10次枪响：联邦特工在明尼苏达州再夺一命

你好。

Hi.

我是索拉纳·派恩。

I'm Solana Pine.

我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。

I'm the director of video at The New York Times.

多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业能力帮助您理解正在发生的事情。

For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.

现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用程序的“观看”标签页中。

Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.

这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。

It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.

那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。

All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.

您无需成为订阅用户。

You don't have to be a subscriber.

下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始观看。

Download The New York Times app to start watching.

提醒：本集包含暴力描述和粗俗语言。

A warning that this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic language.

来自《纽约时报》，我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯，这里是《每日新闻》。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.

你刚才干了什么？

The fuck did you just do?

你刚才干了什么？

The fuck did you just do?

联邦特工今天开枪打死一名男子后，明尼阿波利斯爆发了愤怒和抗议。

Outrage and protests in Minneapolis after federal agents shoot and kill a man today.

边境巡逻人员于周六在明尼阿波利斯开枪打死了一名男子。

Border patrol agents shot and killed a man in Minneapolis on Saturday.

这是不到一个月内联邦当局与抗议者之间的第二起致命冲突。

The second fatal clash between federal authorities and protesters in less than a month.

你杀了人。

You murdered.

你怎么敢？

How dare you?

目击者视频再次显示，鲁莽、暴力且危险的联邦特工夺走了一名明尼苏达州人的生命。

Eyewitness video shows once again reckless, violent, and dangerous federal agents taking the life of a Minnesotan.

如果这里能发生，那么你的社区也可能发生。

If it can happen here, it can happen in your community too.

这起枪击事件引发了全国范围内的新一轮愤怒和谴责。

The shooting prompted a fresh wave of fury and condemnation across the country.

还要有多少美国人死去或严重受伤，这项行动才会结束？

How many more Americans need to die or get badly hurt for this operation to end?

这令这座一直反抗联邦政府打击移民行动的城市居民感到震惊。

And it horrified residents in the city that has been revolting against a federal government crackdown on immigration.

这名携带武器和弹药、意图阻止联邦执法人员执法行动的个人，实施了国内恐怖主义行为。

This individual who came with weapons and ammunition to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement officers committed an act of domestic terrorism.

这就是事实。

That's the facts.

任何希望和平的人，都不会带着装满两个满弹匣的枪支参加抗议活动。

No one who wants to be peaceful shows up at a protest with a firearm that is loaded with two full magazines.

这根本不是和平抗议，你也不能触碰执法人员。

That is not a peaceful protest, and you do not get to touch law enforcement.

联邦官员声称，这名抗议者是挑衅方，而特工们是出于自卫才采取行动。

Federal officials alleged that the protester was the aggressor and that the agents acted in self defense.

天哪。

Oh my god.

哦，他们刚看到有人冲过去了。

Oh, they just saw somebody go.

不。

No.

但射击的视频直接反驳了这一说法。

But videos of the shooting directly contradict that claim.

今天，我们采访了我们的同事德文·卢姆和埃内斯托·伦敦尼奥，了解了这次枪击事件的经过以及可能的后续发展。

Today, we talked to our colleagues Devin Lum and Ernesto Londonio about how the shooting unfolded and what may come next.

今天是1月26日，星期一。

It's Monday, January 26.

德文，欢迎来到《每日新闻》。

Devin, welcome to The Daily.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

所以，德文，我想现在很多人已经看到了这段非常震撼的视频，内容是明尼苏达州一名叫亚历克斯·普雷蒂的人被联邦特工枪击的场景。

So, Devin, by now, I think a lot of people have seen this really graphic footage of a man named Alex Preti getting shot by federal agents in Minnesota.

国土安全部声称，普雷蒂当时手持手枪朝这些特工逼近，意图实施他们所说的‘大屠杀’。

The Department of Homeland Security claims that Preti was approaching these agents with a handgun, that he was intent on committing what they called, quote, a massacre.

你是我们视觉调查团队的成员，这意味着你花了大量时间分析这次枪击事件及现场的视频资料。

You are a member of our visual investigations team, which means that you have been spending a lot of time analyzing footage from this shooting, from the scene.

那么，你对政府的说法有何看法？

So what do you make of the government's claims?

过去一天半里，我们一直在分析来自不同角度的录像，试图更好地理解射击发生前、发生时和发生后的情况。

We've been analyzing footage from various different angles over the past day and a half trying to better understand what took place before, during, and after the shooting.

是的。

Mhmm.

联邦政府和州政府之间对发生了什么存在争议，我们正尽最大努力通过清晰、深入地梳理视觉证据来解决这一争议。

You know, there is contention over what happened between the federal government and the state government, and we're doing our best to resolve that contention by walking through the visual evidence as clearly and as in-depth as we possibly can.

