The Daily - 来自《连载》系列:《预防主义者》 封面

来自《连载》系列:《预防主义者》

From Serial: 'The Preventionist'

本集简介

利哈伊谷这一离奇事件的曝光始末——它几乎被永远掩盖。 2023年夏天,记者戴安·尼里收到关于宾夕法尼亚州一名问题医生的线报。多个家庭声称当他们为孩子求医时,这位儿科医生诬告他们虐待儿童,导致孩子被强制带离。《预防主义者》追溯了这名医生横跨多州长达数十年的执业生涯,并探讨了"儿童虐待儿科医师"这类新兴权威专家的崛起——他们的专业判断往往令人难以质疑。 立即订阅,请访问nytimes.com/podcasts或在Apple Podcasts与Spotify收听。您也可通过此链接在常用播客应用中订阅:https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher。下载纽约时报客户端获取更多播客与有声文章,请访问nytimes.com/app。

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Speaker 0

互联网文化如何重塑世界各地的成人礼仪式?

How is Internet culture shaping coming of age rituals around the world?

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而'跟我一起准备'视频又是如何触达新受众的?

And how are get ready with me videos reaching a new audience?

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大家好。

Hi there.

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我是伊莎贝拉·罗塞里尼。

I'm Isabella Roussellini.

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在欧莱雅集团最新一期《这不是美妆播客》中,我们将通过一位伦敦科技记者和一位正在筹备十五岁成人礼的墨西哥少女,了解美妆如何塑造互联网文化。

In the latest episode of this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group, we learn about how beauty is shaping the Internet from a London based tech journalist and a Mexican teenager preparing for her quinceanera.

Speaker 0

现在就在你喜欢的播客平台上收听吧。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

Speaker 1

嘿,各位。

Hey, everyone.

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我是瑞秋。

It's Rachel.

Speaker 1

今天我们有点不一样的内容。

We're doing something a little different today.

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这周我们将暂停分享周日惯常的文化特辑,因为今天想推荐同事们在Cereal平台制作的新系列首期节目。

We're gonna take a pause this week from the culture specials that we've been sharing on Sundays, because today, we wanted to share the first episode of a new series from our colleagues over at Cereal.

Speaker 1

这个系列叫做《预防主义者》。

It's called The Preventionist.

Speaker 1

和他们多数节目一样,这是个非凡的故事。

Like so many of their shows, it's a remarkable story.

Speaker 1

本期内容涉及多个主题:包括家庭如何应对意外重大挑战,以及一位公务员在复杂处境中坚守正义的故事。

This one is about a bunch of things, including families navigating surprising and enormous challenges, and a public official who's trying to do the right thing in a very complicated situation.

Speaker 1

非常精彩。

It's really good.

Speaker 1

今天我们分享的这集节目是一个三集系列的第一部分,您可以在任何收听播客的地方搜索《预防者》找到它。

The episode we're sharing today is the first of a three part series, which you can find by searching The Preventionist wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1

请注意,整个系列限时免费提供,尽情追剧吧。

And take note, the whole series is available for free for a limited time, so binge away.

Speaker 1

好的。

Okay.

Speaker 1

周日特别团队下周将回归节目,这里是《预防者》的第一集。

So the Sunday special team will be back with the show next week, and here is the first episode of The Preventionist.

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2023年8月的一个傍晚,在宾夕法尼亚州阿伦敦的当地政府官员会议上,我看到一位女士走向麦克风。

One evening in August 2023, I watched a woman step up to the mic during a meeting of local government officials in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

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她很年轻,二十出头,容貌出众,穿着淡粉色西装外套。

She was young, early twenties, strikingly pretty, wearing a pale pink blazer.

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她个子娇小,身高不到五英尺,所以不得不踮起脚尖才能够到麦克风。

She's short, five foot nothing, so she had to stand on her tiptoes to reach the microphone.

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她只有五分钟时间讲述一个基本是所有父母噩梦的故事。

She had five minutes to convey basically any parent's nightmare.

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我两个月大的儿子正开心地喝着奶瓶里的奶,突然开始呛奶,脸色发青,身体瘫软。

My two month old son was happily drinking milk from his bottle when he quickly started choking, turned blue, and went limp.

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我男友把孩子抱到尿布台时,我抓起一个防呛装置,他开始组装它。

My boyfriend transported our son to the changing table as I grabbed an anti choking device and my boyfriend began assembling it.

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我从未如此拼命地冲上楼梯,声嘶力竭地呼救。

It never ran so fast up the stairs screaming at the top of my lungs for help.

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她描述了屋里的恐慌场景——一个婴儿停止了呼吸。

She described the panic in the house, a baby not breathing.

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她和孩子的父亲——她的男友,与她的父母同住。

She and her boyfriend, the father of the child, lived with her parents.

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当婴儿开始呛奶时,所有人都在家。

Everyone was home when the baby started choking.

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我父亲冲下楼立即开始做胸部按压,同时我拨打了911。

My father rushed downstairs and immediately started doing chest compressions as I dialed 911.

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设备按压两次后,我儿子恢复了意识,大口喘气并咳出了奶液。

Two pumps of the device and my son was conscious, gasping for air, and coughing up milk.

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起作用了。

It worked.

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感谢上帝,他们心想。

Thank God, they thought.

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他们松了口气但仍心有余悸。

They were relieved but rattled.

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为确保婴儿无恙,他们将他送往急诊室。

They wanted to make sure the baby was okay, so they sent him to the ER.

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那晚我们救了他的命。

We saved his life that night.

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但抵达利哈伊谷医院后,诊断结果急转直下,完全超出了我的心理准备。

But upon arriving at Lehigh Valley Hospital, the diagnosis quickly became something so different, something nobody could have ever prepared me for.

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事实证明五分钟能说很多话,而她还有四分钟时间。

A lot can be said in five minutes, it turns out, and she still had four to go.

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她描述了全家人如何赶往医院。

She described how the whole family went to the hospital.

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她和男友,她父母,后来他父母也来了。

She and her boyfriend, her parents, later his parents too.

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但婴儿接受检查后,她和男友被要求离开。

But after their baby was examined, she and her boyfriend were asked to leave.

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因为其中一位医生提出了某种推测。

Because it turned out one of the doctors had a theory.

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她对我父亲和婆婆声称,我们这对年轻初为人父母的夫妻因不堪婴儿哭闹而暴力摇晃他,并说坦白只会对我们更有利。

She stated to my father and mother-in-law that we are young first time parents who got frustrated with our baby and violently shook him to make him stop crying, and a confession would only make things easier for us.

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医院声称,他们关于牛奶、窒息和救命设备的故事全是谎言。

Their story about the milk and the choking and the lifesaving device, the hospital was saying, that's a lie.

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这些年轻父母被要求承认自己失控并用力摇晃了婴儿。

And that these young parents should just admit that they'd lost their patients and shaken the baby hard.

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他们被告知必须离开医院,不能带走孩子,整整七个月后孩子才能回家。

They were told to leave the hospital without their baby and he wouldn't come home for seven whole months.

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我是一位21岁的母亲,错过了与长子相处的七个月时光。

I'm a 21 year old mother who lost seven months with her firstborn son.

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我是一位哺乳期母亲,因为被禁止喂养孩子而回奶。

I'm a nursing mother who lost her milk because she wasn't allowed to feed her baby.

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我是一位新手妈妈,通过视频通话看着我的第一个孩子成长。

I'm a first time mom who watched her first child meet milestones over FaceTime.

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我是一位产后母亲,承受着孩子被夺走的悲痛与创伤。

I'm a postpartum mom dealing with the grief and the trauma of my son being ripped from my arms.

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我是一位在医院寻求帮助的焦虑母亲,却被当作罪犯对待。

I'm a concerned mother in a hospital looking for help, but instead, we were treated like criminals.

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我是一位因为医生误诊而在24小时内失去一切的妈妈。

And I'm a mom who lost everything in less than twenty four hours due to one doctor's misdiagnosis.

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够了,真的够了。

Enough is enough.

Speaker 2

这不是我第一次听到类似的故事。

This wasn't my first time hearing a story like this.

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多年来我一直在报道儿童福利系统,写过许多类似案例:父母声称被诬告虐待,孩子被无故带走。

I've been reporting for a few years on the child welfare system, and I've written about similar situations: parents who say they were falsely accused of abuse, that their kids were taken from them without cause.

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2023年,我收到一系列来自利哈伊谷的邮件,那里是宾夕法尼亚州东部费城以北的地区,小镇与牧场相接。

In 2023, I got a series of emails from people in the Lehigh Valley, a part of Eastern Pennsylvania, North Of Philadelphia, where small towns bleed into rural pastures.

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我还接到过那里人们打来的电话。

I got phone calls from people there, too.

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有人说,基本上,如果你觉得你上次写的故事很糟糕,那你绝对想不到利哈伊谷发生了什么。

One person said, essentially, if you think that last story you wrote was bad, you won't believe what's happening in the Lehigh Valley.

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于是我开始调查,就这样我参加了一场公开会议,听到一个婴儿因呛奶而被从父母身边带走,几乎整个婴儿期都未能团聚。

So I started looking into it, which is how I ended up at this public meeting, hearing about a baby who choked on milk and was taken away from his parents for most of his infancy.

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如今,经过两年与家庭、医护人员和社工的交谈,我可以告诉你:那位来电者是对的。

And now, after two years of talking to families and medical personnel and caseworkers, I can tell you: that caller was right.

