直面中国

《纽约时报》观点频道的《观点》播客，为您带来一系列对话与新思想，汇集我们作家和专栏作者的声音。

The Opinions Podcast from New York Times Opinion, bringing you a mix of conversations and new ideas, featuring the voices of our writers and columnists.

在我看来，国际关系中最被低估的力量其实是愚蠢。

To me, the single most underestimated force in international relations is actually stupidity.

包括贾梅尔·布瓦。

Including Jamel Bouie.

受托人麦克米伦·科托姆。

Trustee McMillan Cottom.

米歇尔·戈德堡。

Michelle Goldberg.

托马斯·弗里德曼。

Thomas Friedman.

还有更多。

And many more.

在您收听播客的任何平台都能找到这些观点内容。

Find the opinions wherever you get your podcasts.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

今天，与中国的合作一直是美国外交政策半个多世纪以来的支柱。

Today, a cooperative relationship with China has been a pillar of United States foreign policy for more than half a century.

爱德华·王解释了特朗普政府为何认为是时候做出改变了。

Edward Wong on why the Trump administration believes it's time for a change.

今天是7月29日，星期三。

It's Wednesday, July 29.

爱德华，你能告诉我上周在休斯顿发生了什么吗？

Edward, can you tell me what happened in Houston last week?

当然。

Sure.

我们最早在周二下午左右得到消息，称休斯顿的中国领事馆出了问题，美国官员已通知中国驻美大使，他有三天时间关闭领事馆，而那里的员工则有三十天时间离开美国。

We first got a tip that something was up with the Chinese council in Houston around Tuesday afternoon or so, that the Chinese ambassador to The US had been told by American officials that he had three days to shut down the consulate and that the employees there had thirty days to then leave the country.

我和一位同事开始跟进这个线索，但还无法完全确认，不足以发表报道。

And a colleague and I started chasing this tip, but we couldn't quite nail it down to publish a story.

现在十点，突发新闻。

Right now at ten, breaking

新闻。

news.

休斯顿消防员和警察正在蒙特罗斯的中国领事馆响应火灾报告。

Houston firefighters and police responding to the Chinese consulate in Montrose after reports of a fire.

救援人员被召至该建筑。

Crews were called to the building

蒙特罗斯鹦鹉大道大约在早上8点22分。

of Montrose Parrot about 08:22.

晚上，我开始看到一些视频，显示人们在金属桶里焚烧物品。

In the evening, I started seeing these videos of people burning things in metal barrels, in open metal barrels.

还有视频显示消防车和警车亮着警灯，包围着领事馆。

And there was video of fire trucks and police cars surrounding the council with their lights on.

所以这场景相当戏剧性。

So it's quite a dramatic scene.

当地媒体报道称，有文件似乎正在那栋大楼的庭院里被焚烧。

And local media were reporting that documents appeared to be being burned in the courtyard of that building.

对于国家安全和外交政策领域的人来说，当你看到有人在外交使团大量焚烧文件或纸张时，通常会假设他们即将撤离使团。

You know, for people in the national security world and the foreign policy world, when you see people burning lots of documents or papers at a diplomatic mission, the assumption is that they're about to clear out of the mission.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以当我看到那些视频时，我意识到我们之前得到的线索——中国驻休斯顿总领事馆被要求在三天内关闭——确实是真的。

So when I saw those videos, I realized that the tip we had gotten that the Chinese ambassador had been told to shut down the Houston consulate within three days was indeed true.

在

On

7月21日，美国突然要求中国关闭其在休斯顿的总领事馆。

July 21, The US abruptly asked China to close its consulate in Houston.

数小时内，中国外交部在北京确认了这一消息。

And within hours, the Chinese foreign ministry confirmed that in Beijing.

我们敦促美国立即撤销这一错误决定。

We urge The US to reverse this incorrect decision immediately.

否则，中国必将采取必要的正当措施。

Otherwise, China will definitely take necessary legitimate actions.

那么，美国为何要采取如此重大的行动，将这些中国外交官赶出德克萨斯州的领事馆呢？

And why would The US take this pretty significant move of kicking these Chinese diplomats out of this consulate in Texas?

美国政府官员正式告诉我们，他们针对休斯顿领事馆，是因为该领事馆被指是美国境内经济间谍活动和商业秘密窃取的中心。

Officially, people in the American government told us that they targeted the Houston consulate because it was a hub of economic espionage and trade secrets espionage in The US.

但美国官员并未向我们提供有关中国外交官具体活动的详细证据。

But American officials haven't given us detailed evidence on the activities undertaken by the Chinese diplomats.

我们也不清楚，这些活动的范围究竟超出了全球各国使领馆普遍存在的隐蔽或间谍行为多少。

And it's not clear to us how much farther these activities go beyond the types of covert or espionage activities that take place at missions around the world, including ones run by Americans.

