奥兹匹克时代的婚姻与性

迪帕克·乔普拉关于我们如何不仅活得更久、而且更幸福有什么见解？西西里岛的一位阿姨和她的侄女又能互相传授哪些关于自我照顾和美好生活的经验。大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·鲁索里尼。在欧莱雅集团最新一期的《这不是美容》播客中，我们深入探讨了美丽、长寿与健康之间的关系。

What does Deepak Chopra say about how we can live not just longer, but happier? And what can an aunt and her niece in Sicily teach one another about self care and a life well lived. Hi. I'm Isabella Russolini. And in the latest episode of This Is Not a Beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group, we dig into the relationship between beauty, longevity, and health.

立即在您喜爱的播客平台上收听。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

我是《纽约时报》的瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，这里是《每日播报》。过去几年里，像Ozempic和Zepbound这样的GLP-1药物正在彻底改变数百万美国人的生活。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. In the last few years, GLP one drugs like Ozempic and Zepbound have been radically reshaping the lives of millions of Americans.

它们有能力

They have the power to

从我们的食欲、健康到购买的衣物，改变一切。但它们也影响着我们生活的其他方面——约会方式、自我认知，甚至最亲密的关系。今天，我的同事丽莎·米勒将讲述这些药物如何颠覆一对夫妇的婚姻，以及他们如何应对余波。今天是10月7日，星期二。丽莎，我认为毫不夸张地说，2025年的我们正身处美国这场减肥革命的浪潮之中。

change everything from our appetites and our health to the clothes that we buy. But they also have the power to affect other parts of our lives, how we date, how we see ourselves, even our closest relationships. Today, my colleague Lisa Miller tells the story of how these drugs upended one couple's marriage, and how they dealt with the fallout. It's Tuesday, October 7. Lisa, I don't think it's an understatement to say that we, in 2025, are in the middle of this what feels like kind of a weight loss revolution in The United States.

当然，我们谈论的是这些可能人尽皆知的药物——Ozempic、Wegovy、Mounjaro。我想大多数人都认识因它们而改变的人，或许很多人自己就有相关体验。但我很想听听最初是什么引起了你的兴趣。

And, of course, we're talking about these drugs that everybody's probably heard of, Ozempic, Wegovy, Mounjaro. I think most people know somebody who's been transformed by them. Maybe a lot of people themselves have actually had some experience with them. But I would just like to hear a little bit about what interested you initially.

是的。这是对我们外貌认知的革命，也是健康的革命。它拥有巨大潜力，能帮助那些曾经无法获得帮助的人群。

Yeah. It's a revolution in how we look. It's a revolution in our health. It's got a gigantic potential to help people who have not been able to be helped before.

嗯。

Mhmm.

数据显示，每八个美国人中就有一个嗯。尝试过这类药物。这意味着数百万人的规模，对吧？因此这引发了各种讨论，不仅关乎我们的感受和健康，还涉及我们的外貌及其在社会中的重要性。

And the data show that one in eight Americans Mhmm. Has tried one of these drugs. So that's a lot of millions of people. Right? And so it's creating all kinds of conversations, not just about how we feel and our health, but also how we look and how that matters in the world.

比如，我有个服用这种药物的朋友说，如果你现在能只吃五根薯条嗯。而过去你无法只吃五根，必须吃完一整盘，这会让你意识到自己可以掌控生活中曾认为无法控制的事情。所以如果你曾面对一盘薯条完全无能为力，突然却获得了控制力——

Like, I have a friend who takes the medicine, and he says, you know, if you are able to eat just five french fries Mhmm. And you used to not be able to eat just five french fries and had to eat the whole plate of french fries, it gives you grounding in the idea that you can control things in your life that you didn't think you could control. So if you're a person who was completely helpless in the face of a plate of french fries and suddenly you get control

那么，你还能控制什么？

of that, what else can you control?

你能控制自己的冲动消费吗？能改变与子女相处的方式、与老板沟通的态度吗？我的问题是，如果你的身体——这个行走的躯壳——发生巨变，你对自身可能性的认知也彻底改变，这是否会影响你与生活中一切人事的关系，包括最亲密的伴侣？真正吸引我的是这个问题：GLP-1类药物如何影响婚姻，尤其当伴侣中一方用药而另一方未用时。

Can you control your Jimmy going habits? Can you control the way you relate to your children, the way you talk to your boss? So my question was, like, if your body has changed so much, just the shell you walk around in, and your mindset has changed so much about what's possible for you, wouldn't that affect the way you relate to everything and everyone in your life, including your most intimate relationships. And what really interested me was this question of how the GLP one drugs affected a marriage, especially when one partner is on the drugs and the other partner isn't.

你是如何寻找合适访谈对象来解答这个问题的？

How did you go about trying to find the right people to talk to to to satisfy that question?

没错。我们《纽约时报》有个'公众征询'栏目，通过社交媒体、报纸等渠道向公众提问。这次的问题是：Ozempic等GLP-1类药物及后续减重是否改变了你的亲密关系？

Right. Well, we, at the Times, have a thing called a callout where you ask the public a question, and and that question is posted on social media and in the paper and all over the place. And then we get responses to that question. And the question was this. Has a GLP one drug like Ozempic and subsequent weight loss changed your relationship?

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后

And

那是去年圣诞节和新年之间的那一周，就像收到礼物一样。我收到了很多对征集活动的回复，其中不少真的很有趣，我想说。有一条特别引人注目。我直接告诉你内容好吗？好的。他是这么说的：

so I was it was the week last year between Christmas and New Year's, and it's like it was like presents. And I was getting all of these responses to the callout, and a lot of them were really interesting, I just wanna say. And one jumped out at me. Should I just tell you what it Yes. What he said?

好的。嗯，我记下来了。他写道：我认为它改变了一些事情。减少了酒精摄入，缩小了饭量，改善了健康状况，提高了对饮食的认知。

Okay. Yeah. I have it. He wrote, I believe it has changed a few things. Less alcohol consumption, smaller meal portions, improved health outcomes, increased awareness of food and drink consumption.

