中国夺走了他的城市，如今又带走了他的父亲。

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴拉。

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbara.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is the Daily.

2019年，香港的民主运动吸引了数十万人走上街头。

The pro democracy movement in Hong Kong brought hundreds of thousands of people out into the streets in 2019.

他们要求民主，并要求中国履行其在上世纪九十年代从英国手中收回香港时所承诺的自由。

They demanded democracy and that China uphold the freedoms it had promised when it took back the British colony in the late nineteen nineties.

对于

For

自北京对香港实施新的安全法以来，警方首次进行了数十次逮捕，并对示威者使用了水炮和催泪瓦斯。

the first time since Beijing imposed a new security law on Hong Kong, police have carried out dozens of arrests and used water cannon and tear gas against protesters.

中国对此作出回应，逮捕了数千名抗议者，包括运动领袖，如一名叫黎智英的人。

China responded by arresting thousands of protesters, including the leaders of the movement, like a man named Jimmy Lai.

几十年来，黎智英一直利用自己的财富和报纸为民主奔走呼吁。

For decades, Lai had used his wealth and his newspaper to campaign for democracy.

他一直是北京的一根刺。

He was a constant thorn in the side of Beijing.

如果我早知道我会落得如此下场，被关进监狱，我会改变我的生活方式吗？

If I knew that I would be, you know, end up like this and be prisons, would I have changed the way I run my life?

我意识到，不会。

And I realized that, no.

我不会改变。

I won't.

我们

We

2020年他刚被逮捕时，我们在节目中采访了他。

interviewed Lai on the show in 2020 just after he was arrested.

因为我以前从没有刻意做过任何事，只是顺其自然。

Because I never did anything before intentionally, just naturally.

所以这一定是我的本性。

So it must be my character.

如果这就是我的性格，那这就是我的命运。

Now if he's my character, it's my destiny.

这就是我的命运。

It's my destiny.

这是上帝的恩典与祝福。

It's God's grace and blessing.

所以我彻底释然了。

So I was all relieved.

是的。

Yeah.

他后来被裁定犯有危害国家安全罪。

He was later found guilty of national security crimes.

本月早些时候，在监禁五年后，黎智英被传唤出席量刑听证会。

And earlier this month, after five years of waiting behind bars, Jimmy Lai was summoned for his sentencing hearing.

当他抵达法院时，显而易见的是，他曾经帮助领导的运动如今已名存实亡。

And when he arrived at the courthouse, what became clear is that the movement he once helped lead had now become a shell of itself.

一小群支持民主的示威者聚集在法院外，他们用围巾和口罩遮住脸，以免被认出。

A small group of pro democracy demonstrators had gathered outside, their faces hidden by scarves and masks for fear of being identified.

他们和黎智英本人一样，都在等待他的判决结果。

They, like Lie himself, were waiting to learn his sentence.

众所周知，那是一个极其沉重、几乎荒谬地严厉的判决。

The heavy very heavy sentence, you know, almost comically heavy sentence was expected.

二十年？

Twenty years?

是的。

Yeah.

二十年。

Twenty years.

以他的年龄来看，这基本上等于终身监禁。

For his age, that's basically a life sentence.

黎智英的儿子塞巴斯蒂安也在等待。

Jimmy Lai's son, Sebastian, was also waiting.

我的意思是，等他出狱的时候，如果他还能活着出来，他已经98岁了。

I mean, by the time he gets out, if he does, he'll be 98.

考虑到他的健康状况以及他被关押的环境，我不确定他能否活到服完十分之一的刑期。

Given the health conditions that he's in and given the conditions that he's been kept in, I don't know if he could even serve one tenth of that sentence.

他多年来一直努力营救父亲，而得知父亲被判刑的消息时，他正身处数千英里外的巴黎。

He spent years trying to free his father and learned the news of his sentence from thousands of miles away in Paris.

过去五年里，他的健康状况急剧恶化。

His health has deteriorated massively over the last five years.

