特朗普能否迫使蓝州城市与ICE合作？

我是凯瑟琳·本霍尔德，纽约时报每日通讯《世界》的主持人。

I'm Catherine Benhold, host of The World, a daily newsletter from The New York Times.

我曾用二十年时间在十多个国家报道新闻，有一天我突然想到：我想要读什么样的通讯呢？

I spent twenty years reporting from more than a dozen countries, and it occurred to me one day, what kind of newsletter would I like to read?

我不住在美国。

I don't live in The US.

我想为全球读者打造一份专属内容。

I want something especially for a global audience.

世界正是如此。

The world is just that.

每个工作日早晨，我们会为您带来最重要的新闻、我同事们从现场发回的报道，以及一些附带视频的惊喜内容。

Each weekday morning, we bring you the biggest stories, dispatches from my colleagues on the ground, and a few surprises with video too.

《世界》通讯。

The World Newsletter.

阅读最新内容并订阅，请访问 nytimes.com/theworld。

Read the latest and sign up at nytimes.com/theworld.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

早上好。

Good morning.

我是汤姆·霍默。

I'm Tom Homer.

我是特朗普总统的边境事务主管。

I'm the border czar for president Trump.

我代表总统和美国专员前来。

I'm here on behalf of the president along with US commissioners.

几天前，总统的边境事务主管带着一个简单的信息前往明尼阿波利斯。

A few days ago, the president's border czar traveled to Minneapolis with a simple message.

我没有要求他们充当移民官员。

I didn't ask them to be immigration officers.

我要求他们作为警察，与警察合作来帮助我们

I'm asking them to be cops working with the cops to help us

把刑事犯罪的外国人从街头抓走。

take criminal aliens off the street.

当地官员越快与联邦移民官员合作，这些官员就会越快离开。

The faster local officials there cooperate with federal immigration agents, the faster those agents will leave.

这是一种常识性的合作，能帮助我们减少这里的人数。

This is common sense cooperation that allows us to draw down on the number of people we have here.

是的。

Yes.

我说过了。

I said it.

减少这里的人数。

Draw down the number of people here.

今天，我们来探讨为什么这种合作如此难以实现，甚至可能违法。

Today, the history of why that kind of cooperation is so difficult to pull off and potentially even illegal.

我转向我的两位同事哈迈德·阿里齐兹和埃内斯托·伦敦诺，请他们来解释。

I turned to two of my colleagues, Hamed Aliaziz and Ernesto Londono, to explain.

今天是2月2日，星期一。

It's Monday, February 2.

哈迈德，作为一名长期报道移民问题的记者，当你听到汤姆·霍曼向明尼阿波利斯的官员传达他那番话——即只要地方官员合作并提供协助，联邦特工人数就会减少——你当时在想什么？

Hamed, I wonder what you were thinking as a longtime immigration reporter when you heard Tom Homan deliver the message that he did to officials in Minneapolis, essentially offering that drawdown of federal agents if local officials cooperated and gave access.

我当时觉得，汤姆·霍曼非常适合代表特朗普政府传达这一信息。

I was thinking Tom Homan was uniquely fit to carry this message for the Trump administration.

你知道，他亲眼见证了自由派城市的地方执法机构与移民与海关执法局、联邦政府之间合作的整个演变过程。

You know, he is somebody who has seen the entire evolution of cooperation between local law enforcement in liberal cities with ICE, with the federal government.

他确实曾身处一个时代，十五年前，与地方执法机构密切合作是移民与海关执法局的常态。

He's really someone who was there at a time when this was just normal practice at ICE fifteen years ago to work closely with local law enforcement.

是的。

Mhmm.

而他也见证了这种合作逐渐消失的过程——它变成了一个政治议题，越来越多的地方政府认为与移民与海关执法局合作是不可接受的。

And he's been there as it's faded away, as it's become a political issue, and more and more local governments find it unacceptable to work alongside ICE.

因此，汤姆·霍曼在过去十年里一直为此而战，不仅在他担任特朗普政府第一任ICE负责人期间，还持续通过福克斯新闻和国会证词推动这一议程。

And so this is really a battle that Tom Homan has waged for a decade now, not only from his position as leading ICE during that first Trump administration, but continuously as well on Fox News and testimony to Congress.

这确实是汤姆·霍曼的核心议题。

This is really a core issue for Tom Homan.

那么，霍曼所体现的这种从合作到官方不合作的演变历史究竟是怎样的？它又是从哪里开始的呢？

Well, what is that history that Homan seems to embody of this evolution from cooperation to official noncooperation, and and where does it start?

十五年前，在奥巴马政府时期，汤姆·霍曼负责领导遣返行动。

So fifteen years ago, during the Obama administration, Tom Homan was leading deportation efforts.

他是 overseeing 所有遣返官员的人。

He was the person overseeing all deportation officers.

我认为重要的是要了解，当某人在地方监狱被逮捕时，他们的指纹会上传到联邦数据库，而这个数据库会传递给ICE。

And I think it's important just to know that when someone gets arrested in a local jail, your fingerprints ping to a federal database, and that federal database goes to ICE.

因此，ICE 总是能知道谁被逮捕了，他们掌握着个人的记录，并能发现他们正在寻找的人是否被关在县监狱里。

So ICE is always aware when someone is arrested, they have records on individuals, and they find out if someone that they're looking for is in a county jail.

无论是在旧金山还是在阿拉巴马州，情况都一样。

And and it doesn't matter if it's in a San Francisco or in Alabama.

因此，奥巴马政府的一项关键策略是利用监狱和拘留所来抓捕人员。

And so one of the key strategies for the Obama administration was to utilize jails and prisons to pick up people.

