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你好。
Hi.
我是索拉纳·莱恩。
I'm Solana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业能力帮助您理解正在发生的事。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用程序的“观看”标签页中。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
您无需成为订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用程序即可开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
来自《纽约时报》，我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯，这里是《每日新闻》。
From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.
当斯蒂芬·科尔伯特宣布，政府对深夜节目的日益强硬立场导致他无法播出原计划对一位民主党参议员候选人的采访时，整个媒体界都为之震动。
When Stephen Colbert announced that the government's increasingly aggressive stance toward late night meant that he could not air a planned interview with a Democratic senate candidate, it sent chills throughout the media.
就在上周末，联邦通信委员会主席威胁要对有关伊朗战争的报道进行惩罚。
And then this past weekend, the chair of the Federal Communications Commission threatened to punish news outlets over coverage of the war in Iran.
今天，我的同事吉姆·鲁滕伯格解释了白宫如何试图塑造其议程的媒体报导，以及它在打压广播电视方面愿意走多远。
Today, my colleague Jim Rutenberg explains how the White House is trying to shape media coverage of its agenda and just how far it's willing to go in its crackdown on network television.
今天是3月18日，星期三。
It's Wednesday, March 18.
吉姆·鲁滕伯格，欢迎再次做客节目。
Jim Rutenberg, welcome back to the show.
非常感谢您邀请我。
Thanks so much for having me.
吉姆，我们在这档节目中多次向你求助，当有关于媒体、言论自由和政府干预的问题时。
Jim, we've turned to you a few times on the show now when we have questions about the media and free speech and government intervention.
就在上个周末，实际上，联邦通信委员会主席布伦丹·卡尓通过一条推文威胁媒体公司，暗示他将撤销那些播放他称之为‘谎言和歪曲’的伊朗战争报道的电视台执照。
And just this last weekend, in fact, Brendan Carr, the chairman of the SEC, threatened media companies by basically implying in a tweet that he would revoke station licenses that ran with coverage of the Iran war that he called, quote, hoaxes and distortions.
在那之后，再加上他与深夜节目，尤其是与斯蒂芬·科尔伯特之间的争端，我们今天再次邀请你来向我们解释，我们正在电视屏幕上看到的这一切究竟是怎么回事。
And between that and the dust ups he's had with late night, most recently with Stephen Colbert, we wanted to have you on yet again here today to explain to us what we are seeing play out on our television screens.
上周末卡尓主席的推文，是这种模式的一部分。
What happened over the weekend with chairman Carr's tweet was part of a pattern.
自从他于特朗普任期开始担任主席以来，他就一直在发出此类威胁，警告电视台不要播放政府不喜欢的内容。
He's been making threats like this since he started as the chairman at the start of Trump's term to warn stations away from certain content the administration doesn't like.
这一次尤其令人们感到震惊，因为这是在战争期间，信息极为珍贵、公众迫切需要了解真相之时，政府对电视台执照发出的威胁。
And this one was extra alarming to people because it was a governmental threat against station licenses at a time of war when information is at a premium, where the public really needs to understand what's going on.
但我想强调的一点是，他所做出的这种含蓄威胁，在法律上是站不住脚的。
But one thing I wanna say here is this veiled threat he was making, it's really legally dubious.
联邦通信委员会不能随意因为不同意内容就没收执照。
The FCC can't go willy nilly grabbing licenses because it disagrees with the content.
事实上，法律完全禁止这种行为。
In fact, it's totally prohibited under the law.
它确实对电视台的执照拥有控制权。
It does have control over stations' licenses.
但他所谈论的撤销电视台执照，是一个非常繁琐的法律程序。
But what he's talking about to take away licenses from television stations, it's a very onerous legal process.
所以我们拭目以待事情会如何发展。
So we'll see how that plays out.
但我们确实有其他属于同一运动的案例，联邦通信委员会正在以几十年未见的方式虚张声势。
But we do have other test cases that are part of the same campaign, where the FCC is really saber rattling in a way that we haven't seen in decades.
我们已经看到过这种行为能走多远，以及其影响有多严重。
And we have seen how far it can go and how serious the effects can be.
最显著的是，当真正落实到行动时，恰恰是在深夜电视节目上，尤其是CBS的斯蒂芬·科尔伯特节目。
And most notably, where we've seen the rubber really meet the road has been, of all places, with late night television, more specifically, the Stephen Colbert show of CBS.
提醒我们一下，科尔伯特那里到底发生了什么？
And remind us what happened with Colbert.
这件事其实从一月份就开始了。
Well, it really starts in January.
联邦通信委员会通知广播公司，我们将把所谓的‘平等时间规则’应用于深夜电视节目，规定当候选人出现在非新闻类节目中时，所有参选同一职位的候选人必须获得平等的播出时间。
The FCC notifies broadcasters that we are going to apply a rule called the equal time rule to late night television, and it says that when candidates for office are on non news programming, there has to be an equal amount of time to all candidates running for a certain office.
他们必须在该电视台获得平等的播出时间。
They need equal time on that station.
你们都收到通知了。
You're all on notice.
我们会严格执行这项规定。
We're gonna apply it.
所以几周后，当斯蒂芬·科尔伯特邀请塔利科上他的节目时，塔利科正在与贾斯敏·克罗克特竞争初选，CBS的律师们通知斯蒂芬·科尔伯特及其制作团队：你们这里可能有问题。
So a few weeks later, when Stephen Colbert books Talarico on his show, Talarico is now in a primary campaign against Jasmine Crockett, CBS's lawyers notify Stephen Colbert and his producers, hey.
你们可能会触犯联邦通信委员会的规定。
You could have a problem here with the F.
F.C.C。
C.
C。
C.
因为你可能涉及平等时间问题。
Because you have an equal time issue potentially.
斯蒂芬·科尔伯特和网络方对CBS告知他的程度存在分歧：是明确禁止他播出对塔拉里科的采访，还是仅仅发出警告。
And Stephen Colbert and the network disagree to the extent to which CBS told him not to air an interview with Talarico or whether they were just warning him.
但是
But
你知道今晚我的嘉宾中谁不是吗？
You know you know who is not one of my guests tonight?
那就是德克萨斯州众议员詹姆斯·塔拉里科。
That's Texas state representative James Talarico.
斯蒂芬·科尔伯特在节目中表示，他被告知不能邀请塔拉里科做客。
Stephen Colbert goes on his show and says that he's been told he can't have Talarico on.
现在他也不能在YouTube上邀请他，而YouTube不属于F。
Now he can't have him on YouTube, which doesn't fall under the F.
C。
C.
C。
C.
因为我的电视台显然不希望我们讨论这个，那我们就来谈谈这个。
And because my network clearly doesn't want us to talk about this, let's talk about this.
而且
And
他确实引起了人们对这个老牌机构发起的竞选活动的关注，而居家观众早已不记得或根本没听说过这个机构。
he really does call attention to this campaign from this old agency that people sitting at home hadn't heard of or hadn't heard about in years.
你可能听说过这个叫做‘平等时间规则’的东西。
You you you might have heard of this thing called the equal time rule.
明白吗？
Okay?
这是联邦通信委员会的一项旧规定，仅适用于广播和电视。
It's an old FCC rule that applies only to radio and broadcast television.
他对此大肆渲染。
He makes a big stink out of this.
我们直接叫出它的真面目吧。
Let's just call this what it is.
唐纳德·特朗普的政府想要压制任何在电视上批评特朗普的人，因为特朗普只看电视。
Donald Trump's administration wants to silence anyone who says anything bad about Trump on TV because all Trump does is watch TV.
为了明确一点，在科勒伯这个具体例子中，联邦通信委员会并没有告诉CBS不能让塔拉里科上节目。
And just to be clear, in this specific example with Colbert, the FCC didn't tell CBS it couldn't have Talarico on the show.
我们看到的更像是CBS为了避免触怒联邦通信委员会而采取的预防性举措。
What we saw was more of a preemptive move by CBS to avoid incurring the wrath of the FCC.
说得完全正确。
That's exactly right.
这并不是布伦丹·卡尓或联邦通信委员会说：
This is not an example of Brendan Carr, the FCC, saying, hey.
斯蒂芬·科勒伯不能请那个人上节目。
Stephen Colbert can't have that person on.
