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嘿。
Hey.
我是《The Athletic》的诺亚·切斯特纳特。
It's Noah Chestnut from The Athletic.
如果你喜欢比赛和体育，注意听好了。
If you're into games and sports, pay attention.
我来给你四个体育术语。
I'm gonna give you four sports terms.
你告诉我它们的共同点。
You tell me the common thread.
准备好了吗？
Ready?
局、盘、分、赛。
Game, match, point, set.
这个有点简单。
This one's kind of a gimme.
答案就是网球的计分方式。
The answer is how tennis is scored.
你想来点更有挑战性的吗？
Do you want more of a challenge?
试试看《Connections》体育版。
Check out Connections sports edition.
这是一款为体育迷打造的每日新游戏。
It's a new daily game for sports fans.
现在要玩的话，请访问 theathletic.com/connections。
To play now, go to the athletic.com/connections.
嘿。
Hey.
我是迈克尔。
It's Michael.
我们有点新闻要分享。
A little bit of news from us.
从现在开始，娜塔莉、蕾切尔和我将每周日主持《每日新闻》的新一期节目。
From here on out, Natalie, Rachel, and I are gonna be hosting new episodes of The Daily on Sundays.
这让我们有机会讲述那些平时工作日难以深入报道的各种故事。
It's a chance to tell all kinds of stories that we have a harder time covering during the week.
我们真的非常期待这个新安排，也希望你们同样感到兴奋。
And we're genuinely really excited about this, and we hope that you are too.
你们可以在本周日收听第一期这样的节目，记得收听。
You can listen to the first of these this Sunday, so tune in.
接下来是今天的节目。
And now here's today's show.
来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。
From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.
这里是《每日新闻》。
This is The Daily.
对数百万家庭来说，试管婴儿是一项现代医学奇迹。
For millions of families, IVF is a modern medical miracle.
但对于少数父母来说，这个 largely 未受监管的领域可能会出现严重错误。
But for a small number of parents, the largely unregulated field can go terribly wrong.
今天，Pseudomonas 带来一个非凡的故事，讲述两个家庭如何应对一场难以想象的试管婴儿失误，这场失误将让他们一生紧密相连。
Today, Pseudomonas brings us the remarkable story of how two families navigated an unthinkable IVF mistake that will connect them for the rest of their lives.
今天是1月16日，星期五。
It's Friday, January 16.
苏，欢迎回来。
Sue, welcome back.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
你正迅速成为《每日新闻》的家庭事务记者。
So you're fast becoming the family correspondent here on The Daily.
你曾多次上节目谈论母亲身份、更年期、兄弟姐妹，以及兄弟姐妹如何塑造彼此的命运。
You have come on the show to talk about motherhood, menopause, siblings, how siblings shape one another's destiny.
我想知道，你是如何第一次发现我们今天在《Pseudomonas 家庭记者》中要讲述的这个故事的？
I'm curious how you first discovered the story that we're gonna be talking about in today's edition of Pseudomonas Family Correspondent.
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，不知什么原因，我可能是家里三个孩子里最小的，总是像个旁观者。
I mean, for whatever reason, I am someone maybe because I was the youngest of three and always was kind of the observer.
我一直对家庭的运作方式很感兴趣。
I've always had this interest in how families work.
所以这既源于我自己的童年经历，也因为我自己是双胞胎的妈妈。
So both from my own childhood, but also as the mother of fraternal twins myself.
嗯
Mhmm.
但过去几十年里，美国家庭发生了一个根本性的变化，我之前并没有深入探讨过，那就是有些家庭如今是如何开始的。
But there was one fundamental way that American families have changed over the past few decades that I hadn't really explored, and that's how some families now can start.
你具体指的是什么？
And tell me what you mean.
我说的是我们习以为常的一件事，但在人类历史上却极为革命性的，也就是试管婴儿技术。
Well, I'm talking about something that we kind of take for granted, but is really quite revolutionary in the history of humanity, which is IVF or in vitro fertilization.
嗯。
Mhmm.
似乎每个人都知道有人是通过这种方式受孕的，或者曾经求助过这种技术。
Everybody seems to know somebody who was either conceived that way or has turned to it.
但在我看来，对许多人来说，这确实是二十世纪最伟大、最有意义的科学进步之一。
But it really is for many people, I think, one of the great miraculous and meaningful scientific advancements of the twentieth century.
对。
Right.
它让女性可以推迟生育，等到年纪更大一些再要孩子。
It allows women to put off having kids until later in life.
它让女性不必那么担心卵子老化的问题。
It allows women not to worry so much about the aging of their eggs.
它让因各种原因不孕的人们也能怀孕。
It allows people who have infertility for one reason or another to conceive.
我还要补充一点，我的家人也属于这段历史的一部分。
And I might add that I include my own family in this history.
你的孩子是通过试管婴儿技术出生的。
Your children are IVF babies.
是的。
Yes.
他们很清楚这件事，而且我认为他们不介意我分享这个。
They are well aware, and I don't think they'd mind my sharing that.
但也许因为这是我的亲身经历，而且我知道这个行业在监管上相当令人震惊地松散，所以我一直很好奇幕后究竟发生了什么，以及出错的可能性有多大。
But maybe because it was my experience and because I know the industry to be kind of shockingly underregulated, I have always been curious about what exactly is happening behind the scenes and what kind of possibility is there for error.
一旦发生错误，对人们来说后果究竟会有多严重？
And when that does happen, what can the consequences really turn out to be for people?
嗯。
Mhmm.
于是我开始调查一些关于试管婴儿技术的非同寻常的故事。
So I started looking into stories about IVF that had unusual twists and turns.
我必须说，你并不需要费力去找，就能发现一些这样的故事。
And I have to say, you don't have to look too hard to find some of those stories.
但最让我感动的是一个夫妇经历的难以想象的故事。
But the one that moved me the most is a story about a couple who went through something really unimaginable.
这个故事彻底拓展了我对一个充满爱的家庭的定义，让我看到人们如何以优雅、慷慨和对人性的坚定信念来面对家庭这一概念。
It was a story that really expanded my idea of what a loving family could be, how people can approach the very idea of family with grace and generosity and so much faith in humanity.
我必须说，这极大地坚定了我对人性的信念。
And it really, I have to say, was quite affirming for my faith in humanity.
那么给我们讲讲这对夫妇和他们的经历吧。
So tell us about this couple and this saga.
我叫亚历山大·卡迪纳尔。
My name is Alexander Cardinale.
我是达芙娜·卡迪纳尔。
I'm Dafna Cardinale.
他们的名字是达芙娜和亚历山大·卡迪纳尔。
So their names are Dafna and Alexander Cardinale.
他也可以叫赞德。
He also goes by Xander.
他们四十多岁，住在加利福尼亚。
They are in their forties, and they live in California.
达芙娜是一名治疗师。
And Dafna is a therapist.
那可够远的。
That's a long way.
赞德是一名音乐人和词曲作者，同时也在学习成为治疗师。
And Xander is a musician and songwriter who is also studying to become a therapist.
我觉得我一直都知道自己想当父母。
I think I've always known that I wanted to be a parent.
对他们来说，当父母一直是计划之中的事。
And for them, being parents was always in the plan.
当我们讨论这件事时，我觉得我们总是想象有两个孩子，我总能感受到两个孩子的能量。
We when we were talking about it, I think we always sort of visualized two, and I always sort of felt the energy of two kids.
他们有一个叫奥利维亚的孩子，但当他们快步入四十岁的时候，已经等了几年，现在决定要再生一个孩子。
They had a child named Olivia, but as they were kind of rounding their forties, they had waited a few years, and now they decided they wanted to have a second child.
是的
Mhmm.
