注射、骨锤击与极致男性美的追求

我正在开启跨平台对战。

I'm opening up cross play.

我一直在和丹对战，他是《纽约时报》的同事。

I've been playing against Dan, my colleague at The New York Times.

猫下了另一手。

Cat's played another move.

呃。

Ugh.

她用了‘stoop’得了36分。

She played stoop for 36 points.

我手里有个Z，值10分。

I've got a z, which is 10 points.

我猜‘Tenga’不是一个单词。

I'm guessing Tenga is not a word.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

Tenga 是一个单词。

Tenga is a word.

哦。

Oh.

丹完成了他的最后一轮。

Dan played his last turn.

我们来看看谁赢了。

Let's see who won.

比分非常接近，但我赢了。

It's so close, but I did win.

Crossplay，由《纽约时报》游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。

Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times games.

今天免费下载吧。

Download it for free today.

当你看到一场本可以赢的游戏时，真是令人沮丧。

It's devastating when you see a game that you could have won.

来自《纽约时报》，我是娜塔莉·基特罗夫。

From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroeff.

这是《周日日报》。

This is the Sunday Daily.

互联网上有一个角落，年轻男子在那里花数小时相互比较外貌。

There's a corner of the Internet where young men spend hours raiding each other's bodies.

他们评估自己中面部的长度以及瞳孔之间的距离。

They evaluate the length of their mid faces and the distance between their pupils.

他们服用睾酮，并将溶解脂肪的化合物注射到下巴部位。

They take testosterone and inject fat dissolving compounds into their jaws.

他们用锤子敲打自己的颧骨。

They hit themselves in the cheekbones with hammers.

他们把这种行为称为‘外貌最大化’，这个群体最初是一种亚文化，如今正迅速进入主流视野。

They call what they do looksmaxxing, and their community started as a subculture, is now bursting into the mainstream.

他们独特的说话方式上周出现在奥斯卡颁奖礼上，也被五角大楼使用过。

Their particular way of speaking popped up at last week's Oscars and has been used by the Pentagon.

他们甚至登上了《周六夜现场》。

They even made it to Saturday Night Live.

别介意，但你坐在那儿，像一个低等的Beta公狗一样做着鬼脸。

No offense, but you're sitting there and gesture gooning like a subhuman beta cock.

而我呢，正在外面像顶级的Gigachat一样进行面容优化。

Meanwhile, I'm out here OraMaxxing like an s tier gigachat.

这一运动的兴起与它最大的明星克拉维克拉尔的崛起密切相关，这位20岁的网红最根深蒂固的信念是：外表才是真正重要的全部。

The rise of this movement has a lot to do with the ascendance of its biggest star, Clavicular, a 20 year old influencer whose most deeply held belief is that looks are genuinely all that matters.

今天，我和我的同事伯恩斯坦讨论了为什么面容优化的意识形态能吸引如此多的年轻男性，以及这种现象反映了我们文化的哪些方面。

Today, I talk with my colleague, Bernstein, about why the ethos of looksmaxxing appeals to so many young men and what its resonance says about our culture.

今天是3月22日，星期日。

It's Sunday, March 22.

乔，欢迎来到《周日日报》。

Joe, welcome to the Sunday Daily.

很高兴能来这里。

Great to be here.

所以我们即将展开一场关于‘外貌最大化’的对话，这一点我们应当承认，这是一个杜撰的词。

So we are about to embark on a conversation about looksmaxxing, which we should acknowledge is a made up word.

它原本是互联网上的一个迷因社群，如今已演变为一种文化现象，激发了你所熟知的每一家杂志和报纸——包括我们——的数十篇文章。

It is an Internet meme community turned cultural phenomenon, inspiring dozens of articles in every magazine and newspaper that you've heard of, including ours.

而所有这些关注，据我所知，归根结底都是人们试图理解这一趋势究竟是什么，以及它反映了我们文化的哪些方面。

And all of that attention, as far as I can tell, essentially boils down to everyone trying to understand what exactly this trend actually is and what it means about our culture.

那我们就从这里开始吧。

So let's start there.