但这里绝对真实的是，如果联邦通信委员会不在一月份发布关于深夜电视的新指引，CBS内部根本不会有任何讨论，而这向整个深夜电视界、整个电视网发出了明确警告：我们会密切监视你们。
But what is absolutely true here is that there's no discussion inside of CBS if the FCC does not issue this new guidance on late night television in January, which is putting the whole late night world, the whole network world on notice that we're really going to be watching you here.
在这么多年的报道中，蕾切尔，这是我第一次看到一家主要电视台在政治内容决策上，直接回应联邦政府新颁布的政策。
And in so many years of covering this, Rachel, it was the first time that I had seen a moment where a content decision was made at a major network involving politics in direct reaction to a newly declared policy on the federal government level.
不过，吉姆，我一直想知道的是，为什么偏偏是深夜电视？
Something I've been wondering about though, Jim, is just why late night?
因为多年来我们一直听说，深夜节目的收视率在下降。
Because we've been hearing for years, right, that late night's numbers are declining.
所以我真的不明白，为什么政府会选择特别针对电视的这个板块。
So I don't really understand why the administration would choose to focus on this segment of television in particular.
好吧，我来告诉你。
Well, I'll tell you.
我和参与这项行动的保守派人士谈过。
And I've talked to some of the people involved on the conservative side in this effort.
他们会说，广播电视是免费的，每个美国人都可以免费收看，无需有线电视订阅，也无需互联网订阅。
And what they will say is that broadcast television is free, and every American can get it without needing a cable subscription, without needing an Internet subscription.
因此，到目前为止，它的覆盖面是其他任何东西都无法比拟的。
So it has a reach that nothing else has to this day.
是的。
Mhmm.
尽管收视率可能不如从前，但它在线上依然活跃。
And where ratings might not be what they once were, it also lives on online.
斯蒂芬·科尔伯特的片段、吉米·基梅尔的片段，它们在线上的传播方式与其他喜剧片段不同，而这部分原因在于它们所依托的广播平台依然具有价值。
Stephen Colbert's bits, Jimmy Kimmel's bits, they bounce around online in a way other comedy bits don't, and that is in part because of this broadcast platform they have, that it's still worth something.
它依然有价值。
It's still valuable.
但我认为，政府如今针对深夜节目有其深层原因，而这不仅仅是关于覆盖面。
But I think that there's a big reason that the administration's going after late night in this moment, and it's not just about reach.
这关乎多年来深夜电视的演变。
It's about sort of the evolution of late night television over the years.
纵观电视历史，深夜节目在媒体格局中塑造了独特的位置。
Throughout the course of TV history, late night has carved out this really unique role in the landscape.
这一角色多年来让它得以在监管范围之外自由发展。
One that has, over the years, let it sort of coast along beyond the reach of the regulators quite a bit.
因此，联邦通信委员会表示：看吧。
And so the SEC said, look.
也许这个规定很久没被应用了，但我们现在要严格执行同等时间规则，你们必须认真对待。
Maybe this hasn't been applied in a really long time, but we are going to hold you to this equal time standard, and you better come correct.
深夜节目是怎么获得如此特殊的地位，并形成你提到的这种豁免的呢？
How did Late Night end up getting such a privileged position and and end up with that carve out that you mentioned?
这说来话长，首先要从我们正在讨论的‘同等时间规则’说起。
Well, it's kind of a long story, and it starts really with the rule we are talking about, the equal time rule.
让我带你回到二十世纪二十年代吧。
Let me bring you, if you will, back to the nineteen twenties.
请。
Please.
我最钟爱的时代。
My favorite time.
我们正在WAAM广播，频率为1120千弗拉根。
We are broadcasting over WAAM, Operates on a frequency of 1,120 kilofragons.
人们都忘了，但当无线电在二十世纪二十年代刚出现时，政府和无线电行业正努力应对这种前所未有的新事物。
People forget this, but when radio was new, in the nineteen twenties, the government and the radio industry are grappling with this new thing, radio.
它正在做人类历史上从未有过的事情。
It's doing something that's never been done in human history.
它能通过电子方式同时向数百万人传递声音，极具感染力。
It is reaching millions of people at once electronically with sound, very evocative.
是的。
Mhmm.
但在无线电早期，这个行业面临巨大困难，因为任何人都可以购买发射器并在任何频率上发送信号。
But the industry was having a very hard time at the beginning of the radio days because anyone could get a transmitter and throw up a signal on any frequency.
因此，无线电一片混乱。
And so radio was a complete mess.
相互干扰的信号，杂音不断。
Competing signals, static.
这个行业需要政府出面来理清局面。
The industry needed government to come and sort it out.
于是政府基本上表示：我们要接管这一切。
So government basically said, we're taking control of this.
是的。
Mhmm.
我们将颁发许可证，赋予某些电台独家使用特定频率的权利。
We're gonna issue licenses for the exclusive use of certain station frequencies.
但作为交换，由于你们将拥有这种权力，我们期望你们承担某些责任，以确保其被负责任地使用。
But in return, because of this power you are going to have, we are going to expect you to do certain things to make sure it's used responsibly.
这可能会对政治产生重大影响，因为谁拥有电台，谁就能决定人们的想法。
This could really affect politics because whoever owns the station will get to dictate everything, what people think.
对。
Right.
因此，他们制定了一些规则，规定不得利用电台对城镇中最争议的问题提供片面的陈述。
So what they came up with were rules that said you couldn't use a radio station to give one-sided versions of the most controversial issues in town.
你不能给某位候选人优势。
You can't give one candidate the advantage.
因此，出台了同等时间规则，规定如果你以某种费率、在一定时间内为某位候选人提供广告时间，就必须也为另一位候选人提供。
And so the equal time rule comes about to say, if you give one candidate advertising time at a certain rate for a certain amount of time, then you have to give the other.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果放了一方，就必须放另一方。
And if you have one on, you have to have the other on.
我们现在谈的是候选人。
This is now we're talking about candidates.
他们必须是候选人。
They have to be candidates.
为了进一步说明，这里的规则是，网络必须设法为另一方提供某种节目或广告，以获得类似的影响范围，对吧？
And just to explain that a little the protocol here is that the network has to figure out some way to give the other person some program, some advertisement that gets, like, what, the same reach?
或者
Or
对。
Right.
必须是一样的，你不能比如在凌晨四点给他们投放广告。
It's gotta have the same you can't, like, give them time at four in the morning.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
收视率必须相近。
It's gotta have similar ratings.
必须是免费的，而且时长必须相同。
It's gotta be free, and it's gotta be the same amount of time.
所以多年来，这一规定延伸到了电视领域。
So over the years, this transfers over to television.
但社会在不断演变。
But society is continually evolving.
政治也在不断演变。
Politics is continually evolving.
媒体也在不断演变。
Media is continually evolving.
到了二十世纪五十年代，这些规则的应用方式开始发生变化。
And by the nineteen fifties, the way this gets applied, all these rules, it starts to change.
比如，在辩论方面。
For instance, around debates.
有时候有二十个人竞选同一个职位，其中十七个人根本毫无胜算，我这么说吧。
Sometimes you have 20 people running for the same office and 17 of whom don't have a shot in heck, I'll say.
很好。
Good.
这是一档干净的家庭剧。
This is a clean family show.
所以对此没有联邦通信委员会的指导。
So No FCC guidance for this.
所以他们需要成为那个好的一方。
So they're needed to be the good one.
但说正经的，当你有17名候选人争相要求平等的播出时间时，你该怎么办？
But in all seriousness, what do you do when you have 17 candidates all clamoring for equal time?
电视台能够很有说服力地辩称：我们需要在这里获得豁免。
The stations were able to argue quite convincingly, we need an exemption here.
我们不可能每次辩论都给17名候选人平等的播出时间。
We can't have debates where you have to give 17 candidates equal time every time.
这根本行不通。
It's just completely unworkable.
在辩论这类事情上，我们必须自行决定。
We have to be left to our own devices when it comes to something like a debate.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这是一则新闻事件。
That's a news event.
在那里，新闻判断必须占据主导地位，由新闻工作者决定谁有资格参加辩论。
News judgment has to reign supreme there where the news people decide who is worthy of the debate.
所以新闻获得了豁免。
So news gets exempted.
