爱泼斯坦的失误与被驳回的起诉书：帕姆·邦迪的垮台

你好。

Hi.

我是《纽约时报》游戏的朱丽叶，今天来和粉丝们聊聊我们的游戏。

I'm Juliette from New York Times games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games.

所以你玩《纽约时报》的游戏。

So you play New York Times games.

是的。

Yes.

你有最喜欢的吗？

Do you have a favorite?

Connections。

Connections.

它正好满足了我大脑里某种痒痒的感觉。

It just scratches an itch in my brain.

它的思维方式真的很跳出框架，

It's really out of the box thinking with

这个游戏。

that game.

我每天晚上都和我丈夫一起玩。

I play with my husband every night.

我绝不让他不带我一个人玩。

I refuse to let him play it without me.

他总是先选紫色的，而我总是拿到那些他想不到的有趣选项。

He will always get the purple first, and I always get, like, the fun ones that he doesn't think about.

我喜欢它与现实生活有联系。

I love that it's, a real life connection

是的。

Yes.

当你们玩连接游戏的时候。

While you guys play connections.

对。

Yeah.

这非常温馨。

It's very sweet.

我保证我没有。

I promise I didn't

玩过那个。

play that.

你可以在 nytimes.com/games 或我们的应用程序上玩所有《纽约时报》的游戏。

You can play all New York Times games at nytimes.com/games or on our app.

嘿。

Hey.

我是迈克尔。

It's Michael.

在今天的节目开始前，我想向你们介绍来自 Serial Productions 团队的新节目。

Before today's episode, I wanna tell you about a new show from our colleagues over at Serial Productions.

这是一个由《纽约时报》专栏作家盖森主演的五集系列，非常出色。

It's a new five part series featuring New York Times columnist, Gessen, and it's a remarkable one.

在节目中，M讲述了一个关于表亲艾伦的故事，艾伦目前因受雇杀人而入狱。

In the show, M tells a story about a cousin named Allen who is currently in prison for murder for hire.

这是一个关于家庭的故事，关于我们家族成员做坏事时我们该如何应对。

It's a story about family, about what we do when members of our family do bad things.

它关乎背叛，以及渴望了解真相的冲动。

It's about betrayal and the craving to know the truth.

它发人深省。

It's thoughtful.

它错综复杂，却又非常幽默。

It's complicated, and it's very funny.

你可以在任何收听播客的平台找到它，我们希望你能去听听。

You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts, and we hope you check it out.

这个系列叫做《傻子》。

The series is called the idiot.

好的。

Okay.

这是今天的节目。

Here's today's show.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

今天。

Today.

帕姆·邦迪如何从特朗普总统理想中的忠诚司法部长，变成一个在周四下午被他突然解雇的笨拙人物。

How Pam Bondi went from being the loyal attorney general of president Trump's dreams to a blundering figure whom he abruptly fired on Thursday afternoon.

我找到了报道邦迪即将被解雇消息的记者、白宫记者泰勒·佩杰。

I turned to the journalist who broke the story that Bondi was about to be ousted, White House reporter Tyler Pager.

今天是4月3日，星期五。

It's Friday, April 3.

好吧，泰勒，我们又来了。

Well, Tyler, here we go again.

又一个倒下了。

Another one bites the dust.

是的。

Yes.

这是特朗普总统在四周内解雇的第二位内阁成员。

A second cabinet member fired by president Trump in four weeks.

而且，可以说，这次解雇终结了一位比上一位——国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺埃姆——对总统更为重要的人物的职业生涯，因为这位是司法部长。

And, arguably, this firing ends the career of a cabinet member who is even more important to the president than the last one, Christy Noem, head of homeland security, because this is the attorney general.

这位司法部长，直到最后一刻，在我看来都是一个非常矛盾的人物：她既是你可以想象到的最绝对忠诚的追随者，却又不断让总统失望。

And this attorney general, until the very end, strikes me as a very paradoxical figure because she is simultaneously as absolutely loyal a foot soldier as you could fathom and yet somebody who keeps letting the president down.

你说得对，迈克尔。

You're absolutely right, Michael.

帕姆·邦迪一直在执行总统在第三次竞选时提出的广泛议程。

Pam Bondi was executing on a wide ranging agenda that the president outlined when he ran for president for a third time.

