‘临界点’：明尼阿波利斯警察局长谈移民及海关执法局

我是尼克·克里斯托夫。

This is Nick Kristoff.

我是《纽约时报》的专栏作家，我为《纽约时报》一百多年来一直开展年度募捐活动，为慈善组织筹款而感到自豪。

I'm an opinion columnist for The New York Times, and I'm proud that for more than one hundred years, The Times has conducted an annual appeal to raise money for charitable organizations.

《纽约时报》的新闻报道核心是核实真相，而在此情况下，我们核实组织背景，挑选出最优秀的机构，以帮助创造机会、克服困难。

Times journalism is fundamentally about vetting the truth, and in this case, vetting organizations and selecting some of the best to help create opportunity and overcome hardship.

我希望你们能考虑向《纽约时报》社区基金捐款。

I hope you'll consider donating to The New York Times Communities Fund.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 nytimes.com/nytfund。

To learn more, go to nytimes.com/nytfund.

谢谢。

Thank you.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbarro.

这里是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

就在联邦移民官员在车内开枪打死雷妮·古德的几个小时前，明尼阿波利斯警察局长曾警告说，ICE与本市居民之间发生悲剧似乎不可避免。

Just hours before a federal immigration officer killed Renee Good in her car, the Minneapolis police chief warned that a tragedy involving ICE and the people of his city seemed inevitable.

今天，我与这位警察局长布莱恩·奥哈拉交谈，了解他在明尼阿波利斯与ICE打交道的经历，以及为何他认为总统的大规模驱逐运动正在削弱像他这样的警察部门的公信力。

Today, I speak with that police chief, Brian O'Hara, about his experience with ICE in Minneapolis and why, in his mind, the president's campaign of mass deportation is undermining faith in police departments like his.

今天是1月12日，星期一。

It's Monday, January 12.

奥哈拉局长，感谢您在这么忙的时候抽空接受我们的采访。

Chief O'Hara, thank you for making time for us on Sure.

而且还是周日，您刚度过一个非常忙碌的周末。

A Sunday, no less than a very busy weekend for you.

当然。

Sure.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

从局外人的角度来看，过去48小时确实非同寻常。

The past forty eight hours were pretty extraordinary from the perspective of an outsider.

当时有大规模的抗议活动。

There were these enormous protests.

我相信你自己也卷入了其中一场。

I believe you yourself ended up in the middle of one of them.

我一直在试图理解这段视频。

I've tried to make sense of the video.

我的意思是，这对您来说是什么样的经历？

I mean, what has this been like for you?

事情是这样的：抗议活动始于一家酒店外，人们认为联邦执法部门可能住在那里。

So what happened was we had a protest start outside of a hotel where people believed federal law enforcement might be staying.

他们认为移民局特工住在那里。

They they believed ICE agents were staying there.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

在三月的这次抗议活动中，它逐渐演变成了非法集会。

During the course of that protest in March is it sort of transitioned into an unlawful assembly.

城市中通常会发生的一些事情发生了，一名方向感混乱的女性将车开上了人行道，警方被召来处理此事。

And things that typically happen in cities happen, and a woman who was disoriented drove her car onto a sidewalk, and the police were called to respond.

因此，当警车在那里处理常规警务时，他们突然意识到自己已被一群变得暴躁的人群包围。

So while the police car was there dealing with regular police work, suddenly they realized they had become surrounded by this crowd which had become unruly.

于是我们的警员呼叫支援，表示无法驾车离开，而我当时正与其他警员在附近。

So our officers called in, that they were unable to drive out, and I was in the area personally with other police officers.

我们迅速冲进去驱散人群，为警车开辟一条出路。

We just we quickly ran in to back the crowd out to get a path for the police car to come out.

我认为，正是因为我们这样做了，可能助长了本已暴躁的人群，我们很快调集了超过200名额外警员。

And I think because we did that, I think that may have contributed to emboldening an already unruly crowd, and we very quickly called in well over 200 additional police officers.

最终，我们以非法集会为由逮捕了30人，并将他们释放。

And then ultimately, we wound up placing 30 people under arrest for unlawful assembly and releasing them.

这对警察部门的所有成员来说都是一种极大的压力。

It's been very taxing for all members of the police department.

这种情况已经持续酝酿了几周。

And this is a situation that has been building up for several weeks.

由于某些联邦执法行动的方式，这里发生的大量骚乱和混乱，迫使我们的警员不得不介入这些情况，试图恢复秩序，而他们自己却常常成为人们愤怒的目标。

A lot of the disturbances and chaos that's been happening here as a result of the manner in which some federal enforcement activity is happening is requiring our officers to respond and step into situations and try and restore the peace, where oftentimes they themselves then become the target of people's frustration.

嗯，你是在暗示什么。

Well, you're hinting at all.

我们之所以找你谈话，当然是因为ICE在那里，但更具体地说，是因为上周中期一名ICE特工的行为——枪杀了明尼阿波利斯居民雷妮·古德，这一枪击事件导致古德女士死亡。

This the reason we're talking to you, of course, is because of the fact that ICE is there, but because specifically of what an ICE agent did in the middle of of last week, the shooting of a Minneapolis resident, Renee Good, a shooting that killed miss Good.

