我们能逆转衰老吗？

批评对我来说就像一股强大的动力，像是激发创作的灵感提示。

Criticism has been a huge fuel for me, like a creative writing prompt.

如果你还没听出来，那就是泰勒·斯威夫特，她已经很久没做过这样的采访了。

If you couldn't tell, that is Taylor Swift who hasn't sat for an interview like this in a long time.

我是约翰·卡拉蒙尼卡，是《纽约时报》‘30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者’项目背后的评论人之一。

I'm John Karamonika, one of the critics behind The New York Times' 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters project.

我们采访了名单上的一些词曲作者，这些对话可不一般。

We interviewed some of the songwriters on our list, and these are not ordinary conversations.

免费观看所有视频采访，了解更多关于‘30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者’项目的完整内容，请访问 nytimes.com/30greatest 或使用我们的应用程序。

Watch all the video interviews for free and check out the entire 30 greatest living American songwriters project at nytimes.com/30greatest or in the app.

来自《纽约时报》，我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯，这里是周日版的《每日新闻》。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily on Sunday.

自古以来，人类就一直在寻找青春之泉。

Since the beginning of time, humans have quested for the fountain of youth.

如今，人们正投入数千亿美元，用于各种抗衰老产品、疗法和治疗手段。

And these days, people are pouring billions and billions of dollars into products and therapies and treatments that are intended to reverse aging.

现在，科学家们可能比以往任何时候都更接近于能够让人重返青春的疗法了。

And now, scientists may have gotten closer than ever before to treatments that could restore our youth.

今天，我跟我的同事苏·多米努斯聊了聊，她采访了一些研究人员，了解他们的研究进展，以及这些研究的资金来源。

Today, I talked with my colleague, Dominus, who spoke with some of those scientists about their research and where the money that is funding it is coming from.

今天是五月十七号，星期天。

It's Sunday, May 17.

苏·多米努斯，欢迎来到《每日新闻》。

Sue Dominus, welcome to The Daily.

非常感谢你邀请我来。

Thank you so much for having me.

苏，你一直报道文化与科学的交叉领域。

So, Sue, you cover the intersection of culture and science.

最近，你特别关注一群非常执着的人，他们一心想要活得更久。

And recently, you have been focused on a very particular pursuit by a very particular group of people who are really interested in living longer.

我想先从一个最基本的问题开始：什么是长寿科学？

So I wanna start with something very basic, which is what is longevity science?

长寿科学可以从很多不同的角度来理解。

So longevity science can be described in a bunch of different ways.

当然，有些人研究肽类物质，卖保健品，提倡健康干预，但归根结底，长寿科学就是研究如何活得更久、如何延缓衰老。

I mean, there obviously are people who are researching peptides and who are selling supplements and who are urging health interventions, but it's basically the science of how we can live longer and how we can slow aging.

我特别关注的那部分研究，叫做细胞再生。

And the research that I have become particularly interested in is something known as cellular rejuvenation.

你能解释一下这是什么意思吗？

And just explain what that is.

细胞再生就是说，我们可以让一个已经老化的细胞，重新恢复到年轻时的状态。

So cellular rejuvenation is basically this idea that we can take a cell that has aged and make it function like a younger version

了

of

它自己。

itself.

我们之所以相信这能做到，是因为每次婴儿出生时，都会发生一件关键的事。

And one of the reasons why we believe this can be made to happen is because of something that happens every single time a baby is born.

那是什么呢？

And what is that?

我来问你个问题。

Well, let me ask you a question.

为什么婴儿出生的时候是年轻的？

Why is a baby born young?

我觉得这像是个陷阱。

I feel like this is a trick.

我知道。

I know.

听起来挺直观的，但其实不是这样。

It seems intuitive, but it's actually not.

虽然卵子和精子相对受到保护，不容易老化，但比如精子，确实会携带它来源的男性身体的老化痕迹。

Because although eggs and sperm are relatively protected from aging, a sperm cell, for example, does still bear the signs of aging that it inherited from the man who created it.

你可以想象，如果每个胚胎都继承这些老化迹象，那老化会不断累积，最终整个物种都会灭绝。

And you can imagine that if that was true for every embryo that formed, that it inherited signs of aging, that eventually that aging would accumulate and accumulate, and the species would go extinct.

所以研究发现，精子和卵子结合后不久，胚胎会通过一个很神奇的过程，把从父母那里继承来的衰老标记清除掉。

So it's actually been found that shortly after a sperm joins with an egg, there is this fascinating process by which the embryo essentially sheds the markers of aging that it inherited.

但胚胎并不是在形成那一瞬间就达到最年轻的状态。

And it is not at its youngest point at the second that that, you know, embryo has formed or that zygote has formed.

这个过程需要一点时间，衰老标记是逐渐被清除的。

It actually takes a little while, and it sheds aging over period of time.

等清除完毕，它才真正回到衰老的起点。

And then it starts at what's considered ground zero for aging.

你是说，胚胎在某种程度上是逆着年龄在变年轻？

You're saying basically an embryo ages backwards in a way?

只是暂时如此。

For a moment.

对。

Yes.

然后它才开始重新积累衰老的迹象。

And then it starts to acquire signs of aging.

所以科学家们正试图利用这一过程，让它对人类健康产生实际帮助。

And so what scientists are trying to do is harness that process in a way that can be useful for human health.

明白了。

Okay.