他的指甲正在脱落。

His nails are falling off.

他有心脏问题。

He's got heart problems.

我的意思是，每个人身边都有像他这样年纪的人，七十多岁到八十出头。

I mean, look, everybody knows someone around his age, late seventies, early eighties.

如果你把一个这么高龄的人关在一间60平方英尺的牢房里，全天候单独监禁，哪怕只关一百天，这个人存活的可能性都很低。

And if you put a man that age, in a 60 square feet cell, in solid confinement the whole time, even if you do that for someone for a hundred days, the likelihood of that person surviving is not high.

他已经被关押了一千八百多天了。

And he's been in there for a thousand eight hundred days and more.

哇。

Wow.

你对这个数字非常清楚。

You know that number very well.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不幸的是，我确实知道。

Unfortunately, I do.

但有一个小小的时刻给了我一些勇气。

But there was a little moment that gave me some courage.

宣判时，法庭报道说，他甚至设法露出了微笑，几乎是在告诉他的看守者：他仍在抗争，尽管他们束缚了他的身体，试图摧毁它，却无法禁锢他的灵魂。

It was when the sentence was announced, and report from court said that he even managed to flash a smile, almost to tell his captors that that he's still fighting, that even though they've shackled his body, attempt to break it, they have not shackled his soul.

我认为他的精神因迫害而变得更加强大。

And I think his spirit is only being made stronger by his persecution.

今天，我们与黎 Sebastian 讨论他父亲的判决、这对民主运动的意义，以及香港未来的走向。

Today, we speak with Sebastian Lai about his father's sentence, what it means for the pro democracy movement, and where Hong Kong goes from here.

今天是2月27日，星期五。

It's Friday, February 27.

喝点咖啡，吃点早餐吧。

Have have some coffee and breakfast.

就这样了。

That's it.

五年前，我们做过一期关于你父亲的节目，那时他刚被逮捕。

So five years ago, we Sebastian made an episode about your father around the time when he was first arrested.

那期节目的许多细节至今仍让我印象深刻。

And so many of the details from that episode stick out to me.

他出生在中国大陆，在共产党掌权期间于贫困中长大。

He was born in Mainland China and grew up in poverty during the communist takeover there.

当时那里发生了大规模饥荒。

There was widespread famine at that time.

我小时候当童工。

I work as a boy.

他回忆起在火车上工作的经历。

And he recollected the story of working on the trains.

那些我帮着搬行李的人。

Those guys I carry the baggage for.

来回为去香港的富人搬行李，其中一个人给了他一块巧克力。

Carrying the bags of rich people who were going to Hong Kong back and forth, and how one man gave him a piece of chocolate.

这是什么？

What's this?

这是巧克力。

It's a chocolate.

我问：‘你从哪里来？’

I said, where are you from?

香港。

Hong Kong.

我说，‘ Kong’一定是天堂。

I said, Kong must be heaven.

这在他记忆中如此非凡，因为这种甜味是他从未体验过的，这种奢侈是他根本无法想象的，这最终促使他逃往香港。

That was so extraordinary in in his memory because this was a sweetness he had never known and a luxury he he couldn't really even imagine that it prompted him eventually to flee to Hong Kong.

他实际上藏在一艘船上前往那里，这都是在你出生之前的事了。

And he actually ends up hiding in a boat traveling there, and this was all before your time.

但这些是你小时候听过的故事吗？

But were these stories that you heard growing up?

是的。

Yeah.

他还会告诉我他刚抵达香港时的故事。

He also would tell me the story of when he first landed into Hong Kong.

他去了市场，一生中从未见过这么多食物。

And he went to the markets, and he hadn't ever seen so much food in his entire life.

所以他崩溃大哭起来。

So he he broke down crying.

他总是说，那是他一生中最美好的日子之一，因为在香港，尽管他一无所有，但他至少拥有自由和未来。

And he'd always say it's one of the best days of his life because in Hong Kong, even though he had nothing, he knew that at least he had freedom and that he had future.

