《现代爱情》：她所渴望的那种痛

嘿，我是迈克尔。你可能已经注意到，每周日你都能在每日推送中收听到精彩节目《现代爱情》的剧集。《现代爱情》还会在我们的推送中持续几周。为了介绍本周的节目，我们请到了主持人安娜·马丁来到演播室。

Hey. It's Michael. As you've probably noticed, every Sunday, you have been hearing episodes of the fantastic show Modern Love right here on the daily feed. Modern Love is gonna be on our feed for a few more weeks. And to set up this week's show, I've got host Anna Martin right here in our studio.

嗨，安娜。

Hey, Anna.

嗨，迈克尔。

Hey, Michael.

感谢你能

Thank you for being

来。谢谢邀请。

here. Thanks for having me.

跟我们说说这周的剧集吧。

So tell us about this week's episode.

好的，迈克尔。我觉得我可能已经知道这个问题的答案了，但我还是想问——你认为自己是个过度思考者吗？

Alright, Michael. I feel like I I probably know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Do you consider yourself an overthinker?

百分之百是。

A 100%.

好吧。毫无疑问。

Okay. Without a doubt.

从来不是思考不足的人。

Never an underthinker.

我从来只是个过度思考者。永远无法恰到好处的过度思考。过度思考者。嗯哼。是的。

I never Only an overthinker. Never the right amount of Overthinker. Overthinker. Mhmm. Yep.

如果我告诉你，我采访过一个人找到了停止过度思考的方法，而且这方法涉及到被捆绑——不过是性感的那种，你会怎么想？

What if I told you I spoke to someone who'd figured out a way to stop their own overthinking, and it involves getting tied up, but in a sexy way?

难道还有其他类型的捆绑吗？

Is there any other kind of being tied up?

有的。

There is.

就像我每天都会说的那样，解释一下吧。

As I like to say on the daily, just explain that.

其实我会让格蕾丝·胡萨尔来解释。她是我这期节目采访的对象，写了一篇精彩的现代爱情随笔，我们的节目就是基于这篇文章。那篇文章名叫《我渴望的那种疼痛》。

I will actually let Grace Hussar explain that. She's the woman that I spoke to in this episode. She wrote a fantastic modern love essay that our episode is based on. That essay is called the kind of pain I wanted.

我爱这个标题。

I love that title.

嗯哼。好标题。

Mhmm. Great title.

所以这未必适合所有人。

So this is not necessarily for everyone.

不适合。这期节目不适合全家共赏。只是——

No. This would not be an episode for the full family. Just

其中的一部分。

part of it.

只是一部分。仅限成年人。

Just part of it. Just the adults.

好的。这可能是我的工作，也可能是你的工作，但我要来介绍本周的《现代爱情》剧集，我已经迫不及待想听了。就是它了。

Okay. This might be my job. This might be your job, but I'm gonna introduce this week's episode of modern love, which I can't wait to hear. Here it is.

精彩的介绍，迈克尔。谢谢你。《此刻与永恒的爱》

Great introduction, Michael. Thank you. Love now

坠入昨夜的爱河，爱意永存。

and forever. Fall in love last night, love.

爱比你所爱的任何事物都更强大。以爱之名。爱。而我爱你胜过一切。爱。

Love was stronger than anything you love. With a love. Love. And I love you more than anything. Love.

这就是爱。爱。

There's love. Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。您正在收听《现代爱情》。今天，我将与一位作家探讨她如何发现痛苦与BDSM是她全然活在当下、感知身体的关键。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today, I'm talking to a writer about how she discovered that pain and BDSM were key to her being fully in her body and moment.

在我生命中最重要时刻，我的大脑却总在思考：我该如何完美铭记这一刻。

In the most important moments of my life, my brain was instead focusing on how do I remember this so that it's perfect.