到目前为止，数百万人已经从各个角度观看了这起枪击事件的视频。

And at this point, millions of people have watched the video of that shooting from every conceivable angle

嗯。

Mhmm.

在社交媒体和电视新闻上。

On social media, on TV news.

但在那起枪击事件之前，其实还有一段我们很多人没关注的前奏。

But there was a lead up to that shooting that a lot of us didn't watch Yes.

而且我也没在电视或YouTube上看到。

As closely and and didn't see on TV or on YouTube.

那是从十二月初开始，大批移民和海关执法官员抵达。

And that was the arrival of a large number of immigration and customs enforcement agents starting in early December.

所以我想从这里开始说起。

And so that's where I wanna begin.

嗯。

Mhmm.

作为警察局长，你能带我回顾一下那段时期吗？

Take me back to that period for you as police chief.

你当时是如何理解总统决定向你们城市派遣这些特工的原因的？

What was your understanding of why the president decided to send these agents to your city?

大约一个月前，在十二月，公众的言论似乎主要是政治性的。

About a month ago in December, it seemed like the public messaging was largely political.

而这源于该州确实存在的一个真实问题，那就是欺诈问题。

And and it was a result of a real problem that does exist in the state, and that is a problem with fraud.

数十人已被联邦调查局和明尼苏达州的美国检察官办公室起诉。

Dozens of people have been prosecuted, by the FBI and the US attorney's office here in Minnesota.

你指的是特别被提及的欺诈行为。

You're referring to the fraud that had been specifically highlighted

是的。

Yes.

发生在明尼阿波利斯索马里社区的欺诈行为。

In the Somali community in Minneapolis.

我想谈谈总统决定向明尼阿波利斯派遣移民官员时的言论。

And I and I do wanna talk about the president's message when he decided to send specifically immigration officers to Minneapolis.

我的意思是，他对自己的想法非常明确。

I mean, he was pretty explicit about his thinking.

在他看来，这座城市中数量庞大且广为人知的索马里人群体。

In his mind, the Somali population in the city, which is sizable and well known

是的。

Yes.

他将其描述为一个制造混乱、实施犯罪的社区。

He described it as a community that was sowing disorder, committing crimes.

换句话说，就是一个应该被驱逐的麻烦制造者群体。

Basically, in so many words, a community of troublemakers who should be deported.

我想知道你是如何看待这一点的，这是否与你作为警长的经历相符。

And I wonder what you made of that and if it felt like that had been your experience as chief.

我是在距下曼哈顿约十英里的地方长大的。

Well, I'm from about 10 miles from Lower Manhattan is where I grew up.

我在新泽西州纽瓦克当了二十多年警察，但在搬到明尼苏达州之前，我从未接触过索马里裔美国人。

I was a police officer for over twenty years in Newark, New Jersey, but I had not known any Somali Americans until I moved to Minnesota.

而我在这里遇到的索马里裔美国人，包括许多本市的警察，都对我非常友好。

And the Somali Americans that I have met here, including many of whom are police officers, in this city, have been incredibly welcoming of me.

从个人角度来看，这简直令人费解，因为我也知道，该社区的绝大多数人都是美国公民。

You know, so from personal perspective, it was just bizarre because I'm also aware that the overwhelming majority of people from that community are American citizens.

那么，从犯罪的角度来看，总统说的有属实的地方吗？

Well, from from a crime perspective, was anything the president was saying true?

嗯，这个州确实存在欺诈问题。

Well, there is a real problem with fraud in the state.

不幸的是，这一点现在被所有的政治言论和极端反应所掩盖了。

And unfortunately, that is sort of lost now in all of this political rhetoric and sort of the extreme reactions that occur.

你是在区分欺诈行为和传统的街头犯罪。

You're you're drawing a distinction between fraud and kind of traditional street crime.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但你承认这个群体中确实存在某种程度的欺诈行为。

But you're acknowledging that there's some level of fraud occurring perhaps in this community.

也许总统所指的是这个，是的。

Perhaps that's what the president is referring to Yes.

在你看来，这与你和你的警员日复一日应对的犯罪行为是不同的。

In your mind that's distinct from perhaps the crime that you you and your officers are dealing with day in and day out.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

这些案件导致了数十起起诉，均由明尼苏达州的美国检察官办公室和联邦调查局主导。

Those cases that were brought about, leading to dozens and dozens of of prosecutions were led by the US attorney's office here in Minnesota as well as the FBI.

明白了。

Got it.

所以，在你看来，总统要求的这次特别部署ICE特工的行动是合理的吗？

So in in mind, was this planned deployment, specifically of ICE agents that the president asked for, was it warranted?

我的意思是，自从有ICE以来，明尼苏达州就一直进行过移民执法。

I mean, there have been immigration enforcement conducted in Minnesota as long as there has been ICE.