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利哈伊谷发生的事,绝对不正常。

Whatever was happening in the Lehigh Valley, it was not normal.

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我是黛安·尼瑞,这里是Serial Productions与《纽约时报》联合制作的《预防主义者》。

I'm Diane Neary, and from Serial Productions and The New York Times, this is The Preventionist.

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我是AO·斯科特。

This is AO Scott.

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我是《纽约时报》的评论员。

I'm a critic at The New York Times.

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如今电影、书籍、电视剧和歌曲层出不穷,令人眼花缭乱。

These days, there are so many movies and books and television shows and songs that it's hard to make sense of it all.

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在《纽约时报》,我们评论员的工作就是尽可能筛选这些内容,提供建议和推荐,引导你关注值得花费时间精力的作品。

At The New York Times, what the critics do is sort through as much of that as we can to come up with advice, with recommendations, to guide you toward the stuff that's worth your time and attention.

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但我们不止提供指南。

But we don't only offer guidance.

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评论家的职责是帮你理解事物,让你思考电影如何与历史政治产生共鸣,歌曲如何激发情感,艺术品如何以唯有艺术才能实现的魔力照亮世界。

Critics are here to help you make sense of things, to get you thinking about the way a movie connects with history or politics, the way a song opens up emotion, how a piece of art illuminates the world in the magical way that only art can do.

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实际上,我和其他评论员的工作与《纽约时报》所有记者每日的使命一致——为你提供清晰的视角,更重要的是,让你更深刻地理解这个世界。

Really, what I do and what the other critics here do is part of the same project that all of the journalists at The New York Times work on every day to give you clarity and perspective and, above all, a deeper understanding of the world.

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订阅《纽约时报》不仅意味着获取头条新闻,更是理解万物如何相互关联。

When you subscribe to The New York Times, it's not just here are the headlines, but here's the way everything fits together.

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如需订阅,请访问nytimes.com/subscribe。

If you'd like to subscribe, please go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

Speaker 2

我想解释一下利哈伊谷这一非凡情况最初是如何曝光的,因为差一点就石沉大海,全靠一个人坚持追查到底。

I want to explain how this extraordinary situation in the Lehigh Valley came to light in the first place, because it almost didn't, except that this one guy would not let it go.

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他叫马克·平斯利。

His name is Mark Pinsley.

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他既不是活动家,也不是医疗专家,更不是愤愤不平的家长。

And he's not an activist or a medical expert or an aggrieved parent.

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他是财务主管,管钱的。

He's a controller, a money guy.

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在认识马克之前,我连财务主管是干什么的都不太清楚。

I barely knew what a controller was until I met Mark.

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马克在当上这个职位前,自己也搞不明白。

Mark barely knew what that was before he became one.

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他曾代表宾夕法尼亚州民主党竞选州参议员,但落选了。

He'd run for state senate on the democratic ticket in Pennsylvania and lost.

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落选后,党组织又来找我说:

And when I came off that loss, the party came to me again and said, hey.

Speaker 5

你愿意担任利哈伊县的财务主管吗?

Would you like to be controller of Lehigh County?

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我当时就懵了,利哈伊县财务主管是干啥的?

And I was like, what is controller of Lehigh County?

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所以我真的完全没概念。

So I really had no idea.

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马克后来了解到,财务主管负责审计县财政,确保没有欺诈和纳税人资金的浪费。

Mark learned a controller is in charge of auditing the county's finances, making sure there's no fraud, no waste of taxpayer money.

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马克学过金融,曾为大大小小的公司管理过预算。

Mark had studied finance, and he'd managed budgets for both big and small companies.

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他现在还经营着一家小型护肤品公司。

He still owns a small skincare business.

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这看起来是个不错的选择。

It seemed like a good fit.

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所以我就是这么做的。

So that's what I did.

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我参选并获胜了,我赢得了控制权。

I ran and I won, I won controller.

Speaker 5

我的目标是思考如何利用这个职位帮助人们,并在财务方面发挥创意。

And my goal was to figure out how I could help the people using that position and being creative around financing.

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马克是个有抱负的人。

Mark's an ambitious guy.

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他想用自己的技能做更多事,而不仅仅是审计县里的工资单。

He wanted to use his skills to do more than just audit the county's payroll.

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而且他做得很好。

And he was good at it.

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在最初几年里,他调查了一家对处方药超额收费的大型制药公司。

In his first few years, he investigated a big pharmaceutical company that was overcharging for prescription drugs.

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他还发现一家县立疗养院未能收取数十万美元的费用。

And he discovered a county nursing home had failed to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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他的审计工作为县里和纳税人节省了数百万美元。

His audits have saved the county and its taxpayers millions.

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听马克说,他下一个大项目的想法有点出人意料。

To hear Mark tell it, the idea for his next big project kind of came out of left field.

Speaker 2

有一天,他和妻子外出采购食品杂货。

One day, he and his wife were out grocery shopping.

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我讨厌排队。

I hate waiting in lines.

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我妻子在排队,或者说我们在排队等着结账。

My wife was in, or we were in line to pay for groceries.

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我当时就想,干脆去看会儿抖音吧。

And I'm like, I'm just gonna go watch TikTok.

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于是我刷着抖音消磨时间,滑动屏幕时突然出现了一个视频。

So I was watching TikTok, just wasting time scrolling away, and a video came up.

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你们最爱的作家在此,要告诉你们一个完胜的故事。

Your favorite author here speaking to tell you about a complete win.

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一周前,马克差点就划走了这个视频,首先因为他最喜欢的作家是斯蒂芬·金。

A week ago, I Mark almost swiped away because for one, his favorite author is Stephen King.

Speaker 2

而这个女人,他根本不认识,却停留了片刻。

And this woman, he didn't even know who she was, but he lingered.

Speaker 5

然后她说出了'阿伦敦'这个词。

And then she said Allentown.

Speaker 5

于是我就开始认真听了。

And like so then I then I paid attention.

Speaker 5

接着她又提到'儿童与青少年',我就更专注了。

And then she said children and youth, and I was paying more attention.

Speaker 2

阿伦敦位于莱希县,而儿童与青少年服务办公室是县级机构。

Allentown is in Lehi County, and the Office of Children and Youth Services is a county agency.

Speaker 2

换句话说,这正是马克的管辖范围。

In other words, Mark's territory.

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视频中讲话的女性不仅是作家,还是位律师,曾代理一对夫妇与当地医院长达一年的斗争,驳回了关于虐待儿童的虚假指控。

And the woman talking in the video was not only an author, she was a lawyer who'd represented a couple in a year long fight against the false accusation made by a local hospital of child abuse.

Speaker 2

他们胜诉了。

They'd won.

Speaker 2

县里已经撤销了要求剥夺这对夫妇孩子监护权的申请。

The county had withdrawn its petition to remove the couple's child.

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马克不禁怀疑,如果县政府总在打必输的官司,那过程中可能也在浪费资金。

Mark wondered if the county was wasting time on losing fights, it might also be wasting money in the process.

Speaker 5

我当时想,那里可能有笔钱。

I'm like, there might be money there.

Speaker 5

让我去查查看。

Let me go find out.

Speaker 5

所以我立刻发了邮件。

And so like I immediately emailed right away.

Speaker 2

他联系了TikTok中提到的那对夫妇,表示想了解更多事情的经过。

He wrote to the couple mentioned in the TikTok, saying he wanted to understand more about what had happened.

Speaker 2

他写道,引用原话,'坦白说,我一直对从事儿童青少年工作的人抱有好感'。

He wrote, quote, to be upfront, I have always had a good feeling about the people that work for children and youth.

Speaker 2

'我觉得他们工作繁重却收入微薄'。

I have felt that they were overworked and underpaid.

Speaker 2

引用结束。

End quote.

Speaker 2

但他表示

But he said

Speaker 5

如果你愿意分享更多,我洗耳恭听。

If you are willing to share more, I am willing to listen.

Speaker 5

感谢您的时间。

Thank you for your time.

Speaker 5

马克。

Mark.

Speaker 5

等我发完邮件,就开始帮忙卸下 groceries(食品杂货)。

And then by the time I was done emailing, I helped starting to unload the groceries.

Speaker 2

24小时内,那对夫妇就回复了。

Within twenty four hours, the couple wrote back.

Speaker 2

马克在会议室准备了视频通话,要与那位母亲和律师连线。

Mark set up his conference room for a video call with the mother and the lawyer.

Speaker 2

在他的屏幕上,他看到他们的脸突然出现。

And on his screen, he saw their faces pop up.

Speaker 5

他们带我了解了基本情况。

They walked me through like the basics.

Speaker 5

我是说,这不仅仅是基础知识,而是一个半小时的电话。

I mean, it was more than just the basics, but it was an hour and a half phone call.

Speaker 5

大部分时间都是那位母亲在说话。

The mom did most of the speaking.

Speaker 2

她告诉马克她的两个儿子都有复杂的医疗需求。

She told Mark about how both her boys had complex medical needs.

Speaker 2

一个患有自闭症和自身免疫性疾病。

One had autism and an autoimmune disorder.

Speaker 2

另一个患有自闭症和代谢紊乱。

The other had autism and a metabolic disorder.

Speaker 2

她说她和丈夫多年来努力工作,为儿子们寻找合适的治疗师、治疗方案、药物、维生素和补充剂,以使他们稳定下来。

She said she and her husband had spent years working hard to find their boys the right therapists and treatments, medicines and vitamins and supplements to get them stable.