他希望发起一场针对政治对手的报复行动，而这一行动在很大程度上依赖于一位愿意打破数十年来司法部运作规范的司法部长——这些规范传统上要求司法部独立于白宫。

He wanted to lead a retribution campaign against his political opponents, and much of that depended on having an attorney general willing to shatter decades long norms about how a justice department operates, which traditionally is independent from the White House.

帕姆·邦迪在任何方面都没有试图保持独立。

In no way, shape, or form did Pam Bondi even try to be independent.

她炫耀自己如何严格遵循唐纳德·特朗普的指令行事，但即便如此，这仍不足以令他满意。

She bragged about how much she worked at the directive of Donald Trump, but even that wasn't enough for him.

此外，她在处理杰弗里·爱泼斯坦文件时，自己制造了一场政治危机。

And on top of that, she created a political crisis of her own making in her handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files.

没错。

Right.

我们肯定会谈到爱泼斯坦的文件。

And we will get to the Epstein files for sure.

不过，我想继续深入探讨邦迪对特朗普的忠诚服务，以及她在司法部为总统提供了多少支持，因为她的贡献确实很多。

I wanna, though, keep digging into the specifics of Bondi's loyal service to Trump and what she gave the president within the DOJ because it was a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，迈克尔，一个很好的切入点是2025年3月在司法部总部。

I mean, Michael, a good place to start is in March 2025 at the Justice Department headquarters.

欢迎来到司法部。

Welcome to the Department of Justice.

她邀请总统前来演讲。

She invited the president to come speak.

在总统讲话之前，帕姆·邦迪发表了一番讲话。

And before he speaks, Pam Bondi gives a speech.

我们所有人都为我国历史上最伟大的总统工作。

And we all work for the greatest president in the history of our country.

她说自己正在为我国历史上最伟大的总统工作。

And what she says is that she is working for the greatest president in the history of our country.

我们非常自豪能按照唐纳德·特朗普的指示工作。

And We are so proud to work at the directive of Donald Trump.

她声称自己是‘按照唐纳德·特朗普的指示’工作。

That she works, quote, at the directive of Donald Trump.

这真是前所未有的。

Now that is unprecedented.

在以往的政府中，司法部长通常会尽量避免出席某些白宫活动，因为他们不想显得与总统及其盟友过于亲近。

In previous administrations, attorneys general would try to not even appear at certain White House events because they didn't wanna seem too close or cozy with the president and his allies.

帕姆·邦迪却采取了完全相反的做法，大肆宣扬自己如何听从唐纳德·特朗普的指示。

Pam Bondi is taking it in the exact opposite direction, touting how much she takes direction from Donald Trump.

他永远不会停止为我们而战，我们也永远不会停止为他和我们的国家而战。

He will never stop fighting for us, and we will never stop fighting for him and for our country.

在她任职期间，她做了许多他希望她做的事情。

And then over the course of her tenure, she did many of the things that he wanted her to do.

她主导了司法部检察官和联邦调查局特工的大规模清洗，这些人曾负责调查特朗普卸任后的案件。

She oversees a wide scale purging of justice department prosecutors and FBI agents who worked on cases investigating Donald Trump when he was out of office.

我们应当说明，这些联邦调查局特工和司法部律师，并非主动要求参与这些案件。

And we should just say those FBI agents, those DOJ lawyers, they didn't necessarily seek to be on those cases.

他们是被上级指派去调查特朗普的。

They were assigned to investigate Trump by their bosses.

而突然间，邦迪却说，做你的本职工作、让总统不高兴，就意味着你将失去工作。

And suddenly, Bondi is saying, doing your job and upsetting the president means that you are now out of a job.

是的。

Right.

她立即明确表示，任何在庞大的司法部和联邦调查局工作的人，都必须通过忠诚度考验。

She's immediately making clear that there is a loyalty test for anyone who works in the sprawling Department of Justice and FBI.

我认为，这就是她履行职责的蓝图。

And that, I think, is the blueprint for which she carried out her job.

随后，我们看到在帕姆·邦迪的领导下，司法部对特朗普的一些长期政治对手展开了调查，比如加利福尼亚州的参议员亚当·希夫、美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔——特朗普希望他降低利率。

And then we saw the Department of Justice, under Pam Bondi's leadership launch investigations into some of Trump's long standing political opponents, Adam Schiff, the senator from California, Jerome Powell, the Fed Reserve chairman who he wants to lower interest rates.