我认为这个问题被忽视的地方在于，关键不在于执行哪些法律，而在于执法的方式。如果执法是经过周密计划、事先安排、针对那些违法者的，我认为所有执法部门都能明确支持这一点。

I think the problem is what gets lost in this is it's not necessarily about which laws are being enforced, it's about how that enforcement is happening To the extent that there are well planned, pre planned, targeted enforcement against people who who are violating the law, I think all of law enforcement can very clearly get behind that.

但如果某些行动缺乏周密计划，采用了通常不被视为稳妥的手段，就可能不必要地危及执行执法的执法人员以及社区民众的生命安全。

But to the extent that things are being conducted that may not be well planned, using tactics that generally are not viewed as sound, that may unnecessarily endanger the lives both of law enforcement officers conducting that enforcement as well as the lives of people in the community.

当然，这些是我作为管理者必须面对并承担责任的问题。

Certainly, those are concerns that I have to deal with and I am responsible for as a professional managing my agency.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以对你来说，问题不在于ICE的到来。

So it sounds like for you, it's not the fact of ICE coming that is the issue.

而在于他们到来的方式。对。

It's the way Correct.

是的，是的。

That that

ICE到来的方式。

that ICE came.

那么我们来谈谈这一点。

So so let's talk about that.

总统提出论点，认为移民执法应该在明尼阿波利斯更大规模地进行。

So the president makes his case that immigration enforcement should be happening on a larger scale in Minneapolis.

在十二月初，他付诸实施了。

And in early December, he makes it happen.

这些移民与海关执法局特工的行动是如何开展的？它们如何开始影响你所管理的警察部门？

How did the operations of these ICE agents work, and how did it start to affect the police department that you run?

发生了什么变化？

What changed?

我的意思是，你暗示他们的手段不同。

I mean, you're hinting that their tactics are different.

是的。

Yes.

我们刚刚收到社区居民拨打的911电话数量大幅增加，这些电话都与当前大量街头执法行动有关。

So we've just gotten a pretty dramatic increase in nine one one calls from people in the community related to a lot of the street enforcement that's happening.

我的意思是，从人们被逮捕、车辆被遗弃在道路上，有时甚至堵住整条街，各种情况都有。

And I mean, it's everything from people are being arrested and their cars are left in the roadway, sometimes blocking the street.

有一个案例，车都没停好，就自己沿着路滚走了。

That one case left when it wasn't even placed in park and was rolling down the road.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

所以，移民局官员把人从车里拉出来，逮捕他们，而车子甚至都没熄火？

So so ICE officials are are are taking someone out of their car, arresting them, and their car is not even put in park?

我们确实遇到过这种情况。

We had that happen.

还有一次，车里有只狗，他们却把狗留在车里。

We had another time where there was a dog in the car, and they left the dog in the car.

天啊。

Wow.

我的意思是，就在今天早上，我们接到了多起关于有人被移民局使用胡椒喷雾袭击的电话。

I mean, even this morning, we've gotten calls for individuals who were pepper sprayed by ice.

我们之前从未遇到过这么多各种各样的求助电话，现在却不得不去处理和分类这些情况。

There's just a variety of calls for service that we then have to manage and triage that were not happening before.

这种因人们遭遇移民局执法行为而突然激增的911来电，对整个部门造成了怎样的影响？

And how does that sudden influx of 911 calls because people are experiencing ICE tactics affect the department as a whole?

这给你的执法工作带来了哪些复杂性？

How does it complicate your policing?

这使情况更加复杂，因为我们人手严重不足。

It complicates things because we remain significantly understaffed.

这是明尼阿波利斯警察局。

This is the Minneapolis Police Department.

2020年在这里工作的大多数警察，五年后的今天，大多数都已经离开了。

The majority of the cops that worked here in 2020, five years later, the majority have left.

我们正在努力重建。

And we're trying to rebuild.

尽管我们目前面临的街头严重犯罪比过去正常水平要高得多，但我们的人员配置仍比以往常态低三分之一。

We remain one third below what had been typical of of staffing for the police department here today while we're dealing with a much higher level of serious street crime than what had been normal in the past.

所以，这增加了额外的工作量。

So, is adding additional work.

最难区分的一点是，我们被叫去处理那些非常紧张、情绪激动的事件。

Probably the toughest distinction is we're getting called and pulled into situations that are very tense and very emotionally charged.

很多时候，我们被要求介入并缓和那些联邦执法部门可能已经卷入的局势，但只要我们一出现，就会立刻成为民众不满的靶子。

And oftentimes, we're asked to try and step in and deescalate situations where federal law enforcement may have been involved that very, very quickly, as soon as we show up, we become the target of people's frustration.

所以你们一到现场？

So the minute you show up?

我们一到现场，就变成了问题本身。

The minute we show up, we're the problem.

你知道，人们已经准备好了。

You know, people are ready to go.

情况可能非常、非常快地失控。

It could very, very quickly explode.