Speaker 2

据她所说,他们基本上成功了。

And by her account, they mostly succeeded.

Speaker 2

但有一天,她的一个儿子开始行为异常。

But then one day, one of their boys started to behave erratically.

Speaker 2

他们带他去了阿伦敦的利哈伊谷儿童医院,这位母亲说,一位医生对这个病例感到困惑,认为对男孩们的干预似乎过多。

They took him to the Lehigh Valley Children's Hospital in Allentown, where the mom said a doctor puzzled over the case and what seemed like too many interventions for the boys.

Speaker 2

她说,医生从未与她或她的丈夫见面,就诊断出代理性孟乔森综合症,这是一种心理障碍,父母为了引起注意甚至故意伤害孩子,然后为这些伤害寻求治疗。

She said that without ever meeting with her or her husband, the doctor diagnosed Munchausen syndrome by proxy, a psychological disorder in which a parent fakes their child's illnesses for attention or even intentionally hurts them, and then seeks treatment for those injuries.

Speaker 2

这是电影中常见的故事情节,但在现实中,这是一种罕见的情况。

It's a popular storyline in movies, but in reality, it's a rare condition.

Speaker 2

在这种情况下,这位母亲说她和丈夫都被指控患有此病,并且两人都被禁止见他们的儿子。

In this case, the mom said both she and her husband were accused of having it, and both of them were barred from seeing their son.

Speaker 2

医院拒绝了我为本次系列报道提出的采访请求。

The hospital declined my interview requests for this series.

Speaker 2

但在邮件中,一位代表写道:'我们坚信利哈伊谷健康网络没有做错任何事,这家医院的优秀医生和护士实际上做了件好事。'

But in an email, a representative wrote, quote, We feel strongly that Lehigh Valley Health Network has done nothing wrong and that the good doctors and nurses working at this hospital have actually done a good thing.

Speaker 2

他们已采取措施防范儿童虐待,这是宾夕法尼亚州法律规定的义务。

They have taken steps to protect against child abuse, which are legally required under Pennsylvania law.

Speaker 2

引述结束。

End quote.

Speaker 2

在视频通话中,这位母亲和她的律师向马克解释,虐童指控进展迅速——从医院举报到儿童青少年部门调查,再到家事法庭审理。

In the video call, the mother and her lawyer explained to Mark that the child abuse accusation progressed quickly, from the hospital to an investigation by children and youth to family court.

Speaker 2

这对父母失去了对小儿子一个月的监护权,对大儿子的监护权则被剥夺了一年。

The parents lost custody of their younger son for a month, their older son for a year.

Speaker 5

所以这是个非常令人心碎的故事。

And so it was a very emotional story.

Speaker 5

作为父母,你不可能听完后觉得'哦,就这么回事'。

Like, you can't come away as a parent and be like, well, hey, that was that was that.

Speaker 5

谁会在乎呢?

Who cares?

Speaker 5

起初我以为这只是两个不幸的可怜人。

At first, I just thought that like this is two unfortunate souls.

Speaker 5

这对夫妇只是被卷入了某些事情。

So the husband and the wife got caught up in something.

Speaker 5

但随着深入调查,我很快意识到这是个系统性问题。

And then I started looking in and it just became very quickly apparent that there was a problem.

Speaker 5

非常迅速地意识到了。

Very quickly.

Speaker 2

这个家庭还介绍了其他有类似遭遇的家庭与马克取得联系。

This family knew of other families whom they put in touch with Mark.

Speaker 2

他制作了一份电子表格,给每个家庭分配一种颜色以便追踪。

He made a spreadsheet assigning each family a color so he could keep track.

Speaker 2

绿色家庭,蓝色家庭。

The green family, the blue family.

Speaker 2

他刚才交谈的那对夫妇是灰色家庭。

The couple he just talked to were the gray family.

Speaker 2

他知道不能轻信他们表面上的说辞。

He knew he couldn't take their stories at face value.

Speaker 2

于是他开始核实事实,尽管他讨厌这样做。

So he started fact checking them, which he hated.

Speaker 2

向人们索要证明文件很尴尬,但他们还是提供了。

It was awkward to ask people for proof, documentation, but they produced it.

Speaker 2

然后他不得不阅读那些文件,包括医疗记录和儿童福利报告,足有数百页。

And then he had to read that documentation, medical paperwork and child welfare reports, hundreds of pages.

Speaker 5

我刚开始时也是个新手。

And I was a neophyte about this when I started too.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

所以有些专业术语我一开始也不懂。

So like, I didn't know what certain terms meant.

Speaker 5

刚开始时我会把术语记下来,方便以后记忆。

And so in the beginning, I'm like writing down the terms, like, so that I would remember them.

Speaker 5

很多时候我不得不回头重读某些章节。

And so many times I would have to go back later and reread a section.

Speaker 5

那时我才真正理解其中的含义。

And it had a whole new meaning to me.

Speaker 2

他搜索了谷歌,还得到了团队中某人的帮助。

He searched Google, got some help from someone on his staff.

Speaker 2

他开始解读这套系统。

He began to decipher the system.

Speaker 2

他了解到,在利哈伊县,如果家长涉嫌虐待儿童(在此案例中是由医院医生怀疑的),该医生会拨打州虐待儿童热线。

He learned that in Lehi County, if a parent is suspected of child abuse, in this case, suspected by a doctor at the hospital, that doctor calls the state child abuse hotline.

Speaker 2

接线员记录报告后将其转交给儿童与青少年服务中心(简称CYS)。

An operator there takes down the report and sends it to Children and Youth Services, known as CYS.

Speaker 2

随后CYS有两个月时间做出判定。

And then CYS has two months to make a determination.

Speaker 5

作为社工,你有60天时间来决定案件属于:无根据(即完全不怀疑虐待)、有迹象(指存在大量证据表明当事人很可能是施虐者)

You have sixty days as a caseworker to decide whether if something is unfounded, meaning we really don't suspect child abuse at all, indicated, which is supposed to mean that there's a lot of evidence that kind of makes it suspicious that you might well be a child abuser.

Speaker 2

或是第三类:成立(意味着CYS和法庭都认定你为施虐者)。

Or a third category, founded, meaning that both CYS and a court have found that you're an abuser.

Speaker 2

马克在文件中反复看到一个陌生术语:儿童虐待儿科医生。

There was one more term Mark had never heard before, which kept popping up in the paperwork: child abuse pediatrician.

Speaker 2

马克发现家庭档案中几乎所有的指控都来自这类医生——儿童虐待儿科医生(简称CAP)。

Mark realized almost all of the allegations in the family's files had been made by this kind of doctor, a child abuse pediatrician, CAP for short.

Speaker 2

经过更多搜索,马克了解到:

More Googling and Mark learned this.

Speaker 2

CAP是专门接受过如何辨别伤害是否由虐待造成培训的医生。

CAPs are doctors who are trained specifically in how to tell whether an injury is the result of abuse.

Speaker 2

例如区分因秋千跌落导致的骨折与暴力扭折导致的骨折。

To tell the difference, say, between an arm broken by falling off the swing set versus an arm broken after being twisted by force.

Speaker 2

他们通常在儿童医院工作(包括利哈伊谷儿童医院),在保护儿童安全方面发挥关键作用。

They often work in children's hospitals, including Lehigh Valley's Children's Hospital, and they play a crucial role in keeping children safe.

Speaker 2

根据最新政府数据,美国每年有超过300万儿童涉嫌遭受虐待。

According to the most recent government data, every year, more than three million children in The US are victims of suspected abuse.

Speaker 2

CAP的工作就是甄别其中哪些儿童需要保护。

CAPS help figure out which of those children need protecting.

Speaker 2

风险显然很高。

The stakes are obviously high.

Speaker 2

2023年,约有2000名儿童因虐待或忽视而死亡。

In 2023, about two thousand children died from abuse or neglect.

Speaker 2

马克在查阅家庭档案时注意到,CAP(儿童保护小组)的意见具有很大影响力,这在他看来是合理的。

Mark was noticing, reading the family's files, how much influence a CAP's opinion carried, which made sense to Mark.

Speaker 2

毕竟,CAP成员都是受过专业医疗训练的专家。

After all, the CAPs are the medically trained experts.

Speaker 2

但反过来想,如果CAP判断错误会怎样?

But then again, what happened if the CAP got it wrong?

Speaker 2

在他阅读的案例记录中,就有这样的先例。

In the case histories he was reading, there were examples of that happening.

Speaker 2

比如他标注为'黄色家庭'的那份档案。

The file he'd labeled the yellow family, for instance.

Speaker 5

这位母亲曾和我聊过,她本人是名护士。

This mom had talked to me about like, and she was a nurse.

Speaker 5

她向我讲述了一个案例:她丈夫打电话说孩子突然无法坐立。

So she had talked to me about this case where her husband called her and said that the child wasn't able to sit up.

Speaker 2

这是个原本能正常坐立的孩子。

This was a kid who could normally sit up.

Speaker 2

孩子18个月大,丈夫说他在和兄弟姐妹玩耍时从沙发上摔了下来。

He was 18 old and the husband said he had fallen off the couch while playing with his siblings.

Speaker 2

第二天早上,孩子似乎受伤了,一坐起来就会后仰摔倒。

The next morning, he seemed hurt and couldn't sit up without falling backwards.

Speaker 5

于是她联系了儿科医生。

So she calls her pediatrician.

Speaker 5

儿科医生说:'带他们去医院吧。'

The pediatrician says, you know, take it, take them to the hospital.