他们想重现受精后胚胎短暂经历的那套机制。

So they're trying to replicate what happens briefly when an egg is inseminated.

这方面科学进展到什么程度了？

How far has science come on in this front?

其实已经走得挺远了。

Actually, pretty far.

2006年，京都大学的山中伸弥发现，只要把胚胎里高度活跃的那些强效基因导入小鼠尾巴的衰老皮肤细胞，就能让这些细胞几乎倒退回胚胎状态。

In 2006, a researcher named Shinya Yamanaka at the University of Kyoto realized that by applying these unbelievably powerful genes that are highly expressed in embryos to the aged skin cells of a mouse's tail, he was able to revert those skin cells basically back to their embryonic form.

这听起来太不可思议了。

That sounds incredible.

这个发现太重要了，因此他因此获得了诺贝尔奖。

It was a big enough deal that he won the Nobel Prize for it.

啊，明白了。

Ah, okay.

原来如此。

Well, there you go.

但当时人们并不确定这项发现是否真能应用于人类健康。

But people weren't sure whether this discovery would ever have any application for human health Right.

因为他们知道，这些基因也和细胞的疯狂分裂有关。

Because they knew that these genes were also associated with explosive cell division.

也就是说，癌症。

In other words, cancer.

事实上，有一些西班牙的研究人员想试试，如果把山中因子用在小鼠身上会怎样。

And in fact, some researchers in Spain decided to see what would happen if they applied the Yamanaka factors to the body of a mouse.

结果小鼠的细胞真的回到了胚胎发育阶段——那种新鲜、年轻、美好的状态，但同时细胞也失去了特化功能。

And what happened was that the cells of the mouse reverted back to this embryonic stage of development, which is fresh and young and wonderful, but the cells also became unspecialized.

你

What do you

未分化是什么意思？

mean by unspecialized?

简单来说，它们忘了该怎么

Basically, they forgot how to

干活了。

do their jobs.

它们不再充当心脏细胞或皮肤细胞，而是退回到胚胎状态，最终长成了被称为畸胎瘤的可怕肿瘤。这些肿瘤里混杂着各种组织，比如皮肤、毛发和牙齿，器官功能也彻底崩溃了。

They stopped being a heart cell or a skin cell, and they reverted back to embryonic form and eventually developed into these monstrous tumors called teratomas that are like these bits of various tissues, skin, and hair, and teeth, and their organ function fell apart.

所以这些小鼠都死了。

So it was fatal for these mice.

好的。

Okay.

所以很明显，尽管在这个领域已经因为相关进展获得了诺贝尔奖，但这并不是板上钉钉的事。

So clearly, despite the fact that there has been a Nobel Prize awarded in this arena for progress, this is not a slam dunk.

我们目前未必已经站在了让细胞恢复年轻的门槛上。

We are not at the precipice necessarily at this moment of rejuvenating cells.

2006年的时候，我们确实能让细胞恢复年轻，但那种方法对人类没什么实际用处。

Well, in 2006, certainly, we could rejuvenate cells, but not in a way that was going to be helpful for humans.

大家觉得这太危险了，容易致癌，太混乱，大概也没啥用。

People just thought too dangerous, too cancerous, too messy, probably not useful.

咱们还是聊点别的吧，关于延长寿命的话题。

Let's move on to other things when it comes to longevity.

直到2016年，索尔克研究所的一位科学家胡安·卡洛斯·伊兹皮苏阿·贝尔蒙特做出了突破性的研究。

Until a scientist at the Salk Institute named Juan Carlos Ipsizuwa Belmonte did some remarkable research in 2016.

你来说说他吧。

And tell us about him.

他这个人特别有意思。

He's a fascinating guy.

他在西班牙长大，家境非常贫寒，小时候靠摘水果养家，还短暂当过职业足球运动员。

He grew up in real poverty in Spain picking fruit to support his family, was briefly a professional soccer player in Spain.

天哪，真厉害。

Oh, wow.

后来他上了学，天生对科学有天赋，特别对再生现象着迷。

And then ended up in school and and had a natural talent for science and was very interested in regeneration.

他特别关注一种蝾螈，如果你把它尾巴切掉，包括尾巴里那段脊髓，它都能重新长出来。

He was very interested in a particular salamander that can regenerate its tail, for example, if you cut it off, including the part of the spine that's in the tail.

他一直想找到方法让器官再生或修复，好让它们更适合移植。

And he was interested in ways of creating organs or healing organs so that they could be in better shape for transplant.

这就是他的背景。

That was his background.

他还对山中因子特别感兴趣，就是我们之前提到的那些强效基因，山中伸弥曾用它们让小鼠尾巴的衰老皮肤细胞重新变年轻。

And he was very interested in these Yamanaka factors, those powerful genes we talked about earlier that Yamanaka used to rejuvenate the older skin cells of a mouse's tail.

所以他想，好吧。

So he thought, okay.

显然，我们不能用那种会让特化细胞倒退回干细胞或类干细胞状态的方式，毕竟谁也不想身体里长出那种可怕的肿瘤。

Well, clearly, we don't wanna apply them in a way that's going to revert our specialized cells back into being stem cells or stem cell like cells, mainly because we don't want those nightmare tumors showing up in our bodies.

我们不希望细胞忘了自己该做什么。

We don't want the cells to forget how to do their jobs.

我们的器官就会停止工作。

Our organs would cease to function.

对。

Mhmm.