我一直以来都是带着一种非常快乐的视角听到这些故事的。

And I actually always heard these stories through a very happy lens.

但直到长大后，我才意识到那段时期对他来说有多么痛苦。

And it's only growing up that I realized how painful that period of his life would have been.

当他从一无所有变成亿万富翁时，他最终买下了一家自己的工厂。

Well, when he goes from nothing to becoming a multimillionaire, he eventually buys his own factory.

他创办了一家服装公司，后来又推出了一本非常受欢迎的杂志，接着在英国统治时期的香港创办了《苹果日报》。

He launches a clothing company and eventually starts a very popular magazine and then a newspaper, Apple Daily, when Hong Kong was still governed by Britain.

对香港和全世界许多人来说，他成为了民主事业的倡导者。

And to so many in Hong Kong and around the world, he becomes this pro democracy champion.

但对其他人，包括中国政府来说，他则是另一种形象。

To others, including the Chinese government, he's something else.

他是个煽动者。

He's an agitator.

他是个麻烦制造者。

He is a troublemaker.

但对你来说，他是你的父亲，这正是我们今天想聊的。

But to you, he's your father, and that's what we wanna talk about here.

Jimmy Lai 是个什么样的父亲？

What kind of dad was Jimmy Lai?

我出生于1994年。

So I was born in '94.

正好在回归之前吗？

Just just before the handover?

没错。

Exactly.

我出生在回归前三年。

I was born three years before the handover.

我的所有回忆都是非常快乐的。

And, I mean, all the memories that I have are are very happy memories.

我想这就是记忆对人的影响。

I guess that's what memory does to you.

但他是个非常好的父亲，也是一个非常有个性的人。

But he was a very good father, and he was also a very colorful personality.

他以前养过一只熊。

I mean, he used to have a bear.

他以前养过一只熊？

He used to have a bear?

他家里曾经养过一只棕熊。

He used to have a brown bear at home.

当他经营佐丹奴的时候

So when he was doing Giordano

这是那个服装品牌

This is the clothing line

他在报纸出现之前就创立了。

he created before the newspapers.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

服装品牌。

Clothing line.

他曾经雇佣过卡车司机。

He would have truck drivers.

有一天，他的一名卡车司机看到了那只熊。

And one day, one of his truck drivers got saw the bear.

但他以为那是一只狗。

Well, he thought it was a dog.

他以为那是一只小狗。

He thought it was a puppy.

所以他去找我父亲，直接说：‘老板，这是送给您的礼物。’

So he went to my father and just was like, here boss, this is a present for you.

我爸爸说：‘那你要我拿它怎么办？’

And my dad was like, well, what do you want me to do with it?

那是一个关键时刻，他们并不想让事情失控，或者做些什么来把它处理掉。

And it was one of those moments where, know, they didn't want, you know, to call out of control or whatever it is to put it down.

所以爸爸把这只熊带回家了。

So so dad kept the bear at home.

后来，我们把它送到了泰国的动物园之类的地方，但那是一段时间之后的事了。

And then eventually, you know, we we got sent to a zoo and whatnot in Thailand, but for for a period.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

那只熊。

The bear.

这确实表明了一种某种冒险精神。

That does suggest a certain a certain adventurousness.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他喜欢突破界限。

He pushes boundaries.

对吧？

Right?

突然间，你就和一只熊住在一起了。

Suddenly, you're living with a bear.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

他曾经是，现在也是。

He was a well, he is.

他骨子里仍然是个真正的叛逆者。

He's still a a real rebel at heart.

那香港本身呢？

And what about Hong Kong itself?

你如何看待你父亲与这座城市的关系？

How did you experience your dad's relationship to the city?

我的意思是，他最喜欢的地方很多都是餐厅。

I mean, a lot of his favorite places were restaurants.