我们的分析中有一个非常明显、与政府发布的故事及射击后立即出现的叙述相矛盾的事实：普雷迪在与联邦特工开始互动时，以及整个互动过程中，手中并没有拿着枪。

The one thing that's blatantly clear in our analysis that contrasts with the narrative that the administration put out there and the immediate aftermath of the shooting is that Prady was not holding a gun when he began interacting with the federal agents or throughout the entirety of their interaction.

相反，他手里拿着一部手机。

Instead, he's holding a cell phone.

德文，你能描述一下当时的场景吗？

And can you just set the scene, Devin?

在你们分析的录像开头，我们看到了什么？

At the beginning of the footage that you've been analyzing, what do we see?

当时发生了什么？

What's going on?

视频开始时，两名抗议者在明尼阿波利斯的一条街道上，一家甜甜圈店前与一名联邦特工互动。

The footage begins with two protesters interacting with a federal agent on a street in Minneapolis in front of a donut shop.

我们可以看到，普雷蒂正走进街道，伸出手臂，手持手机拍摄这一互动过程。

We can see that Pretty is walking into the street with his outstretched arm, holding his cell phone, recording the interaction.

在这一刻，他看起来只是一个旁观者。

He appears to be an observer in this moment.

他站在离互动发生地点较远的地方，你知道的。

He's standing, you know, further away from where that interaction is taking place

嗯。

Mhmm.

并且用他空着的手指挥交通。

And appears to be directing traffic with his free hand.

之后事情是如何升级的？

And how do things escalate from there?

与街道上两名抗议者互动的特工开始将抗议者推向普雷蒂先生的方向。

The agent who is interacting with the two protesters standing in the street begins to push the protesters in the direction of mister Preti.

最终，他们朝他站立的方向走来。

And eventually, they make their way towards where he's standing.

所以在进入细节之前，我想先说，接下来的这些瞬间发生得非常快。

So before I get into the details, I just wanna say that these next moments happen very quickly.

从事情开始升级到最后一枪响起，仅仅过去了四十多秒。

From the time that things started to escalate until the final shot is fired, just over forty seconds elapsed.

哇。

Wow.

他们到达后，警员将其中一名抗议者推倒在地，亚历克斯·普雷蒂立即介入，站在警员和刚刚被推倒的女子之间。

Once they get there, the agent pushes one of the protesters to the ground, and Alex Pretty steps in between the agent and the woman who has just been pushed to the ground.

警员开始向他喷射胡椒喷雾。

The agent begins firing pepper spray at him.

在那一刻，我们可以看到他仍然握着手机，另一只手也是自由的。

In that moment, we can see that he's still holding his cell phone, and his other hand is still free.

是的。

Mhmm.

然后亚历克斯·普雷蒂转过身，似乎想帮助那位被推倒在地的女性站起来，而特工继续向他们两人喷射胡椒喷雾。

Then Alex Pretty turns around to apparently try to help the woman who's been pushed to the ground up to her feet, and the agent continues firing pepper spray at both of them.

几名特工出现在普雷蒂先生身后，开始拉扯他，试图将他按倒在地。

Several agents appear behind mister Preti and begin pulling him in order to get him down to the ground.

一旦他倒地，其他几名特工便按住他不放。

Once he's down on the ground, several other agents are holding him down.

他们抓住他的腿。

They're grabbing at his legs.

是的。

Mhmm.

他们推他的背部，似乎在反复击打他。

They're pushing him in his back, and they appear to be striking him repetitively.

是的。

Mhmm.

另一名特工走向人群，伸开双手朝亚历克斯·普雷蒂走去。

Another agent walks towards the scrum and reaches toward Alex Preti with open hands.

当时不清楚他为什么去抓他。

It's unclear at that moment why he's grabbing at him.

但几秒钟后，我们不断听到有人重复喊着‘他有枪’。

But a few seconds later We hear someone saying he's got a gun over and over again.

他们反复地说着这句话。

They say it repetitively.

这意味着他们可能直到他倒地的那一刻才意识到他身上有枪。

Meaning that they might not have realized that he had a gun until that moment when he's on the ground.

没错。

Exactly.

而且，再回看视频，从互动开始到现在，没有任何视觉迹象表明警察知道他携带了武器。

And again, looking back at the footage, from any point of the interaction up until now, there is no visual giveaway that would indicate that agents knew that he was armed.

接下来发生了什么？

So what happens next?

一旦他被制服并倒在地上，场景是如何发展的？

How does the scene unfold from there once he's restrained and on the ground?

那位伸出手臂进入混乱人群的特工，从亚历克斯·普雷蒂的腰间夺下了枪支。

The agent who reached into the scrum with open hands grabs a firearm from Alex Preti's waist.

