白宫拆除工程

我是《Serial》节目的主持人莎拉·科尼格。我们推出了一档新节目，名为《预防者》。讲述的是宾夕法尼亚东部发生的一桩怪事。有父母声称他们带孩子去医院就诊，结果被迫独自离开。

This is Sarah Koenig, host of Serial. We have a new show. It's called The Preventionist. It's about something strange that happened in Eastern Pennsylvania. Parents claiming they'd walked into a hospital to get medical care for their children and then were forced to leave without them.

为什么这些父母突然失去了孩子的监护权？由Serial Productions和《纽约时报》联合制作，《预防者》现已上线。符合条件的《纽约时报》订阅用户可立即在Apple Podcasts和Spotify收听，请前往订阅，或于10月30日起在全平台收听。

Why were these parents suddenly losing custody of their kids? From Serial Productions and The New York Times, it's The Preventionist. Eligible Time subscribers can listen right now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, so head there to subscribe, or listen anywhere October 30.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，您正在收听的是《每日播报》。周四，特朗普政府完成了对白宫东翼的拆除工作，为新建总统宴会厅腾出空间。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. On Thursday, the Trump administration completed its demolition of the East Wing of the White House to make way for a new presidential ballroom.

人们确实从未见过这样的场面。我认为这将成为全球最宏伟的宴会厅之一。

Nobody's actually seen anything quite like it. I think it'll be one of the great ballrooms anywhere in the world.

如同本届政府的诸多议程一样，将这座123年历史的附属建筑夷为平地的决定引发了复杂反响。谴责声不绝于耳——'那不是属于你的建筑'、'他正在拆毁人民的房子'。

And like so much of the administration's agenda, the decision to turn the 123 year old annex into a pile of rubble has attracted a mixture of reactions. That is not your building. Condemnations. He is tearing down the house. He is tearing down the people's house.

赞誉。

Praise.

我今天看到了现场，简直太棒了。很高兴他能这么做，我就爱看这些自由派气急败坏的样子。

I saw it today. It looks fantastic. I'm delighted he's doing it, and I love seeing these liberals meltdown.

以及伦理道德问题。

And ethics concerns.

特朗普显然可以求助他的捐助者来资助拆除我们民主政府的实体建筑。

Trump can apparently hit up his donors to bankroll the demolition of the literal edifice of our democratic government.

今天，我的同事卢克·布罗德沃特将解释谁在为特朗普的最新建筑项目买单，以及为何这次拆除行动引发强烈反响。今天是10月24日星期五。卢克，当这个消息爆出时，我必须承认，我完全摸不着头脑。比如，我不明白拆除东翼或建造一个巨型宴会厅有多重要。公众的反应确实让我有些意外。

Today, my colleague Luke Broadwater explains who's paying for Donald Trump's latest construction project and why the demolition is striking a nerve. It's Friday, October 24. Luke, when this news broke, I have to confess, I did not know what to make of it. Like, I did not understand how big of a deal it was to demolish the East Wing or to build a giant ballroom. And I have felt a little bit surprised by the reaction.

我很好奇你是否也有同感。

I'm curious if you did also.

确实。这个故事在某种程度上来得有些突然。我们知道特朗普想建造一个气派的宴会厅，他还展示过效果图。我们预计迟早会有动作，但他曾明确表示不会改动现有结构，只会在东翼基础上扩建。

Yeah. I mean, this story, in some ways, sort of came out of nowhere. I mean, we knew that Donald Trump wanted to build a big impressive ballroom, and he had sort of waved around pictures of what it might look like. And we knew at some point that was going to happen. But what he had said was that the existing structure wouldn't be touched, that it was gonna be an addition that would just bump out the East Wing and build in addition to what was already there.

所以当挖掘机开始撞击东翼并拆除时，所有人都震惊了。这相当于白宫多年来扩建的整个侧翼在毫无预警的情况下被彻底拆毁。历史学家纷纷抗议，古建保护人士直呼违规，民主党人更是怒不可遏——伊丽莎白·沃伦甚至称这是非法行为。

And so when excavators started crashing into the East Wing and and tearing it apart, that really struck everybody by surprise. I mean, here was essentially a whole wing that's been built onto the White House over time that was being completely ripped apart with no public notice, without anybody knowing about it. And historians started speaking out against it. People who work in the sort of historic architecture space were crying foul, and, obviously, Democrats were up in arms. You know, Elizabeth Warren's calling you the illegal.

