自闭症谱系上的约会

你好。

Hi.

我是《纽约时报》游戏的朱丽叶，今天来和粉丝们聊聊我们的游戏。

I'm Juliette from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games.

你玩《纽约时报》游戏。

You play New York Times Games.

是的。

Yes.

每天都玩。

Every day.

这里有个叫“好友”的小标签。

There's this little tab down here called friends.

所以你可以添加你的朋友。

So you could add your friend.

这对我来说还挺新的。

That feels new to me.

是的。

It is.

有社交元素感觉真好。

It's nice to have the social aspect.

天哪。

Oh my god.

你还能看到他们所有人的成绩。

And you have all their times.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

对吧？

Right?

你可以查看拼字游戏、单词谜题和连线游戏。

You can look at spelling bee, Wordle, connections.

天哪。

Oh my god.

太棒了。

Amazing.

太喜欢了。

Love that.

我得下载这个应用。

I'll have to get the app.

《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户可全面访问我们所有的游戏和功能。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features.

立即前往 nytimes.com/games 订阅，享受特别优惠。

Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

来自《纽约时报》，我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯，这里是周日版《每日新闻》。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily on Sunday.

今天，真人秀《自闭症恋爱指南》发布了第四季，该节目记录了自闭症成年人寻找爱情的过程。

Today, the reality show Love on the Spectrum, which follows autistic adults as they search for love, has just released its fourth season.

该节目因其对神经多样性人群真实而细腻的描绘而广受赞誉，并成为Netflix上最受欢迎且出人意料的热门节目之一。

The show has largely attracted praise for its realistic, its sensitive portrayals of neurodiverse people, and it's become one of the most popular and unlikely hits on Netflix.

今天，《纽约时报》撰稿人安娜·皮尔与《爱在谱系上》的创作者和主演们进行了对话，探讨了这档节目的起源、所受的批评，以及为何能引起如此多人的共鸣。

Today, Anna Peele, a contributing writer for The Times, talked with the creator and the cast of Love on the Spectrum about the show's origin story, criticism, and why it has resonated with so many people.

今天是4月19日，星期日。

It's Sunday, April 19.

安娜·皮尔，欢迎来到《每日新闻》。

Anna Peele, welcome to The Daily.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thank you

非常感谢你让我来参加。

so much for having me.

你是一位文化记者，但同时也是真人秀专家——我倒觉得自己也算个真人秀专家，毕竟我看了那么多。

You are a culture writer, but you are also a reality TV expert, which I like to think of myself as a reality TV expert just based on how much I watch.

但你确实花了大量时间报道并深入撰写过真人秀节目。

But you have actually spent a lot of time reporting and writing extensively about reality TV.

所以，为了开启这场对话，你能否为那些还没看过这档节目的观众简要介绍一下《爱在谱系上》的基本内容？

So just to start the conversation, I wonder if you could, for people who have not seen this show, tell us a brief overview of the premise of Love on the Spectrum.

《爱在自闭症谱系上》主要记录了生活在自闭症谱系上的年轻人。

So Love on the Spectrum follows mostly young people who are on the autism spectrum.

在他们学习约会——往往是人生第一次——的过程中，节目会为他们安排配对。

While they learn to date often for the first time, the show will set them up.

他们会为他们牵线搭桥。

They'll match make them.

有时会跟随他们参加速配活动之类的场合。

Sometimes they'll follow them to speed dating events or things like that.

这个节目非常受欢迎。

It's incredibly popular.

它是Netflix上最受欢迎的节目之一，而能有一档真正具有社会责任感的节目，确实很独特，是的。

It's one of the biggest shows on Netflix, and it's so unique to have a show that is actually socially responsible Yeah.

但它同时也满足了观众对观看现实恋爱类节目的渴望。

But is also scratching the itch that people have to watch reality dating series.

这档节目之所以引人注目，原因多达一百万个，但其中至少包括一点：现实电视作为一种电视类型， arguably 是最具剥削性的。

This show is noteworthy for approximately 1,000,000 reasons, but not the least of which is that reality TV is a genre of television that is arguably the most exploitative.

许多节目的前提都是让人们为了取悦你而贬低自己。

The premise of so many shows is that people debase themselves for your amusement.

而这个节目有可能变成一场彻底的灾难。

And this show has the potential to be an absolute train wreck of a show.