以我们目前的人员配置水平，以及调动国民警卫队所需的时间，一切都将为时已晚。

And with the level of staffing that we have and the time that it takes to get the National Guard to come in, it will be too late.

这正是我的担忧。

That's my fear.

我的意思是，你一直在绕着这个话题打转，但我觉得我们应该明确指出：你是在一个非常特定的时刻、带着一个非常明确的使命来到明尼阿波利斯警察局局长这个职位上的。

I mean, you've been talking around this, and I think we should just make this extremely explicit that you come to the job of being police chief in Minneapolis at a very specific moment with a very specific mandate.

你上任时，距离明尼阿波利斯警察杀害乔治·弗洛伊德仅过去两年，当时警局士气极度低落，社区对警察部门的信任也降至极低水平。

You arrive just two years after a Minneapolis police officer murdered George Floyd at a moment of extremely low morale for the department and really high levels of distrust of the police department by the community.

当你接手这份工作时，我回去翻看了过去的采访片段。

And when you took this job, I went back and looked at the old clips.

你曾称明尼阿波利斯是全球警务改革的震中，并在任内推行了全面改革，试图重建信任，修复警察与居民之间的关系。

You called Minneapolis ground zero for a global reckoning on policing, and you, in the job, put in place sweeping reforms to try to rebuild trust, repair relationships between police and residents.

是的。

Yeah.

能不能给我们举几个你推行的改革例子？这些改革现在 presumably 正因联邦移民局的介入而受到某种程度的挑战。

Just give us a couple examples of the reforms you put in place and that presumably are now being somewhat challenged by ICE's presence.

因此，我们非常重视武力使用、非暴力化解以及关键决策实践的应用。

So we have placed a very strong emphasis on use of force, on employing de escalation, on the use of critical decision making practices.

我们举办了数十场社区会议，以在修订政策时听取社区的意见。

We have gone out and had dozens of community meetings to get input from community as we revise our policies.

我认为，这一切归根结底是要以赢得社区信任的方式打击犯罪，而不是疏远民众。

And I think it it all boils down to trying to fight crime in a way that earns community trust as opposed to alienating people.

根据你所说的，就在几周前，所有这些努力突然面临一群外部联邦执法官员的到来，他们在你的城市执行警务工作，却不听命于你，也未必认同你所推行的改革举措，他们的使命完全不同。

And from what you're saying, suddenly, as of a few weeks ago, all of that work is confronted with an outside group of federal law enforcement officials arriving in your city, doing police work, but who don't answer to you and are not as inevitably invested in the reform efforts that you have put in place, they have a totally different mandate.

听起来你是在说，这一切突然间就压倒了、挑战了、复杂化了你作为警长所承担的整个项目。

And it sounds like you're saying all of a sudden that is just immediately overshadowing, challenging, complicating this entire project that you have overtaken as police chief.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

在所有这些挑战之中，我们正努力疗愈这个社区，努力疗愈那些留下来的警员，并在他们已经是全国最受审视的警队的情况下重建信任。

And in the midst of all of those challenges, while we're trying to heal this community, while we're trying to heal the men and women who have remained here and rebuild while they're already the most scrutinized police department in the nation.

我可以告诉你，这里的警察也是普通人。

And and I can tell you, like, the cops here, we're human beings.

我担心我们可能会达到一个临界点。

And as I worry that we might hit a breaking point.

随着几周时间的推移，居民们似乎自发开始监视移民局官员及其活动。

It feels like as the weeks went on here, that residents are taking it upon themselves to monitor ICE agents and their activity.

明尼阿波利斯，这并不是秘密，这是一个相当自由的城市。

Minneapolis, this is not a secret, pretty liberal city.

是的。

And Yes.

在这段时期，一些居民自发组织成小组。

There are residents who organize themselves in this period into groups.

他们跟踪移民局官员的行动。

They're shadowing ICE agents.

他们互相发短信。

They're texting each other.

他们吹口哨。

They're blowing whistles.

这已经形成了一种相当有意义的努力，以对抗他们的执法行动。

And it's amounting to a pretty meaningful effort to counter their enforcement operations.

我不知道你是否对这个词有异议。

I don't know if you quibble with that word.

这会不会成为一个独立的问题？

Does that become its own problem?

你是否曾希望居民们不要这样做？

And did you find yourself wishing that the residents were not doing that?

你是否试图阻止他们？

Did you try to discourage it?

我可以告诉你，美国警察和执法部门的首要职责是保护生命，但也要确保人们的公民权利和宪法权利。

Well, I can tell you the role of the police and law enforcement in The United States is first off to protect life, but it's also to ensure people's human rights and their constitutional rights.

在这个国家，人们享有第一修正案赋予的权利，可以观察、记录和反对政府行为。

And people in this country have a First Amendment right to observe, record, and object to government activity.

这包括明尼阿波利斯警察以及我们城市其他执法部门的行为。

And that includes the activity that Minneapolis police officers do, as well as other law enforcement in our city.

因此，这是一项挑战，但这是美国执法部门多年来一直在应对并努力改进的问题。

And so it is a challenge, but it's a challenge that policing in America has been dealing with and and trying to improve upon, for many years.