与此同时，共和党人却说这些抗议纯属小题大做。他们表示任何工程在施工初期都难免混乱，要相信过程等待成果，并强调特朗普总统是建筑大师。

At the same time, we're hearing from Republicans who are saying, all this outcry is much ado about nothing. You know, every construction project at some point doesn't look very good, right, while you're tearing things up before they're built. Mhmm. And just trust the process and wait till the end. President Trump is the master builder.

你们民主党人就是爱挑刺。我们听到很多争论，所以想弄清事实。他们是要拆除整个东翼，还是保留部分结构？这个计划到底是什么，为什么没人被告知？为此我去了白宫，想向幕后人员要个说法。

You Democrats are just looking for anything to criticize. We we we were hearing a lot of back and forth, and so we wanted to find out what the facts are. Were they taking down the entire East Wing, or are they gonna leave the a little bit of it up? Like, what what was the plan here, and why hadn't anybody been told about it? And so I went down to the White House to try to get some answers from the people behind this.

好吧，说到事实，这个项目具体是什么？它是怎么来的？

Okay. So speaking of the facts, what is this project exactly? Where did this come from?

没错。特朗普总统总在寻找改进白宫的机会。他正处于第二任期，希望留下政治遗产。他已经改造了原来的玫瑰园，现在那里被称为玫瑰园俱乐部。

Right. So president Trump, he always is looking around the White House looking for things to improve. He's in his second term. He's looking to leave a legacy. He has already renovated what used to be the Rose Garden and turned that into what they're calling the rose garden club.

他在那里建了露台，举办晚宴、打碟和派对。

He's built a patio out there. He's hosting dinners and DJing and hosting parties there.

他打碟？

He's DJing?

是啊，这是他最爱的消遣之一。他有专属歌单，全是音乐剧金曲、怀旧老歌，比如《Gloria》。他超爱《Gloria》，也喜欢招待宾客。

Yeah. That's his like, one of his favorite things to do. He has a playlist. It's full of, like, show tunes and oldies and, you know, Gloria. He loves Gloria, and he loves to entertain and have people over.

说实话，他正努力把白宫改造成海湖庄园的样子。椭圆形办公室就添加了大量金色元素。现在他觉得常用作晚宴场地的东厅太小了，这次改造是最新举措。

And he honestly, he's trying to make the White House as much like Mar A Lago as possible. He's trying to leave his stamp on the White House. If you look at what's been done in the Oval Office, there's been so much gold added. And this is the latest step of that. He has felt that the East Room where they often have dinners is not big enough.

该场地目前可容纳约200至250人，而他计划将容量扩大至四倍。他想要一个能容纳约千人的场所，举办真正盛大的晚宴。他已开始考察东翼，认为东翼面积过小且不够气派。他不喜欢在举办大型派对时需搭建帐篷将宾客安排在室外的方案，渴望拥有一个豪华宴会厅，并认为白宫园区内此处是最佳选址。

It holds about 200 people, 250 people perhaps, and he wants to quadruple that essentially. He wants to have a place where you could have about a thousand people, have a really grand big dinner. And he has started looking at the East Wing, and he thinks the East Wing is too small and unimpressive in his view. He doesn't like the idea of having to put up a tent if there's going to be a big party and seat people outdoors. He wants a grand ballroom, and he thinks this is the best place on the White House campus to put it.

因此他最初提议扩建东翼以建造这个豪华宴会厅，其面积将达白宫官邸的两倍。这将是个巨大增建工程。但我们后来发现，在评估宴会厅方案过程中，特朗普总统认定扩建东翼不划算——要为此宴会厅腾出空间，必须拆除整个东翼建筑。

And so he's proposed initially building on to the East Wing to create this grand ballroom, which would be essentially about twice as big as the White House residence. So it's gonna be a huge addition. But what we didn't know is that along the way, as they started to evaluate this plan for the ballroom, president Trump made the decision that it wasn't going to be cost effective. It wasn't going to be smart to just build an addition onto the East Wing that the entire East Wing needed to be demolished to clear the way for this grand ballroom.

我们详细说说这点：具体是什么要被拆除引发了人们不满？他们到底要替换掉什么？

Well, let's talk about that because what exactly is being bulldozed that people are upset about? Like, what are they replacing?

传统上东翼是第一夫人的办公区域，设有第一夫人办公室、社交办公室以及书法家工作室，被视为白宫较柔性的组成部分。

Yeah. So, traditionally, the East Wing is the home of the first lady. That is where the first lady's offices are. That is where the social office is, the calligrapher. It's known as sort of the softer side of the White House.

这里是国宴和各类派对的策划地。虽不如西翼那样在美国传说中地位显赫，确实没有多少著名历史场景发生在东翼。

It's where state dinners are planned. It's where parties are planned. It's not as well represented in sort of American lore as, like, the West Wing. You know, there aren't that many famous scenes that have happened in the East Wing.