我们看到他们试图起诉前联邦调查局局长詹姆斯·科米、纽约州总检察长莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯，甚至试图起诉六名国会议员，指控他们犯有‘建议军方人员不要服从非法命令’的罪行。

We saw them try to secure indictments of James Comey, the former FBI director, Leticia James, the New York attorney general, and they even tried to indict six members of congress for the alleged crime of telling military officials they should not follow illegal orders.

这些案件和调查中的许多都因各种原因停滞或未能推进，主要是因为缺乏足够的证据来起诉或继续推进。

And many of these cases and investigations have collapsed or not moved forward for various reasons, mostly because there was not enough evidence to indict or to move forward.

是的。

Right.

这些案件证据薄弱或法律依据存疑，实际上都崩溃了。

The cases were so thin or legally dubious that they essentially collapsed.

对。

Right.

所以，迈克尔，她最终把自己陷入了一个困境：她公开如此明确地表明自己正在执行总统的政治性起诉指令，导致许多法官和陪审团直接拒绝推进这些案件或调查。

So, Michael, she ultimately gets herself in a trap in which she makes it harder for her to carry out the president's directives of politically motivated prosecutions because she's making it so clear publicly that she's doing so that many judges and juries are just flat out rejecting any efforts to carry those cases or investigations forward.

对。

Right.

而且，通过将司法部的使命界定得如此狭隘——‘我会去追击你的敌人，总统先生’——邦迪实际上给自己留下了很少的成功空间，因为她心里清楚，这些案件本质上并不牢固。

And by making the mission of the Department of Justice under her so narrow, I will go after your enemies, mister president, Bondi doesn't really leave herself much room for success because she knows at the end of the day that these aren't especially strong cases.

即使她投入了如此多的资源去调查唐纳德·特朗普的政治对手，这仍然不足以让他满意。

And even as she is devoting so many resources to investigating Donald Trump's political opponents, it's still not enough for him.

他向助手和盟友抱怨，说她行动太慢了。

He is complaining to aides and allies that she's moving too slowly.

我们甚至看到一些批评公开化了：唐纳德·特朗普在True Social上发布了一条致司法部长的消息，严厉指责她成果不足，没有起诉他认为有罪的个人。

And we even saw some of this criticism spill out into the public when Donald Trump posted on True Social a message addressed to his attorney general, basically castigating her for not getting enough results and not prosecuting individuals that he thought were guilty of crimes.

因此，这形成了一种自我实现的循环：她不断试图起诉更多人、启动更多调查，以兑现他广泛报复的承诺，却不断遭遇障碍，而这正是我们国家司法体系运作方式的结果。

And so it's just this self fulfilling cycle of her trying to prosecute more people, launch more investigations, fulfill his wide ranging retribution promises, and finding roadblocks after roadblocks because of the way our justice system in the country works.

是的。

Right.

所以她现在有些麻烦，而她的忠诚并不能解决这个问题。

So she's in some trouble here, and her loyalty is not solving the problem.

而且，迈克尔，这还不够，她正身处另一个巨大的丑闻中心。

And, Michael, as if that wasn't enough, there's a huge other scandal swirling with her right at the center of it.

当然，那就是杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的调查。

And that, of course, is the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

早在一开始，她就给自己造成了一个巨大的自伤行为。

Very early on, she commits this enormous self inflicted wound.

司法部可能会公布杰弗里·爱泼斯坦客户的名单？

The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients?

这真的会发生吗？

Will that really happen?

通过上福克斯新闻宣布

By going on Fox News and announcing

它现在就放在我桌上等待审阅。

It's sitting on my desk right now to review.

这是特朗普总统下达的指令。

That's been a directive, by president Trump.

我正在审阅这份文件。

I'm reviewing that.

杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的客户名单就放在她的桌上，等着她审阅。

Jeffrey Epstein's client list is sitting on her desk ready for her review.

而第二天

And then the next day

所以今天早上，我去了白宫，与特朗普总统、副总统J.D.万斯、司法部长帕姆·邦迪以及联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔会面。

So this morning, I was at the White House meeting with president Trump and vice president, JD Vance, and attorney general, Pam Bondi, and FBI director, Kash Patel.

他们向我们展示了，让我给你看。

And they presented us with let me show you.

她参加了在白宫举行的保守派意见领袖会议。

She joins a meeting of conservative influencers at the White House.

他们递给我们这本册子。

And they presented us with this binder.

并给了他们一本册子。

And gives them a binder.

封面上写着：‘ Epstein 文件 第一阶段，根据司法部长帕梅拉·邦迪和联邦调查局局长卡什·帕特尔的命令。’

It says in the front, the Epstein files phase one by order of attorney general Pamela Bondi and FBI director Cash Patel.