所以他想，如果只使用一点点山中因子会怎么样？

So he thought, what if we just applied a little bit of the Yamanaka factors?

也就是说，我们不用把细胞完全退回到最原始的状态，也许可以让它恢复到青春鼎盛的青少年阶段。

You know, maybe we could take the cell not all the way back to its earliest stage, but maybe we could take it back to being like a teenager in its prime somewhere along the way.

所以他其实是在调整这个配方。

So he's, like, tweaking the formula here, basically.

调整了配方，可以说是把强度调低了。

Tweaked the formula and kinda turned down the volume, you could say.

他把山中因子用在了一组经过基因改造的小鼠身上，这些小鼠患有一种导致它们极速衰老的疾病。

And he applied the Yamanaka factors to mice that had been genetically tweaked to suffer from a disease that made them age very, very quickly.

结果他发现，这些小鼠的寿命得到了显著延长。

And he found that he was able to extend their lives significantly.

但你其实也能从这些小鼠身上看出来。

But also, I mean, you could see it in the mice.

它们看起来更年轻了。

They looked younger.

毛发上的灰毛也变少了。

They had less gray in their fur.

肌肉力量更强了。

Their muscles were stronger.

伤口愈合得更快，整体状态更活跃，更有活力。

They healed more quickly from wounds, and they were kind of rejuvenated and overall friskier.

据说，实验室的技术人员还以为那些老老鼠被换成了年轻的老鼠。

And, you know, the story goes that the lab technicians thought the old mice had been replaced by younger mice.

这听起来非常有希望。

That sounds very promising.

那之后又发生了什么？

So then what happens from there?

所以现在大家都在争分夺秒，想找到一种安全用于人类的方法。

So then the race is on to try to figure out how to use it in a way that is safe for humans.

我认为，这个领域大多数人都认为，下一个重大突破会来自一位非常知名但也颇具争议的抗衰老研究者——大卫·辛克莱。

And I think most people in the field would agree that the next big breakthrough in the field comes from a very well known longevity researcher who's also somewhat controversial named David Sinclair.

他到底怎么了？为什么这么有争议？

What's his deal, why is he so controversial?

辛克莱是哈佛医学院的遗传学教授，他的许多同事都同意，他在抗衰老领域做出了非常重要的研究。

So Sinclair is a professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School, and he, many of his colleagues would agree, has done really important research in the field of longevity.

他取得过关键性的突破。

He's had very important breakthroughs.

但正如我提到的，他也有些争议，因为他对这项研究太过热情，有时让同行担心他可能夸大了当前科学的实际前景。

But he's also somewhat controversial, as I mentioned, because he's so enthusiastic about this research that at times his peers fear that he has maybe oversold the promise of where the science is right now.

他是最重要的抗衰老研究机构的联合创始人之一，但后来因为他在社交媒体上转发了一家他参与的生物技术公司发布的新闻稿，声称科学已经证明某种补充剂能让狗逆龄，被要求退出了该机构的管理。

He is one of the important cofounders of the most important academy of longevity researchers, but he was also asked to step down from running it after he'd circulated on social media a press release from one of his biotechs that claimed that science had proven that there was a supplement that would reverse aging in dogs.

他的同行们觉得，这些研究根本支撑不了这样的说法。

And, you know, his peers did not feel that the research supported that.

他还写了一本畅销书，特别有意思，里面包含了大量高深的科学内容。

And he wrote a bestselling book that is super fascinating and holds a lot of really high level science in it.

书名叫《寿命》：我们为什么会衰老，以及为什么我们不必衰老。

It's called Lifespan, why we age and why we don't have to.

这个副标题所承诺的东西，让他的同行们多少有点不安。

And, you know, that subhead contains the kind of promise that makes his peers a little bit uncomfortable.

更不寻常的是，像辛克莱这样的哈佛科学家，竟然和女友一起创办了一个主打非主流疗法、比如能量疗愈的健康平台。

It's also unusual, let's say, for a Harvard scientist to cofound as Sinclair did with his girlfriend, a kind of wellness platform that relies on, let's say, non mainstream practices like energy healing.

关于他大力推崇的一种叫白藜芦醇的化合物，至今仍有大量争议，辛克莱坚持认为研究显示它能延缓衰老。

There's still also a lot of discussion about a compound that he was a huge advocate of known as resveratrol that Sinclair maintains research shows can slow aging.

但其他研究人员尝试重复实验时，都没能成功。

But other people who tried to replicate the science did not meet success.

开发白藜芦醇的那家生物科技公司，后来被制药巨头葛兰素史克以天价收购了。

And that biotech behind resveratrol was sold to GlaxoSmithKline, which is, you know, a major pharmaceutical company for a small fortune.

但最终，他们还是放弃了继续开发这种物质。

But they eventually stepped away from pursuing resveratrol.

所以他做出了不少重要的科学突破。

So he's made a lot of important scientific breakthroughs.

但他也做了一些让同行们感到不安的决定，这么说吧。

He's also made some choices that many of his colleagues are uncomfortable with, let's say.

明白了。

Okay.

所以他可能有点过于激进，但在这个领域确实是个创新者。

So he's got a reputation for maybe getting over his skis a little bit, but also an innovator in this field.

没错。

Correct.

最近，他在细胞再生领域取得了一项重大突破，也因此获得了大量认可。

And recently, he's received a lot of recognition for a big break he had in the field of cellular rejuvenation.