确实。没有哪部电视剧叫《东翼风云》。

Right. There's no TV show called the East Wing.

没错。我唯一一次进入东翼是受邀参加白宫圣诞派对时。但对工作人员而言，这座自1900年就存在的建筑承载着历史。白宫方面表示已采取措施，在东翼拆除前对其部分文物进行了转移保护。

Exactly. I mean, I've walked through it, I think, once when I was invited to a White House Christmas party. But for the people who work there, you know, the East Wing has been around since about 1900. It is a part of history. And the White House does say they have taken steps to take certain things from the East Wing and preserve them ahead of the destruction of the East Wing.

你说你去过那里，我想知道那里的状况如何。换句话说，总统认为它需要翻新，这个说法对吗？

You said you had been there, and I'm wondering what kind of condition it was in. Like, in other words, is the president right that it could use a renovation?

嗯，你看。白宫多年来一直在进行翻新。我是说，在四十年代杜鲁门翻修白宫时，它的状况糟糕到国会都介入了。他们不得不拨款，还任命了一个委员会来监督白宫的翻修工程。

Well, look. The White House has been renovated over time. I mean, you know, in the nineteen forties when Truman renovated the White House, it was in such bad shape that congress got involved. They had to appropriate money. They had to appoint a commission to oversee the renovations of the White House.

所以随着时间的推移，白宫确实需要维护，对吧？这是当然的。但当我走过那里时，它看起来并不像是结构上有缺陷、需要立即拆除的样子。至少我没有观察到这种情况。

And so over time, you know, the White House can use upkeep. Right? Of course. But it didn't appear to me when I walked through it like it was, like, structurally deficient and needed to be torn down immediately. That's not what I observed anyway.

你向我们解释过，人们对这次翻新的规模感到不满，认为它有些反常。总统在这件事上是否真的违反了任何规定？

So you've explained to us that people are upset that this renovation, at least in scope, is a little unusual. Did the president actually break any rules in in any of this?

你知道，这是个非常有趣的问题，因为很多人声称这是非法的。但这件事之所以有趣或说棘手，是因为1966年《国家历史保护法案》确实要求对可能影响历史建筑的联邦项目进行严格审查，但白宫实际上不受该法规约束。这一点白宫工作人员已经强调过。我认为更让人困惑的是，虽然我们看到了一些图纸和设计方案流出，但官方计划从未提交给本应监督此事的委员会。

You know, that's the that's a real interesting question because I think a lot of people have asserted that this is illegal. But what makes this interesting or at least somewhat tricky is that there is a National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, and that requires a strict review process on federal projects that may affect historic buildings. But the White House is actually exempt from that ordinance. And that's something the White House staff has highlighted. And I think what makes things even a little bit more confusing is that although we've seen some drawings and some designs come out, no official plans have ever been submitted to the commission that's supposed to oversee this.

所以我们还没有看到关于具体改造内容的最终方案。特朗普任命了他的私人律师来监督该委员会。他们表示拆除西翼建筑不需要提交此类计划，但会在实际动工前让我们看到方案。这确实看起来像是在挑战法律或通常允许的极限——尤其是在华盛顿特区拆除或翻修具有重要历史意义的项目时。

So we haven't seen a final plan yet of what's exactly going to be in store here. And Trump has appointed one of his personal lawyers to oversee that commission. They've said no such plan is is needed for the demolition of the Mhmm. Wing, but that we will see a plan before they start to actually build. So it does seem like they're pressing up against the limits of what's legal or what normally would be allowed when demolishing or renovating a historic project of significance in DC.

但由于法律条文的规定，白宫似乎确实可以豁免于常规的规划流程。你知道，特朗普一贯的行事作风就是雷厉风行，他在各种政策领域和行动中都迅速推进。这常常让批评者、律师、法院或国会疲于应对，而等到他们反应过来时，可能为时已晚。

But it does seem like the White House is exempt here from the normal planning process because of the way the law is written. You know? And one thing Trump has always done is that he moves very quickly, and he moves very quickly in all sorts of policy areas and all sorts of actions. And, oftentimes, that leaves his critics or lawyers or the courts or congress scrambling to try to keep up with him. And by then, it may be too late.

那栋建筑现在已成废墟。对吧？当你走到那边——嗯哼——东翼完全就是废墟。所以如果你现在想申请禁令或上法庭阻止这事，已经太迟了。

The building is now rubble. Right? When you walk down there Mhmm. The East Wing is literally rubble. And so if you now try to get an injunction or go to court to stop this, it's too late.