但我觉得GLP-1影响了我妻子的性欲，她对性完全没兴趣。可能部分源于形象问题，她的情绪波动也更明显了。我当时就想，字里行间信息量很大。首先很多人提到了性，但他的描述特别尖锐。他显然在反复思考原因，为此困扰。

But I believe GLP one has affected my wife's libido, no interest in sex. Perhaps due in part to image issues, also increased mood swings on her part. And I thought, there's a lot between the lines here. First of all, a lot of people wrote in about sex, but he was very pointed about it. Like, he's he's ruminating on why, struggling with it.

于是我给他们打了电话。能听到吗？后来我和夫妻俩都聊了。我们聊聊中间名吧。他们同意参与报道，条件是我使用他们的中间名。

And so I called them up. Can you hear me? Then I talked to both of them. Let's talk about middle names. And they agreed to participate in the story as long as I used their middle names.

哈维尔。哈维尔。

Javier. Javier.

所以他是哈维尔，她是珍。

So he is Javier, and she is Jean.

J e a n n e。好的，这样也行。

J e a n n e. Okay. That works.

他们住在新英格兰一个挺不错的郊区。

They live in New England in sort of a nice suburb.

几天前我们庆祝了结婚纪念日。

We celebrated our anniversary a few days ago.

他们结婚十五年了。你愿意接受我的拜访吗？好的。后来发展成了长期关系，邀请一直有效。

They had been married for fifteen years. And would you be open to a visit from me? Yeah. Okay. And it became a long relationship The invitation's open.

期间我不断追问这些药物如何改变他们婚姻中的互动关系。

In which I was probing and probing and probing about how these medications were changing the dynamics in their marriage.

详细说说吧，药物是怎么影响他们婚姻的？

So tell me more about that. How were the drugs affecting their marriage?

嗯，我觉得或许先谈谈他们吸毒前的关系会有所帮助，这要追溯到高中时期。

Well, I think maybe it's helpful to talk first about what their relationship was like before the drugs, and it goes back to high school.

我是在高三那年遇见她的，那得回到1987年了。

Junior year is when I met her, so that takes us to 1987.

他们都在萨克拉门托长大。你注意到她什么了？比如，是什么让你喜欢上她的？

They both grew up in Sacramento. What notice about her? Like, what what made you like her?

比如她的性格。非常外向，笑容灿烂。

Like, her personality. Very outgoing, great smile.

呃，我...我觉得他很帅。

Well, I I thought he was cute.

他既是橄榄球队员，也在乐队里。

He was a football player and also in the band.

所以你知道，他是进攻线锋。身材健壮，块头很大，作为一个女人，这会让你在拥抱这样的人时感到特别安心，明白吗，就是有种安全感。

So, you know, he's an offensive lineman. He's fit, but a big guy and which, you know, as a a woman is very comforting, you know, when you when you hug someone like that, you know, just feel safe.

那么当时在高中时期，你会如何描述自己的身体状况？

And so at that time in high school, how would you have described your own body?

我当时超重，你知道的，那时候才17岁，胖乎乎的。

I was overweight, you know, back then, only 17 years old, fat.

她当时体型偏大，并为此感到极度不自在。

She was, like, in a bigger body and excruciatingly self conscious about that.

所以总是感觉很糟糕，从没觉得自己有吸引力。

So always felt awful, never felt attractive.

她说自己后来变成了一个超级能干的讨好者，参加所有社团活动，做各种事情来弥补对自己身材的自卑。而他当时暗恋她。两人都跟我讲过这个故事：高中时镇上有场乐队演出，他主动提出送她去停车场。

And she would say that she became, like, a super competent pleaser on all the clubs, doing all the things in order to compensate for the way she felt about her body. And he had a crush on her. And they both told me this story about how, in high school, there was this band performance in town, and he offered to walk her to her car.

对。所以那是我第一次尝试，嗯...你知道，就说让我送你上车吧，然后...算是试探一下她的反应。

Right. So that's that's that was my first attempt was Mhmm. You know, just let me walk you out to your car and then, you know, kinda test the waters there.

我说不用。不需要。我可是个独立女性，不需要任何男人护送。不过我觉得他这个举动挺绅士的。

I said, no. No. You know, I'm a powerful woman. I don't need any man to walk me to my car. But I thought it was very gallant.

于是

And so

她似乎无法相信他那样喜欢她。

It was as though she couldn't believe that he liked her in that way.

因为她缺乏安全感？她是

Because she was insecure? She was

对自己的身体极度不自信。

so insecure about her body.

你知道，我人生中有过这样的时刻，当有人真的在对我调情或试图接近我时，我完全察觉不到这些信号，因为我对自己的身体感到非常不自在。嗯。我总觉得他们一定是在欺负我，或者是在取笑我，甚至是故意刻薄。

You know, there have been times in my life where, you know, someone was actually flirting with me or trying to come on to me, and I I just don't register the signs because I feel so uncomfortable in my own body Mhmm. That I I feel like they must be bullying me or, you know, teasing me or just being mean.

所以即便她也暗恋着他，却始终不愿相信。

So even though she had a crush on him too, she wouldn't believe it.

听起来，尽管他们可能互相喜欢，或者说他确实喜欢她，但他们在高中时并没有在一起。确实没有。不过他们关系很亲密。

So it sounds like, basically, even though they might have liked each other or he certainly liked her, they did not get together in high school. They did not. But they were close.

是的。他们是高中时代的单恋情侣。后来各自与他人结婚了。

Yes. They were unrequited high school sweethearts. And they each married other people.

当时的情况是，我的第一次婚姻即将走到尽头。

What happened was that my first marriage was coming to an end.

我的第一次婚姻刚刚结束。

My first marriage had just ended.

然后

And then

我们所有的朋友都在Facebook上重新联系上了。

All of our friends were reconnecting on Facebook.

珍在Facebook上查找了哈维尔。

Jean looked up Javier on Facebook.

那年秋天我们即将迎来二十周年同学会。

Our twenty year reunion was coming up that fall.

我告诉她，能一起喝杯咖啡会是很棒的交流机会。

And I told her that it'd be great to connect and have a cup of coffee.