对吧？

Right?

这简直是在道德的钢丝上行走。

Like, this is walking such an ethical tightrope.

你所说的正是，它不仅成功地走过了这条钢丝，还取得了商业上的成功，因为它温暖人心，让人感觉良好。

And what you're saying is that not only does it succeed in walking that tightrope, but it is a commercial success because it is heartwarming, because it makes people feel good.

在其他恋爱节目中，我认为即使你声称，哦，我是为了看浪漫才看的。

With other dating series, I think that even if you were to say, oh, I'm watching for the romance.

我希望人们能走到一起。

I want people to get together.

但真正令人难忘的时刻，往往是最戏剧化、也是如你所说最具剥削性的那些片段。

The moments that are really sticky are often the most dramatic and as you said, exploitative.

人们会说，那些参加节目的人是自愿报名的。

And what people say is, oh, the people who go on those shows signed up for it.

所以他们遭遇的一切都是应得的。

So whatever happens to them, they deserve it.

我认为，人们真心希望节目中的参与者能有最好的结果。

This, I think people genuinely want the best for the people on the show.

是的。

Mhmm.

我认为，制作节目的人也希望节目中的参与者能有最好的结果。

And I think that the people who are making the show want the best for the people who are on the show.

但在制作真人秀时，情况并不总是如此。

And that's not always the case when you're producing reality television.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来谈谈这个节目是怎么诞生的。

So let's talk about how the show came to exist.

它的起源故事是怎样的呢？

What is its origin story, if you will?

如果没有一个人，《自闭症恋爱》这部剧根本不会存在。

So Love on the Spectrum wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for one person.

他的故事、他的技能，以及他走上制作《自闭症恋爱》这条非同寻常的道路，和这部剧本身成为热门一样不可思议。

His story, his skills, his very unusual path to making Love on the Spectrum are as unlikely as the show itself becoming the hit that it is.

你好，基安。

Hi, Kian.

你好。

Hi.

最近怎么样？

How's it going?

还不错。

Good.

你呢？

How are you?

还不错。

Doing well.

谢谢。

Thank you.

他的名字是基安·奥克莱里。

So his name is Kian O'Cleary.

嗨。

Hi.

他是一位澳大利亚纪录片导演，刚入行时曾参与制作大型卖座电影。

He's an Australian documentarian, and he got his start in the industry working on huge blockbuster films.

我拍的第一部电影，是的。

My first job in film Yeah.

是那部《白鲸记》吗？还是你想听我讲训猫的那个？

Was oh, the Moby Dick one, or do you want me to talk about the cat training one?

他最早的工作之一是担任《小猪宝贝》续集的助理驯猫师。

One of his first jobs was as an assistant cat wrangler working on the Babe sequel.

我们当时有八九个人在猫部门工作，养了110只猫。

We had, I think, eight or nine of us working in the cat department, and we had a 110 cats.

所以工作量很大。

So it was a lot

不只是一个猫驯养员。

to be Not just a cat wrangler.

只是一个助理猫驯养员。

An assistant cat wrangler.

不是的。

No.

在猫驯养行业里，你得一步步往上爬。

You gotta work your way up in the cat wrangling business.

我后来继续在大制作电影里担任制片助理或导演助理之类的角色。

I mean, I just kept then getting roles on big films as, you know, a production runner or a director's assistant.

所有这些工作都挺琐碎的，我想用这个词来形容比较合适。

All quite sort of, I guess, the word is menial.

对吧？

Right?

就是大电影里那些非创意的职位。

Like, non non creative roles on big films.

他参与过《黑客帝国》。

He worked on The Matrix.

他参与过《撒哈拉》。

He worked on Siriana.

他参与过《诺丁山》。

He was on Notting Hill.

那时候，我想，我想要拍电影，故事片。

At that point, I wanted to I thought I wanted to make films, feature films.

你知道的？

You know?

基安告诉我，那时他正在认真思考自己在行业里想做什么，而这很大程度上取决于他真正擅长什么。

Kian told me that at that point in his life, he was really figuring out what he wanted to do in the industry, which relied a lot upon what he would actually be good at.

我其实是个非常自我批评的人。

I'm actually a very self critical person.

如果你想拍一部电影，你就得写剧本。

And if you wanna make a feature, you need to write a script.