但从更大的格局来看，特朗普政府一些官员的主要目标之一，是逐步拆解自1971年尼克松总统开启中美关系正常化以来，美中之间逐步建立起来的各类外交与经济联系。

But in the bigger picture, a main goal of some American officials in the Trump administration is to unwind a range of diplomatic and economic ties that have built up between The US and China over the decades ever since president Nixon started the opening of China back in 1971.

因此，有一种说法是，美国一直在寻找一个理由来疏远这种关系，而间谍活动——无论真假——恰好成了这个借口。

So there's a version of this where The US was looking for a reason to unwind this relationship, and espionage, real or not, was that reason.

是的。

Right.

那么，特朗普政府为什么要拆解与中国的合作关系呢？

And why would the Trump administration wanna unwind its relationship with China?

我的意思是，中国是我们最大的贸易伙伴。

I mean, it's our single biggest trading partner.

它是一个全球超级大国。

It's a global superpower.

它还是一个核大国。

It's a nuclear power.

所以这是一个非常重大的决定。

So that's a pretty significant decision.

这确实很重要，而且政府内部有一些高级官员反对这一做法。

It is significant, and there are some senior officials in the administration who are against this.

在过去三年半的时间里，我们大致看到有两派顾问在争夺特朗普的青睐，这有助于解释为什么在这段时间内，政府对华政策会出现一些自相矛盾的倾向和举措。

Throughout the last three and a half years, we've seen, broadly speaking, two factions of advisers on China competing against each other for Trump's ear, and that helps explain some of the contradictory impulses and policies that we've seen coming out of the administration on China during this period.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

一方面，有一派主张通过贸易和国家安全问题来对抗中国。

On one side, you had the ones wanting to confront China in part over trade and also in part over national security matters.

是的。

Mhmm.

你有白宫贸易顾问彼得·纳瓦罗。

You had Peter Navarro, who's a White House trade adviser.

你怎么能和一个满口谎言的国家合作？

How do you work with a country that lies through its teeth?

他写过一本叫《中国死亡》的书。

Who wrote a book called Death by China.

对。

Right.

另一方面，你还有国务卿迈克·蓬佩奥。

And then you also had secretary of state Mike Pompeo.

他们非常想破坏我们的西方价值观，以及我们最珍视的一切。

They very much wanna undermine our western values, all the things that we hold most dear.

这些人将中国视为对美国的威胁。

And those people saw China as a threat to America.

而在更合作的一方，比如财政部长史蒂夫·姆努钦。

And then on the more cooperative side, you have, for example, treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin.

我们需要合作，以实现双方利益的最大化。

We need to work together to maximize the benefit for both sides.

那些仍然坚持自由贸易经典理念的人认为，与中国的传统关系是世界稳定的基石，这种关系多年来不仅帮助美国企业致富，也使美国消费者受益。

People who still clung to the classic notions of free trade and thought that the traditional relationship with China was a stabilizing force in the world and that this had helped American companies get wealthy over the years as well as had benefited American consumers.

爱德华，对于那些主张对抗中国的人，比如皮诺·纳瓦罗和迈克·蓬佩奥，他们为何认为中国是对美国的重大威胁，必须加以遏制？

And, Edward, when it comes to those who wanna confront China, when it comes to the Pino Navaros and the Mike Pompeos, what is their case for why China is such a threat to The US and should be reined in?

他们认为，中国对美国构成了多种战略威胁。

Well, they argue that China presents a range of strategic threats to The US.

例如，他们说，中国试图向全球推广其5G技术——下一代通信技术，这构成了安全威胁。

For example, they say that China's, attempts to export its five g technology, its next generation communications technology around the world presents a security threat.

他们声称，中国在南海最近的军事扩张及其在该海域的广泛海洋主张也是一种安全威胁，将阻碍美国在亚太地区的军事主导地位。

They say that China's recent military expansionism in the South China Sea and its vast maritime claims in that sea are also security threat, they would impede American military dominance in the Asia Pacific.

他们指出，中国试图进行经济间谍活动，并发动了大量针对美国政府及其他全球重要机构的网络攻击。

They point to attempts at economic espionage by China and a vast range of cyber attacks that have targeted the American government and other important institutions around the world.

我是否正确地认为，从

Am I right to think that from the

他的总统任期开始，对抗派就基本上占了上风？

start of his presidency, the confrontation camp more or less prevailed?

嗯，情况很复杂。

Well, it's complicated.

特朗普政府时期，美中关系遭受的第一次重大打击发生在2018年年中。

The first big blow to The US China relationship under the Trump administration was in mid twenty eighteen.

我们会有一些惊人的举措。

We're gonna have some incredible things.