没错。他们能说什么？按原样重建？

Right. What are they gonna say? Build it the exact same way it was?

对。

Right.

不过从美学角度来说，据我所知他并没有提议要搞成那种粗野主义建筑风格。对吧？至少从我看到的，他承诺会保持与白宫其他部分一致的风格——不管这具体意味着什么。我只是好奇你对此怎么看，以及如何理解这种表态。

In terms of the aesthetics, though, like, he's not proposing as far as I know that it's gonna be some kind of, like, brutalist architecture. Right? He's promising to at least, from what I can see, adhere to the style, whatever that means of the rest of the White House. And I just sort of wonder what you make of that and and how you interpret that.

是的。他们说过要保持风格一致。但我认为这会是个极致奢华版的白宫风格。就像我们现在从他改造椭圆办公室的举动中看到的那样。

Yeah. They've said they're going to keep the style consistent. Now I do think it's going to be a glamour to the max version of White House style. Right. You know, as we're seeing with what he's doing with the Oval Office.

我们要把所有金色元素和奢华感都加进去。而且他承诺这个项目会在他的任期内建成——等真的建成了，未来的总统们就得忍受这个。当然未来或许有总统能下令做些低调改造，比如撤掉所有金色装饰，改成更朴素的宴会厅？也许吧，谁知道呢。

We're bringing in all the gold and all the glamour. And once this is built and he's promising that it will be built during his administration, you know, future presidents are going to have to live with this. Now could a future president go in and order it to be toned down some and order all the gold to be removed and to be, like, a more humble ballroom? Maybe. I don't know.

但他确实正以美国历史上任何总统都未曾有过的大胆方式，在白宫留下自己的印记。

But he's certainly leaving his mark on the White House in a way that is as bold as any president in US history.

你认为如果建筑师和历史学家更喜欢他的审美风格，他们还会如此不满吗？比如，如果特朗普不像你说的那样以大胆著称——有人可能称之为俗艳，你觉得他们还会对他拆除东翼并提议建造如此规模的宴会厅有这么大意见吗？

Do you think that the architects and the historians that are upset would be this upset if they liked his aesthetic better? Like, if Trump wasn't known for being so, as you put it, bold, some might call it garish. Do you think that they would have as big of an issue with him knocking down the East Wing and proposing a ballroom of this size?

我认为这绝对是个因素。如果你觉得他的设计俗气、浮夸、过度或炫耀，那确实会影响你对项目的看法，对吧？你会觉得这不能代表我们美国人的形象。我们不是那种张扬浮夸的风格。

I think that's definitely a factor. If you're looking at his designs and think that they're gaudy or showy or over the top or ostentatious, like, yeah, that's gonna affect your view of the project. Right? And you're gonna like, that that's not representative of who we are as Americans. We're not in your face showy.

我们不过分炫耀。所以我确实认为这影响了人们的看法。在某些方面，这似乎与对总统职位更谦逊的愿景有些脱节。但或许这个项目更核心的担忧是资金问题——总统如此渴望建造的新宴会厅，钱从哪里来？

We're not over the top. And so I do think that affects how people view it. It looks in some ways, like, somewhat out of step with sort of a a more humble vision of the presidency. But perhaps a more central concern about this project is the money aspect. Where is the money coming from to build this new grand ballroom that the president wants so much?

谁来支付这笔费用？这又意味着什么？

Who is paying for it, and what are the implications of that?

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

我是戴安娜·温恩，《每日播报》的制作人。我参与制作了一期关于这些复杂的全球力量如何影响一个牧场家庭的节目。我现在正在录音，会把所有内容都录下来。

I'm Diana Wynn. I'm a producer on The Daily. And I worked on an episode about how these really complicated global forces impact this one ranching family. I'm just gonna I'm recording now. I'm just gonna record everything.

我曾住在德克萨斯州最偏远的地区之一，总是听牧场主说谋生极其艰难，但我完全不懂其中的经济原理。这些是什么品种的牛？在制作这期节目时，我开始理解这个行业数十年的整合如何让生产我们食物的人举步维艰。能讲述这个关于美国乡村的故事对我很重要。《每日播报》有一群出色的制作人，他们来自世界各地，将各自的生活经历融入我们每天讲述的故事中。

I've lived in one of the most rural pockets of Texas, and I always heard ranchers say it's super hard to make a living, but I didn't really get the economics of it at all. What kind of cows are these? In making this episode, I started to understand how decades of consolidation in this industry has made it tough for the people who produce our food. It's important to me that we were able to tell this story about rural America. On The Daily, we have this amazing group of producers from all over the map who are bringing their own life experiences to the stories that we tell every day.