这确实为我们的工作增加了一层复杂性。

It does add a level of complication to our work.

但我只想明确一点：我并不要求联邦执法部门做任何不同于我对明尼阿波利斯警察局警员们所期望的事情。

But I I just wanna be clear though, I'm not asking for federal law enforcement to do anything differently than what I expect the men and women of the Minneapolis Police Department to do.

你所描述的显然是一种极易引发冲突的组合。

What you're describing clearly sounds like a pretty combustible combination.

你有移民与海关执法局的特工，他们按照自己的体系和规则运作，而另一方面，正如你所说，居民们行使着第一修正案赋予的权利，包围他们、监控他们、对他们大喊大叫。

You've got ICE agents who are operating with their own systems and set of rules, and then you have these residents, in your words, operating the First Amendment right, to surround them, to monitor them, to scream at them.

这正在累积成显然

And this is adding up to clearly

是的。

Yes.

一种非常微妙的局势。

A very delicate situation.

我想问你一个时刻，因为那感觉出奇地具有预见性——就在过去一周左右，你在新闻发布会上站起来说，我感到担忧。

And there's a moment that I wanna ask you about because it felt oddly prescient where within the last week or so, you stand up at a news conference and you say, basically, I am worried.

我确实有一个请求。

I I do have an ask.

这既是针对联邦执法部门的，他们

That's both for federal law enforcement who

你说

You say

可能并非来自

may not be from

ICE特工，你们有你们的工作要做，但请依法行事。

ICE agents, you have your job to do, but please do it lawfully.

同时，也针对社区成员

And at the same time, to members of the community

居民们，是的，你们可以进行抗议。

Residents, yes, you can have your protest.

请和平地进行。

Please do it peacefully.

正式地。

Officially.

几周以来我一直担心，由于这个问题情绪化，而且坦率地说，由于这类事情的处理方式，对我来说最大的风险是会发生动荡或悲剧，有人可能受到严重伤害甚至丧生。

I've been concerned for weeks that because the issue is so emotional and because, frankly, some of the way this stuff has been carried out, the greatest risk to me is that there would be unrest or that there would be a tragedy, that somebody could get seriously hurt or killed.

但你似乎早就知道一些可怕的事情即将发生。

But you seem to kind of know that something awful was coming.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，这是可以预见的，而且完全是可以预防的。

I mean, this was predictable, and it's also entirely preventable.

我的意思是，我几周前就一直在说这件事。

Mean, I I had been saying it for weeks.

我 literally 在前一天的新闻发布会上就说过。

I literally said it at a press conference the day before.

当你得知真相，发现有移民与海关执法局特工涉入枪击事件时，你第一反应是什么？

And when you found out that it was true, that there was a shooting involving an ICE agent, what was your first thought?

我的意思是，我很难形容那种感觉。

I mean, I'm having a hard time describing it.

我只是想，操。

I I just thought, fuck.

事情真的发生了。

This is it.

你知道，这可能会重演2020年的情况。

You know, this is the potential here for 2020 all over again.

就像乔治·弗洛伊德事件重演一样。

For George Floyd all over again.

导致城市被毁。

For the destruction of the city.

-我们马上回来。

-We'll be right back.

你好。

Hi.

我是《纽约时报》健康版的编辑洛里·莱博维奇。

This is Lori Leibovich, editor of Well at the New York Times.

健康和养生领域充斥着大量错误信息，但在《纽约时报》，无论话题是什么，我们都对所有内容应用相同的新闻标准，无论是肠道微生物组还是如何获得良好的睡眠。

There's a lot of misinformation in the health and wellness space, but at The New York Times, no matter what the topic, we apply the same journalistic standards to everything we write about, whether it's the gut microbiome or how to get a good night's sleep.

即使我们讨论的是像‘空腹喝咖啡对身体有害吗？’这样的问题。

Even if we're talking about something like, is it bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach?

我们的读者在阅读健康版文章时所获得的每一条信息都经过了核实。

Everything that our readers get when they dig into a Well article has been vetted.

我们的记者会咨询专家，联系数十人，进行深入研究。

Our reporters are consulting experts, calling dozens of people, doing the research.

整个过程可能持续数月，以便您能为自己的身心健康做出明智的决定。

It can go on for months so that you can make great decisions about your physical health and your mental health.

我们格外认真地对待报道，因为我们知道《纽约时报》的订阅用户依赖着我们。

We take our reporting extra seriously because we know New York Times subscribers are counting on us.

如果您已经订阅，谢谢您。

If you already subscribed, thank you.

如果您想订阅，请前往 nytimes.com/subscribe。

If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

所以我理解，关于这次枪击事件的调查仍在进行中，我们还不知道这项调查具体会如何展开，或者会得出什么结论。

So I understand that an investigation is still underway of what happened in this shooting, and we don't know exactly what that investigation is gonna look like or what it's gonna conclude.