我们今天刚刚宣布对华征收非常重大的关税，因为中国一直

We're just announcing very big tariffs today on China because China has been

当特朗普总统开始对中国制造的数十亿美元商品加征关税时，中国也对美国商品采取了同等报复措施。

When president Trump started putting tariffs on billions of dollars of goods made in China, China retaliated by doing the same on American goods.

这就是他们会做的事情。

So here's what they would do.

他们针对大豆、海产品等农产品。

They target farm products such as soybean cars, seafood.

然后情况便一路恶化。

And then just spiral downward from there.

医疗设备、能源产品，这会稍微晚一点开始。

Medical equipment, energy products, that would start a little bit

随着美国。

As The U.

中国贸易战升级，企业领袖们纷纷发声。

S.

中国贸易战升级，企业领袖们纷纷发声。

China trade war escalates, business leaders have been speaking up.

联邦快递首席执行官

FedEx CEO

因此，这场贸易战对美国及全球的公司都产生了巨大影响，使它们在经营方式上产生了极大的不确定性。

So the trade war had this huge impact on companies both in The US and outside of The US, and it created a lot of instability in their thinking about how to do business.

美中日益升级的贸易争端正在冲击全球投资者。

The escalating trade battle between The US and China is rocking investors around the world.

它还造成了股市的极大动荡，而特朗普对此密切关注。

It created a lot of instability in the stock markets, which Trump watches closely.

美国的一些农民，由于与中国的正常贸易被扰乱，许多人被迫破产。

And Some farmers in The USA, the disruption of normal trade with China has forced many of them to go bankrupt.

一些原本支持特朗普的重要选民群体，比如中西部的农民，已经开始遭受损失。

Important groups of voters who had supported Trump, for example, farmers in the Midwest were starting to suffer.

是的。

Mhmm.

我曾经是特朗普的选民。

I I I was a Trump voter.

我确实投了总统的票，但他显然没有兑现承诺。

I voted for the president, certainly, but he certainly hasn't come through.

他在贸易上失败了。

He's lost on trade.

他在贸易上失败了，而且在自由贸易上也失败了。

He's lost on trade and certainly free

他们看到农产品如玉米和大豆在美国中西部堆积，因为中国已对美国征收关税以反击特朗普。

They saw agricultural products like corn and soybeans piling up in the Midwest because China had imposed tariffs on their end to strike back at Trump.

所以我不会再投票给总统了。

So I won't be voting for the president again.

因此，特朗普和他的部分经济顾问——尤其是那些主张与中国加强合作的人——也开始对这些经济迹象感到担忧，同时也担心这些中西部农民的焦虑情绪，嗯。

So Trump and some of his economic advisers, especially those who were preaching more cooperation from China, started to get nervous about these economic signs that they were seeing as well as about the anxieties of these Midwestern farmers and Mhmm.

那里潜在的特朗普支持者。

Potential Trump voters there.

那么所以要怎么做

And so what do

那么，这些主张合作的人对这场贸易战并不满意，他们该怎么办呢？

they do, these cooperation camp folks who are not happy with this trade war?

在就可能的贸易战停火进行谈判时，特朗普总统多次与中国领导人通话，进行他喜欢的那种一对一交谈。

Well, as they go through negotiations for a potential truce to the trade war, president Trump talks with presidency of China several times, and they have these, like, sort of one on one conversations that Trump likes to do with leaders.

在每次交谈中，特朗普都会表现得十分亲近。

And in each of these, Trump sort of cozies up to see Mhmm.

很明显，为了达成这项贸易协议，他愿意对中国的许多严重行为视而不见。

And it's clear he's willing to sort of brush aside a lot of sort of the most egregious behaviors of China in the pursuit of this trade deal.

比如哪些行为？

Like what?

根据前国家安全顾问约翰·博尔顿的说法，在一次谈话中，特朗普鼓励习近平继续在中国西北地区建立针对穆斯林的集中营，并暗示这对他来说并不是什么大问题。

In one conversation, according to John Bolton, the former national security adviser, Trump encouraged Xi to actually continue building interment camps for Muslims in the Northwest Of China and sort of signaled that this wasn't a big issue for him.

这些是维吾尔人吗？

These are the Uighurs?

对。

Right.

这些就是维吾尔人。

These are the Uighurs.

没错。

Exactly.

在过去几年里，有一百万人或更多的人被关押在拘禁营中。

The ones a million or more held over the recent years in internment camps.

例如，在这一时期，我们看到了香港爆发了这些民主抗议活动。

And for example, we've seen these during this period, these pro democracy protests arise in Hong Kong.

尽管特朗普的国家安全顾问支持这些抗议者，但特朗普本人却在一次电话中私下告诉习近平，让他随意处理这些抗议活动。

And while Trump's national security aides are supportive of them, Trump himself tells Xi privately in a phone call that Xi should just handle those in whatever way he wants to deal with those.