是的。

Mhmm.

在普雷蒂的枪被夺走大约一秒钟后，另一名特工开了第一枪。

Then about one second after Preti's gun has been removed, another agent fires the first shot.

所以他能看到另一名特工从枪套中取出枪。

So he can see the other agent taking the gun out of the holster.

我们不太确定他当时究竟看到了什么，因为那只是瞬间的事。

We're not exactly sure what he's seeing at this point because it's a very split second.

但在视频中，他似乎对夺枪过程有清晰的视角。

But in the video, it appears he has a clear vantage point of the disarming as it's happening.

所以，为了明确一下，此时一名特工已经取走枪支并后退远离亚历克斯·普雷蒂，然后我们就听到了第一声枪响？

So at this point, just to be clear, one agent has removed the gun, has backed away from Alex Preti, and that's when we hear the first shot that was fired?

对。

Yes.

显然从亚历克斯·普雷蒂腰间取走的枪，在第一枪开火前就已经远离了那堆东西。

The gun that was apparently removed from Alex Preti's hip is away from the pile before the first shot is fired.

第一枪开火后，普雷蒂似乎跪了起来，原本紧贴头部的双手移向身体两侧。

And after that first shot is fired, Pretty appears to get up onto his knees, and his hands, which were bunched up near his head, moved down towards his sides.

那名特工又开了三枪，普雷蒂开始倒向地面。

The agent fires three more times, and Pretty begins to fall to the ground.

他在倒地时用左手撑地，似乎想稳住自己，但他的双手显然没有武器。

He reaches down with his left hand while falling, apparently to brace himself, and there does not appear to be weapons in either of his hands.

随后，最初对弗雷迪使用胡椒喷雾的那名特工也加入进来，两人又向弗雷迪已被解除武装、此时已静止躺在地上的身体开了六枪。

Then the agent who initially pepper sprayed Freddie joins in, and the two of them fire six more shots at Freddie's disarmed body, which is, at this point, laying motionless on the ground.

在

In

总共，他们在五秒内开了十枪。

total, they appear to fire 10 shots in five seconds.

我们可以在后续的录像中听到，特工们在亚历克斯·普迪中弹后搜查他的身体。

We can hear in later footage that as agents are searching Alex Purdy's body after he's already been shot.

一名特工大喊：枪在哪？

One agent yells, where's the gun?

枪在哪？

Where's the gun?

显然，并非所有特工都知道亚历克斯·普雷蒂已经解除武装。

So clearly not all of the agents know that Alex Pretty had already been disarmed.

你知道，第一枪是在普雷蒂的枪被取走后大约一秒钟内开的。

You know, given the fact that the first shot was fired only about a second after Pretty's gun was removed

嗯。

Mhmm.

尽管开枪的特工可能看到枪已经被拔出。

Even though the agent who shot Alex Preti might have been able to see that the gun had been unholstered.

但整个过程发生得太快了，你无法确定他在开枪时是否确切知道这一点。

It all is happening so fast that you can't know for sure whether he definitely knew that when he was firing.

嗯，当然。

Well, sure.

很难知道开枪的警员在开枪时看到了什么或知道什么，除了当时确实有一把枪存在。

It's it's difficult to know what the agent who fired saw or knew when he fired other than that there was a gun present.

对。

Mhmm.

但我们知道的是，亚历克斯·普雷蒂明显已被制服在地。

But what we do know is that Alex Pretty was very clearly subdued on the ground.

他被按住，双臂放在头旁。

He was being held down and his arms were by his head.

对。

Mhmm.

而且，开枪的警员当时站在普雷蒂身后。

And again, the agent was standing behind Pretty.

他瞄准的是普雷蒂的背部。

He was aiming at his back.

因此，当时他并没有对警员构成明确的威胁。

So he presented no clear threat to the agents at that point.

但我想强调的是，国土安全部的说法是，弗雷迪手持枪支接近了一名特工。

But I wanna stress that the statement that is being made by the Department of Homeland Security is that Freddie approached an agent with a gun.

对。

Right.

这是事实。

It's true.

他确实携带了枪支，但视频显示，在与特工互动的整个过程中，他并没有一直把枪握在手里。

He was armed with a gun, but the videos show he was not holding it in his hand throughout the entire interaction with the agents.

嗯。

Mhmm.

国土安全部还表示，特工开枪是出于对自身安全的担忧。

The Department of Homeland Security also said the agent fired out of concern for the agent's safety.

因此，如果我们观看录像并评估是否存在安全威胁，可以看到普雷蒂已经躺在地上。

So if we're looking at the footage and we're assessing whether or not there's a concern for safety, we can see that Pretty is on the ground.

他已被制服。

He's being subdued.