他有个想法，和胡安·卡洛斯·伊兹皮亚·贝尔蒙特有点类似，就是：我们能不能找到办法，降低这些山中因子的活性？

He had sort of a similar idea to the one that Juan Carlos Ipsuya Belmonte had, which was, can we find a way to tone down the power of these Yamanaka factors?

他的创新点在于提出：要是我们干脆去掉其中一个因子呢？

And his innovation was to say, well, what if we just dropped one of those factors?

我们就用其中三个，避开那个和癌症风险关联最强的。

Let's only use three of them and not use the one that's most associated with cancer risk.

假如我们把这三个因子用在小鼠受损的眼细胞上，结果他成功恢复了那些被这项细胞再生技术弄瞎的小鼠的视力，而且这些小鼠体内根本没有出现癌变。

And what if we applied those three to, let's say, the damaged eye cells of mice, and what he was able to do was restore the vision of mice whom they'd blinded using this technology of cellular rejuvenation, and they did not find cancer growth in these mice.

这真是一个重大突破。

And it was a breakthrough.

这说明我们有可能利用这类技术或疗法的力量，同时避免相应的风险。

And it suggested that we can use the power of this kind of technology or medicine without necessarily incurring the risk.

但显而易见，小鼠实验和人体实验是两回事。

But obviously, of course, we know that mice studies are not human studies.

那么，这项科学成果如何应用到人类身上呢？

So how is the science applicable to what these folks are trying to do with people?

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great point.

小鼠实验的结果，往往并不能直接推广到人身上。

Mice trials often don't translate into humans.

于是他们进一步推进，开始在猴子身上测试同样的方法。

So they went to the next level, which was they tested the same process in monkeys.

样本量很小，但研究团队认为，这又多了一层证据，表明这项技术有望安全地实现。

Very small study, very small numbers, but they were satisfied that that was one more level of proof that this could be done safely, hopefully.

在这些小型猴子实验结束后，辛克莱的生物科技公司Life Biosciences获得了FDA批准，启动了针对人类的安全性试验，旨在利用细胞再生技术治疗患有青光眼和另一种名为黄斑变性的疾病的失明患者。

So after these studies, which were very small, are done in monkeys, Sinclair's biotech, which is called Life Biosciences, is able to get FDA approval to start a safety trial in humans to use the cellular rejuvenation to try to reverse blindness in humans who are suffering from glaucoma and another illness known as nion.

显然，这个人走在了最前沿。

So clearly, this man is at the forefront.

他确实是最早把这项科学推进到人体试验阶段的人。

He's definitely at the head of the pack in getting this science into actual human trials.

至于他能不能长期保持领先，我不确定，因为这个领域关注度很高，很多其他生物科技公司也在投入巨资，拼命追赶。

Whether that will be true for long, I don't know because there's a lot of interest in this field, and there is a lot of money being thrown at lot a of other biotechs who are doing everything they can to catch up.

我们会在广告后详细聊聊这些研究的资助方和相关进展。

And we are going to talk about all of that and who is funding this research after the break.

广告后马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是罗宾，我很兴奋地打开我的跨玩应用。

I'm Robin, and I am excited to open my Crossplay app.

我向我的《纽约时报》同事约翰发起挑战。

I'm challenging John, my colleague at The New York Times.

罗宾出了单词‘grunge’，开头的G值四分。

Robin played the word grunge, has a g, which is four points.

她还触发了三倍单词分奖励。

She got that triple word multiplier.

我要把‘facts’改成‘faxes’，拿30分。

I'm going to take facts and make it faxes for 30 points.

我打算再用一个两个字母的词，‘woah’能让我拿到23分。

I might just take another two letter word here with woah gets me at 23.

如果我算得没错，这下我又领先了。

I think this will put me back in the lead if my maths are mathing.

我更喜欢从策略角度出牌，看看怎么堵住对手拿高分。

I like to play it more from a strategic point of view and see where I can block the other player from scoring high.

我挺好胜的。

I'm pretty competitive.

赢朋友和同事挺有意思的，还能学到新词。

It's fun to beat friends and coworkers and also get to learn new words.

Crossplay，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。

Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times Games.

今天就免费下载吧。

Download it for free today.

他以为自己稳赢了，但我没那么确定。

I think he thinks he has us in the bag, but I'm not so sure.

所以，苏，很明显，很多人都希望活得更久、更健康。

So, Sue, obviously, a lot of people wanna live longer and healthier lives.

有很多不同的健康产业都在关注这个话题。

There are many different wellness industries devoted to this topic.

但说到长寿科学，究竟是谁在支持这些研究呢？

But when it comes to longevity science specifically, who is backing all of this research?

简短的回答是：亿万富翁。

The short answer is billionaires.

你知道吗，OpenAI的萨姆·阿尔特曼投资了大约两亿美元给一家叫Retro Biosciences的生物技术公司。

You know, Sam Altman of OpenAI has invested something like $200,000,000 in a biotech called Retro Biosciences.

科技风投大亨布莱恩·约翰逊把长寿科学搞成了某种观赏性运动。

The very wealthy Brian Johnson, who's a major tech VC, has made longevity science a kind of spectacle sport.

他甚至给自己注射了儿子的血浆，这只是他做过的一系列疯狂科学实验中的一个。

He's injected himself with the plasma of his son, which is just one of a few crazy kind of science capers he's undertaken.

