加州反击德州的权力争夺

这里是《纽约时报》的瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，为您带来《每日播报》。德州即将通过不公正划分选区新增五个众议院席位。而加州已准备反击。州长加文·纽森表示加州也必须重划国会选区地图，新增五个选区，以牙还牙。今天，我与同事劳蕾尔·罗森霍尔探讨了加州选民是否会真正支持这一计划，即便支持能否奏效，以及无论哪种结果都将面临什么。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. Texas is about to gerrymander five new house seats. In California, they're ready to retaliate. Governor Gavin Newsom says that California must also redraw its congressional maps to create five new districts, effectively fighting fire with fire. Today, I talked to my colleague, Laurel Rosenhull, about whether California voters will actually go for this plan, whether it'll even work if they do, and what is at stake either way.

今天是8月22日星期五。劳蕾尔·罗森霍尔，非常高兴你能来《每日播报》。

It's Friday, August 22. Laurel Rosenhall, so nice to have you on The Daily.

谢谢瑞秋，我很荣幸。

Thanks, Rachel. I'm thrilled to be here.

今天我们邀请你是因为本周加州立法者正紧急推进一系列法案，这些法案将使加州能够重划选区以利于民主党。本质上是对德州行为的直接反击。在观察加州事态发展时，我们感觉这其实有些反常。劳蕾尔，你报道加州政坛已超过二十年，不知你是否也觉得异常？

So we're talking to you today because this week, California lawmakers have been rushing through these bills that would make it possible for California to redraw its maps in favor of Democrats. Basically, directly counter what we just saw in Texas. And as we've been watching this unfold in California, it feels like what we are seeing is actually kind of unusual. And you, Laurel, you have been covering California and its politics for over two decades. So I'm wondering if it feels unusual to you.

确实如此。这在加州是个非常戏剧性的发展。当红州采取加州民主党人反对的行动时——比如在堕胎或跨性别权利等政策上——加州立法者做出回应并不稀奇。但目睹这种赤裸裸的硬核政治博弈，两州间如此残酷的权力角逐，实在令人震撼。

Absolutely. This is a really wild storyline here in California. It's not unusual for California lawmakers to respond when they see red states taking actions that Democrats in California disagree with, such as on abortion or transgender rights or other policies like this. But to see this kind of just raw hardball politics just really cutthroat power play between these states is just pretty wild to witness and to cover.

听起来你的意思是，加州将这种对抗态势提升到了全新高度。

It sounds like what you're saying is that what we're seeing here is California taking that dynamic to kind of a whole new level.

没错。这基本上就是一方耍手段，另一方也准备以牙还牙。

Yeah. This is basically, you know, one side's playing dirty. The other side's gonna jump in and play dirty too.

那我们来具体说说，加州究竟在做什么？

Well, let's talk about specifics. What exactly is California doing?

加州正在推动十年期中选区重划——也就是不公正划分选区——目的就是直接反击德州共和党的行为。但两州通过选区地图的方式存在差异：德州立法者可自行决定，而加州更复杂，立法者不能直接修改地图。

So California is passing a mid decade redistricting, redistricting, you know, a gerrymander, and the idea is to just do a direct counter punch to what the Texas Republicans are doing. The difference, though, is in the way that the two states can pass their maps. In Texas, lawmakers can do it on their own. And in California, it's more complicated. Lawmakers can't directly change the maps.

他们必须交由选民投票做最终批准。因为州宪法明确规定政客无权绘制政治选区地图。

They have to go to the voters and ask the voters to make the final approval. And the reason is that in the state constitution, it basically says that politicians don't have this power to draw political maps.

将我们聚集在这场终极之战中的，是我们的朋友——州长加文·纽瑟姆。

And the person who has brought us together for this fight of all fights is our friend, governor Gavin Newsom.

上周，纽瑟姆州长与民主党立法者在洛杉矶的新闻发布会上公布了他们的计划。

So governor Newsom and Democratic lawmakers laid their plan out at a press conference last week in Los Angeles.

我们正通过一个非常透明、临时且公开的程序推进工作。

We're working through a very transparent, temporary, and public process.

他们希望在11月发起一场特别选举。

What they wanna do is call for a special election in November.

我们将选区划分方案交由公投决定，把权力交还给人民。

We're putting the maps on the ballot, and we're giving the power to the people.

选民将决定是否修改宪法以接受这些新选区划分，这将帮助民主党在众议院翻转五个席位。

Where voters would decide if they wanna change the constitution to accept these new maps that would help Democrats flip five seats in the House of Representatives.

事情并不复杂。我们这么做是为了回应美国总统——他曾致电现任得克萨斯州州长说：给我找出五个席位来。

It's not complicated. We're doing this in reaction to a president of The United States that called a sitting governor of the state of Texas and said, find me five seats.