我们尝试了好久好久，你知道的，
And we were trying for what seemed like forever, you know,
因为在尝试多次未果后，他们决定去看医生。
because So after trying and failing to conceive, they decided to meet with some doctors.
由于我们的年龄等原因，基本上一上来就建议做试管婴儿。
For whatever reason, because of our ages and whatnot, IVF was suggested pretty much upfront.
对吧？
Right?
试管婴儿对他们有效。
And IVF works for them.
达芙娜怀孕了。
Dafna gets pregnant.
他们欣喜地得知将再迎来一个女儿，并在她出生前就开始了解她。
They are thrilled to learn that they will be having another baby girl, and they start to get to know her even before she's born.
你知道吗，我就是那种会跟宝宝说话的人。
You know, I'm I'm one of those people who, like, I talk to the baby.
我会说：我们现在要去做这件事了。
I'm like, we're gonna go do this now.
我们现在要做那个了。
We're doing that now.
我把你这个拿去给你的
I took this to your
在达芙妮怀孕期间，她会跟肚子里的宝宝说话，而赞德会为她唱歌。
And while Daphne is pregnant, she talked to the baby in her womb, and Xander would sing for her.
赞德，你当时唱了什么？
What were you singing, Xander?
你给她唱了什么歌？
What did you sing to her?
我想我经常唱《为你而生》。
I think I sang Made For You a lot.
《Made For You》就是那首歌，亲爱的，我就是为了你而生的。
Made For You was the one that was, darling, I was made for you.
我会在她肚子里轻轻唱这首歌，然后我会跟她说话，让她熟悉我的声音。
And I would kinda sing that to her in her belly, and then I would I would speak to her so she would know my voice.
到了秋天，达芙妮终于生下了一个漂亮的女婴。
And then finally, in the fall, Dafna gives birth to a beautiful baby girl.
我们立刻被她迷住了，瞬间坠入爱河，感觉整个家庭终于圆满了。
We just were smitten and instantly in love, and the family felt complete.
这个小生命的能量、她的精神，以及她的一切，都让我们的家庭更加完整。
And this little person's energy and her little spirit and her everything about her just kind of, filled out our family.
他们请我保密她名字的原貌。
And they asked me to keep the name they gave her private.
所以，在接下来的故事里，我们会用她的昵称——May 或 May May 来称呼她。
So for the rest of the story, we'll be using her nickname, May or May May.
她完美极了。
She was perfect.
她可真大。
She was huge.
他们告诉我，说她差不多有十磅重。
They were telling me, they're like, she's almost ten pounds.
她可真大。
She was huge.
他们还说，哦，她头发很多。
And they're like, oh, she's got a lot of hair.
我就说，我小时候也是这样。
And I was like, so did I.
我想，这就是我的宝宝。
I'm like, that's my baby.
这就是关键。
Well, that's the thing.
当他们把她带回家后，这个家庭才真正感到完整。
And when they get her home, the family really feels complete.
但奥利维亚深深地爱上了她，所以我们有很多特别的时光，奥利维亚会为她表演节目、给她画画、为她唱歌，真的很温馨。
But Olivia was really falling in love with her so deeply that we had a lot of special time, where Olivia would put on shows for her and draw her pictures and sing her songs, and it was really sweet.
喂她是什么感觉？
What's it like to feed her?
很好。
Good.
我能感觉到她稍微在吸吮。
I can feel her sucking a little bit.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她喝奶瓶时吸得很用力。
She sucks the bottles hard.
是的。
She does.
是的。
Yeah.
奥利维亚立刻与她的妹妹建立了亲密关系。
Olivia is bonding instantly with her sister.
她疯狂地爱上了她。
She's madly in love.
你能说‘奥利维亚’吗？
Can you say Olivia?
我觉得她说了。
I think she did.
她叫了你的名字，是吗？
She said your name, did you?
她们全都沉浸在幸福和爱意中。
They're all just super blissed out and in love.
对于达芙娜来说，长期努力要第二个孩子终于有了结果。
And for Dafna, the long struggle to conceive a second child is finally over.
而我感觉到这个故事即将出现转折。
And and here I sense a twist in this story is coming.
是的。
Yeah.
可惜，这是真的。
Sadly, that is true.
随着婴儿逐渐长大，越来越像她自己，赞德和达芙娜开始注意到一些事情。
As the baby starts growing and looking more like herself, Xander and Dafna start noticing a few things.
达芙娜是天生的红发。
Dafna is a natural redhead.
她皮肤白皙。
She has fair skin.
赞德有蓝灰色的眼睛。
Xander has blue gray eyes.
他也非常白皙。
He's also quite fair.
他们的第一个女儿奥利维亚，完全是金发，金发，金发。
Their first daughter, Olivia, is just blonde, blonde, blonde.
而美美有着浓密、直顺的黑发。
And Mei Mei had this really dark, straight, black hair.
我一直在她身上寻找，她到底像谁呢？
I was really searching in her for, like, who does she look like?
她不像奥利维亚，但确实和我妻子小时候的照片一模一样。
She didn't look like Olivia, but she did look exactly like pictures of my wife.
我们当时就说，哇，真的太神奇了。
And we were like, oh, wow.
真酷啊，你知道的，她一定随你。
It's so cool that, like, it's just you know, she she must take after you.
就是说，我们只是觉得
Like, you know, so we we just kind of
梅在婴儿时期的照片里，长得和达芙娜小时候非常像。
Mae did look a lot like Dafna did in her own super early baby pictures.
有时候他们只是想，是啊，基因真是奇妙。
And sometimes they just thought, yeah, genetics are weird.
她一定长得像我们家族中某个我们不认识或没想到的人。
She must look like somebody in our background whom we don't know or we're just not thinking of.
我一直在心里坚持一个想法，认为她一定很像达芙娜家族中那一支塞法迪血统的外貌特征，而且……
I just held tight to an idea that she must really be taking after a side of Dafna's family, which was more Sephardic looking and and
但在他们家庭的这个早期阶段，这个问题已经开始侵蚀赞德的内心。
But at this early stage of their family, the issue does start eating away at Xander.
他一直在想，这个女儿长得和他们俩一点都不像，而他真的不知道该如何面对这一点。
It's really on his mind that this daughter looks so unlike either of them, and he's really not sure what to do with that.
我一直在内心和自己争论，不断试图说服自己一切都没问题。
I was arguing internally with myself and trying to convince myself that everything was fine constantly.
当这种情绪积累到顶点，快要失控时，我想，那就是我开始对她发表评论的时候了，因为内心深处，我需要安慰，需要共鸣，需要有人能见证并理解这一切，我希望她能看到我所看到的。
And then when that would sort of boil over to a boiling point to where it was bubbling out and bubbling over, I think that's when the comments would come out of me to her because deep down, I wanted reassurance, or I wanted I wanted camaraderie, or I wanted just someone to be witnessing or seeing it with, and I wanted her to see what I was seeing.
所以我就会开个玩笑，比如，也许辅助生殖诊所搞错了什么的，你知道的？
And so I would make a joke like, you know, maybe the IVF clinic made a mistake or you know?
当时就连我自己说出口都觉得荒谬，所以我这样说，只是为了把它抛出来，就像喜剧演员在夜总会试探一个糟糕的笑话一样。
It sounded ludicrous even saying it out loud at the time, and so I would say it to kind of throw it out there like an like a like a comic testing a a bad joke at a nightclub.
我会说出来，看看会有什么反应。
I would throw it out there to see what the reaction would be.
是的。
Yeah.
没引起共鸣。
It didn't land.
效果不太好。
It wasn't landing well.
对。
No.
但随着时间推移，这件事开始让达芙娜感到困扰，而且她也注意到Xander似乎完全不像他自己了。
But as time goes on, this does start to bother Dafna, and it's also bothering her that Xander just does not seem like himself.