什么是‘外貌最大化’？

What is looksmaxxing?

‘外貌最大化’是一个主要由男性组成的网络社群，他们致力于通过一切可能的手段让自己更具吸引力。

So looksmaxxing is a community of mostly men on the Internet who are dedicated to making themselves more attractive by any means necessary.

那具体指的是什么？

And what does that mean exactly?

我的意思是，根据他们自己的标准，为了提升吸引力，他们几乎愿意做任何事。

What I mean is that there's almost no end to what they'll do to make themselves more attractive according to their standards.

从大多数人会做的事情，比如洗澡和保证充足睡眠，到从中国订购实验性化学药品、服用荷尔蒙、接受手术，甚至还有他们最值得注意的行为之一。

From things that most people do, like showering and getting a good night's sleep, to ordering experimental chemicals from China, to taking hormones, to getting surgeries, to and this is one of the most sort of noteworthy things that they do.

他们用锤子敲打面部骨骼，认为通过造成大量微小的骨损伤，骨头会重新生长得更大、更吸引人。

They tap their facial bones with a hammer on the theory that by causing lots of microscopic damage to the bone, it will grow back bigger and more attractive.

真是太疯狂了。

Just so wild.

好吧。

Okay.

那么这些人是谁呢？

So who are these people?

这些敲骨者？

These bone tappers?

对。

Right.

要理解looksmaxxing群体，我们必须从网络上的incel社群说起。

So to understand looksmaxxers, we have to start with the Internet community of incels.

这些是自称被迫独身的年轻男性。

These are young men who describe themselves as involuntarily celibate.

这些人认为，因为他们不符合传统的审美标准，因为他们没有生来拥有理想的基因。

These guys believe because they aren't conventionally attractive, because they weren't born with the right genes.

我们说的是高个子、宽肩膀、坚毅的下颌线，所有这些特质，他们认为自己永远无法吸引并找到伴侣。

We're talking tall, broad shoulders, strong jawline, all of the above, that they'll never be capable of attracting and getting a mate.

是的。

Right.

而愤世嫉俗者以有时暴力、常常极度仇恨他人而闻名，尤其是对女性。

And incels are known for being a sometimes violent, often very hateful group of people, especially toward women.

是的。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

这是一个相当虚无主义的亚文化。

It's a pretty nihilistic subculture.

他们的想法是，如果你不够有吸引力，你的人生就完了。

The idea is that if you aren't attractive enough, your life is over.

外貌最大化者是这一意识形态的一个分支，其观点没那么悲观。

Looksmaxxers are an offshoot of that ideology that is slightly less fatalistic.

他们对自己的外貌以及吸引力在人生结果中的作用极为苛刻，但他们也认为，通过极端手段改善外貌，是有可能超越生理缺陷的。

They're very, very harsh about their appearance and about the role that attractiveness plays in life outcomes, but they also think it's possible to move past physical shortcomings by going to extreme lengths to improve their physical appearance.

就是猛击自己的脸。

To hammering your face.

没错。

That's right.

重要的是要说明，他们都追求一种非常特定的美理想。

And it's important to say that they're all aiming for a very specific ideal of beauty.

那这种理想是什么？

And what is that ideal?

给我描述一下。

Define it for me.

好吧，这个理想形象就是一个白人男性。

Well, the ideal is a white guy.

我的意思是，这一点无可回避。

I mean, there's no getting around that.

这个运动被指责为赤裸裸的种族主义。

This movement has been accused of being outright racist.

在这个亚文化的标准中，任何非白人的面孔都没有容身之地。

There's no room in this sort of subculture for a face that isn't white in its standards of what's beautiful.

事实上，去年《连线》杂志报道过一个黑人男子尝试制作外貌优化内容，结果他因种族歧视被排挤出这个亚文化圈。

In fact, last year, Wired had a story about a a black guy who tried to make looksmaxxing content, and he was sort of racially harassed out of the subculture.

是的。

Yeah.

这听起来确实很种族主义。

So that definitely sounds racist.

对。

Yeah.