纪录片，本质上也是新闻。
Documentaries, they're basically news too.
它们也需要被豁免。
They need to be exempted.
于是，这些豁免条款不断被添加进来。
So you have all these exemptions getting added.
这些豁免之所以被添加，是因为政府意识到，我们不应该去干预新闻播报中的播出时长分配，因为新闻播报应当基于新闻价值来决定内容。
And they're getting added because the government realized that we should not be refereeing the minutes of airtime on a news broadcast because a news broadcast should be dictated based on what is newsworthy.
是的。
Yeah.
人们默认新闻工作者是出于善意行事的。
There's this presumption that news people operate in good faith.
他们尽力而为。
They do their best.
政府必须避免干预他们。
The government has to stay out of their way.
他们用一个术语来描述这个概念：真诚的新闻。
And they apply a term to this idea, bona fide news.
这是真正的新闻，新闻从业者会被信任，以他们最好的能力呈现，保持中立、符合新闻专业标准，并服务于公共利益。
That's legit news that news people are gonna be trusted to present to the best of their ability that will be nonpartisan, journalistically valid, and serving the public interest.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
因此，这成为了对平等时间规则的新理解。
So that becomes the new understanding of the equal time rule.
但该规则仍然严格适用于任何可能被视为娱乐的内容。
But the rule still very much applies to anything that might be considered entertainment.
所以，如果一位候选人参加游戏节目或其他类似节目，就会触发平等时间规则。
So if you have a candidate come on a game show or something, that would trigger the equal time rule.
如果候选人出现在新闻节目中，平等时间规则就不适用。
If you have a candidate on a news show, the equal time does not apply.
很简单。
Very simple.
对吧？
Right?
在二十世纪五十年代，这很有道理。
In the nineteen fifties, it makes a lot of sense.
这两个领域基本上是完全分离的。
These two worlds are pretty much completely separate.
明白了。
Got it.
但多年来，娱乐和新闻领域开始越来越多地融合在一起。
But over the years, the worlds of entertainment and news, they start to come together a lot more.
因此，实施这一平等时间规则变得复杂得多。
And applying this equal time rule starts to get a lot more complicated.
为什么这么说？
How so?
一方面，越来越多的娱乐人士进入政治领域。
So you have, on the one hand, more and more entertainers entering the world of politics.
有一天当球队处于困境时。
Someday when the team's up against it.
第一个例子，罗纳德·里根。
Exhibit a, Ronald Reagan.
在参选之前，大多数人只知道他是一名演员。
Most people knew him as an actor before he was running.
他现在成了政治家，先竞选加利福尼亚州州长，然后竞选总统。
He's now a politician, and he runs for governor of California, then president.
让他进去，全力以赴。
Ask him to go in there with all they've got.
为基珀赢下这一场。
Win just one for the Kipper.
这给播放他旧电影的电视台带来了问题，而这些电影在电视上到处都是。
That's causing problems for stations that run his old movies, and they're all over TV.
所以，与他竞争的候选人可以去找电视台说：嘿。
So candidates who are running against him can go to the stations and say, hey.
我想获得两小时的免费播出时间来弥补这一点。
I want two hours of free airtime to make up for that.
如果这些电视台不得不开始免费提供两小时的播出时间，它们将损失大量收入。
And those television stations would stand to lose a lot of money if they have to start giving away two hours of time.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
与此同时，这种趋势也在反向发生。
And then at the same time, it's coming back the other way.
候选人、州长比尔·奥康纳。
Candidate governor Bill O'Connor.
现在有一些政客试图涉足娱乐行业。
You have politicians trying their hand at entertainment.
他们越来越多地出现在深夜脱口秀节目中。
They're increasingly showing up on late night talk shows.
比尔·克林顿，他某种程度上改变了游戏规则。
Bill Clinton, he sort of changes the game.
他上了阿森尼奥·霍尔的深夜节目，不只是坐着谈论议题或让自己显得亲民。
He goes on Arsenio Hall's show, late night program, and he doesn't just sit and talk about the issues or make himself relatable.
他还拿起萨克斯风演奏，像个酷哥。
He goes and he plays the saxophone, Mister Hip.
你有没有想过要职业演奏？
Did you ever think about playing professionally?
有啊。
Yeah.
今晚我很享受。
And I liked it tonight.
我喜欢站在了队伍的另一边。
I liked being on the other side of the posse.
是的。
Yeah.
说到你鼓手说的话。
Speaking of what your drummer said.
什么？
What?
他说，如果音乐这条路走不通，你随时可以去竞选总统。
He said if this music thing doesn't work out, you can always run for president.
这有什么新闻价值吗？
Is that news?
娱乐？
Entertainment?
现在一切都混在一起了。
It's all mixing together now.
这把整个深夜电视界推入了一个无人清楚该如何应对的监管法律灰色地带。
And this pitches the whole late night world into this regulatory legal nether region that no one quite knows what to do with.
但最终，在2000年代中期，联邦通信委员会不得不介入。
Finally, though, in the mid two thousands, the FCC has to weigh in.
那之后发生了什么？
And what happened then?
这与《今夜秀》有关，当时由杰·雷诺主持。
Well, it has to do with The Tonight Show when it was hosted by Jay Leno.
2003年，阿诺·施瓦辛格竞选加利福尼亚州州长时，找到了杰·雷诺和NBC的《今夜秀》这个非常友好的平台。
In 2003, when Arnold Schwarzenegger was running for governor in California, he found a very friendly platform with Jay Leno and The Tonight Show on NBC.
毫不掩饰地将娱乐带入政治，阿诺·施瓦辛格选择在杰·雷诺的《今夜秀》上宣布他将参选公职。
Unashamedly bringing showbiz to politics, Arnold Schwarzenegger chose The Jay Leno Tonight Show to announce he's running for office.
当施瓦辛格宣布竞选加利福尼亚州州长时，他就是在雷诺的节目中宣布的。
When Schwarzenegger announced that he was running for governor of California, he did it on Leno.
这就是我为什么要竞选这个国家州的州长。
And this is why I'm going to run for governor of the state of the country.
我必须指出，雷诺也曾在施瓦辛格的胜选派对上发言。
Leno, I I have to note, also had spoken at a Schwarzenegger victory party.
我的意思是，莱诺和施瓦辛格之间的关系简直就像一部兄弟电影。
I mean, Leno and Schwarzenegger were, having it was like a buddy movie.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我们正在与加利福尼亚州州长阿利斯·施瓦茨交谈。
We're talking with the governor of California, Arlis Schwartz.
我每次说这个名字还是觉得特别有趣。
I still get a kick out of saying that.
加利福尼亚州州长，因为我和你从20年前就认识了，1977年我们还在花花公子俱乐部。
The governor of California, because we go back '20 you and I were at the Playboy Club in '77.
花花公子俱乐部，花花公子宅邸。
The Playboy Club Playboy Mansion.
你还记得吗？
Remember that?
我当时
I was
施瓦辛格一次又一次地上了莱诺的节目。
And Schwarzenegger was on Leno again and again and again.
我一直在练习模仿你。
I've been working on my impression of you.
天啊，这是我听过的最差的模仿了。
Man, this is the worst impression I've ever heard.
你怎么回事？
What's the matter with you?
我就在想这种事。
I'm think such as that.
你说这太糟糕了。
You say it's so bad.
你看看这有多差？
You see how bad is this?
我说话像那样吗？
Do I talk like that?
你说话就是这样的。
You talk exactly like that.
我要为你恢复汽车税。
I'm gonna reinstate the car tax for you.
现在快进到阿诺德再次参选的时候。
Now fast forward to when Arnold's running again.
他现在要竞选2006年的州长连任。
He's now governor for reelection in 2006.
而民主党人菲尔·安达莱斯开始说，嘿。
And the Democrat, Phil Andalides, starts saying, hey.
这不公平。
This isn't fair.
莱诺给了施瓦辛格一个巨大的平台。
Leno is giving Schwarzenegger this huge platform.
他们是朋友。
They're friends.
所以安吉莉只是说，嘿。
So Angeli just says, hey.
我要平等的播出时间。
I want equal time.
联邦通信委员会必须对此作出裁决，因为NBC并不愿意提供。
And the FCC is gonna have to adjudicate here because NBC is not inclined to give it.