但这需要大量资源，我们需要您的支持以继续这项工作。您可以通过订阅《纽约时报》来帮助我们完成日常报道。谢谢。

But it takes a lot of resources, and we need your support to keep doing that work. You can help us make the daily by subscribing to The New York Times. Thank you.

那么，卢克，我们来谈谈这个项目的资金和成本问题。预算是多少？

So, Luke, let's talk about the money and the cost of this project. What is the price tag?

嗯，当特朗普总统首次宣布舞厅项目时，标价是2亿美元。但本周白宫官员表示新价格是3亿美元。

Well, when president Trump first announced the ballroom project, he put the price tag at 200,000,000. But this week, White House officials said the new price is 300,000,000.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

是啊。我猜是严重通胀吧。但他们表示已为该项目筹集了全部资金，不需要向国会申请拨款或向纳税人要钱。所有资金都将来自捐赠者，也就是特朗普总统所称的'朋友们'。

Yeah. Significant inflation, I guess. But they say they have raised all of the money for this project. They don't need to go to congress to get an appropriation to ask the taxpayers for any money. It will all be from donors, people president Trump is calling his friends.

等等，这些人是谁？这些朋友和捐赠者都是谁？

Wait. So who are these people? Who are the friends, the donors?

我们一直在向白宫询问此事。今天他们公布了一份捐赠者名单。

So we've been asking the White House about that. And today, they put out a list of donors.

你想看看这些名单上的名字吗？

You wanna read through some of these names?

当然。我是说，这名单上既有有权有势的富豪，也有实力雄厚的企业。科技公司基本都在列，几乎所有大型科技公司都上榜了。

Yeah. Sure. I mean, it's it's a mix of powerful, influential, and wealthy people and powerful, influential, and wealthy corporations. You have the tech companies on there. Almost all the big tech companies are on.

亚马逊、苹果、谷歌、微软都在。还有洛克希德·马丁这样的传统国防承包商，加密货币行业代表，黑石集团CEO苏世民等等。这些人往往既想从政府获取利益，又想维持良好关系，可能还担心特朗普政府会针对他们或他们的企业。

You have Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft. You have the traditional defense contractors like Lockheed Martin. You have cryptocurrencies. You've got, you know, Steven Schwarzman, the CEO of Blackstone. It is a combination of people who many times want things from the government or at least wanna stay on good terms with the government and perhaps also don't want the Trump administration going after them or their businesses.

说实话，在通话前我看了这份捐赠者名单。有些公司确实耳熟能详，比如你提到的那些。他们想讨好白宫的原因很明显——至少部分企业正与联邦政府有业务往来，或预期会有合作。但名单里也有不少让我完全陌生的名字，比如佩佩和艾米莉亚·凡朱尔（我没读错吧）？

You know, I actually took a look at this list of donors before you and I got on the phone, and some of the companies are recognizable, like some of the ones you mentioned. And it seems obvious why they might wanna curry favor with the White House because at least some of them have business in front of the federal government, or you can imagine that they will have business in front of the federal government. But there were also a lot of names on here that, frankly, I did not even recognize. Like, for example, who are Pepe and Emilia Fanjoule, if I'm saying that right?

据我所知，凡朱尔家族历来是共和党的大金主。不过具体到这笔捐款，我还没直接跟他们核实过。

My understanding is the Fanjoules are historically big Republican donors. But I don't know. I haven't spoken to them directly about that donation.

我的意思是，名单里有些人显得特别突兀。不知道是因为我不熟悉他们，还是说这份名单本身就像个大杂烩？

I guess what I'm just getting at is some of these people seem kind of out of left field. And I'm wondering, is that just because I'm unfamiliar with them, or did it also strike you as a little bit of a hodgepodge?

其实很多人是受邀参加为舞厅筹款的晚宴。负责整个筹款活动的是梅雷迪思·奥罗克——特朗普2024竞选团队的首席筹款人。他们直接动用了竞选团队的人脉来为这个项目筹钱。

So a lot of them were invited to a dinner to raise money for this ballroom. And the person that is in charge of all this fundraising is Meredith O'Rourke, the Trump twenty twenty four campaign's leading donor or leading fundraiser, I should say. So they brought in their campaign infrastructure to raise money for this project.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我猜他们依赖的很多都是总统竞选时通常会去募捐的那些人。

And I assume they relied on a lot of the same people they typically hit up for donations in a presidential campaign.

白宫翻修通常是这样由私人捐赠者、公司和个人资助的吗？而且实际上还是主动募集的？

Is it typical that a White House renovation would be funded in this way by private donors, companies, and individuals, and that on top of that, was actually solicited?