即使他腰间别着枪，有一刻他也够不到它。

And even if there's a gun on his hip, at one point, he can't reach it.

所以，当面对一个可能已被同事解除武装的人时，直接开枪而不是稍作停顿确认情况，这与国土安全部的说法不符。

So the response to shoot him to pull out a firearm and and shoot him rather than taking a beat to understand whether another agent, one of your colleagues has disarmed

的

the

你即将射击的人，这与国土安全部的说法完全不符。

person you're about to shoot, It just doesn't comport with what the Department of Homeland Security is saying.

你知道，我们一周前在节目中采访过我们的同事查尔斯·霍曼斯。

You know, we talked to our colleague Charles Homans on the show about a week ago.

他当时描述说，那段时间几乎出现了一段平静期，因为已经好几天没有联邦特工射杀雷妮·古德了。

He described at that point what felt almost like a lull in the sense that it had been a few days since a federal agent had shot Renee Goode.

显然，人们走上街头，感到愤怒。

Obviously, people had taken to the streets, were outraged.

但当时也感觉移民与海关执法局的行动稍微低调了一些，那时人们普遍在猜测，事态会升级还是会缓和。

But it felt also like ICE was operating a little bit less visibly, and I think it was kind of an open question at that time whether things would escalate or would deescalate.

我们仅仅过了几天就又遭遇了一起致命枪击事件，这显得尤为突出。

And it feels really notable that here we are just a few days later reacting to another fatal shooting.

是的。

Yes.

这是不到一个月内，联邦特工在明尼阿波利斯制造的第二起枪击事件，我们分析的视频与国土安全部关于事件经过的陈述存在矛盾。

This is the second shooting in less than a month that's been carried out by federal agents in Minneapolis where the footage that we've analyzed has conflicted with statements that have been made by the Department of Homeland Security about what took place.

全国范围内的网络舆论以及明尼阿波利斯当地的紧张情绪本就高涨，这无疑会进一步加剧这些矛盾。

Tensions are already high online around the country and on the ground in Minneapolis, and this is sure to inflame them further.

德文·卢姆，非常感谢你。

Devin Lum, thank you so much.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是丹·巴里，一名长期供职于《纽约时报》的记者。

I'm Dan Barry, and I'm a longtime reporter with The New York Times.

我在这里已经三十年了，见证了太多变化。

I've been here for thirty years, and I've seen a lot of things change.

在网站出现之前，我就在这里了。

I was here before there was a website.

但有一件事始终没有改变，那就是《纽约时报》的使命：追随事实，无论它指向何方。

But one thing hasn't changed at all, and that's the mission of The New York Times, to follow the facts wherever they lead.

如果这意味着要刊登政府、领导人或名人不希望公开的内容，那并不是我们关心的问题。

And if that means publishing something a government or a leader or a celebrity doesn't want aired, that's not our concern.

我从未被要求违背事实去迁就任何人。

I've never been told to go against the facts to accommodate anyone.

如果真有人这么要求我，我恐怕会直接辞职离开。

And if I had, I would have, quite frankly, left the building.

当我报道9·11事件的后续时是这样，如今我报道当今的美利坚合众国时，依然是这样。

This is the way it was when I was covering the aftermath of nine eleven, and this is the way it is now as I cover The United States of today.

如果你相信事实驱动的报道至关重要，可以通过成为《纽约时报》订户来支持它。

If you believe in the importance of fact driven reporting, you can support it by becoming a New York Times subscriber.

如果你已经订阅，这位资深记者向你表示感谢。

And if you already subscribe, this veteran reporter thanks you.

埃内斯托，你好。

Ernesto, hi.

嗨，蕾切尔。

Hi, Rachel.

埃内斯托，我想知道，自从亚历克斯·普雷蒂被枪击后，几个小时里现场的情况怎么样？

I wonder, Ernesto, could you just tell us what it's been like on the ground in the hours since Alex Preti was shot?

我认为这是一个让人们感到震惊的城市。

I think this is a city where people are shell shocked.

自从上个月底开始这场移民打击行动以来，人们一直有种感觉，事态正在以一种难以持续的方式升级。

Ever since this immigration crackdown began late last month, there's been sort of a sense that things are escalating in a way that feels unsustainable.

周六早上，又有一个人被联邦特工杀害。

And Saturday morning, a second individual was killed by federal agents.

在这两起事件中，受害者都是美国公民，他们走上街头，旨在监督并挑战移民官员的工作。

In both cases, these were American citizens who had decided to take to the streets to monitor and to challenge the work of immigration agents.

在这两起事件中，他们都被枪杀。

And in both cases, they were gunned down.