联邦通信委员会审查后说，你知道吗？
And the FCC takes a look and says, you know what?
这是一次真正的新闻访谈。
This is a bonafide news interview.
我们不认为它被用于党派目的，因此我们认为《今夜秀》在此情况下可以豁免。
We do not think it's being used for partisan purposes, so we are going to say that The Tonight Show is exempt here.
这非常针对当时的情况。
That was very specific to that situation.
但所有深夜节目都将其理解为，既然联邦通信委员会说可以，那就意味着没问题了。
But all of late night took that to mean if the FCC said that's okay, then that was sort of taken as, alright.
嗯，这是一个极端情况，也没问题。
Well, that's an an extreme case, and that's fine.
那么我们就这么开始了。
So off we go.
所以，基本上，由于联邦通信委员会认定这一案例仍属于真正的新闻，其他深夜节目便理解为：我们拥有非常宽泛的自由。
So, basically, because the FCC decided that this case still counted as bona fide news, the rest of late night interpreted that to mean, we must have really broad latitude.
我们可以做任何想做的事。
We can do whatever we want.
我们可以请任何人上节目，时长随意，而且不受这些规则约束。
We can have whoever we want on for however long, and we are not subject to these rules.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
我的意思是，联邦通信委员会并没有对此进行 enforcement。
I mean and the FCC did not enforce it.
因此，在这一莱诺裁决之后，加上深夜节目将此视为一种全面豁免，我们又看到了深夜节目领域的另一个重大转变，这一点我们必须特别指出。
So after this Leno ruling and after late night takes this as a sort of blanket exemption, we have another shift in late night that we should really note here.
这是在布什执政时期，深夜节目主持人变得更加政治化。
And that's in the Bush years, the late night hosts start becoming even more political.
格洛丽亚，很高兴见到你。
Gloria, nice to see you.
那么，今晚我们先继续报道美索不达米亚地区的情况。
Well, let's start tonight with our continuing coverage, Mesopotamia.
正如你们所知，我们曾前往伊拉克。
As you know, we went to Iraq.
他们稍微受到约翰·斯图尔特的一些影响。
They're led a little bit by John Stewart.
这场战争中，有多少伊拉克平民丧生？
How many Iraqi citizens have died in this war?
我觉得大约三万人，上下浮动吧。
I would say 30,000, more or less.
真不错，总统先生用估算罐子里果冻豆数量的语调来估算伤亡人数。
Well, it's nice to see the president estimating casualties with the same inflection you used to guess how many jelly beans are in a jar.
他不在F下面。
He's not under the F.
C。
C.
C。
C.
拇指朝同一个方向。
Thumb the same way.
他在喜剧中心频道播他的每日节目。
He's on Comedy Central with his daily show.
对。
Right.
他在有线电视上，不是在无线广播上。
He's on cable, not broadcast.
是的。
Yes.
但同时，斯图尔特取得了巨大的成功，因此他正在影响广播界的同行。
But also, Stewart is having amazing success, so he's influencing the broadcast guys.
好消息。
Good news.
白宫现已发布了一份35页的计划，题为《我们对伊拉克胜利的国家战略》。
The White House has now released a 35 page plan entitled our national strategy for victory in Iraq.
总统布什拒绝为阅读这份计划设定时间表，但他认为它将会
President Bush refuses to set a timetable, for reading it, but he thinks that it will
于是，所有深夜节目都变得更加政治化。
And all of late night starts getting much more political.
现在正是时候。
Times right now.
总统布什正竭尽全力应对这场危机。
President Bush doing his best to respond to the crisis.
我特别喜欢的是，这句话说出来时大家会笑，可这根本不是个笑话。
And I love that that gets giggles when that's not even a joke.
这仅仅是
That's just
而且更加偏向自由派。
And much more sort of liberal leaning.
各位女士们、先生们，今天是唐纳德·特朗普赢得总统大选一周年纪念日。
Occasion, ladies and gentlemen, today was the one year anniversary of Donald Trump winning the presidency.
传统上，一周年纪念礼物是纸张。
Now the traditional one year anniversary gift is paper.
所以如果你想给特朗普送礼物，联邦起诉书绝对是个不错的选择。
So if you wanna get Trump something, you can't go wrong with a federal indictment.
这正是我想要的。
That's what I want.
他们常常把最尖锐的讽刺留给特朗普，尤其是，但也针对所有共和党政治人物。
They're often saving their sharpest barbs for Trump especially, but Republican politicians across the board.
有请副总统约瑟夫·R·拜登重返《深夜秀》。
Please welcome back to The Late Show, vice president Joseph r Biden.
而且
And
这些年来，他们的嘉宾越来越多是民主党人。
over the years, more and more of their guests are Democrats.
比如，你半夜饿了，能穿着内裤跑下楼去厨房吗？
Like, can you run down to the kitchen in your underpants in the middle of the night if you're hungry?
我的意思是，我可以。
I mean, I could.
我不这么做。
I I don't.
你不吗？
You don't?
不。
No.
房间里有个人在
Is there someone in the
这种趋势在特朗普执政期间进一步加剧。
And that continues to harden through the Trump years.
所以，当你看到莱诺和施瓦辛格在深夜节目中的时候，这令人震惊。
So that late night you know, when Leno is there with Schwarzenegger, this is shocking.
多年后的今天，深夜节目已更多地成为政治讨论的平台，并且明显偏向某一派别。
Years later now, late night has become much more a forum for politics and one that does favor one side of the spectrum.
但是F。
But the F.
C。
C.
C，无论是在民主党、共和党执政下，甚至在特朗普第一任期的控制下，F。
C, whether it's under Democratic control, Republican control, even Trump's control in the first term, the F.
C。
C.
C。
C.
任由它大部分自行发生。
Is letting it mostly happen.
他们其实并没有等到去年才在深夜节目上这样做。
They're not really waiting until late night until last year.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我叫贾斯敏·乌洛亚，是《纽约时报》的全国政治记者。
My name is Jasmine Ulloa, and I'm a national politics reporter for The New York Times.
我在德克萨斯州美墨边境长大，从高中起就开始在该地区做报道。
I grew up in Texas on the border with Mexico, and I've been reporting in the region since I was in high school.
现在我走遍全国，寻找能够真实反映移民和国家人口变化对人们意义的故事与声音。
Now I travel the country looking for stories and voices that really capture what immigration and the nation's demographic changes mean for people.
我不断发现，人们在这场极具争议的问题上并不会简单地落入刻板的意识形态框架。
What I keep encountering is that people don't fall into neat ideological boxes on this very volatile issue.
这其中存在大量灰色地带，而我认为最有趣的故事就藏在这里。
There's a lot of gray, and that's where I feel the most interesting stories are.
我努力将这种复杂性和细微差别传达给我们的观众，这正是我所有政治团队的同事以及《纽约时报》每一位记者的目标。
I'm trying to bring that complexity and nuance to our audience, and that's really what all of my colleagues on the politics team and every journalist at The New York Times is aiming to do.
我们的使命是帮助您理解这个世界，无论它有多么复杂。
Our mission is to help you understand the world no matter how complicated it might be.
如果您希望支持这一使命，不妨考虑订阅《纽约时报》。
If you want to support this mission, consider subscribing to The New York Times.
您可以通过 nytimes.com/subscribe 进行订阅。
You can do that at nytimes.com/subscribe.
好的。
Okay.
所以，吉姆，你提到的关于莱诺的那项联邦通信委员会的决定，长期以来成为指导深夜节目的主流共识，尽管深夜节目正变得越来越党派化。
So, Jim, that decision that you described about Leno from the FCC, that basically became the prevailing wisdom that guided late night for years, even though late night was becoming more and more partisan.
那么，请告诉我们，联邦政府对这项旧规定的执法是如何重新开始的？
So tell us about how the enforcement by the federal government of the old rule starts to pick back up.
也就是说，这件事是什么时候、如何达到高潮的？
Like, when and how did that come to a head?
这是因为一位来自威斯康星州、鲜为人知的律师名叫丹尼尔·西尔。
Well, it comes to a head because of this little known lawyer from Wisconsin named Daniel Sir.
我喜欢你这种老派风格。
I love your your old schoolness.
对吧？
Right?