他们瞄准五个席位的原因是，得克萨斯州的共和党人正试图为共和党翻转该州的五个席位。

And the reason that they're going for five seats is that Texas Republicans are trying to flip five seats in Texas for the Republicans.

如今他再次试图操纵制度。他不遵守另一套规则，也不相信规则。因此，我们必须摒弃过去的做法。

And here he is once again trying to rig the system. He doesn't play by a different set of rules. He doesn't believe in the rules. And as a consequence, we need to disabuse ourselves of the way things have been done.

所以他们的论点是：这个国家实际上处于紧急状态，需要对特朗普总统进行更有效的制衡，而唯一的方法就是让民主党在明年赢得众议院的控制权。

So the argument is that this country is in basically a state of emergency, that there needs to be a more effective check on president Trump, and that the only way to do that is for Democrats to win control of the House of Representatives next year.

仅仅手拉手举行烛光守夜，空谈世界应当如何是远远不够的。

It's not good enough to just hold hands, have a candlelight vigil, and talk about the way the world should be.

要知道，在加利福尼亚，许多经历让人们觉得加州正特别受到本届政府的针对。

You know, here in California, there's a lot of experiences that make people feel like California specifically is under attack by this administration.

此时此刻就在外面，有数十名移民海关执法局探员。你觉得这是巧合吗？

Right outside, at this exact moment, are dozens and dozens of ICE agents. You think it's coincidental?

移民突袭行动、被总统推翻的气候立法、洛杉矶火灾后的救灾援助问题。因此加州民主党人的论点并不在于选区划分，他们真正想讨论的是美国正在发生的事。

The immigration raids, climate legislation that's been overturned by the president. There is a question of disaster aid from the fires in Los Angeles. And so the argument from Democrats in California is not about the maps. The Democrats are really trying to make the argument about what's happening in America.

这才是核心所在——关于权力。我想以这句话作结：我们正在赋予本州人民挽救民主的权力，不仅为了加州，更为了整个美利坚合众国。

That's what this is all about. It's about power, and I wanna end on this. We're giving the people of this state the power to save democracy, not just in California, but all across The United States Of America.

由于这些本质上都是要求选民自我否定，我想探讨当初这项法律为何能通过投票生效。

Because all of this is basically asking voters to reverse themselves, I wanna talk about why this was even voted into law in the first place.

没错。我准备竞选这个国家的州长。

Yeah. I'm going to run for governor of the state of the country.

这就让我们回到阿诺德·施瓦辛格时代。他于2003年2月就职，当时正值其演员生涯的巅峰期。

So here we get to go back to the era of Arnold Schwarzenegger. He took office in 02/2003, and he was obviously in the peak of his fame as an actor.

再见吧，宝贝。

Hasta la vista, baby.

他之前还曾是一名健美运动员。

He had had a career as a bodybuilder.

他曾是州长。他曾是州长。

He was the governator. He was the governator.

我会回来的。

I'll be back.

他来到萨克拉门托时毫无担任公职的经验，政治经验也很少。他在一次采访中告诉我，当他上任时，他甚至没有意识到划分选区界限是立法者权力的一部分。他描述了自己逐渐意识到这样一个观念：选区界限的划分方式使得选区要么极度自由派，要么极度保守派，以确保政客们能够连任。他认为这造成了巨大的障碍。

And he came to Sacramento with no experience holding office and little experience in politics. And he told me in an interview that when he got into office, he didn't even realize that drawing district boundaries is part of the portfolio of power that lawmakers have. He described kind of becoming aware of this idea that the district boundaries had been drawn in a way so that the districts were intensely liberal or intensely conservative in order to assure reelection for the politicians. And he felt that it created such a barrier.

这种僵局。对吧？正是如此。

Such gridlock. Right? Exactly.

你必须明白，加利福尼亚人民派我去萨克拉门托不是为了支持民主党或共和党。他们派我去萨克拉门托是为了彻底改革。

Well, you have to understand that the people of California did not send me to Sacramento to support the Democrats or to support the Republicans. They have sent me to Sacramento to clean house.

他的执政风格之一就是这种两党合作的方式。他真正尝试以中间路线行事。他谈到与共和党人讨论环境政策，或与民主党人讨论教育改革。而立法者们会对他说，这是个很好的想法，我喜欢你说的内容，但我不能投票支持。

Part of his governing style was really this kind of bipartisan approach. He was really trying to do things in a centrist way. And he talked about discussing environmental policy with Republicans or discussing education reform with Democrats. And that the lawmakers would say to him, you know, that's a really good idea. I like what you're talking about, but I can't vote for it.

