欧洲正在燃烧

纽约时报的App里有很多你可能没见过的内容。

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

就是那个

The way

顶部有各种不同版块的标签。

the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

我可以马上找到符合我当时心情的内容。

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

我每次都订游戏。

I order games always.

玩迷你游戏。

Doing the mini.

玩Wordle。

Doing the Wordle.

我很喜欢它让我接触到这么多内容。

I loved how much content it exposed me to.

那些我从来不会想到去新闻应用里找的东西。

Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

这个应用是必不可少的。

This app is essential.

《纽约时报》应用。

The New York Times app.

所有时报内容，尽在一处。

All of the times, all in one place.

现在就到nytimes.com/app下载吧。

Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

来自《纽约时报》，我是佐兰·卡诺·杨斯，代班主持。

From The New York Times, I'm Zolan Kano Youngs filling in as host.

这里是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

今晚，无情的火墙在欧洲肆虐。

Tonight, relentless walls of flame raging across Europe.

消防员说这就像大卫对抗歌利亚。

Firefighters say it's David versus Goliath.

火灾发生一周后，他们仍在苦苦挣扎。

A week after it started, they're still struggling.

试图控制法国和西班牙失控的野火。

To contain massive wildfires burning out of control in France and Spain.

今年夏天，野火肆虐欧洲，法国和西班牙受灾尤其严重。

This summer, wildfires have been raging across Europe, with France and Spain particularly hard hit.

超过36万居民和游客已被疏散。

More than 360,000 residents and tourists have now been evacuated.

感觉就像在战区一样。

It feels like we're in a war zone.

这是波尔多附近一位女士的话，当时火焰越来越近。

The words of one woman living near Bordeaux as flames get ever closer.

数十万英亩土地被烧毁，村庄被毁，整个社区因火灾而支离破碎。

Hundreds of thousands of acres incinerated, villages destroyed, and entire communities upended by the fires.

警察来了，在社区里大喊，说你们必须撤离。

Police come and started screaming in the neighborhood like, you have to get out.

快走。

Get out.

你们只有二十分钟。

You have twenty minutes.

赶紧疏散。

Evacuate.

今天，我和我的同事奇科·哈兰以及马克·兰德勒聊了聊，为什么今年的火灾季节对欧洲来说尤其严重，以及面对气候变化，欧洲大陆需要做出多大的调整。

Today, I talked to my colleagues, Chico Harlan and Mark Landler, about why this fire season has been especially devastating for Europe and how, when it comes to climate change, the continent is grappling with just how much it may need to adapt.

今天是7月30日，星期四。

It's Thursday, July 30.

奇科，欢迎来到《每日新闻》。

Chico, welcome to The Daily.

非常感谢你的邀请。

Thank you so much for having me.

当然。

Of course.

这是你第一次上我们的节目。

This is your first time on the show.

是的。

It is.

很高兴你能来。

Well, I am glad to have you here.

你是《纽约时报》的全球气候记者，常驻欧洲。

You're the global climate correspondent at The New York Times, and you're based in Europe.

那就帮我们分析一下法国和西班牙这些火灾的情况吧。

So help us make sense of these fires that are sweeping across France and Spain.

你觉得这两个国家怎么会同时发生规模这么大、破坏力这么强的火灾？

What's your understanding of how both these countries get fires this big and destructive at the same time?

你说得对。

Well, you're right.

这些火灾同时发生，是法国和西班牙有史以来规模最大的。

These fires are simultaneously unfolding as the largest ever in France and the largest in Spain.

它们都发生在马德里和波尔多等主要城市的郊区，已经进行了大规模疏散。

They're both unfolding on the outskirts of major cities, Madrid and Bordeaux, and there have been large scale evacuations.

要真正理解为什么会出现两场历史性的火灾，得追溯到五月，那时甚至还没到夏天。

And in order to really understand how you get two fires that are both historic, kind of have to go back all the way to May when it wasn't even summer yet.

欧洲正在为2026年的第一次重大高温事件做准备。

Europe is bracing for its first major heat event of 2026.

那是西欧第一次遭遇热浪袭击。

That was the first time that Western Europe was hit by a heat wave.

天气热得让人受不了。

And it is punishingly hot.

人们都在找阴凉处躲着。

People are scurrying for shade.

我睡觉前刚冲了个澡。

I'm taking a shower right before bed.

我睡觉的时候身上盖着湿毛巾，说实话就是为了活下去，尽量能睡着。

I'm sleeping with wet towels over me just to try to survive honestly and just try to sleep.

然后更大的热浪来了，就在一个月后的六月底。

And then came the big one, just a month later in late June.