如果你去looksmaxxing论坛，那里的话语常常充满种族主义和虚无主义色彩。

And if you go on the looksmaxxing forum, the rhetoric is frequently pretty racist, nihilistic.

这真的很恶劣。

It's it's nasty.

looksmaxxing者可能会把这些指控视为愚蠢，或者声称他们只是在讽刺或故意制造震惊，但他们实际上并没有做任何事情来反驳这些指控。

And looksmaxxers might dismiss that accusation as dumb or that they're being ironic or deliberately shocking, but they don't really do anything to disprove it.

事实上，他们的理想美是特定的一位白人演员——马特·博默。

In fact, their ideal of beauty is a specific actor, a white actor named Matt Bomer.

如果你不知道他长什么样，去搜一下看看。

Look him up if you don't know what he looks like.

他们会测量自己脸上这些比例和特征。

And they measure these ratios and features on their face.

因此，对他们来说，瞳孔之间的距离、鼻子到上唇的距离、眼睛的倾斜度——是上挑还是下垂、上眼睑露出的面积，这些你我可能从未想过的小细节都极其重要。

So it's like very important to them, the distance between their pupils, the distance from their nose to their upper lip, the slant of their eyes, whether they're upwardly slanted or downwardly slanted, the amount of upper eyelid that they show, really kind of granular details about the face that you and I probably have never thought about.

他们在网络论坛上沉迷于这些内容，发布照片，互相残酷批评，并分享各种提升外貌的技巧，以让自己更接近马特·博默的样子。

And they obsess about this stuff on online forums, and that's where they post photos, brutally criticize each other, and share various techniques for maximizing their looks to become more like Matt Bomer, essentially.

对。

Right.

而这种最大化外貌的理念，就是‘looksmaxxing’这个词的来源。

And that idea of maximizing your looks, that's where you get the word, looksmaxxing.

有点吧。

Sort of.

这其实是网络俚语，最初源自角色扮演游戏的世界。

So it's a bit of Internet lingo that initially comes from the world of role playing games.

比如《龙与地下城》和《最终幻想》。

So, like, think of Dungeons and Dragons and Final Fantasy.

基本上，游戏开始时，你会获得一定数量的点数来分配给你的角色。

Basically, at the beginning of the game, you get a set number of points to distribute to your character.

这些玩家会把所有点数都投入到一个属性里，那就是外貌。

And the idea is that those guys are taking all of those points and feeding them only into a single bucket, and that's their looks.

所有这些本质上是什么？

And all of this is basically what?

为了吸引女性吗？

In service of attracting women?

有点吧，但不完全如此。

Kind of, but not completely.

而这正是looksmaxxing与我们之前讨论的非自愿独身者文化的不同之处。

And this is where looksmaxxing is actually different from the incel culture we talked about earlier.

非自愿独身者完全专注于女性，以及他们如何被女性不公平对待。

So incels are completely focused on women and how they've been unfairly treated by women.

looksmaxxers可能从这个起点出发，但他们把女性以及女性对他们的吸引力视为一种地位象征。

Looksmaxxers may start from that place, but they treat women and women being attracted to them as much more of a status symbol.

这对looksmaxxers来说，意味着他们已经开始做一件他们称之为‘提升’的事情。

It's a sign to looksmaxxers that they've started to do something that they call ascend.

那么‘提升’是什么意思？

And what does it mean to ascend?

‘提升’是looksmaxxers世界观中的一个关键概念。

So ascend is a kind of key concept in the looksmaxxer cosmology.

这个想法本质上是，他们从丑陋的状态转变为美丽的状态，而这种地位就是他们的回报。

The idea is essentially that they have moved from a state of ugliness to a state of beauty, and that this status is their reward.

看起来looksmaxxers非常关注其他男性如何看待社区中的每个个体，以及他们如何评价彼此。

It does seem as though the looksmaxxers are very focused on other men and how they view each individual member of this community, how they rate each other.

完全正确。

Totally.

这是一个非常注重将自己与他人进行有利或不利比较的社群。

It's a community that is really focused on comparing yourself favorably or unfavorably to other men.

他们对此有一个专门的术语。

And there's a term they use for this.