每当我尝试开始写，都会对自己讨厌到极点，不得不放弃，这有点让人难过。

Whenever I tried and started, I would just hate myself so much I had to stop, which is kinda sad.

但这就是事实的真相。

But that that's the kind of truth of it.

他直到在拍摄巴兹·鲁赫曼的电影《澳大利亚》时意外获得了一个角色，才真正弄清楚了这一点。

And he didn't really figure that out until he got this unexpected role while working on Baz Luhrmann's film Australia.

我当时是巴兹·鲁赫曼的司机。

I was Baz Luhrmann's driver.

所以 again，我并没有做任何有创意的事，但你知道，我算是处在事情的核心位置，巴兹。

So again, I'm not doing anything creative, but, you know, I'm sort of at the hub of things, you know, Baz

他在拍这部电影期间有很多空闲时间，于是顺手拿了一台备用摄像机，开始拍摄幕后花絮，巴兹看到后非常喜欢。

He had a lot of downtime while working on the movie, and he wound up picking up a spare video camera, and he just started shooting behind the scenes footage, which Baz saw and loved.

巴兹曾经对我说，你就像个隐形人一样，我觉得这其实是个很美好的评价。

Baz used to say to me, it's like you're invisible, which I thought was actually a really nice thing.

他这么说其实是夸我，因为我能非常贴近地观察他和演员们在片场的工作，摄像机在拍摄，而人们甚至根本注意不到我。

And he would meant it as a compliment that, you know, I was able to get really close in on, you know, him working with the actors on these sets with a camera filming, and kind of people wouldn't really even notice me.

因此，我得以捕捉到这些非常精彩、私密的镜头。

And so I was able to capture this really great, intimate footage.

于是他们最终把这段素材剪辑在一起。

So they wound up cutting it together.

电影的一位剪辑师帮助了他。

An editor on the film helped him.

然后基恩用这些素材实现了职业生涯的重大转型，进入了真人秀领域。

And then Kean used that footage to make a big career pivot into reality television.

所以他后来参与了《舞动奇迹澳大利亚版》这类节目。

So he was working on shows like Dancing With The Stars Australia.

他还参加了《澳大利亚先婚后爱》。

He was on Married At First Sight Australia.

然后有一档节目对他的职业道路产生了极其重要的影响。

And then there was one show that wound up being incredibly important in his career path.

农夫找妻子。

Farmer wants a wife.

我当时在制作《农夫找妻子》的某一季，我们有一位农夫，还有三位喜欢他的女士。

So I was working on I don't know what season it was of farmer wants a wife, and we had our farmer, and we had three ladies who were who liked him.

其中一位争夺农夫爱情的女性开始行为异常。

So one of the women who was competing for the love of a farmer started acting strangely.

基安正在制作她的节目，他发现她说话开始语无伦次。

And Kian was producing her, and he started to see that she wasn't making any sense.

我觉得她实际上正在变得精神错乱。

She I I I actually think she was actually becoming psychotic.

她的意思是，她说话时真的变得胡言乱语了吗？

Like, actually, she was speaking and, like, not being nonsensical?

是的。

Yes.

一旦情况明朗，我们就决定要解决这个问题。

So as soon as that became clear, it was, you know, let's work this out.

我们要关注她的心理健康。

Let's look after her mental health.

显然，那时我们已经不再和她一起拍摄了。

Obviously, we weren't filming at that point with her.

有一位后期制作人员观看了所有素材，看到基安是如何处理她的情况的，发现他立刻意识到她不该继续拍摄，于是把她带离了现场。

And someone working in post production was watching all the footage, saw how Kian was dealing with her and that he had immediately recognized that she shouldn't be filming, and then got her out of there.

她看到我跟这位年轻女士说话的方式，觉得她状态似乎不太好。

She saw the way I was talking to this young lady as, you know, it seemed like she wasn't doing so great.

这位制片人推荐基尔来执导这个项目，该项目提供了前所未有的进入封闭精神病病房的权限。

And this producer recommended Keele to direct this project that offered unprecedented access into a locked psychiatric ward.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

什么？

What?

我知道。

I know.

利物浦是全国最大、最繁忙的医院之一。

Liverpool is one of the biggest and busiest hospitals in the country.

我累坏了。

I'm exhausted.

它叫《改变心态》。

It's called Changing Minds.