还有PayPal的创始人彼得·蒂尔，他公开表示想把自己冷冻保存。

You have Peter Thiel, the billionaire who founded PayPal, talking about wanting to be cryogenically preserved.

甲骨文的联合创始人拉里·埃里森几乎要把他买下的拉奈岛改造成一个健康圣地。

You have Larry Ellison, another billionaire and cofounder of Oracle, almost turning the island of Lanai that he purchased into a wellness mecca.

还有史上规模最大的生物技术初创公司之一——Altos Labs，它的主要投资人之一就是杰夫·贝佐斯。

And then there is what is thought to be the single biggest biotech startup in history at its launch, which is Altos Labs, one of whose major investors is Jeff Bezos.

在你的报道过程中，你实际上去参观了这家实验室。

And as part of your reporting, you actually visited this lab.

你去那里，是想弄清楚些什么呢？

What were you hoping to find out?

我去Altos实验室的时候，主要是想了解他们到底在搞什么样的科研。

I was trying to get a sense when I visited Altos of where they were pursuing the science.

他们的目标是什么？

What was their hope?

他们的野心有多大？

How big was their ambition?

他们是真打算把寿命延长二十年，还是只是想全面提升大家的健康水平？

Are these people who were talking about we're gonna extend life by twenty years, or are we just hoping to improve health across the board?

他们有没有在寻找替代Yamanaka因子的方法？

Were they coming up with alternatives to the Yamanaka factors?

有没有其他方式来调控这些因子的活性？

Were they finding other ways of modifying their power?

这些就是我当时心里的一些疑问。

Those are some of the questions that I had.

对。

Mhmm.

所以我去了他们在圣地亚哥的实验室。

So I went to visit their lab in San Diego.

他们其实有好几个校区，但我去了那个位于一个很漂亮的生物技术园区里的。

They actually have several campuses, but I went to the one in this beautiful biotech park, basically.

我在那里见到了胡安·卡洛斯·伊普苏扎·贝蒙特。

And I was met there by Juan Carlos Ipsuza Belmonte.

贝蒙特，就是那位最早改造山中因子的西班牙科学家。

Belmonte, the Spanish scientist who first adapted the Yamanaka factors.

是的。

Yes.

他们成功把他和许多其他顶尖人才招揽过来，这种人才流动被形容为学术界向私营企业最大规模的迁移之一。

They were able to recruit him and so many others that their success in that way has been described as one of the single biggest academic migrations in a field to private industry.

据说，他们能办到这一点，是因为给首席研究员开出了百万美元级别的薪酬。

And they were able to do that reportedly by offering something like million dollar salaries to principal investigators.

他们为研究人员提供了巨额资源、充裕的时间和非常高的薪水。

People were being offered huge resources, lots of runway time, and very high salaries.

那你看到了什么？

So what did you see?

是的。

Yeah.

我看到一个明亮、阳光充足、非常整洁的实验室。

I saw this beautiful, sunny, bright, light lab.

我穿上白大褂，他们很热情地向我展示了他们如何利用技术开展快速且高度可预测的研究。

I put on a a lab coat, and they seemed to be interested in showing me all the ways that they were using technology to do fast and highly predictive research.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

很多用于人类健康研究的实验，

So a lot

都是在小鼠身上进行的。

of the research that's done for ultimately human health is conducted on mice.

但不幸的是，这些发现中的绝大多数都无法真正应用到人类身上。

And, unfortunately, the vast majority of those findings do not actually translate into human applications.

在小鼠身上有效的成果，未必在人体上也有效。

What works in a mouse does not always work in a human.

因此，Altos 公司正在尝试通过寻找动物模型的替代方案，来提升他们研究的预测准确性。

So Altos is trying to improve the predictive ability of whatever research it's conducting by finding alternatives to animal models.

他们给我展示了一种培养皿，里面有一些东西在滚动，看起来像几粒米。

So one of the things they showed me was a petri dish that had rolling around in it what looked like a few grains of rice.

但实际上，那些是微型的人体器官。

But in fact, they were like almost mini human organs.

我看到的是一些极其微小的人脑复制品，它们完全由干细胞培育而成，拥有与真实人脑几乎相同的细胞类型。

I was looking at very tiny, tiny replica of human brains that had been essentially grown from stem cells and had many of the kinds of cells in it that you would find in a human brain.

为了让你了解这些复制品有多逼真，如果你观察一个人类心脏类器官，它真的会跳动。

Just to give you a sense of how complete these kinds of replica are, if you were to look at an organoid of a human heart, it would actually beat.

他们可以更高效地操作和研究这些类器官，因为它们源自人类干细胞，所以几乎就是最贴近我们人体生物学的模型了。

So they can manipulate those and do research on them more efficiently because they're made from human stem cells, so they're not looking you know, it's it's it's as close to our biology as as they're gonna get.

他们还详细介绍了他们创建的一个虚拟细胞，这个系统需要海量的AI算力，却能让你在短时间内完成数百万次原本需要好几年才能做完的实验。

And, they also talked a lot about a virtual cell they had created, which requires huge amounts of AI but allows you to do millions of experiments that otherwise would take years.

他们可以随意设定‘如果A和B混合，再加入C，会发生什么’，然后高速地反复模拟，一遍又一遍。

And they can just sort of program in what if a mixed with b add c, what would happen, and do that basically over and over and over again at high speed.