他总是去那些很棒的粤菜馆，你知道的，有点心、清蒸鱼，非常本地化，很传统，但菜品很简单。

He always go to these, like, wonderful Cantonese places, you know, with the dim sums, with the steamed fish, very local, very, you know, almost traditional, but very simple dishes.

我觉得从他第一天抵达开始，甚至回溯到巧克力的故事，他都对食物有着特殊的情感，这正是生活中带给他很多快乐的事情之一。

I think going back to the first day he arrived, has kind of this and even back to the chocolate story, he has this relationship with food that gave him, you know, it was one of those things that gave him a lot of joy in life.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，这不仅味道绝佳，对我而言，更重要的是那种反差。

I mean, not only was it absolutely delicious, but for me, it was that contrast.

你什么意思？

What what do you mean?

我想，大家都知道香港是什么样子，那些巨大的人造摩天大楼仿佛要触碰到天空。

I I think, you know, obviously, people know how Hong Kong looks like, you know, these massive man made skyscrapers that threatened to touch the sky.

所以，你可以在这样一个庞大的都市中，依然找到这种墙角小店。

And so you could have this massive metropolis, but still have these kind of hole in the wall type of place.

作为孩子，那一刻正是你感受到这座城市东方气息的时刻。

And as a kid, that's kind of the moment where you kind of see the Eastern influence of the place.

香港是一座深植于中国文化的都市，同时也拥有西方价值观，比如自由媒体和言论自由。

Hong Kong is a city that's steeped in Chinese culture, but then also had Western values, free press, freedom of expression.

我们有着非常强大的法治体系。

We had a very strong rule of law.

你知道，那是那个地区最自由的城市之一。

You know, was one of the freest cities in that part of the world.

你知道，长大后，你会深深意识到这一点。

You know, growing up, you kind of you very much realize that.

事实上，我仍然记得爸爸创办报纸的时候。

In fact, I I still remember when dad started his newspaper.

我记得和他一起去印刷厂，是的。

And I remember going to the printing presses Mhmm.

和他一起，那真是令人难以置信。

With him, and it was pretty incredible.

你会听到机器不停地运转。

You would hear the machines that were nonstop.

你会沿着扶梯爬上去，从高处观看机器。

And you go up railings to see the machines from up top.

我想我当时八九岁，爸爸牵着我的手，另一只手扶着栏杆。

And I think I must have been eight or nine, so my dad took me by by the hand, and then the other hand had touched the railings.

我仍然记得看着自己的手。

And I I I still remember looking at my hand.

我看了看，手已经被墨水染黑了。

I looked at it, and my hand was black from the ink.

那是我第一次真正明白爸爸是做什么工作的。

And it was one of those moments where I kind of knew what dad did for work.

我觉得那就是一个让我对这一切有了真实感受的时刻。

It's just I think it was one of those moments that made it very real for me.

新闻业是你想从事的职业吗？

And and was journalism something that you wanted to do?

经营一家报纸是你想做的事吗？

Was owning a newspaper something that you wanted to do?

你爸爸从事的整个这一行。

This this entire line of work that your dad is doing.

这并不是我特别想从事的工作。

It wasn't something that I particularly wanted to do.

我认为部分原因是他在如何让我们生活这方面非常自由。

And I think part of the reason is because he was very free in in in terms of how he wanted us to to live our lives.

所以他让你摆脱了必须从事这一行的期望，去追求你真正想要的东西。

So he kind of freed you from that expectation to pursue what you wanted.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他知道这是他自己的战斗。

He knew that this was his fight.

你知道，尤其有一些时候，他被人跟踪，家被人纵火，有人剥了一只狗的皮，把它钉在我们家门口。

You know, especially there were occasions where he was followed, a house was firebombed, someone skinned a dog and pinned it on our door.

哇。

Wow.

所以，丹知道这并不是一场普通的斗争。

And so, you know, Dan knew that this wasn't a fight.

他自己会说，他并不一定想把这场斗争传给他的孩子们，因为他深知其中的巨大牺牲。

It wasn't a he would say himself that it wasn't necessarily a fight that he wanted to pass on to his kids because he knew that tremendous sacrifice.