他们向我描述初次约会的情景，当两人同时回忆时，那种感觉就像——终于等到对的人。你知道，他们都流露出那种心照不宣的默契

They told me about their first date, and it just felt when they both described it, like, finally. You know, they both had this feeling of like

他们心知肚明。

They knew.

他们心知肚明。

They knew.

那杯咖啡最终变成晚餐配啤酒，后来又开车到天际线观景台俯瞰海湾。就在那时，你知道的，那个吻自然而然地发生了。

The cup of coffee ended up being a dinner and some beers and then a ride up to the skyline where you could see down under the bay. And that's, you know, that's when the kiss happened. And

我觉得之后的事情进展得相当迅速。

And I think things went pretty fast from there.

我记得我们在一起的第一晚，我们...我们确实在性方面建立了亲密关系。

I think I I remember the first night that we got together, that we we we had you know, we connected sexually intimately.

他们俩都向我讲述了他们第一次发生性关系的经历。

And they both told me about the first time that they had sex.

我是说，考虑到她可能有自我形象问题，知道该怎么表达呢？她在我面前毫不介意脱去衣服，这让我既惊讶又欣喜。

I mean, knowing how should I say this? Assuming that she may have self image issues, I was really impressed and delighted that she had no problem disrobing

嗯。

Mhmm.

在我面前。

Before me.

他描述这件事的方式，就像是在讲述一次难以置信的神奇而毫无拘束的互动。

The way he talked about it was just as this unbelievably magical, uninhibited interaction.

她从未说过‘别看我’或‘我为此感到羞耻’之类的话，也没抱怨过靴子太大、臀部太胖或不喜欢这个角色等等。完全没有这类言论。所以，嗯，我某种程度上认为她对自己的身体是满意的。嗯。

She didn't say don't look at me or I'm ashamed of this or the other or my boots are too big or my butt's too big or I don't like this role, whatever it might be. There was never any talk of that. So Mhmm. I I kind of thought that she was happy in her body. Mhmm.

他的观点是，她对自己的身体毫无拘束，而这让他感到非常愉悦。我把这个故事讲给他们俩听时，她却说：‘我记得不太一样。并不是我对自己的身体感觉良好，实际上我从未对自己的身体满意过。’

His point was that she was so uninhibited about her body, and that that was so pleasing to him. And I'm running the story by the both of them. And she was like, I don't exactly remember it that way. It wasn't that I felt great about my body. I never felt good about my body.

那晚最奇妙的是，我暗恋了他二十年，而此刻我们终于在一起了。

What was amazing about that night was that I'd have this crush on him for twenty years, and here we finally were.

现在我们知道他们最终走到了一起。对吧？他们结婚了。

Now we know that they eventually get together. Right? They get married.

没错。他们搬去东海岸，她在企业里获得重要职位。她是经济支柱。你能感觉到他们彼此契合对方的浪漫幻想，且对彼此有着强烈的性吸引力。这是他们作为伴侣身份的重要部分。

Yeah. They move to the East Coast where she gets big jobs in corporations. She's the earner. You get the sense that they fit each other's romantic fantasies, and they're extremely sexually attracted to each other. It's a big part of their identity as a couple.

他们有了孩子，过上了热爱美食的生活。他们喜欢餐厅，钟爱葡萄酒，还在餐厅里添置了大酒柜。简直是梦想中的生活。

They have a child. They settle into a life where they both love food. They love restaurants. They love wine, and they get a big wine fridge in their dining room. Living the dream.

街那头住着他们的朋友，他们会举办通宵的游戏之夜。就这样过着幸福郊区式的——

And they have friends down the street, and they have these game nights where they last, like, all night. And they have this kind of happy, suburban

欢乐。他们看起来很欢乐。像是懂得尽情享受生活的人。

Fun. They seem Fun. They seem like fun people. They enjoy living life with gusto.

完全正确。他们是行动派。懂吗？他们热衷于品味生活。但自始至终，琼都在与体重作斗争。

Totally. They're doers. You know? They like to imbibe in life. But throughout this, you know, Jean struggled with her weight.

从BMI指数来看，我曾属于肥胖。

I was obese from a BMI perspective.

生完孩子后，她体重超标。她对此深恶痛绝，还患上了产后抑郁症。体重怎么也减不下来，这让她非常沮丧。

After she had her baby, she was heavy. She hated it. She had postpartum depression. She could not lose the weight. She did not feel good about that.

她对自我形象的认知、对自己身体的感受都很糟糕。嗯。她说这辈子体重反复增减70磅都有好几次，感觉就像一场永无止境的挣扎。

Her self image, her sense of her body was not happy. Mhmm. And she would say she's gained and lost 70 pounds multiple times in her life, and it just felt like an endless struggle to her.

她有没有告诉你为什么这么难保持体重？

Did she tell you why she was having so much trouble keeping the weight off?

你知道她描述的那种感觉吗？就是所谓的食物噪音。

You know, she talked about feels like to you? Food noise.

是的。对我来说食物噪音就像一种持续不断的进食欲望。我不觉得饿，也不觉得饱。所以缺乏那些提示何时该进食的生理信号。

Yeah. Food noise to me feels like a constant need to eat. I don't feel hungry. I don't feel full. So I don't have those physiological triggers to know when to eat.

她描述的那种自我厌恶感——无法控制食欲，仿佛这是意志力的失败。

And the feeling of self loathing that she describes of not being able to control that. Like, it's a failure of will.

然后对自己吃的食物感到尴尬。所以偷偷吃东西，你知道的，比如独自在家时吃一品脱冰淇淋，因为我可以这么做，而且能藏起来。就是

And then being embarrassed about the food that I was eating. So sneaking food, you know, if when I was home by myself having a pint of ice cream because I could, and I could hide it. Just

最终，这会导致健康问题。

Eventually, this leads to health issues.

我确实还有其他随时间发展出来的慢性病。我患上了非酒精性脂肪肝病。

I do have, other chronic conditions that it developed over time. I had nonalcoholic fatty liver disease.

然后她对医生说，要不要试试这些GLP-1类药物？

And she says to her doctor, how about one of these GLP one drugs?