我代表的是一个非常自由派的选区，或者我代表的是一个非常保守的选区。

I represent a very liberal district or I represent a very conservative district.

就像他基本上在说，由于所有这些选区划分操纵，我无法完成任何事情。正是如此。

Like, he's basically saying, as a result of all this gerrymandering, I can't get anything done. Exactly.

加利福尼亚人民并没有从一个如此操纵选区的制度中受益，以至于99%的在任者都能在他们自己划分的选区中连任。

The people of California are not served well by a system that is so gerrymandered that 99% of the incumbents get reelected in the districts that they themselves do.

这也意味着，在施瓦辛格看来，他们不需要非常努力就能保住席位，因为竞争非常少，他们几乎没有动力去改变他们的治理方式或做出任何不同的行动。

And it also means that they, in, you know, Schwarzenegger's view, didn't have to work very hard to keep their seats because there was very little competition and there was very little incentive for them to sort of change the way that they governed or do anything differently.

我们需要一个真正具有竞争力的立法选区体系，这样当立法者回到选区时，才能被问责。

We need a system of truly competitive legislative districts so when lawmakers go home, can be held accountable.

于是他对重新划分选区边界这个想法产生了兴趣，希望以更独立、更少党派偏见的方式进行。最终他提出了一项提案，将这项权力交给一个独立委员会。

So he becomes interested in this idea of redrawing the district boundaries in a way that is more independent and less partisan. And he ends up putting a proposal forward that would put this power in the hands of an independent commission.

委员会。立法选区将由政治背景多元的公民划分，他们能反映本州人口构成且无利益冲突。

Commission. Legislative districts will be drawn by politically diverse citizens and who reflect our state's population and are free of conflict of interest.

这个新独立委员会的构想反响如何？因为按照你的描述，这基本上与之前的情况完全相反。

How is this received, this idea of this new independent commission? Because it's basically the opposite of what was happening in your description.

是的，这引起了争议。2008年加州选民对此进行了公投。那是一场激烈的斗争，投票结果非常接近。2008年的第一项议案仅以不到51%的得票率通过，但后来加州投票决定扩大权力范围，将国会选区划分也纳入其中。

Yeah. It was contentious. So this question goes on the ballot in 2008 for California voters. And it was a big fight, and it was a close vote. The first measure in 2008 passed by just under 51%, but then California voted to expand the power to include drawing lines for Congress.

那次投票以压倒性优势通过，约60%的选民支持。同时期有人试图废除独立委员会，但被否决了。基本上在几年内，通过三次投票确立了选民希望从政客手中收回这项权力，交给独立委员会的意愿。

And that one passed overwhelmingly. About 60% of voters were for it. And also during this time, there was an attempt to repeal the independent commission, and that was defeated. So basically, within a couple of years, there were three votes that upheld the the voters' interest in having this power taken away from politicians and be given to this independent commission.

基本上，选民明确表达了他们对独立性的支持。

Basically, the voters made it very clear that they like the idea of independence.

没错。这对不公正划分选区和政客操控划分过程的行为是致命打击。之后民主党反而在独立委员会重划选区后获得了更多席位。虽然加州整体偏民主党，但自独立委员会成立以来，加州某些地区确实出现了激烈竞争。

Correct. And this was game over for gerrymandering and for politicians controlling the line drawing process. And after that, Democrats actually picked up more seats after the independent committee redrew the maps. The state overall is very democratic. But we've seen since the independent commission was put in place that some regions of California are really competitive.

现在我们经常看到势均力敌的众议院选举，胜负差距极小，选区在两党之间频繁易主也不再罕见。

And now we routinely have house races that are nail biters. They're super close, and it's no longer uncommon to see house districts flip back and forth between the two parties.

我想指出，很多人可能会惊讶地听到这个独立重划选区的倡议是由共和党州长推动的，而反对的是民主党或至少部分民主党人。因为公众对不公正划分选区的普遍认知是，共和党常被指控这样做，而民主党则公开反对。对吧？

I just wanna point out that I feel like a lot of people might be surprised to hear that this independent redistricting initiative was being pushed by a Republican governor and that it was Democrats or at least some Democrats who were opposed to it. Because I feel like the public perception of gerrymandering, just generally, is that Republicans are the ones who are often accused of it. Right? And it's the Democrats who oppose it publicly.