你参观完这些创新成果之后，对这一切有什么感受？

So what did you make of all of this after you got this tour and saw all these innovations?

你只能感受到他们投入的巨大资源、惊人的创造力，以及所能调动的庞大支持体系。

You just get a sense of the vastness of the investment and the range of creativity that they're trying to apply and just the resources that they can use.

比如，他们正在尝试让人类肝脏恢复活力。

So for example, one of the things that they are doing is trying to rejuvenate human livers.

要做到这一点，必须让肝脏在实验过程中保持活性足够长的时间。

And in order to do that, you have to keep the liver viable long enough for the research to work.

据我所知，他们已经把肝脏的存活时间延长到了前所未有的程度，这不仅对细胞再生研究意义重大，也可能彻底改变肝移植的前景。

And so far as I understand it, they've been able to do that for a longer period of time than has been done before, which could have huge consequences for liver transplants apart from whatever they find out about cellular rejuvenation.

你有没有更清楚地了解到，他们最终想达成的更大目标是什么？

And did you get a sense about what they're hoping to accomplish a little bit more broadly?

除了肝脏之外，他们是不是还想通过这些研究让人活到300岁？他们跟你提过更长远的目标吗？

Like, beyond just the liver, are they trying to get people is all of this research to help people live to 300 years old, or what do they tell you about their goals?

这是个好问题，因为伊普索·贝尔蒙特曾经说过，第一个能活到150岁的人可能已经出生了。

Well, that's a great question because Ipsosu Belmonte has been quoted saying that it's possible that the first person who will live to be 150 has already been born.

但我在奥尔托斯公司听到的并不是这种说法。

But that is not the messaging that I was getting from Altos.

他们的首席执行官哈尔·巴隆在业内声望很高，我觉得他是在有意控制预期，毕竟少承诺、多兑现总比反过来强。

The person who is their CEO, Hal Barron, is very well regarded in the field, and I think he is trying to keep expectations reasonable because much better to overdeliver and under promise than the other way around.

虽然我不确定这是否属实，也没法替他代言，但我感觉，说要让人活到150岁，确实会让很多人感到不安。

And although I don't know this to be true and I can't really speak for him, I think the idea we're trying to make people live to be 150 makes a lot of people uncomfortable also.

毕竟，这会牵扯出一大堆其他问题，他们可能并不想面对。

You know, it raises all kinds of other questions that maybe they don't wanna have to get into.

不过，也有可能他们只是觉得——

But it is also possible that they just think, look.

只要能把人的健康寿命延长两三年，我们就已经非常满意了。

We'll be really happy if we can extend human health and lifespan by two or three years.

这将是革命性的。

That would be revolutionary.

这甚至超过了治愈癌症所能带来的改变。

That would be surpassing even what would happen if we could cure cancer.

所以我觉得他们是在刻意与‘我们不必衰老’这种想法保持距离。

So I think that they are trying to distance themselves from this idea of we don't have to age.

我们或许可以永生。

We could maybe live forever.

我们可以活到150岁。

We could live to be a 150.

我得到的信息完全不是这样。

That was not the messaging I was getting at all.

听起来他们非常谨慎。

It sounds like they're being really cautious.

对吧？

Right?

他们几乎是把自己塑造成大卫·辛克莱的反面，故意表现得更加理性克制。

Like, they're almost positioning themselves as kind of the anti David Sinclair just in terms of trying to come off as a little bit more sober.

我觉得哈尔·巴隆可能真的认为，如果我们能将人类寿命延长三四年，或者像他说的，把女性卵巢的健康状态延长几年，那已经算得上是奇迹了。

I think it's also possible that Hal Barron really does think it would be a miracle if we could merely extend, you know, human lifespan by three or four years, or as he put it, if we could extend, the health of a woman's ovary by just a few years.

想想看，这对很多女性来说会是多大的改变。

Think about how life changing that would be for many women.

所以我认为他确实觉得实现这些目标已经足够了不起，没必要去空谈那些可能永远无法实现的宏大预言。

So I think that he really does think it would be miraculous to accomplish those things and maybe just doesn't see the point in pie in the sky predictions that may never come to pass.

不管是两年还是一百年，长寿都会带来各种影响，我们等会儿聊聊这些。

Well, whether it's two years or a hundred years, there are obviously some implications of living longer lives, and we're gonna talk about those after the break.

明白。

Okay.

所以，苏，我们已经谈过了科学方面。

So Sue, we have talked about the science.

也谈过了资助这项科学的亿万富翁们。

We have talked about the billionaires who are funding the science.

我们已经谈过了竞争格局。

We have talked about the competition.

那我们普通人呢？

But what about us regular people?

在我们有生之年，能合理期待从这些进展中得到什么？

What can we reasonably expect to get from all of this within our lifetimes perhaps?

你大概不会惊讶，我会说：我们其实还不知道。

Well, you will not be surprised to hear me say that the answer is we don't really know.

但即使在可能的范围内，也存在两种不同的看法。

But even within the realm of possibility, there are kind of two versions.

有些人希望，细胞再生能真正大幅延长我们的寿命和健康寿命。

You know, there are the people who are hoping that cellular rejuvenation will be something that can really dramatically change our lifespan and our health span, how long we're healthy.

对吧？

Right?

也许我们可以不断进行细胞再生，让人活到150岁甚至更久。

Like, maybe we can just keep reapplying cellular rejuvenation and people will end up living to be 150 or even beyond.