它由澳大利亚广播公司制作。

It was produced by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

在未来三个晚上，这个系列将带我们深入其中。

Over the next three nights, this series will take us inside.

以前，我主要执导一些片段，或者某个特定角色的剧情，但这次是一部三集的纪录片系列，我负责整个项目的执导。

Previously, I directed, like, segments or, you know, a particular cast member for a show, but this was, like, one docuseries, three parts directing the whole thing.

所以，这可以说是我第一次真正意义上的导演任务。

So this was my first kind of real directing assignment in a sense.

所以这对我来说意义重大。

So it was a big deal for me.

当基安接手这个角色时，他之前从未担任过主导演。

When Kian gets into this role, he's never directed anything before, like, as a lead director.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且这还涉及巨大的社会责任。

And it's also something with a huge social responsibility.

里面有精神病患者。

There were people in psychosis.

有严重抑郁的人。

There were people with extreme depression.

我的意思是，你知道，我曾在急诊室采访过一些人，他们几个小时前刚试图自杀。

I mean, you know, I was interviewing someone several hours after they've attempted to take their own life in the emergency department.

我的意思是，这确实是一些非常沉重的内容。

I mean, it was quite actually some really quite heavy stuff.

你知道的。

You know?

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，我觉得这可能很明显，但为了明确一下，参与真人秀节目制作在我看来并不能让你直接去精神病病房开始拍摄。

I I mean, I think it's probably pretty obvious, but just to state the obvious, working on reality television does not, to me, seem like something that prepares you to just start filming in a psychiatric ward.

我认为没有任何东西能让你准备好去精神病病房开始拍摄。

I don't think anything could prepare you to start filming in a psychiatric ward.

但这一点恰好契合了基安的技能，因为他是一种不会试图发号施令的外景制片人，这在外景制片中非常罕见。

But it uniquely worked with Kian's skill set because he's the kind of field producer who is not trying to be directive, which is very unusual in field producing.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

当我拍摄《进入别墅》时，有一位曾经的外景制片人说，我们就是操纵者。

When I was reporting Enter the Villa, somebody used to be a field producer said, we are the manipulators.

操纵者。

Manipulators.

那些人是在和参赛者交谈的人。

Those are the people who are talking to the cast members.

他们试图从他们那里获取信息。

They're trying to get information from them.

他们鼓励他们表现出来。

They're encouraging them to act.

而基安则保持隐身。

And Kian is being invisible.

是的。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

他正在运用他的超能力。

He's using his superpower.

不过，关于同意权的问题，我可以想象，这可能是他在节目中需要应对的最棘手的问题之一。

The issue of consent though, I can imagine that that was probably one of the biggest, thorniest issues in everything he had to navigate on that show.

他是怎么处理这个问题的？

How did he approach that?

这件事处理得非常谨慎。

It was handled very sensitively.

你经常看到人们刚进病房时病得很重，但希望最终能康复出院，回到家人身边，重新恢复健康。

You would often see people come into the wards really unwell and then hopefully leaving at the end, going back to their families, being being well again.

因此，知情同意的过程涉及多次、甚至三次确认同意。

And so the consent process involved people double, triple consenting.

他通常会事先争取同意，但很多人当时正处于精神病状态。

He would try and get consent before, but often people were in psychosis.

如果他们有家人，他会先和家人沟通，然后在他们脱离精神病状态后再与他们本人交谈。

He would talk to their family members if they had them, and then he would speak with them after they were out of psychosis.

是的。

Mhmm.

但他们没有看过拍摄的素材。

But they didn't get to see the footage.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以他们必须信任基安，而且当他们病得很严重、甚至被住院时，也必须对自己有信心。

So they had to trust Kian And also you have to to themselves out there when they're, like, really, really unwell to the point where they had been hospitalized.

所以我们失去了很多故事。

And so we lost a lot of stories.

人们会说，比如，我真的不希望你使用那段我告诉你我是弗拉基米尔·普京或我是耶稣基督的影像，类似的情况还有很多。

People, you know, like, actually, I don't want you using that footage of me telling you I was Vladimir Putin or that I was Jesus Christ or there was a lot

而且，他们为什么要允许自己以这种方式被曝光呢？

of And what was the argument for why they should allow themselves to be exposed in this way?

因为如果人们看不到，就不会理解。

Because people don't understand if they don't see.