我认为，无论是地方政府还是普通居民，都在竭力寻找一条出路，以摆脱他们认为极其危险的局势。

And I think people both in local government, but just residents have been trying desperately to find an off ramp from a situation they think is really dangerous.

你能谈谈目前我们对亚历克斯·普雷蒂的了解吗？

Can you talk about what we know about Alex Preti as of now?

是的。

Yes.

我们知道他是一名当地退伍军人事务部的护士。

We know that he was a nurse at the VA locally.

据称，他非常关心他的病人，并且是社区中深受爱戴的成员。

We are told that he cared deeply for his patients and that he was a beloved member of his community.

我们知道他随身携带武器，他有合法持枪资格，事发时他确实武装在身。

We know that he carried a weapon and that he was allowed to be a gun owner and that he was armed when this occurred.

我们知道他没有犯罪记录，而且他是一名联邦雇员。

We know he had no criminal record, and, you know, he was a federal employee.

所以我认为目前还没有任何证据表明他是个暴力的人，但我们现在才刚过去大约24小时，因此我相信在未来几小时和几天里，我们还会了解到更多情况。

So I don't think we've seen any evidence to suggest that he was a violent person, but we're only, you know, about twenty four hours into this, so I think there's a lot we will learn in the hours and days ahead.

我们对当时边境巡逻人员在现场的行动了解多少？

What do we know about what border patrol was doing at the scene at that moment?

我们是否知道他们当时试图逮捕的是谁？例如？

Do we know anything about who they were trying to apprehend, for instance?

我们听到的说法是，边境巡逻人员正在寻找一名来自厄瓜多尔的移民，他们将他描述为有严重犯罪记录、具有暴力倾向的人。

So what we heard is that the border patrol agents were trying to find a specific guy, an immigrant from Ecuador, that they portrayed as somebody with a very significant criminal history, somebody who was violent.

而特朗普政府声称，任何妨碍这些执法人员行动的行为都是不可接受的，因为他们只是来维护秩序、保障民众和社区安全的。

And what the Trump administration is saying is any effort of people impeding the work of these agents is unconscionable because they're just here to impose order and to keep people and neighborhoods safe.

然而，在枪击事件发生仅仅几小时后，负责管理监狱系统的明尼苏达州矫正局就出面表示：

However, just hours after the shooting, you had the Minnesota Department of Corrections, which runs the prison system, come out and say, hey.

我们对此事进行了调查。

We looked into this matter.

我们查阅了法院记录。

We looked into court records.

我们找不到任何证据表明此人除了几次轻微的交通违章外还有其他犯罪记录。

We can't find evidence that this individual has anything beyond some misdemeanor traffic citations.

所以，可以说，州政府正在淡化导致这起致命事件的行动的起因。

So, know, essentially, the state is pouring cold water on the genesis of the operation that led to this killing.

如果这起枪击事件是由地方执法部门实施的，你可以想象并预测接下来调查使用武力的情况会如何发展。

If the shooting had been done by local authorities, you could imagine and predict sort of what would happen next just in terms of an investigation into the use of force.

显然，这起枪击事件是由边境巡逻人员实施的。

The shooting obviously happened by a border patrol agent.

所以我想知道，在这种事件发生后，通常会怎么处理？

So I wonder how would it normally work in the aftermath of this kind of a thing?

你通常会期待什么？我们现在又知道些什么？

What would you normally expect, and what do we know about what is happening now?

过去，比如几年前当一名联邦法警在这里使用致命武力时，联邦政府、司法部及其民权办公室会迅速与最擅长处理武力使用案件的州机构合作，共同收集和审查证据，以判断该执法人员在使用致命武力时，是否合理地相信这是应对严重威胁、保障自身或他人安全的唯一手段。

So the way this has been handled in the past, for instance, when there was a US marshal who used deadly force here a few years ago, is the federal government, the Department of Justice, and its Office of Civil Rights partners quickly with the state agency that has the most expertise in use of force cases, and they collect and review evidence jointly trying to make sense of whether the officer, when he or she used deadly force, had a credible fear that that was the only means to remain safe in the face of a dire threat to the agent or to others around them.

迄今为止出现的这些视频虽然为我们提供了大量关于当时情况的线索，但只是整个故事的一部分。

These videos that have emerged to date, you know, while really providing us considerable amount of insight into what happened in that moment are only part of the story.

通常，当进行这种调查时，你会试图获取更多关于此事发生前几分钟的视频资料。

And usually, when this kind of investigation is conducted, you try to get more video of what was happening, you know, minutes before this.

你会试图收集目击者对当时对话内容的陈述。

You try to get witness accounts of what was being said, you know, as part of this exchange.

通常，调查人员需要数周甚至数月的时间，才能拼凑出完整且确凿的图景，从而判断是否有必要提起公诉。

So, typically, it takes weeks, if not months, for investigators to assemble a complete and conclusive picture that allows them to decide whether or not prosecution is warranted.