我觉得这听起来有点不切实际，但确实有科学家认为，未来某一天这未必不可能。

That seems far fetched to me, but there are actual scientists who think it's not outside the realm of possibility at some point.

而更现实的期待是，咱们先从青光眼说起。

And then there is the more realistic expectation, which is, well, let's start with glaucoma.

你觉得在未来十年内，有可能通过细胞再生技术，开发出安全有效的青光眼疗法吗？

Is it possible that in the next decade even, we could have a safe and effective treatment that relies on cellular rejuvenation to treat it?

有可能。

Yeah.

我觉得这个目标完全在可实现的范围内。

I think that is within the realm of possible.

正因如此，现在才会有这些临床试验。

That's why these trials are happening.

那这项技术未来能不能推广到其他器官，让人多活几年呢？

Could that then be applied to organs so that people live a few more years?

我们不是要大幅延长寿命，而是通过治愈疾病，让人在更长的时间里保持健康。

We're not expanding lifespan in some dramatic way, but we are curing disease so that people can be healthier for longer.

最终的目标是让每个人都能尽可能健康地生活，寿命长一点固然好，但更重要的是减少痛苦，让晚年少一些折磨。

And ultimately, the goal is for people to live as healthy lives as possible that might be longer, but just to have less suffering so that those end years are less painful.

你知道，在我们国家，大部分医疗创新都是由私营部门资助的。

You know, in this country at least, so much medical innovation is funded by the private sector.

正如你刚才提到的，进入这个领域的资金很多都来自高净值个人。

And as you told us, a lot of the money that is coming into this field is coming from high net worth individuals.

所以我想知道，这种区别真的有影响吗？还是说，这在美国本来就是常态——有钱有热情又有资源的人支持这类研究？

So I wonder, does that matter at all, that distinction, or is this just what you might expect in The United States when you have a group of people with money and interest and resources to put behind this kind of study?

这其实很难说清楚，因为历史上从未出现过亿万富翁投资者如此集中地介入医疗领域，同时还掌控着技术、信息获取和隐私权。

It's a little bit hard to know because I think there's never really been the intersection of billionaire investors in health care that also overlap so much with, like, you know, control over technology and information access and privacy.

你明白吧？

You know?

这是一片全新的领域，但毫无疑问，产业界一直都在推动许多重大医学突破，制药公司就是典型例子。

It's it's very uncharted territory, but, you know, obviously, industry has always been you know, pharmaceutical companies have always been behind many of the great breakthroughs that happen.

所以我们的医疗体系从来就不是和利润脱钩的。

So it's not like our medical care is divorced from profit.

恰恰相反。

Far from it.

说清楚一点，这些亿万富翁在研发上投入巨资，是希望从中赚到钱。

To be clear, you know, these billionaires are investing huge amounts of money in R and D in the hopes that they can make a profit from it as well.

而他们要想赚钱，

And the only way they'll be able to make a profit from

就必须让这些医疗手段最终能普及到普通大众。

it is if the medical treatments are eventually widely available to the general population.

即使抗衰老科学真的彻底改变我们的老化方式，全球很多地方的人口却在减少。

Even if longevity science ends up revolutionizing the way that we age, we are also dealing with declining populations in many parts of the world.

对吧？

Right?

这确实是个现实问题。

Like, there is a real question.

有人甚至说这是一场危机：当年轻人越来越少时，我们该怎么照顾老年人？

Some might describe it as a crisis about how we are going to take care of our older generations when we do not have young people to do that.

所以，如果你在讨论让人活得越来越久，这会对社会带来哪些超出科学、健康和医疗层面的影响呢？

So if you're talking about making people live for longer and longer, what are the implications of that for our society beyond just the scientific and the health and the medical?

确实如此。

Yeah.

很多哲学家都在探讨这类问题。

Many philosophers are weighing in on this kind of question.

我的意思是，这还牵涉到经济层面的问题。

I mean, there are there are economic questions.

我们的整个社会保障体系，根本没考虑过人能活到110岁。

You know, our entire social security system is not designed for people to live to be 110.

那这对经济会有什么影响？

So what does that do to that economy?

从哲学角度看，当人们比以往更久地占据着工作岗位，这又意味着什么？

Philosophically, what does it mean when people are holding on to jobs for longer than they used to?

这会不会导致创新减少，活力下降？

Does that mean that there's less innovation, less freshness?

支持长寿科学的人会说，别忘了，人们不仅活得更久，而且不是在病痛中苟延残喘。

People who are champions of longevity science would say, now remember, people are not just living longer and living longer in unhealthy lives.

他们是活得更久，也更健康。

They are living longer and healthier.

这才是目标。

That's the goal.

所以，他们很可能在更长的岁月里保持创造力、灵活性、活力和参与感。

And so they presumably maybe would be creative and nimble and active and engaged for many, many more years of their lives.

如果我们确实面临人口减少，也许就需要让人们更长时间地保持健康状态，来填补各种岗位，让经济持续运转。

And if we do have a population decline, maybe we need people to be able to function in a healthy way for longer to fill all those roles to keep the economy hustling along.

只有当年轻一代不够多，无法负担老年人的医疗开支时，这才成了危机。

It only becomes a crisis if there's a shortage of young people to pay for the medical care of these older people.

但如果他们能更长久地保持健康，这个问题就没那么紧迫了。

But if they're healthier longer, then that issue is not as pressing.