当时，由于这个问题政治敏感性较低，移民与海关执法局（ICE）有权要求地方拘留所将在应获释后仍被扣留48小时。

And at that time, when it was a less political issue, ICE had the ability to request local jails to hold on to people forty eight hours after they're supposed to be released.

这使得ICE的工作变得非常简便，因为他们可以前往拘留所，一次性带走多人。

This made things really easy for ICE because they could show up to a jail, and they could take multiple people at once.

他们可以逮捕这些人，将他们送往ICE拘留中心，并予以遣返。

And they could arrest them, take them to ICE detention, and deport them.

因此，整个流程变得非常高效，ICE充分利用了全美各地的地方拘留所和监狱。

So this made the entire process very efficient, and they really tapped into local jails and prisons across The United States.

这建立了一条从地方执法到联邦移民行动的无缝通道，对双方来说都基本奏效。

So it created a very seamless pipeline from local law enforcement to federal immigration efforts and seemed to be working for more or less both sides.

没错。

Exactly.

而且他们当时抓到了大量人员。

And they were getting big numbers.

霍尔曼先生？

Mister Holman?

与您不同，先生，我已佩戴警徽和携带枪支二十九年了。

Unlike you, sir, I've carried a badge and gun for twenty nine years.

我认为我关心的是这个国家的安全，我认为保护国家和我们社区的安全是我的职责。

I think it's I care about the security of this country, and I think it's my job to protect the security of this country and security of our communities.

所以我认为最大的威胁是那些想来到这个国家并造成伤害的人。

So I think the biggest threat is those that wanna come to this country and do harm.

当时霍曼在国会作证时也提到了这一点，他确实在阐述奥巴马政府的做法是合理的。

And this is something that Homan at the time was testifying to in congress, you know, really speaking to the idea that the Obama administration, their approach, it makes sense.

我从事这份工作已经很久了。

I've been doing this for a long time.

曾经当我是一名街头特工时，我们会直接出去逮捕非法居留的外国人，因为他们违反了法律，而我是在执行移民法。

There was a time when I was a street agent, we'd just go out and arrest aliens because they're here in violation of law, and I'm enforcing immigration law.

但归根结底，我产生了什么影响呢？

But at the end of the day, what impact did I make?

与此同时，我正在逮捕这些非法滞留的人，他们可能没有犯下其他罪行，但却有一个儿童掠夺者从州监狱释放出来，因为我们没有在全国所有监狱都派驻人员。

At the same time I'm arresting this person that's here illegally, but maybe hasn't committed another crime, there's a child predator walking out of state prison because we didn't have a presence in all the jails across the country.

我们正在优先处理我们逮捕的人群类型。

We're prioritizing the types of people we're arresting.

我们针对的是最恶劣的那部分人，而不是随意到处抓人。

We're going after the worst of the worst, and we're not just going out there willy nilly picking up people.

我们在每个监狱都有虚拟存在。

We have a virtual presence in every jail.

当一名非法移民被逮捕并录入指纹时，我们会立即发现该人员的信息，并采取行动将其驱逐出境。

When an alien gets arrested and fingerprinted, we're gonna find out about that alien, and we can take action on him and remove him from the country.

这个监狱模式对他来说非常合理。

This jail model really made sense to him.

移民与海关执法局将工作重点放在国家安全威胁人员和对公共安全构成威胁的非法移民身上，这个策略对我来说是合理的。

The strategy ICE has built on prioritizing what we do on national security threat aliens, aliens that are a threat to public safety, it makes sense to me.

这是正确的做法。

It's the right thing to do.

我们的目标是遣返40万人。

We're built to remove 400,000 people.

让我们让这40万人的数字真正有意义。

Let's make that 400,000 count.

所以我认为

So I think

那么，这种情况什么时候开始改变呢？

And so when does this start to change?

你知道，奥巴马政府在遣返方面非常有效，以至于奥巴马总统开始被贴上‘遣返总管’的标签。

Well, you know, the Obama administration became so effective at deportations that president Obama started to be labeled the deporter in chief.

对。

Right.

‘遣返总管’，这可不是什么好评价。

Deporter in chief, not in a good way.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

他当时面临移民倡导者和某些国会议员的强烈批评，他们对这种每年驱逐数十万人的做法极为不满。

He was facing intense criticism from immigrant advocates and certain congressional officials who were quite critical of this approach where they were deporting hundreds of thousands of people a year.

在此期间，逐渐兴起一种理念和运动，认为城市应当成为移民的避风港，应保护他们免受移民执法的干扰。

And during this time, there starts to become a growing idea, a growing movement toward the fact that cities should be a sanctuary for immigrants, that they should be protected from immigration enforcement.

对。

Right.

为了补充一点，我们最早制作的几期《每日新闻》之一就是关于庇护城市这个概念的。

And just to jump in because one of the very first episodes of the daily we ever did was about this idea of a sanctuary city.

这个理念最初源于教会决定将教堂变为保护无证移民的场所，并逐渐在全国范围内传播开来。

This idea literally emerges from churches' decisions to turn their sanctuaries into a place that protects undocumented immigrants that spread around the country.

最终，它演变为全国各地城市的一项法律运动。

And eventually, it becomes an urban legal movement in places all over the country.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

庇护运动的重点在于确保地方执法部门不与移民与海关执法局（ICE）合作，也不允许ICE利用地方拘留所作为高效转运人员至拘留中心并最终驱逐出境的渠道。

And it becomes a focus for the sanctuary movement to ensure that local law enforcement is not working with ICE and is not allowing ICE to have that efficient funnel of people from local lockups to detention centers for ICE and ultimately deportations.