是的。

Mhmm.

本月早些时候雷内·古德被枪击后，特朗普政府的高级官员立即表示，州政府机构将被排除在调查之外。

What you saw in the immediate aftermath of the initial shooting early this month, the shooting of Renee Goode, is that top officials in the Trump administration said that the state agency was being cut off of the investigation.

这种做法对于这类枪击事件来说极为反常，立即引发了地方官员的担忧，认为可能存在掩盖真相的情况，我们无法获得公正而彻底的调查。

This was highly anomalous for these kind of shootings, and it immediately created a concern among local officials that there was gonna be a cover up, that we weren't gonna get a proper and thorough investigation.

是的。

Mhmm.

因此，包括明尼阿波利斯在内的亨内平县地方检察官，在无法获取通常参与此类调查的人员所掌握的第一手证据、物证和证人证词的情况下，采取了行动。

So what the local prosecutor in Hennepin County, which includes Minneapolis, did was in the absence of sort of the ability of gathering firsthand evidence, forensic evidence, and witness testimony from the kind of people that would normally be involved in this kind of an investigation.

她建立了一个在线平台，邀请社区民众提交视频和其他可能帮助她的办公室判断是否发生犯罪以及是否有足够证据对执法人员提起指控的证据。

She created an online portal and asked people out in the community to submit videos and any other evidence that might help her office establish whether or not a crime occurred and whether or not there's enough evidence to bring charges against the agents.

这听起来极其不寻常。

That sounds extremely unusual.

称这为不寻常，简直是轻描淡写。

To call this unusual would be the understatement of the decade.

再往后推几周，到了这个周六发生第二起致命枪击事件时，当地和州政府官员赶往现场试图保存和检查证据，却被 physically 阻止接近现场。

And fast forward a couple of weeks when we have this second fatal shooting on Saturday, at the outset, local and state officials who ran to the scene to try to preserve and examine evidence were physically blocked from getting there.

截至此刻，他们甚至不知道开枪的联邦特工身份。

And as of this moment, they don't even know the identity of the federal agents who opened fire.

因此，连最基本的信息——知道你要调查的是谁——都会让任何被公众视为可信且令人满意的调查或起诉变得极其困难。

So something as basic as knowing who it is you're investigating is gonna make any prosecution or any investigation that people regard as credible and satisfying really, really hard.

与此同时，联邦官员当然已经出来发表结论，仿佛调查已经完成。

And in the meantime, of course, you already have federal officials coming out and making conclusions as though an investigation has already been conducted.

你有卡什·帕特尔，还有克里斯蒂·诺姆，他们都说这个人是个威胁。

You have Cash Patel, and you have Christy Noem saying this guy was a menace.

他手里有枪。

He had a gun.

他正在威胁执法人员。

He was threatening agents.

因此，在调查尚未完成的情况下，联邦官员就像在雷内·古德事件后一样，迫不及待地发表结论，仿佛我们已经确知一切。

So while an investigation is still pending, you already federal officials much like in the aftermath of Renee Goode coming out and basically stating what happened as if we know for certain.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

通常，在这类对社区造成巨大创伤的事件发生后，人们会呼吁保持冷静和耐心。

And, you know, usually, there's an appeal for calm and patience in the wake of these kind of incidents, which are so traumatic for communities.

但我们在这起事件中看到的恰恰相反。

What we've seen in the case is the opposite.

我们看到联邦官员使用极具煽动性且令人震惊的言辞，来形容那些一直在观察、记录并质疑移民执法人员行为的人。

We've seen federal officials use really incendiary and jarring language to describe the conduct of people who have been observing, documenting, and challenging the work of immigration agents.

他们甚至将其中一些人定性为国内恐怖分子。

They've characterized some of these people as domestic terrorists.

司法部已对明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔斯、明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗莱、几天前刚就任的圣保罗市长、总检察长以及明尼阿波利斯的首席检察官展开调查。

And the Department of Justice has launched an investigation into the governor, Tim Walls, the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Fry, the mayor of Saint Paul, who just got inaugurated a few days ago, the attorney general, and the top prosecutor in Minneapolis.

争议在于，所有这些民主党民选官员的言论被联邦政府视为对其移民执法行动构成威胁，因为他们一直在抵制、批评和挑战这些行动。

And the contention is that all these Democratic elected officials have been speaking in ways that the federal government deems dangerous for their immigration enforcement operation because they've been resisting it and criticizing it and challenging it.

是否有任何证据表明地方执法部门实际上在阻碍或干扰联邦官员的驱逐行动？

Is there any evidence that local law enforcement is in fact obstructing or interfering with federal officials in their deportation efforts?