埃菲尔铁塔因为安全问题提前关闭了。

The Eiffel Tower closed early to safety concerns.

法国部分地区的气温达到了111华氏度。

Temperatures in parts of France hitting 111 degrees.

如果你只看

And if you just

法国，在三天之内，他们连续打破了国家历史上最热的一天纪录。

look at France for a second, in the span of three days, they set the hottest day in national history back to back to back.

法国总统说，这是前所未有的时刻。

These are unprecedented times, said the French president.

如果那只是持续三天的事情，那本身就已经很惊人了。

And if that had just been a three day thing, that alone would have been remarkable.

但异常高温持续不退，消停几天后又卷土重来，一直延续到七月。

But the unusually hot temperatures stayed, and then they let up for a few days, and then they came roaring back through July.

今早，因西欧热浪肆虐，死亡人数持续攀升。

This morning, the death toll keeps climbing due to the brutal heat wave gripping Western Europe.

这次热浪非常致命。

It was very lethal.

西班牙一家公共机构称，今年六月因高温导致的超额死亡人数超过一千。

A public institute in Spain says there were more than a thousand excess heat related deaths this June.

有估算称，因高温导致的额外死亡人数达到一万。

Some estimates say ten thousand extra deaths because of heat.

也有人说是两万。

Some have said twenty thousand.

但可以肯定的是，这是西欧一次极其致命的高温事件。

But what you can say for sure is that this was a highly deadly event across Western Europe.

天哪。

Wow.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的意思是，在这些热浪中，有数万人死亡。

So you're saying tens of thousands of people are dying in these heat waves.

在美国，我们通常每年有几千人因此死亡，这已经很糟糕了。

In The US, we often see a a couple thousand people die annually, and that and that's awful.

但你描述的情况确实令人震惊。

But what you're describing is is striking here.

为什么死亡人数会这么高？

Why is this toll so big?

有几个原因。

There's a couple reasons for that.

一是欧洲的建筑比较老旧，不是为这种气候建造的。

One is Europe has buildings that are older and that were not built for this climate.

它们是为寒冷天气建造的，设计上是为了保温。

They're built for colder temperatures, and they were built to retain heat.

在巴黎，那些著名的漂亮房子和公寓都铺着锌皮屋顶，基本上就像烤箱一样。

In Paris, these famous beautiful homes, apartments are under zinc roofs, which basically are like ovens.

然后当然还有空调的因素，这个影响很大。

Then, of course, there's the air conditioning factor, which is a big one.

目前仍然只有少数欧洲家庭有空调。

Still, a minority of Europeans have air conditioning.

所以在热浪期间，有条件的人白天会想尽办法找地方待着。

And then during heat waves, people who can will scramble for anything during a daytime.

他们会去商场。

They'll go to a mall.

或者跳进游泳池。

They'll jump in a pool.

但那些老年人或者有基础病的人，可能只能困在公寓里，晚上也凉快不下来，整夜都很热。

But people who are elderly or have preexisting conditions can be stuck in apartments that just never cool down and stay hot in the night.

哇。

Wow.

几天之后，他们的身体就撑不住了。

And after days, their bodies break down.

这些死亡就是这样发生的。

And that's how these deaths happen.

天哪。

God.

所以现在人们简直是在被烘烤，而这都是因为缺乏空调和建筑结构的问题。

So people are literally baking right now, and it's because of a lack of air conditioning and the architecture of buildings.

我要问一个，我知道这很美国式的问题，但我认为很多听众心里都有这个疑问。

I'm gonna ask, and I understand this, the most American question, but I do think it's a question that's on the minds of many listeners.

为什么不多用空调呢？

Why not use more air conditioning?

我明白有环保方面的顾虑，但给我解释一下。

I I get there are environmental concerns, but explain this to me.

这情况看起来太严重了。

This situation seems dire.

嗯，这需要钱和时间。

Well, it just requires money and time.

而且有些建筑的设计本身就不适合安装空调。

And in some cases, the design of the buildings presents a problem for installing air conditioning.

在法国，尤其是普遍存在一种对空调的哲学上的反对态度。

There's also widespread in France, especially a philosophical opposition to air conditioning.

但你要记住，之前的想法是，这种极度不适每年也就那么几个晚上。

But you have to remember that the idea was, look, this intense discomfort is a couple nights a year.

就是说，情况严重的时候我们还能应付。

Like, we can deal with it when it gets bad.

一年中其他时候根本用不上空调。

The rest of the year, there's no need for air conditioning.