确实如此，尤其是现在。埃里克·霍尔德，巴拉克·奥巴马时期的司法部长，已成为独立选区重划的重要支持者。但实际上，你知道，在全国各州，无论哪个政党控制立法机构，通常都会进行选区划分操纵。无论是民主党还是共和党，他们通常都会设法让事情对自己有利。

Yeah. It does seem like that, especially now. Eric Holder, who was Barack Obama's attorney general, has become a big champion of independent redistricting. But in fact, you know, in states across the country, whichever party holds control of the legislature usually engages in gerrymandering. Whether they're Democrats or Republicans, they will usually try to work things to their advantage.

所以这并不完全是民主党或共和党的问题。正如你所说，这是一个权力与无权力的问题。没错。好的。考虑到所有这些，政客们和公众似乎都希望这种独立系统，他们之间基本上达成了共识。

So it's not really a Democrat Republican thing. It's, as you said, a power, no power thing. Correct. Okay. So given all of that, that there's basically this consensus between the politicians and what the public seems to want, that they all like this independent system.

现在采取的策略是说，好吧，我们实际上要反悔了，这感觉有点令人震惊。

It feels sort of striking that the tactic now is to say, okay. We're actually gonna go back on that.

是的，这是一个难以把握的界限。我的意思是，一方面，纽瑟姆和民主党人表示，我们相信独立选区重划。我们为这个系统感到自豪。我们希望整个国家都能像加州那样做。

Yeah. It's a tough line to walk. I mean, on the one hand, Newsom and the Democrats are saying, we believe in independent redistricting. We're proud of the system. We wish that the entire country would do it the way California does.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但他们现在说，情况真的很糟糕。基本上，特朗普总统给民主带来了紧急情况，需要一种不同的紧急应对措施。他们告诉选民，这只是暂时的，这种选区划分操纵将在接下来的三次选举中实施，然后加州将恢复使用其独立委员会。

But they're saying that right now, things are really bad. And that basically, president Trump has created an emergency for democracy, and it requires a a different and emergent response. They're telling voters that this will only be temporary, that this gerrymander will be in place for the next three elections, and then California will go back to using its independent commission.

对。他们基本上是在说，我们仍然相信这个概念，但我们暂停是因为世界正处于危机之中。

Right. They're basically saying, we still believe in this concept, but we're pausing because the world is on fire.

是的。因此，加州的民主党领导人决定尝试，尽管最终并不能保证这会为他们带来回报。

Yeah. And so the Democratic leaders California, they decide to go for it even though there's no guarantee that it will pay off for them in the end.

我们稍后回来。那么，劳雷尔，当民主党领导人试图召集这次特别选举以重新划分选区时，会发生什么？

We'll be right back. So, Laurel, what happens when democratic leaders try to call this special election in this effort to redraw the maps?

嗯，他们必须从绘制新地图开始，这在过去几周里非常秘密地进行。然后在周一早上，立法者们回到萨克拉门托，提出了一系列法案。其中一项包含了重新绘制的新地图。其他的法案则呼吁举行特别选举，并做出其他必要的修改，以便将此事提交给选民考虑。早上好。

Well, they have to start by drawing the maps, and that happened very secretively over the course of the last few weeks. And then on Monday morning, the legislators came back to Sacramento and introduced a package of bills. One of them contained the new maps that had been redrawn. Others, you know, called for the special election and made other changes that would need to be made to kind of send this thing to the ballot for voters to consider. Good morning.

早上好。

Good morning.

我宣布2025年8月19日议会选举委员会的听证会正式开始。接着在周二，将有一场

I'd like to call the 08/19/2025 hearing of the assembly elections committee to order. And then Tuesday, there's

听证会，民主党议员将在会上陈述选民应有机会修改宪法并批准这次临时选区划分的理由。

a hearing where democratic lawmakers make their case that voters should get the chance to change the constitution and approve this temporary gerrymander.

你可以开始了。

You may begin.

谢谢主席女士和各位同僚。早上好。我很荣幸提交ACA八号法案，但请别误会，我并不乐意站在这里。

Thank you, madam chair and and colleagues. Good morning. I'm pleased to present ACA eight, but make no mistake, I'm not happy to be here.

他们的立场非常明确。

And they're really clear.

ACA八号法案及其配套法案是一场我们不愿面对、也非我们选择的斗争的最终结果。

ACA eight and its companion bills are the culmination of a fight that we don't want, and it's a fight that we didn't choose.

基本上，他们是在说

Basically, they're saying

危在旦夕。

on the line.

特朗普总统迫使我们采取这一行动。

President Trump has forced us to do this.

而ACA援助正是我们对这一不民主、非美国式权力攫取的回应。

And ACA aid is our response to this undemocratic and un American power grab.

当然，

And, of course

主席女士，我提议进行修正。

Madam chair, I make a motion to amend.

修正什么？委员会里的共和党人感到不满。

Amend what? Republicans on the committee are upset.