格蕾丝·胡萨尔一生都在与保持专注抗争。她总是游离于当下之外，这令她困扰。同为深度过度思考者，我不得不说对此深有共鸣。比如这个细节让我印象深刻：格蕾丝告诉我，当她第一次对男友说“我爱你”时，她过度纠结于内心活动，甚至记不起那一刻的真实感受。

For her entire life, Grace Hussar struggled to stay present. She was always a little outside of the moment, and it bothered her. As a fellow extreme overthinker, I have to say I related to this hard. For example, this detail really stuck out to me. Grace told me about how when she was telling her boyfriend she loved him for the first time, she got so in her head about it that she couldn't even remember what it felt like when

他说了那句话。我真希望能回到那一刻，重新感受从他口中听到那些话时的感觉，而不是盯着他颤抖的下巴，不是等待正确的回应或担心错误的回应。我多希望能回到那一刻，单纯地感受那种感觉。

he said it back. I wish I could just go back to that moment and feel what it felt like to hear those words from him instead of watching his chin shake, instead of waiting for the right response or worrying over the wrong response. I I wish I could go back to that moment and just feel that feeling.

这一切的变化始于格蕾丝成为跑者。不是普通的跑者，而是超级马拉松跑者。这是极限耐力跑，31英里，没错，31英里。

All of this started changing when Grace became a runner. And not just any kind of runner, an ultra runner. This is extreme endurance running, 31 miles, hearing that right, 31 miles

甚至更长。她将自己推向极限甚至超越极限。你变成了一头野兽。你成了一个没有身体负担的纯粹物理存在。你只剩下本能的冲动。

or more. She was pushing herself to her limit or beyond it. You become an animal. You become a physical a physical being without the burden of a body. You become just all id.

在她第一次完成超级马拉松后，某些东西被唤醒了。我的身体彻底垮了。我是说，全身上下没有一处完好。但精神上，我从未感到如此充实，从未如此完整。

And after her first ultra marathon, something clicked. My body was my body was fucked. I mean, there was not a part of me that was not just wrecked. But mentally, I had never felt more fulfilled. I had never felt more whole.

格蕾丝意识到，她的身体通过关闭大脑来应对耐力跑的疼痛。她也发现这种感觉很棒。她想要更多——更多疼痛，更少思考。于是她深入挖掘，寻找更多她渴望的那种痛苦。

Grace realized that her body coped with the pain of endurance running by turning her brain off. She also realized that felt good. She wanted more of it. More pain, less thinking. So she dug a little further to find more of the kind of pain she wanted.

这其实是她《现代爱情》文章的标题——《我想要的痛苦》。我特别好奇想和这位两个孩子的母亲聊聊——她拥有幸福的伴侣关系，从事金融行业——关于她如何意识到痛苦是自我照顾的关键。请继续收听。格蕾丝，这恐怕是我在播客里问过嘉宾最有趣的开场问题了：BDSM对你意味着什么？

That's actually the title of her Modern Love essay, The Kind of Pain I Wanted. I was so curious to talk to this mother of two who's in a happy partnership, who has a career in finance, about how she realized that pain was essential to taking care of herself. Stay with us. You know, Grace, this is certainly one of the more fun first questions I've ever asked a guest on the podcast, but I wonder, what does BDSM mean to you?

它对我有多重含义。起初听到BDSM，你会想到乳胶皮革、鞭子锁链、捆绑束缚。但后来你会逐渐认同BDSM关乎控制与释放控制，关乎支配的意义，以及臣服于他人的感受。所以现在当我听到BDSM，立刻想到的是：臣服对我意味着什么？如何在不丧失自主权的前提下让渡权力？从权力重负中解脱又意味着什么？

So it means a lot of different things to me. In the beginning, you hear BDSM and you think of like latex and leather and whips and chains and people getting tied up. But what you sort of learn to identify with BDSM is control and relief of control and and what domination means and and what it feels like to submit to someone. So to me, when I hear the term BDSM, I immediately think of what does submission mean to me and what does it mean to give up power in a way that doesn't cost me my agency? What does it mean to be relieved of of having to carry power?

如果你寻求BDSM关系，你不是想被剥夺控制权，而是想卸下掌控者的重担，摆脱做决定的压力。

If you're seeking out a BDSM relationship, you're not looking to have control taken from you. You're looking to be relieved of the ownership of being in control. You're looking to be relieved of of the pressure of making decisions.

所以在第一次超级马拉松后，你发现很喜欢疼痛对大脑的影响，对吗？

So you realized after this first ultramarathon that you really liked what pain did to your brain. Right?