Speaker 5

在这个具体案例中,存在肋骨骨折的情况。

And in this particular instance, like there was, a fracture of the ribs.

Speaker 5

我记得是有两根肋骨正在愈合的骨折。

I think it was two fractures of the ribs that were healing.

Speaker 2

进一步检查显示孩子共有四根肋骨骨折,处于不同的愈合阶段。

Further testing revealed the child had a total of four broken ribs in various stages of healing.

Speaker 2

也就是说,这些骨折不可能都是当天从沙发上摔下来造成的。

As in, fractures that could not have all happened that day by, say, falling off the couch.

Speaker 2

父母讲述的情况与医生看到的伤势不符。

The story the parents had told didn't match the injuries doctors were seeing.

Speaker 5

这个案例对我来说比较棘手,因为孩子出现了骨折。

So this one was a harder one for me because the child had broken bones.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

你就会想,好吧。

And you're like, okay.

Speaker 5

这个情况看起来有点不对劲。

Well, like, this one seems a little off.

Speaker 2

这位戴着棒球帽的医生对父亲产生了怀疑。

The doctor, a cap, was suspicious of the father.

Speaker 2

不同愈合阶段的骨折可能表明存在持续伤害模式,而父亲坚称孩子是摔伤的。

Rractures at various stages of healing could point toward a pattern of injury, And the father was the one who claimed the child had fallen.

Speaker 5

而母亲则非常坚决。

And the mom was just like, she was adamant.

Speaker 5

坚称父亲没有这样做。

Like, the father didn't do this.

Speaker 5

你明白吗?

You know?

Speaker 5

这怎么可能呢?

Like, there's no way.

Speaker 5

你知道吗?

You know?

Speaker 5

我们花了很长时间才怀孕,经历了种种困难。

It took us a long time to get pregnant, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2

这位母亲是护士,她开始自己展开调查。

The mom was a nurse, and she started her own research.

Speaker 2

还有什么能解释这些伤痕?

What else could explain the injuries?

Speaker 2

可能是遗传病?

A genetic condition, maybe?

Speaker 2

与此同时,本案的负责人坚持认为这是虐待行为。

Meanwhile, the cap in this case was firm in her finding of abuse.

Speaker 2

据母亲说,医生甚至提出了难以想象的建议,让她离开丈夫,带着孩子,'永远不要回头'。

According to the mom, the doctor even suggested the unthinkable, that she leave her husband, take the children, and, quote, never look back.

Speaker 2

这位母亲说儿童福利部门'不断逼迫她申请离婚'才能保住孩子。

The mom said CYS, quote, badgered her to file for divorce in order to keep her children.

Speaker 2

最终

And eventually

Speaker 5

她真的离婚了。

She actually got a divorce.

Speaker 5

换作是我也会这么做。

And and I would have done the same thing.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

虽然我的直觉告诉我,我绝不会让这种事发生。

Even though my gut instinct is like, I'm not going to let this happen.

Speaker 5

我绝不会让这种事发生在我孩子身上。

Well, there's no way I'm going let this happen to my kid.

Speaker 5

那位母亲却说,不,我就是不相信。

And the mother was like, no, I just don't believe it.

Speaker 5

我相信这里面有遗传因素。

I believe there's something genetic going on.

Speaker 5

我坚信这一点。

I believe this.

Speaker 5

或者现在该说前夫了,她和他离婚了,对吧,他还进了监狱。

Or the former husband now, she divorces him, right, goes to jail.

Speaker 5

与此同时,这位母亲继续工作。

And in the meantime, the mother keeps working.

Speaker 5

她有两个半月时间都无法进行所需的基因检测。

She can't get a genetic test for whatever it was, two and a half months.

Speaker 2

当她终于在另一家医院做了基因检测后,诊断结果出来了。

When she finally did get a genetic test at a different hospital, a diagnosis came back.

Speaker 2

一型成骨不全症。

Type one osteogenesis imperfecta.

Speaker 5

你猜怎么着?

And wouldn't you believe it?

Speaker 5

这孩子患有脆骨病。

The child has brittle bone disease.

Speaker 2

就在同一天,她的前夫被释放出狱。

That same day, her now ex husband was released from jail.

Speaker 2

一个月后,针对他的所有刑事指控都被撤销了。

And one month later, all the criminal charges against him were dropped.

Speaker 5

真是让人无法忍受。

Like, I can't stand it.

Speaker 2

马克特已经采访了十几户家庭,此时他已达到了极限。

Market interviewed more than a dozen families by this point, and he'd reached his limit.

Speaker 5

就像,我无法忍受美国或宾夕法尼亚州是那样的。

Like, I I can't live knowing that America is like that or that Pennsylvania is like that.

Speaker 5

就像,我必须为此做些什么。

Like, I have to do something about it.

Speaker 2

提醒一下,马克是一名审计官。

A reminder, Mark is a controller.

Speaker 2

他对儿童福利服务没有任何监管权。

He has zero oversight of child welfare services.

Speaker 2

他无法干预儿童青少年服务局的程序。

He can't intervene in CYS procedures.

Speaker 2

他不能决定医院政策。

He can't dictate hospital policy.

Speaker 2

但他能做的是查看资金流向,查明这些花费了县政府多少钱。

But what he can do is look at the money, find out what all this was costing the county.

Speaker 2

他可以将这些信息公开。

And he could make that public.

Speaker 2

他可以撰写一份报告,向能改变儿童青少年服务局政策的利哈伊县委员会施压。

He could write a report that might put pressure on the people who could change policy at CYS, the Lehigh County Board of Commissioners.

Speaker 2

马克开始计算这些成本。

Mark started tallying up the costs.

Speaker 2

社工、律师、法官的时间都由县政府支付。

Caseworkers, attorneys, judges, the county pays for time.

Speaker 2

县政府还支付寄养费用和强制心理评估费用。

The county pays for foster care and for mandated psychological evaluations.

Speaker 2

当法官要求父母和孩子接受治疗时,县政府也会支付相关费用。

When a judge orders parents and kids to do therapy, the county pays for that too.

Speaker 2

如果虐待指控被证明是错误的,对马克来说这似乎是种财务浪费。

If the abuse allegation turned out to be wrong, that seemed like financial waste to Mark.

Speaker 2

他现在正愤怒地想着这些家庭。

He was on a tear now thinking about these families.

Speaker 5

我的意思是,随着了解更多故事,我晚上睡不着觉有两个原因。

I mean, as I learned more stories, I couldn't sleep at night for two reasons.

Speaker 5

第一,我知道我让他们再次经历创伤;第二,我现在真的相信他们了。

I a, I knew that I'm putting them through their trauma again, and b, I actually now believe them.

Speaker 5

我当时就想,你知道,我恨不得立刻完成这份报告。

And I'm like, you know, I I can't get this report done fast enough.

Speaker 5

真的,我恨不能马上把这份报告写完。

Like, I literally can't get this report done fast enough.

Speaker 5

我现在每天早晨6点就起床开始写报告。

I am like, now I'm waking up at 06:00 in the morning starting to write the report.

Speaker 5

为了赶出这份报告,我每天都熬到半夜才睡。

I'm not going to bed until midnight to get this report out.

Speaker 2

除了金钱问题,马克还分析了该州关于儿童虐待指控的年度数据。

Apart from the money, Mark also crunched the state's annual data on child abuse allegations.

Speaker 2

当他将利哈伊谷与宾州其他地区对比时,发现的结果令人震惊。

And what he saw when he compared the Lehigh Valley to the rest of the state was striking.

Speaker 2

全宾州三分之一的代理性孟乔森综合征病例诊断都来自利哈伊谷地区。

A third of the state's cases of Munchausen by proxy, a third of those diagnoses, in all of Pennsylvania, had come from the Lehigh Valley region.

Speaker 2

虽然总体数字不大,但如此高的比例让他无法理解——毕竟该地区人口仅占宾州总人口的3%。

The numbers were small overall, but still, that high percentage made no sense to him, especially since the region is home to just three percent of the state's 18 population.

Speaker 5

所以肯定有什么不对劲。

So something's not right.

Speaker 5

这里有问题。

There's a problem.

Speaker 5

我开始联系所有的专员。

I start contacting all of the commissioners.

Speaker 5

我给他们每个人都打了电话。

I'm calling each one of them.

Speaker 5

我真的希望你们能听听这个。

Like, I really want you to take a listen to this.

Speaker 5

我们是否...你们愿意和家属谈谈吗?

Are we are are you willing to talk to families?

Speaker 2

他反复联系他们每个人,试图安排会面。

He contacted each of them repeatedly, trying to set up meetings.

Speaker 2

大多数专员都避开了他。

Most of the commissioners avoided him.

Speaker 2

有些人同意谈谈。

Some agreed to talk.

Speaker 2

他说他告诉他们关于孟乔森综合征诊断率异常高的情况,并表示如果存在误诊,他认为这绝对值得调查。

He said he told them about the crazy high Munchausen stat, and that if Munchausen syndrome was being misdiagnosed, he thought there was certainly cause to investigate that.

Speaker 2

所有这些行为,除了错误和伤害家庭外,还可能让县政府面临诉讼,因为儿童青少年服务局是负责带走孩子的机构。

And all of it, aside from being wrong and damaging to families, could open up the county to lawsuits since CYS is the agency responsible for removing the kids.

Speaker 2

马克说有些人愿意倾听,但没有人愿意采取行动。

Mark says some of them were willing to listen, but none was willing to take action.