事实上，我认为这正是他最了不起的地方。

And in fact, I think that's what is so remarkable about him.

一个人作为偷渡者来到这里，却成为最成功的企业家之一，然后说：我要放弃所有这些成功和机会，只为站出来维护正义。

This idea of someone arriving as a stowaway and becoming one of the most successful business people, and then saying that I'm gonna sacrifice all of that success, all of those opportunities to stand up for what is right.

我仍然记得那一刻。

And I still remember this moment.

当时是我、他和我母亲。

It's me, him and my mother.

我们在伦敦的海德公园散步，那天阳光明媚，而我父亲，你知道的，他学会了唱歌。

We're in London walking through Hyde Park and it's a sunny day and my father was, you know, he he learned how to sing.

说实话，他唱得并不好。

To be completely honest, he didn't sing that well.

但他喜欢唱歌，而这就是你变得更好的方式。

But but he liked to sing, and that's how you know, that's how you get better.

在伦敦这个美好的日子里，他就在公园里唱歌。

And on this beautiful day in London, he just he's just singing in the park.

他唱的是什么？

What what what was he singing?

他唱的是《圣母颂》。

He was singing Ave Maria.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

这首歌对任何人来说都很难唱。

A difficult song for anyone.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这非常真实。

That's very true.

你知道吗，回想起那一天，我父亲，阳光照在他身上，他扯着嗓子大喊：我结婚了。

You know, thinking back on that day, just my father, you know, the sun shining on him, saying I've been married at the top of his lungs.

即使那时我可能只有十四、十五岁，我突然意识到，这就是个人自由的样子。

Even at that age, I think I was maybe 14, 15, a thought came to me that it's what personal freedom looks like.

你知道，这是一个热爱生活、热爱生活中无数美好事物的人。

You know, here's a man who who loves life, who loves so many different elements of life.

当他逃离中国时，他所追求的正是这种自由。

And when he escaped China, that was what he escaped for.

那一刻，我意识到他已经实现了这一切——他拥有财富、地位，以及来自他人的认可，一个真正自由的人。如果他留在那里，留在伦敦，你知道，他已经是英国公民了。

And it was a moment where I realized he had long achieved that that he had the wealth, the status, the appreciation of Someone that was free or someone that was truly free and had he stayed there Had he stayed in London, you know, he's a British citizen.

他拥有英国护照，本可以享有个人自由，但尽管如此，他却说：我不能仅仅做一个只为个人享乐而活的人。

He's got a British passport He would have had personal freedom But despite that said that, actually, I can't just be a person who who lives for my own pleasure.

你甚至在青少年时期就开始理解这一点了，听起来是这样。

And you were starting to understand that even as, it sounds like, a teenager.

是的

Yeah.

你父亲本可以，如果他愿意的话，过着持续放纵的生活。

That your dad was a man who could have lived, if he chose to, in a state of constant indulgence.

你知道，他的一生本可以只是漫步在一片美丽的公园里，边走边唱。

You know, he his whole life could have been essentially walking through a very beautiful park singing.

但他却选择了一条截然不同的道路，充满了更多的风险与挣扎。

And instead, he chose a very different life with a great deal more risk and struggle.

是的

Yeah.

我想他选择的不是外在看似美好的生活，而是一种内在之美的人生。

I I I think he chose a life that instead of life that would have been outwardly beautiful, he chose one of inward beauty.

嗯

Mhmm.

这种生活最终让他身陷香港的监狱。

One that, you know, has landed him in the Hong Kong prison.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我们给《纽约时报》的员工预览了跨平台游戏功能，以下是他们的反馈。

We gave Times employees a preview of cross play from New York Times games, and here's what they had to say.

我终于可以和其他人一起玩了。

I can finally play with other people.

你可以和你认识的朋友一起玩，也可以随机匹配到世界上的其他人。

Play with friends that you already know, or you can just be matched with someone else in the world.