是的。

Yeah.

你是怎么想到要以其他方式体验疼痛的？

How did you get the idea that you wanted to experience pain in other ways?

你知道，从来没有一个时刻让我觉得‘看啊，我是个受虐狂’。更像是，好吧，我喜欢这个，也喜欢那个，还喜欢这个。

You know, there was never a moment where I was like, look at me. I'm a masochist. Like, it it was more like, okay, I like this thing. Well, I like this thing. I like this.

我喜欢那种感觉。然后某个瞬间你会想，这让我有些解脱。我在想如果推到极致，会不会获得巨大的释放。

I like that. And there's a moment where you're like, this gives me some relief. I wonder if I push it to the extreme, I'll get a ton of relief.

等等，我能在这之前打断一下吗？你的大脑是怎么把这个作为下一步的？就像‘好吧，我喜欢疼痛’。

Wait. Can I can I pause you before this? Like, how was this the next, like, step that your brain took? It's like, okay. Well, I like pain.

有些人可能会想，也许我会尝试极限举重之类的。为什么是BDSM？为什么会是这种特定的事物？

Some people might be like, maybe I'll look into, I don't know, like, extreme weight lifting or something. Like Yeah. Why was it BDSM? Like, how did that specific thing?

超级马拉松跑者都开玩笑说他们是受虐狂。要么这样，要么雇个性工作者来鞭打我，懂我意思吗？

Ultra runners all joke that they're masochists. Okay. You know? It's this or hire a sex worker to whip me. You know what I mean?

人们会开这种玩笑，比如‘如果不跑超级马拉松，我可能就会穿着女式丝袜被绑在地下室之类的地方’。直到——天啊，是什么让我跨过了那道坎？我想是因为我遇到了一位非常棒的按摩师，那是在我开始耐力运动后不久，他手法极其粗暴，真的把我的肌肉折磨得够呛。

Like like, people will make jokes like that. Like like, if not ultra running, then I'd be, you know, wearing women's stockings and and tied up in a basement or something like that. It was never something that that I took too seriously until gosh, what what was like the precipice that I jumped off of? I think what it was is that I had a very good massage therapist, and it was right after I started doing endurance events, and he was extremely rough. Like, I mean, he just really destroyed my muscles.

嗯。他总是开玩笑说他在‘嫩化’我，因为运动后肌肉太紧绷了。他会爬上按摩台，用肘部压进我的背部，疼得我当场哭出来。但感受着肌肉舒展的同时，我的情绪也在释放。我发现自己在这个过程中被他强烈吸引。

Mhmm. And he would always joke that he was tenderizing me because your muscles are, like, so tense afterwards. And he would get up on the table and, like, get on my back and, like, drive his elbow into me, and it was so painful that I would cry while he was doing it. And like feeling the muscles open up, I was opening up emotionally as my muscles were opening up. And I found myself very attracted to him while we were doing this.

每次按摩结束后，我都会处于极度性兴奋的状态

And I would leave those massages and be like so sexually tuned

哇哦。

up Wow.

就像，我当时想，如果有人先揍我一顿再和我发生关系，那不是很棒吗？这样的结局不是很完美吗？我觉得就是这念头引发的。大概在那之后不久，我开始...记不清具体搜了什么，但可能是些糟糕的关键词，比如'痛苦按摩'、'快乐结局'之类蠢话。然后自然就跳转到了FetLife——这个我从未听说过的网站。

That like, I was like, wouldn't it be great if we had this like someone beating me up and then also having sex with me? Like, wouldn't that be a wonderful finish to this? I think that's what did it. I think it was shortly after that that I started just I can't remember what I googled, but it was probably something terrible like painful massage, happy ending, or something stupid like that. Like and of course, it took me to FetLife, which I had never heard of.

给不了解的人解释下，FetLife是什么？

For people who don't know, what is FetLife?

FetLife可以类比为Facebook，是个社交网站，人们在上边聊天。但他们主要讨论各种特殊癖好，并寻找有相同癖好的人建立联系。你开始看到...