但今年夏天的问题是，这些不适期——现在甚至是致命的不适——会持续数周，而不是只持续几天就过去了。

What's happened this summer is that these periods of discomfort, and now deadly discomfort, are lasting for weeks, not just a couple days and go away.

明白了。

Okay.

所以我想把视角拉远一点。

So I just want to zoom out.

为什么天气会这么热？

Why is it so much hotter?

显然，气候变化是其中一个重要原因。

Obviously, climate change, assume, a big part of this answer.

但请解释一下，为什么这次热浪在这些特定地区会如此严重？

But just explain what is making this heat wave so acute in these particular areas.

气候变化是全球性的原因，但还有一个更针对欧洲的答案，那就是气候变化在欧洲的具体表现。

Climate change is is the global answer, but there is a more Europe specific answer too, which is how climate change is playing out there.

欧洲变暖速度更快的一个很大原因，是因为靠近北极。

A big part of the reason that Europe is warming faster is because of proximity to the Arctic.

北极是整个地球变暖最快的地区。

The Arctic is the fastest warming part of the whole planet.

那又是为什么呢？

And why is that?

这是因为原本覆盖着冰雪的地方就像一块白色的反射板。

It's because this place that had snow cover and ice basically was like a white reflecting sheet.

而现在，那片白色正在消失，逐渐变成更暗的表面、深色的水域，那些不再有冰雪覆盖的地方。

And that whiteness is now being lost and gradually turning into more darker surfaces, dark waters, places where there's no longer ice or snow.

以前太阳光会被反射回去，但现在，那些辐射热量被吸收进了水里。

And now, whereas the sun used to bounce back up, now that radiation heat is being absorbed into the waters.

你可以想象一下大热天穿T恤的感觉。

You can think of it like a T shirt on a hot day.

穿白T恤的时候，热量会被反射回去。

We wear a white T shirt, it bounces back the heat.

要是穿黑T恤，

You wear a black T shirt

你就会觉得特别热。

You're extremely hot.

对。

Yes.

对。

Right.

而现在，北极就像那件黑T恤，正在引发连锁反应。

And right now, the Arctic is that black T shirt, and that is causing these ripple effects.

总的来说，欧洲每十年升温约0.5摄氏度，差不多是华氏1度。

What it adds up to is that Europe has been warming by about point five Celsius, which is almost a degree Fahrenheit per decade.

听起来数字不大，但把时间拉长到几十年，累积下来，气候就会变得跟你二十年前记忆中的样子完全不同。

That doesn't sound like a big number, but you spread that out and aggregate it over a couple decades, and all of a sudden, you have a climate that feels different than even what you remember twenty years ago.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来聊聊这些火灾吧。

So let's talk about these fires.

我们遇到了这种极端高温。

We've got this intense heat.

就这么简单吗？

Is it as simple as that?

天气热得多，所以东西更容易着火，对吧？

It's a lot hotter, so things will burn more easily?

这确实很直接，尤其是当高温持续很长时间时更是如此。

It is pretty straightforward, and that's especially true when heat lasts for a long time.

一天的高温峰值和持续数周的高温峰值之间有很大区别。

There's a big difference between a one day spike and a spike that goes on for weeks.

还有一些其他因素也在起作用，这些因素相对更隐蔽一些。

And there are there are other factors at play too that are a little bit more in the background.

我的意思是，其中一个因素是农村地区人口减少，农业更加集约化，但实际使用的农田地块却更小了。

I mean, one is just depopulation of rural areas, more intensification of agriculture, but but smaller plots of farmland that are being used.

因此，欧洲更多的土地被森林覆盖，这正是法国西南部这个地区发生的情况。

And so more of Europe is being overtaken by forest, and that is definitely what happened in this part of Southwestern France.

那个正在燃烧的区域以前是沼泽地。

That area that's burning used to be swampland.

在19世纪，政府在那里种植了松树林，而这些所谓的单一栽培林通常比混合林更容易着火。

And in the nineteenth century, the government planted pine forests there, And these monoculture forests, as they're called, often burn more easily than ones that are mixed.

在法国过去的气候条件下，这种决策其实没什么大不了的。

This is the kind of decision that's not so consequential when France has the climate that it had historically.

但当你把气候变化带来的影响加进去，松树林一下子就变成了巨大的隐患。

But you combine that with what's changing because of climate change, and all of a sudden having pine forest becomes a huge liability.

好的。

Okay.

所以他们种了一大片树。

So they planted a bunch of trees.

结果呢，无意中搞出了一个易燃的干柴堆。

And in the process, it seems like they inadvertently created a Tinder box.

没错。

That's right.