没有。

No.

需要指出的是，明尼阿波利斯市和圣保罗市已决定不配合民事移民执法，这意味着这两个城市的警察不会向居民询问其移民身份。

It's important to point out that the city of Minneapolis and the city of Saint Paul, they have chosen not to cooperate with civil immigration enforcement, meaning police officers in these cities do not ask residents about their immigration status.

然而，对于关押在监狱和拘留所中的人，州政府表示，他们通常会配合，以便在这些人因服刑完毕或从拘留所获释时，顺利、实际地将其移交移民当局。

However, when it comes to people who are in jails and prisons, the state says that they cooperate routinely in facilitating a seamless and practical handover of individuals who are subject to deportation, who are about to be released either from state prisons because they've completed their sentence or from jails.

因此，地方官员表示，认为明尼苏达州是一个激进的庇护州，以至于合法居留者完全受到地方政府保护的说法，完全是虚假的。

So local officials say the sense that Minnesota is this kind of radical sanctuary state where people who are here legally are essentially shielded by the local government is blatantly false.

你能为我们说明一下州政府官员是如何回应的吗？

Can you walk us through how state officials are responding?

像蒂姆·沃尔兹、市长雅各布·弗莱、参议员艾米·克洛布彻这样的人。

People like Tim Waltz, mayor Jacob Fry, senator Amy Klobuchar.

他们说了什么？自从第一次枪击事件以来，这种言论有什么变化吗？

What are they saying, and and how has any of that rhetoric shifted since the first shooting?

他们正在起诉政府，试图让法官下令终止移民打压行动。

They are suing the administration and trying to see if a judge orders the administration to put an end to the immigration crackdown.

周六的枪击事件促使沃尔兹州长部署了国民警卫队，因为我认为他和他的团队担心，这座城市可能会再次像2020年乔治·弗洛伊德被杀后那样爆发动荡。

And Saturday's shooting led governor Walz to deploy the National Guard because I think he and people in his administration feel that this city could once again blow up the way we saw in the wake of George Floyd's killing in 2020.

我想暂时谈谈更广泛的政界反应。

So I wanna talk about the broader political response for a moment.

明尼苏达州内外的民选官员目前还在考虑哪些其他选择？

Are there other options that elected officials both in Minnesota and beyond are considering right now?

来自明尼苏达州的联邦议员似乎意见一致，认为或许唯一能阻止这一行动、或运用他们对特朗普政府为数不多的权力杠杆，就是威胁削减国土安全部的资金。

Federal lawmakers from Minnesota appear to be in lockstep thinking that maybe the only way to shut this down or to use one of the few levers of power they have over the Trump administration is the threat of withholding funding for the Department of Homeland Security.

但问题是，考虑到共和党目前控制着国会两院，是否能有足够的共和党人脱离立场，支持民主党？

The question though, you know, considering the fact that Republicans are in control of both chambers and Capitol Hill, is whether you could have enough Republicans peel off and agree with Democrats.

虽然我认为我们开始看到一些共和党人表现出不安的迹象，但是否能获得足够多的选票和反对力量来真正产生影响，仍远未明朗。

And while I think we're starting to see glimmers of Republicans signaling discomfort, it's far from clear whether you'd have enough votes and enough opposition to really make a difference.

美国的民调显示，大多数人支持特朗普政府通过关闭边境、强制遣返非法居留者来处理移民问题的既定目标。

Polls in this country show that most people are supportive of the Trump administration's stated goals of dealing with immigration by closing the border, enforcing deportations of people who are here illegally.

但大多数美国人认为，移民与海关执法局（ICE）的手段已经过度了。

But a majority of Americans think that ICE has gone too far in its tactics.

而在最近几周，自雷妮·古德被杀以来，你开始看到并听到那些传统上支持政府的人开始质疑这些政策。

And in recent weeks, since the killing of Renee Goode, you have started to see and hear people who have traditionally been supportive of the administration really question these policies.

乔·罗根甚至将ICE比作盖世太保。

You had Joe Rogan basically compare ICE to the Gestapo.

玛丽亚·巴蒂罗莫在电视上质问卡什·帕特尔，考虑到亚历克斯·普雷蒂当时手持的是相机而非枪支，他究竟可能构成什么威胁。

You had Maria Bartiromo pushing Cash Patel on television about what kind of threat Alex Preti could have possibly posed given the fact that he was holding a camera and not a gun.

因此，虽然当然很难推测接下来会发生什么，但我确实想知道，这第二次杀人事件在你看来是否在某种程度上成了一个转折点。

And so while it's incredibly hard to speculate, of course, about what comes next, I do wonder if the second killing feels like in any way a tipping point to you right now.