我们根本不害怕打电话。
Like, we're not scared of the phone.
我们会派真正的记者去。
Like, we're gonna have an actual reporter.
早上好。
Morning.
是的。
Yeah.
太好了。
That's great.
我花了大量时间和他交谈，包括去密尔沃基拜访他。
And I got to spend a lot of time talking with him, including a visit in Milwaukee.
他经历了一段漫长的旅程，最终成为了如今深夜电视节目的主要反对者之一。
And it's kind of a long journey he goes on to become, really, one of the chief antagonists of late night TV right now.
我最初是一名自由市场保守派。
I started out as a free market conservative.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
而且
And
所以丹尼尔·舒尔本质上是一位崛起中的保守派律师。
So Daniel Suhr is basically a rising star conservative lawyer.
他多年来一直致力于一些经典的保守派事业。
He had worked for years on, you know, real classic conservative causes.
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几年前，他和一位同事共同创立了一家名为美国权利中心的非营利性律师事务所。
And a couple years ago, with a colleague of his, he founded a nonprofit law firm called The Center for American Rights.
他们所做的工作，据我所见，他职业生涯中从未涉及过电视、广播法规或联邦通信委员会相关事务。
They are not doing anything, and never in his career, from what I could see, had he done anything relating to television, broadcast rules, the F.
F。
C.
真的。
Really
从辩论开始的。
started with the debate.
ABC辩论。
ABC debate.
是的。
Yeah.
ABC辩论。
The ABC debate.
那是你的第一个。
That was your first one.
但据他所说，2024年他观看了唐纳德·J·特朗普和卡玛拉·哈里斯之间那场唯一的一场辩论后，他的情况发生了变化。
But as he tells it, things change for him in the 2024 when he watches that first and only debate between Donald j Trump and Kamala Harris.
事实核查看起来明显偏颇。
The fact checking seems so egregiously one-sided.
特朗普说，俄亥俄州斯普林菲尔德的人们在吃猫、吃狗。
Trump is saying things like they're eating the cats and they're eating the dogs in Springfield, Ohio.
嗯。
Mhmm.
主持人打断他进行事实核查。
The moderators are cutting in to fact check him.
他们没有核查卡玛拉·哈里斯。
They're not fact checking Kamala Harris.
特朗普非常愤怒。
Trump is furious.
辩论结束后，他说，应该吊销ABC的执照。
After the debate, he says, they ought to take ABC's license away.
因为我想提醒大家一件事：在特朗普的第一个任期内，你经常听到他说的是吊销他们的执照。
Because one thing I wanna remind people is, in Trump's first term, what you did hear him say a lot of time was pull their license.
吊销他们的执照。
Pull their license.
先生，他听着特朗普的话，一直在思考这个问题。
And, sir, he's hearing Trump, and he's been thinking about this.
这到底是什么意思？
What what does that mean?
你怎么去吊销一个执照？
How do you pull a license?
就像律师们做的那样。
It's do what lawyers do.
我们去研究一下，你知道的。
We research it, you know.
我们阅读法律。
We read the law.
我们深入研究。
We get into it.
他了解了你我刚才谈到的这段历史。
And he learns about the history that you and I just spoke about.
联邦通信委员会一直表示
The Federal Communications Commission has always said
它审视法律，而所有这些法律都基于这一理念——公共利益、便利和必要性。
It looks at the law, and all these laws are based on this idea and the law, the public interest, convenience, and necessity.
我的天，考虑到这是公共频谱，居然本质上成了民主党的未申报、无监管的竞选捐款，我简直不敢相信。
Like, I just I can't believe, given that they're public airwaves, that, you know, it's essentially a unreported, unregulated campaign contribution of the Democratic Party.
这怎么可能是合法的？
It's like, how is that legal?
他所说的是：看，我甚至没意识到这些公共利益规则的范围如此之广。
What he said was, look, I didn't even realize the extent of these public interest rules.
对他来说，这些网络竟然被允许如此行事，这令人震惊。
And so to him, it's shocking that these networks are allowed to behave this way.
看起来就像一场巨大的、一边倒的颂扬盛会。
Seem to be this, you know, massive one-sided love fest.
他一直认为它们存在偏见。
He's always thought that they're biased.
媒体也拥有自己的权力，这种权力需要受到问责。
The media also holds its own kind of power that needs to be held accountable.
这是其中一部分，而且
That's part And
他认为，如果你觉得某个电台违反了规定，就可以提出质疑。
he sees that you can make challenges to certain stations if you think they're in violation.
他向费城的一家ABC电视台提交了投诉。
And he files a complaint against an ABC station in Philadelphia.
巧合的是，辩论正是在那里举行的。
It happens to be where the debate happened.
他本可以在任何电视台提交投诉，但他偏偏选了这家。
He could have filed it at any station, but that's where he does it.
当特朗普对CBS在《60分钟》节目中对哈里斯的采访大肆咆哮，声称该采访经过剪辑以让她显得更好时，他继续发声。
And he goes on when Trump is screaming bloody murder about a CBS interview with Kamala Harris on sixty Minutes that Trump is alleging was edited to make her look better.
SIR找到了一种方式，就F.向相关部门提交投诉。
SIR finds a way to file a complaint against the F.
C.
C.
C.
C.
就此事。
On that.
他提出了一个名为“新闻扭曲”的概念。
He finds a term called news distortion.
他基于这一理由提交了投诉。
He brings a complaint on that basis.
但在这两种情况下，核心观点是这些网络媒体过于党派化，未能服务公众利益，它们所呈现的内容并非真正的新闻。
But the idea in both of these cases is that these networks are so partisan that they are not serving the public interest and that what they are presenting is not bona fide news.
这些都是旨在影响观众的党派内容。
It's partisan content meant to sway the audience.
所以，这位名叫丹尼尔·苏尔的律师，通过这些投诉实际上是在回溯过去，声称联邦通信委员会原本希望确保节目内容不带偏见。
So what Daniel Suhr, this lawyer, is doing with these complaints is he's basically going back in time, and he's saying the FCC wanted to make programming not biased.
对吧？
Right?
但后来他们为新闻节目设立了例外，说：‘你知道吗？’
But the carve outs that they subsequently made for news where they said that, you know what?
如果你是新闻节目，我们信任你们的新闻判断。
If you're a news program, we trust your journalistic judgment.
去吧。
Go forth.
他基本上是在说，这一例外在当今世界已不再适用。
He's basically saying that does not apply in today's world.
这些新闻节目更需要一个裁判。
These news programs, they need more of a referee.
因此，这些投诉基本上是在说，我们需要更仔细地审视这些网络，看看它们是否真的违反了相关规定。
And so these complaints are basically saying, we need to take a much closer look at these networks to see if they're actually running afoul of the regulations.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
但真正引起我注意的原因是，我多年来一直研究这些规则的由来。
But the reason it really caught my eye is I've studied these rules, how they came about for years and years.
当我与保守派人士讨论媒体时，他们总是说这些规则是荒谬的。
And my conservative sources, when I talk to them about media, have always said these rules are an abomination.
它们违背了我们保守派所信奉的一切。
They violate everything we believe in as conservatives.
我们不希望政府干预内容，因此我们根本不会认真对待这样的规则。
We don't want the government messing in content, and so we shall not really take rules like this seriously.
丹尼尔·苏尔代表了特朗普时代出现的这种新派保守主义，嗯。
And Daniel Suhr represents this new strain Mhmm.
他们说：不。
Of conservative in the Trump era that's saying, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我们走得太远了。
We went too far.
现在，我会让人们对那个曾经强烈感受到这一点、如今却说并非如此的保守派运动自行得出结论。
Now, you know, I'll let people draw their own conclusions about the conservative movement that felt this so loudly and now is saying that it doesn't.
但他所表达的是，作为保守派，我们相信市场，但有时市场并不能解决所有问题。
But what he is saying is that we as conservatives believe in the market, but sometimes the market doesn't solve all problems.
而在这个案例中，偏见已经太过严重，市场无法自行解决。
And in this case, it's gotten so biased, and the market's not solving it.
那么，我们为什么会允许这种情况发生？
And so why have we allowed this to happen?
我将提交这些投诉。
I'm gonna file these complaints.