Speaker 2

他甚至提出让他们直接与一些家庭联系。

He even offered to put them directly in touch with some of the families.

Speaker 2

他们拒绝了。

They declined.

Speaker 2

除此之外,马克说他联系了儿童青少年服务局和人类服务部的县主管。

On top of that, Mark says he contacted the county directors of CYS and the Department of Human Services.

Speaker 2

我联系了县政府官员,包括专员会主席,听取他们对事件的描述。

I contacted county officials, including the chair of the commissioners, to hear their version of events.

Speaker 2

作为回应,我收到了县检察官的邮件,说很遗憾,由于法律顾虑,他们无法讨论任何涉及儿童与青少年办公室的事务。

In response, I received an email from the county's attorney, saying that unfortunately, they couldn't discuss any matters involving the Office of Children and Youth due to legal concerns.

Speaker 2

儿童与青少年服务局和人类服务部的县主管们也同样如此。

Ditto the county directors of CYS and the Department of Human Services.

Speaker 2

马克清楚发布这份报告可能会毁掉他的职业生涯。

Mark knew that publishing a report had the potential to tank his career.

Speaker 2

正值选举年,在选民眼中,这可能会显得他在为虐待儿童者开脱。

It was an election year, and to voters, it might look like he was being an apologist for child abusers.

Speaker 2

他的团队成员曾建议他等到选举结束后再发布报告。

Members of his own staff suggested he wait until after the election to release it.

Speaker 2

但马克思考了如果推迟发布而自己又未能连任的感受。

But Mark thought about how he'd feel if he held off and then wasn't reelected.

Speaker 2

他将错失发声的机会。

He would have missed his chance to speak up.

Speaker 2

所以他决定继续推进。

So he pushed ahead.

Speaker 2

他向县领导层提前打了招呼。

He gave the county leadership a heads up.

Speaker 2

报告即将发布,同时还将举行新闻发布会。

The report was coming, along with a press conference.

Speaker 2

他还预先告知了他们自己希望实施的改革建议:主要是要求社工在根据医疗诊断决定是否带走孩子时,必须征询医生的第二意见。

He also gave them advanced notice of his recommendations for changes he hoped they'd make at chiefly, require caseworkers to get a second opinion from a doctor when considering whether to remove a child based on a medical finding.

Speaker 2

他还希望他们聘请外部机构调查儿童与青少年服务局的工作流程。

And he wanted them to hire an outside firm to investigate CYS procedures.

Speaker 2

在发布报告前,马克有几个问题要咨询县检察官——即县政府的律师们。

Before he published his report, Mark had a few questions for the solicitors, the county's lawyers.

Speaker 2

某种程度上这也是他的律师,因为他本人也是县政府官员。

His lawyers in a way, since he was a county official too.

Speaker 2

他手上有大量包含敏感信息的记录,涉及儿童的医疗问题和家庭法庭诉讼。

He had all these records containing sensitive information about kids' medical issues and family court proceedings.

Speaker 2

于是他询问他们,在法律允许范围内,他能在公开报告中包含哪些内容。

So he asked them, what could he legally include in a public facing report?

Speaker 2

当回复传来时,内容非常简短。

When the response came back, it was short.

Speaker 2

基本上就两个字:见附件。

Basically two words, see attached.

Speaker 5

所以当有人说这是个PDF附件时,你就知道内容肯定很长。

So when you say it's a PDF attachment, know it's gonna be long.

Speaker 2

马克对此有种不祥的预感。

Mark didn't have a great feeling about this.

Speaker 2

他泡了杯茶,打印出PDF文件,坐下来开始阅读。

He made a cup of tea, printed the PDF, and settled down to read it.

Speaker 2

这是在休息之后的事。

That's after a break.

Speaker 6

嘿。

Hey.

Speaker 6

我是《纽约时报》旗下产品推荐服务Wirecutter的劳伦·德拉贡,我负责测试耳机。

It's Lauren Dragon from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times, and I test headphones.

Speaker 6

我们基本上会自制人工汗液,然后反复喷洒在这些耳机上,观察它们随时间的变化。

We basically make our own fake sweat and spray it over and over on these headphones to see what happens to them over time.

Speaker 5

我们要

We're gonna

Speaker 3

戴上降噪耳机,看看它们实际能多好地隔绝噪音。

put on some noise canceling headphones and see how well they actually block out the sounds.

Speaker 6

我的数据库里有3,136条记录。

I have 3,136 entries in my database.

Speaker 6

孩子们,锻炼一下 蓝牙是什么版本?

Kids, workout What version of Bluetooth?

Speaker 6

在Wirecutter,我们替您完成调研工作。

At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to.

Speaker 6

获取真实世界的独立产品评测与推荐,请访问nytimes.com/wirecutter。

For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com/wirecutter.

Speaker 2

律师发来的PDF文件很长。

The PDF from the solicitors was long.

Speaker 2

文件印着县政府的信头,至少从潜台词来看意思很明确。

It was on county letterhead, and the subtext, to mark at least, was clear.

Speaker 2

他的报告一开始就注定失败。

His report was dead on arrival.

Speaker 2

文件开篇就写道:

One of the first lines of it read:

Speaker 5

最核心的总体担忧在于:您基于所述理由追查这些信息的行为,是否超越了您作为数据控制官的职权范围。

The most significant overarching concern is whether your pursuit of this information for the reasons you have stated goes beyond the scope of your authority as the controller.

Speaker 2

律师们实际上是在书面声明——如果马克执意发布这份报告,他的行为可能超出其作为数据控制官的职权,并可能导致县政府被Behemoth医疗集团起诉(该集团恰好是本地区最大雇主),或被报告中点名的医生起诉。

The Solicitors were sayingdocumenting, reallythat if Mark would have published this report, he might be acting beyond his authority as controller, and he might get the county sued by a Behemoth Health Network perhaps, which happens to be the region's largest employer, or by a doctor who was named in the report.

Speaker 2

或者马克个人可能会被起诉,届时他将独自承担后果。

Or Mark himself might get sued personally, And then he'd be on his own.

Speaker 5

这简直就是在说:你会害我们被起诉的。

This was just like, hey, you're gonna get us sued.

Speaker 5

而且你自己也会被起诉。

And you're gonna get sued.

展开剩余字幕(还有 276 条)
Speaker 5

可能还会连累其他人吃官司。

And maybe other people are gonna be sued.

Speaker 5

整件事就是这样。

That's what this was.

Speaker 5

我们告诉你这些就是为了把你吓得屁滚尿流。

And and we're telling you in order to scare the shit out of you.

Speaker 5

他们就是这么干的。

That's what they're doing.

Speaker 2

你当时害怕吗?

Were you scared?

Speaker 5

那当然。

Hell yeah.

Speaker 2

听起来充满敌意。

It sounds antagonistic.

Speaker 2

要是我请的律师这样说话,我肯定吓坏了

I would be terrified if I had an attorney and that's

Speaker 5

但他们派了你来。

But they sent you.

Speaker 5

所以我立马就知道他不再是我的律师了。

That's how I knew immediately he's no longer my attorney.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

就像你一读到这个就明白,他们不会帮我,还会把我推下火坑。

Like, as soon as you read this, you're like, they are not going to help me and they're going to throw me under the bus.

Speaker 5

这种话根本不该白纸黑字写下来,除非你想撇清责任。

Like, you just don't put this kind of stuff in writing unless you're covering your ass.

Speaker 2

我承认,某种程度上我能理解县政府的论点。

I confess, I can halfway see the county's argument here.

Speaker 2

毕竟马克那份《误诊的代价》报告里,关于儿童虐待误诊案件给县政府造成的财政负担,数据其实相当含糊。

After all, Mark's report titled The Cost of Misdiagnosis was actually pretty mushy regarding the county's financial burden due to misdiagnosed child abuse cases.

Speaker 2

他估算每个寄养儿童每年要花费2.5万到3万美元,而如果被家属起诉,县政府最高可能面临数百万美元的赔偿。

He'd calculated it as anywhere from $25,000 to $30,000 a year for each kid in foster care to untold millions of dollars on the high end if the county were to get sued by the families.

Speaker 2

并不完全具有决定性。

Not exactly conclusive.

Speaker 2

而且这是事实。

And it was true.

Speaker 2

他利用财务问题作为切入点来讨论另一个更重大的问题,但他认为这并无不妥。

He was using the finances as a way to talk about a different, bigger problem, but he saw nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2

用他自己的话说,他是个像斗牛犬一样执着的财务总监。

He was, in his own words, a bulldog of a controller.

Speaker 2

他坚信这完全在自己的职权范围内。

He firmly believed he was within his purview.

Speaker 2

一周后,发生了两件事。

A week later, two things happened.

Speaker 2

首先,马克再次收到县律师的通知。

First, Mark heard from the county's lawyer again.

Speaker 2

对方想确保马克明白他的员工也可能被追责。

He wanted to make sure Mark understood that his staff could also be held liable.

Speaker 2

马克的回应是:知道了。

Mark was like, noted.

Speaker 2

接着马克又接到员工的单独来电,说县财政厅的人刚来过。

And then Mark got a separate call from a member of his staff saying someone from the county's finance department had just stopped by.

Speaker 2

马克的预算被削减了。

Mark's budget was being cut.

Speaker 2

他必须在四个月内裁掉两名员工,相当于25%的团队。

He would have to lose two employees, 25% of his staff, effective in four months' time.