我直到昨晚才收到这个，因为我们未被通知。

I didn't get this till last night because we were not informed.

他们觉得民主党人在强行推进。缺乏透明度。作为少数党，他们被排除在绘制地图的流程之外。没错。而共和党在加州立法机构中票数不足，无法通过投票否决任何提案。

They feel like Democrats are ramming it through. There's no transparency. They're in the minority, so they were left out of the process of drawing the maps. Right. And Republicans just don't have the votes in the California legislature to kill anything with their votes.

我请求将修正案内容载入会议记录。

I ask to read the amendments into the journal.

附议。所以他们正竭尽所能阻挠进程，拖延进度。我拒绝接受。不行。主席女士，基于什么理由？

Second. So they're doing everything they can to gum up the works and slow down the process. I reject that. No. On what grounds, madam chair?

这是我的决定。

My decision.

能否请您说明ACA的成本？这将让加州纳税人承担多少费用？

Can you speak to the cost of the ACA and how much is it gonna cost the taxpayers of California then?

共和党人提出的另一个担忧点在于举行特别选举的巨大成本。

Another point of concern raised by Republicans is just the sheer cost of putting on a special election.

大约在两亿至两亿五千万美元之间。

Somewhere between two hundred and two hundred fifty million dollars.

好的。那么

Okay. And so

采取违背选民意愿行动的根本理念。同样存在实质性争议。确实如此。要知道，重划选区委员会的一些前成员——我是注册民主党人，一直都是——包括一些民主党人在内，他们对改变这一程序的想法感到不满。

And the fundamental idea of taking an action that goes against the will of the voters. So substantive arguments too. Absolutely. And, you know, there are some former members of the redistricting commission I'm a registered democrat, always have been. Including some who are democrats who are just upset about the idea of changing the process.

这不能以牺牲加州宪法或授权公平无党派重划选区的加州选民利益为代价。

This can't be at the expense of the California constitution nor the California voters who mandated fair nonpartisan redistricting.

将这项权力交还给政客的想法，而选民曾非常明确地将此权力从他们手中收回。

And the idea of taking this power back to politicians that voters had very explicitly taken away from them.

加州为选区重划设立了黄金标准。现在不是从创新民主倒退的时候。谢谢。

California set the gold standard for redistricting. This is not the time to take a step back from innovative democracy. Thank you.

接下来是公众评论时间。

So then it was time for a public comment.

这是为我们支持的人们准备的。

This is for our people in support.

谢谢。我是埃尔默·利扎迪，在此代表

Thank you. Elmer Lizardi here on

代表加州劳工联合会。

behalf of the California Federation of Labor Unions.

代表加州计划生育协会。桑德拉·布雷罗代表SEIU加州分会。身为自豪的UAW成员表示坚定支持。当支持者发言时，他们大多来自与民主党结盟的强大机构代表

On behalf of Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California. Sandra Brerero on behalf of SEIU California. Proud UAW member in strong support. And when the supporters went, they were mostly representatives from powerful institutions that are aligned

现在请反对方代表到麦克风前发言。

with the Democratic party. We'll now take the opposition. Please come to the mic.

我们按排依次进行。

We're go row by row.

而当轮到反对方发言时

And then when it was time for the opposition

我从小被教导两个错误不等于一个正确。

I was always brought up to believe that two wrongs do not make a right.

那时我们看到了大量情绪爆发。

That's where we saw a lot of emotion come out.

我强烈反对这项法案及其赤裸裸的虚伪。

I strongly oppose this bill and the blatant hypocrisy.

恕我直言，主张是要维护民主。但通过暂停民主来维护民主是行不通的。强烈反对你们使用的这种霸凌手段。

All due respect, the argument is that we want to preserve democracy. You cannot preserve democracy by suspending it. Strong opposition to this bullying method you're using.

他们中许多人是共和党人。

A lot of them were Republicans.

加利福尼亚州的共和党人已经被剥夺了权利。这将进一步剥夺我们的权利。而且我们看到

California Republicans are already disenfranchised. This will disenfranchise us more. And we see

他们中有很多人来自加利福尼亚州那些可能失去代表性的地区。

A lot of them were from areas of California that could become less represented.

你们实际上是在帮我们一个忙，所以谢谢你们，因为人们会大规模地反对这件事。

And you guys are actually doing us a favor, so thank you because people are gonna come out in mass against this.

他们中有些人警告立法者，他们可能会真正疏远那些把他们选上台的选民。

And some of them are warning the lawmakers that they could really alienate the voters who put them in office.

好的。既然没有证人和反对意见，我们将回到主席台。各位成员，有什么问题或意见吗？

Okay. Seeing no witnesses and opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais. Members, any questions, comments?