我们稍后将讨论由调查引发的争议，即该由谁来主导这项调查。

And and we'll talk in just a few moments about the conflict arising from the investigation over whose investigation it should be.

但让我们先集中片刻，谈谈枪击事件本身。

But just to focus for a minute on the shooting itself.

您看过这些视频了吗？

Have you watched the videos?

看了。

Yes.

我看过网上能见到的那些视频。

I've seen the videos that are available online.

你对这件事是如何发生的有什么了解？

What is your understanding of how this unfolded?

我的理解是，有一位女性当时在车里，堵住了街道。

My understanding is that there was a woman who was in her car and was blocking the street.

没问题，老兄。

That's fine, dude.

我并不生某个人的气。

I'm not mad at one.

很可能是因为有移民官员在场，她可能是在以某种方式抗议移民官员的存在。

Likely because immigration agents were present, and she was likely protesting in some way immigration officials being present.

下车。

Get out of the car.

给我滚出车里。

Get out of the fucking car.

最终，发生了一场对峙，联邦执法人员向车内开枪，导致她死亡。

And ultimately, some confrontation occurred, where federal law enforcement shot into the vehicle, killing her.

该死的婊子。

Fucking bitch.

你干了什么？

What the What did you do?

你。

You.

丢人。

Shame.

丢人。

Shame.

丢人。

Shame.

丢人。

Shame.

在观看了视频并与可能的出警警员交谈后，你觉得这是一次合法的移民局官员与居民之间的互动吗？

Having watched the videos and spoken perhaps to responding officers, does this strike you as a lawful interaction between the ICE officer and the resident?

作为一名有二十五年经验的警察，我可以告诉你，每当听到警察与 unarmed 司机发生枪击事件时，都会让人深思，非常令人担忧。

I can tell you as a police officer for twenty five years, anytime you hear a situation where a cop gets into a shooting with an unarmed motorist, it gives you pause, and it's very concerning.

因为尽管政策和培训都尽力杜绝此类情况的发生，但不幸的是，有时执法部门无法避免这类事件的发生。

Because while policies and training try to do everything possible to prohibit those situations and to try and prevent them from occurring in the first place, there are times, unfortunately, where law enforcement cannot avoid those situations from occurring.

作为专业人士，我们的关切是尽量防止我们的人员陷入这种境地，以免无谓地制造不必要的风险。

The concern is, as a professional, to try and prevent our people from getting into that situation in the first place so that we're not unnecessarily creating the risk unjustifiably.

那么，我们来谈谈这一点。

Well, let's talk about that.

你提到了培训。

You mentioned training.

我的感觉是，在处理车内驾驶员的问题上，警务中有一些相当普遍的规则。

My sense is that there are some pretty universal rules around policing when it comes to a motorist in a running car.

第一条是不要把自己置于车辆的行进路径上。

The number one is you don't place yourself in the path of the vehicle.

这是交通拦截的基本常识。

That's like traffic stop one zero one.

你不能这么做。

You don't do that.

所以，在你看来，这表明那个最终开枪打死雷妮·古德的移民局特工，站在了她的车前。

So in your mind, that's a flag that you have this ICE agent, the one who ends up shooting Renee Goode, standing in front of her car.

当然。

Absolutely.

另一个问题是，这里的任务到底是什么？

And then the other one is, what exactly is the mission here?

因为如果这个人并不是预先计划的执法行动的目标，那我们到底在做什么？

Because if this person isn't the target of a preplanned enforcement action, then what are we doing?

我们是在试图缓和局势并解决这个问题吗？

Are we trying to deescalate and try and resolve the situation?

我们是在采取执法行动，执行某项法律，还是目标到底是什么？

Are we trying to take an enforcement action and enforce some law here, or what exactly is is the goal?

我们这里关注的是移民局特工。

We're focusing here on the ICE officers.

我想问问你关于司机的决策过程，嗯。

I do wanna ask you about the driver's decision making Mhmm.

就在这一刻。

In this moment.

即使ICE特工要求她下车，她仍拒绝离开车辆。

Her refusal to get out of the car, even after ICE agents demand that she get out of the car.

她倒车，然后向前开。

Her reversing then driving forward.

她似乎无视了这些特工的口头命令。

She appears to disobey spoken orders from from these officers.

作为一个经常思考这些问题的人，我们直接问一个简单的问题。

As somebody who thinks about this stuff, let's just ask this really plainly.

她错了吗？

Was she in the wrong?

嗯，我只能从我作为警察的视角来谈如何进行交通拦截。

Well, I can only speak to conducting the traffic stop from my perspective as a police officer.

我们的政策是什么？

What is our policy?

我们的培训是什么？

What is our training?

第一，你要接近司机。

Number one, you approach the driver.

你要以军衔、姓名和所属机构自我介绍，并向对方说明为什么拦停他。

You introduce yourself by rank, by name, by what agency you work for, and you tell the person, explain why the person is being stopped.

你这样做是为了首先表明身份，同时确保专业性，并试图缓和局势。

You do these sorts of things to try and ensure number one, to identify yourself but to try and ensure a level of professionalism and to try and deescalate.