我觉得从这件事，以及你在这里看到的其他很多情况，能得出的结论就是：欧洲在自然环境和物理环境上的建设，完全是基于一个已经不复存在的环境。

And I think the conclusion that you get from that and from so much else that you're seeing here is that Europe simply had built itself up in the natural world and in the physical world for an environment that no longer exists.

光想想城市就知道了，在极端高温期间如何让城市更宜居，这本身就会带来一系列后果和问题。

You just think about the cities alone and the consequences and problems that can come from thinking about how do we make the cities more livable during periods of intense heat.

确实，巴黎就是一个很好的例子，它全力改善自身条件，比如减少城市车辆数量、扩大绿地面积。

And indeed, like Paris has been a pretty good example of a place that has gone all in on trying to better equip itself by cutting the number of vehicles in the city, by expanding green space.

这些措施让巴黎成了欧洲的典范。

All these things have essentially made Paris the best in class example in Europe.

然而，这些热浪依然极其致命。

And yet, these heat waves are still extremely deadly.

所以，从这里就能看到这些叠加的挑战是如何累积起来的。

So this is where you start to see these compounding challenges add up.

更重要的是，这是一个全球性问题，欧洲受制于那些排放大国——中国、印度、美国，更不用说那些能源需求巨大且还在持续增长的发展中国家了。

And the bigger point is that this is a global problem, and Europe is at the mercy of the bigger emitting countries, China, India, The United States, not to mention fast growing developing countries where there's huge energy demands, and those demands will continue to be growing.

所以，正是这些地方的决定将决定世界的走向。

So these are the places that are gonna be determining the trajectory for the world with their decisions.

太阳能要用多少？

How much solar?

煤炭又要用多少？

How much coal?

这些问题真的很复杂。

These are really complicated questions.

而关键在于，我们基于化石燃料建立起来的工业和社会，转型的速度能有多快。

And at stake is how quickly we change the industries and societies we've built up based on fossil fuels.

所以这不是欧洲能单独决定的问题，这完全是一个全球性的议题。

So that's not a question where Europe has primacy to make a determination, and it is the definition of a global issue.

好的，奇科，谢谢你为我们解释了这一切的来龙去脉。

Well, Chico, thanks for explaining how we got here.

非常感谢你。

Appreciate you.

乐意效劳。

Happy to do it.

谢谢。

Thanks.

休息之后，我和身在法国的同事兰德勒聊了聊，看看这个国家是如何应对这些灾难带来的影响的。

After the break, I talked to my colleague, Landler, who is on the ground in France, about how the country is reckoning with the toll of these disasters.

你听听看这些说法熟不熟悉。

Tell me if any of this sounds familiar.

吃肉是健康的关键。

Eating meat is the key to good health.

尼古丁能提升大脑功能。

Nicotine can boost brain function.

GLP-1是神药。

GLP-1s are a miracle drug.

我是丹尼·布鲁姆。

I'm Dani Blum.

我是《纽约时报》的健康记者。

I'm a health reporter at The New York Times.

我们几乎无时无刻不被各种关于如何活得更好、感觉更好的说法轰炸，真的很难分清事实和虚构。

We're bombarded pretty much constantly with claims about how to live better and feel better, and it's really hard to separate fact from fiction.

这正是我的报道和《纽约时报》的独特之处——我会仔细梳理科学依据。

That's what really differentiates my reporting and The Times is that I am scouring the science.

我正在和顶尖专家交流。

I am speaking with leading experts.

我确保我写的每一篇文章都经过严谨的研究和报道，并且有据可查。

I am making sure that everything I write is rigorously researched, reported, and that I can back it up.

当科学证据不明确时，有时故事本身就是我们还不知道答案。

And when the science isn't clear, sometimes that is the story that we don't know the answers yet.

这种细微和深度，你在网上随便逛逛是看不到的。

And that's a level of nuance and depth you're not going to get just floating around the Internet.

这就是订阅《纽约时报》能带给你的。

That's what you get when you subscribe to The New York Times.

如果你已经订阅了，谢谢。

If you already subscribe, thanks.

如果你想订阅，请访问 mytimes.com/subscribe。

If you'd like to, go to mytimes.com/subscribe.

马克，我的朋友。

Mark, my friend.

很高兴你来了。

I'm glad you're here.

很高兴见到你，佐兰。

Great to be with you, Zolan.

我们刚和奇科·哈兰聊过，了解了这次创纪录的热浪以及随后毁灭性的山火是怎么发生的。

We just talked to Chico Harlan about how we got to the point of this record heat wave and subsequently these devastating wildfires.