他非常心不在焉，而她也能看出女儿和他们两人都长得完全不同。
He's very distracted, and she can see that her daughter looks really different from both of them.
如果非要说的话，她会觉得女儿的血统可能是亚洲的，但他们俩都没有任何亚洲背景。
If anything, she would say that she looked possibly like her ancestry would be Asian, and neither of them has any Asian background.
所以她开始怀疑。
So she starts to wonder.
正是听到那些评论，才让我仔细观察她，寻找相似之处。
Hearing those comments are what made me look at her and look for resemblance.
但我想，也许潜意识里我也察觉到了一些异常，因为当我看着自己，再看她和奥利维亚站在一起时，总觉得哪里不对劲。
But I think maybe subconsciously, was also sort of picking up on it because there was that dissonance when I looked at myself, and whenever she was next to Olivia
嗯。
Mhmm.
总觉得哪里不对，但我又说不上来。
Something didn't really sit right, and I couldn't put my finger on it.
但是所以
But So
在梅梅大约三个月大时，对Xander感到非常担忧的达芙娜最终向他的好友摩根倾诉了所有这些事。
at a certain point, when Mae Mae is about three months old, Dafna, who's pretty worried about Xander, ends up talking to his best friend Morgan about everything that's been going on.
于是摩根说，是的，没错，他真的很担心这件事。
And so Morgan's like, yeah, no, he's really he's really worried about it.
他确实很为此焦虑。
He's, you know, stressing about it.
于是我直接问了摩根。
And so I asked Morgan a direct question.
我说：好吧，你觉得呢？
I said, alright, you know, in your opinion, what do you think?
你觉得，他真的不是她爸爸吗？
You know, do do you think that, you know, he's not her dad?
他说：我觉得，你们至少有一个人不是她的亲生父母。
He said, well, you know, I think there's a good chance that, you know, one of you guys at least isn't her parent.
他很确定至少有一方
He's pretty certain that at least one
不是孩子的亲生父母。
of them is not the parent.
我说：你这话是什么意思？
And I said, what are you talking about?
你意思是百分之多少？
What do you what percent?
他说，我觉得有90%的可能性，你们中至少有一人不是她父母。
He's like, I think I'm like 90% that one of you isn't her parent.
我当时惊呆了。
And I was floored.
我完全震惊了。
I was just completely shocked.
在赞德的所有疑虑以及达芙娜坚决不把梅梅当作其他任何人的孩子之后，最终竟然是一个局外人、一个家庭之外的人，说出了这个几乎难以启齿的事实。
So after all of Xander's doubts and this real reluctance from Dafna to see Mei Mei as anything other than her daughter, it ends up taking an outsider or someone from beyond the family to say this almost unsayable thing out loud.
这可能不是你的孩子。
This is potentially not your baby.
是的。
Yeah.
你想想，从达芙娜的角度来看，尤其是，这个孩子是在她体内孕育的，是她身体的一部分。
You know, when you think about it from Daphne's point of view, especially, this baby grew in her is part of her.
你知道，这孩子来自她的细胞。
You know, it came from her cells.
现在她来到这个世界已经三个月了，他们两人都给她洗过澡。
And now that she's been in the world for three months, both of them have bathed her.
他们都曾挨着她入睡。
They have fallen asleep next to her.
他们对她的气味非常熟悉。
They know her smell intimately.
他们深爱着她。
They love her deeply.
但我觉得，一旦这句话说出口，你就再也无法假装没听到了。
But I think once it's been said out loud, you really can't unhear it at that point.
你知道，你必须认真面对它，把它当回事。
It's you know, you have to really grapple with it and take it seriously.
那对于Xander和Dafna来说，会是什么样子呢？
And what does that look like for Xander and Dafna?
在那通与摩根的电话之后，你们多久就决定好了，好吧，就这么干吧？
So how soon after that call with Morgan did you guys decide, okay, let's do this.
我们需要做个检测。
We need to take a test.
我觉得就是那天晚上。
I think that night.
他们买了一种可以从亚马逊购买的基因检测套件，寄回公司后，公司会告知结果，于是他们决定使用它。
They have one of these genetic tests that you can buy from Amazon, and you send it back to the company, and they tell you the results, and they decide to pull the trigger and use it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
一周过去了，他们没有收到回复，公司说需要重新做一次。
So a week passes, they have no response, and the company says they need to do it again.
然后我接到一个电话，说这些结果有点异常
Then I got a phone call saying something's weird with these
结果不确定，而且
inconclusive and
结果是不确定的。
It was inconclusive.
我正在和电话里的那位女士交谈，她问我：‘你是孩子的母亲吗？’
And I was talking to this woman on the phone, and she said, are you the mother?
我说：‘这正是我们想弄清楚的事情。’
And I said, that's what we're trying to figure out.
我们做了试管婴儿。
We did IVF.
我们想弄清楚，我们俩有没有一个是这个孩子的父母。
We're trying to see, are either one of us this child's parents?
达芙娜正在尽她所能解释这个非常不寻常的情况：他们做了试管婴儿，却仍然不确定孩子是不是他们的。
And Dafna is trying to explain as best she can this very unusual situation where they went through IVF and still don't know if the child is theirs.
她说：‘明白了。’
And she said, got it.
好的。
Okay.
我们会重新做一次检测。
We'll rerun the test.
我们周一给你打电话。
We'll give you a call on Monday.
今天是周五。
This is Friday.
我当时说，对不起。
And I was like, I'm sorry.
那不是‘不’。
That's not no.
求你了，你得明白你亲口对我说的话是什么意思。
Please, you have to understand what you're actually saying out loud to me.
她说，是的。
And she said, yes.
好的。
Okay.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
我一小时后给你打电话。
I will give you a call in an hour.
他们最终以电子邮件的形式得到了结果。
And they finally get the result in the form of an email.
嗯。
Mhmm.
赞德打开邮件并阅读了内容。
Xander opens it up and reads it.
所以我打开了它。
So I open it up.
一开始是一堆杂乱的文字和数字。
It's a jumble of words and numbers at first.
有两个PDF文件。
There's two PDFs.
我专注于其中一个，是给父亲的，另一个是给母亲的。
I lock in on one for the, you know, father, one for the mother.
所以我打开了父亲的那份，逐个查看数字、字母和文字，试图理解其中的意思。
So I open up the father one, and I'm going through the numbers, and I'm going through the letters and the words, and I'm trying to make sense of it.
然后在底部，我看到了。
And then at the bottom, there it is.
有99.9%的把握确定该受试者不是父亲。
99.9% positive that the subject is not the father.
你的反应非常快。
And your reaction was really quick.
你只是说：那我呢？
It was just like, what about me?
那我呢？
What about me?
是的。
Yeah.
因为我完全陷入恐慌状态。
Because I'm in full panic mode.
我抱着孩子来回踱步。
I'm, like, pacing with the baby.
你抱着她，心里想，好吧。
You're holding her and you're like, okay.
那我呢？
Well, what about me?
然后我打开了母亲那份附件。
Then I click on the other attachment for the mother.
然后你长长地叹了一口气，什么也没说。
Then you have big long sigh without any words.
是的。
Yeah.
结果显示，你有99.9%的可能性不是母亲。
And it said 99.9% chance you're not the mother.
他们俩都不是美美的亲生父母。
Neither one of them is the genetic parent of Mei Mei.
她不是孩子的亲生母亲。
She's not the biological mom.
他不是孩子的亲生父亲。
He's not the biological dad.
这个如此美好、让他们的生活变得完整、带来无尽喜悦的宝宝，从某种意义上说，其实是个基因上的陌生人。
And this beautiful baby who has made their lives so whole and feel so complete and has brought them so much joy is really, in a sense, a genetic stranger.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
嘿。
Hey.
