需要几个月的时间。
It's gonna take a couple months to close the transaction.
所以现在我们基本上是按三月份的日期给你定价。
So now we sort of priced you on a March date.
所以我们说，嘿。
So we said, hey.
按三月份的日期，价格是面值的92%。
It's gonna be 92¢ on the dollar off of the March date.
等到它记到Hamilton Lane账上的时候，其实是一月份才记到我们账上。
By the time it comes on to Hamilton Lane's books, it comes on our books in January.
那用的是九月份的估值。
That's using a September valuation.
所以这里也有时间差，这会导致估值上下波动。
So time is also occurring here, and that's causing valuations to move up or down.
这也太复杂了吧。
This is so complicated.
确实超级复杂，但我们也做了二十五年了，而且SEC一直在盯着这些。
It's super complicated, but it's also been like, we've been doing this for twenty five years, and the SEC has been looking at all this.
有点像……
There's kind of like...
我，我……
I I...
听起来确实挺离谱的，尤其是站在公开股票的角度来看，这也是我们大多数听众……
It it sounds it sounds ridiculous, particularly when you're wearing a public equity hat, which is how most of our listeners-
这不公平，也太假了。
It unfair and fake.
听起来确实就是这样。
It 100% sounds that way.
当你和我们坐在一起，看着我们做这些事的时候——
And when you sort of sit here and sit shoulder to shoulder with us and watch us do this-
对，我明白了。
Yeah, I get it.
你就会觉得，哦，这真的是复杂得离谱。
You sort of go, Oh yeah, this is really weirdly complicated.
所以我说它超级复杂，是从这个角度说的：这不是给只有一百万美元的人准备的。
So when I say it's super complicated, I'm saying that through the lens of this is not for people with a million dollars.
真的不是。
It's just not.
他们根本不可能理解。
They can't possibly understand.
先别管他们需不需要，这真的太过了。
Forget about whether they need it or not, It's just too much.
所以我想换个问题。
So I want to transition to a question.
在最近一次财报电话会议上，你们报告说，截至6月的季度，所有策略的净流入接近6.4亿美元，期末管理资产超过190亿美元。
In the last earnings call, you guys reported that for the quarter ended in June, you generated nearly $640,000,000 of net inflows across all strategies and ended the period with over $19,000,000,000 of AUM.
在我们的半流动性产品中。
In our semi liquids.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yep.
重要的是。
Importantly.
是的。
Yes.
我们没有对任何基金设置赎回限制，而且12只基金中有10只实现了正净流入。
We did not enact gates on any of our funds, and we saw positive net inflow across 10 out of 12 funds.
这非常令人印象深刻。
That is very impressive.
确实。
True.
所以我想问你的问题是，因为很多基金都出现了资金流出，尤其是私人信贷基金，你们如何看待向那些面临散户投资者、有负面新闻和资金流出的公司配置资本？你们是避开它们，还是……
And so the question that I have for you is, because a lot of funds are experienced outflows, particularly private credit funds, how do you think about deploying capital into companies that are facing retail investors that do have the headlines and the negative flows, are you staying away from them or do you...
还是你们……
Or do you...
这不会影响你们的决策吗？
Does that not factor into your thinking?
听着。
Look.
首先，我们非常相信投资组合的构建。
So one, we're big believers in portfolio construction.
你刚才说得对，这在私募市场里其实很少被讨论。
You said it right before, which is it's not really a thing that gets talked about in the private markets.
我们都喜欢谈论自己喜欢的经理或交易，但很少听到有人谈论投资组合构建。
We all like to talk about the manager that we like or the deal, but you rarely hear anybody talk about portfolio construction.
来汉密尔顿巷看看，你会花很多时间在投资组合构建上，因为我们觉得这至关重要。
Come visit us at Hamilton Lane, and you're gonna have a huge part of your day on portfolio construction because we think it's essential.
那么另一个问题是，你有多挑剔？
So the other piece is how picky are you?
在我们的二级市场业务中，我们是个大玩家。
So in our secondary business, we're a big player.
我们投入大量资金。
We deploy a lot of capital.
好的。
Okay.
在一年中我们看到的所有交易机会里，我们实际投资了多少？
Of all the deal flow we see in a given year, how much do we invest in?
不到1%。
Less than 1%.
所以我们拒绝了所见到的99%的项目，这在我们整个投资平台上基本都适用。
So we're saying no to 99% of the stuff that we're seeing, and that kind of holds true sort of across our investment platform.
所以，是的，我们非常关注哪些行业会面临压力，具体哪些公司，谁是它们的贷款方，谁拥有股权，所有这些都变得很重要。
So, yes, we're really mindful about looking at what industries are gonna come under pressure, what companies specifically, who are the lenders into that, who's got the equity, all of that becomes important.
让我回到你之前说的，这不是给百万美元投资者的。
Let me go back to your comment of this isn't for the million dollar investor.
可能确实不是。
It may not be.
然而，我们最坚信的是我们需要更多的教育。
However, what we most believe in is we need a lot more education.