我有一个J，得10分，我可以把它放在双字母格上。

I have a j for 10 points, and I can put that on a double letter.

所以J-A-M，一共24分。

So j a m, that's 24 points.

我要把fax变成faxes，得30分。

I am going to take fax and make it faxes for 30 points.

我猜Tanga不是一个单词。

I'm guessing Tanga is not a word.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

Tanga 是一个单词。

Tanga is a word.

一个敌人。

A foe.

我不知道 Tanga 是什么意思，所以我按了一下这个词，结果定义弹出来了。

I don't know what Tanga means, so I'm gonna press down on the word and oh, definition popped up.

作为一名英语作为第二语言的学习者，我喜欢学习新单词。

As in English as a second language speaker, I like to learn new words.

我很有竞争力。

I'm pretty competitive.

击败朋友和同事很有趣。

It's fun to beat friends and coworkers.

《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户可全面访问 Crossplay，这是我们首款双人文字游戏。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to Crossplay, our first two player word game.

立即订阅，享受我们所有游戏的特别优惠。

Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games.

我想知道，你是否曾预料到中国关于香港自由的承诺会落空？

I'm curious if you anticipated at any point that the promises that China made about Hong Kong's freedoms.

我想知道，你是什么时候开始感觉到这些承诺不会兑现的？

I wonder when you started to sense that those promises were not gonna be kept.

对我来说，至少是在2014年伞运期间。

For me, at least, it was 2014 during the umbrella protest.

这些都是支持民主的。

These are these are pro democracy.

没错。

Exactly.

支持民主的抗议活动。

Pro democracy protest.

当时我还是个大学生，我爸每天都出去参加抗议。

I was a university student at that point, and dad used to go out every day and join the protest.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

他会站在那里拿着麦克风发表演讲，然后鼓励人们为这些诉求站起来，和平地行动等等。

He would stand up there with a microphone and give speeches and then tell people to stand up for this and do it peacefully or whatnot.

他一直是个热爱和平的人。

He was always a man of peace.

但他被催泪瓦斯袭击了，甚至有人朝他扔了催泪弹。

But he was tear gassed, or someone even shot a canister at him.

还有一次，他们往他身上扔了死猪。

And then there was once where he they threw pig in and on him.

哇。

Wow.

当催泪瓦斯来袭时，他会擦擦脸，然后重新站上去继续讲话。

And then once the tear gas came, he'd sort of, you know, wipe his face and then and then go back up again and talk again.

在这些事情发生的时候，你也会和你爸爸一起在街上吗？

As this is happening, are are you out in the streets with your dad?

你参加了2014年的抗议活动吗？

Are you participating in those twenty fourteen protests?

是的。

Yeah.

我在街上，但没和爸爸在一起。

I was out on the streets, but I wasn't with dad.

但你是在抗议吗？

But you were protesting?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我在抗议。

I was protesting.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我也被催泪弹击中了。

I mean, I was also hit with tear canisters as well.

我记得当时我和女朋友（那时还是未婚妻）在一起，我告诉她：快转身走开。

And I just remember I I was with my girlfriend and our wife at that time, I just told her, like, look, this is turn around and start walking.

然后你会感觉到后颈一阵刺痛，接着吸入一口气，所有的催泪气体就涌进来了。

And then you feel a prickle at the back of your neck, and then you breathe in and, you know, the all the tear gas.

所以我至今仍记得那种感觉。

And so I still remember that.

我的意思是，和我爸所经历的相比，这根本算不了什么，他可是实实在在地站在最前线。

I mean, you know, nothing compared to what dad was doing, which he was literally on the front lines.

他鼓励你参与抗议活动吗？

Was he encouraging you to get involved in the protests?

没有。

No.

我认为他并不需要别人来鼓励他。

I I don't think it was something that he needed encouraging.

我认为，在那个时候，我们意识到我们是在为我们的家园、为我们的孩子以及他们的后代争取这些自由。

I think, know, at that point, we realized that we're fighting for these freedoms for our home and for our kids and and their kids.