传统上不是这样操作的。回顾上次由杜鲁门主持的重大翻修，那是对白宫的一次大改造。当时白宫状况很糟，必须进行大量实质性施工，但所有资金都完全通过国会拨付——经过大量议会辩论后由国会专项拨款。

It's not how things were done traditionally. If you look back at the last major renovation, which was undertaken by Harry Truman, That was a big gutting of the White House. The White House was in bad shape at that time. They had to do a lot of serious construction, but everything was done completely through congress. It was funded through a congressional appropriation after a lot of debate on the floor.

当时的方案经过公开辩论，讨论该做什么以及如何做。可以说这是个更公开透明的过程，在动工前经过充分讨论和多方意见征询，我们能清楚知道每笔资金的去向。而特朗普政府让梅雷迪思·奥罗克筹集的资金将流向名为'国家广场信托'的501(c)(3)免税实体。

The plans were laid out for debate about what should be done and how it should be done. And so it was a much more, what I would say, public process with more input and a lot of debate before anything was ever built. So we knew exactly how much money was going where. Right? In this case, the Trump administration has had Meredith O'Rourke raise money that's going to go to a five zero one c three tax exempt entity called the trust for the National Mall.

资金进入该信托基金后，他们再用这些钱进行项目。这样做导致我们无法独立核实每笔捐款的金额和捐赠者身份，确实在某种程度上遮蔽了流程透明度。不过反过来说，如果你认为纳税人的钱不该用于建造新宴会厅，或许会乐见这笔开支由私人捐赠承担。

So the money is going into that trust, and then they're using the money from that trust to do the project. What that does is it makes it so we can't independently verify how much money everyone gave and who gave, and it does shield the process, from some levels of transparency. You know, that said, on the other side, if you don't think taxpayer money should be going to build a new ballroom, maybe you're happy that it's being paid for through private donations and that, you know, taxpayer dollars aren't being used here.

好吧，但让我们认真讨论这点——说个最显而易见的：我能理解为什么人们会反对亚马逊这类现在或未来可能与政府有业务往来的公司，向看似总统个人偏好的项目捐款。这本质上就是利益冲突，问题有多严重？

Well, okay. But let's talk about this for a second because just to state something really obvious, I can understand why you might not want an Amazon or a company that might have business in front of the government now or in the future to be making donations to what appears to be the president's pet project. Right? Like, that is an inherent conflict of interest. How big of a deal is that?

这是我们一直在讨论的抗议活动的一部分吗？

Is that part of this outcry that we've been talking about?

是的，我认为是。我是说，看看。特朗普政府因其处理与企业及商业利益关系的方式面临诸多指控。你知道的，他曾在白宫为儿子加密货币公司的赞助者举办筹款晚宴。

Yeah. I think so. I mean, look. The Trump White House has faced a lot of allegations about the way it has conducted its relationships with businesses and business interests. You know, he's had this fundraising dinner at the White House for donors to his son's crypto company.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以如果你对商业利益与总统之间的亲密关系或交易存疑，这只会加剧人们对这些关系的担忧，以及是否有人试图通过捐款来获得更接近总统的机会。

So if you have questions about coziness or transactions between business interests and the president, that's only gonna raise more concerns about these relationships and whether people are trying to donate money in order to get closer access to the president.

不过你也提到了这个论点的另一面，即认为不由纳税人出资而由私人捐赠者资助或许是件好事。这个论点有多站得住脚呢？

You also mentioned the other side of this argument, though, this idea that maybe it's good that this is not being funded by taxpayers and instead by private donors. How strong of an argument is that?

根据我的收件箱来看，这确实按政治立场分化了。民主党人和不喜欢特朗普总统的人对这里发生的事相当愤怒。他们对拆除行为感到愤怒，对这种筹款方式及其绕过国会程序感到愤怒。但我收件箱里的共和党人却说这很棒。就像，更多总统应该从私营企业筹集资金来资助项目，而不是总是依赖纳税人。

You know, according to my email inbox, it's really breaking down along political lines. People who are Democrats and don't like president Trump are pretty much outraged about what's going on here. They're outraged by the demolition, and they're outraged by this fundraising practice and how it's not going through congress. But the Republicans in my inbox say this is great. Like, more presidents should raise money from private corporations to to fund things and not rely on the tax payers all the time.

他展现出干劲，展现出雄心壮志，正为美国人民调动商业人脉。所以你知道，这显然被按党派立场解读了。

He's showing hustle. He's showing ambition. He's leveraging business connections for the American people. So they you know, it's it's definitely being interpreted along partisan lines.