Speaker 2

马克感到震惊。

Mark was appalled.

Speaker 2

财务总监的团队多年来从未被裁员。

The controller's staff hadn't been cut in years.

Speaker 2

这不可能是巧合,他心想。

This can't be a coincidence, he thought.

Speaker 2

第二天,马克把员工召集到会议室。

The next day, Mark called his staff into a conference room.

Speaker 2

他宣布消息时试图安慰他们。

He tried to comfort them as he broke the news.

Speaker 5

我们第二天就坐下来了。

We're sitting down the next day.

Speaker 5

我的员工们正在得知他们的工作要被裁掉。

My employees, they're learning that their jobs are gonna be cut.

Speaker 5

他们得知自己可能会被起诉。

They're learning that they might get sued.

Speaker 5

我试图对他们说,别担心。

And I'm trying to say to them, don't worry.

Speaker 5

一切都会好起来的。

Everything's gonna be all right.

Speaker 5

他们非常担忧。

And they're pretty worried.

Speaker 5

我理解,因为我也不是不担心。

And I get it because I'm not not worried either.

Speaker 5

我非常担心。

I'm pretty worried.

Speaker 2

到这个时候,你有没有考虑过也许不该这么做?

At this point, were you considering maybe I shouldn't do this?

Speaker 2

这值得吗?

Is it worth it?

Speaker 5

哦,当然。

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5

我不知道该怎么办。

I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 2

马克说会议又长又激烈。

Mark says the meeting was long and heated.

Speaker 2

整个团队只有八个人,他们极力劝阻他不要发布这份报告。

The staff was only eight people total, and they urged him not to publish the report.

Speaker 2

其中一人争辩说,听着,如果要在我们的工作和报告之间做选择,你总得选我们吧?

One of them argued, look, if it's our jobs or the report, you gotta choose us, right?

Speaker 2

但马克觉得,我又不是被选来保护你们工作的。

But Mark felt like, I wasn't elected to protect your jobs.

Speaker 2

再说,你们也不该因为这事被开除。

Then again, you don't deserve to be booted over this.

Speaker 2

经过几个情绪化的小时后,他终于妥协了,但提了一个条件。

Finally, after a couple emotional hours, he conceded on one condition.

Speaker 2

他和家属们谈过,如果他们没意见,他就撤回报告。

He talked to the families, and if they were okay with it, he'd pull the report.

Speaker 2

于是他就这么做了。

And so that's what he did.

Speaker 5

然后你知道,我马上给县检察官办公室打电话说,所有安排都取消。

And so, you know, I then call the solicitor's office of the county and I say, everything's off.

Speaker 5

我们不举行记者会了。

We're not gonna have the press conference.

Speaker 5

也不安排家属过来了。

We're not gonna bring the families in.

Speaker 5

全部取消。

Everything.

Speaker 5

你们赢了。

You guys won.

Speaker 5

我真的亲眼看到我们说,你们可以开香槟庆祝了。

I I literally see us say, you guys can pop the champagne.

Speaker 5

你们赢了。

You won.

Speaker 5

结果第二天我来上班时,眼睛通红,不是因为疲惫,而是气得发红。

So I come in the next day and I am like, you know, eyes are red, not from being tired, but from being pissed.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

就是很生气。

Like, am just mad.

Speaker 5

于是我去找了财务部那个负责人。

And so I go up to this particular person in the finance department.

Speaker 5

马克,没关系。

Mark, it's okay.

Speaker 5

他们把那两个职位恢复回来了。

They put the two positions back.

Speaker 2

哇。

Wow.

Speaker 5

是啊。

Yeah.

Speaker 5

我早就料到了。

I expected it.

Speaker 2

你早就料到了。

You expected it.

Speaker 2

所以这证实了你认为这是直接回应?

So did it confirm in your mind that this was a direct response?

Speaker 5

没错。

Yep.

Speaker 5

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

你当时感觉如何?

How did you feel?

Speaker 5

我...我感觉到了两种情绪。

I I felt two things.

Speaker 5

解脱。

Relief.

Speaker 5

我感到解脱了。

I felt relief.

Speaker 5

这大概是我最强烈的感受,因为我不想连累那两名员工。

That was probably the biggest feeling I felt because I did not wanna screw these two employees.

Speaker 5

而且我之后还得发火。

And like, I'm gonna have to be mad later.

Speaker 5

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 5

我知道自己肯定会暴怒,就是感觉这事太离谱了。

Like I knew that I was gonna be pissed, you know, like I knew like, like this just felt so wrong.

Speaker 5

离谱到让我想立刻去冲个澡那种程度。

It felt like I want to take a shower kind of wrong.

Speaker 5

但...但我只是感到如释重负。

But I I was just relieved.

Speaker 5

你明白吗?

You know?

Speaker 5

当天下午我就通知所有员工,预算恢复了。

And I that afternoon, I told all the employees, like, the the budget's back.

Speaker 2

我向县政府核实过,分管财政的县长表示那年多个部门都在考虑裁员。

I did check with the county on all this, and the county executive, who oversees its finance department, said staff cuts were being considered in many departments that year.

Speaker 2

马克的部门确实在裁员名单中,但这些削减方案从未正式提出,也并非报复性措施。

And Mark's department was among them, yes, but those cuts were never formally proposed, and they weren't retaliatory.

Speaker 2

既然没有人员裁减的压力,马克面临一个新的抉择。

With no staffing cuts on the line, Mark had a new choice to make.

Speaker 2

他可以选择将报告锁进抽屉,保持低调。

He could bury his report in a drawer and keep his head down.

Speaker 2

或者无视县政府的建议,坚持发布报告。

Or he could ignore the county's advice and go ahead and release it.

Speaker 2

他决定聘请一位律师朋友,请其仔细审阅文件并评估风险。

He decided to hire a lawyer friend, asked him to pore over the document, and advise him on the risk.

Speaker 2

律师建议马克删去医生姓名,并剔除所有提及利哈伊谷医疗网络的内容。

The lawyer told Mark to cut the names of the doctors, cut any mention of Lehigh Valley Health Network.

Speaker 2

50页的草案因此缩减了11页。

The 50 page draft shrank by 11 pages.

Speaker 2

马克获得团队同意发布修订版,但他坚持要等到预算案正式印刷后才公开。

Mark got his staff's approval to release the new version, but he didn't want to publish it until the budget actually went to print.

Speaker 2

此时的马克可能有些偏执。

He was paranoid by this point, maybe.

Speaker 2

或者说很精明。

Or smart.

Speaker 2

县预算案就像一本实体书。

The county budget is like a physical book.

Speaker 2

马克清楚,一旦印刷完成,委员们就不敢削减他的预算。

Once it was printed, Mark knew the commissioners wouldn't cut his budget.

Speaker 2

因为若此时削减,公众会认为这是惩罚性措施——毕竟原始数字已白纸黑字印在预算书里。

Because if they did, the public might interpret the move as punitive, since the original number was right there in the budget book in black and white.

Speaker 5

而我每天都给财务部门打电话。

And every day I called the finance department.

Speaker 5

已经送去印刷了吗?

Has it gone to print yet?

Speaker 5

已经送去印刷了吗?

Has it gone to print yet?

Speaker 5

已经送去印刷了吗?

Has it gone to print yet?

Speaker 5

周三早上,它被送去印刷了。

And Wednesday morning, it went to print.

Speaker 5

我亲眼看见那个女人拿着U盘离开去打印了。

I saw I literally saw the woman leave with the flash drive to go get it to print to the printer.

Speaker 5

然后我给律师打了电话。

And I called the solicitor.

Speaker 5

我说,就想让你知道,报告今天会发布。

I'm like, just want you to know, the report's going out today.

Speaker 5

而且会召开记者招待会。

And there's going to be a press conference.

Speaker 5

我们今晚会参加委员会议。

And we're coming to the commissioner's meeting tonight.

Speaker 5

他却说,别这么做。

And he's like, don't do it.

Speaker 5

就是,别发布它。

Like, don't put it out.

Speaker 5

我说,不行。

And I'm like, no.

Speaker 5

我们就是要发布。

We're putting it out.

Speaker 2

马克在周三早上将报告发布到县网站上,发了新闻稿,并立即开始与家属们协调工作。

Mark published his report to the county website on a Wednesday morning, issued a press release, and immediately got to work coordinating with the families.

Speaker 2

委员会会议就在同一天晚上举行,所有这些家庭都必须迅速做好准备。

The commissioner's meeting was that same night, and all these families had to get ready fast.

Speaker 2

黄色家庭,他们有个患脆骨病的婴儿;灰色家庭,曾被指控有孟乔森综合征;蓝色家庭,橙色家庭。

The yellow family, who had the baby with brittle bone disease, the gray family, who had been accused of Munchausen, the blue family, the orange family.

Speaker 2

这些都是马克私下交谈过的人。

All these people Mark had spoken to privately.

Speaker 2

他一直鼓励他们讲述自己的故事,但他知道这是个很高的要求。

He'd been encouraging them all along to tell their stories, but he knew it was a big ask.

Speaker 5

所以我无法想象他们当时的处境,但可以想象他们一定在反复讨论:我们真的要做这件事吗?

And so they I can't imagine what it was like being on their end, but I can imagine there's a lot of conversation going on about like, do we really wanna do this?

Speaker 5

我们的邻居现在还不知道。

Our neighbors don't know right now.

Speaker 5

我们的邻居不知道我们被视为儿童虐待者。

Our neighbors don't know that we're considered child reviewers.