特朗普自己不会对这些抗议活动发表任何言论，还会告诉他的助手们也不要公开谈论这些抗议。

And that Trump himself will not say anything about those, and he'll tell his aides not to say anything vocally about those protests either.

因此，在这场本应代表与中国对抗的贸易战中，实际上却存在着相当多的幕后合作。

So in this trade war that's supposed to represent confrontation with China, there's actually a fair amount of cooperation going on, most of it behind the scenes.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

最终，在十二月，他们达成了一项临时协议，并于次年一月正式签署。

And ultimately, in December, they reach a tentative agreement, and then they signed that in January.

我认为这给合作派的人带来了极大的解脱感。

And I think that brought a big sense of relief to the people in the cooperation camp.

他们看到这一关键经济关系重新恢复稳定，感到松了一口气。

I think they were relieved to see a sense of stability return to this key economic relationship.

然而，白宫和其他机构中的对抗派人士普遍对这项协议的结果感到失望。

Now, the confrontation people in the White House and in other agencies were generally disappointed, I think, by the outcome of the deal.

他们认为，特朗普为了仅仅争取农产品采购量的微小增长，就搁置了他们此前在政府前半段力推的强硬政策。

They felt that Trump had sidelined a lot of the hardline policies they had pushed for in the first half of the administration for the sake of just trying to get a marginal increase in agricultural purchases.

而且，其中一些人还感到愤怒。

And also there's a sense of outrage among some of them.

约翰·博尔顿最近的书中提到，特朗普寻求这种谈判停火，纯粹是为了连任目的。

And this was in John Bolton's recent book that Trump was also aiming for this negotiated truce purely for reelection purposes.

他曾在与习近平的对话中恳求她帮助自己连任，帮助他赢得选举，而最好的方式就是达成某种贸易争端的停火协议，然后带回给他的选民。

That he pleaded with Xi in a conversation that she should get help him get reelected, should help him win, and that the best way to do this was to sort of reach some sort of trucer deal in the trade war that he could then bring back to his constituents.

因此，一些国家安全人士对这种说法感到愤怒，认为特朗普只关注个人政治，而没有维护美国的国家安全利益。

And so certain national security people were outraged by the saying that Trump was focused purely on personal politics and was not looking after the national security interests of The United States.

爱德华，你到目前为止所描述的，尤其是这项贸易协议，看起来并不像一种即将被彻底撕裂和摧毁的关系。

Edward, what you're describing so far, especially this trade deal, does not seem like a relationship that is about to be fundamentally unwound and blown up.

那么，是什么导致我们从这种停火状态走向了如今休斯顿领事馆的关闭呢？

So what happens to get us from that truce to now, into the shutdown of this consulate in Houston?

改变局势的是这场起源于中国中部并蔓延至全球的疫情。

Well, what changes things is this pandemic that starts in Central China and spreads across the globe.

这使两大强国走向了更加对抗的道路。

That sets the two powers on a much more confrontational course.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是乔纳森·斯旺。

I'm Jonathan Swan.

我是《纽约时报》的白宫记者。

I'm a White House reporter for The New York Times.

我对我们的工作持一种相当务实的看法。

I have a pretty unsentimental view of what we do.

我们记者的职责是挖掘那些有权势的人不希望公开的信息，带你们进入你们原本无法进入的房间，了解塑造我们国家的一些重大决策是如何做出的，然后 painstakingly 地回访消息来源、核对公开文件，确保信息准确无误。

Our job as reporters is to dig out information that powerful people don't want published, to take you into rooms that you would not otherwise have access to, to understand how some of the big decisions shaping our country are being made, and then painstakingly to go back and check with sources, check with public documents, make sure the information is correct.

这不是你可以外包给人工智能的事情。

This is not something you can outsource to AI.

没有机器人能走进情况室，去弄清楚那里到底说了什么。

There's no robot that can go and talk to someone who is in the situation room and find out what was really said.

为了获得那些非公开的、真正原创的信息，我们需要依赖人类消息源，而这确实需要记者去完成。

In order to get actually original information that's not public that requires human sources, we actually need journalists to do that.

所以，正如你从这番长篇大论中可能已经明白的，我恳请你考虑订阅《纽约时报》。

So as you may have gathered from this long riff, I'm asking you to consider subscribing to The New York Times.

独立新闻至关重要，没有你的支持，我们根本无法继续下去。

Independent journalism is important, and without you, we simply can't do it.

我与习近平主席进行了交谈。

I spoke with president Xi.

我们谈得很愉快。

We had a great talk.

他工作非常努力。

He's working very hard.

我必须说，他真的非常、非常努力。

I have to say he's working very, very hard.

所以在病毒刚开始在全球传播的几周里，特朗普仍在公开赞扬习近平。

So in the first weeks after the virus started spreading around the globe, Trump was still praising Xi publicly.