所以听起来这些评论者基本上是在说，你们可能不想这样做。你们可能是在出卖你们的选民。他们已经非常清楚地表达了他们的愿望，那就是独立的选区重划。

So it sounds like some of these commenters are basically trying to say, you might not wanna do this. You might be selling out your voters. They've been pretty clear about what they want, and that what they want is independent redistricting.

对。

Right.

我们很多人更喜欢旧的规则。我们更喜欢我们都同意遵守的那些规则。对。

Many of us prefer the old rules. We prefer the agreement we all had to play by those rules. Right.

民主党人也认识到了这一点。

And Democrats recognize that.

但是当独裁者改变我们用来决定谁有权的规则和规范时，我们要么反击，要么可能永远失去未来再次反击的能力。

But when autocrats change the rules and the norms that we are using to decide who has power, we can either fight back or we can potentially permanently lose the ability ever to fight back again in the future.

但他们之所以这么想，是因为加州许多选民对特朗普政府非常不满，并且明白如果民主党赢得众议院，就能对特朗普的一些冲动行为进行制约，选民们或许愿意暂时搁置加州长期以来的做法，

But they think that because, you know, many voters in California are really unhappy with the Trump administration and understand that if Democrats win the house, they'll be able to put a check on some of Trump's impulses, that voters might be open to setting aside the way that California has done things for

长久以来的

a long

惯例，转而尝试不同的方式，至少短期内如此。当然，

time and do it differently, at least for a little while. But, of course

最重要的是，加州选民将最终决定是否采用这些新的选区划分方案。

Foremost, California voters will have the final say on whether or not these new district badgeries get used or not.

决定权在选民手中。这件事最终还是要由选民来裁决。

The voters will get to decide. This is ultimately going back to the voters for their decision.

因为在加州，与德州和其他共和党主导的州不同，我们尊重选民的意愿。

Because here in California, unlike in Texas and other Republican led states, we respect the will of the voters.

该法案以五比二通过。而

That bill passes five to two. And

这就是结果。民主党控制着立法机构，他们让法案在委员会通过，再经两院表决。昨天州长已将其签署为法律，这意味着加州将在11月举行特别选举。

so that's what happens. The Democrats control the legislature. They pass this thing out of committee. It passes through both houses. And yesterday, the governor signed it into law, which means that California is now heading toward a special election in November.

那么问题就变成了：以民主党为主的加州选民，是否会认同他们的代表认为非常时期需采取非常手段的观点？选民们是否会把特朗普政府的作为和德州的举动视为议员们眼中的紧急状态？

And I guess then the question will become, will California voters who are mostly Democratic, will they agree with their representatives that basically unusual times call for unusual measures? Like, will voters perceive the Trump administration and what Texas is doing to be the emergency that lawmakers seem to?

这次选举将揭晓答案。有理由相信他们有机会成功。目前独立民调显示，加州选民仍非常认可独立委员会制度，不希望将其从州宪法中彻底删除。但与此同时，也有迹象表明这种临时性方案获得支持。纽瑟姆阵营的民调数据看起来不错，前总统奥巴马本周还公开表示支持，这相当重要。

That's what we're gonna find out with this election. There is reason to believe they have a shot at this. So far, the independent polls show that California voters continue to really like their independent commission, that they don't wanna completely delete this from the state constitution. But at the same time, we are seeing signals that there's support for this temporary approach. Newsom's camp has some polling numbers that look promising, and former president Obama publicly endorsed it this week, which was pretty huge.

他称这是一种负责任的做法。但总有可能不会成功。对此将会有强烈的反对声音。

He called it a responsible approach. But there is always the chance that it won't succeed. There will be a robust opposition to this.

中期选举前针对选区重划的斗争一直激烈且声势浩大。

The fight against redistricting before the midterm elections has been fierce and vocal.

你知道，对于一个不断谈论民主的人来说，他每一步都在破坏它。

You know, for someone who keeps talking about democracy, he undermines it at every step.

全国范围内的共和党人正在筹集资金来反对它。

Republicans nationally are raising money to oppose it.

今天加入辩论的是前州长阿诺德·施瓦辛格，他在X上发布了这张照片，说：'我正在为选区划分不公的战斗做准备'，同时穿着一件写着'终结选区划分不公'的T恤。

And entering the debate today is former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger posting this picture on X saying, I'm getting ready for the gerrymandering battle while wearing a t shirt that says terminate gerrymandering.

施瓦辛格州长和其他最初改革的支持者将会努力维持加州进行选区重划的方式。

And governor Schwarzenegger and other supporters of the original reforms are gonna be fighting to hold on to the way California does its redistricting.