我是《纽约时报烹饪》的沃恩·布雷兰。
It's Vaughn Breland from New York Times Cooking.
寒冷的天气来了，我不是气象学家，但我认为天气预报建议你和我们一起烘焙。
Colder weather is here, and I'm no meteorologist, but I think the forecast says you should bake with us.
这些是豪华饼干。
These are deluxe cookies.
你们想试试吗？
Do you guys wanna try this?
天哪。
Oh my god.
我能吃掉五十亿个这种饼干。
I can eat 5,000,000,000 of these.
从搅拌碗到饼干进嘴，大约只需三十分钟。
Mixing bowl to cookie in your mouth in about thirty minutes.
看看这个颜色。
Oh, look at this color.
闻起来真香。
Smells so good.
你最好切一下，因为这会弄得很乱。
You better cut because this is gonna get messy.
听好了。
Listen.
即使你烤箱里现在正烤着毛衣，我向你保证，在《纽约时报烹饪》我们有适合每个人的食谱。
Even if there's sweaters in your oven right now, I promise at New York Times Cooking, we have a recipe for everyone.
所以快来 nytcooking.com 和我们一起烘焙吧。
So come bake with us at nytcooking.com.
苏，当达芙娜和赞德得知五月不是他们的亲生孩子后，他们该如何处理这个信息？
Sue, after Dafna and Xander learn this pretty world shattering information that May is not their genetic baby, what do they do with that information?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他们深受打击。
I mean, they are devastated.
他们心中充满了可怕的预感，仿佛这美好生活的锦绣织物即将破裂。
There's just this horrible sense of potential rupture in this beautiful fabric of their lives.
对。
Right.
我的意思是，我们有一部分人只想逃离这一切。
I mean, there was part of us that just wanted to run away from all of it.
你知道的。
You know?
比如，如果我们直接逃到墨西哥去呢？
Like, what if we just fled to Mexico?
你知道的。
You know?
第一反应是否认，以及迫切希望以任何方式让这个问题消失。
The first reaction is denial and a desperate wish to make the problem go away however they can.
你知道，也许他们可以什么也不做，假装从未发现过这件事。
You know, maybe they could do nothing and pretend they never found out.
如果我们什么也不做，那就只是维持现状，继续过我们的生活。
Well, if we do nothing, then we just keep the status quo, we just move on with our lives.
我说，那我们不妨仔细想想这种情况。
And I said, well, let's walk through that for a second.
但他们最终不得不认真探讨这些不同情境意味着什么，不仅对他们自己，也对奥利维亚，当然还有玛米。
But they eventually did have to start really talking through what those various scenarios would mean, not just for them, but for Olivia and, of course, for Mamey.
对。
Right.
她长大后会怎样？
What happens to her when she grows up?
她长大后会有什么疑问？
What are the questions she's gonna have when she's older?
我们该对她说什么？
What do we say to her?
每次讨论都总会回到：什么才是对她最正确的做法。
And every time, it would always end with what is the right thing for her.
而对她最正确的做法，从来都不是保持沉默，假装什么都没发生过。
And the right thing for her was never just to keep quiet and just pretend like it didn't happen.
因为对梅来说正确的事，正是我们应该为你做的。
Because what was right for May was absolutely this is what we should do for you.
当然，我们应该为你这么做。
Of course, we should do this for you.
当他们逐一设想各种情景时，另一个令人恐惧的问题浮现出来：如果这不是他们的亲生孩子，那么他们的亲生孩子在哪里？
And as they're playing out all the scenarios, this other looming horror comes to them, which is the question of if this is not their genetic baby, where is their genetic baby?
发生了什么？
What happened?
那个胚胎是不是遗失在实验室的某个角落里？
Is that embryo lost in a pile somewhere at the lab?
他们的亲生孩子是不是正由另一对夫妇抚养？
Is their genetic child being raised by another couple?
是的。
Right.
如果这夫妇是他们根本不愿让孩子被其抚养的人怎么办？
What if this couple is someone they would never have wished their child to be raised by?
这个试管婴儿实验室接待来自世界各地的人。
This IVF lab sees people from all over the world.
他们真的能找到那个孩子吗？
Would they ever even be able to find that child?
对。
Right.
难以置信的想法正在一个接一个地叠加。
Inconceivable thought is now being stacked on inconceivable thought.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这些信息简直多到让人一时难以消化。
Almost too much to take in at one time, I think.
他们该如何去寻找她的亲生父母呢？
And how do they go about finding her parents?
他们最终聘请了律师，开始与他们所依赖的生育诊所沟通，并很快取得了进展。
Well, they eventually hire lawyers who start talking to the fertility clinic they relied on, and very quickly, they get somewhere.
所以我们有一些信息，实验室已经找到了她的父母。
So we have some information that we found, the lab has found her parents.
他们认为自己知道她的父母是谁。
They think they know who her parents are.
他们非常确定已经找到了梅梅的亲生父母。
They are pretty sure they have identified who Mei Mei's biological parents are.
哇。
Wow.
这对夫妇也在抚养一个和梅梅同龄的小女孩。
Now that couple also is raising a young girl who is the same age as Mei Mei.
我们不知道那是不是他们的另一个胚胎，是不是你的胚胎，还是别人的胚胎。
We don't know if that's another embryo of theirs, if that is your embryo, if that is someone else's embryo.
我们对那个其他的孩子一无所知。
We don't know anything about that other baby.
但我们非常确定这就是梅的父母。
But we are are are pretty sure that that this is May's parents.
但即便如此，律师们说，看。
But even still, the lawyers say, look.
别抱太大希望。
Don't get your hopes up.
你知道，这个家庭可能只是在抚养另一对夫妇的孩子，有很多家庭都卷入了这种混乱。
You know, it could be that this family is raising a third couple's child, that there were many families involved in this kind of confusion.
或者他们甚至可能在抚养自己的亲生孩子，他们只是在实验室里留下了胚胎，但自己自然怀孕了。
Or they could even be raising their own biological child, and they had just had an embryo in the lab but got pregnant on their own.
绝对不能确定他们抚养的就是达芙娜和赞德的亲生
It's definitely not a given that they are raising Dafna and Zander's biological
孩子。
child.
是的。
Mhmm.
因此，确实存在一种真实的可能性，即赞德和达芙娜找不到他们的孩子或胚胎，最终只会失去他们的孩子。
So there was a very real scenario in which Zander and Dafna would not find their baby or embryo and would only lose their child.
所以我记得当时在想：我刚刚失去我的孩子了吗？
And so I remember saying in that moment, did I just lose my baby?
问他们：我刚刚失去我的孩子了吗？
Asking them, did I just lose my baby?
我失去我的孩子了吗？
Did I lose my baby?
他们没有回答这个问题。
And they didn't answer that question.
那么，在找到梅的父母之后发生了什么？
And so what happens after they find May's parents?
大约在圣诞节前后，经过与律师和另一户家庭的多次沟通，所有相关方同意对两个婴儿进行DNA检测以获得答案。
So right around Christmas, after some back and forth with the attorney and the other family, everyone involved agrees to do DNA tests of both babies and get some answers.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且
And
确认的DNA检测结果已经出来了。
The confirmed DNA results had come in.
匹配成功。
It's a match.
检测结果确认有99.999%的把握表明，对方家庭所拥有的孩子确实是我们的亲生孩子，而我们抚养的孩子则是对方家庭的亲生孩子，这一定是一次直接的错换。
And it came back 99.999% certainty that it was in fact our genetic baby that the other family had and that we had their genetic there had to be some sort of direct switch that it happened.
确实发生了直接的错换。
There had been a direct swap.