如果你了解他一点，我认为他的状况会不错。

If you know anything about him, I think he'll be, in pretty good shape.

他们经历了一段艰难时期，但我觉得现在他们已经挺过来了。

They're, they've had a, a rough patch, and I think right now they have it.

看起来他们正越来越能控制住局势。

It looks like they're getting it under control more and more.

这发生在一月和二月，就在他们签署贸易协议之后。

This was in January and February right after they had signed the trade agreement.

所以特朗普当时仍处于一种强烈希望维持那场谈判达成的休战状态中。

So Trump was still in this mode where he wanted intensely to preserve that that negotiated truce.

但到了春天

But by the spring

我们遭到了来自中国的病毒袭击。

We got hit by the virus that came from China.

特朗普公开指责中国发生了这一切。

Trump was laying into China publicly for what had happened.

你知道，疫情已经蔓延到了美国的各个角落。

You know, the pandemic had spread into all corners of The US.

经济一片混乱。

The economy was in shambles.

特朗普看到自己连任的机会开始急剧下滑。

Trump was seeing his reelection chances starting to go down the drain.

我们继续全力以赴击败中国病毒。

And we continue our relentless effort to defeat the Chinese virus.

你为什么一直用这个词？

Why do you keep using this?

嗯，我在暗示这是种族主义的。

Well, I'm playing it's racist.

这并不是。

It's not

完全不是种族主义。

racist at all.

不是。

No.

根本不是。

Not at all.

它来自中国。

It comes from China.

这就是原因。

That's why.

它来自中国。

It comes from China.

我想准确表达。

I wanna be accurate.

因此，他的竞选策略师想出一个主意，试图将公众的注意力从特朗普在疫情中的失败转移到中国身上。

And so his campaign strategist came up with this idea that they can try and shift the conversation to China rather than having people focus on Trump's failures on the pandemic.

通过将这一切归咎于中国，他们可以赢回一些特朗普正在失去的选票。

And that by blaming China for all of this, they could win back some of the votes that Trump's starting to lose.

他的几位高级顾问开始猜测，这种病毒可能起源于实验室事故。

Some of his top advisers started speculating whether the virus might have started from a lab accident.

我可以告诉你，有大量证据表明这来自

I can tell you that there is a significant amount of evidence that this came from

武汉的那家实验室。

that laboratory in Wuhan.

尽管没有任何证据支持这一点。

Even though there was no evidence for that.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

到目前为止，你有没有看到任何让你对武汉病毒研究所是该病毒源头这一点充满高度信心的证据？

Have you seen anything at this point that gives you a high degree of confidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the origin of this virus?

有。

Yes.

我有。

I have.

有。

Yes.

我有。

I have.

因此，特朗普正在大力推动将中国视为这一切的罪魁祸首。

So you have this very concerted effort by Trump to really cast China as the person or the entity to blame for all of this.

中国对武汉病毒的掩盖导致疫情在全球蔓延，引发了全球大流行。

China's cover up of the Wuhan virus allowed the disease to spread all over the world, instigating a global pandemic.

这场大流行如何融入你所描述的对抗阵营与合作阵营的熟悉框架中？

And where does the pandemic fit into the kind of now familiar outlines that you have described of the confrontation camp versus the cooperation camp.

我不得不认为，它实际上挑战了双方。

I have to imagine it kind of challenges both.

这场大流行极大地增强了政府内部鹰派的底气，让他们声称我们必须严厉打击中国，看看他们的治理不善和政治体制是如何导致我们陷入这场危机，使美国陷入自大萧条以来最严重的经济衰退。

The pandemic really empowers the hawks in the administration to say we really have to go after China, look at how their misgovernance, how their political system led us to this point, led America into an economic crisis that's been the worst since the Great Depression.

就连合作阵营的一些人也开始逐渐改变想法。

And even the people in the cooperation camp are starting to change their minds a bit.

当你面对席卷一切的全球危机，而美国公民对自己的未来感到焦虑时，你很难告诉世界我们应该优先推进这份仅基于农产品采购的贸易协议。

It's hard to tell the world that we should prioritize this trade agreement that just rests on some agriculture purchases when you've got this global crisis enveloping everything and when American citizens are anxious about their future.

中国如何回应特朗普及其顾问的这些攻击？

And how does China respond to these attacks from Trump and from his advisers?

因此，我们今年春天听到的是中国官员谴责美国。

So what we're hearing this spring is Chinese officials denouncing The U.

美国

S.

针对所有这些攻击。

For all of these attacks.

他们还指出，中国体系实际上比美国体系更好地应对了病毒。

And they also point out that the Chinese system actually has handled the virus a lot better than the American system.