如果对方提出一个合理的问题，你要合理地回应。

If the person asks you a question that's reasonable, you respond to it reasonably.

这就是期望的做法。

Like, that is the expectation.

那么，ICE特工有没有做其中任何一项？

And did the ICE agent do any of that?

我的记忆是，

My recollection And

我觉得还有更多情况，看起来似乎有些混乱。

is that there was further, it just seems like there's confusion.

据我回忆，似乎有人在让司机下车，但这个人并不是开枪的警官。

And I I don't know just from what I recall, but it seems like someone else is saying to get out of the car than the officer who shot.

我不清楚这两个人是否在合作，是否理解对方想要达成的目标。

And I just it's not clear to me whether the two of them were working together and understood what each other was trying to accomplish.

你觉得如果这件事完全由特区警察局处理，而不是ICE，结果会不会不同？

Do you feel that this would have ended differently had this been handled entirely by the MPD, not ICE.

毫无疑问。

No question.

考虑到执法的瞬息万变，抛开他是否本不该站在车前这一点，你对这名ICE特工有同理心吗？

Do you have any empathy for the ICE officer given the split second nature of of policing, putting aside whether he should have ever been in front of the car?

有。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

执法领导者和高管有责任照顾他们的人员。

Law enforcement leaders, executives have an obligation to their people.

我们有责任确保我们的人员拥有足够的政策、足够的培训和足够的经验，以应对我们赋予他们的挑战。

We have an obligation to ensure that our people have sufficient policies, sufficient training, sufficient experiences for the challenges that we are placing them into.

我们有责任不能派人员出去，却告诉他们：‘你今天必须完成特定的指标。’

We have an obligation not to send our people out there and to tell them, you know, you have a specific quota today.

你必须抓获一定数量的人。

You have to get a certain number of people.

我的意思是，这些人似乎正被置于这样的境地。

I mean, it seems like that's the situation these folks are being placed into.

在专业执法中，这种情况早已被摒弃了。

And that went out the window a long time ago in professional policing.

考虑到这名特工最近在一次拦截中受了重伤，这无疑让人质疑该机构为保护他做了什么。

And considering this agent was seriously injured in a stop, you know, somewhat recently, it certainly raises questions as to what did the agency do to protect their person.

你指的是《纽约时报》报道的那位警官，据我所知，他在一次拦截中被车辆拖行。

You're you're referring to the fact that that I believe this officer in The Times has written about it was involved in a stop where he was dragged in a car.

是的。

Yes.

他确实遭受了严重的身体伤害。

That he sustained significant bodily injury for sure.

那么，该机构采取了哪些措施来确保这位警官在类似情况下不会处于危险之中？

So what did the agency do to ensure that that officer would not be unsafe in similar situations?

对。

Right.

我的意思是，你实际上是在质疑ICE特工是否接受了足够的训练，以应对这类接触事件。

I mean, you're basically raising questions about whether ICE agents are sufficiently trained to handle these kinds of encounters.

是的。

Yes.

以及是否

And whether or not

你认为他们有吗？

Do you think they are?

我没有这方面的具体信息。

I don't have specific information about that.

我只知道我读到的内容。

I just know what I've read.

我知道媒体报道的情况。

I know what's been reported.

据报道，他们接受的培训甚至不如以前，培训时间也减少了。

It's been reported that they're not even getting the level of training that they used to get, that the the time of training is less.

我觉得这令人担忧。

I think that's concerning.

我认为他们确实被逼入了自己并未充分准备应对的境地。

And I do think they are being forced into situations in which they are not well prepared to deal with.

让我转向调查问题。

Let me turn to the investigation.

我想向你询问这次调查中出现的两个问题。

And I wanna ask you about two issues that have arisen with this investigation.

首先，联邦政府阻止了地方官员参与调查，他们基本的理由是，由于你的老板雅各布·弗莱市长的言论，地方官员无法保持客观。

The first, of course, is the federal government has blocked local officials from participating in the investigation, and they basically argue that because of comments made by your boss, mayor Jacob Fry, that local officials can't be objective.

另一方面，特朗普政府却公开表示，雷妮·古德完全有责，而移民与海关执法局的官员在此事中没有做错任何事。

On the other hand, you've got the Trump administration out there basically saying, you know, Renee Goode is entirely at fault, and the ICE officer did nothing wrong here.

那么，他们能保持客观吗？

So can they be objective?

我的意思是，你是如何理解这种本应是各方共同调查悲剧事件的常规做法，如今却变得如此混乱和充满争议的？

I mean, how are you making sense of what has become an incredibly messy and contentious situation over what I normally think of as everybody doing joint investigations of of a tragic situation?

我认为，这里失去的是人们对调查公正性的任何信任。

Well, I think the loss here is the loss of any trust that the investigation would be legitimate.

我告诉你，我认识很多这里的联邦调查局特工。

And I tell you, I know a lot of the FBI agents here.

我相信联邦调查局仍会进行彻底的调查，因为这就是他们的职责。

I believe the FBI will still do a thorough investigation because that's what they do.