请再提醒我们一下，为什么庇护运动会聚焦于地方执法部门？他们提出的论点是什么？

And just remind us why the sanctuary movement ends up focusing on local law enforcement, what the argument they're making is.

是的。

Yeah.

有几种论点。

There are several arguments.

其中之一是，如果移民知道地方执法部门不与ICE合作，他们就更愿意向地方执法部门提供线索、报告犯罪，也更愿意与地方执法部门互动。

One is the idea that immigrants in a community will feel more willing to come forward to local law enforcement with tips, with reports of crime, and more willing to interact with local law enforcement because they know that local law enforcement is not working with ICE.

因此，从根本上说，人们相信这能让社区更安全。

So that base level, there's a belief that it makes communities safer.

此外，地方监狱通常不会获得额外资金来协助ICE、为ICE羁押人员。

And then local jails are typically not given money, extra money for interacting with ICE, for holding people for ICE.

因此，地方司法管辖区确实承担了实际成本。

So there is a real cost to local jurisdictions.

而且，就在那时，当移民局让这些监狱延长关押时间以便前来接人时，出现了几起诉讼，涉及一些本不应被额外关押的人。

And, you know, around that time when ICE is getting these jails to hold people for a longer period of time so that they could come and pick them up, there were several lawsuits in which individuals who should not have been held longer for ICE were locked up.

我认为这也让一些社区开始犹豫了。

And I think that gave pause to some of these communities as well.

为了说明一下，他们面临诉讼是因为那些为了给移民局腾出时间来接人而被多关押数日的移民，实际上是在我们所讨论的任何司法管辖区的名义下遭受了非法的额外惩罚。

And just to explain, they're facing lawsuits because those immigrants who are being held for extra days in order for ICE to be able to come and get them are essentially facing an illegal extra punishment on behalf of whatever jurisdiction we're talking about just so that ICE has a chance to deport them.

他们提起了诉讼，听起来在某些情况下，他们赢了。

They're suing, and sounds like in some cases, they're winning.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这些诉讼向地方监狱和地方政界人士表明，一旦移民局出错，你就要承担责任。

And I think what these lawsuits show local jails and local politicians was that when there's a mistake made by ICE, you're going to be on the hook.

你才是那个会被起诉的人。

You're the one who's going to be sued.

你将是那个面临额外审查的人。

You're the one who's going to face this extra scrutiny.

我认为这为像美国公民自由联盟这样的组织提供了更多依据，来指出这一点，说：你不想卷入这件事。

And I think it lent more ammo to organizations like the ACLU to point this out, to say, you don't want to get involved with this.

你应该设法摆脱这种潜在的责任。

You should try to rid yourself of this potential liability.

对。

Right.

让ICE去处理。

Leave it to ICE.

让他们做他们该做的事，但不要帮他们。

Let them do what they need to do, but don't help them.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道，移民系统和刑事司法系统应该保持分离。

You know, the immigration system and the criminal justice system should remain separate.

活动人士和移民倡导者提出一个观点，即ICE逮捕的一些人甚至可能从未被正式起诉，或者最终指控并未导致定罪。

And there's an argument from activists and immigrant advocates that some of these individuals that ICE has picked up have been maybe not even charged after they've been arrested, or the charges ultimately don't lead to the conviction.

因此，这些人并不一定符合罪犯的定义，但他们已被逮捕并卷入了刑事司法系统。

And so these are individuals who don't necessarily meet the definition of a criminal, but they've been arrested and thrown into the criminal justice system.

结果，他们被以本不应如此的方式移交给了ICE。

And as a result, they are being transferred to ICE in a way that they should not be.

那么，哈米德，一旦这种不合作的理念逐渐落实，它会是什么样子？范围会扩大到什么程度？

So, Hamed, once this idea of noncooperation settles in, what does that look like, and how broad does it become?

你知道，在奥巴马政府后期，像加利福尼亚这样的地方开始抵制延长羁押时间以便ICE前来接人的做法。

You know, it's during this time toward the end of the Obama administration where places like California buck back at the idea of holding people longer so that ICE can come pick them up.

因此，你看到奥巴马政府当时真的在努力寻找办法——那时汤姆·霍曼也在场——试图与这些自由派司法管辖区合作。

So you see the Obama administration really try to figure out a way, and this is during a time when Tom Homan's there, to work with these liberal jurisdictions.

于是他们提出了这样一个方案：你们不必为了我们而延长某人的羁押时间，但能否在有人获释前48小时通知我们，以便我们能在监狱接人？

So they come up with this idea that, okay, you don't have to hold on to somebody longer for us, but how about you notify us forty eight hours before somebody's released from custody so that we could be there at the jail and pick them up?

是的。

Mhmm.

所有这些责任、潜在的诉讼，嘿，你们都不用担心。

All that liability, all those potential lawsuits, hey, you don't have to worry about that.

只要在有人获释前通知我们一声，你们就不必再继续关押他们。

Just give us a heads up before someone's released, and you don't need to hold on to them longer.

所以仍然存在一定程度的合作。

So some low level of cooperation is still happening.

是的。

Yeah.

联邦政府将此作为一项可选方案。

The federal government offers it as an option.

但随后唐纳德·特朗普凭借严厉打击移民和驱逐大量移民的主张赢得了总统大选。

But then Donald Trump wins the presidency on the basis of cracking down on immigration and deporting many immigrants.

因此，这成为许多进步派城市进一步限制这种合作水平的原因。

And so it becomes a cause for many of these progressive cities to limit even that level of collaboration.