然后他就开了处方。

And he wrote the script.

丽莎，你能再提醒我们一下这些药物具体是怎么起作用的吗？

And can you just remind us, Lisa, how do these drugs actually work?

嗯，它们通过减少你的饥饿感来发挥作用。正因如此，人们体重会迅速大幅下降，那些一生都在节食并与体重作斗争的人，只要持续用药就能保持体重不反弹。而且，你知道，她开始快速减掉很多体重。

Well, it they work by reducing your feeling of being hungry. And because of that, people lose a ton of weight really fast, and people who have been dieting their whole lives and struggling with their weight are able to keep their weight off as long as they're on the drugs. And, you know, she starts losing a lot of weight really fast.

她的衣服。她的衣服开始变得，你知道的，宽松多了。你

Her clothing. Her clothing was starting to, you know, fit a lot looser. You

知道，10磅，20磅。

know, 10 pounds, 20 pounds.

比如她以前不穿牛仔裤，因为穿着不舒服。她总是穿那种紧身裤类型的衣服。

She used to not wear jeans, for example, because she wouldn't be able to fit in them comfortably. She was always wearing the leggings type of clothing.

他们都注意到了这一点。

They both noticed it.

所以她慢慢地从瑜伽裤过渡到，你知道的，牛仔裤。

So she slowly trans transitioned from the yoga pants to the, you know, to the jeans.

吃得不多。而且

Not eating that much. And

我有生以来第一次觉得，这可能就是转机。因为我已经解决了对食物的渴望，也许这次我能保持住这个体重。

I feel for the first time in my life, like, this may be it. Like, I may be able to keep this weight off because I've addressed the food noise.

那些一直折磨她的食物噪音消失了。她感觉这简直像个奇迹，真的。

The food noise that had been tormenting her is gone. She feels like it's like a miracle, really.

哇。所以这是一个非常戏剧性、非常快速的转变。

Wow. So this is just a really dramatic, very quick shift.

是的。我是说，她在八个月内减掉了60磅。然后，她注意到人们开始以不同的方式对待她。

Yes. I mean, she lost 60 pounds inside of eight months. And then, you know, she notices that, like, people start treating her differently.

是啊。有一次工作出差飞回家，我坐在靠窗的座位上。

Yeah. So flying home on a trip work trip, and I was in the window seat. And

她告诉我这个故事，说她经常因工作出差。有一次从芝加哥飞回家，她坐在靠窗的座位上。

She told me this story about she travels a lot for work. And she was on a flight home from Chicago, and she was sitting in the window seat.

一个男人坐在中间座位上，说，哦，我很高兴坐在一个小个子旁边。你知道，他说，有时候你坐在中间座位，被两个大个子挤着，真的很不舒服。所以一方面，我很高兴，我是个瘦小的人。但另一方面，这让我很生气，因为以前人们看着我或坐在我旁边时，他们是不是一直在想这些事？

And a guy sat in the middle seat and said, oh, I'm so glad I'm sitting next to a small person. You know, he said, you know, sometimes you're in the middle seat, and you're crowded between two big people, and it's really uncomfortable. And so on the one hand, I'm like, yay. I'm a small person. But on the other hand, it really pissed off because when people looked at me before or sat next to me on the plane before, were they thinking these things the whole time where I'm Yeah.

我试图愉快地聊天，而他们脑子里想的全是我被这个胖子困住了？

Trying to have a nice conversation and all that's in their head is I'm stuck next to this fat person?

她为更强大的自己感到无比愤怒。

She was so furious on behalf of her bigger self.

此刻的她仿佛被困在旧我与新我之间，

It's like in this moment, she's almost caught between her old self and her new She's

她捍卫着旧我，却又为新我欣喜。这真是个不可思议的蜕变时刻。

defending her old self as she's, like, happy for her new self. It's really an unbelievable moment of transformation.

嗯，工作中也是如此。

Well, and even at work.

要知道，她在职场也有同样感受。作为成功职场人，她向来如此。

You know, at work, she felt this way. She's a successful professional. She's always been a successful professional.

但我觉得市场部在给我更多曝光机会。

But I feel like the marketing team is putting me out there more.

如今她在职场突然获得许多对外展示的机会，比如被推选为媒体发言人，或是以前所未有的方式向董事会汇报。

Now suddenly at work, she's getting these outward facing opportunities where she's being put forward as a talking head to talk to the media, for example, or she's being put forward to talk to the board in a way that she hadn't been before.

但我感觉人们对我的看法变了。我还是同一个人，只是轻了六十磅。

But I feel like there's this different perception of me. I'm the same person. I'm just sixty pounds lighter.

其他人也提到过这类药物带来的变化——当世界开始'认可'你时（我在这里打上引号），机会之门便敞开了。我采访的许多故事主角都谈到因此获得的机会：升职、约会邀约。你能接触到以往无法企及的伴侣，身体也能完成从前做不到的动作。有位受访者突然就开始跑马拉松了。

Now this is a thing that others have said too about these drugs. That once the world starts, you know, approving of you, and I've got air quotes up here, the doors open. And a lot of the people I talked to for this story talk about the opportunities that get presented to them, promotions, and dates. You have access to partners that you didn't have access to before, and you can do things physically with your body that you couldn't do before. I talked to one guy who started running marathons all of a sudden.

哇。若是已婚人士，这更会引发一系列始料未及的问题——那些潜伏的、未曾言明的矛盾，或是结婚时的默契约定，现在都需要以完全出乎意料的方式重新协商。吉恩和哈维尔的情况正是如此。稍后回来。

Wow. And if you're married, it presents a whole world of things that you have to suddenly start figuring out that may have been latent or unspoken or the agreement that you made when you got together has to be renegotiated renegotiated in some way that you didn't anticipate at all. And that was definitely true for Jean and Javier. We'll be right back.

大家好，我是《纽约时报》产品推荐服务Wirecutter的劳伦·德拉贡，负责耳机测试。汗液因含盐分其实具有导电性。我们会自制人工汗液反复喷洒在耳机上，观察长期影响。这是85分贝的飞机噪音环境。

Hey. It's Lauren Dragon from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from The New York Times, and I test headphones. Sweat is actually conductive because of the saline content in it. We So basically make our own fake sweat and spray it over and over on these headphones to see what happens to them over time. This is 85 dB of airplane noise.