Speaker 5

只有最亲近的亲友知道,而现在我们要向全世界宣布这件事。

Only our closest friends and family know and we are now gonna announce this to the world.

Speaker 5

然后那天晚上,你看到队伍从...我是说,不亲眼所见就难以想象这个场景。

And then that night, you saw like there was a line that went from I mean, like, you don't get the picture of this without seeing it.

Speaker 5

但确实有队伍从门口一直排到了街上。

But there was a line that went from the door out to the street.

Speaker 5

那可不是少数人。

And that is not a short amount of people.

Speaker 5

要组织这么多人参与很不容易。

That's a lot of people to make that happen.

Speaker 2

现场来了将近100人。

Close to 100 people had shown up.

Speaker 5

简直难以置信。

It was unbelievable.

Speaker 5

我简直无法形容那种感受,因为你甚至不知道该作何感想。

It just I can't even describe what the feeling was because it's like, you don't even know how to feel.

Speaker 5

你是感到快乐还是真的很难过?

Do you feel happy or do you feel really sad?

Speaker 7

我宣布莱海县专员委员会会议现在开始。

I'm going to call this meeting of the Lehigh County Board of Commissioners to order.

Speaker 7

提醒一下,本次会议

A reminder, the meeting

Speaker 2

马克靠墙站在门边,既能看见排队站在讲台前的家属们,也能看见房间前方的委员们。

Mark stood against the wall, close to the door, in a view of both the families lined up at the lectern and the commissioners at the front of the room.

Speaker 2

这些委员们至今仍未承诺采取行动,没有回应他的报告,也不愿与家属会面。马克希望,现在他们不得不面对了。

The commissioners, who up to now hadn't pledged to take action, hadn't responded to his report, who hadn't wanted to meet with the families, now, Mark hoped, they'd have to engage.

Speaker 2

他们会看到这些人,听到这些人的声音,或许会有所触动。

They'd see these people, hear these people, and maybe they'd be moved.

Speaker 2

显然,他们不会当场解决问题,但或许会迫于压力说些有实质意义的话。

Obviously, they weren't going to fix the problem on the spot, but maybe they'd feel compelled to say something meaningful.

Speaker 2

然后也许在将来,他们会采取些实质性行动。

And then maybe down the line, they'd do something meaningful.

Speaker 7

请大家随我一起宣誓效忠好吗?

Would everybody please join me in the pledge of allegiance?

Speaker 8

我宣誓效忠美利坚合众国国旗。

I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States Of America.

Speaker 2

约有十几人径直走向讲台,在麦克风后排成一列。

About a dozen people headed straight to the lectern to form a line behind the microphone.

Speaker 2

他们手里拿着记有笔记的纸张,准备发表声明。

They were holding pieces of paper with notes, prepared statements.

Speaker 2

他们神情严肃,略显紧张。

They looked serious, a little nervous.

Speaker 7

在我开放市民发言环节前,先说明几点关于市民发言的会议规则

Before I open the floor to citizens' input, a couple of housekeeping rules related to citizens' input

Speaker 2

他说每个人有五分钟时间讨论非议程事项

He says everyone can have five minutes to talk about non agenda items.

Speaker 2

他们开始发言

They begin.

Speaker 8

你好

Hi.

Speaker 8

我代表我妻子和我本人发言

I'm speaking on behalf of my wife and myself.

Speaker 2

一位男士表示他和妻子因为女儿出现停止呼吸的可怕情况而送医

One man says he and his wife brought their baby daughter to the hospital because of a scary incident when she'd stopped breathing.

Speaker 8

医院没有先调查导致我们送医的女儿症状,而是看到一处小淤青就立即妄下结论

Instead of looking into the issues our daughter was having that led us to the hospital in the first place, they saw a small bruise and immediately wanted to paint a picture.

Speaker 8

她甚至没有和我交谈就指控我虐待女儿

She accused me of abusing our daughter without even talking to me.

Speaker 8

我们的女儿被强行从充满爱的家庭带走

Our daughter was ripped from a loving family.

Speaker 8

我们被利哈伊谷医院保安和索尔兹伯里镇警察强行带离

We were escorted out by both the Lehigh Valley security guards and Salisbury Township police officers.

Speaker 2

另一位父亲走向麦克风

Another father heads to the mic.

Speaker 9

我们的儿子被送进医院

Our son was taken to the hospital.

Speaker 9

我们11岁的自闭症儿子超过一周没能见到家人,在最喜欢的节日里只能待在病房

Our 11 year old autistic son did not see a family member for over a week and spent his favorite holiday in a hospital room.

Speaker 9

我们在未经调查的情况下失去了对儿子四个月的监护权

We lost custody of our son for four months with no investigation.

Speaker 9

一位素未谋面的女士仅凭主观判断就认定我儿子符合她的标准。

A woman who had never met us or our son simply decided that he fit her criteria.

Speaker 2

他们接连讲述着自己的困惑,至今仍无法真正理解发生了什么,有些人对被诊断为代理型孟乔森综合征感到震惊。

One after the other, they talk about their confusion, about how they still can't really understand what happened, about the astonishment for some of them of receiving a Munchausen by proxy diagnosis.

Speaker 10

我们立即被医院禁止探视,并在一个周末内遭到素未谋面的医生指控患有心理障碍。

We were immediately banned from the hospital and accused over a weekend of suffering from a psychological disorder by doctors who never met us.

Speaker 10

专业医师、多位心理学家、教师和学校工作人员等超过15名证人试图联系儿童福利部门反驳指控,但全都无济于事。

Expert physicians, multiple psychologists, teachers, and school staff, over 15 witnesses tried to get ahold of CYS to dispute allegations, but none of it mattered.

Speaker 10

根本没有调查。

There is no investigation.

Speaker 10

直到今天,我们再也没能联系上儿子。

To this day, we have never had contact with our son again.

Speaker 2

这些发言者代表了13个被指控虐待儿童的家庭。

The speakers represent 13 families accused of abuse.

Speaker 2

他们的故事既极具特殊性,又属于某种固定模式——父母带着孩子辗转医院求医,最终却独自离开。

Their stories are both super specific and part of a pattern of parents walking hospital to get help for a child only to leave without them.

Speaker 2

这令人窒息。

It's overwhelming.

Speaker 11

在我看来,如果带孩子去利哈伊谷医院,就是在将孩子和家庭置于危险之中。

In my opinion, if you are taking your child to Lehigh Valley Hospital, you are putting your child and family in danger.

Speaker 3

我因孩子主诉疼痛且穿袜子时难以坐起而带其前往急诊室,

I brought my child to the ER for complaints of pain and difficulty sitting up in socks,

Speaker 12

结果我在楼梯滑倒,女儿摔在了坚硬的木楼梯上。

and I slipped on the stairs, and I dropped my daughter on the hard wooden stairs.

Speaker 12

我们的孩子才三个月大

Our child is three months old

Speaker 7

十三岁。

13 years old.

Speaker 7

17岁和17岁

Year old and 17 year

Speaker 13

的女儿,还有快四个月大的儿子和两个月大的

old daughters, almost four month old son Two months old.

Speaker 13

我七周大

My seven week

Speaker 10

的孩子

old.

Speaker 10

我们带着最大的孩子去利哈伊谷医院急诊室求助

We took our oldest child to the emergency room at Lehigh Valley Hospital for help.

Speaker 11

整整七天,未经我们同意或法律程序,我和妻子被禁止进入医院或与我们的

And for seven days, without our permission or legal proceeding, my wife and I were banned from entering the hospital or communicating with our

Speaker 12

我本以为他们会问我问题

expected them to ask me questions.

Speaker 12

我预料到会受到些审查,但没想到进展会这么快

I expected to be under the microscope a little bit, but I didn't expect it to progress that quickly.

Speaker 13

这是虐待

This is abuse.

Speaker 13

我们受到了心理创伤

We are traumatized.

Speaker 13

我们现在害怕医生

We are afraid of doctors now.

Speaker 13

我现在害怕医生

I'm afraid of doctors now.

Speaker 14

我们仍有很多不眠之夜

We still have a lot of sleepless nights.

Speaker 14

你试图把它抛到脑后

You try to push it to the back of

Speaker 15

你的脑海中,但所发生之事的可怕程度始终

your mind, but the awfulness of what happened is always

Speaker 16

对我个人而言,这是关于羞耻感的问题。

For me, personally, it's about the shame.

Speaker 16

被错误指控虐待儿童是难以想象的。

It's unimaginable to be wrongfully accused of child abuse.

Speaker 16

对我们所有人来说,很多伤害已经造成了。

For all of us, a lot of the damage is already done.

Speaker 5

长远来看,孩子们最终回到了家,但某种程度上也受到了伤害。

In the long run, the children wound up home, but then also wound up kind of broken.

Speaker 2

证词持续了两个小时。

The testimony goes on for two hours.

Speaker 2

几位专员似乎在认真倾听。

Several of the commissioners seem to be listening closely.

Speaker 2

其他人看起来可能有点不自在,低头看着桌面或笔记本电脑。

Others seem maybe a little uncomfortable, looking down at the desk or at their laptops.

Speaker 2

然后结束了,房间安静下来。

And then it's over, and the room gets quiet.

Speaker 2

马克已经知道家属们要说的很多内容。

Mark already knew a lot of what the families were going to say.

Speaker 2

所以他现在最想听的是专员们将如何回应。

So what he most wants to hear now is how the commissioners are going to respond.