在此期间，加利福尼亚州实施了一项广泛的庇护州政策，极大限制甚至严格限制了地方执法机构与移民与海关执法局之间的合作与互动。

During this time, California puts in place an expansive sanctuary state policy, really limiting, severely limiting the cooperation and interaction between local law enforcement and ICE.

很快，你就会看到全国各地的城市和管辖区纷纷采纳这种限制与联邦政府及ICE合作的做法，因为人们认为这是在帮助特朗普总统。

And soon, you start seeing cities and jurisdictions across the country taking up this idea of limiting any type of cooperation with the federal government and with ICE because it was seen as a way of helping president Trump.

所以基本上，到这个时候，任何形式的合作之门都关闭了。

So basically, at this point, the door comes down on any form of any cooperation.

是的。

Yeah.

合作变得非常有限。

It becomes really limited.

我的意思是，监狱向ICE提供移民释放日期信息的能力，仅限于非常特定的暴力犯罪者和严重罪犯。

I mean, the ability for a jail to provide the release date information for an immigrant that ICE wants became limited for very specific type of violent criminal, very serious criminal.

这使得像汤姆·霍曼这样的人生活变得艰难得多——当特朗普上台时，他被任命负责管理ICE。

And that made life much more difficult for people like Tom Homan, who, by the time Trump comes into office, he's put in place to run ICE.

他把加利福尼亚州以及整个‘庇护辖区’、‘庇护州’的理念视为自己的目标。

And he really makes California and this whole idea of a sanctuary jurisdiction, a sanctuary state, a cause for him.

他对此进行了不懈的聚焦。

He focuses on it relentlessly.

我认为，庇护城市带来了严重的执法人员和社区安全问题。

Sanctuary cities, I think, in my opinion, raise a serious officer safety and community safety issue.

这一时期传递的许多信息与我们现在听到的信息非常相似。

And much of the message during this time is very similar to the message that we're hearing now.

在庇护城市的一个县监狱里，我每逮捕一个人，就意味着一名执法人员必须上门到某户人家去逮捕一名有犯罪记录的人，而本可以在县监狱安全、保密的环境中逮捕他。

For every person that I can arrest in a county jail in a sanctuary city means that a law enforcement officer has to knock on the door of a home to arrest somebody that has a criminal history when they could have arrested him in the safety and security and privacy of a county jail.

2017年6月，他前往国会，告诉议员们，庇护城市不仅通过释放涉嫌犯罪者进入社区而使社区更不安全，还让移民与海关执法局更难找到这些人。

In June 2017, he goes in front of Congress, and he tells them that the idea of sanctuary cities makes it less safe for communities, not only by releasing alleged criminals into the communities, but making it harder for ICE to find these people.

迟早有一天，当移民与海关执法局的人员不得不前往民宅逮捕刑事外籍人员，而不是在庇护城市的县监狱里抓获他们时，这些人员晚上无法回家，那时庇护城市就会成为对移民与海关执法局人员的威胁。

It's only a matter of time before when the men and women of ICE don't go home at night because they had to go arrest a criminal alien in a home rather than get them in a county jail in a sanctuary city that the sanctuary cities is are are danger to the men and women of ICE.

当他们进入这些社区、上门实施逮捕时，发生暴力冲突、人员陷入危险的可能性更大，而且还有更多人仅仅因为与目标人物在一起而被逮捕。

And when they go into these communities and they go to homes and they try to make these arrests, there's a greater possibility of a violent confrontation, of people being in danger, and on top of that, more people being arrested just for being around some of the targets.

他基本上是在说，当我们无法获得对你们监狱的准入权时，移民与海关执法局以及整体移民执法工作就处于最糟糕、最具对抗性的状态。

He's basically saying ICE and immigration enforcement in general is at its worst and its most confrontational when we don't get the access that we believe we need to your jails in particular.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

但最终，特朗普的态度变得更严厉了。

But ultimately, Trump became harsher.

他的言辞变得更加激进。

His language became more aggressive.

这些城市和司法管辖区，实际上根本没有途径重新与移民与海关执法局合作。

And these cities and these jurisdictions, really, there was no pathway for them to come back online and work with ICE.

在当时特朗普政府的第一任期，这被视为这些社区保护移民免受其冲击的唯一方式或主要方式之一。

It was seen as the only way or one of the main ways for these communities to protect their immigrants from the onslaught that Trump was bringing to them during that first Trump administration.

最终，霍曼和政府试图就加州这项广泛而前所未有的全州性庇护政策提起诉讼，但失败了。

And ultimately, Homan and the administration's efforts to sue California over this really expansive, unprecedented statewide sanctuary policy, that failed.

霍曼和移民与海关执法局未能获得更多进入监狱的权限。

And Homan and ICE, they weren't able to get more access to jails.

他们得到的更少了。

They they got less.

所以，当汤姆·霍曼上周在明尼阿波利斯对当地官员说，只要让我们进入你们的监狱，一切都会顺利时，他完全清楚，因为他亲身经历了整个过程，这并不是一件简单的事。

So by the time Tom Homan ends up in Minneapolis last week and is telling local officials, just give us access to your jails, and everything will be copacetic, He knows full well because he's lived through the whole history of this, that that's not a simple thing.

在全美许多地方，这已经被法律明文规定为不可接受的行为。

It's been legally codified as unacceptable in many, many places around the country.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道，霍曼非常清楚。

You know, Homan is well aware.

他知道，在明尼阿波利斯的本地监狱中允许ICE介入，这种想法在政治上根本行不通。

He knows that this idea of working closely with ICE, allowing ICE into local jails in Minneapolis is a political nonstarter.