施瓦辛格州长有二十年与选区划分不公斗争的历史，他认为无论谁做，选区划分不公都是邪恶的。

Governor Schwarzenegger has a twenty year history of battling gerrymandering, and he believes gerrymandering is evil no matter who does it.

所以我认为我们正进入一个不完全可预测的局面。

So I think we are heading into a not perfectly predictable situation.

好的。所以民主党人是否能得到这些新地图仍然是一个悬而未决的问题。但这里的另一个赌注似乎是，即使民主党人确实得到了这些新地图，问题在于这些地图是否真的会产生他们希望的结果。对吧？就像在全国各地，民主党人正在失去很多选民，而且不仅仅是任何选民，而是那些传统上似乎是坚定民主党支持者的选民。

Okay. So it's still somewhat of an open question whether the Democrats will even get these new maps. But another gamble here seems to also be that even if the Democrats do get these new maps, the question is whether these maps will actually produce the results that they're hoping for. Right? Like, everywhere across the country, democrats are losing a lot of voters, and not just any voters, but voters who seem traditionally solidly democrats.

我在想有色人种、年轻人。民主党人正在认识到，并且一直在认识到，他们不能再像过去那样依赖这些人了。

I'm thinking about people of color, young people. These are folks that the democrats are learning and have been learning that they can no longer rely on in the ways that they're used to.

没错。我认为你的意思是，最终选民依然拥有投票权。因此，即便这些选区划分图的绘制方式旨在偏袒某一政党，真正关键的还是哪些选民会出来投票以及他们如何投票。对于民主党在加利福尼亚州瞄准的五个席位，其中三个他们非常有信心民主党候选人会胜出，而另外两个他们希望能翻转，但绝非板上钉钉的事。

Right. I think what you're saying is that in the end, voters still get to vote. And so even if these maps are drawn in a way that's meant to help one party or help the other party, What really matters is who turns out and how they vote. And with these five seats that the Democrats are targeting in California, three of them, they feel very confident that the Democratic candidate will win. And two of them, they're hoping they can flip them, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.

我要指出的另一点是，在全国范围内，共和党比民主党拥有更多重新划分选区图的机会。

The other point I would make is that across the country, Republicans have more opportunities to redraw their maps than Democrats do.

那么在这种情况下，其他民主党州是否会效仿那些共和党州的做法呢？

Would other Democratic states then match those Republican states too in that case?

我们拭目以待。纽森州长确实在呼吁他们这样做，并请求其他蓝州也加入这场博弈。但机会更为有限。一个事实是，没有哪个州像加利福尼亚这样拥有如此多的众议院席位。这是一个限制因素。

We'll see. Governor Newsom is definitely calling on them to do that and asking other blue states to get into this game as well. But there are fewer opportunities. One thing is that there's no state as big as California that has as many house seats as California. So that's one limitation.

另一个原因与选区重划的规则有关。每个州的规则都不同。例如在纽约州，州长正在讨论某种形式的选区重划。但由于纽约州的法律规定，这种改变要到2026年选举后才能生效。还有一些由民主党控制的州，如马里兰州或伊利诺伊州，但能争取的席位增长空间非常有限。

Another has to do with kind of the rules of redistricting. They're different in every single state. And so in New York, for example, the governor is talking about doing some kind of redistricting. But because of the way the laws are written in New York, it wouldn't take effect until after the twenty twenty six election. And then there are other states where Democrats have control, like Maryland or Illinois, but the opportunity for pickups is very minimal.

他们可能只能通过重新划分地图来多获得一两个席位，而且目前没有明确迹象表明他们准备这样做。

They might only be able to redraw the maps to pick up another one seat or two seats, and there's not necessarily evidence that they're ready to do that.

但从理论上讲，这种针锋相对的局面可能会持续下去，一个共和党州的举动会引发一个民主党州的回应，就像一场选区划分的军备竞赛。是的。我也在想，这种对重划选区的关注是否会分散政党的精力，使他们不再专注于说服民众相信他们才是领导国家的正确人选，拥有更好的政策。比如，为什么不试试传统的说服方式来赢得选举呢？

But theoretically, this could just keep kinda going tit for tat where one Republican state gets matched by a Democratic state in sort of like a gerrymandering arms race. Yep. I also wonder if this focus on redrawing maps takes away from the parties basically just doing the work of convincing people that they're the right ones to lead the country, that they are the ones with the better policies. Like, what about just, I don't know, old fashioned persuasion to win elections?

这是个非常好的问题，我认为这是民主党在这场斗争中必须面对的。你会听到人们质疑：这真的是选民关心的问题吗？划分选区边界如何解决他们的需求？

Yeah. It's a really good question, and I think it's something that the Democratic Party is gonna have to confront in this battle. You're gonna hear people saying, is this really speaking to what voters care about? Drawing district lines? How is that addressing their needs?