现在我们要戴上降噪耳机，测试实际隔音效果。

We're gonna put on some noise canceling headphones and see how well they actually block out the sounds.

把它们放在

Put them on the

地上踢过去。好了，开始。坏了吗？没有。

ground and kick them over there. Okay. Go. Are they broken? No.

我的数据库里有3136条记录，包括孩子、健身、跑步相关的内容。它有闪电接口还是USB-C接口？蓝牙版本是多少？支持FX HD吗？

I have 3,136 entries in my database. Kids, workout, running. Does it have a connector that's lightning or USB c? What version of Bluetooth is it? Does it have FX HD?

在Wirecutter，我们为您代劳测评工作。如需真实世界的独立产品评测与推荐，请访问nytimes.com/wirecutter。我们甚至还有太阳能供电的款式。

We have ones that track your At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to. For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com/wirecutter. We even have one that's solar powered.

丽莎，我很好奇珍正在经历的身心巨变，会如何影响她与哈维尔的关系。

Lisa, I'm so curious how these huge changes that Jean is going through, both physically and emotionally, are affecting her relationship with Javier.

首先发生的变化就是她完全失去了对酒精的欲望。这并不罕见，服用这类药物的人常常会丧失饮酒欲望，以至于研究人员正在探讨GLP-1类药物是否能用于治疗酒精滥用、成瘾及其他强迫行为。对珍而言，这种食欲改变彻底颠覆了她与丈夫的娱乐方式——他们再也不能在傍晚窝在沙发上开瓶红酒，或是去本地精酿酒吧尝鲜了。

I mean, one of the first things that happened was that she totally lost her appetite for alcohol. And that's not unusual. People on these medications frequently lose their appetite for alcohol so much so that researchers are investigating whether GLP ones are a good treatment for alcohol abuse, addiction, other kinds of compulsive behaviors. And for Jean, the loss of appetite just changed her whole approach to having fun with her husband. I mean, no longer could they sit on the couch and uncork a bottle of wine at the end of the day or go to the local brew pub and try out the new beer.

所有这些对她来说都不再有趣了。

None of it felt good to her anymore.

我们去朋友家参加桌游之夜这类活动时，虽然照常赴约，但我会选择不喝酒。

We go over to a friend's house, and we'll have a game night or something like that. I mean, we'll still go. I just won't drink.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这没什么问题。

And that's fine.

是的。但也是因为她对那种生活的热情——外出、与朋友聚会、熬夜、大家都在喝酒——这些欲望本身也是有极限的。

Yeah. But it was also just that her, like, appetite for that kind of life, where you're going out and you're hanging with friends and you're staying up late and everybody's drinking, those appetites, they had limits as well.

其实我一直希望能早点回家。现在我可以直接说，我不喝酒了，我想回家。我，你知道的，我希望你也...

I would have liked to get home earlier before anyway. And now I can say, I'm not drinking. I would like to be home. I, you know, I and I want you being

她内心有内向的一面，但之前无法表达，因为她总是忙着做一个讨好型的外向者——由于体型较大，她总希望别人喜欢她。

had an introverted side that hadn't been able to express herself because she was so busy being a pleaser extrovert because she was in a bigger body, and she wanted people to like her.

我不像我丈夫那样是个夜猫子，我喜欢睡前用Kindle看会儿书。如果熬夜到很晚，第二天状态就会很差。

I am not as much of a night owl as my husband is, and I like to read my Kindle a little bit before I go to sleep at night. And I just don't do well the next day if I'm out really late.

当她瘦下来后，就能坚持自我并说出：其实我更喜欢待在家里。

Once she was in a smaller body, she could assert herself and say, like, actually, I like being at home.

但她也在告诉哈维尔，她不想做那些他以为她喜欢的事

But she's also telling Javier she doesn't wanna do the things that he thought that she loved

并且他们曾相爱相伴。他们相爱相伴。没错。那就像是他们长久以来共同乐趣的基石。

and that they loved together. They loved together. Right. That was like the fabric of the fun that they had always had together.

他对这一切作何反应？他是怎么

How does he respond to all this? How does

他 他并不喜欢这样。

he He does not like it.

不。不。我喜欢顺其自然。

No. No. I like going with the flow.

我是说，活在当下，享受社交场合或社交活动中发生的任何事情。是的。

I mean, living in the moment and enjoying, you know, whatever's going on in social aspects or social events. Yeah.

他的态度是，不。这不是我们的作风。我们是会做这些事情的人。我

He was like, no. This is not how we are. We are the people who do these things. I

认为他想念他的酒友，那个愿意陪他熬夜的人。

think he misses his drinking buddy, the person who was gonna stay out late.

听起来生活方式上的差异导致了很多紧张关系，

It sounds like the lifestyle stuff led to a lot of tension,

不仅仅是紧张。我是说，我觉得他们真的、真的、真的过得很艰难。当我见到他们时，他们经常吵架。

more than tension. I mean, I think they had a really, really, really hard time. And when I met them, they were fighting a lot.

以前，那只是对话，而现在变成了争吵，而且我们中总有一方会气冲冲地离开，因为我们在某些事情上无法达成一致。

Before, it was a conversation and, you know, and now it's a fight, And one of us is gonna walk away angry because we're not seeing eye to eye on something.

而且他们的争吵可能既大声又难堪。

And their fights could be loud and ugly.

所以我开始认真思考我到底在和谁在一起。我是说，这个和我共度了将近十五年时光的人，真的开始变得让我感到陌生了。

So I started really wondering who I was with. I mean, this person that I've been with for, you know, better part of fifteen years really started to take a change for maybe

你知道，哈维尔对我说，我们瞬间就能从零

You know, Javier said to me, you know, we go to from zero

飙升到六十。

to 60 in, like, seconds.