你感觉自己正在参与一件比自己更重要的事情。

You felt like you were part of something that was bigger than yourself.

当然，在2014年抗议活动平息了一段时间后，到2019年，它们再次全面爆发。

Of course, after the 2014 protests, which died down for some period of time, by 2019, they are in full blossom once again.

人们走上街头，这些抗议活动最终聚焦于一项如今臭名昭著的国家安全法，该法开始以一种相当正式的方式剥夺人们的自由。

People are out in the streets, and those protests end up centering around this now infamous national security law that starts to take freedoms away in a pretty formal way.

我不得不想象，在那段时期，你心里一定开始琢磨这一切对你的父亲意味着什么。

And I have to imagine that in the back of your head, in that period, you're starting to wonder what all this means for your father.

对你来说，中国当局可能要针对你父亲的第一个迹象是什么？

What was for you the first sign that Chinese authorities might be coming for your dad?

我认为是某些警察的暴行以及对大量抗议活动的镇压。

I think it was the brutality by some of the police officers and the crackdowns on a lot of the protest.

我用的词是有点过于激进。

The phrase I'll use is kind of overzealousness.

我的天啊。

My god.

我的天啊。

My god.

那时，香港民众和警察之间的一种社会契约被打破了。

There was a kind of a a social contract that was broken between the people of Hong Kong and the police at that point.

这是新出现的吗？

This was new?

是的。

Yeah.

这是新出现的。

This was new.

然后，显然，国家安全法正式通过了。

And then from there, obviously, the actual passing of the national security law.

显然，当时很多人都劝他离开，因为大家都知道他是主要目标之一。

And, obviously, many people told that to leave at that point because I mean, everybody kinda knew that he was one of main targets.

这项法律似乎

That that law seemed to have

就是为了他量身定做的。

his name written all over it.

这简直就像是专门为他量身打造的一样，这么说吧。

That it was kind of, like, you know, almost tailor made for him, so to speak.

你有没有尝试劝你父亲低调行事，或许在这段时期停止他正在做的事？

Did you ever try to persuade your dad to lay low, to perhaps stop what he was doing in this period?

老实说，我反复思考过这个问题，但我确实没有这么做。

I I I, honestly, I've thought about that a lot, and I I didn't I didn't.

我一直在想，为什么我没有这么做，因为即使在那时，我也知道如果他留在香港，我可能再也见不到他了。

And and I keep thinking about why I did not do it because even at that point, I knew that there was a possibility that I'd never see my father again if he stayed in Hong Kong.

我也明白，人生中偶尔会有这样的时刻，你被自己的原则召唤，去做正确的事。

I also knew that there's a few opportunities in life where you're where you're called, you know, almost by your principles to do the right thing.

显然，每个人都知道离开会是更轻松的选择，但他知道那是错误的选择。

And obviously, everybody knows that leaving would have been for a much more comfortable choice, but he knew that it was a wrong choice.

作为儿子，我能看出他知道那是错误的选择。

And as a son, I could see that he knew that it was the wrong choice.

他知道他是船长，必须与船共存亡。

He knew that he was a captain and that he needed to go down with the ship.

通过留下，他几乎可以成为吸引后续迫害的避雷针。

And that by staying, he could almost act as a lightning rod for the persecution to come.

周一，香港警方根据中国的新国家安全法，逮捕了迄今为止最高调的嫌疑人。

Hong Kong police on Monday made the highest profile arrest yet under China's new national security law for the city.

媒体大亨黎智英。

Media tycoon Jimmy Lai.

香港媒体大亨黎智英已被北京方面以涉嫌违反国家安全法为由逮捕。

Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai has been arrested under Beijing's And

然后，你所担心的事情就发生了。

then what you feared happens.

他被逮捕了。

He's arrested.

最著名的民主活动人士之一

Of the most prominent democracy activists

他被捕的时候你在哪儿？

Where where were you when he was arrested?