基安相信，让公众看到那些社会认为没有未来的人，看到他们在接受治疗并得到妥善照顾后能够康复，是极其重要的。

Kian believed that it was really important for the public to see people who society might believe don't have a future, but see them when they do get treatment and when they are properly cared for, that they can get better.

这听起来确实会对他这样身份的人产生深刻影响。

That sounds like something that would have made quite an impression on a person in his position.

但他是怎么从那里走到《自闭症恋爱》的呢？

But how does he get from there to Love on the Spectrum?

是的。

Yeah.

在改变人们的想法和《自闭症恋爱》之间，还有一小步。

So there was one more step in between changing minds and Love on the Spectrum.

你觉得自己申请过多少份工作？

How many jobs would you say you've applied for?

哦，到目前为止我们已经申请了数百份了。

Oh, we're in the hundreds at this point.

他与制作《改变观念》的同一团队联合制作了这部名为《可雇佣的我》的节目。

He executive produced this show called Employable Me with the same team who did Changing Minds.

这是一部关于残障人士寻找有意义工作的纪录片系列。

It was a documentary series about people with disabilities who were looking for meaningful employment.

我是罗文。

I'm Rowan.

我21岁，患有自闭症。

I'm 21, and I have autism.

告诉我，罗文，你为什么想要一份工作？

Tell me, why do you want a job, Rowan?

想要一份工作

Want a job

基安在《可雇佣的我》中合作的许多人患有自闭症谱系障碍。

And many of the people who Kian wound up working with unemployable me had autism spectrum disorder.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们制作的这部系列片是关于人们找工作，但我们经常听到人们渴望找到爱情，而这方面却没有任何支持。

The series we were making was about people looking for a job, but we did hear very often about people's want and desire to find love, and there wasn't any support in that area.

他非常欣赏他们的真诚，他们毫无保留的表达方式，以及他们敢于说出许多人都在想或感受到的事情。

And he just loved how honest they were, how unfiltered they could be, how they might say things that so many of us are thinking or feeling.

我一直想制作一档约会节目，让它真正真实、坦诚，不一定要有竞赛节目那种花里胡哨的元素。

I'd always wanted to make a dating show that felt really real and kind of just truthful and honest and didn't necessarily have all the bells and whistles of a competition.

因此，基安想制作一档真实、坦率的恋爱节目。

And so Kian wanted to make an honest unfiltered dating show.

所以，我想这就是这个想法的雏形：嘿。

And so that was, I guess, the kernel of the idea was, hey.

有一群人正在寻找爱情。

There's this population of people who are wanting love.

也许这可以成为一个很棒的纪录片系列，讲述这些故事，并帮助人们相互找到对方。

Maybe this would make for a great doc series, telling these stories and kinda helping people find each other.

于是他们向澳大利亚广播公司提出了这个提案，对方批准了。

And so they pitched it to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, and they greenlit it.

既然已经获得批准，最大的问题就是：基安该如何制作这档节目？

So now that it's green lit, the big question is, how does Kian make this show?

我也有同样的疑问，我们将在广告后讨论这个问题。

I have the exact same question, and we will talk about that after the break.

我是安娜·马丁，《现代爱情》播客的主持人。

I'm Anna Martin, the host of the Modern Love Podcast.

在每一集中，我们都会窥探一个人生活中私密的角落，了解爱对他们意味着什么。

In every episode, we peek into an intimate corner of someone's life and learn about what love means to them.

与一个人相伴三十五年。

Thirty five years with another person.

我从未与任何人相处过这么长的时间。

I've never spent that much time with anyone else.

所以我们俩都很快说出了‘我爱你’。

So we both kind of said I love you pretty fast.

只要他们继续跳舞，我就会一直跳下去。

As long as they keep the dance up, I'll keep the dance up.

她也有同样的感觉，一种瞬间的连接。

And she felt the same way, an instant connection.

这扇窗让我们看到真实的人如何应对各种形式的爱。

It's a window into how real people navigate all kinds of love.

我的意思是，浪漫的、家庭的、友谊的，甚至基于宠物的爱。

I mean, romantic, family, friendship, dog based.

这些都是改变人生的重要时刻、微小的喜悦和重大的领悟。

They are stories of life changing moments, small joys, big revelations.