但他也意识到，允许某种程度的合作、尝试与ICE协同，或许能成为双方各退一步、宣称自己在这场斗争中获胜并就此走出危机的出路。

But he also recognizes that the idea of allowing some cooperation, some effort to work with ICE could really be a way, an off ramp for both sides to say that they won something in this battle, and now they can move on from this crisis.

穆罕默德，非常感谢。

Muhammad, thank you very much.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

广告后，我们将听埃内斯托·隆达诺讲述明尼阿波利斯如何应对特朗普政府最新的合作要求。

After the break, Ernesto Londano on how Minneapolis is navigating the Trump administration's latest demands for cooperation.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你好。

Hi.

我是伊万·彭。

I'm Ivan Penn.

我是《纽约时报》的能源记者。

I'm an energy reporter for The New York Times.

我认为很多人对电力习以为常，但它却是当前许多重大新闻事件的关键组成部分。

I think a lot of people take electricity for granted, but it's an essential piece of some of the biggest stories right now.

人工智能的崛起、气候变化的威胁，以及普通民众面对不断上涨的电费所面临的实际困难。

The rise of artificial intelligence, the threat of climate change, and the real challenges that everyday people are facing with increasing electric bills.

我每天都在与专家交谈，有时会前往偏远地区，调查能源在这些重大问题中所起的作用。

I spend my days talking to experts, sometimes traveling to really remote places, and investigating the role that energy plays in these huge issues.

我只是《纽约时报》成百上千名记者中的一员，我们每个人都对自己的报道领域充满专业性，并秉持同样的敬业精神。

I'm just one of hundreds and hundreds of journalists at the Times, experts in what they cover, who carry the same level of commitment to their reporting.

这正是《纽约时报》的可贵之处。

And that's the beauty of The New York Times.

我们所有人共同努力，帮助您更好地理解并认清当今的世界。

We're all working together to help you better understand and make sense of the world today.

所以，如果这引起了你的共鸣，而你还没有订阅，可以前往 nytimes.com/subscribe。

So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

埃内斯托，你身在明尼阿波利斯。

Ernesto, you're in Minneapolis.

那是你居住的地方。

It's where you live.

跟我们说说，汤姆·霍曼和政府提出的合作要求，是如何在当地实际影响明尼阿波利斯领导层的。

Talk to us about how these demands for cooperation from Tom Homan and the administration to leaders in Minneapolis are playing out there on the ground.

汤姆·马霍姆斯已经在这里待了几天了。

Well, Tom Mahomes has been here for a couple of days.

他见了州长、明尼阿波利斯市长和圣保罗市长。

He's met with the governor, with the mayor of Minneapolis, with the mayor of Saint Paul.

但在我看来，他最重要的会面反而是最受忽视的那一次。

But arguably, I think the most consequential meeting he's had is one of the ones that has drawn the least amount of attention.

他会见了亨内平县治安官道娜·威特。

He met with Hennepin County sheriff, Dawanna Witt.

这之所以重要，是因为威特治安官负责管理该州最大的监狱，也是唯一一家明确制定政策不配合移民与海关执法局的监狱。

The reason this matters is that sheriff Witt oversees the largest jail in the state and the only one that has a clear cut policy saying that they will not cooperate with ICE.

因此，如果州内有谁目前能凭借其职权，以政策方式为政府带来重大成果——可以说是一份‘战利品’，让政府在此次移民打击行动中体面收场，那这个人就是威特治安官。

So if there's one person in the state currently who could, as a matter of policy under her authority, you know, kinda give the administration a big win, a trophy, so to speak, to, you know, walk away from this immigration crackdown, it's sheriff wit.

这座监狱的情况是怎样的？

And what's the story of this jail?

这座监狱似乎正是汤姆·霍曼非常关注的，它与移民执法没有任何关联。

This jail that it sounds like Tom Homan is very focused on and its nonrelationship to immigration enforcement.

是的

Yeah.

这座监狱有着一个非常有趣的故事，它深刻反映了美国庇护运动的总体发展历程。

This jail has a really interesting story that really dovetails the broader journey of the sanctuary movement in The United States.

如果你回溯一下，回到奥巴马时代，亨内平县监狱当时有一项政策，允许移民与海关执法局（ICE）在设施内设立一个极小的办公室。

So, you know, if you rewind the tape a little bit and go back to the Obama years, the Hennepin County Jail had a policy where they actually allowed ICE agents to keep a tiny little office in the facility.

那地方小得就像一个扫帚柜。

It was like the equivalent of a broom closet.

当时的监狱长允许ICE特工对入狱的移民进行面谈，以评估他们是否符合遣返条件，并确定ICE是否要在他们不再被州政府羁押的那一刻立即带走他们。

And what the sheriff here at the time did was he allowed agents to interview immigrants who were booked into the jail to assess whether or not they were deportable and to figure out whether or not ICE wanted to grab them the moment that they were no longer gonna be in state custody.

这真的很引人入胜。

That's really fascinating.

这简直配合得天衣无缝。

That that's so hand in glove.

这是一种深层次的协调。

That's a deep level of coordination.

没错。

That's right.

明尼苏达州的治安官是民选官员，因此他们必须参选并回应选民对这些问题的感受和想法。

And sheriffs in Minnesota are elected officials, so they have to run for office and be responsive to what the electorate is feeling and thinking about these issues.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在2018年的选举中，这位任职超过十年的治安官以微弱劣势落选。

And in the twenty eighteen election, the sheriff who had been in office for over a decade lost his race by a tiny margin.