这就是在这里工作的人员每天所做的事情。

That's what the people who staff this agency here, that's what they do every day.

但明尼阿波利斯的居民会相信这是一次严肃的调查吗？

But will Minneapolis residents believe that it's a serious investigation?

但这就是问题所在。

But that's the problem.

事情的发展方式让许多人失去了对调查合法性的信任，这非常不幸。

The way this has played out has taken all sense of legitimacy away from many people, and that's very unfortunate.

我想谈谈在这个调查在当地可能缺乏信任的情况下，城市接下来会发生什么。

I wanna talk about what happens next now in the city as this investigation for which there may not be much faith locally unfolds.

因为在这起枪击事件和抗议活动之后，你的州长已经向明尼阿波利斯派遣了国民警卫队。

Because in the wake of this shooting and these protests, your governor has dispatched the National Guard in Minneapolis.

总统正在派遣或计划派遣更多联邦官员和边境巡逻人员。

The president is dispatching or plans to dispatch far more federal officials, border patrol agents.

这会不会只是加剧了我们刚才讨论的所有问题？

Is that just gonna magnify all the challenges that we have been talking about here?

当时局势刚开始失控时，我就请市长让国民警卫队待命，因为情况实在太不可预测了。

Well, I had asked the mayor to have the National Guard on standby as this was initially unfolding because it was so unpredictable.

我担心，一旦我们真的需要国民警卫队，他们可能需要太长时间才能抵达。

I was afraid that once it came to the point where we might need the National Guard, it it would probably take too long to get them here.

所以我很高兴他们当时已经待命了。

So that's why I'm glad they were on standby.

据我了解，未来将有更多联邦执法力量被增派到本州，专门负责开展更多此类行动。

Going forward, it's my understanding that there is additional federal law enforcement being added to the state specifically to conduct more of these operations.

这让我感到担忧。

That is concerning.

如果事态升级，奥哈拉警长，您是否担心这一切会抹去您过去四年多来为重建和修复社区对明尼阿波利斯警察局信任所付出的努力？

If this escalates, are you worried, chief O'Hara, that all of this is just gonna erase the work you've done over the past four plus years to rebuild and repair the community's trust in the Minneapolis Police Department?

我最担心的是，我们之前所取得的成果——重建警局并降低犯罪率——可能会被彻底抹杀。

The number one priority that I worry about in terms of erasing work that we've done is ultimately erasing the gains that we've made, rebuilding the department, and being able to reduce crime.

你知道吗，2020年6月，就在城市遭到破坏、警局被焚毁之后，仅仅一个月内，枪击事件的数量就达到了过去半年的总和。

You know, in June 2020, immediately after the destruction of the city, the burning of a police station here, in that one month, we had about as many shootings in one month as the city used to have in half a year.

这种犯罪水平一直居高不下。

And that level of crime stayed very high.

而过去几年，犯罪率终于开始下降。

And, you know, now the last couple of years has started to come down.

尽管警员数量不足，犯罪率还是下降了。

And it's come down despite not having enough officers.

我们终于开始重建了。

And we finally have started to rebuild.

我只是担心，如果再发生大规模骚乱，犯罪率会再次急剧上升——这是可以预见的，同时还会导致警员大规模流失。

And I'm just afraid if we have another large scale unrest that we are go both going to have a dramatic increase in crime, yet again, that's predictable, as well as another mass exodus of the department.

我们实在无法承受这样的情况。

And we just we we cannot sustain that.

我的意思是，你有没有一丝感觉，这个时刻可能加强社区与警察之间的关系，检验你们的工作，并证明你们已经取得了进展？

I mean, is there any part of you that feels that this moment could strengthen the relationship between the community and police and test this work and reveal that you all have made progress?

有。

Yeah.

人们会注意到MPD和联邦机构之间的区别。

That people will see a distinction between the MPD and the feds.

我知道这是真的。

I know that is true.

我收到了很多人和活动人士的联系。

I've had many people reach out and activists reach out.

我们的民选官员，以及许多通常对明尼阿波利斯警察没什么好话的人，都对明尼阿波利斯警察在过去几天这些极其紧张的局势中表现出的克制与纪律给予了极大的赞扬。

Our elected officials, many people who typically have nothing good to say about the Minneapolis police have been incredibly complimentary of how well, how restrained, how disciplined the Minneapolis police officers have been in these very, very tense situations over the last several days.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这并不是普遍现象。

But it's not universal.

你知道，这里有些人，尽管发生了这些事，却仍然认为我们的职责是帮移民与海关执法局做事。

You know, there's people here who, despite what's happening, seem to think it's our job to do ICE's job.

这里有些人似乎认为，我们在处理抗议和人群控制时，应该继续重复过去那些失败的错误，而不采用最佳做法来缓和局势并保障每个人的安全。

There's people here to seem to think that that we should continue to make the same failed mistakes of the past when dealing with protests and crowd control and not utilize the best practices to deescalate and to keep everyone safe.