这对其他夫妇正在抚养达芙娜和赞德的亲生孩子，而达芙娜和赞德则在抚养这对其他夫妇的亲生孩子。
This other couple was raising the biological child of Dafna and Xander just as Dafna and Xander were raising the biological child of this other couple.
我的意思是，这太非同寻常了。
I mean, this is extraordinary.
所以这并不是经典的婴儿抱错，而是两个胚胎在体外受精过程中被调换了。
So instead of the classic switched at birth, we're talking about two babies that were switched in vitro.
是的。
Yeah.
换句话说，由于某种偶然的事故，很可能是人为失误，一个家庭的胚胎被误认为是另一个家庭的，从而被植入了错误的母亲体内。
I mean, essentially, by some fluke accident, likely human error, an embryo from one family was confused with another and was given to the wrong mother.
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而且，苏，难道没有成千上万的规程来防止这种事情发生吗？
And, Sue, aren't there a million protocols in place to prevent such a thing?
我的意思是，我记得我在医院时，有手环、安保程序。
I mean, I'm remembering when I was in the hospital, the armbands, the security procedures.
我不得不想象，试管婴儿实验室一定会采取极其严格的措施，确保一个家庭的胚胎绝不会被错给另一个家庭。
I have to imagine an IVF lab goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure that the embryo belonging to one family could never end up in another family.
是的。
Yes.
当然存在一些规程，我相信所有这些诊所都追求完美。
There are certainly protocols in place, and I'm sure all of these clinics aim for perfection.
但它们的业务量也非常大。
They are also high volume.
它们是营利性的，并且普遍被认为监管不足。
They are for profit, and they are widely considered to be under regulated.
因此，我们没有关于此类错误在试管婴儿受精过程中发生的频率，或其他类型错误的统计数据。
So we don't have statistics about how often mistakes like this happen or really any other kinds of mistakes that happen in IVF fertilization.
我们能说的是，我们知道这种混淆并非唯一一次发生。
What we can say is that we know this is not the only time this kind of mix up has happened.
这似乎很罕见，但在那些时刻，人为错误确实存在。
It does seem to be rare, but human error in those moments is at play.
有时会发生错误，带来令人心碎的后果。
Mistakes happen sometimes with emotionally gutting results.
而且值得指出的是，梅看起来和她的父母都不太像，尤其是在她刚出生那段时间，她还有一点像达芙娜婴儿时的样子。
And it feels worth saying that Mae looks quite different from either of her parents, especially after that first newborn phase where she kind of resembles Dafna as a baby.
但你很容易想象，如果一个被错置的胚胎看起来和接收它的非亲生父母很像，即使没有遗传关系，这种情况也可能不会被发现。
But you could easily imagine scenarios where a mixed up embryo actually looks quite a bit like the wrong parents it's been inserted into even if they aren't genetically related, and therefore, this might not be caught.
是的。
Yeah.
如果身体特征的差异没有这么明显，达芙娜和赞德可能永远都不会发现这一切。
It's totally possible that Dafna and Xander would never have found out any of this if the physical differences weren't so stark.
这确实让人怀疑，这类事情发生的频率有多高，而父母们只是没有注意到，或者干脆归因于遗传的偶然性。
And it does make you wonder how common it is that this happens, and the parents simply don't notice or just chalk it up to flukes of genetics.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
达芙娜和赞德最终了解到他们的亲生孩子什么情况？
What do Dafna and Zander ultimately learn about their biological baby?
嗯，他们首先收到了一张自己孩子的照片。
Well, they get a photograph first of their baby.
这感觉非常不真实。
It was very surreal.
我记得当时我整个人都垮了。
I remember it it took me physically down.
我不得不坐下来。
I had to sit down.
我当时正走下楼梯。
I was walking downstairs.
律师发来一条短信，信息一出来，他们所有人都一下子受到了冲击。
It comes in a text message from the lawyer, and it really hits them all at once.
上面只说他们给她取名叫佐伊，照片里是个可爱的小宝宝，看起来让我觉得异常熟悉，特别像奥利维亚。
All it says is they call her Zoe, And it was a picture of this adorable little baby that looked so shockingly familiar to me, a lot like Olivia looked.
我的意思是，他们看着这张照片，立刻就知道这是他们的亲生孩子。
I mean, they look at this photograph, and they just know that this is their biological child.
我觉得我当时同时感受到了很多种不同的情绪。
I think I I felt I was feeling so many different feelings at the same time.
对我来说，这很难用语言表达出来。
It's kind of hard to put into words for me.
我觉得我感到内疚和羞愧，因为我根本不认识她。
I think I felt the guilt and the shame of not knowing her.
当我看到那张照片时，我想：我怎么会不认识自己的孩子？
When I saw that picture, I'm like, how do I not know my baby?
更让人唏嘘的是，还有一个更离奇的细节：他们的亲生孩子原来一直住在离他们只有几英里远的地方。
And then on top of it, to make it all so much more poignant, there was this other crazy wrinkle, which is that their own biological baby had been living, it turned out, just a few miles from them.
哇。
Wow.
后来发现，他们一直看的是同一位儿科医生。
And it turned out later, they've been going to the same pediatrician.
两位母亲都曾向儿科医生提起过，她们的孩子长得和自己一点都不像，这太不寻常了。
And both moms had raised with the pediatrician their concerns about how unusual it was that their child looked so little like them.
这一切简直难以想象。
All of this just seems unimaginable.
我很想知道，Xander 和 Daphne 最终会了解到那对仅仅几英里外、不可思议地抚养着他们女儿的夫妇的哪些情况。
I'm curious what Xander and Daphne come to learn about this other couple just a few miles away who have been improbably raising their baby girl.
你知道吗，即使只是从律师那里收到的沟通信息，以及他们偶尔瞥见的短信内容，我认为他们也能看出，那对夫妇是负责任、善良的人，哪怕只是从最初极早期的互动中就能感受到。
Well, you know, even just from the communications they were getting from the lawyer and the text that they were, like, getting glimpses of, I think they could see that they were, you know, responsible, kind people even just from, like, the very, very early interactions.
是的。
Mhmm.
他们了解到，那位父亲是亚裔美国人。
And they learned that the father is Asian American.
母亲是拉丁裔。
The mother is Latina.
而且，你知道，他们某种程度上过着这种平行生活，在相同的时间做出相似的决定，也在相同的时间经历着相似的困惑。
And, you know, they're sort of leading these parallel lives and, you know, making similar decisions at the same time and having similar confusions at the same time too.
再明确说明一下，这些父母接下来该怎么办的问题绝非明确或简单。
And just to spell this out, the question of what happens next for these parents is by no means clear or simple.
并不是说你可以直接说，哦，我们找到了自己的亲生骨肉。
It's not like you can just say, oh, we found our genetic child.
咱们就直接交换婴儿吧。
Let's just swap babies.
因为到现在，这些孩子已经在母亲们的子宫里发育成长了。
Because by now, these children have grown in their mothers' bellies.
就像你说的，她们共享细胞，实际上就是她们的孩子。
Like you said, they share cells, and they are, in effect, their children.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
而且，你知道，在很多方面，这些孩子确实是母亲的生物学子女。
And, you know, you could also say that in many ways, these are the mother's biological children.
所以这一切都没有现成的模板。
So there's no template for any of this.
这些家庭必须自己去摸索出应对方式。
These families have to figure out all of this for themselves.
而他们的方式是极其缓慢地开始。
And the way they do that is by starting really slowly.
如果我们先交换信息，你们双方先慢慢彼此了解，然后……
What if we just exchange information and you guys just kinda get to know each other from here and then
他们做的第一件事是决定在律师办公室见面，不带孩子。
And the first thing they do is decide to meet without the children at the lawyer's office.