而击败他的人在竞选中主打的议题之一就是终止与ICE的合作。

And one of the issues that the guy who beat him campaigned on was rescinding cooperation with ICE.

当时，人们因特朗普政府推行的家庭分离政策而义愤填膺，移民问题已成为一个极具分裂性和党派色彩的议题。

So we were in a moment where people were outraged by the family separation policy that the Trump administration had been pursuing, and immigration had become both a very divisive and a very partisan issue.

因此，一位新治安官在这个移民问题高度紧张的政治时刻上任，在数月内逐步终止了与ICE的合作：先是将他们逐出监狱，最终甚至不再通知ICE哪些移民被收押，也不再告知ICE哪些人即将获释。

So you have a new sheriff who comes into office at this fraught political time over immigration and over a period of months wound down cooperation with ICE initially by kicking them out of the jail and eventually by not notifying them when immigrants who were subject to deportation were booked or informing ICE when individuals were going to be due for release.

所以，ICE连那个壁橱办公室都没了，基本上是这样。

So no more broom closet for ICE, basically.

没错。

Exactly.

他们被赶出去了。

They were out.

然而，我认为重要的是要记住，当你查看州监狱系统时，与ICE的合作仍然相当广泛，因为根据法律和政策，他们始终会在服重罪的囚犯即将释放时通知ICE。

However, I think it's important to remember that there was still a significant amount of cooperation with ICE when you looked at the state prison system, which as a matter of both statute and policy, they always notify ICE when an individual who is serving time on a serious charge is gonna be released.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这些人员会以一种非常务实且合作的方式移交给ICE。

And those individuals are handed over to ICE in a very kind of pragmatic and cooperative style.

你只需打电话给ICE特工，告诉他们早上九点到某个监狱来，我们这里有个从我们监管下移交的人。

You just call up the ICE agent, let them know, be here at such and such prison at nine in the morning, and here's your guy from our custody to yours.

嗯。

Mhmm.

至于州内其他拘留所，情况就复杂一些了。

When it comes to other jails in the state, it's been a little trickier.

我认为，不同 sheriff 对与 ICE 合作所投入的努力和时间各不相同。

I think it varies sheriff to sheriff just how much effort and time they wanna put into cooperating with ICE.

在过去，这个问题对本州的各县来说在法律上一直颇具挑战性。

And in the past, this issue has been legally challenging for counties in the state.

至少在几个司法管辖区出现了诉讼，法院裁定地方监狱在应 ICE 要求扣押人员的时间上超出了法定权限，随后向移民支付了赔偿。

There's been lawsuits in at least a couple of jurisdictions that resulted in payouts to immigrants after the courts found that local jails had exceeded their authority in detaining people at ISIS request longer than they legally had permission to do so.

对。

Right.

哈迈德曾谈到过这种现象。

Hamed had talked about this phenomenon.

最终，监狱以及这些监狱所在的社区不得不承担这些法律诉讼的财务负担，这成了他们不愿配合的真正障碍。

It ends up being the case that the jails and the communities where these jails are located are on the hook financially for those legal challenges, becomes a real disincentive to play ball.

没错。

That's right.

但我觉得，你在这里看到的是不同 sheriff 的混合情况，你知道的，在郊区县和农村县。

But I think what you have is a mix of sheriffs here, you know, in suburban counties, in rural counties.

我会说，大多数 sheriff 都会以某种方式与 ICE 合作。

I would say, you know, most sheriffs cooperate with ICE to some degree.

唯一的例外是亨内平县，到目前为止，他们坚持表示无意以任何方式与 ICE 合作。

The one exception continues to be Hennepin County, which up to this point maintains that they do not intend to work with ICE in any way, shape, or form.

我们会谈谈这位亨内平县 sheriff 目前所处的立场。

We'll talk about the position that this Hennepin County sheriff is now in.

她正面临联邦政府——以汤姆·霍曼为代表——施加的压力，对方说：我们只提出这一个要求。

She's got the federal government in the form of Tom Homan bearing down on her and saying, we're asking this one thing.

我不得不想象，某种程度上，他们让她觉得自己阻碍了 ICE 和边境巡逻队降低明尼阿波利斯的拘押人数，因为她站在那里说：我不会给你们想要的这个东西。

And I have to imagine in a sense, they're making her feel like she stands in the way of ICE and border patrol drawing down their numbers in Minneapolis because she's standing there and saying, I won't give you this thing you want.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实很有趣，因为特朗普政府的宣传口径一直猛烈攻击州长蒂姆·沃尔兹和明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗莱。

It's really interesting because in the messaging from the Trump administration, you know, they've gone really hard after governor Tim Walls, after Minneapolis mayor Jacob Fry.

但他们两人都基本表示：州长方面，我们已经就监狱系统与 ICE 合作；而市长对监狱没有管辖权。

But both of them have essentially said, we either already cooperate with ICE as it pertains to the governor and the prison system, and the mayor has no oversight over jails.

所以我认为，大家都开始把目光转向德安娜·威特这位 sheriff，觉得如果真有谁可能做出实质性的举动来安抚特朗普政府，那这个人就是德安娜。

So I think everybody is starting to look at Dwana Witt, the sheriff, and say, if there's one person who could, know, make a real substantive move that might appease the Trump administration, it's Duana.

没错。

Right.

但问题是，她需要赢得选举，并对选民负责。

The problem though is, you know, here is somebody who needs to be elected and be responsive to her constituents.