我的建议是，如果很难，那也没关系。

My advice is that it's okay if it's hard.

你表达对孩子的爱的方式之一

A lot of the way that you manifest your love for your children

是通过烹饪。

is through cooking.

我记得当时几乎带着敬畏看着他们，心想：哇。

And I remember just looking at them in awe almost, like, wow.

你了解这么多关于我兄弟的事，是我根本无法想象的。

You know so much that I couldn't even dream of knowing about my brother.

你可以在任何获取播客的地方收听《现代爱情》。

You can listen to Modern Love wherever you get your podcasts.

好的。

Okay.

所以，安娜，在基安获得绿灯后，他显然需要想办法实际制作这个节目。

So Anna, after Kian gets the green light, he obviously has to figure out how to actually go make the show.

跟我们说说这个过程吧。

Tell us about the process.

所以他开始像制作《可雇佣的我》那样进行选角。

So he started casting the same way that he was casting Employable Me.

我们开始向所有之前合作过的各类团体和组织传达消息，确实存在一些犹豫。

We started to put the word out with all the kind of various groups and orgs that we had already worked with, and there was definitely hesitation.

有

There

但与《可雇佣的我》从一开始就获得大量支持不同，这次有些怀疑，因为这是一档真人恋爱节目。

was But unlike Employable Me, which had a lot of buy in from the beginning, there was some skepticism because it's a reality dating series.

我想，是因为目前一些真人恋爱类节目未必都积极正面，参与这些节目的人有时形象不佳，所以大家对我们如何讲述这些故事存有疑虑。

I guess it's in that some shows out there that are in the reality dating space aren't necessarily the most positive, or people who are part of those shows can sometimes come across badly, and I guess there was skepticism of how we were gonna tell the stories.

他们提出了和任何人一样的问题：这会不会是剥削性的？

They had the same questions that anybody would have, which is, is this going to be exploitative?

这个节目是为了让神经正常的人围观自闭症人士吗？

Is this going to be for neurotypical people to gawk at people with autism?

但基安向他们解释说，不是这样的。

But Kian explained to them, no.

我们希望这个节目能吸引多元化的观众。

We want this to be for a diverse audience.

我们想展现自闭症谱系的多样性。

We wanna show the diversity of the autism spectrum.

我们希望这是一档充满同理心、支持性和充满善意的节目。

We want this to be an empathic, supportive, good hearted show.

在获得自闭症群体的认可之后，他当然还需要获得参与者家属的支持。

And then after he got the buy in from the autism groups, of course, he had to get the buy in from the participants' families.

是的。

Right.

归根结底，人们只是信任基汉来讲述这个故事。

And basically, it just came down to people trusted Keehan to be the one to tell the story.

这让我觉得简直是一项了不起的成就，因为坦白说，这位曾参与制作《与星共舞》的人，究竟是如何说服人们，让他制作出唯一一个不利用参与者的真人恋爱节目呢？

Which strikes me as really kind of a feat, because just to put it bluntly, how on earth does this man who has worked on shows like Dancing with the Stars convince people that he is going to make, what, the only reality dating show that doesn't actually exploit people?

有趣的是，当你和基安交谈时，你会感受到他的温柔，以及他对自己并非无所不知的坦诚，我认为这正是他们说服人们参与节目的方式。

Well, what's interesting is that I think when you talk to Kian, you just see how gentle he is and how much he acknowledges that he doesn't know everything, which I think is how they kind of sell people to get on these shows.

但他谈到，他希望与这些人一同踏上这段旅程，并讲述他们各自的故事。

But he talks about how he wants to go on the journey with these people, and he wants to tell their individual stories.

这些故事关乎寻找爱情，但也关乎家庭之爱。

And those stories are about finding love, but it's also about familial love.

还关乎勇敢展现自我、尝试新事物，以及在克服不适、学习新事物的过程中获得的喜悦。

It's also about putting yourself out there and trying new things, and the joy of kind of working through discomfort and learning something new.

他基本上做了经典新闻报道中常见的事：真诚地让人相信，你真的想讲述他们的故事。

He did basically the classic journalistic thing of convincing somebody earnestly that you really want to tell their story.

你并不是想利用他们、剥削他们或羞辱他们。

You are not trying to use them or exploit them or humiliate them.

是的。

Yeah.