在圣诞节到新年的这几天里，当我们去……
In the following days between Christmas and New Year, when we went to
所以达芙娜和赞德正焦急地等待着另一对夫妇出现。
So Dafna and Xander are, you know, waiting quite anxiously for this other couple to show up.
他们走进了那个会议室。
And they walked into that boardroom.
一进门，达芙娜和玛米的亲生母亲就紧紧地拥抱在一起。
And as soon as they do, Dafna and Mamie's biological mother have this deep, deep hug.
你们两人那样拥抱，你问她‘你最近怎么样？’之类的，她说‘糟透了’。
The way that you two embraced each other, and you you said to her, you know, how are you doing or something, and she said terrible.
你们彼此拥抱的方式如此深情。
And you guys just embraced each other in such a way.
我必须说，他们第一反应就是这样，这让我非常感动，因为我觉得很多人可能会把另一位母亲视为敌人。
I mean, I have to say that that was their first impulse is so touching to me because I think so many people might see that other mother as the enemy.
我不明白为什么对很多人来说这并不明显，但对我来说，很明显他们和我们处于完全相同的境地。
I don't know why it doesn't seem so obvious for a lot of people, but for me, it feels obvious that they were in the same exact position that we were in.
你知道，他们也是。
You know, they were.
他们发现自己的女儿不是亲生的。
They found out that their daughter wasn't theirs.
他们还有一个年长的兄弟姐妹。
They also had an older sibling.
你知道，他们和我们处于同样的境地，而犯错的并不是他们，我们也没有理由和他们发生冲突。
You know, they they were in the same position as us, and they were not the ones who made the mistake, And we had no reason to to fight with them.
他们并不会给我们带来任何痛苦。
They weren't going to cause us any pain.
但她们俩都从彼此身上看到了，世界上几乎没有人正在经历和她们相同的痛苦，她们对对方一直在抚养自己的孩子感到由衷的感激。
But they both recognized in each other that almost no one in the world was experiencing the same pain that they each were, and they felt this gratitude that the other person had been raising their child clearly.
我的意思是，这是一次极其强烈的初次见面，对我来说，它以如此充满爱意的方式展开。
I mean, it's just such an unbelievably intense first meeting that to me gets off in such a loving way.
然后，两位父亲彼此对视了一下，我想，正是他们最终明确表示：我们显然必须交换这些婴儿。
And then the dads kind of looked at each other, I think, and it was they were the ones who could say, like, by the end, you know, clearly, we are going to be switching these babies.
如果这件事要发生，我们知道必须在他们再大一点之前完成。
If it was going to happen, we knew it needed to happen before they got any older.
我们必须在陌生人的危险出现之前交换他们，这样他们才能在自己的家庭和环境中感到安心。
We needed to switch them before the stranger danger kicked in so that they would feel comfortable in their homes and in their families.
但决定要换掉这两个婴儿是一回事。
But it's one thing to decide, okay, we're gonna switch these babies.
而真正要考虑的是，我们该如何做，才能做到最好。
It's another to think, but how do we do it in a way that is Yeah.
对婴儿最有利，对父母和兄弟姐妹也最能承受。
Best for the babies and also most bearable for the parents and also the siblings.
于是他们一起制定了一项计划，即以一种能让婴儿适应，也让所有情感相关方都能适应的方式进行。
So they together came up with a plan, which is to do it in a way that allows the babies to adjust and frankly allows all of the emotional stakeholders to adjust.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那这个计划具体是怎样的呢？
And what did that plan actually look like?
他们必须安排一次首次会面，而他们决定的方式是让两对父母和两个婴儿第一次在赞德和达芙妮的家中见面。
So they had to schedule a first meeting, and the way they decided to do it was to have both sets of parents and both babies meet for the first time at Xander and Daphne's house.
赞德决定用视频记录下这一时刻。
And Xander decided to document the moment on video.
我听到她了。
I heard her.
这个
This
没问题。
is fine.
我听到她的声音了。
I heard her voice.
我能听到佐伊，那个我们从未见过的婴儿，那个孩子。
I could hear Zoe, the this baby, this child we had never met before.
我在见到她之前就听到了她，因为我听到他们走过来，她在哭。
I heard her before I saw her because I heard them walking up, and she was crying.
我立刻就认出了她的哭声。
And I instantly, like, just recognized her cry.
她的哭声听起来和奥利维亚那个年龄时一模一样。
It sounded exactly like Olivia when she was that age.
听起来像我的宝宝。
Sounds like my baby.
听起来像奥利维亚。
Sounds like Olivia.
我就这样和她对上了眼神。
Like, I just locked eyes with her.
我特别开心和激动。
I was so happy and excited.
但是
But
但与此同时，一股悲伤涌上心头，意识到她已经长得这么大了。
at the same time, this wave of sadness washed over me of just how big she was.
她可不是，你知道的，才三十天大。
She wasn't, you know, 30 old.
她已经三个半月了，快四个月大了。
She was three and a half, almost four months old.
所以，这是一种非常复杂的情感，既如此兴奋、快乐，又深爱着这个小生命，同时还要处理所有的悲伤情绪。
And so it was such a complex feeling of being so excited and so happy and so in love with this little person and at the same time processing all of those sad feelings.
是的。
Yeah.
我不记得了。
I don't remember.
我记得自己非常紧张、焦虑。
I remember being extremely nervous, anxious.
我当时非常专注，我想，全部心思都在梅身上，所以关于我和佐伊之间发生的事，我可能记得不多。
I was really focused, I think, so much on May that maybe I, I don't remember as much about what was happening between me and Zoe.
我全程都在关注梅。
I remember tracking Mae the whole time.
我只是希望她们的第一次见面能顺利进行。
I just wanted that first meeting to go really well for them.
我希望她们能建立起那种特别的联系，我希望对她来说，第一件事是特别的，即使她不会记得，但她们会，她们会回应她、照顾她。
I wanted them to have that special connection, And I wanted that first thing to be special for her, even though she wouldn't remember it, but like they would, and they would respond to that and take care of her.
但我只是希望这一切能为她顺利进行。
But I just needed it to go well for her.
在那一刻，第一次见面时，我正在失去一个我深爱的孩子，这种情感几乎掩盖了一切。
In that moment, that first meeting, I was losing a child that I love so dearly that it sort of eclipses everything else.
对达芙娜来说，她的首要任务是确保她一直抚养、并与之建立了深厚情感联系的婴儿，能与她的亲生父母拥有良好的互动体验。
For Dafna, her priority was making sure that the baby she'd been raising and to whom she was incredibly bonded and connected was having a a good experience with her actual biological parents.
在那一刻，她很难真正与佐伊建立联系。
It was a little bit hard for her to really connect with Zoe in that moment.
于是，这里有一种拉扯，一种张力：在这个时刻，我究竟应该去照顾哪一个孩子？
So there's this tug, this tension of which of these babies am I supposed to be mothering in this moment?
因为从某种意义上说，她既是这两个孩子的母亲。
Because in a sense, she is mother to both.
是的。
Yeah.
在这个瞬间，谁的情感需求最迫切、最牵动我的心？
Whose emotional needs are most pressing, are most emotional to me in this very moment?
我认为两位母亲也在实时摸索，在场的另一位母亲面前自己该扮演什么角色。
And I think both mothers were also trying to figure out in real time what role to play vis a vis the other mother in the room.
她们正在处理自己和婴儿的多重需求。
So they're just processing so many layers of their own needs and the baby's needs.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她们进行了第一次会面，虽然复杂，但这是一个开端。
So they had this first meeting, which was complicated, but it was a first step.
但这仅仅是个开始。
But it was only a first step.