他们说，尽管中国中部曾出现疫情，但看看我们通过采取的措施是如何控制住它的，再看看病毒在美国是如何肆虐的。

They say, even though there might have been this outbreak in Central China, look at how we controlled it through the measures we took and look at how the virus is running rampant in The U.

美国

S.

中国还开始向其他国家提供援助。

And China also then starts to try and send out aid to other countries.

它开始向世界各地的其他国家，甚至向美国部分地区运送医疗物资、医疗设备和口罩，试图掩盖其在疫情起源问题上的责任。

It starts sending shipments of, for example, medical supplies, medical equipment, face masks to other countries around the world and even to parts of The US to try and sort of mask over its own responsibility for how the outbreak began in its country.

是的。

Mhmm.

因此，这两个大国的关系本来就很糟糕，后来变得更糟了。

So the relationship between the two powers was bad, and then it got worse.

我们收到了一些突发新闻。

And we have some breaking news coming in.

中国一年一度的全国人大会议已在北京正式开幕，预计在为期七天的会议期间将讨论针对香港的国家安全立法。

China's annual parliamentary meeting has been officially opened in Beijing, and it's expected that national security legislation for Hong Kong will be discussed during the seven day session.

在晚春时节，中国官员开始谈论他们想在香港实施的新国家安全法。

In the late spring, Chinese officials start talking about this new national security law that they wanna impose on Hong Kong.

这一新闻在全市引发了巨大震动。

Well, this piece of the news has set shock waves across the city.

报道称，北京将在香港设立一个由中央政府监管的国家安全机构，以镇压该城市的异见。

It says Beijing will set up a new national security bureau in Hong Kong supervised by the central government to crack down on dissent in the city.

这项立法遭到了全球各国政府的强烈批评，并在香港引发了新的抗议活动。

The legislation has faced sharp criticism from governments all around the world and sparked new protests in Hong Kong.

这继续了美国与香港之间恶化的恶性循环。

And so this continues the downward spiral that U.

S.

S.

中美关系一直处在...

China relations have been on.

对。

Right.

我想象那项安全法尤其让那些希望与中国对抗的人感到不安。

And I'm imagining that that security law was especially upsetting to those who want confrontation with China.

这似乎正是他们觉得如此不可接受的那种做法。

That seems to be exactly the kind of thing that they find so objectionable.

没错。

That's right.

正如你所记得的，他们对特朗普为了试图与中国达成某种贸易缓和而将香港问题搁置一旁感到非常不满。

As you recall, they were very upset at Trump for putting the Hong Kong issue on the back burner in his aim to try and reach some sort of trade truce with China.

嗯。

Mhmm.

现在他们决心推动一系列政策和行动，让共产党不仅为他们在香港的行为付出代价，也为他们在世界其他地区的行动以及在疫情中的角色付出代价。

And now they were intent on pushing forward on policies and actions that would make the Communist Party pay a price, not only for what they were doing in Hong Kong, but for their actions in other parts of the world and for their role in the pandemic.

于是，他们开始宣布一系列针对中国的措施，使两国关系降至新低。

So they started announcing a series of actions against China that really brought the relationship to a new low.

他们声称香港不再是一个自治实体，并且美国

They said that Hong Kong was no longer an autonomous entity and that The U.

S.

S.

将终止与香港的特殊关系。

Would break off its special relationship with Hong Kong.

哇。

Wow.

他们对与中国的军事机构有关的一类学生实施了签证限制。

They imposed visa restrictions on a category of students who were associated with military institutions in China.

他们表示，这些学生今后不能再前往美国。

They said that these students can no longer come to The U.

美。

S.

因为涉嫌潜在的经济间谍活动，禁止他们来美进行研究或学习。

To do research or study because of suspicions of potential economic espionage.

他们甚至在内部提出了一项提案，禁止所有九千二百万中共党员及其家属前往美国，这可能涉及数亿人。

They've even floated a proposal internally to block all 92,000,000 members of the Communist Party from traveling to The US, as well as their family members, which could encompass hundreds of millions of people.

这确实让人感觉，双方的关系已经撕下了所有伪装，而政府中那些希望彻底重塑对华关系的人，目前占据了上风。

It's really felt like a moment where the gloves have been taken off in this relationship and where the people in the administration who want to fundamentally reorient the relationship with China have the upper hand right now.

爱德华，最终来说，你所描述的这一切，以及过去几周发生的事件，是否可能是美国正确的策略？

Edward, is it possible that at the end of the day, what you're describing here and the events of the past couple of weeks, it's the right strategy for The U.

美。

S?

因为中国的行为从根本上违背了美国的价值观，尤其是在香港，尤其是在对待维吾尔人的问题上。

Because China is behaving in ways that fundamentally violate American values, especially in Hong Kong, especially with the Uighurs.