这叫做mogging。

It's called mogging.

mogging。

Mogging.

mogging。

Mogging.

所以mogging就是当你证明自己比别人更优秀的时候。

So mogging is when you prove yourself superior to someone else.

如果你比另一个男人更有吸引力，你就是在嘲讽他。

So if you're more attractive than another man, you're mocking him.

你的外貌在嘲讽他。

Your looks mocking him.

你在地位游戏中击败了他。

You're beating him in the status game.

你可能是身高上嘲讽他。

You could be height mocking him.

你可能是头发上嘲讽他。

You could be hair mocking him.

你可能是下巴上嘲讽他。

You could be jaw mocking him.

吸引女性的能力只是这个地位游戏的一部分。

And the ability to attract women is just one part of that status game.

好的。

Okay.

那么，网上这一小部分人，这个小众群体，是如何变得更为主流的呢？

So how does this small subset of people online, this niche, become much more mainstream?

这其中的故事是怎样的？

What's the story there?

没错。

Right.

所以，looksmaxxing 能够进入流行文化的最高层，其实主要归功于一个人。

So the explosion of looksmaxxing into the kind of highest reaches of pop culture was really due to one guy.

他自称 Clavicular。

And he's a guy who calls himself Clavicular.

各位，怎么了？

What's going on, fellas?

今天，我想稍微做个关于替泽帕肽的评测。

Today, I wanna do a little bit of a review on tirzepatide

或者Mogarno，你爱怎么叫都行。

or Mogarno, whatever you want.

所以Clavicular本名是布雷登·彼得斯。

So Clavicular was born Braden Peters.

他是一名20岁的网络红人和直播主，最初在looksmaxxing社区内获得了一定的知名度。

He's a 20 year old Internet personality and a livestreamer, and he first gained some degree of recognition within the actual looksmaxxing community.

所以他本身就是这个社区的一员。

So he comes from the community itself.

他不仅是论坛上最活跃的发帖者之一，还愿意在论坛上将looksmaxxing技巧推向极致。

And he was a guy who was one of the most frequent posters on the message board, but also someone who was sort of willing to push looksmaxxing techniques as far as they would go on the board itself.

那具体是指什么呢？

And what exactly does that mean?

所以，当彼得斯还是个青少年时，他就开始尝试各种方法。

So, basically, when Peters was a teenager, he started experimenting with all these techniques.

最近怎么样？

What's up?

我只是想全面介绍一下SARMs，也就是选择性雄激素受体调节剂。

I just wanna give a comprehensive overview of SARMs or selective androgen receptor modules.

但不仅如此，他在进行这些实验的同时，还不断在这个论坛上发布自己的成果。

But not only that, as he's doing this, he's also posting all the time on this forum about his results.

我们来聊聊针对你的不同目标，应该使用什么样的SARM组合。

Wanna go over what SARM stack you should run for each of your specific goals.

因此，他几乎成了所有对looksmaxxing感兴趣的人的实验小白鼠。

So he's almost like a guinea pig for all these other guys who are interested in looksmaxxing.

他在评估各种方法。

He's evaluating methods.

他在分享自己的结果。

He's sharing his results.

他在论坛上指导其他人如何自己尝试这些方法。

He's giving instructions for people on the forum for how to try these things themselves.

而在社区内部，这让他成为了核心人物。

And that within the community, it sort of made him the main character.

那他是怎么做到不仅在这一处变强的呢？

So how does he get bigger than just this one place?

嘿。

Hey.

大家最近怎么样？

What's going on, guys?

我知道你们肯定看到了这个视频的标题，我们也很好奇会发生什么。

I you know, I'm sure you guys saw the title of this video, and, you know, we're interested to see what happens.

所以我想把这个视频当作一个小故事来讲。

So I wanna do this video as a little bit of a story time.

好的。

Okay.

所以解释一下，Clavicular 是个青少年。

So explain Clavicular is a teenager.

当他18岁的时候，他上了大学。

And when he's 18, he goes to college.

在他大一那年

During his freshman year

不幸的是，有人把我的所有帖子都存档并发送给了我们大学的公共安全部门。

Unfortunately, someone decided to archive all of my posts and send them all to the public safety at my university.