计划是各自回去后，继续慢慢进一步了解彼此。
The plan was to go back to each other and continue to sort of get to know each other a little bit further and
她们决定逐步安排见面，与婴儿共处，让婴儿适应，也让兄弟姐妹们适应新来的兄弟姐妹，通过共同相处，直到真正准备好做出永久性的过渡。
They decide that they're going to phase in meeting the babies, spending time with them, having the babies acclimate, having the siblings acclimate to their new siblings, and just spending time together until they're really ready to make a permanent switch.
这是一个很好的计划。
It was a great plan.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，理论上，这实际上是我们应该做事的最佳方式，但现实是
I mean, in theory, it was actually the best way we should have done things, but the reality
独自和宝宝们在一起时，感觉怎么样？
And and how did it feel to have this alone time with the babies?
这对父母来说真的很难。
It was really hard for the parents.
是的。
Yeah.
说实话，我当时真的麻木了，情绪非常激动，但我必须在白天压抑自己的情绪才能撑过去。
You know, honestly, I just I I think I was I was really numb and super emotional, but I I had to lock up my emotions during the day to get through the day.
所以对我来说，我几乎进入了机器人模式。
So for me, I went into, like, almost like robotic.
我会去学习她喜欢的一切。
Like, I'm gonna learn all the things that she likes.
我要让她感觉特别舒适。
I'm gonna make it super comfortable.
达芙妮谈到她是如何努力度过与佐伊相处的每一天，适应照顾她并建立关系，同时又深深思念梅。
Daphne talks about how she's really just trying to get through the day with Zoe and getting accustomed to taking care of her and building that relationship while she was simultaneously really, really missing May.
嗯。
Mhmm.
于是他们来回反复了一段时间，直到这件事在情感上变得实在难以承受。
And so they went back and forth for a while until it really just became too challenging emotionally.
这对每个人来说都太难了。
Like, this is too much for everybody.
这已经不再是你的理想了。
It wasn't about your ideal anymore.
而且它还变成了：我们到底在做什么？
And it was it it also became like, are we doing?
我们只是在爱上别人的孩子。
We're just falling in love with someone else's baby.
就像我们现在越来越深地爱上了彼此的孩子。
Like, we're falling in love with each other's babies right now more and more and more.
基本上，大家都心照不宣地意识到必须停止了，尽管这个转变非常痛苦，他们还是得做出这个决定。
Basically, it just became understood that it had to stop, that they just needed to make this switch as painful as it was.
所以，在他们初次见面大约三周后，他们完成了最终的交换。
And so just about three weeks after they first met, they did the final switch.
嗯。
Mhmm.
起初，他们决定暂时不见面，让每个人都有时间适应这种新的现实，并将其视为自己的生活。
And at first, they decided they're not gonna see each other for a little while, so everybody could sink into this new reality and accept it as their own.
我觉得佐伊适应起来更容易一些。
I think Zoe had an easier time adjusting.
这真的让人很难过。
And it's really sad.
而佐伊，你知道的，过得很好。
And Zoe, you know, was thriving.
她适应得还算不错。
She was adjusting fairly well.
但Xander和Dafna花了非常非常长的时间才适应。
But it took a very, very long time for Xander and Dafna to adjust.
对我来说，崩溃了，我不是想太夸张，但简直就是在大哭，是的。
For me, falling apart, not to be super dramatic about it, but pretty much like wailing Yeah.
在淋浴时。
In the shower.
你知道，我唯一能获得完全私密空间的地方就是淋浴间。
You know, the only super private place I could get was like the shower.
所以我每晚洗澡时，都会彻底崩溃。
And so I would take a shower at night and just completely fall apart.
不是的。
No.
听起来就像一只受伤的动物。
It sounded like a like a just a a wounded animal.
就是啊。
Just yeah.
只是让眼泪和任何需要释放的情绪流出来。
Just letting the the tears and the whatever needed to come out.
事实上，我认为他们会说，那种痛苦至今依然存在。
In fact, I think they would say that that pain is still very much still with them.
不得不跟梅告别。
Of having to say goodbye to Mae.
不得不告别，感到想念她，感到内疚，明明知道她被照顾得很好，却无法亲自抚养她。
Having to say goodbye, of feeling that they miss her, of feeling guilty that they are not raising her even though they know she's in wonderful hands.
你知道，即使在最好的情况下，抚养孩子也真的非常艰难。
It's just you know, it's really, really hard to raise kids even under the best circumstances.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但在这个情况下，所有通常的内疚、遗憾和失落感——这些本就是为人父母的一部分，因为孩子总在不断变化——我认为这一切对所有相关的人来说都被极大地放大了。
But in this case, all the usual guilt, all the usual regret, all the usual sense of loss that is so much part of parenting because your kids are changing all the time, I think all of that was just so amplified for everyone involved.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但还有另一个时刻，我知道了自己的情绪，以及我的情绪对孩子们产生了多大影响。
But there was another moment where, you know, I was aware of my own stuff and how much my own emotions were impacting the kids.
我努力去意识到这一点。
I was trying to be aware of it.
我想，我努力意识到你
Think I And trying to be aware that you
你意识到自己有悲伤，它蒙蔽了某些东西。
were aware that you had grief that was clouding something.
对。
Right.
所以
And so
然后，当达芙娜意识到，无论她自己的情绪如何动荡，她都需要找到一种方式将它放下，真正以母亲的身份陪伴佐伊，做她的母亲。
I And then comes this moment when Dafna realizes that whatever her own emotional turmoil is, she needs to find a way to put it away and really show up for Zoe as her mother and be her mother.
真正让她明白这一点的，其实是佐伊。
And it's really Zoe who kind of makes that clear to her.
我出去倒垃圾的时候，佐伊在家里。
I was taking the trash out and Zoe was in the house.
我回来时，佐伊哭得几乎崩溃，因为我刚才离开她一小会儿去倒垃圾。
I came back to to Zoe just crying beside herself because I had left her for a moment to take out the trash.
在那一刻，面对佐伊，我意识到，不管怎样，我都是她的妈妈。
In that moment with Zoe, I was like, I'm, for better or worse, I'm her mom.
在这世上，我将是她唯一真正的妈妈。
I'm the only mom she's really gonna have now in this life.
对佐伊来说，我就是那个她值得拥有全心全意陪伴的妈妈。
I'm the one for Zoe, so she deserves to have me be fully present.
她需要我放下自己的那些乱七八糟，好好陪在她身边，完完全全地爱她。
She needs me to get over my BS so that I can just be here for her and love her completely.
所以，不管我之前设下多少心理防线，只因为我害怕再次因为失去所爱之人而受伤，我都得说：去他的。
So whatever defenses I have in place, because I don't wanna be hurt again by losing it, somebody that I love, I have to say, fuck it.
如果我再次以同样的方式受伤，那就伤吧，但她拥有完整的我。
If I get hurt in the same way again, I get hurt in the same way again, but she has all of me.
我很好奇，对佐伊保持专注、全心投入，是否必然意味着达芙娜和赞德必须切断与梅的联系。
I'm curious if being present for Zoe, being really dialed in to Zoe inevitably means that Dafna and Xander need to cut off their contact with May.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以理解这种自然的冲动——因为情况实在太混乱了，大家各自退到一边反而更简单。
You could see how that would be natural impulse that it was just too confusing, and it would just be easier if everybody went to their respective corners.
但事情并没有这样发展。
But that's not what happened.
我们心想，好吧。
We're like, okay.
我们谁都没离开。
We haven't gone anywhere.
你们也谁都没离开。
You guys haven't gone anywhere.
我真的再也受不了了。
I just I can't take it anymore.
我需要去见她一面。
I need to go and just see her.
你知道吗，2020年疫情爆发时，各地都实行了封锁。
You know, when the pandemic hit in 2020, there are lockdowns everywhere.
于是，两个家庭自然而然地组成了一个封闭的小圈子。
And sort of organically, the two families ended up creating one of those pods together.