我认为这次事件中的视频格外令人震惊。

I think the videos in this case are singularly horrifying.

我还觉得，仅从过去24小时内源源不断涌入我邮箱的邮件来看，我们在移民问题以及对非法移民采取极其严厉措施的合理性上，依然深陷分裂。

I also think just based on the kind of emails that have been streaming into my inbox over the past twenty four hours that we remain a deeply divided country on the question of immigration and on the merits of a really draconian response to the problem of illegal immigration.

有些人认为这些行动不仅合理，甚至是令人欢迎的。

There are people for whom these actions are not justified, but welcome.

有很多人写信给我，说明尼阿波利斯那些被枪杀的人罪有应得。

There are many people who have written to me to say these people in Minneapolis who got gunned down had it coming.

他们不该干扰移民官员的工作，这应该给其他想挑战他们行为的人敲响警钟。

They shouldn't have been interfering with the work of immigration agents, and let this be a lesson to other people who would wanna challenge what they're doing.

没错。

Right.

我觉得这两名遇难者身上有一件特别引人注目的事：在某种程度上，他们是非常令人同情的人物。

I think one of the things that is really interesting about the two individuals whose lives were lost is on some level, they're, like, deeply sympathetic figures.

这位女性是三个孩子的母亲，也是一位诗人。

This woman was a mother of three and a poet.

嗯。

Mhmm.

第二位受害者是一名照顾退伍军人的护士。

And the second victim was a nurse who worked and took care of veterans.

所以我认为，对普通美国人来说，要接受‘这两位被枪杀的人符合国内恐怖分子的定义’这一说法是很困难的。

So it feels hard, I think, for the average American to take this assertion that these two people who were gunned down and brought daylight fit the description of a domestic terrorist.

所以我认为关键问题是，那些在这些问题上立场更温和、更容易被说服的选民会怎样？对他们而言，这些令人痛心的画面和视频可能会促使他们认为事情已经过头了，政府在某种程度上需要被约束。

So I think the key question is what happens to the segment of the electorate that is more moderate on these issues, that is more persuadable, and for whom these really searing images and videos are gonna push them into the camp of thinking this has gone too far and that on some level, the administration needs to be reined in.

埃内斯托，非常感谢你。

Ernesto, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

今天你还需了解以下内容。

Here's what else you need to know today.

周日，一场危险的冬季风暴袭击了美国东部大部分地区，打破了气温纪录，导致超过一百万户家庭和企业停电，并从密西西比州到马萨诸塞州严重扰乱了日常生活。

A dangerous winter storm pummeled much of the Eastern United States on Sunday, shattering temperature records, knocking out power to more than a million homes and businesses, and wreaking havoc on daily life from Mississippi to Massachusetts.

上周末，纽约市发现五人死亡，当局正在调查他们是否因寒冷而丧生。

Five people were found dead in New York City over the weekend, and officials were investigating whether they died because of the cold.

得克萨斯州奥斯汀有一人因暴露在严寒中死亡，而路易斯安那州卫生部表示，有两名男子死于低体温症。

One person died of exposure in Austin, Texas, while the Louisiana Department of Health said two men had died of hypothermia.

佛罗里达州民主党众议员马克斯韦尔·亚历山德罗·弗罗斯特上周末在犹他州帕克城的圣丹斯电影节上，被一名男子击中面部，该男子告诉这位议员他将被驱逐出境。

And representative Maxwell Alejandro Frost, Democrat of Florida, was hit in the face by a man who told the lawmaker that he would be deported at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah over the weekend.

警方表示，他们接到报警称在高西酒馆发生了一起袭击事件，这是一家威士忌蒸馏厂兼酒吧，当时正在举办一场私人聚会。

The police said they responded to reports of an assault at the High West Saloon, a whiskey distillery and bar where a private party was being held.

袭击者说，‘特朗普会把我驱逐出境’，然后就朝我的脸打了一拳，”弗罗斯特先生在社交媒体帖子中表示，他的家人于20世纪60年代初从古巴移居佛罗里达。

The attacker, quote, told me that Trump was going to deport me before he punched me in the face, said mister Frost, whose family moved from Cuba to Florida in the early nineteen sixties in a social media post.

本期节目由黛安娜·温和尼娜·菲尔德曼制作。

Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynn and Nina Feldman.

本节目由利佐·巴伦和丽莎·周剪辑。

It was edited by Lizzo Balen and Lisa Chow.

节目音乐由帕特·麦卡斯基尔、罗文·内米斯托、丹·鲍威尔和黛安·王创作，由克里斯·伍德负责音效制作。

Contains music by Pat McCusker, Rowan Nemisto, Dan Powell, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。

That's it for The Daily.

我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯。

I'm Rachel Abrams.

明天见。

See you tomorrow.