他在宿舍里被发现藏有一大堆类固醇，结果被开除了。

He gets caught with a bunch of steroids in his dorm room and gets kicked out.

所以我不太确定是论坛上哪个人决定这么做，但我知道肯定是来自looksmaxx论坛的某个人，很遗憾。

So I'm not exactly sure which person on the forum decided to go ahead and do this, but I know it was someone from the looksmaxx forum, unfortunately.

所以我想他们最终赢了我。

So I guess they got the best of me.

这对他是极其重要的一刻。

And this is an extremely important moment for him.

现在我可以全身心投入到looksmaxxing上，我觉得这最终会成为一件好事。

Now I am able to fully dedicate my time to looksmaxxing, so I think this is gonna wind up being a blessing in the end.

因为从这一刻起，他决定完全投身于looksmaxxing。

Because from here on out, he decides to devote himself completely to looksmaxxing.

他全力以赴。

He goes all in.

全力以赴。

All in.

我们开始了吗？

Are we up?

终于来了。

Oh, finally.

孩子们，孩子们，孩子们，孩子们。

Boys, boys, boys, boys.

你们今天怎么样？

How are doing today?

作为这一部分，他开始在Kick平台上直播自己的视频，这是一个类似于Twitch但更极端的平台。

And as a part of that, he starts streaming these live videos of himself on Kick, which is a platform, like, sort of a more extreme version of Twitch.

你的体脂率是首要的

Your body fat is the first

阻碍你的第一件事。

thing that's holding you back.

我都看不出来。

I can't even tell

你是在做表情还是不是。

if you're mugging or not.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

而且

And

他做了一些视频，内容是他去袭击别人，走出家门与人交谈。

he does videos where he's raiding people, and he's going out in the world and talking to people.

但有个快速的问题，因为这个直播圈里的每个人都说，我长得超丑、超难看，看起来像嗑药了。

But real quick question because everybody on this streaming world says I'm, like, super ugly and super hideous and I look cracked out.

你对我长相的第一印象是什么，兄弟？

What are your first initial thoughts on, like, my looks, bro?

我觉得你的外貌在平均水平左右，稍微好一点。

I would say that you're around average to slightly above average in looks.

所以你知道的。

So, you know

这一切吸引了一些更知名、受众更广的主播的注意。

And all of this catches the attention of some larger, more widely known streamers.

为什么她得了3.5分？

Why they So she got 3.5.

她该怎么改进呢？

Why and how could she improve?

嗯，她的中面部太长了。

Well, she Her mid face is way too long.

这些主播之所以把他放到自己的直播里，是因为他是个让人无法移开视线的角色。

And these guys put him on their streams because he's such a kind of a character you can't look away from.

你知道，所有面部的凸度都不对。

You know, all the facial convexities are wrong.

她的鼻根凹陷。

Her radix is recessed.

继续。

Moving on.

好的。

Okay.

那么，我们还有多少时间？

Well, how much time do we

这个播客还有多久？

have on the podcast?

部分

Part

他之所以能如此迅速地成名，部分原因是他显然在刻意引发争议。

of the reason he becomes so famous so quickly is that he's obviously courting controversy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我本来想谈谈一个

I was gonna talk about a a

有争议的精益最大化技巧。

controversial Lean Maxxing hack.

不知道你是否想

Don't know if you wanna

所以他谈到了他为了保持瘦削而做的极端行为。

So he was talking about the really extreme things he'd done to stay thin.

连续三天，我大量服用阿得拉和甲基苯丙胺来抑制食欲。

For three days, I spammed a combination of Adderall and methamphetamine for appetite suppression.

比如，服用甲基苯丙胺。

Like, for example, taking meth.

服用甲基苯丙胺。

Taking meth.

服用甲基苯丙胺。

Taking meth.

我们马上要使用一些溶脂剂。

We're about to do some fat dissolver.

各位，鼓掌。

Guys, clap.

在另一件有争议的事件中，他实际上在直播中将一些溶脂肽注射到了当时17岁女友的脸上。

In another controversial incident, actually live on stream, he injected some fat dissolving peptides into the face of his then 17 year old girlfriend.