你能给我们举一个能很好体现这一点的例子吗？

Is there an example that really illustrates this that you could give us?

在澳大利亚播出两季后，Netflix——这家平台曾播出澳大利亚版本——委托制作了美国版。

So after two seasons in Australia, Netflix, which had aired the Australian version on the platform, commissioned an American version.

因此，基尔最早考虑选中的候选人之一就是艾比，她后来成为节目中最受欢迎的嘉宾之一，我实际上在二月专程前往洛杉矶与她见面。

And so one of the first people who Keele considered casting was Abby, who became one of the most beloved cast members on the show and who I actually traveled to LA to speak with in February.

所以我现在开始录音了。

So I'm recording.

这样可以吗？

Is that alright?

嗯。

Mhmm.

基安最早是在2020年，看到艾比为自闭症人士举办的一场艺术活动后，开始与她接触的。

Kian first started talking to Abby back in 2020 after seeing her perform an arts event for people with autism.

你还记得当时你在和他说话，而他正通过Zoom和另一位女士交谈吗？

Do you remember that you were talking and he was on Zoom with another lady?

我们坐在桌子旁。

We were sitting in the desk.

我说了什么？

What did I say?

他问你是否想约会，找男朋友。

He was asking if you wanted to date and have a boyfriend.

他开始和她妈妈讨论是否让Abby参加节目，因为她的妈妈需要同意。

And he started talking to her mom about whether she wanted Abby to go on the show because her mom had to consent for Abby.

Abby真的无法为自己争取这些事情。

Abby can't advocate for these kinds of things, really.

我的意思是，她能告诉我‘是’或‘不是’，但其中的细微差别或更深层的含义，她有时难以理解或表达。

I mean, she can tell me yes and no, but the nuances or the deeper meanings are sometimes hard for her to process or express.

她已经看过《恋爱的光谱》澳大利亚版。

She had already seen Love on the Spectrum Australia.

她觉得这是一档非常积极、美好的节目。

She thought it was a really positive, wonderful show.

我感到担心，于是对基安说：我非常喜欢你们的节目，但我觉得艾比并不适合这个节目。

I was concerned, and I said to Kian, I love your show, but I don't think Abby's right for it.

我说她但是

And I said she But

艾比有语言处理障碍，她不会像《爱在光谱澳大利亚》中那些出色的参与者那样自如地表达。

Abby has language processing issues, and she was like, she's not gonna be verbal in the same way that the really wonderful Love on the Spectrum Australia cast members had.

基安对我说，我们希望展现光谱更多的多样性，光谱的多样性。

Kian said to me, we want more diversity of the spectrum, of the spectrum.

他说，想讲述她的故事。

And and he said, want to tell her story.

就是那一刻，我感到足够安心，让她能够参与进来。

And that's when I felt safe enough for her to jump in.

于是基安说，不。

And so Kian said, no.

我们想展示艾比和艾比的故事。

We wanna show Abby and Abby's story.

因此，Abby有可能找到爱情，人们也能理解她的女儿——这正是她所渴望的，再加上对Kian的信任，让她最终答应了。

And so the combination of Abby potentially finding love and people understanding her daughter, which is really all she wanted, And the trust in Kian just made her say yes.

她答应之后发生了什么？

So what happened after she said yes?

下一步是什么？

What was the next step?

下一步是Kian前往洛杉矶，与Abby和Christine一起拍摄。

So the next step was Kian going to Los Angeles to film with Abby and Christine.

第一天的拍摄并不顺利。

And the first day just didn't go well.

Abby，关于我们在你卧室拍摄时的事，你来讲，还是我来讲？

Abby, can I tell the story about being in your bedroom when we were shooting, or do you wanna tell it?

我们可以一起讲。

We can tell it together.

好的。

Okay.

你来说吧

Why don't you

所以Abby坐在那里。

So Abby was sitting there.

这是一场坐下来进行的访谈。

It's a sit down interview.

每个演员每季只做一次这样的访谈。

They only do one with each cast member every season.

拍摄的第一天。

First day of shooting.

拍摄的第一天。

First day of shooting.

我当时在自己的卧室里，完全走神了，因为

I was in my bedroom, in my room, and I was completely zoned out because

而Abby根本不想拍。

And Abby just didn't wanna do it.

她一直在打哈欠。

She was yawning.