天哪。

Oh my god.

你的意思是，因为我活得更健康，我得一直工作到一百岁才能养活自己？而且因为身体好，我还想到处旅游、做各种事，结果反而没法停下来休息？

Are you saying I'm gonna have to retire at a 100 now because I'm gonna have to keep working to sustain myself so I because I'm so healthy, I'm gonna wanna travel and do things, and I will not be able to not work.

我觉得这事儿还没算清楚呢。

I think we haven't quite figured out the math on that.

对。

Yeah.

你知道的，当初我们刚开始策划这个报道时，第一个讨论的话题就是：难道大家不早就知道怎么长寿了吗？

You You know, so when we first started talking about doing this story, one of the first discussions we had here at The Daily was like, don't we all already know how to live longer?

比如，吃得好点，多运动，别整天盯着屏幕。

Like, you eat well, you exercise, you don't stare at a screen all day.

这些都是大家心里都明白的基本常识。

There's some very basic things that people know.

但在健康问题上，就像其他很多方面一样，我们总希望能有现成的解决方案，比如药物，来弥补我们可能没有好好照顾自己这一事实。不管是因为什么原因，我们要么做不到，要么就是不愿意去做。

But like so many other parts of our health, we want solutions, pharmaceutical solutions to basically account for the fact that we might not be taking care of ourselves the way that maybe we could, but for whatever reason we can't or won't.

我举个例子，比如GLP-1类药物。

I'm thinking for example about GLP ones.

对吧？

Right?

像这类药物，其实是让人活得更健康的一种捷径。

Like, ones are a shortcut to allow people to live much healthier lives.

这看起来像是另一种方式，让我们可以绕开本该好好照顾身体的义务。

And this is seems like another way to kind of hack our bodies so that we maybe don't have to treat them as optimally as we should.

是的。

Yeah.

这真让我觉得特别有意思。

It it is fascinating to me.

我同意。

I agree.

哈尓·巴隆曾经跟我说过，其实我们已经知道怎么让人逆转衰老了。

Because one of the things that Hal Barron said to me is we know that we can kind of reverse aging in people because we already know how to do it.

而我们知道的方法就是饮食和运动，所以我当时就想问，那为什么还要砸几十亿进去呢？

And the way that we know how to do it is through diet and exercise to which I wanted to say, then why again do we need to invest billions in this?

真让人惊讶，我们明明早就知道运动、饮食、睡眠和社交对人的整体健康有多重要。

It is kind of amazing how much we know exercise and diet and sleep and also sociability really do matter for people's general health.

没错。

Right.

我觉得我们家特别幸运，我父母现在都88岁了。

I mean, my family feels very fortunate because my parents are now 88.

几年前，我妈妈——希望别出什么意外——算是个超级老人，我爸爸可能也是。但那时候，我和兄弟姐妹们渐渐发现，他确实在方方面面都开始显老了。

And a few years ago, although my mom, I think, is kind of knock on wood, a super ager, And maybe my dad is too, but a few years ago, my siblings and I were starting to notice that he you know, we could see that he was aging in, you know, in all kinds of ways.

后来，他和我妈妈搬进了一个位于大学校园里的养老社区。

And then he and my mom joined one of these retirement communities that exists on the campus of a college.

从那以后，他们天天有社交，经常出去吃饭，我爸还报了艺术史课，现在甚至负责组织电影放映活动。

And suddenly, they were socializing all the time, and they were going out to dinner, they were my dad was taking an art history class, and now he runs a film series.

我和兄弟姐妹们都觉得，他简直像被这段经历重新激活了一样。

And my siblings and I feel he literally has been rejuvenated by this experience.

看着这一切，真的特别有意思。

It's been fascinating to watch.

但并不是每个人都有这样的条件。

But not everybody does have that kind of luxury.

正如你所说，GLP-1这类研究告诉我们，吃得健康不只是简单地少吃一点。

And just as you say, we now know if GLP ones show us anything, it's that eating right is not just a matter of, you know, just try to eat less.

事情没那么简单。

It's just not that simple.

还存在食物荒漠，蔬菜供应严重不足。

Or there are food deserts and vegetables are in short supply.

很多人感到孤独，压力大，这让他们很难睡好觉。

People are lonely and, you know, are under stress and that makes it hard for them to sleep well.

所以，如果这项研究能以更普及、更实惠的方式带来类似的效果，真正帮助人们延长健康寿命、缩短病痛期，那确实会带来根本性的改变。

So it's true that if this research could create some of those effects in a more accessible way, in a way that's affordable, and that really does allow people to live longer, healthier lives with shorter shorter periods of suffering that really could be transformative.

苏珊·多米努斯，非常感谢你。

Susan Dominus, thank you so much.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

本期节目由卢克·范德普卢格制作，蒂娜·安塔利尼协助。

Today's episode was produced by Luke Vander Plug with help from Tina Antalini.

剪辑由温迪·多尔负责，音效由罗文·内米斯托完成。

It was edited by Wendy Doerr and engineered by Rowan Nemisto.

制作协助由达莉亚·哈达德提供，背景音乐由丹·鲍威尔和玛丽安·洛萨诺创作。

It had production assistance from Dahlia Haddad and contains music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano.

以上就是本周日每日播报的全部内容。

That's it for the Sunday Daily.

我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯。

I'm Rachel Abrams.

明天见。

See you tomorrow.