聊天区，我们正在提升颜值。

Chat, we're looksmaxxing here.

我们正在提升颜值。

We're looksmaxxing here.

这都没问题。

It's all good.

Clav医生？

Doctor Clav?

是的。

Yeah.

我的天。

My god.

然后他还和尼克·富恩特斯、安德鲁·泰特等争议人物一起直播。

And then he goes on stream with controversial figures like Nick Fuentes and Andrew Tate.

让我们看看你是不是比我强。

Let's see if you're stronger than me.

兄弟，你这家伙每打一针、每用一种药，都像个年轻人。

Bro, you're all a fucking young man on every fucking injection and drug in the world.

我是个抽雪茄的老头。

I'm an old man on cigars.

就这样。

That's it.

所以他去迈阿密的俱乐部，那里所有人都跟着唱坎耶·韦斯特的歌《Hail Hitler》。

So he goes in a club in Miami, and they're all chanting along to the Kanye West song Hail Hitler.

好吧。

Okay.

我的意思是，他和这些人来往。

I mean, he's associating with them.

他和他们一起唱希特勒万岁。

He's singing Heil Hitler with them.

我的意思是，我知道你说过外貌优化者会把种族主义的指控视为愚蠢，但这里又有一个明显的例子。

I mean, I know you said looksmaxxers dismiss accusations of racism as stupid, but here you have another overt example of it.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，克拉维克尔经常用那个N字头的词。

And, like, Clavicular routinely uses the n word.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

我问过他这件事。

I asked him about it.

而且他又说这很蠢，基本上就是认为其他记者小题大做。

And again, he said it was dumb, Basically, meaning other reporters trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

但你不能轻易淡化使用n字的行为。

But you can't really trivialize using the n word.

这纯粹就是种族主义。

It's just racist.

没错。

Right.

他根本没有考虑过这种语言可能造成的伤害。

He's not really giving any thought to the harm this language might cause.

对他和looksmaxxers来说，这只不过是一种另类的挑衅，这大概就是他们对使用这个词如此轻率的原因。

To him, to looksmaxxers, it's just another kind of trolling, which is probably why they're so glib about using it.

毕竟，在2026年的互联网上，这种言论能带来点击量。

And after all, on the Internet in 2026, that gets clicks.

这是一种扩大受众的方式。

It's a way of growing an audience.

对于像克拉维库拉尔这样从男性互联网或青少年男孩互联网中走出来的人来说，利用这些人物来提升自己的名气，似乎是最自然不过的事情。

And so for someone like Clavicular who comes out of a kind of men's Internet or really a teenage boy's Internet, using these guys as a way to become more famous would seem like the most natural thing in the world.

如今，他获得了一定的知名度后，实际上在某种程度上与这种言论保持了距离。

And now that he's gained a degree of of renown, he's actually distanced himself to some degree from this kind of rhetoric.

我觉得人们根本不知道该如何应对我的意识形态，所以他们迫切地想弄清楚我属于哪个政治阵营。

I would say sort of people don't really know how to handle my ideology, so they wanna figure out which political camp I'm a part of so desperately.

他说了许多，还告诉我他并不关心政治。

He says a lot, and he told me he doesn't care about politics.

事实上，这又是另一个looksmaxxing术语。

And that in fact, here's another one of those looksmaxxing terms.

说政治是小丑。

Say politics are jester.

我不打算参与其中。

It's not something that, I wanna involve myself in.

政治是小丑。

Politics is jester.

小丑是什么意思？

What is jester?

好吧。

Okay.

所以‘小丑’基本上指的是你为了吸引注意而让自己出洋相，这是一种浪费时间的行为。

So jester basically means anything where you're making a fool of yourself for others to get attention, and it's a waste of time.

你知道，我主要追求的是美学，尽可能地提升自己的外貌。

You know, my my main pursuit is that of aesthetics and improving my looks to the maximum degree.

所以，这件事竟然变成了一种政治现象，这完全让我无法理解。

So the fact that that's become a political phenomenon just really doesn't make sense to me at all.