我们需要这样的讨论，让人们能够听到这些并看到数据，然后他们可以决定这是否适合自己。
We need these discussions happening where people can listen to this and see data, and then they can decide whether that's appropriate for them or not.
但我认为目前我们的教育水平还不够，需要提高。
But I think right now, we're still at an undereducated level, and that needs to rise.
好的。
All right.
我知道你时间有限。
I know I don't have you forever.
我想聊聊公开市场是怎么看待这些另类资产管理公司的股权的。
I want to talk about how public markets are viewing the equity of these alternative asset managers.
我一直有个想法，就是，怎么说呢，从大方向来看，这里面可能确实有一些很棒的基金。
I have been of the mindset of, listen, To paint with a broad brush, maybe there's some great funds in here.
当然，肯定有。
Of course, there are, obviously.
但既然能当GP，为什么还要当LP呢？
But why be the LP when you could be the GP?
直接买股权就行了。
Just buy the equity.
股权……
Equity...
公开股票市场对整个资产类别都不太友好，而你们也
Public equity markets have not been kind to the entire asset class, and you guys are
最近确实不太友好。
not Not recently.
你们也没能幸免。
You guys are not immune from that.
所以，丹尼尔，看图表12。
So, Daniel, chart 12.
你们在激励费上表现非常出色。
You guys are killing it on the incentive fees.
2026财年至今，激励费已经达到1.75亿美元。
175, million dollars in incentive fees for fiscal year twenty twenty six so far.
我的意思是，这还在持续增长。
I mean, it's up until the right.
而你们在2022年的时候，这还只是其中的一小部分。
Where you guys were in 2022, it was a fraction of this.
当时是54...
It was 54...
我的意思是，几乎可以忽略不计。
I mean, nothing.
然而你们的股价却几乎被腰斩了。
And yet your stock has almost been cut in half.
再说一次，我得说，你们绝对不是唯一遇到这种情况的。
And again, I should say, you are definitely not alone.
但公开股票投资者到底忽略了什么呢？
But what are public equity investors missing?
因为他们不相信这个故事能持续下去，不相信资金外流会停止，也不相信阿尔法收益真的存在。
Because they do not believe that either the story is sustainable, that the outflows will stop, that the alpha is there.
不管是什么原因，他们就是在质疑。
Whatever it is, they're calling BS.
他们不喜欢这样。
They don't like it.
我同意。
I agree.
所以我猜，作为一个喜欢买打折商品的人，你应该挺兴奋的。
So I assume that you're excited as somebody that likes to buy something discount.
对，是的。
At Yeah.
你怎么看待你公司的公开市场表现？
How do you think about the public marks of your companies?
这挺有意思的。
It's funny.
你知道，作为私募市场的人，我们花了很多时间讨论公开市场可能存在的缺陷，因为当然，关于我们自身缺陷的讨论也从来不缺。
You know, as as the private market person, we we we spend a lot of time talking about why the public markets can be very flawed because certainly there's no shortage of talking about why why we're flawed.
而且我觉得，你知道，公开市场并不总是理性的。
And I think, you know, the public market is not always rational.
我们总喜欢说，哦，市场永远不会错。
We always like to say, oh, the market's never wrong.
市场从来不是这样的。
The market's never this.
你之前也说过。
You said it earlier.
就像你可能会遇到那种一天之内世界好像要崩塌的反应。
It's like you can have this sort of single day reaction where the world like implodes.
但底层公司其实什么都没发生。
Nothing's happened to the underlying companies.
软件。
Software.
就像，天哪。
It's like, oh my god.
全都……
It's all...
它们都要消失了。
They're all going away.
现在它们全都回来了。
Now they're all coming back.
所以对我来说，公开市场的波动总是走极端。
So to me, the public market kind of swings too far in extremes.
不过，这肯定让你很恼火吧。
This has to piss you off, though.
当然。
Sure.
我是说，你看，这确实让我恼火，但我们一直在回购股票。
I mean, look, it pisses me off in what we're doing is we've been buying back stock.
我个人一直在买，所以那些公开的……
I've been personally buying, so all that's publicly...
你知道，公开可查的。
You know, public available.
如果你拿……
If you took...
所以你选择去看激励费。
So you you chose to look at the incentive fees.
你本来可以看任何东西的。
You could have looked at anything.
你可以看利润率、管理费、收益。
You could have looked at margin, management fee, earnings.
这些都在往好的方向发展。
It's all going up into the right.
但你说得对。
But you're right.
公开市场在说，是的，我知道那又是一个好季度，但不可能持续下去。
Public market is saying, yeah, I know that was another good quarter, but it can't continue.
不可能发生的。
It can't happen.
当我们谈到个人投资者的行为，以及他们离开的时候，我有点...
And when we talk about sort of the the sort of individual investor behavior and them sort of leaving, what I sort of...
我现在对这件事越来越强硬了。
And I'm now getting a little more aggressive about this.