她问能不能离开，当然，她有这个自由。

She was asking if she could leave, which, of course, she was free to.

他们已经拍了六十秒了。

It they've been shooting for sixty seconds.

我当然不在现场，但我能听到她。

And I I obviously, I wasn't in the room, but I could hear her.

是的。

Mhmm.

我在另一个房间开始哭了，

And I started to cry in the other room,

我想，我做了什么，让她陷入这种连话都说不出来的境地？

I thought, what have I done for her to put her in a situation where she can't verbalize.

克里斯汀在另一个房间听着，哭着想，我让女儿陷入了什么境地？

Christine is in the other room listening, crying, thinking, what did I get my daughter into?

我为什么让她陷入一种无法表达自己的境地？

Why did I put her into a situation where she's not able to communicate?

所以她以为这件事结束了。

And so she thought that this was over.

一周后，他们打电话回来，说想再回来拍摄阿比，就在家里拍她走来走去、做她平常做的事。

And a week later, they called back and said, we wanna come back and film Abby just at home walking around doing her thing.

我们只是跟着她。

We're just gonna follow her.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时就想，真的吗？

And I was kinda like, seriously?

但第二天，基尔回来了，他对阿比说：你就做你平时会做的事吧。

But the next day, Keele came back and he was like, Abby, just go do whatever you would normally be doing.

于是他和摄影师退到一旁，只是静静观察。

So he and then the cinematographer just hung back, and they just observed.

阿比展现了真实的自己。

Abby was her true self.

是的。

Mhmm.

阿比在模仿《海底总动员》里布鲁斯鲨鱼的口音，是的。

Abby was doing impressions of Bruce the shark from Finding Nemo Mhmm.

因为他有澳大利亚口音，嗯。

Because he has an Australian accent Uh-huh.

就像基安那样。

Like Kian.

基安说：‘你是在取笑我和我的口音吗？’

And Kian said, are you making fun of me and my accent?

她回答：‘是的。’

And she said, yes.

有趣的是，不仅这对节目有效，阿比和克里斯汀也发现，当阿比在活动时，她说话和沟通的能力要强得多。

And what's interesting is not just that it worked for the show, but that Abby and Christine learned that Abby is much better at talking and communicating when she's in movement.

那是你第一次了解到这一点吗？

Was that the first time you learned that?

还是你之前就知道了，只是没有？

Or is that something you knew from before and then you just No.

那是我第一次知道。

I that's the first time I knew.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

确实如此。

It really was.

那是其中一个时刻，一种顿悟：作为她的主要照顾者，我怎么会忽略了这一点？

It was one of those moments, a cathartic moment of, like, how did I, her primary caregiver, miss that?

是的。

Yeah.

而这个节目教会了我这一点。

And the show taught me that.

我没想过会这样

I didn't think it would be

所以很明显，基安正在帮助那些与你交谈过的人感受到被理解。

So clearly, it sounds like Kian is helping some of these people who have talked to you feel seen.

他让他们感到安心。

He's making them feel comfortable.

他也在安抚他们的家人。

He's reassuring their families.

但我相信，人们也一定会问，后期制作会发生什么？

But I'm sure there's also this question of, like, what happens in postproduction.

对吧？

Right?

比如，素材会怎么处理？如果有些内容让参与者觉得在电视上播出不舒服，该怎么办？

Like, what what happens to the footage, and what happens if there is material that, for example, the participants might feel uncomfortable having shown on television.

对吧？

Right?

他们没有最终剪辑权。

Like, they don't have final cut.

对吧？

Right?

他们不能要求删掉这些内容。

They can't demand that stuff be excised.

那这种情况是怎么处理的？

So how is that handled?

就像《改变思维》中的人们在播出前看不到素材一样，这个节目中的任何人都不能在Netflix首播前看到节目内容。

Well, the same way that people in Changing Minds didn't get to see the footage before it aired, nobody on the show gets to see the show before it premieres on Netflix.

所以这个过程从他们实际拍摄时就开始了。

And so it's a process that starts while they're actually filming.

当基安在跟进、确保他们感到舒适、确保他们状态良好时。

When Kian's checking in, when Kian's making sure they're comfortable, when Kian's making sure that they're okay.

甚至在他们到达之前，就已经在确保满足每个人的必要需求了。

Even before they get there, they're making sure that any accommodations that people need are happening.