标签为 Epstein 文件，他们走出白宫时对着摄像机挥舞着。

Labeled Epstein files that they walk out of the White House waving for the cameras.

内容很多，而且其中很多之前已经见过。

It's a lot, and a lot of this has already been seen before.

但很快，他们对这次发布感到失望。

But very quickly, they become disenchanted with this release.

别坐那儿跟我说什么都没有，你明明告诉我有东西的。

Don't sit there and tell me there's nothing when you told me there was something.

这是司法部长的问题。

That's the issue for the AG.

感觉他们并没有从中了解到任何新内容。

Feeling that they haven't actually learned anything new from it.

和特朗普总统希望的起诉一样，邦迪大张旗鼓地做出承诺，却未能兑现。

And as with the indictments that president Trump wants, here comes Bondi making a big show, making big promises, and not delivering.

这在保守派基础群体和国会山引发了更多不满，最终促使共和党和民主党联手通过立法，迫使司法部公开所有埃普斯坦文件。

And this causes more agita within the conservative base and on Capitol Hill and ultimately leads to Republicans and Democrats joining together through legislation to force the Department of Justice to release all of the Epstein files.

这对特朗普总统来说是个政治问题。

This is a problem for president Trump politically.

确实如此。

Indeed.

而且，迈克尔，这也是国会山上的共和党人首次真正站出来反对总统，违抗他不支持这项立法的要求。

And it's also, Michael, one of the first times Republicans on Capitol Hill really stand up to the president and disobey his demands to not support this legislation.

而且

And

邦迪对自己造成的这些自伤行为最引人注目的是，她根本不必这么做。

what's so striking about what Bondi did with those self inflicted wounds is that she didn't have to do it.

总统并没有要求她这么做。

The president wasn't asking her to do it.

这跟起诉案不一样。

It wasn't like the indictments.

这是她自己主动做的，结果却严重适得其反。

This was something she kind of did on her own initiative, and it really, really backfired spectacularly.

没错。

Right.

迈克尔，整个 Epstein 事件让帕姆·邦迪陷入了极度被动，以至于白宫幕僚长苏西·怀尔斯——她和邦迪在佛罗里达州时期的老盟友——在接受《名利场》采访时称，邦迪在处理 Epstein 文件上彻底搞砸了。

And, Michael, this entire episode around Epstein has really put Pam Bondi in the hot seat, so much so that Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff and a longtime ally of Pam Bondi from their time in Florida, told Vanity Fair in an interview that Bondi completely whiffed in her handling of the Epstein files.

来自国会的压力从未缓解，最终在几周前的一场听证会上，两党议员都对她处理调查的方式进行了严厉质询。

And the pressure never relented from Capitol Hill and culminated in a hearing a few weeks ago where law lawmakers from both parties grilled her on her handling of the investigation.

总的来说，迈克尔，帕姆·邦迪的表现并不好。

And overall, Michael, it did not go very well for Pam Bondi.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我叫丹·鲍威尔。

My name is Dan Powell.

我是玛丽昂·洛萨诺。

I'm Marion Lozano.

我们是《纽约时报》的作曲家。

We are composers at The New York Times.

我们为《每日新闻》创作大量音乐。

And we write a lot of music for The Daily.

我目前正在创作一首名为《几何》的作品。

I'm currently working on a piece called Geometry.

这是一个音乐性的沉思时刻，帮助听众消化故事内容。

It's a musical moment of reflection to help the listener digest the story.

这首作品是为一个太空主题的节目创作的。

This piece is for a space episode.

我想让听众直接置身于太空的深邃黑暗中。

I wanna put the listener right into the deep darkness of space.

对于这段配乐，制作人希望我们创作出能唤起七十年代末感觉的作品。

For this cue, the producers wanted us to write something that would evoke the late seventies.

我先从贝斯线开始，然后加了一些鼓点。

I started with a baseline, and then I added some drums to it.

他说：你能给这段音乐再多加20%到30%的放克元素吗？

He said, can you, like, add 20 or 30% more funk to this?

是的。

Yeah.

我们创作音乐是为了突出某个时刻，将你融入故事中，却不直接告诉你该如何感受。

We write music to highlight a moment, to draw you into the story without telling you how to feel.

是的。

Yeah.

这始终是一个需要破解的谜题。

It's always the puzzle to solve.