但你，先生，是亲眼见证这一切的人。

But you, sir, are bearing witness.

我想让你告诉我你看到了什么。

And I want you to tell me what you have seen.

在波尔多这样的地方，实地情况是什么样的？

What does it look like from the ground in a place like Bordeaux?

我上周日下午三点半、四点左右到达波尔多。

So I arrived in Bordeaux last Sunday at around 03:30, 04:00 in the afternoon.

那天情况特别糟糕，因为风从西边往东边吹。

And that was a particularly bad day because the wind was blowing from the west to the east.

所以，所有火灾产生的烟雾从大约20英里外直接飘到了城市上空。

So all the smoke from the fire was blowing directly over the city from a distance of about 20 miles away.

当火车驶入这座美丽而古老的宏伟车站时，眼前的景象简直像末日一般，一片深黄橙色的云层笼罩着整座城市。

So as the train pulled into this very beautiful old soaring station, there was a really apocalyptic scene, a sort of a deep yellow orange cloud that was sort of hanging over the entire city.

你根本看不到太阳。

You you couldn't see the sun.

太阳完全被遮住了。

It really had blotted out the sun.

大教堂的尖顶是波尔多的地标，但在远处几乎辨认不出来。

The spires of the cathedral, which are are real landmark in Bordeaux, you could sort of barely pick them out in the distance.

火车进站后，我们下车沿着站台走，立刻就能闻到空气中那股浓烈的烟熏味。

And then when the train pulled in and we all stepped off and and walked down the platform, you instantly smelled this kind of deep smoky smell in the air.

走出车站来到街上，你眼前开始飘落细小的灰烬，喉咙里立刻就有了感觉。

And then as you walked out of the station and into the street, you actually began to see before your eyes these tiny pieces of ash floating in the air, and you instantly felt it in your throat.

眼睛也能感受到那种灼热。

You felt it on your eyes.

就像走进了一个非常反乌托邦的景象，瞬间让人真切地感受到，这座城市正处在巨大的困境之中。

It was like walking into a sort of a very dystopian kind of landscape, and it sort of very instantly brought home that this is an atmosphere in a city that was in a lot of distress.

好的。

Okay.

你到了火车站。

You're at the train station.

你正往波尔多方向去。

You're going towards Bordeaux.

但我猜你看到的大多数人，他们是想离开波尔多的。

But I'm imagining most of the people that you're seeing, they're trying to get out of Bordeaux.

他们想逃离这个地区。

They're trying to flee the area.

对吧？

Right?

车站里有很多人在计划离开这座城市。

There were a lot of people in the station making plans to leave the city.

我的目标是尽快赶到城市周围设立的一个大型疏散中心，那里用来安置被迫逃离家园的人。

My goal was to get as quickly as I could to one of these huge evacuation centers that had been set up around the city to accommodate people who'd been forced to flee their houses.

那是我开始报道这个故事时的第一个目的地。

So that was my first sort of destination as I began reporting the story.

好的。

Okay.

所以你到了疏散中心。

So you're at the evacuation center.

跟我说说你在那里听到的故事吧。

Tell me about the stories you heard while you were there.

首先，描述一下场景：你走进一个像飞机库一样巨大的房间，里面摆着成百上千张行军床，一排一排的。

First of all, just to set the scene, you walk into this enormous airplane hangar sized room where there are hundreds and hundreds of cots in rows.

人们有的躺在床上，有的坐在床上。

And people either lying on the cots, sitting on the cots.

有些人在打牌。

Some of them are playing cards.

很多人都是三五成群地坐着。

A lot of them are sitting in groups.

于是我就四处走了走。

So I sort of walked around.

我带了一个我们新闻部的助理，我们俩开始跟人聊天。

I brought a news assistant from our bureau, and the two of us began talking to people.

我们最先遇到的两个人，一个年轻女性，一个年长女性，她们都是半夜从公寓里逃出来的。

The first two people that we encountered were a younger woman and an older woman, both of whom had fled their apartments in the middle of the night.

警察几乎是直接敲门把她们从床上叫起来的，告诉她们必须马上离开。

They'd been rousted almost literally out of bed by the police knocking on their doors, telling them they had to leave now.

她们前一天晚上就知道情况已经很危急了。

They knew the previous evening that things were getting dire.

其中一个人告诉我，她站在五楼公寓的阳台上，能看到离她家只有一英里左右的那道火墙。

One of them told me that she stood on the balcony of her 5th Floor apartment and sort of could see the wall of flames only a mile or so from her apartment.

所以这些女人真的很担心，等她们有机会回家时，会发现什么，她们的公寓还能不能完好无损。

And so these women were really truly worried about what they would find when they got a chance to go home, whether their apartments would still be intact.