我当时正在台湾出差。

So I was actually I was on a business trip in Taiwan.

如果你还记得那时候，当时是隔离期。

And if you remember back in those days, it was quarantine.

所以我还在隔离中，凌晨五点有人敲我的门，告诉我爸爸被逮捕了，他们派了数十名国家安全警察到我们家抓他，然后在他自己的办公室里押着他游街。

So I was still in quarantine, and someone knocks on my door at five in the morning and tells me that dad had been arrested, that they sent dozens of national security police officers to our home to grab him and then perk walk him through his own office.

是的。

Right.

一场相当精心策划的权力游戏。

A pretty elaborate power play.

咱们坦诚一点吧。

Let's just be honest.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，他们把他从家里抓走，带到他的办公室，向全世界发表声明。

I mean, they take him from his home where they arrested him to his office to say something to the world.

是的。

Yeah.

向全世界以及他所有的将领们传达信息。

To say something to the world and to all his generals as well.

对。

Yeah.

我以为我会回香港，但他们开始逮捕其他人了。

And, yeah, I thought I was gonna go back to Hong Kong, but they started arresting other people.

而且，我知道这并不安全。

And, yeah, and I knew that it wasn't it wasn't safe.

我的意思是，你可以合理地认为，如果你回去了，你自己也可能被逮捕吗？

I mean, is it is it safe to assume that you understood that if you had returned, you yourself might be arrested?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

你有没有哪怕一刻想过还是要回去？

Did any part of you think about going anyway?

我的意思是，我知道你父亲已经让你从当一名自由斗士的义务中解脱出来了，你知道的，就是接管他的生意。

I mean, I know your father freed you from the obligations of being a freedom fighter, you know, of taking over his his business.

但你有没有想过，我是不是该回去？

But did any part of you think, I should go back?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

当我第一次听说他被逮捕时，我想尽我所能救出我的父亲。

When I first heard that he was arrested, I wanted to do what I can to to free my father.

这令人心碎。

And it's it's heartbreaking.

我我

I I

我不是想挑衅，但我很好奇，不回去会不会让你感到内疚。

I don't mean to be provocative, but I am I'm curious if not going back entails any kind of feelings of guilt.

我实际上觉得，也许你需要再过四五年问我一次这个问题。

I I I actually I I think that's that might be something that you have to ask me again in in four five years.

我的内心深处显然最想见到他，胜过一切。

I I mean, think some part of me obviously wants to see him more than anything.

我已经五年没见到他了。

I haven't seen him in in five years.

我没能当面告诉他，我多么想念他，多么为他感到骄傲。

I haven't been able to tell him in person how much I miss him, how proud I I am of him.

但我在香港又能做些什么呢？

But what can I do from Hong Kong?

我只能无能为力地通过屏幕看着他，通过电话和他交谈。

I'll I'll feel powerless to kind of just see him through this loss screen and and and talk to him on the phone.

如果他们甚至允许我这么做的话，至少通过我现在所做的一切，还有机会再次见到他，见到一个重获自由的他。

If they even let me do that, At least by doing what I'm doing now, there's a chance with me seeing him again, seeing him again as a free man.

如果你为救他而出力的倡导行动最终成功了的话。

If the advocacy you're doing to try to get him out were to work.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

你现在和监狱里的父亲有任何联系吗？

Do you have any contact with your dad right now in prison?

所以我无法和他通话。

So so I can't speak to him.

我无法回去见他，但我仍然可以给他写信。

I can't go back and see him, but I can still write him letters.

他给你写信吗？

He sends you letters?

他给我写信，我也给他回信。

He sends me letters, and I I send letters back.

他在信里有没有跟你说过什么可以跟我们分享的内容？

Is there anything he said to you in in a letter that that you can share with us?

说实话，我们主要就是聊聊我生活中的事、家庭情况，还有他目前在做什么。

To be honest, we just talk about, you know, what's happening in my life, family, you know, what he's doing at the moment.