所以，如果你喜欢《每日新闻》，并希望我们继续为这档节目制作富有反思性、宇宙感、有时带点律动但始终含蓄的音乐，请通过订阅《纽约时报》来支持我们。

So if you love The Daily and you want us to keep making reflective, cosmic, sometimes groovy, but always subtle music for the show, Support us by subscribing to The New York Times.

我们欢迎各位参加今天关于司法部监督的听证会。

And we welcome everyone to today's hearing on oversight of the Department of Justice.

所以，泰勒，提醒我们一下这次国会听证会，事情从原本对帕姆·邦迪就不利，变得更糟了。

So, Tyler, remind us about this congressional hearing in which things go from not so good already for Pam Bondi to worse.

感谢主席乔丹、首席议员拉斯金以及委员会各位杰出成员。

Thank you, chairman Jordan, ranking member Raskin, and distinguished members of this committee.

在这次听证会上，充分展现了她在处理这项调查时所面临的强烈敌意。

In this hearing, it's on full display how much animosity there is toward her in her handling of this investigation.

你已经起诉了多少名爱泼斯坦的共犯？

How many of Epstein's co conspirators have you indicted?

你们目前甚至在调查多少名施害者？

How many perpetrators are you even investigating?

她正遭到民主党人的猛烈抨击。

She's getting blasted by Democrats.

我发现。

I I find out.

怎么

How

你起诉了多少人？

many have you indicted?

抱歉。

Excuse me.

我会回答这个问题。

I'm gonna answer the question.

我来回答我的问题。

I answer my question.

不。

No.

我会按照我想的方式回答这个问题，不行。

I'm gonna answer the question the way I wanna answer the question No.

你得按照

You're gonna answer the question the

我问的方式回答。

way I asked it.

乔丹主席，我不会跟这些人一样低俗。

Chairman Jordan, I'm not gonna get in the gutter with these people.

多少

How

但我会回答这个问题。

many But I'm gonna answer the question.

你们邀请了多少人？

How many of you invited?

你

You

可以

can

让她整天 filibuster，但别在我们这儿。

let her filibuster all day long, but not on our watch.

说清楚。

Be clear.

别在我们的时间内。

Not on our time.

没门。

No way.

说清楚。

Be clear.

在你开始之前，我就已经告诉过你了，总检察长。

And I told you about that, attorney general, before you started.

你别来教训我。

You don't tell me.

不行。

No.

哦，我确实告诉过你

Oh, I did

因为我们在参议院看到了你的所作所为。

tell you because we saw what you did in the senate.

律师。

Lawyer.

连律师都不是。

Not even a lawyer.

也许我们该按规矩来了。

Maybe we'll be in order.

作为

As

特朗普训练了他的官员，她寸步不让。

Trump has trained his officials, she gives no inch.

这真是讽刺。

Ironic is that.

你知道为什么吗？

You know why?

因为唐纳德·特朗普，现在的道琼斯指数已经超过五万了，我不明白你为什么笑。

Because Donald Trump, the Dow the Dow right now is over the Dow is over 50,000 doll I don't know why you're laughing.

我听说拉斯金，你是个很棒的股票交易员。

You're a great stock trader as I hear Raskin.

道琼斯指数是

The Dow is

她谈论道琼斯指数，这很快成了网络迷因，因为她作为总检察长的职责与此无关。

She talks about the Dow, which quickly becomes an Internet meme because it's unrelated to her job as attorney general.

也绝对与爱泼斯坦调查无关。

And definitely unrelated to the Epstein investigation.

三百万人，完全正确。

3,000,000 Totally.

她提供的详细回答很少。

She offered few detailed answers.

她没有承认任何过错。

She had no admission of fault.

你在开场陈述中向幸存者道歉，感谢他们因杰弗里·爱泼斯坦而遭受的痛苦。

You apologize to the survivors in your opening statement for what they went through at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein.

你现在能否转向他们，为司法部因毫无底线地公开爱泼斯坦文件及其个人信息而给他们带来的伤害道歉？

Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through with the absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files and their information.

国会议员，梅里克·加兰曾两次坐在这把椅子上。

Congresswoman, Merrick Garland sat in this chair twice.

司法部长邦迪。

Attorney general Bondi.

现在我可以说完我的回答了吗？

Now can I finish my answer?

不行。

No.

我甚至拒绝了要求她转身向在听证会现场的杰弗里·爱泼斯坦幸存者道歉的请求。

I'm And even refuses a request to turn around and apologize to survivors of Jeffrey Epstein who are in the hearing room.