所以这些故事就是这样，而且真的是一遍又一遍地重复上演。

And so these were the kinds of stories, and they were reflected really over and over and over again.

放眼望去，这个空旷的大厅里，很多人都感到自己处于非常暴露和危险的境地，对未来充满恐惧，担心房子的状况、留下的东西，以及重建生活会有多困难。

As you looked out across this cavernous room, there were a lot of people who were feeling really in a very exposed and dangerous position, filled with fear about the future, about the state of their houses, the things they left behind, and how difficult it would be to pick up the pieces.

这听起来太惨了。

This sounds devastating.

我是说，全世界都看到了这场灾难的惨状。

I mean, the world is getting a glimpse of this devastation.

我们看到一些零散的视频，人们正在逃离家园。

We're seeing these scattered videos of people fleeing their homes.

我还看到一些居民选择加入灭火队伍，帮助消防员。

I've seen residents that are choosing to jump in and fight these fires and help firefighters.

但你确实描绘出了完整的画面。

But you're really painting a full picture of this.

那么到目前为止，特别是在法国，这些火灾烧毁了哪些地方？

And so far, specifically with France, what's been burned in the path of these fires?

最终造成了多大的破坏？

What has been ultimately destroyed?

简单说几个关键数字吧，我们说的是超过10万英亩的土地。

Just to give you a couple sort of headline numbers, we're talking about over a 100,000 acres of property.

很多很多村庄都遭到了破坏。

Many, many, many villages have been damaged.

特别是波尔多西边的拉波尔日村，损失惨重，大约150栋房屋被彻底烧毁，超过24万人被迫撤离家园。

One village in particular, La Porges, which is West of Bordeaux, has suffered catastrophic damage with some 150 homes utterly destroyed, and something in excess of 240,000 people were forced to evacuate their homes.

这成了现代法国历史上规模最大的和平时期疏散行动。

That makes this the largest peacetime evacuation in modern French history.

所以，我们说的这种自然灾害的规模，其他国家的人可能并不陌生。

And so we're really, you know, talking about a magnitude of natural disaster that may be familiar to people in other countries.

但在法国，这真的是前所未有的事情。

But in France, it is really truly something that no one has ever seen.

既然这次火灾比以往都严重得多，他们有没有足够的资源来应对？

So given that this is much bigger than past fires, do they have resources?

他们知道怎么对付这场大火吗？

Do they know how to fight this thing?

他们现在装备齐全吗？

Are they fully equipped in this moment?

法国在消防能力上投入了不少，部分原因是吸取了过去几次严重火灾季节的教训。

Well, France has invested a fair amount in firefighting capacity, in part drawing on the experience of some of the bad fire seasons that they've had in the past.

所以，是的，他们有这个能力。

So, yes, they do.

他们有加拿大飞机，可以在森林上空喷洒阻燃剂。

They have Canadair planes that are capable of spraying fire retardant on the forest.

他们还从一些欧洲邻国那里借来了几架大型飞机。

They've also had some very large plains loaned to them by some of their European neighbors.

所以该地区资源非常充足。

So there are a great deal of resources in the region.

但不得不说，尽管他们投入了这么多力量，火势仍然失控地燃烧着。

But it has to be said, despite all that power they're bringing to this, the fires continue to burn out of control.

所以这是一场激烈的战斗。

So it's a pitched battle.

他们投入了很多资源，但你知道，还远远没有控制住。

They're bringing a lot to it, but it is, you know, far from under control yet.

我们经常看到，在应对野火时，如何分配资源确实是个难题。

And we often see that there's real challenges when it comes to these responses to wildfires about where to prioritize your resources.

对吧？

Right?

在这次应对中，有没有出现一些紧张点？

Have there been some of those points of of tension when it comes to this response?

嗯，确实有。

Well, yeah, there have.

原因在于，波尔多周边地区有很多不同的元素。

And and and the reasons for that are that the region around Bordeaux has a lot of different sort of elements to it.

好的。

Okay.

海边有个半岛，叫拉弗雷尔半岛。

There is a peninsula out by the ocean that's called the La Freres Peninsula.

那里很受度假者欢迎，很多人都在那儿有度假屋。

That is very popular with holiday makers, and people have vacation homes out there.

我提到过的那个小镇拉波尔日，受损非常严重，居民基本上只能自生自灭，而其他地区，可能经济条件更好的地区，却得到了更多保护，已经有一些居民对此表达了不满。

There are already some complaints from residents of this little town I mentioned, La Porges, which was so heavily damaged that they were sort of essentially left to fend for themselves and that other areas, perhaps more economically advantaged areas, had more protection.