Speaker 7

好的。

All right.

Speaker 7

我有几句简短声明。

So I have a couple of brief statements.

Speaker 2

这是委员会主席杰夫·布雷斯。

This is Jeff Brace, chairman of the board of commissioners.

Speaker 7

我想做的一般性声明是,莱希县在法律和道德上有义务调查所有向县工作人员和机构提出的儿童虐待指控。

The general statement that I'd like to make is that the County of Lehi has a legal and moral obligation to investigate every allegation of child abuse brought forward to County personnel and agencies.

Speaker 7

我认为在座各位没有人会反对这一点。

I don't think anybody in the room disagrees with that.

Speaker 7

而且我认为我们将继续确保这一点的落实。

And I think we will continue to make sure that happens.

Speaker 7

尽管如此,A

Nonetheless A

Speaker 2

请其他几位委员也作出回应。

couple other commissioners respond as well.

Speaker 2

他们说自己也都有孩子。

They have kids themselves, they say.

Speaker 2

他们无法想象这些父母所经历的创伤。

They can't imagine the trauma these parents have endured.

Speaker 2

其中一位表示听到这些事让她心碎不已。

One says her heart is absolutely broken hearing about it.

Speaker 2

但他们没有进一步表态。

But they don't go further than that.

Speaker 2

他们对马克建议的改革措施只字未提,包括他最主要的建议——当基于医疗诊断要将儿童带离家庭时,必须获得第二位医生的诊断意见。

They don't say a word about any of the changes Mark recommended, including his main one requiring a second opinion from a doctor if a child is going to be removed from their home based on a medical finding.

Speaker 2

会议主席杰夫·布雷斯一度表示,马克本应将其报告提交给制定多项儿童福利政策的州人力资源服务部。

At one point, Jeff Brace, the chairman, says that Mark should have sent his report to the state's Department of Human Services, which sets a lot of child welfare policy.

Speaker 2

马克突然插话。

Mark pipes up.

Speaker 5

已经发送了。

It's been sent.

Speaker 5

谢谢

Thank you,

Speaker 2

他确实发送了。

He did send it.

Speaker 5

请再说一遍?

Pardon?

Speaker 5

已经发送了。

It's been sent.

Speaker 5

谢谢你,杰夫。

Thank you, Jeff.

Speaker 5

很好。

Great.

Speaker 2

州政府已经收到了。

The state already has it.

Speaker 7

我会确保她也拿到一份。

I'll make sure that it's in her hands also.

Speaker 2

他还特意强调自己从不指挥别人如何工作,包括马克。

He also makes a point of saying he never tells anyone how to do their job, including Mark.

Speaker 2

整件事简短、紧张又怪异。

The whole thing is brief, tense, weird.

Speaker 2

杰夫·布雷斯总结道。

Jeff Brace concludes.

Speaker 7

尽管如此,我同意你的观点。

Nonetheless, I share your agreement.

Speaker 7

我也有同感。

Share your sentiments.

Speaker 7

我的发言到此结束。

That wraps up my comments.

Speaker 7

还有其他人要发言吗?

Anybody else?

Speaker 5

他有为发生的事情道歉吗?

Did he say I'm sorry for what happened?

Speaker 5

他照着预先准备好的稿子念道:'听着,我只是想告诉你们,如果你们被举报为虐童者,我们就必须调查你们。'

He read a pre canned speech that said, Hey, I just want to let you know, if you guys get reported as child abusers, we have to investigate you.

Speaker 5

你们明白这个意思吧?

You guys get that, right?

Speaker 5

是的,我们明白。

Yeah, we get it.

Speaker 5

在场的观众中没有人说'我们对被调查感到不满'。

There wasn't anybody in the audience that was saying, hey, we're upset that we were investigated.

Speaker 5

他们说的是'我们对后续的处理流程感到不满'。

They were saying, we're upset with what the process is going forward.

Speaker 5

我的意思是,这根本就是句废话。

I mean, it was a nothing comment.

Speaker 5

这话明显经过审核,听起来像是律师把关过的。

It had been vetted, obviously, by It sounded to me like it had been vetted by a lawyer.

Speaker 5

实际上这句话就是在对所有家庭说'去你妈的'。

It was and it basically said, fuck you to all the families.

Speaker 5

这就是我的感受。

That's how I felt.

Speaker 5

而且我平时很少说脏话。

And I don't curse very often.

Speaker 2

会议结束后,我们茫然地走进走廊,都有些震惊。

After the meeting, we filed into the hallway, a little stunned.

Speaker 2

儿童福利领域的普遍认知是,许多虐童行为都没有被举报。

The conventional wisdom in child welfare is that lots of child abuse goes unreported.

Speaker 2

马克和这些家庭并不是在挑战这个认知。

Mark and these families were not challenging that wisdom.

Speaker 2

相反,他们提出了一个不同的问题。

Instead, they were bringing up a different problem.

Speaker 2

在宾夕法尼亚州的利哈伊谷,他们描述了一场关于过度报告、过度干预和错误指控的危机。

Here in Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley, they were describing a crisis of overreporting, of overintervention, of false accusation.

Speaker 2

就我而言,我从未听说过有这么多家庭来自同一个地方,都声称一家医疗网络误诊了他们的孩子,造成了灾难性后果。

For my part, I had never heard of so many families from one small place, all claiming that one health care network had misdiagnosed their kids with disastrous results.

Speaker 2

马克的报告和他的建议,是关于调查和改革医院及儿童与青少年服务系统中看似系统性的问题。

Mark's report and his recommendations, they were about investigating and reforming what looked like systemic problems within the hospital and CYS.

Speaker 2

当然,这毋庸置疑。

Which, sure, of course.

Speaker 2

另一方面,我刚听到这么多人的证词,都提到了这位医生,一个他们似乎无法沟通的人。

On the other hand, I'd just heard testimonies by so many people, all mentioning this one doctor, someone they couldn't seem to get through to.

Speaker 13

就好像我们不存在一样。

It was as if we were invisible.

Speaker 13

因为这位医生无可争议的诊断,我们不得不离开我的孙子,无法陪伴在他身边。

We had to leave my grandson and could not be around him because of this doctor's uncontested diagnosis.

Speaker 2

在这位祖母的故事中,在所有故事里,听起来这位医生已经下定决心,不会改变。

In this grandmother's story, in all these stories, it sounded as if this doctor had made up her mind and wouldn't budge.

Speaker 13

我问你,什么样的医生会这样做?

I ask you, what kind of doctor does this?

Speaker 2

这也是我想知道的。

That's what I wanted to know, too.

Speaker 2

下次再说。

Next time.

Speaker 2

《预防者》由我,黛安·尼里主持、撰写并报道。

The Preventionist is hosted, written, and reported by me, Diane Neary.

Speaker 2

本·费伦和珍妮尔·皮弗进行了补充报道。

Additional reporting by Ben Phelan and Janelle Pifer.

Speaker 2

本节目由Janelle Pifer制作,Jen Guerra编辑。

It's produced by Janelle Pifer and edited by Jen Guerra.

Speaker 2

额外编辑由Sarah Koenig和Anita Batajo完成。

Additional editing by Sarah Koenig and Anita Batajo.

Speaker 2

事实核查由Elizabeth Barber和Ben Phelan负责。

Fact checking by Elizabeth Barber and Ben Phelan.

Speaker 2

补充事实核查由Caitlin Love完成。

Additional fact checking by Caitlin Love.

Speaker 2

欲获取节目更多报道,请订阅我们的新闻通讯:nytimes.com/serialnewsletter。

For more reporting from the show, sign up for our newsletter at nytimes.com/serialnewsletter.

Speaker 2

音乐监制与混音由Phoebe Wang负责。

Music supervision and mixing by Phoebe Wang.

Speaker 2

补充混音由Katherine Anderson完成。

Additional mixing by Katherine Anderson.

Speaker 2

音效设计由Jonathan Menhevar和Phoebe Wang操刀。

Sound design by Jonathan Menhevar and Phoebe Wang.

Speaker 2

原创音乐由Martin D.创作。

Original music by Martin D.

Speaker 2

Fowler、Dan Powell和Marian Lozano共同完成。

Fowler, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano.

Speaker 2

Martin D.

Martin D.

Speaker 2

Fowler创作了我们的主题曲。

Fowler composed our theme song.

Speaker 2

我们的标准编辑是Susan Westling。

Our standards editor is Susan Westling.

Speaker 2

法律审核由Dana Green负责。

Legal review from Dana Green.

Speaker 2

我们节目的美术设计来自A。

The art for our show comes from A.

Speaker 2

梅·亨特和巴勃罗·德尔·汗。

Mae Hunt and Pablo Del Khan.

Speaker 2

Serial Productions的监制是恩德·楚布。

The supervising producer for Serial Productions is Nde Chubu.

Speaker 2

朱莉·斯奈德是Serial的执行编辑。

Julie Snyder is Serial's executive editor.

Speaker 2

我们的副制片人是麦克·米勒。

Our associate producer is Mac Miller.

Speaker 2

《纽约时报》的尼娜·劳森和科里·比奇参与了额外制作。

Additional producing comes from Nina Lawson and Cory Beach at The New York Times.

Speaker 2

萨姆·杜尔尼克是《纽约时报》的副执行主编。

And Sam Dulnik is The New York Times deputy managing editor.

Speaker 2

《预防者》是Serial制作的节目

The preventionist is a production of Serial

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