对。

Right.

随着听证会的进行。

And then as the hearing goes on.

请允许肯塔基州的这位先生发言。

The gentleman from Kentucky is recognized.

越来越明显的是，共和党人也在大力施压她。

It's becoming increasingly clear that Republicans too are really pressing her.

在我右边是一封由受害者律师发送给司法部的电子邮件。

To my right is an email that was sent by the victims' lawyers to the DOJ.

这是一份不应公开的人员名单。

It was a list of names not to release.

司法部对这封邮件做了什么？

What did the DOJ do with this email?

他们在文件披露中公开了这封邮件。

They released this email in the document production.

你所做的，正是对幸存者最糟糕的事情。

Literally, the worst thing you could do to the survivors, you did.

我认为这表明，爱泼斯坦问题及其引发的愤怒确实是两党共同关注的议题，而且

And I think what it illustrates is just how much the Epstein issue and the outrage around it is a bipartisan And

因此，我们将休会。

with that, we're gonna stand in recess.

我们会尽快完成投票。

We will go as quick as we can and vote.

议院里有两个快速投票，我们稍后回来。

We have two quick votes on the floor, we would back.

没有异议。

Without objection.

我们现在休会。

We stand in recess.

是的。

Right.

我实际上观看了那场听证会，令我震惊的是，那么多明显持党派立场的共和党人似乎并不愿意给予她任何帮助。

I actually ended up watching that hearing, and I was struck by how many pretty demonstrably partisan Republicans just did not seem eager to lend her a helping hand.

是的。

Yeah.

上个月，该委员会中的五名共和党人出其不意地背弃了本党领导层，与民主党人一起投票，决定在非公开场合传唤潘·邦迪作证，就埃普斯坦案接受宣誓询问。

And then last month, five Republicans on that very committee blindsided their own leadership and Pam Bondi joining Democrats to vote to subpoena her to testify under oath behind closed doors about the Epstein case.

对。

Right.

再明显不过的是，如果你是特朗普总统，且知道你的政党控制着国会，而国会却传唤你的司法部长，强迫他在与你总统任期密切相关的丑闻——杰弗里·埃普斯坦及其邮件——下接受宣誓作证，而邮件中多次提及你本人，这绝非好事。

And just to state the obvious, if you're president Trump and you know your own party controls congress, having that congress subpoena your attorney general and have them forced to testify under oath about a scandal swirling around your presidency, Jeffrey Epstein, his emails in which Trump himself is named a lot, that is not ideal.

确实不是。

Definitely not.

所有这些都进一步加深了总统对潘·邦迪是否仍适合担任此职务的疑虑。

And all of this just continues to reinforce doubts in the president's mind about whether Pam Bondi is the right person to continue to serve in this job.

周一，我得到一个消息，称总统正准备解雇她。

And on Monday, I got a tip that the president was on the verge of firing her.

所以我花了过去几天时间进行报道，最终收集到足够多的消息来源，确信总统正在讨论这一决定。

So I spent the last several days reporting that out, eventually getting enough sources to feel confident that the president was discussing making that move.

而最明显的迹象出现在周三，当时我联系白宫寻求正式回应。

And the biggest tell that this was imminent was on Wednesday when I reached out to the White House for formal comment.

我们的报道即将发布，称总统曾讨论过解雇帕姆·邦迪，而他们给我的回应直接来自特朗普总统本人，而不是白宫新闻秘书卡罗琳·利维特或其他通讯部门的人。

Our story was going to publish to say the president had discussed firing Pam Bondi, and the comment they gave me was directly from president Trump, not Caroline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, or someone else in the communications shop.

这是总统亲自给出的回应，内容如下：

It was from the president directly, and this is what it said.

‘引述：司法部长帕姆·邦迪是个很棒的人，她工作表现不错。’

Quote, attorney general Pam Bondi is a wonderful person, and she is doing a good job.

用特朗普式语言来解读这句话。

Translate that in Trumpology.

特朗普这个人喜欢用很多形容词。

Trump is somebody who uses a lot of adjectives.

说他的司法部长工作表现不错，恰恰是最明显的信号，表明他对她的工作并不满意。

Saying his attorney general is doing a good job is the biggest tell that he is not satisfied with her job performance.

我的意思是，这真的让我好奇你们是怎么做这份工作的，因为甚至

I mean, this really makes me wonder how you guys do your job because even

在这个政府里，‘好’这个词其实并不意味着真的好。

the word good doesn't really mean good in this administration.