归根结底，对我来说如何经营我们的关系变得非常困惑。我甚至会对她说，你知道吗，我需要……我不认识你了。我需要一张路线图。就像我需要一张路线图来弄清楚，什么是界限之内，什么是界限之外。我觉得我不能再像以前那样在你面前做自己了，因为我不想冒犯你，或者不想让你感觉不好，因为事情已经改变了很多。

Bottom line is it became very confusing to me as far as as far as how to manage our relationship. I would even comment to her and say, you know, I need I I don't recognize you. I need a road map. I need it's like I need a road map to figure out, you know, what what's within bounds and what's out of bounds. I I don't feel like I can be myself with you the way I used to be because I don't wanna offend you or or I don't wanna make you feel badly because things have changed a lot.

其中最大的变化之一是他们完全停止了性生活。当我遇见他们时，自从她开始服药以来，他们就没有过性生活，这已经快一年了。哈维尔告诉我他非常想念它。他想念她，想念她的身体。

And one of the biggest things that changed is that they completely stopped having sex. When I met them, they hadn't had sex since she started taking the drugs, which was almost a year. And Javier told me that he really missed it. And he missed her, and he missed her body.

我曾经喜欢感受她的身体，她丰满的身体在床上靠着我。她身体的柔软，你知道的，那额外的肚子和额外的臀部，就在旁边

I used to love feeling her body, her big body next to me in bed. The softness, of her body, you know, the extra tummy and the extra booty, you know, next

他们都谈到了她臀部的消失。你怀念你以前身体的某些部分吗？

They both talk about the loss of her butt. Are there things you miss about your previous body?

我的臀部。

My butt.

他们都爱她的臀部。

They both loved her butt.

没错。所以我怀念那种丰腴感。那种感觉在我们关系的早期对我来说是一种吸引力，能够靠在她身边感受她，用一个不太恰当的词来说，就是‘覆盖’在我身上。现在这不再是一个选项了。现在只能是拥抱，尽可能紧地拥抱，或者说我能做到的最紧的拥抱。

Right. So I I miss that that voluptuousness. And and that and that became and that was an attraction early on in our relationship, to me anyways, being able to, you know, lean up next to her and feel her, for lack of a better word, draping over me or onto me. That's no longer an option. Now it's it's cuddling, and it's cuddling as tight and closely as we can or as I can.

这就是亲密关系的全部了。老兄，我实在想不通为什么没有身体上的亲密。嗯。一点都没有。

And that's that's the extent of the intimacy. Man, I I'm at a loss for why there's no physical intimacy. Mhmm. There hasn't been any.

他们之间那种身体上的连接已经完全变成了别的东西。而且两人都不知道该如何重新找回它。但对你来说，那种丰盈感是充满情欲的。

This, like, physical connection that they had has completely changed into something else. And neither one of them knows exactly how to find it again. But for you, the voluptuousness was erotic.

那是情欲的。是令人安心的。是美好的。是，你知道的，感官上的愉悦。但现在不再是那样了。

It was erotic. It was comforting. It was nice. It was, you know, sensual. And that's no longer the case.

而这个新身体，我还没能真正触摸或探索，诸如此类的。

And and this new body, I haven't really been able to touch or or explore or anything like that.

它不再那么容易接近了

It's not as accessible to

确实不容易。是的。

It's not. No.

为什么他们没有做爱？是不是就像另一种被药物抑制的欲望？我是说，哈维尔的理论就是这样的

Why haven't they had sex? Like, was that just another appetite that the drugs reduced? I mean, that's what Javier's theory was

嗯。

Mhmm.

可能是。有证据表明这些药物会降低性欲。

Is, maybe. There's some evidence that these medications decrease sex drive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但更多情况下它们会增强性欲。而简对此有不同的理论依据。她经历了更年期，长期服用抗抑郁药物，这两者都已知会抑制性欲。但我认为实际上还有更深层的原因在起作用。

But there's more that they increase it. And Jean has different theories of the case. She's gone through menopause. She's been on antidepressants for a really long time, and both of those things are known to suppress sex drive. But I think there's actually something bigger at work here.

我没对他明说。只是之前没有拒绝而已。

I haven't said this to him. I just didn't say no before.

嗯。于是她开始能在为他人做事（因为对方想要）和明确表达自己需求之间划清界限。她不想发生性关系，并在婚姻中向丈夫表明了这一点。

Mhmm. So She started to be able to draw boundaries between doing things for other people because they want them and being able to articulate what she wants. And she doesn't wanna have sex, and she's saying so in her marriage to her husband.

我在设定界限。现在我不想发生关系，但以前我会嗯...因为我觉得那是我的责任。

I'm setting the boundaries. I don't wanna have sex, but before I would Mhmm. Because I felt like it was my responsibility.

这在某种程度上对她来说是一种赋能。

That is empowering for her in some way.

天啊，我完全能理解为什么像简这样经历剧烈身心变化的人会需要——至少——暂停性生活。但我也能想象，如果你是她的伴侣，突然发现曾经与你共享激情愉悦性生活的对象不再渴望或享受它，那该是多么毁灭性的打击。她有告诉他自己的真实感受吗？

God, I can totally see why making an intense physical and emotional change could lead somebody like Jean to need to, if nothing else, take a break from having sex. But I can imagine if you are the person's partner that suddenly finding out that, like, the person that you shared a really active pleasing sex life with doesn't want it or doesn't like it, I can imagine that that's totally devastating. Did she tell him that that's how she felt?

我的意思是，他能察觉到。但他非常希望能继续做她充满爱意的伴侣。

I mean, he could tell. But he very much wants to be her loving partner.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么当你有性需求而对方没有时，这种'爱意伴侣'意味着什么呢？

And what does that mean in the context of, like, not having sex when you want sex?

他们正在通过个人治疗和共同治疗来解决这个问题。

Well, they were both working on this in therapy individually and together.

比如我们和我的治疗师讨论过，她提供了一个很好的链接，是关于亲密接触的。

For example, we discussed with my therapist, and she provided a nice a a link that has to do with intimate touch.

哈维尔的治疗师给了他一个练习，旨在帮助那些没有性生活或想要克服某些障碍以获得性生活的伴侣。

And Javier's therapist gave him an exercise that was meant to help couples who aren't having sex or who want to get over some hurdle in order to have sex.