达瓦娜·威特是在乔治·弗洛伊德事件之后当选的，当时明尼阿波利斯市和县的政治氛围明显左倾。

Dawanna Witt got elected in the aftermath of the George Floyd era, you know, where the politics in Minneapolis and the county, you know, really veered to the left.

我认为她在政治理念上本质上是一位中间派。

And she's somebody who I think is at heart a centrist in her political philosophy.

我认为她是一个务实的人。

She's somebody who I think is a pragmatist.

但她顺应了乔治·弗洛伊德遇害后民众愤怒的浪潮，而那时人们对特朗普政府极为不满，移民权利团体也拥有很大的政治影响力。

But she sort of rode the wave of anger that followed the killing of George Floyd during a time when people were really upset at the Trump administration where immigrant right groups had a lot of political power.

因此，如果她做出任何被选民视为向特朗普政府屈服、实质上为移民敞开监狱大门的举动，我们有理由相信，这在当前对她而言将是政治上的重大打击。

So if she were to make a move that her constituents would see as her having capitulated to the Trump administration and essentially flinging the doors to the jail open to eyes, you would assume that would be politically damaging for her in this moment.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，她对计划做什么说了什么？

So what has she said about what she plans to do?

她公开说得很少。

She has said very little publicly.

她一直对过去几周移民官员的行事方式提出批评。

She's been very critical of the way immigration agents have conducted business over the past few weeks.

你知道，他们在这里杀死了两名美国公民。

You know, they've killed two American citizens here.

这些移民行动非常混乱且具有破坏性。

These immigration rates have been very chaotic and disruptive.

但杜瓦娜·伍德迄今为止并未真正公开介入关于监狱和监禁的这场讨论。

But Duwana Wood so far has not really inserted herself publicly, at least, into this conversation about jails and prisons.

我一直在试图采访她，但她还没有准备好出来回应，也未表明她是否愿意在对峙中成为那个做出大胆举动的人。

I've been trying to interview her, but she hasn't really been ready to come out and engage and, you know, say whether or not she's willing to, you know, be the one who makes a bold move as part of the standoff.

她发布的与汤姆·霍曼会面的摘要非常简短，而且有些模糊。

The readout she put out about her meeting with Tom Homan was very short and, you know, somewhat vague.

她称他们的对话是坦诚且富有建设性的，但她丝毫没有暗示她正在重新考虑监狱的政策，或者正在探讨任何可能的协议。

She called their conversation candid and constructive, but she did not indicate in any way, shape, or form that she's starting to revisit her policy at the jail or that there could be a deal on the table that she's exploring.

为了更好地理解，因为你主要谈论的是这位警长所处的政治困境。

Just to understand, because you're mostly talking about the political predicament that this sheriff is in.

从法律上讲，即使她想这么做，惠特警长能否与联邦政府合作并开放监狱？

Legally, even if she wanted to, could sheriff Whitt cooperate with the federal government and open up the jail?

据我了解，这里实际上有两件相互重叠的事情正在发生。

So it's my understanding that there's kinda two overlapping things happening here.

一方面，在县一级，政策由同样经选举产生的县委员会制定，他们有一项关于与移民局合作的分离条例，但该条例主要涉及一些简单的问题，比如县属财产和停车场不得被移民局用于部署行动。

One is at the county level, policy is set by county commissioners who are also elected officials, and they have a separation ordinance as it pertains to ICE cooperation, but it, you know, addresses kinda simple issues such as the fact that county property and parking lots can't be used by ICE agents to stage their operations.

是的。

Mhmm.

至于监狱，据我所知，惠特警长可以单方面决定改变政策。

When it comes to the jail, my understanding is that sheriff Witt could unilaterally decide to change the policy.

例如，她可以开始向ICE提供信息，或与当地ICE特工建立沟通渠道，并开始关注他们关于某人何时获释的信息请求。

For instance, to start providing information to ICE or to open up a line of communication between her office and the local ICE agents and to start heeding their requests for information about when somebody's going to be released.

你知道，她理论上也可以决定再次向ICE特工开放监狱，允许他们轻松进入。

You know, she could theoretically also decide to once again open the jail to ICE agents and to allow them kind of easy access.

据我所知，这属于她的职权范围。

It is, as I understand it, within her purview.

但从政治上讲，我认为对于一位可能谋求连任的 sheriff 来说，这将是一个非常困难且可能造成损害的举动。

But politically, I think it'd be a really difficult and conceivably damaging move for a sheriff who I think intends to run for reelection.

对。

Right.

问题是，如果她允许ICE边境巡逻队开始与监狱协调，究竟目的是什么？

And the question would be, if she were to let ICE border patrol start coordinating with the jail, to what end exactly?

因为

Because

在

at the end of

在一天结束时，这些地方官员在明尼阿波利斯，或者实际上在全国任何地方，有什么保证能让他们相信，如果他们满足汤姆·霍曼和政府的要求，敞开监狱大门，让ICE重新进入角落的储物间，协调释放、逮捕和驱逐，那么ICE和边境巡逻队就会离开这座城市，或者他们的行动会重新变得不那么具有对抗性？

the day, what kind of assurances do any of these local officials have in Minneapolis or really anywhere in the country that if they meet Tom Homan's demands and the administration's demands, if they fling open the doors to this jail, if they let ICE back into a broom closet in the corner and coordinate release and then arrest and deportation, that then ICE and border patrol agents would start to leave the city or that their operations would go back to being less confrontational?

我的意思是，如果你做出这样的姿态，比如向他们开放亨内平县监狱，也完全不能保证这些问题就会就此消失。

I mean, there's absolutely no guarantee that if you make this gesture, if you were to open Hennepin County Jail to them, that this would all go away.