特朗普是一个富有表现力的政治家，很少看到他的声明不使用全大写或感叹号。

Trump is a expressive politician, and it's rare to see a statement without all caps, exclamation points.

你可以通过他使用的语言判断他对某件事的感受，这对我们就非常明显了。

You can tell how Trump feels about something based on the language he's using, and this was an obvious one for us.

对。

Right.

在这种情况下，‘好’基本上意味着你的日子不多了。

In this case, good basically meant your days are numbered.

我想知道，泰勒，你的报道是否表明这里有什么最后的导火索，还是说这只是你之前所列出的所有事情的必然结果。

I'm curious if your reporting, Tyler, suggests that there was any kind of a final straw here or just a logical culmination of all of the things that you have been laying out here.

邦迪无法将总统的敌人送进监狱，她在爱泼斯坦事件上的失误，以及最终未能成为总统在司法部长职位上所需要的那种沟通者。

Bondi's inability to put the president's enemies in jail, her blunders around Epstein, and ultimately, failure to be the kind of communicator, perhaps, that he needs in the role of attorney general.

迈克尔，根据我们目前的报道，我的理解是，并没有一个单一的最终原因，而是像你刚才所指出的那样，是众多因素累积的结果。

Michael, my understanding based on the reporting we have at this point is that there was not one final thing, but rather, as you just laid out, the culmination of many things.

在过去的几周和几个月里，特朗普的许多盟友和助手都在他耳边低语，鼓励他、催促他终止这一任命，认为有其他人更适合在司法部推动他的议程。

And over the last several weeks and months, many of Trump's allies and aides were whispering in his ear, encouraging him, prodding him to pull the plug, arguing there were people better positioned to accomplish his agenda at the Department of Justice.

那么，我们来谈谈这些人可能是谁，以及我们认为谁最有可能成为特朗普的下一任司法部长？

Well, let's talk about who those people might be and who we think is likely to be the next attorney general for Trump?

目前，搜寻工作仍在进行中。

So the search is ongoing.

但暂时而言，总统已宣布，副司法部长托德·布兰奇将担任代理司法部长。

But for the time being, the president has announced that Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, will serve as acting attorney general.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在提拔布兰奇时，他选择了一个他非常熟悉的人。

And in elevating Blanche, he's choosing someone who he's deeply familiar with.

布兰奇在加入政府之前，曾是总统的私人律师，并代表他在多起刑事案件中出庭，包括在纽约就向色情女星支付封口费一案的审判中与他坐在一起。

Blanche, before he joined the administration, was the president's personal lawyer and represented him in multiple criminal trials, including sitting with him at the New York trial over the hush money payment to a porn star.

因此，他深刻理解总统的复仇意愿，并自始至终都是司法部开展这场报复行动的关键人物。

And so he deeply understands the president's desire for revenge, and he has been a key part of the effort to run this retribution campaign from the justice department since day one.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以，理论上他是这个职位的合理人选，但尚未被提名，我们也不清楚最终会是谁。

So he is, in theory, a logical candidate for the job, but he hasn't been nominated, and we don't know exactly who will be.

对。

Right.

我们之前报道过，在潘·邦迪被解雇前，特朗普曾有意提拔环保署署长李·泽尔丁担任这一职位。

We reported before Pam Bondi was fired that Trump had been interested in elevating Lee Zeldin, the administrator of the EPA, for the job.

但值得注意的是，特朗普尚未宣布永久接任者。

But it's telling that Trump has not announced a permanent replacement.

他解雇克里斯汀·诺姆时，已经准备好由参议员马克·韦恩·穆伦接任。

When he fired Christine Noem, he he was teed up with Mark Wayne Mullen, the senator.

是的。

Mhmm.

这次，他显然仍在考虑谁适合接替她的位置。

This time, he's clearly still thinking about who he wants as her replacement.

那么，无论最终谁被提名，我想知道你觉得帕姆·邦迪的经历——这段极其痛苦的经历——会给下一位总检察长带来什么教训？

Well, whoever ends up getting nominated, I wonder what you think the lesson of Pam Bondi, the very painful lesson of Pam Bondi, will be for the next attorney general?

我的意思是，他们将面临同样的挑战，即特朗普对报复有着巨大的渴望。

I mean, they are going to face the same challenge, which is Trump has an enormous appetite for retribution.