所以，无论唐纳德·特朗普最初为何开始对抗中国，这是否可能是一件好事？

And so no matter what motivates Donald Trump to begin confronting China, is that potentially a good thing

对美国来说吗？

for The United States?

支持更对抗性策略的人认为，这种对华策略早已 overdue。

Well, the people who are supportive of the more confrontational approach say that this type of strategy on China is long overdue.

现在是时候在所有这些方面真正对中国的做法进行反击了，尤其是在中国尚未超越美国的时候。

Now it's time to really push back against China on all these fronts, especially at a time when China hasn't overtaken The U.

S。

S.

但作为世界最大的经济体，它仍然是一个崛起中的强国。

Yet as the world's largest economy and it's still a rising power.

这正是我们重新定义对华对话的契机，不仅在美国，

And this is a moment when we have this opening to really reframe the conversation on China, not only in The U.

S。

S.

而是在全球范围内，动员各国共同应对中国在诸多问题上的行为。

But globally, and sort of rally countries to really confront China on a whole range of issues.

对。

Right.

所以，这基本上是我们最后的机会。

So basically, this is this is our last chance.

对。

Right.

他们觉得时间所剩无几。

They see it as time running out.

然后，另一派的人说，我们不知道这会走向何方。

Then you've got people in the other camp who say, we don't know where this will end.

这会引发关系的恶性循环，逐渐侵蚀几十年来维系两国关系稳定的外交、经济和民间联系。

This starts this downward spiral in relations that starts to erode all the diplomatic ties, economic ties, the people to people ties that have kept the relationship firm over the decades.

这是一种不太可能的关系。

A relationship that's an unlikely one.

你有一个西方民主国家和一个威权国家之间如此紧密的关系，但它们 somehow 避免了公开冲突，避免了战争。

You've got this close relationship between a western democracy and an authoritarian state, and somehow they've managed to avoid open conflict, they've managed to avoid war.

我们可能会走向哪里？

And where could we end up?

如果我们现在开始切断这些联系，世界会变成什么样？

Where could the world end up if we start breaking off those ties now?

是的。

Right.

情况可能会变得相当危险。

It could end up in a pretty dangerous place.

对。

Right.

所以我想回到我们对话的起点，爱德华，也就是美国驱逐中国驻休斯顿总领事馆这件事。

So I want to return to where we started this conversation, Edward, which is with The US kicking China out of its consulate in in Houston.

因为这看起来像是这一策略的顶点。

Because it very much seems like this is the capstone to this approach.

我想知道中国方面的反应是什么，这预示着未来几个月甚至几年，这种对抗态势将如何发展。

And I wonder what the response has been from China and what that tells us about what this dynamic of confrontation is going to start to look like over the next coming months and maybe even years.

上周五，我们看到中国宣布迫使美国关闭其在成都的领事馆，这是美国在中国西部唯一的外交机构。

Well, last Friday, we saw China announce that it was going to force The US to shut down its council in Chengdu, which is the only diplomatic mission that The US has in Western China.

这对美国来说是一个非常重要的机构，因为它让美国官员能够观察中国广大地区的情况，包括西藏——这对美国来说是一个非常重要的议题。

It's a very critical mission for The US because it allows American officials to observe what's going on in the vast reaches of that part of the country, including in Tibet, which is a very important issue for The US.

北京方面将这一行动称为对等举措。

The people in Beijing couch this as a reciprocal action.

有些人仍认为，中国本可以采取更具升级性的措施，但他们似乎愿意保持克制，看看如果特朗普在11月大选中落败，两国关系是否可能出现重启。

And some people still say that they could have taken a more escalatory step, but that they appear to be willing to hold back and see whether there might be some reset of the relationship if Trump loses the election in November.

但即使如此，我也不确定中国对美关系的整体方向会发生改变。

But even if that were the case, I'm not sure that their orientation of the relationship would change.

我们目前看到的这种针锋相对的循环或许会暂时中止，但鉴于美中两国如今在世界上的地位，以及两国根深蒂固的意识形态体系，我们似乎正走向一场长期对抗。

There might be a temporary halt to the tit for tat cycle that we're seeing, but it feels like because of where The US and China are now in the world and the entrenched ideological systems in both countries, we might be on course for a long term confrontation.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢大家。

Thank you all.

几天前，你可以听到国务卿迈克·蓬佩奥在尼克松图书馆发表的那番极为阴暗的演讲。

And you could hear that a few days ago in this very dark speech that secretary of state Mike Pompeo gave at the Nixon Library.

我们这些热爱自由的国家，必须以更具创意和坚定的方式促使中国改变，因为北京的行动威胁着我们的人民与繁荣。

We, the freedom loving nations of the world, must induce China to change in more creative and assertive ways because Beijing's actions threaten our people and our prosperity.