在拜登政府离任前，联邦通信委员会主席杰西卡·罗森沃塞尔要求联邦通信委员会的执法部门审查这些投诉。
And before the Biden administration leaves office, the FCC chair, Jessica Rosenworcel, asked her enforcement division at the FCC to take a look at these complaints.
他们发现这些投诉毫无分量。
And they found that they carried no weight.
它们没有任何法律依据。
That there was no legal merit to them.
因此，他们驳回了这些投诉。
So they rejected those.
此外，他们还驳回了一个自由派团体针对费城福克斯电视台的投诉，该投诉涉及2020年福克斯新闻关于选举被盗的报道。
And for good measure, they also threw out a complaint lodged by a liberal group against a Fox station in Philadelphia relating to stolen election coverage on Fox News back from 2020.
所以，所有这些都被作废了。
So they're all invalidated.
那么，丹尼尔·苏尔的所有投诉都被驳回，这对他有多大威慑作用？
So how much of a deterrent is that to Daniel Suhr to get all of his complaints thrown out?
这根本起不到威慑作用，因为即将上任的联邦通信委员会主席布伦丹·卡尔回公开支持SIR的投诉，并认真对待它们。
Well, it's not a deterrent at all because Brendan Carr, the incoming FCC chair, was publicly kind of validating SIR's complaints and taking them very seriously.
能快速提醒一下我们，布伦丹·卡爾是谁？他持有什么观点？
And remind us quickly who is Brendan Carr, and what does he believe?
我们现在在媒体领域做的事情，和特朗普45任时有所不同。
We are doing some some different stuff in the media space now as compared to Trump 45.
再说一遍，布伦丹·卡爾是联邦通信委员会的资深委员，之前曾担任过工作人员律师，深谙通信法，至少在这一届任期中，他明显是特朗普那一派的人。
Again So Brendan Carr is a longtime FCC commissioner, had been a staff level lawyer before that, so very rooted in communications law, but very much Trump's kinda guy coming at least coming in to this second term.
这些公共利益规则以前似乎并不是你的关注重点。
It doesn't seem to have been a focus, these public interest rules, for you previously.
对吧？
Right?
而且在第一任期时，这对你来说似乎还是个新问题。
And and in first, like, it seems like a newer issue for you.
这是否部分是因为丹尼尔·苏尔在ABC之后出现，说嘿。
Is that partly a Daniel Suhr showing up after ABC and saying, hey.
等一下。
Wait a minute.
我认为丹尼尔·苏尔一直非常非常
Well, I think Daniel Suhr has been very been very
在指出问题本身之外，还提供了很大帮助，
helpful in in in pointing out not just, you know, the issue, but
他后来告诉我，丹尼尔·苏尔为他指明了方向。
And he will later tell me that Daniel Suhr really lights the way for him.
你觉得丹尼尔·苏尔一直在做着出色的工作，
Think that, you know, Daniel Suhr has been doing tremendous work,
进行着
doing a
做了大量研究，将他的立场建立在历史性的联邦通信委员会判例法基础上。
lot of the research, bringing you know, grounding his positions in, you know, historic FCC case law.
很令人印象深刻，我觉得。
Impressive, I think.
这充分体现了特朗普在第二任期希望看到的媒体如何对他采取不同的态度。
And it so speaks to what Trump wants to see in a second term in terms of a a media that's gonna behave differently toward him.
好的。
Alright.
聊得真好，吉姆。
Good talk, Jim.
非常感谢你。
Thank thanks so much.
感谢你的分享。
Appreciate it.
卡尓在就任主席后做的第一件事之一，就是重新受理所有这些投诉，但不包括福克斯的投诉。
And one of the first things that Carr does when he takes a chairmanship over after the inauguration is he reinstates all of those complaints, not the Fox complaint.
好的。
Okay.
所以你所谈论的一切都是新闻，新闻，新闻。
So everything you're talking about is news, news, news.
对吧？
Right?
那么，丹尼尔是如何从新闻生态系统中将这一点带入深夜节目的呢？
So how does Daniel take this from the news ecosystem and bring it into late night?
有趣的是，现在丹尼尔·舒尔得到了顺风助力。
Well, interestingly, now Daniel Suhr has the wind at his back.
对吧？
Right?
他得到了联邦通信委员会主席的重视。
He's got the ear of the FCC chair.
他在这件事上如鱼得水。
He's cooking with gas on this issue.
他开始环顾四周，发现了一个比广播电视新闻更大的机会。
And he starts to look around, and he notices that there's an even bigger opportunity than broadcast news.
那就是他转向《深夜秀》的时候。
And that's when he comes to Late Night.
我会说，深夜秀是将名人文化影响力赋予民主党的地方。
I would say Late Night is where the cultural power of celebrity is lent to the Democratic Party.
这些深夜节目主持人是如何让他们的节目如此偏向民主党的？
How are these late night hosts able to so tilt their programming toward the Democrats?
看看晚间新闻。
Watch the evening news.
是的。
Yeah.
晚间新闻可能带有某种倾向，让你以某种方式看待世界，但这和你最喜欢的演员、影响者和喜剧人不断赞美同一批政治人物是不同的。
It may have a slant that makes you think about the world a certain way, but that's different from seeing your favorite actors and your favorite influencers and your favorite comedians constantly showering praise on those same politicians.
他给卡尔回了一封信，引用了一些研究，表明深夜节目中的自由派人士更多。
And he writes a letter to Carr, citing some studies showing that late night is, like, they have more liberals on.
在九月初，他实际上向吉米·坎摩尔提交了一份投诉。
And in early September, he actually files a complaint against Jimmy Kimmel.
这是针对L的。
And that's against the L.
A。
A.
ABC电视台。
Station, ABC station.
他说，基本上是一个意思。
He says, you know, basically same idea.
基梅尔让他的节目偏向一方，你知道，这是不可接受的。
Kimmel is tilting his show toward one side, and, you know, this is unacceptable.
几天后，一名刺客枪杀了查理·柯克。
And Rachel, literally days later, an assassin shoots and kills Charlie Kirk.
而吉米·基梅尔，正如你所记得的，发表了这段极具争议的开场白。
And Jimmy Kimmel, as you remember, does this very controversial monologue.
对。
Right.
谢谢
Thank
感谢您加入我们的节目
you for joining us after
他暗示休斯顿的枪手可能是MAGA粉丝。
Where he implies from Houston that the shooter could be a MAGA fan.
而MAGA阵营正拼命试图将杀害查理·柯克的这个孩子描绘成与他们无关的人，并竭尽全力这么做。
And with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can.
这真是新低。
And This is a new low.
夜晚
Night
人们，尤其是在特朗普阵营中，对此反应激烈。
People, especially in Trump world, go crazy over that.
他要么是在恶搞，要么就是愚蠢。
He's either trolling or just stupid.
我不确定是哪一个。
I'm not sure which.
也许是两者都有。
Maybe both.
我选愚蠢这个说法。
Oh, I'm going with stupid on this one.
那位自由派喜剧演员试图将这起谋杀归咎于一个特朗普支持者，但他并没有暗示，他是直接这么说的。
The liberal comedian trying to pin this murder on a Trump person He didn't imply it.
他明说了。
He said it.
关于我们的一位伟大英雄。
Of one of our great heroes
我听过的最无耻的。
One of the most ass
事情之一。
land things I ever heard.
简直就是阴谋论的世界，字面意思。
Conspiracy land, literally.
而且你知道，结果发现那个人根本就不是那样的人。
And, you know, it ends up that the person is not anything at all like that.
最起码是疏忽，竟然还不知道
It's negligence at best to not already know
如果你是吉米·基梅尔，但显然他根本不关心。
that if you're Jimmy Kimmel, but clearly, doesn't care.
所以卡尓
And so Carr
当你审视吉米·基梅尔所采取的举动时。
When you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel.
在这场风暴中，有人在播客上挺身而出说：你知道吗？
In this maelstrom steps up to say on a podcast, you know what?
有人在刻意努力欺骗美国民众。
There's a very concerted effort to try to lie to the American people.
这可能违反了公共利益。
This could be violative of the public interest.
这些公司可以找到方法改变行为，对基梅尔采取行动，或者，你知道的，联邦机构将面临更多工作。
These companies can find ways to change conduct and take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or, you know, there's gonna be additional work for the F.
C。
C.