你知道，在州内民选官员与特朗普政府之间，目前对这些问题的信任几乎为零。

You know, it's hard to overstate how little trust exists currently between elected officials in the state and the Trump administration on these issues.

这是一个人们感到被联邦政府围攻的州。

This is a state where people feel besieged by the federal government.

他们觉得这项行动严重损害了人们的生计。

They feel that this operation is really, really doing serious damage to people's livelihoods.

它已经导致了两起死亡事件，并且严重破坏了地方与联邦执法机构之间长期建立的关系。

It's resulted in two deaths already, and it's really strained long standing relationships between local and federal law enforcement agencies.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但归根结底，这还是关乎这些政策的原则问题。

But it also, you know, boils down to the principle about these policies.

一些警察部门和亨内平县治安官办公室决定不参与移民事务，是因为他们认为这会削弱与所服务社区之间的信任。

The reason some police departments and the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office have decided they don't wanna be involved in immigration stuff is because they feel it erodes trust with the community they serve.

因此，如果他们在这一问题上做出重大让步，本质上就是放弃了一项原则，而且他们这样做并不能保证会减少特朗普政府对他们的压力，甚至无法减少街头上的移民执法行动。

So if they were to make a big concession on this, they would be essentially capitulating on a matter of principle, and they would be doing so with no guarantee that this would subject them to less pressure from the Trump administration or even less immigration enforcement out in the streets.

好的，欧内斯特·奥，非常感谢您。

Well, Ernest O, thank you very much.

我们非常感激。

We appreciate it.

谢谢你，迈克尔。

Thank you, Michael.

上周末，一名联邦法官下令特朗普政府释放一名五岁男孩及其父亲，几周前他们在明尼阿波利斯郊区被拘留，此事引发了全国范围的愤怒。

Over the weekend, a federal judge ordered the Trump administration to release a five year old boy and his father whose detention in suburban Minneapolis a few weeks ago had spurred nationwide outrage.

审理此案的法官称，这名男孩被拘留时戴着蜘蛛侠背包和 oversized 的蓝色厚毛绒冬帽，这种拘留是违宪的，且构成‘残忍的对待’。

The judge in the case called the detention of the boy, who was wearing a Spider Man backpack and an oversized fluffy blue winter hat when he was captured, unconstitutional, and, quote, the imposition of cruelty.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

以下是您需要了解的关于圣母大学的其他信息。

Here's what else you need to Notre Dame.

作为一个对全国共和党不利的征兆，一位民主党人在德克萨斯州的一场重要特别选举中 decisive 获胜，而该选区在一年多前曾以超过17个百分点的优势支持特朗普总统。

In an ominous sign for national Republicans, a Democrat decisively won a major special election in Texas over the weekend, carrying a district that president Trump won by more than 17 points a little over a year ago.

这位民主党候选人泰勒·罗梅特是一名本地工会领袖，也是首次参选，他在沃斯堡附近一个重要的州参议院席位选举中大胜共和党候选人李·翁加斯。

The Democrat, Taylor Romet, a local union leader and first time candidate, trounced the Republican in the race, conservative activist Lee Womgans, in an election for a major state senate seat around the city of Fort Worth.

尽管特朗普总统支持了对手，罗梅特仍取得胜利，这进一步增强了民主党人的信心，认为他们在今年秋天夺回众议院控制权的机会依然很高。

Rahmet's victory came even after President Trump endorsed his and it reinforced Democrats' growing confidence that their chances of winning back control of the House this fall remain high.

最新公布的与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦相关的政府文件——迄今为止最大规模的一次公开——揭示了他与美国数位最富有、最有权势男性之间的关系。

And the latest government release of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, the single largest release to date, sheds new light on his relationship with several of the country's richest and most powerful men.

这些邮件显示，爱泼斯坦曾与埃隆·马斯克多次通信，并邀请马斯克前往他在维尔京群岛的庄园。

The emails show that Epstein exchanged multiple messages with Elon Musk and had invited Musk to his compound in the Virgin Islands.

另一封由爱泼斯坦写给自己的邮件声称，他曾帮助比尔·盖茨发生婚外性行为，但盖茨否认了这一说法。

Another email, written by Epstein to himself, claimed that Epstein had helped Bill Gates have extramarital sex, a claim Gates denies.

多封邮件显示，爱泼斯坦曾将纽约巨人队老板史蒂夫·蒂施与多名女性牵线搭桥，并用粗俗的言辞描述这些女性。

Several emails show that Epstein connected the owner of the New York Giants, Steve Tisch, with several women, whom Epstein described in vulgar terms.

最后，邮件显示，现任商务部长霍华德·卢特尼克曾计划于2012年访问 Epstein 的岛屿，尽管他此前声称自己早在七年前就已与 Epstein 切断所有联系。

Finally, emails show that Howard Lutnick, now Commerce Secretary, planned a visit to Epstein's island in 2012 despite Lutnick previously claiming that he had severed all ties with Epstein seven years earlier.

本期节目由安娜·福利、亚历克斯·斯特恩、里基·内韦茨基和穆吉·扎迪制作。

Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley, Alex Stern, Ricky Nevetsky, and Mooj Zaidi.

本节目由迈克尔·贝努瓦和莉兹·奥布伦编辑，音乐由罗哈尼·米斯托、阿莉西亚·拜图普和丹·鲍威尔创作，由克里斯·伍德负责技术制作。

It was edited by Michael Benoit and Liz O'Balen, contains music by Rohani Misto, Alicia Baitup, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。

That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·比尔巴腊。

I'm Michael Bilbara.

明天见。

See you tomorrow.