这分为三个步骤或三个阶段。

There's this three step or three phases.

第一阶段是，一个伴侣穿着衣服躺下，另一个伴侣触摸他/她的全身，除了敏感区域。躺下并穿着衣服的伴侣会说出他们喜欢和不喜欢的方式。

And the first stage is, you know, one partner lies down fully clothed, and the other partner touches himher everywhere except the erogenous zones. And the partner who's clothed and lying down says what they do and don't like.

哦，那里不行，或者那样让我觉得痒，或者别碰那里。他们也可以说，我喜欢那样，或者，你知道的

Oh, that's out of bounds, or that makes me ticklish, or don't touch me there. Or they can say, I like that, or, you know

他们做了一次。

And they did it one time.

大声说出来

A vocal about

哈维尔说他非常享受这个过程。

And Javier said he enjoyed it very much.

然后她

And and she

但当他问她是否想再来一次时，她拒绝了。

But when he asked her, did she wanna do it again? She said no.

他们甚至没能完成练习的第一阶段。

They didn't even get past the the first phase of the exercise.

我想解决这个问题，因为对已婚夫妇来说，缺乏身体亲密是很困难的。

I wanna solve this problem because it's difficult for a married couple not to have that physical intimacy.

没错。但还有一点，当你自己都还没完全适应这个新身体时，却要和他分享它。是的。这能引起你的共鸣吗？

Right. But also, you have to share this new body with him when you haven't totally gotten comfortable in it yourself. Yeah. Does that resonate with you or

是的，确实如此。当他称赞我的外表时，我从未感到自在。现在我更觉得自己配得上那些赞美，但仍需适应这个更瘦的身体以及它意味着什么。

Yes. It does. I have never felt comfortable when he has made a positive comment about my physical appearance. I feel more entitled to that praise now, but still trying to come to terms with being in a smaller body and what does that mean

嗯。

Yeah.

对我们来说。

For us.

是啊。

Yeah.

除了不用替他感到尴尬。你懂吗？他不再娶了个胖女人了。

Other than not being embarrassed on his behalf. You know? He's not married to a fat woman anymore.

听起来药物似乎挖掘出了某些东西。它们揭示出他们性生活中的某种动态，简可能之前只是隐约意识到，但在她对自己感觉不同之前，肯定无法采取行动。

It sounds like the drugs kind of unearthed something. They unearthed some kind of dynamic in their sex life that Jean had only been maybe vaguely aware of, but certainly had not been in a position to act on before she felt differently about herself.

是的。我认为确实如此。我觉得他们俩都完全措手不及

Yes. I think that's true. I think they're both completely blindsided

关于这点。我并未察觉，你知道，出于无知或天真，我们之间存在许多根本差异。我们似乎享受一切，美食、饮酒、社交、积极的生活方式、为人父母。我感觉我们总是意见一致，继续前行，你知道，我们并非黑夜中交错的两艘船。嗯。擦肩而过。

by that. I didn't see, you know, for being ignorant or naive, that there were many fundamental differences. We seemed to enjoy everything, the food, the drinking, the socializing, the active lifestyles, being parents. I felt that we were always on the same page and going on you know, we're on the same we weren't two ships in the night Mhmm. Crossing paths.

我们是一艘船上的。

We were one one ship.

你知道，我们进入关系时都带着些未明说的契约，有时并非完全愉快的妥协。然后当这样的事情发生时，你就得，好比说，给这份契约透透气，然后说，好吧。这并非我想要的。而他们正在这么做。所以在某种程度上，你被赋予了占据空间的权利去表达你的需求，这迫使你必须弄清楚

You know, we all get into our relationships with these unstated contracts that are not totally happy compromises sometimes. And then something like this happens, and you have to, like, ventilate that contract and say, okay. Like, this is not what I want. And they're doing that. So you're empowered in a way to take up space to say what you want, and that forces you to have to figure out what

你想要什么。

you want.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

不仅仅是像想在十点离开派对那样简单。你知道，某种程度上那很容易。比如，我是否想和丈夫保持性关系？我想辞去公司工作吗？我是否想...这些都是更重大的问题。

Beyond just like, wanna leave the party at ten. You know, that's, in a way that's easy. Like, do I wanna have a sexual relationship with my husband? Do I wanna leave my corporate job? Do I wanna like like, these are much bigger questions.

是啊。是啊。唉，可悲的是到了53岁我才开始思考这些。这些不应该是大多数人毕业后就该考虑的事情吗？对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and kind of sad that at 53 that I'm starting to have those thoughts. They aren't those the kinds of things that most people think about when they've graduated from school. Right?

我只是...我一直是个乖女孩，做那些被期待的事。

I just I'm the good girl, and I do what what's expected.

嗯。以某种固定的方式。而现在你有了不同的

Mhmm. In a certain body. And now you have a different

在某个身体里。是的。

In a certain body. Yeah.

我知道这只是一对夫妇和一个轶事，但我真的很好奇，你对这些药物如何影响关系有什么大的收获。

I know this is just one couple and one anecdote, but I am really curious if you had any big takeaways for how these drugs could affect relationships.

我是说，一位心理治疗师告诉我，你知道，浪漫的伴侣关系、婚姻都依赖于稳定性和一切保持不变。所以我们有关于当你经历父母去世、搬家或生孩子时会发生什么的书籍。这些都是巨大的生活变化。但我们还没有讨论过当一方的身体完全改变，他们对身体的感受也完全改变时会发生什么。但我与许多夫妇交谈过，与他们交谈后我得出的结论是，那些似乎处理得最好的夫妇是对彼此期望不僵化的夫妇。

I mean, one psychotherapist said to me, you know, romantic partnerships, marriages are invested in stability and everything staying the same. And so we have books about what happens when you're going through the death of a parent or when you move or when you have a baby. Like, these are gigantic life changes. But we haven't spoken about what happens when one partner's body completely changes and their feelings about their body completely change. But I talked to a lot of couples, and what I concluded after speaking to them was that the couples that seemed to manage it best were couples who weren't rigid in their expectations of one another.