我之前称这是特朗普的‘心头好项目’，因为他已多次提及这个舞厅。但我怀疑称之为‘面子工程’是否公允。即便真是如此，人们不喜欢这点，或许其实也无关紧要——除非你是历史学家、总统建筑设计师或民主党人。

I referred to this earlier as a pet project of Donald Trump's because he has been talking about this ballroom for a little while now. But I wonder if it's actually fair to call it a vanity project. And even if it is, and people don't like that, maybe it actually doesn't matter all that much unless you are a historian or a presidential architect or a Democrat.

我认为确实如此，白宫每次升级改造在当时都被批评为铺张浪费、多此一举。但随着时间的推移，人们反而开始欣赏这些部分，甚至无法想象没有它们的白宫会是什么样子。

Well, what I do think is true is that every upgrade at the White House at its time was criticized as wasteful, as unnecessary, and that over time, people came to appreciate those parts of the White House and, in fact, can't even imagine the building without them anymore.

能举个例子吗？

Like, can you give us an example?

比如翻阅历史，看看历次翻修：东翼增建时，椭圆形办公室增设时。现在我们还没看到舞厅最终会变成什么样，或许要等一百年后才能知晓。

Yeah. Like, if you go through history, look at the different renovations. When the East Wing was added, when the Oval Office was added. Now we haven't seen the ballroom and how it's going to be at the end. Maybe it will be in one hundred years.

后人回望时，可能会认为这是白宫最宏伟的部分。但也可能被视为过度挥霍的象征。我们尚无法预知历史将如何评判特朗普对白宫庄园的改造，但确实存在历史评价比当代更宽容的先例。

People will look back at this and think it's the grandest, part of the White House. But also people could also look at it as a time of excess of superfluous spending. So we don't really know how history will judge president Trump's transformation of the White House property yet, but we do know that sometimes history looks back on projects more fondly than people did at the current time.

你讨论的本质上就是这个项目将留下什么遗产。我更想从更宏观的角度思考：从特朗普迄今为止对待自身遗产的态度中，是否能找到解答这个问题的线索。

What you're talking about is basically what is the legacy of this project gonna be. And I just sort of wonder more broadly if there are clues that would answer that in how Donald Trump has seemed to think about his legacy so far.

是的。我认为这个项目与特朗普总统希望在美国社会留下持久遗产的愿望密不可分。他想作为历史上最伟大的总统之一被铭记。他本人和幕僚有时会讨论将他的雕像加入总统山。他公开渴望获得诺贝尔和平奖，并对白宫进行大规模改造——无论当下是否引发争议——这将成为特朗普在美国社会留下的标志性印记。

Yeah. I think this project is completely intertwined with president Trump's desire to leave a lasting legacy on American society. He wants to be remembered as one of the great presidents in history. He sometimes talks and his staff sometimes talk about him being added to Mount Rushmore. He has openly coveted a Nobel Peace Prize and a huge renovation at the White House, whether or not it creates outrage in the current day, that will be a lasting signature of Donald Trump's on American society.

如果一百年后，人们参观白宫时会说'这是特朗普总统2025年建造的宏伟宴会厅'，这将使他在美国历史上的地位比现在更加牢固。

If in a century from now, people are going on tours of the White House and they're saying, and here is the grand ballroom that was built by president Donald J. Trump in 2025, you know, that gives him even more of a hold on American history than he does currently.

这可能正是此事触动民众神经的原因。对吧？如果你憎恨特朗普，认为他是最糟糕的总统，那么你会对他可能进行的这项庞大改造工程感到愤怒——这会让白宫部分区域变得像海湖庄园，在批评者眼中这正是他铺张浪费的象征。但如果你支持特朗普，就会觉得他确实配得上这个九万平方英尺的宴会厅，这正是他应该推进的项目。

And that's probably why this has struck such a nerve with people. Right? Like, if if you hate Donald Trump and you think he is the worst, then you are offended at the idea that he might undergo this enormous renovation project that would turn part of the White House into what looks like Mar A Lago, which is the symbol to many of his critics of his excess and gaudiness and waste. But if you love president Trump, then you are looking at this and thinking, he does deserve a 90,000 square foot ballroom. And this is exactly the type of project he should undergo.

感觉当前民众对这届总统任期的一切情绪，都投射在了这个拆建工程上。

So it feels like everybody's feelings about this presidency are projected onto this demolition and construction project right now.