我跟人说，把这句话说完。
I say to people, finish the sentence.
他们看着我，说，什么意思？
And they look at me and they go, well, what do you mean?
我说，不。
I go, no.
把这句话说完。
Finish the sentence.
你只说了一半。
You left off half of the sentence.
他们就说，你什么意思……
And they're like, what do you...
我说，好，完整的句子是这样的。
I go, well, here's the full sentence.
他们正在离开私募市场，会把每一分钱的储蓄都投入到公开市场，而公开市场越来越高度相关，主要由大型科技股和人工智能驱动。
They're leaving the private markets, and they're gonna have every dollar of savings in the public markets in a increasingly highly correlated, massively mega cap, AI driven.
他们必须这么做，因为如果他们不投资私募，那就只能回到公开市场。
That's what they have to do because if they're not gonna do the privates, then they have to go back.
他们会不会……
Are they...
难道把钱藏在床垫底下吗？
Aren't gonna put it in their mattress?
我是说，他们还能拿这些钱做什么呢？
I mean, what are they gonna do with it?
我觉得一旦你开始让人们思考这个问题，他们就会有点恍然大悟。
And I think once you start to get people to sort of think about that, I think a little bit of a light goes on.
公开市场不可能是投资者的唯一答案。
The public markets can't be the sole answer for investors.
我们看到上市公司的数量并没有在增长。
We're not seeing a growing number of public companies.
很多公司不想上市。
A lot of companies don't want to be public.
而且顺便说一句，现在没人非得上市。
And by the way, today, no one has to go public.
你可以永远保持私有。
You can stay private forever.
有足够的资本来支持你。
There's plenty of capital to finance you.
投资者应该意识到，当你看像SpaceX这样的公司时，最近有人问我，哦，你担心股价表现吗？
And investors should be realizing that when you look at something like SpaceX, I got asked recently by somebody, oh, are you bothered by how the stock is performing?
我说，我不担心那个。
I go, I'm not bothered by that.
我们的成本基础只是那个股票交易价格的极小极小极小的一部分。
Our cost basis is a teeny, teeny, teeny tiny fraction of where that stock is trading.
Anthropic、AI，所有这些也都一样。
And same thing it's gonna be with Anthropic, AI, all of that.
真正的大钱，其实不是靠公开市场的散户赚到的。
The money is not gonna get made in a major way by the public holders.
那些利润早就被私人投资者拿走了。
It's already been made by the private holders.
当初在它们估值只有几十亿的时候，是这些人在背后支持这些企业，而不是等它们涨到万亿市值的时候才进场。
That's who was backing these businesses when they were a couple billion dollar valuation, not when they're now a trillion dollars.
所以，如果你想全面接触整个经济板块，想要分散风险，想要获得多元化的投资回报，你就得进入私募市场。
And so if you want exposure to the entire set of the economy and if you want diversity, if you want all those things, you're gonna have to come to the private markets.
我觉得这就是现在公众投资者搞错的地方，就是我们在媒体上挨了不少骂。
And I think that's what the public investors are getting wrong right now, which is we're taking some lumps in the media.
顺便说一句，有些批评是有道理的。
And by the way, some of it's well founded.
我可没坐在这儿干瞪眼。
I'm not sitting here.
我们对很多愤世嫉俗的观点其实都挺认同的。
We've been agreeing on a lot of the cynicism stuff.
但长期来看，像我们这样的好公司增长还在继续，而且不会停。
But long term, the growth is continuing for good firms like ourselves, and that's not going to stop.
所以到了某个时候，市场会意识到，哦，原来是这样。
And so at some point, the market will realize like, oh, okay.
这其实是真实且可持续的，然后我们就会回升。
This is this is actually real and sustainable, and and we'll go back.
在你走之前，最后一个问题。
Last question before I let you get out of here.
你是……
Are you...
人们是不是只能通过中介，比如他们的理财顾问，才能买你们的基金，还是他们可以直接通过嘉信理财或富达这些平台买到？
Are people accessing your funds only through intermediaries, like, through their adviser, or are they able to get it just through Schwab or Fidelity or whatever?
他们完全可以直接通过这些平台买到。
So they can a 100% get it directly through those places.
他们也可以……
They can also...
我们还把很多基金做了代币化。
We've also tokenized a bunch of our funds.
下次再聊。
Next conversation.
我们下次再谈。
We'll have next time.
但是所以……
But so...
但是那……
But that's...
你也可以通过那种方式获得。
You can also get it that way.
而且实际上那个门槛低得多。
And that's actually like a a much lower minimum.
比如有些产品最低只要500美元，我觉得这又是一个很有意思的准入渠道。
Like, some of these are like $500 minimums, which I think is just another interesting access point.
好的。
Okay.
埃里克，这太棒了。
Erik, this is great.
我很高兴我们能……
I'm glad that we have the...
你能来这儿澄清事实。
You on on here to set the record straight.
谢谢你这么做。
Thank you for doing this.
谢谢你的这次对话。
Thanks for the conversation.
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