明白了。

Got it.

那他现在有多火呢？

So how viral at this point is he going exactly?

在直播平台Kick上，那是Clavicular的原始内容，纯粹的Clavicular风格。

So on Kick, which is the streaming platform, it's sort of clavicular raw, the raw clavicular feed.

在

At

在任何给定时刻，可能有上万人正在观看他的行为。

any given time, there might be 10,000 people just watching what he does.

明白了。

Okay.

但当然，互联网处理的是大量数据，巨大的数字。

But, of course, the Internet deals in large numbers, huge numbers.

而这些数字真正开始飙升，是因为所有观看他直播并从原始直播流中截取片段的人。

And where those really start to rack up is all of these people who are watching his stream and taking clips from the raw feed.

他们把这些片段剪辑下来，上传到规模大得多的社交媒体平台，比如TikTok和Instagram。

And they take these clips, and they upload them to the much bigger social media platforms, TikTok, Instagram.

如果你想想这个循环，那就是数以百万计的人，像我们这样的人。

And if you think about that, that circle, it's millions and millions of people, people like us.

而我们这些人只是对互联网很熟悉、经常使用社交媒体的人。

And we're people who are just sort of Internet fluent and use social media.

那就是我们遇到Clavicular的地方。

That's where we encounter Clavicular.

这也是我第一次注意到他的方式。

And it's how I first noticed him.

当我开始注意到他时，我就开始好奇：这个人是谁？

And I guess when I started noticing him, I started wondering about who is this guy?

是什么驱使着他？

What motivates him?

他来自哪里？

Where does he come from?

他未来想要什么？

What does he want for the future?

这就是为什么我想去亚利桑那州见他。

And that's why I wanted to go to Arizona and meet him.

而这正是你所做的。

Which is exactly what you did.

我们先短暂休息一下。

We're gonna take a quick break.

回来后，我们会请你说说亲自与克拉维库里尔坐下来交谈的真实经历，以及你了解到究竟是什么驱动着这个人的。

And when we come back, we're gonna have you tell us about what it was actually like to sit down with Clavicular in person and what you learned about what actually drives this guy.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是丹·巴里，是《纽约时报》的一名资深记者。

I'm Dan Barry, and I'm a longtime reporter with The New York Times.

我在这里已经三十年了，见证了许多变化。

I've been here for thirty years, and I've seen a lot of things change.

在网站出现之前，我就在这里了。

I was here before there was a website.

但有一件事始终没有改变，那就是《纽约时报》的使命：追随事实，无论它指向何方。

But one thing hasn't changed at all, and that's the mission of The New York Times, to follow the facts wherever they lead.

如果这意味着要发布政府、领导人或名人不希望公开的内容，那并不是我们关心的问题。

And if that means publishing something a government or a leader or a celebrity doesn't want aired, that's not our concern.

我从未被要求违背事实去迁就任何人。

I've never been told to go against the facts to accommodate anyone.

如果有人这么要求我，我恐怕会直接离开。

And if I had, I would have, quite frankly, left the building.

当我报道9·11事件 aftermath 时是这样，如今我报道当今的美国时，依然是这样。

This is the way it was when I was covering the aftermath of nine eleven, and this is the way it is now as I cover The United States of today.

如果你相信事实驱动的报道的重要性，可以通过成为《纽约时报》订户来支持它。

If you believe in the importance of fact driven reporting, you can support it by becoming a New York Times subscriber.

如果你已经订阅了，这位资深记者向你表示感谢。

And if you already subscribe, this veteran reporter thanks you.

所以，乔，我太想知道当你第一次见到克拉维克拉时，你对他的第一印象是什么？

So, Joe, I am dying to know, what were your first impressions when you meet Clavicular?

首先，这次会面是在哪里发生的？

First of all, where did this meeting happen?

给我描述一下当时的场景。

Like, set the scene for me.

所以克拉维库拉尔到凤凰城来举办几场派对。

So Clavicular was in the Phoenix area to host a few parties.

所以我去了凤凰城。

So that's where I went, to Phoenix.