他勾勒出了一幅与中国的潜在冷战图景，并称中国是美国面临的最具挑战性的对手。

He laid out a vision of a potential cold war with China and said that China was the most challenging foe to The United States.

现在，秉持善意的人们可以争论，为何自由国家多年来任由这些糟糕的事情发生。

Now people of good faith can debate why free nations allowed these bad things to happen for all these years.

或许我们对中国激烈的共产主义本质过于天真，或在冷战胜利后过于自满，或被资本主义的贪婪蒙蔽，又或是被北京‘和平崛起’的说辞所欺骗。

Perhaps we were naive about China's virulent state of communism or triumphalist after our victory in the Cold War or cravenly capitalist or hoodwinked by Beijing's stock of a peaceful rise.

无论原因是什么，无论原因是什么，如今，中国在国内日益专制，在世界各地对自由也愈发敌对。

Whatever the reason whatever the reason, today, China is increasingly authoritarian at home and more aggressive in its hostility to freedom everywhere else.

特朗普总统已经说够了。

President Trump has said enough.

爱德华，非常感谢你。

Edward, thank you very much.

非常感谢，迈克尔。

Thanks a lot, Michael.

能上这个节目真的很开心。

It's been great being on the show.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

接下来是你需要了解的其他内容。

Here's what else you need to Nerdy.

巴特先生，您可以开始了。

Mister Bart, you may begin.

早上好，主席先生，乔丹首席议员。

Good morning, chairman, ranking member Jordan.

很高兴今天早上能来到这里。

I'm pleased to be here this morning.

我谨代表司法部，向你们表达敬意

On behalf of the Department of Justice, I wanna pay my respects to your

自2018年民主党掌控众议院以来，司法部长威廉·巴尔首次出席听证会，期间多次因他对从俄罗斯调查到全国范围警察抗议事件的回应而受到质询。

During his first appearance before the House since Democrats took control in 2018, Attorney General Bill Barr was repeatedly challenged over his response to everything from the Russia investigation to nationwide protests over policing.

先生，总统在选举中寻求或接受外国援助，这种情况是否恰当？

Is it ever appropriate, sir, for the president to solicit or accept foreign assistance in an election?

这取决于援助的性质。

It depends what kind of assistance.

总统或总统候选人是否在任何情况下都不应寻求或接受外国援助以影响其选举？

Is it ever appropriate for the president or presidential candidate to accept or solicit foreign assistance of any kind in his or her election?

不恰当。

No.

这是不合适的。

It's not appropriate.

好的。

Okay.

抱歉让您为这个问题如此纠结，检察长先生。

Sorry you had to struggle with that one, mister attorney general.

现在我们来看

Now let's turn to

包括华盛顿州国会议员普拉米拉·贾亚帕尔在内的几位民主党议员要求了解，为何巴尔派遣联邦特工前往俄勒冈州监控黑人的生命运动抗议，却未派往密歇根州——那里保守派人士曾抗议新冠病毒封锁令。

Several Democratic lawmakers, including representative Pramila Jayapal of Washington State, demanded to know why Barr had deployed federal agents to Oregon to monitor Black Lives Matter protests, but not to Michigan, where conservatives protested a coronavirus lockdown order.

作为司法部长、这个国家的最高执法官员，您在应对方式上存在明显的不一致。

There is a real discrepancy in how you react as the attorney general, the top cop in this country.

当白人男子带着纳粹标志、持枪冲进政府大楼时，总统无需‘调动’您，因为他们正在完成总统的个人议程。

When white men with swastikas storm a government building with guns, there is no need for the president to, quote, activate you because they're getting the president's personal agenda done.

但当黑人和有色人种抗议警察暴力、系统性种族主义以及总统对这些关键问题的漠视时，您却动用武装联邦特工和胡椒球驱散他们，因为总统将他们视为恐怖分子。

But when black people and people of color protest police brutality, systemic racism, and the president's very own lack of response to those critical issues, then you forcibly remove them with armed federal officers pepper bombs because they are considered terrorists by the president.

我理解得对吗，巴尔先生？

Did I get it right, mister Barr?

我负责联邦政府，而白宫是

I have responsibility for the federal government, and the White House is the seat of

巴尔先生，让我

the Mister Barr, let me And

周二，美国第二大教师工会——美国教师联合会宣布，将支持那些因学校不安全复课而选择罢工的成员。

on Tuesday, the nation's second largest teachers' union, the American Federation of Teachers, announced that it would support members if they choose to go on strike over unsafe school reopenings.

该工会表示，罢工应作为最后的手段，但这一声明赋予了当地教师在谈判中更大的筹码，以争取复课后教师应享有的保护措施。

The union said that strikes should be a last resort, but the announcement gives local teachers greater leverage in negotiations over the kinds of protections that teachers should have in reopened schools.

以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。

That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

I'm Michael Bilbarro.

明天见。

See you tomorrow.