我们还没核实这些说法，但已经开始听到这类声音了。

We haven't confirmed those reports yet, but those are the types of things that you're beginning to hear about.

再往镇子方向靠近一些，有一系列非常敏感的军事设施，法国公司在那里为法国的核导弹库制造部件和推进剂。

Then much closer to town, you have a series of very sensitive military installations where French companies manufacture components and propellant for nuclear missile arsenal of France.

等等。

Wait.

暂停一下。

Time out.

不好意思。

I'm sorry.

说到波尔多，我首先想到的就是葡萄酒产业。

That we're talking about when I think of Bordeaux, I I definitely think of the wine industry.

还有旅游业。

I think of tourism.

你是说这个地区其实还有核设施，也可能受到这些野火的威胁？

You're saying that there's actually a nuclear facility in this area as well that could be in the line of these wildfires?

这听起来太可怕了。

That seems terrifying.

是的。

Yeah.

我马上就会讲到葡萄园。

I I'm gonna get to the vineyards.

别担心。

Don't worry about that.

但事实上，波尔多附近确实有生产火箭燃料的工厂，而且它们正好位于这些火灾的蔓延路径上。

But, there are in fact factories that make rocket fuel not far from Bordeaux and which lie in the path of these fires.

所以你可以想象，对当局来说，首要任务是防止火势蔓延到这些工厂附近，以免引发爆炸风险。

So you can imagine that for the authorities, the top priority is preventing the fires from getting close enough to these factories that it would raise a question about causing explosions.

因为那样一来，这场民事紧急事件的严重程度就会完全不一样了。

Because that would, of course, take this into a very, very different magnitude in terms of a of a civil emergency.

对。

Yeah.

我也这么觉得。

I I would say so.

好的。

Okay.

所以这本身显然是个令人担忧的问题。

So that's obviously a concern on its own.

但我们还是回到你之前提到的话题吧。

But let's go back to what you mentioned before.

我们来说说葡萄酒。

Let's get back to the wine.

我们知道这对当地经济来说非常重要。

We know this is something that's incredibly important to the local economy in this region.

那么，请告诉我火灾是如何影响这个地区的葡萄酒产业和葡萄园的。

So tell me how the fires are impacting the wine industry, the vineyards in this area.

这个问题很有意思，答案可能会让你有点意外。

It's an interesting question, and the answer might surprise you a little.

到目前为止，还没有葡萄园直接受到火灾影响。

None of the vineyards so far have been directly affected by fire.

真的吗？

Really?

这背后有几个原因。

And there are a number of reasons for that.

部分原因是地理因素。

Part of it is geographic.

波尔多的葡萄酒产业大多位于河的东岸，而野火发生在河的西岸，确切地说是在波尔多市的西侧。

A lot of the wine industry in Bordeaux is actually on the East side of the river, and the wildfires are on the West side of the river and indeed on the West side of the city of Bordeaux.

好的。

Okay.

所以现在有个缓冲带。

So it's got a buffer right now.

确实有个缓冲带。

There is a buffer.

另外还有一个问题，就是葡萄园通常能起到防火隔离带的作用，因为葡萄园本身植被很少。

There is also a separate issue, which is that vineyards can often act as a fire break because the nature of vineyards are there's very little brush.

它们打理得很精心。

They're very well tended.

周围的土壤通常比较干燥。

The soil around them tends to be fairly dry.

因此，它们并不是特别容易助长火势。

And as a result, they they aren't a particularly great accelerant for fires.

所以总的来说，这些野火期间没有葡萄园被烧毁。

So the long and short of it is no vineyard has erupted in flames during the course of these wildfires.

但这并不是葡萄酒行业问题的终点，因为实际情况是，葡萄园和城市本身一样，都被这片浓黑的烟云覆盖了。

But that isn't the end of the problem for the wine industry because what has happened is that the vineyards, like the city itself, have been covered with this very dark smoky cloud.

而最大的问题——目前还没有答案——是这些烟雾会不会在葡萄藤上停留足够长的时间，渗透到葡萄果实里。

And the big question, and it's an unresolved one so far, is whether the smoke will hang over the vines long enough to permeate into the grapes themselves.

如果真的渗透进去了，等到这些葡萄采收时，这个年份的葡萄酒会不会受到影响？

And if it does do that, will it leave this vintage when these grapes are harvested?

如果烟味足够浓，会不会让这个年份的葡萄酒带上一种烟熏味，甚至可能毁掉整个年份？

Will it leave this vintage with a kind of a smoky taste that could actually ruin the vintage where it's strong enough?