C。
C.
前进。
Ahead.
ABC公司现在已正式收到通知。
ABC's hereby basically on notice.
我的意思是，你看。
I mean, look.
我们可以轻松地做这件事
We can do this the easy
方式或者艰难的方式。
way or the hard way.
我可以轻松地做这件事，也可以艰难地做。
I can do this the easy way or the hard way.
还有，对。
And Right.
那里隐含的威胁是，ABC电视台的执照可能会出问题，而ABC确实暂停了基梅尔的节目数日。
The implicit threat there is that ABC station licenses can be in trouble, and ABC does suspend Kimmel's programming for several days.
这就像第一次真正让人大吃一惊，哇，联邦通信委员会现在真的开始针对深夜节目了。
This is, like, the first real shock to the system that, wow, the FCC is now really coming for late night.
所以，这就是开端。
So that's the beginning of it.
但对于西尔和卡尓来说，深夜节目已经进入他们的视野，这也最终将我们带到了一月，那时在卡尓领导下的联邦通信委员会正式制度化了他们对深夜节目的打压。
But for SIR and Carr, late night is on the radar, which finally brings us up to January when the FCC under Carr really institutionalizes their push against late night.
你知道，基梅尔事件更像是一次临时性的行动。
You know, the Kimmel instance was a bit more ad hoc.
对吧？
Right?
那是在当时发生的。
That happened in the moment.
但现在他们发布了正式公告，说明了新政策。
But now they put out this formal announcement that says, here's the new policy.
我们将更常规地将旧的平等时间标准应用于深夜脱口秀。
We are gonna apply this old standard of equal time to the late night talk shows more regularly.
你们要注意了。
You're on notice.
顺便说一下，那个莱诺的豁免是2006年针对他的。
By the way, that Leno exemption, that was for Leno in 2006.
我们不认为它适用于其他任何情况。
We do not see it as applying to anything else.
你们一直都在钻空子，现在新官上任，一切都结束了。
You've all been getting away with something, and there's a new sheriff in town, and it's over.
所以，基本上，这位来自威斯康星州、名叫丹尼尔·西尔的律师，之前完全没有媒体法方面的经验，正是他让布伦丹·卡尓注意到了平等时间规则。
So, basically, this lawyer from Wisconsin, Daniel Sir, who had no previous experience in media law, he's the one who essentially put the equal time rule on Brendan Carr's radar.
对吧？
Right?
而这正是让我们走到今天这一步的原因——我们现在看到的联邦通信委员会针对深夜节目的行动，最终导致了科尔伯特的访谈被下架。
And that is what has gotten us to this moment, this campaign that we are now seeing from the FCC against late night, and ultimately, this Colbert interview getting taken off the air.
确实如此。
Very much so.
而且很明显，这场行动仍在继续。
And what's also clear is that this campaign is ongoing.
在过去的几周里，已宣布联邦通信委员会正在调查《观点》节目是否存在偏见和平等时间违规行为。
Now it's been announced in the last several weeks that, in fact, the FCC is investigating The View for bias and equal time violations.
《观点》节目
And the View
不是深夜节目。
not late night.
不是深夜节目，但那是一个谈话节目。
Not late night, but it's a talk show.
而且无论如何，《观点》仍然是全国范围内广受欢迎的电视节目，深入探讨政治话题，其观众群体是每天准时收看的可靠选民。
And it's if anything, The View is a very powerful television show still seen across the country, delves into politics with pretty reliable voters who watch it every day.
卡雷具体打算如何针对这些节目下手？
How exactly is Carr proposing going after these shows?
我的意思是，不仅操作机制是什么，他能单方面取消这里的豁免吗？
Like, not only what are the mechanics of that, but can he just unilaterally undo the exemption here?
关于豁免问题，他主张的并不是在撤销什么，而是这个豁免原本只适用于莱诺，根本不适用于这些节目。
I mean, on the exemption, what he's arguing is that he's not undoing anything, that that exemption was for Leno, and it doesn't apply.
这里有一件非常重要的事情我们必须提到，那就是在法律层面，我至今还没找到一位律师说‘是的’。
Now there's something very important that we have to mention here, and that is that legally, I've yet to find a lawyer who has said, yes.
FCC在布伦丹·卡雷所谈论的这些案例中，拥有充分的法律依据来吊销执照。
The FCC has a very strong case to take away licenses in x y z case that Brendan Carr is talking about.
但就是没人相信这一点。
It's just nobody thinks that.
是的
Mhmm.
网络本身也不这么认为，但这种威胁本身非常强大。
The networks themselves don't think that, but the threat itself is very powerful.
当联邦政府愿意以惩罚相威胁时，任何大型媒体公司都不愿站在联邦政府的对立面。
It's not in any major media company's interest to be on the wrong side of the federal government when the federal government's willing to dangle punishment.
所以，你知道，即使网络公司在法庭上能赢，你真的愿意和联邦政府打上几个月甚至更久的官司吗？
So, you know, even if the networks would win in court, do you want to be in court for months or longer with the federal government?
没人想这样。
Nobody wants it.
我想暂时代表丹尼尔·斯特尔的论点，也可能包括布伦丹·卡雷的观点，即电视应该少一些偏见。
I wanna embody Daniel Stur's argument for a moment and perhaps Brendan Carr's perspective as well that television should be less biased.
我们应该把党派偏见从我们的节目中清除出去。
We should get this partisanship out of our programming.
这回到了这些法律最初制定时的精神。
That goes back to the spirit of when these laws were first created.
所以我能理解为什么人们会觉得深夜电视长期以来一直游走在规则边缘，而如今这正是对这些规则最初积极精神的一种回归。
So I can imagine why people would feel like late night television has gotten away with something for very, very long, and this is a correction back to the initial positive spirit with which these rules were intended.
这正是卡尓主席所表达的观点。
Well, that is what chairman Carr's saying.
他亲自告诉我，而且他一再在其他场合表示，我所做的只是在执行法律。
He told me that personally, but he said it elsewhere time and time again, that all I'm doing is enforcing the law.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我听了很多专家的意见，甚至一些自由派政策专家也认为，联邦通信委员会在平等时间规则方面立场稳固，认为深夜电视已经偏离太远。
And I've heard from a lot of experts here, even liberal policy experts who actually think the FCC's on solid ground here in terms of the equal time rule, that late night has strayed too far.
但就连他们也质疑：卡尓是否公平地执行了这些规则？
But even they questioned, is Carr evenly applying the rules?
你是否也应该将这些规则应用于谈话电台？
Could you should you be applying this then to talk radio?
你完全可以论证，如果谈话电台在特定选举窗口期邀请嘉宾，也可能属于平等时间规则的适用范围。
You could make an argument that talk radio could fall under this sequel time rule if they have guests on within certain election windows.
肖恩·汉尼提晚上在福克斯新闻播出，但他拥有全美最受欢迎的广播节目之一，听众达数百万。
Sean Hannity is on Fox News at night, but he's got one of the biggest talk shows in radio, millions of listeners.
如果他在选举期间邀请政治嘉宾，他会不会惹上麻烦？
Should he get into trouble if he has a political guest on around an election?
没错。
Right.
我的意思是，广播不仅是许多这类规定的起源，而且广播的影响力巨大。
I mean, radio is not only the thing that started many of these regulations, but radio is huge.
是的。
Yeah.
谈话类广播节目每周都有数以百万计的听众。
Talk radio is on a weekly basis millions and millions of people.
数百万。
Millions.
我的意思是，如果你把每天所有保守派广播节目的听众总数加起来，那规模远超电视上的大多数节目。
I mean, if you took the collective audience for talk radio every day across all the conservative shows, I mean, you dwarf a lot of what's on television in general.
而且现在甚至有人提出一个论点，从技术上讲，如果你真的严格遵守法律条文，那么在这一特定的平等时间规则下，有线电视甚至可能也适用这一规定，嗯。
And there's even an argument that's getting made out there that in very technical terms, if you're gonna really follow the letter of the law, that when it comes to this very specific equal time rule, that cable could even fall under its terms Mhmm.
而这无疑会为福克斯新闻等网络带来一系列麻烦。
Which, of course, would really open up a whole can of worms with networks like Fox News.