这如何解决汽油或食品杂货的高成本问题？如何改善他们孩子所在学校的表现？因此，这绝对会成为一个争议点。他们还能说服选民吗？还是只是在改变游戏规则以避免这样做？但展示斗争精神也是一种说服方式，尤其是在特朗普时代，政治氛围异常激烈。

How is that addressing the high cost of gasoline or groceries? How is that addressing the performance of their schools that their children attend? And so it's absolutely going to be at issue here. Can they still persuade, or are they just changing the rules of the game so that they don't have to? But one version of persuasion is about showing fight, and particularly in the Trump era where there is a very cutthroat political dynamic.

在上次选举中，民主党被视为软弱无力，无法对抗特朗普总统的强势。而这个问题正给民主党一个机会，让他们能在刀光剑影的对抗中亮出刀刃。他们正在表明，自己会与共和党正面交锋，不会任由共和党改变游戏规则而不予反击。这彻底颠覆了他们作为现状维护者的形象——那些过分执着于程序与公平以至于忘记赢得选举和获取权力的政党。我认为，这次选举将展示民主党发生了多大的变化。

And in the last election where Democrats were seen as being weak and not being able to counter the strength of president Trump, this issue is giving Democrats an opportunity to bring a knife to a knife fight. They're showing that they are going to, you know, meet the Republicans where they're at. They're not gonna let Republicans change the game without putting up some fight. And they're really going against their reputation as being the defenders of the status quo who are just so obsessed with process and fairness that they forget about winning and getting power. And I think what we're gonna see in this election is how much the Democratic Party has changed.

不久前，米歇尔·奥巴马还说过，当对方降低底线时，我们要保持高尚。而现在我们看到，加州当选的民主党人不再遵循这一原则。他们宣称，当对方降低底线时，我们也会俯身相迎，并试图以其人之道还治其人之身。

It wasn't so long ago that Michelle Obama said when they go low, we go high. And now we're seeing that elected Democrats in California are not playing that game anymore. They're saying when they go low, we'll get down there with them, and that we'll try to beat them at their own game.

劳蕾尔，非常感谢你。

Laurel, thank you so much.

谢谢，瑞秋。很高兴能来到这里。

Thanks, Rachel. It was great to be here.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

以下是今日其他要闻

Here's what else

周四，一名联邦法官裁定新泽西州联邦检察官阿丽娜·哈芭已非法任职逾一个月，这使得该州本已瘫痪的联邦法院系统进一步陷入混乱。法官马修·W·布兰禁止哈芭女士参与任何在审案件，但暂缓执行该裁决，以待政府有机会提出申诉。

you need to know today. A federal judge on Thursday ruled that New Jersey's US attorney, Alina Habba, had been serving without legal authority for more than a month, thrusting the state's already paralyzed federal court system further into disarray. The judge, Matthew W. Bran, disqualified Ms. Haba from participating in any ongoing cases, although he paused the outcome of that decision until the government had had a chance to make its case.

这一裁决仍是对司法部的严厉谴责——在特朗普总统任内，该部门不遗余力地保荐其属意的联邦检察官留任。曼哈顿检方则宣布对市长埃里克·亚当斯的前首席顾问英格丽德·刘易斯·马丁提出全面腐败指控，指控其以权谋私换取金钱、蟹肉饼及在电视剧《哈林教父》中出镜等多项利益。就在指控前一天，亚当斯市长的另一位亲密顾问温妮·格雷科因试图将至少100美元现金藏于薯片袋中贿赂记者，被暂停其连任竞选团队职务。本期节目由奥利维亚·纳特、玛丽·威尔逊、埃里克·克鲁普克和尼娜·费尔德曼制作，莉兹·奥巴伦和佩奇·考伊特编辑，克里斯·伍德负责技术制作。

Still, the ruling was remarkable rebuke to a justice department that under president Trump has gone great lengths to keep its preferred US attorneys in their jobs. And Manhattan prosecutors announced sweeping corruption charges against mayor Eric Adams former chief adviser, Ingrid Lewis Martin, accusing her of trading her influence for a wide range of benefits including money, crab cakes, and an appearance on the television show Godfather of Harlem. The charges come just one day after another close adviser to mayor Adams, Winnie Greco, was suspended from his reelection campaign after trying to slip a reporter at least a $100 in cash inside a bag of potato chips. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Natt, Mary Wilson, Eric Krupke, and Nina Feldman. It was edited by Liz O'Balen and Paige Cowitt and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是本期《每日新闻》。我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯。周一再见。

That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you on Monday.