我想确认一下。

I just wanna clarify.

如果你说的这种情况真的发生了，那可不只是对葡萄酒爱好者是个打击。

If what you're describing actually happens, this isn't just like a blow to wine lovers.

这对整个地区来说，会是一个重大的经济打击。

Like, this would be a major economic blow to the region.

没错。

No?

是的。

Yes.

确实会。

It would.

我是说，葡萄酒是波尔多最重要的产业之一。

I mean, wine is one of the most important industries for Bordeaux.

也正是这个产业让波尔多闻名于世。

It's also the industry that has put Bordeaux on the map.

没错。

Sure.

而且，在这些火灾发生之前，葡萄种植者就已经面临着一系列问题了。

And even before these fires, the wine growers were facing a confluence of problems.

特朗普总统对法国葡萄酒征收的关税，这个问题你很了解，佐兰。

President Trump's tariffs on French wine, an issue that you know well, Zolan.

当然。

Of course.

不仅仅是火灾，还有连续几个夏天的极端高温，改变了收获周期。

And not just the fires, but successive summers of extreme heat, which have changed the harvest cycle.

这些高温也改变了葡萄的特性，使得生产波尔多闻名的那种口感平衡的葡萄酒变得更加困难。

They've also changed the nature of the grapes in a way that makes it harder to produce the kind of finely balanced wine that Bordeaux is so famous for.

所以我觉得当地人也意识到，他们生活的自然环境已经不再适合现在面临的气候了。

So I think the people who live there recognize that the natural habitat that they live in is no longer well suited to the kind of climate that they now face.

现在的气候更加恶劣和严酷，他们不太适应，而且这会让他们更难像祖祖辈辈那样谋生。

This is just a much more hostile and unforgiving climate and one for which they're not particularly well suited and one that will make it harder for them to make a living the way that they have for generations.

你描述的其实是一个长期的困境。

What you're describing is is a longer term struggle.

可能有些人醒来后会问，这到底是怎么回事？

There might be those who are waking up and asking, what the heck is going on?

我们是怎么走到这一步的？

How did we get here?

但你更想说的是，是多年来一系列步骤把我们带到了这个地步。

But you're more so saying there's been a series of steps over years that brought us to this point.

我知道我们现在聊的是波尔多，但我想说，西班牙那边也有毁灭性的火灾。

And I know we're talking about Bordeaux right now, but I should note there's also fires in Spain, devastating fires.

我们看到这股热浪正在更广泛地影响欧洲地区。

We're seeing this heat wave impact the European region more broadly.

那么问题来了，这算不算一个转折点？

And then I guess the question is, is this a tipping point?

不只是对波尔多，对整个国家甚至整个欧洲来说都是如此。

Not just for Bordeaux, but for the country or even Europe in general.

嗯，我相信奇科之前也提到过，欧洲的情况尤其严峻，因为它的升温速度比地球上任何其他大陆都快，而且历史上它并不适应这种干燥炎热的气候。

Well, as I'm sure Chico said earlier, Europe is in particularly exposed position because it's warming faster than any other continent on the planet and because it is not suited historically to these kinds of dry, hot climates.

我认为欧洲正面临一个时刻，人们真的在对自己说，我们不能继续像以前那样生活了。

I think that Europe is facing a moment where people are really saying to themselves, we can't keep living the way we have.

在我们即将进入的世界里，那种生活方式根本行不通。

It simply doesn't work in the world that we are now entering.

而与此同时，在欧洲层面，他们为实现经济净零排放而设定的雄心勃勃的目标，正在出现相当多的倒退。

And this comes at a time when, at a European level, there's quite a lot of backsliding on the ambitious targets that Europe set for making its economies a net zero.

也就是说，要吸收的温室气体量和排放到大气中的量一样多。

That is taking out as much greenhouse gases as they are putting into the atmosphere.

气候政策现在变得很有争议，尤其是在法国和其他国家的政治右翼中。

Climate policy has become controversial, particularly on the political right in France and other countries.

所以，尽管气候变化的证据越来越触目惊心，影响也越来越大，但真正正面应对气候变化的政治意愿反而有所减弱。

And so even as the evidence grows ever more dramatic of the changes to climate and the impacts of those changes, the political will to really confront climate change head on is actually weakened somewhat.

这真是个矛盾。

And that's a real paradox.

这很有意思。

This is fascinating.

我一直以为法国在这方面是领先的。

I literally think of France as a leader in this area.

《巴黎气候协定》啊。

Paris climate accords.

对吧？

Right?