政治上有种说法：最能深入人心的轶事或画面，往往是强化人们原有政治认知的内容。在此事件中，东翼被拆毁的画面——瓦砾、废墟、残骸——对许多左翼美国人而言，正是特朗普总统任期的完美隐喻。他们看着特朗普亲手拆毁历史、政府和美国的重要象征，这正是他们认为特朗普对这个国家所做之事。

You know, they say in politics that the anecdote or the image that sticks with people is the one that reinforces what they already thought about the politician. And in this case, the symbol of literally the East Wing being torn down, like rubble, demolition, debris is, to many Americans on the left, the perfect metaphor for the Trump presidency. They are watching him literally tear down history, tear down the government, and tear down an important piece of America. And that's what they think he's doing to the country.

没错。

Right.

另一方面，如果你是特朗普支持者，认为美国体制长期对你不利，你选举特朗普就是为了打破现状，重建一个更符合你心意、更体现特朗普风格的新美国，那么你对此就不会有异议。

Now on the other hand, if you are one of Trump's supporters and you kinda think America hasn't been working for you and you elected Trump to tear down some of the status quo and rebuild this new America that's more to your liking and more in the mold of president Trump, then you don't have a problem with this.

这一切也让我想到人们关于本届政府的另一个疑问：当前发生的事有多少是永久性的，会在特朗普下台后持续存在？又有多少会随着新国会或新总统上台而改变？而白宫东翼被砸毁无疑给出了一个非常明确的答案。

It also just all makes me think of this other question that people have about this administration, which is how much of what is happening is permanent and will endure after Donald Trump? And how much of it could change with a new congress or a new president. And smashing the East Wing of the White House certainly sends one very specific answer to that question.

你知道吗，瑞秋，我之前还真没从这个角度考虑过，但我觉得你确实一针见血。关键在于这种永久性。对吧？作为美国自由派，你可能想着咬牙熬过特朗普任期，赢得下次选举后一切就能恢复正常。但如果东翼变成一堆废墟，原地矗立着特朗普宴会厅，那就是对特朗普时代美国的永久提醒，它将经受时间考验且无法抹去。

You know, Rachel, I think I I actually hadn't thought about it that way, and I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's the permanency of it. Right? Like, if you're a liberal American, you're thinking you can grit your teeth through the Trump years, you can win the next election, and things can go back to normal. But if the East Wing's a bunch of rubble and there's the Trump ballroom standing in its place, that's a permanent reminder of what it was like in Trump's America, and that's gonna stand the test of time and can't be erased.

卢克，非常感谢你。

Luke, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我们稍后继续。以下是今日其他要闻：一位NBA名人堂成员兼主教练和一位迈阿密热火队资深球员，与其他30多人因涉嫌操纵比赛、赌博及黑帮活动被起诉，这桩撼动体坛的丑闻引发了人们对NBA比赛公正性的质疑。被告被指控通过向同谋提供非公开信息获利数千万美元，后者据此进行作弊投注。这些包括勒索和电信诈骗在内的指控时间跨度长达数年。

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. An NBA hall of famer and head coach and a veteran player with Miami Heat were among more than 30 people charged with crimes associated with rigging basketball games, gambling, and the mafia in a scandal that has rocked the sports world and cast doubt on the integrity of NBA games. The defendants were accused of earning tens of millions of dollars by providing nonpublic information to their coconspirators, who then placed rigged bets. The accusations, which included extortion and wire fraud, spanned years.

副总统J·D·万斯周四表示，一支尚未组建的国际安全部队将主导解除哈马斯武装的工作——这始终是达成加沙持久和平最棘手的问题之一。副总统在结束旨在巩固以哈之间脆弱停火的访问后，于以色列发表了上述讲话。万斯先生强调，哈马斯长期反对解除武装，这项工作'需要时间，且很大程度上取决于该部队的组成'。

And vice president J. D. Vance said on Thursday that an international security force, one that has yet to be formed, would take the lead on disarming Hamas, which has been one of the thorniest issues when it comes to reaching a lasting peace in Gaza. The vice president spoke from Israel at the end of a visit aimed at shoring up the fragile cease fire between Israel and Hamas. Mister Vance cautioned that disarming Hamas, which the group has long opposed, was, quote, going to take some time, and it's going to depend a lot on the composition of that force.

本期节目由亚历克斯·斯特恩、安娜·弗利和埃里克·克鲁普克制作，克里斯·哈克塞尔主编，佩奇·考特和德文·泰勒协助编辑，苏珊·李提供研究支持，音乐由玛丽安·洛萨诺和丹·鲍威尔制作，克里斯·伍德负责技术监制。以上就是《每日播报》的全部内容，我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯。

Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern, Anna Foley, and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Chris Haxel with help from Paige Cowet and Devin Taylor with research help by Susan Lee. Contains music by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams.

周一见。

See you on Monday.