我们互相给对方家里送东西。
We were dropping things off at each other's houses.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得复活节的时候。
Like, I remember for, like, Easter
然后开始越来越频繁地待在一起。
And started spending more and more time together.
那是他们的生日。
It was their birthdays.
生日是第一个重要的大节日。
Birthdays was the first major big holiday.
对吧？
Right?
最终，我们一起度过了生日和节假日。
Eventually spending birthdays and holidays together.
真正巩固这一关系的时刻是感恩节，那时我意识到我们一整年都在一起。
Like, a really solidifying moment was Thanksgiving where I realized we've been spending the whole year together.
因为，你知道，感觉很自然。
Because, you know, because it felt normal.
那一刻我就想，哦，我们现在就是一家人了。
That was like, oh, this is just family now.
这花了
It took
因此，这两户家庭没有再思念自己的孩子、想念他们，而是几乎决定融为一体，成为一个大家庭。
So instead of longing for their children and missing them, these two families decided almost to become, like, one big family.
生日快乐
Happy birthday
给你。
to you.
乔治，乔治，又是你。
George George, you again.
佐伊和梅变得形影不离。
And Zoe and May become inseparable.
她们彼此谈论对方时，就像最好的姐妹朋友、最好的朋友姐妹。
They talk about each other like sister best friends, best friend sisters.
姐妹朋友。
Sister friends.
这就是我所能想到的最贴切的描述了，因为有时候她们感觉像姐妹，有时候又像朋友。
And that's the best way I know how to describe it is because sometimes they feel like sisters and sometimes they feel like friends.
让我数一下，二、三。
Let me two, three.
我们是爸爸赞德和妈妈D。
We're daddy Xander and mommy d.
是的。
Yeah.
那就是我们
That's that's who we
她认识我们的方式。
how she knows us.
这对地球上其他任何人来说都没道理，但对她来说却很自然。
And and it doesn't make sense to anybody else on the planet but her.
很难想象还有什么比你所描述的结局更好的了。
It's kinda hard to fathom a better outcome than the one you're describing here.
你可以想象出许多其他可能的情景，比如这两个家庭最终彻底对立、不再来往。
You can imagine so many alternative scenarios where these families ended up profoundly at odds not speaking.
这本可能充满尴尬与敌意。
This could be filled with awkwardness and acrimony.
我很好奇，苏，当你讲完这段非凡的经历后，它教会了你什么？在你似乎永无止境地试图理解家庭的旅程中。
I'm curious, Sue, when you were done reporting out this extraordinary saga, what did it teach you in what seems like this never ending quest you have to understand families?
当然，这一切本身就是一个真实的警示故事。
Well, of course, there is this real cautionary tale aspect to all of this.
但我认为它让我真正意识到，未来可能会不断出现我们未曾预料到的新式家庭形态。
But I think what it made me really recognize is that there will probably always continue to be new permutations of family that we haven't anticipated.
我的意思是，随着科技的进步，我们对家庭形成方式的看法将会持续改变，比如基因编辑、基因检测、胚胎筛选等，未来这些技术可能会越来越普及。
I mean, there are going to continue to be technological advances that change the way we think about the formation of family, things with gene editing, things with genetic testing, things with embryo selection potentially, you know, increasing down the road.
不管怎样，人们组建家庭的方式以及各种家庭形态，都将继续增长和变化。
Whatever it is, I mean, the way that people form families and what kinds of permutations, that's all gonna keep growing and changing.
而Xander、Daphne、Zoe、Mei Mei，以及这个故事中其他美好的家庭，他们真的给了我极大的安慰——无论技术如何发展，我们都有能力以人性、爱、理智与优雅来应对，我们对家庭的定义或许只会随着时间不断扩展。
And Xander and Daphne and Zoe and Mei Mei and the other wonderful family in this story, they really give me great comfort that whatever comes along technologically, we do have the potential to manage it with humanity, love, good sense, grace, and that our idea family might only continue to expand over time.
所以，如果我可以大胆地说一句，对我来说，这个故事讲述的是我们选择去爱的决定，以及Xander和Daphne如何持续地选择去爱。
So if I may be so bold, I think that for me, this has been a story about the choices we make to love and how Xander and Dafna keep choosing to love.
他们选择去爱一个并非亲生的婴儿。
They choose to love a baby even when she's not genetically theirs.
然后他们选择去爱那个被无意中带走的婴儿。
And then they choose to love the baby that was unknowingly taken from them.
而在这一切之上，他们还选择爱上另一个家庭——这个家庭让他们陷入了一个完全难以想象的境地。
And then they choose, on top of all of that, to fall in love with this other family that they've fallen into this completely unfathomable situation with.
这真是太多次选择去爱了。
That's a lot of choosing to love.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为他们其实是在做出一个选择，你知道的，是关闭内心，还是让内心变得更宽广。
And I think that they were making a choice, you know, either to close their heart or to make it bigger.
他们做出了这样的选择，对每个人都有好处。
And it's to everyone's benefit that they were able to make the choices that they did.
我们走着瞧吧。
We'll see.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
谢谢您邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
这总是令人愉快的，尤其是讲述这个故事的时候。
It's always a pleasure, and especially with this story.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
以下是今天您需要了解的其他内容。
Here's what else you need to know today.
周四，由于特朗普总统威胁要动用《叛乱法案》来平息因ICE特工第二次开枪而加剧的抗议活动，明尼阿波利斯的紧张局势升级。
Tensions in Minneapolis flared on Thursday after president Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act to tamp down protests that have intensified over a second shooting by ICE agents.
这起枪击事件发生在周三晚上，当时联邦特工试图逮捕一名非法居留的委内瑞拉国民。
The shooting occurred on Wednesday night when federal agents tried to arrest a Venezuelan national in the country illegally.
ICE官员表示，该男子拒捕，并与另外两人一起用铁锹和扫帚袭击了一名ICE特工，导致该特工为自卫开枪。
ICE officials said that the man resisted arrest and, joined by two others, attacked an ICE agent with a shovel and a broom, prompting the agent to fire his gun in self defense.
嘿。
Hey.
去撞墙吧。
Go hit the wall.
这起枪击事件引发了一轮新的抗议，并激化了该州民主党领导人的愤怒，包括州长蒂姆·王。
The shooting unleashed a new round of protests and deepened outrage from the state's Democratic leaders, including its governor, Tim Wongs.
让我们说得非常清楚。
Let's be very, very clear.
这早就不再是一个移民执法问题了。
This long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement.
相反，
Instead,
这是一场
it's
由我们自己的联邦政府对明尼苏达州人民实施的有组织的暴行。
a campaign of organized brutality against the people of Minnesota by our own federal government.
这反过来促使特朗普威胁要动用《叛乱法案》，允许他派遣军队前往明尼苏达州，称当地官员未能保护移民与海关执法局的特工免受抗议者的侵害。
That, in turn, prompted Trump's threat to invoke the Insurrection which would allow him to deploy members of the military to Minnesota, where, he claims, local officials have failed to protect ICE agents from the protesters.
本期节目由黛安娜·温、卡洛斯·普里eto、卢克·范德普洛格和凯特琳·奥基夫制作。
Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynn, Carlos Prieto, Luke Vanderploeg, and Caitlin O'Keefe.
本节目由迈克尔·贝努瓦剪辑，音乐由阿莉西亚巴·伊托姆、马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦卡斯克和丹·鲍威尔创作，由艾莉莎·莫克利负责音效制作。
It was edited by Michael Benoit, contains music by Aliciaba Itoom, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。
That's it for The Daily.
我是迈克尔·巴罗。
I'm Michael Barro.
周日再见，届时我会为您带来我们节目的全新周日特辑。
See you on Sunday when I'll bring you the new Sunday edition of our show.
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