而他希望起诉的许多人、他想推动的案件，证据根本不足，法官和陪审团也不会配合。

And many of the people he wants to see indicted or the cases he wants to see brought, the evidence just isn't there, and judges and juries are not going along.

因此，即使总统任命了新人，他们仍将面临一项艰巨的任务：以有时超出他们控制的方式满足特朗普的要求。

So even as the president puts in someone new, they're going to face the enormous task satisfying him in ways that are sometimes beyond their control.

是的。

Right.

从这个意义上说，特朗普第二任期的总检察长在很多方面注定会失败。

In that sense, the attorney general of Trump term two is in a

在很多方面都注定会失败。

lot of ways set up to fail.

看起来就是这样。

That's how it seems.

好了，泰勒，非常感谢你。

Well, Tyler, thank you very much.

我们很感激。

We appreciate it.

非常感谢你邀请我，迈克尔。

Thanks so much for having me, Michael.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

以下是今天你需要了解的其他内容。

Here's what else you need to know today.

由于特朗普总统对伊朗的处理方式，美国盟友的不满情绪在周四达到顶点，法国总统马克龙公开抨击了特朗普。

Growing frustration from American allies over president Trump's approach to Iran boiled over on Thursday when French president Emmanuel Macron lashed out at Trump.

马克龙在对记者讲话时，嘲讽特朗普每天似乎都在自相矛盾地表述其对战争的目标，并建议特朗普解决办法就是少谈战争。

Speaking to reporters, Macron mocked Trump for seemingly contradicting himself on his goals for the war on a daily basis and suggested that one solution was for Trump to simply talk less about the war.

与此同时，对于特朗普总统而言，最新一个头疼的问题是，伊朗表示，即使战争结束后，它仍打算继续监督霍尔木兹海峡的关键航运交通。

Meanwhile, in the latest headache for president Trump, Iran signaled that it intends to keep overseeing shipping traffic through the crucial Strait Of Hormuz even after the war ends.

美国坚称，伊朗没有法律权利这样做。

The United States insists that Iran has no legal right to do so.

最后，随着战争持续，美国国防部长佩特·海格塞夫因各种分歧解雇了陆军最高级别官员、四星将军兰迪·乔治。

Finally, as the war rages on, US defense secretary Pete Hegseff has fired the army's highest ranking official, four star general Randy George, over a variety of disagreements.

其中一项分歧是海格塞夫异常地阻止了四名陆军官员的晋升，这一举动遭到乔治将军的强烈反对。

One of them was Hegseff's unusual decision to block the promotion of four army officials, a move that general George strongly opposed.

本期节目由尼娜·菲尔德曼和凯特琳·奥基夫制作。

Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman and Caitlin O'Keefe.

编辑由蕾切尔·奎斯托和玛丽亚·伯恩负责。

It was edited by Rachel Questor and Maria Byrne.

音乐由Alishuba Itub、丹·鲍威尔和玛丽昂·洛萨诺提供。

Contains music by Alishuba Itub, Dan Powell, and Marion Lozano.

我们的主题音乐由Wonderly创作。

Our theme music is by Wonderly.

本集的音频制作由艾莉莎·莫克利负责。

This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

《每日新闻》音频团队包括艾莉莎·莫克利、克里斯·伍德、马迪·马西埃洛、尼克·皮特曼、凯尔·格兰迪洛和阿菲姆·沙皮罗。

The DAILIES engineering team is Alyssa Moxley, Chris Wood, Maddie Massiello, Nick Pittman, Kyle Grandillo, and Afeem Shapiro.

我们的广播团队由乔迪·贝克尔、罗尼·米斯托、王黛安和凯瑟琳·安德森组成。

Our radio team is Jody Becker, Rooney Misto, Diane Wong, and Katherine Anderson.

亚历山德拉·李·杨担任我们的副执行制片人。

Alexandra Lee Young is our Deputy Executive Producer.

迈克尔·贝努瓦担任我们的副编辑。

Michael Benoit is our Deputy Editor.

佩吉·考特是《每日新闻》的编辑。

Paige Cowet is the editor of The Daily.

本·卡尔霍恩是我们的执行制片人。

Ben Calhoun is our Executive Producer.

特别感谢保拉·舒曼、拉里莎·安德森、萨姆·多尼克，以及《每日新闻》的创始编辑丽莎·托宾。

Special thanks to Paula Schuman, Larissa Anderson, Sam Dolnick, and to the founding editor of The Daily, Lisa Tobin.

以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。

That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

I'm Michael Bilbaro.

周日再见。

See you on Sunday.