你是什么意思？我的意思是，你不能太执着于，比如，我们是那些一起吃晚餐的人。我们是那个好的。

What do you mean? What I mean is you can't get too committed to, like, we are the people who have dinner. We are the Okay.

我不确定你要说什么。

I wasn't sure what you were gonna say.

你不能太执着于，比如，我做这个千层面，他喜欢吃

You can't be too committed to, like, I make this lasagna, and he loves to eat

它。嗯哼。

it. Uh-huh.

每周五我们都会和某某人喝两杯玛格丽塔。这类仪式对伴侣而言非常可靠且具有定义性，尤其是长期相处的伴侣。当其中一人开始服用减肥药时，这一切都会被重塑。如果双方能坦然接受——人还是那个人，我们可以换种方式相处。

We have two margaritas on Fridays with the so and so's. Those kinds of rituals, which are very reliable and very defining for couples, especially if you've been together for a really long time, All of that gets renovated with one person on a weight loss drug. And if a couple can say, like, it's okay. Like, still the same person. We'll do something else.

我们可以少吃千层面。丽莎，我认为...

We'll eat less lasagna. I believe, Lisa, what

你描述的是亲密关系中的灵活性。

you are describing is flexibility in relationships.

关系中的灵活性，这确实非常非常难。好吧。你最近怎么样？我该怎么说呢，最近我又和哈维尔、珍聊过，注意到他们之间有种柔和的气氛。

Flexibility in relationships, which is really, really hard. Alright. So how have you been? How I will say that I spoke to Javier and Jean again recently. And I noticed a softness between them.

嗯。一种我从未见过的共情与理解。

Mhmm. A level of empathy and understanding that I hadn't seen before.

这并不糟糕，不算有毒，也不可怕。整体和谐，但仍有紧张时刻——不过这在关系中很正常。

It's not bad. It's not toxic. It's not horrific. It's harmonious, but there's still times of tension. But then that's normal with relationships.

你会怎么形容？有点像跳舞？

How would you describe it? Kinda like a dance?

我觉得不像我们之前那样焦虑和愤怒了。

I think not as anxious and angry as we had been.

当我见到他们时，他们说已经同意在一起了，但我感觉那岌岌可危。而最近这次见面时，我感觉他们真心接受了那个协议。是的。那身体接触方面呢？我必须问问。

When I met them, they said that they had agreed to be together, but I felt that that was at stake. And this most recent time when I met them, I felt that they were bought into that agreement. Yeah. And what about the physical stuff? I have to ask.

还是老样子。没错。

Still the same. Yep.

但他们仍然没有性生活。

But they're still not having sex.

我对此的反应是保持耐心，不去强求。所以我也无能为力了。我是说，

My my reaction to that has been to be patient and to not be pushing it. So there's not much more I can do. I mean,

除了说这糟透了。

other than to say it sucks.

我很怀念那种亲密。也不知道是否还能恢复。

And I miss that. And I wonder if it'll ever come back.

你还有什么想说的吗？

Is there anything you wanna say more?

我依然强烈地认为，这是我为自己做过的最棒的事情之一。就是这样。你知道吗？我已经减掉了体重，并且会终身保持。我对此充满感激。

I still feel very strongly that this is the one of the best things that I've done for myself. This is it. You know? I I have lost the weight, and I will maintain this for life. And I'm just so grateful.

丽莎，非常感谢你。和你交谈真是件愉快的事。

Lisa, thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to talk to you.

我也非常享受这次谈话。谢谢你，瑞秋。我们稍后回来。

I really enjoyed it too. Thank you, Rachel. We'll be right back.

这是你尽情玩耍的日子，是你充分利用的早晨。

It's your day to play. It's your morning to make the most of.

这是你表达爱的方式。

It's your way to love.

这是你需要考虑的气候问题。

It's your climate to consider.

这是你关于‘我该看什么’的答案。

It's your answer to what should I watch?

这是你该存的钱。

It's your money to save.

这是你需逐行分析的歌曲。

It's your song to analyze line by line.

这是你寻找片刻宁静的10种方法。

It's your 10 ways to find a little calm.

这是你需理解的世界。

It's your world to understand.

《纽约时报》。更多信息请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

The New York Times. Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

以下是今日其他需知要闻：最高法院拒绝审理吉斯莱恩·麦克斯韦尔的上诉，这位杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的长期同伙因协助其犯罪活动被判有罪。此决定是麦克斯韦尔获得法院宽恕的最后机会，如今她提前出狱的唯一可能性可能只剩特朗普总统的特赦。此外，周一一名联邦法官拒绝阻止联邦部队进驻芝加哥，这引发了伊利诺伊州与联邦政府之间的对抗。该州已起诉特朗普政府，指控其制造混乱与不安全的环境，并违反美国宪法。

Here's what else you need to know today. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal for Ghislaine Maxwell, the longtime Jeffrey Epstein associate, who is convicted of charges relating to enabling his crimes. The decision was Maxwell's last chance to get clemency from the courts, and now her only option for an early release from prison is likely a pardon from president Trump. And on Monday, a federal judge declined to block federal troops from heading to Chicago, setting up a fight between Illinois and the federal government. The state has sued the Trump administration, claiming that it's creating chaotic and unsafe conditions for residents and violating the US constitution.

我们明天的节目将报道特朗普总统向芝加哥及其他城市派遣军队的行动。今天的节目由尼娜·费尔德曼制作，安娜·弗利协助，本·卡尔霍恩和林赛·加里森编辑，帕特里夏·威伦斯提供支持。音乐由玛丽安·洛萨诺、丹·鲍威尔、帕特·麦库斯克、黛安·王和利亚·肖·德梅隆创作，克里斯·伍德负责音效设计。以上就是本期《每日新闻》的全部内容。

We'll be covering the efforts by president Trump to send troops to Chicago and other cities on our show tomorrow. Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman with help from Anna Foley. It was edited by Ben Calhoun and Lindsey Garrison with help from Patricia Willens. Contains music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, and Leah Shaw Demeron, and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily.

我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，明天见。

I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.