凤凰城也是Waymo自动驾驶汽车的测试市场之一。

Phoenix is also one of the test markets for Waymo, the self driving car.

于是我乘坐Waymo去了他在坦佩的Airbnb住所，但Waymo把我丢在了离Airbnb有十五分钟步行路程的地方。

And so I'd taken a Waymo to the Airbnb he was staying at in Tempe, but the Waymo dropped me off, like, a fifteen minute walk from the Airbnb.

你根本无能为力。

And there's, like, nothing you can do.

车上没有司机，你没法说：其实我不想在这儿下车。

You there's no driver to say, like, actually, this is not where I wanna go.

而且这是亚利桑那州。

And so, like, it's Arizona.

天气很热。

It's hot.

所以等我真正到达Airbnb时，我已经有点汗流浃背、衣衫不整了。

So, like, by the time I actually get to the Airbnb, I'm, like, kinda sweaty and disheveled.

我是个41岁的爸爸，却要马上去见这个20岁的互联网红人。

I'm, a 41 year old dad, and I'm, like, about to meet this 20 year old, like, face of the Internet.

我一直在想，我到底为什么会在这里？

And I'm just kinda thinking, like, what am I doing here exactly?

可以说，这一刻你因为各种原因都非常在意自己的外表。

Suffice it to say, you're conscious of your appearance in this moment for many reasons.

我的意思是

I mean

我意识到自己此刻并没有在刻意打扮自己。

I'm conscious that I'm not looksmaxxing at the

这一刻。

moment.

好吧。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

所以克拉维克的摄影师兼私人助理打开了门，克拉维克从卧室走出来，他刚醒过来。

So Clavicular's cameraman and sort of personal assistant opens the door, and Clavicular walks out of his bedroom where he's just woken up.

你更喜欢叫他Clav还是Clavicular？

Do you prefer Clav, Clavicular?

我觉得叫Clav吧？

I think Clav?

好的。

Okay.

所以你和他坐下来了。

So you're sitting down with him.

你们的对话是怎样的？

What's the conversation like?

跟我讲讲吧。

Tell me about it.

所以在进入对话之前，也许先了解我原本以为自己去那里是要弄清楚什么会更有帮助。

So before I get into the conversation, it might be useful to understand what I sort of thought I was there to figure out.

当然。

Sure.

因为网上有数百小时的Clavicular的视频内容。

Because there's hundreds of hours of Clavicular online.

他几乎什么话都说。

He said almost anything.

所以某种程度上，你会想，采访这样一个人有什么意义呢？

So in some ways, it's like, well, what's the point of interviewing someone like this?

我想弄清楚的是，他这些行为和言论中有多少是装出来的，又有多少是他真正生活并相信的，这些让他突然间变得如此出名。

What I was trying to figure out is to what extent is this a put on, and to what extent does he actually live and believe this stuff that he's become really famous for all

突然间？

of a sudden?

他最近在很多人的社交媒体上突然冒了出来。

He sort of have popped up on a lot of people's socials in the past.

那你怎么做呢？

And how do you do that?

嗯，每当我采访某人时，我都会让他谈谈自己的童年。

Well, like, anytime I'm profiling someone, I asked him to talk about his childhood.

从头开始。

Begin at the beginning.

你来自哪里？

Where are you from?

你的成长经历是怎样的？

What was growing up like for you?

你的父母是做什么的？

What's your parents?

就是这类日常的问题。

You know, that kind of everyday.

我是在新泽西州一个叫霍博肯的小镇长大的。

Well, I grew up in a pretty small town called Hoboken, New Jersey.

在新泽西州长大。

Grew up in New Jersey.

在霍博肯长大。

Grew up in Hoboken.

我小时候特别喜欢 Nerf 枪。

I really like the Nerf guns growing up.

他说自己是个特别执着、近乎痴迷的孩子。

He said he was an obsessive, sort of a hyper fixated kid.

所以我可不是那种：哦，随便买一把就行了。

So I wasn't like, oh, let me just get one of these.

我非得要五十把不可。

I had to have, like, 50.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这有点像我的性格特点。

Was kinda like my personality trait.