因此，如果你字面化地理解这项法律，它的适用范围可能会非常广泛。
So the application of the law could really go far if you're taking it that literally.
但我认为这里还有一个更大的博弈，丹尼尔·舒尔会告诉你，这里有一个更大的博弈。
But I think that there's a bigger play here, and Daniel Sir would tell you there's a bigger play here.
我的一个希望是，我们能为家庭友好、信仰启发、爱国内容扫清道路。
One of my hopes is that we clear the way for family friendly, faith inspired, patriotic content.
丹尼尔·舒尔的期望，当然还有布伦南·卡尓的期望，是他们将永久性地改变电视网络的格局。
And the hope that Daniel Suhr has, certainly that Brendan Carr has, is that they were going to forever now change the network dynamic.
平衡并不仅仅意味着把所有这些自由派内容从屏幕上清除掉。
It's not just that balance means getting all this liberal stuff off the air.
对吧？
Right?
它说的是，红州的消费者也值得从他们的广播中获得他们想要的内容。
It's saying that that red state consumers deserve content they want too from their broadcast.
对吧？
Right?
我的希望是，随着我们看到媒体格局的变化，能有更多这样的内容。
And my hope is that as we, you know, see shifts in the media landscape, we get more of that.
对吧？
Right?
而且，其中一部分是
And and and part of what
这很有趣，因为他是在说联邦通信委员会。
This is interesting because he's arguing that the F.
委
C.
员
C.
不仅仅是监督某种平衡行为，而是可能利用其权力推动针对特定受众、特定品味的节目内容，这听起来像是一个具有行动主义倾向的联邦通信委员会。
Is not just gonna oversee some kind of great balancing act here, but that it actually might use its power to promote a certain kind of programming for a certain kind of audience with a certain kind of taste, which sounds like an activist FCC.
对吧？
Right?
我可以想象，有些人听到这个可能会想，如果反对党掌权了会怎样？
And I can imagine that some people might hear that and think, well, what happens if the other side of the aisle is in power?
这是那些仍将联邦通信委员会及其权力视为与自身意识形态水火不容的保守派发出的警告。
That's the warning from those conservatives that still view the FCC and its power here as as anathema to to their ideology.
因此，参议员泰德·克鲁兹警告说，如果现在我们这样做了，民主党将来也会对我们的支持者这么做。
So senator Ted Cruz has warned that if this happens now under us, the Democrats are gonna do it to our people.
本·夏皮罗也说过类似的话。
Ben Shapiro has said that.
乔·罗根也发出过类似的警告，说如果现在我们这么做，另一方将来也会对我们的群体这么做。
Joe Rogan has made us issued a similar warning that if this happens here, the other side's gonna do it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此，一些右翼人士认为，这打开了一个最好保持封闭的潘多拉魔盒。
So there's a presumption among some on the right that this is opening up a Pandora's box that's best left closed.
但显然，政府并不信服这一论点。
But clearly, the administration is not persuaded by that argument.
对吧？
Right?
因为正如我们在本集开头所说，布伦丹·卡爾本周末基本上进一步强化了这一策略，即针对他不喜欢的报道，并试图直接影响有关战争的报道。
Because as we said at the top of this episode, Brendan Carr over the weekend is basically doubling down on this strategy of going after coverage that he does not like and trying to influence coverage specifically of the war.
对于这一策略未来可能发展的各种方式，我们能说些什么呢？
What can we say about the various ways this could play out going forward?
蕾切尔，我想首先指出，本周末卡爾关于伊朗的言论引发了更多共和党的反弹，尤其是来自威斯康星州的共和党参议员罗恩·约翰逊。
Rachel, I wanna know, first of all, that there was more Republican blowback this weekend with Carr's Iran related message, notably the Republican senator from Wisconsin, Ron Johnson.
此外，政策专家、卡爾本人和记者们在社交媒体上就他究竟能做什么展开了大量争论。
There was also a lot of back and forth on social media between policy experts and Carr himself and journalists as to what he could really do here.
但话说回来，这种对电视网络施加的巨大压力，伴随着真实的政府惩罚威胁，确实非同寻常。
But that said, this is an amazing amount of pressure on the networks to toe the line during war with real threats of governmental punishment.
让我们记住，除了伊朗问题，今年秋天还将迎来国会中期选举。
And let's remember, aside from Iran, we also have the congressional midterms coming up this fall.
如果这些选举像2020年那样，因这些薄弱的舞弊指控而产生争议，会发生什么？
What happens if some of those elections are disputed over these flimsy allegations of fraud we saw in 2020?
这种情况该如何处理？
How's that gonna be handled?
还有，F.
And is the F.
C.
C.
C.
C.
会介入其中吗？
Gonna weigh in there?
然后我们再回到深夜脱口秀节目。
And then let's bring it back to the late night shows.
政府已明确表示，他们认为这些属于政治领域的一部分。
The administration has made it clear that they see those as part of the political arena.
这些深夜节目会彻底不再邀请政治人物吗？
Are these late night shows gonna stop booking politicians altogether?
简而言之，你知道的，我们等着看吧。
The short of it is, you know, we'll wait and we'll see.
但在我们这一代人的生活中，我们从未见过联邦政府如此深度地介入广播电视的内容决策和内容监管。
But in our lifetimes, we have never seen the federal government get involved this much in content decisions and policing content decisions on broadcast television.
吉姆·鲁滕伯格，一如既往，谢谢你。
Jim Rutenberg, thank you as always.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Thanks so much for having me.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
以下是今天你需要了解的其他内容。
Here's what else you need to know today.
以色列表示，周二对其伊朗领导层高层造成了双重打击，击毙了伊朗最高国家安全委员会主席阿里·拉里贾尼，以及与伊斯兰革命卫队结盟的强大民兵组织负责人古勒姆·雷扎·苏莱曼尼准将。
Israel said it had dealt double blows to the upper echelons of Iran's leadership on Tuesday, killing Ali Larejani, the head of the country's Supreme National Security Council, and brigadier general Golem Reza Soleimani, the head of a powerful militia aligned with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.
这些杀戮事件公布数小时后，特朗普总统再次抨击了那些拒绝参与伊朗战争的北约盟友。
The killings were announced hours before president Trump lashed out again against NATO allies who have rebuffed his attempts to draw them into the war in Iran.
他在椭圆形办公室表示，美国‘不需要也不希望’任何帮助来打开霍尔木兹海峡，并称他对北约感到‘失望’。
Speaking in the Oval Office, he said The United States did not, quote, need or desire any help to open the Strait Of Hormuz and added that he was, quote, disappointed in NATO.
周二，美国最高反恐官员之一辞职，理由是他反对伊朗战争，并称以色列影响了特朗普政府的政策。
And one of The United States' top counterterrorism officials resigned on Tuesday, citing his opposition to the war in Iran and what he said was Israel's influence over the Trump administration's policies.
这位官员乔·肯特是首位因这场战争而辞职的政府高级官员。
The official, Joe Kent, is the first senior member of the administration to quit over the war.
肯特先生在致特朗普先生的信中写道：‘我无法在良知上支持 ongoing 的伊朗战争。’
Quote, I cannot in good conscience support the ongoing war in Iran, mister Kent wrote in a letter to mister Trump.
‘伊朗并未对我国构成迫在眉睫的威胁，显然我们是由于以色列及其强大的美国游说团体施压而发动了这场战争。’
Quote, Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation, and it is clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel and its powerful American lobby.
本期节目由亚历克斯·斯特恩、里基·诺韦茨基、玛丽·威尔逊和戴安娜·温制作。
Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern, Ricky Nowetsky, Mary Wilson, and Diana Wynn.
本集由罗布·齐普科编辑，迈克尔·贝努瓦协助。
It was edited by Rob Zipko with help from Michael Benoit.
内容由苏珊·李核对，并包含帕特·麦卡斯克、玛丽昂·洛萨诺、丹·鲍威尔、罗文·内米斯托和阿莉西亚·贝伊图布的音乐。
Fact checked by Susan Lee and contains music by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Rowan Nemisto, and Alicia Baitub.
我们的主题音乐由Wonderly创作。
Our theme music is by Wonderly.
本集由克里斯·伍德负责制作。
This episode was engineered by Chris Wood.
以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。
That's it for The Daily.
我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯。
I'm Rachel Abrams.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
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