So FetLife is a site that one could compare to Facebook. It's a social networking site, and people chat on there. But what they are mostly chatting about is their various kinks, and they're finding other people who have those kinks to connect with. What did you start to see

什么内容？它让你产生什么感受？

on there? And how did it make you feel?

太震撼了，真的令人窒息。就像任何人初次接触那样，你会觉得那些人都是怪胎——'这完全不是我'。你会看到人们处于各种受虐状态：被捆绑、悬吊、锁链禁锢...

It was overwhelming. It was really overwhelming. And like anyone else, you look at that stuff, and you're like, well, those people are freaks. Like, that's not me at all, you know? And you see things like people just being in various states of torture, tied up, strung up, chained to things.

各种令人不适的极端癖好。最初我浏览时觉得：'太变态了，这完全超出我的认知'。我退出了，但后来又回去了。

There's all kinds of kinks that are very hard and hard to look at. And at first, I looked around a little bit and I was like, well, that's freaky and I'm way out of my depth on this. And I logged off and then I went back again.

为什么？为什么又返回？

Why? Why did you return?

因为被迷住了。就像你反常地被某个不符合你审美的人吸引——比如觉得'那个汗津津的男人真恶心'，但越看越觉得...

Because I was fascinated. I don't know. It's kind of like when you're attracted to someone who's not who you're normally attracted to, and you're like, well, that guy's a gross, sweaty man, like, you know, and then, like, you see him more and more, and you're like,

他真的恶心吗？我完全懂你在说什么。

is he though? Really? I know exactly what you're talking about.

对，你会想'其实也没那么糟，之前太矫情了'，然后就会重新审视。嗯。

Yeah. So you you're like, it wasn't that bad. Like, you were just being a baby. Go back and look at it again. Mhmm.

于是你回过头再看时，总有一处细节格外醒目。你会觉得，嗯，我有点喜欢那个部分，你懂吧。

And so you go back and you look at it again, and there's always one thing that sticks out. And you're like, well, I kinda like that, you know.

对你而言那个细节是什么？

What was that for you?

没错。我最早看到的照片之一是个被绳索捆绑的女人，最吸引我的是她身体扭曲在看似极度痛苦的束缚姿势中时，面容却异常安详。双臂双腿都被捆住，悬吊在横梁上，皮肤多处泛着紫痕。但真正打动我的，是你能从她身体状态看出承受着巨大痛苦，而她的脸却如此宁静美丽，仿佛正享受这种体验。

Yeah. So one of the first pictures I saw was a woman tied up, with rope and you know, one of the things that caught my eye was how at peace her face looked while her body was just contorted in what looked to be an incredibly painful predicament bondage. Her arms were tied, her legs were tied, She was hanging from a beam and and her skin was purple in places. But what drew you to the picture, what drew me to the picture, what I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful and so beautiful. And it looked like she was happy to be experiencing that.

她似乎在那痛苦中寻得了平静。我不断回看那张照片，因为那张脸让我卸下心防——你本能反应会是'天啊这太疼了'，但为何她看起来如此快乐？

It looked like she had found peace in in that pain. And I kept coming back to that picture because the face was it disarmed me a bit. Because you want to just see something like that and be like, oh my god, that's so painful. But then why did she look so happy?

详细说说你看着照片时的内心独白。是'我也想尝试'，还是单纯觉得'看起来很...'？多描述下你当时的心理活动。

Tell me more about the inner monologue when you were looking at this picture. Was it like, I wanna do that, or was it just like that looks like yeah. Tell me more about what was your your monologue as you were looking at that photo.

最初想的是'我绝对做不到'，后来变成'她拥有我渴望的那种解脱感'。

At first, it was, I could never do that. And then it was, she looks like she has the kind of relief that I I want.

她拥有你渴望的解脱感，而你可能通过跑步浅尝过类似体验？仅限于跑步吗？

She has the kind of relief that you want and that perhaps you've gotten a taste of through running, it sounds like, in only running?

对。其实每个人多少都接触过BDSM——比如某个男友会说'叫我爸爸'，或是看了《五十度灰》觉得'原来如此'。

Yep. Yeah. I mean, I everyone, I think, at some point dabbles a little bit in BDSM. You get a certain boyfriend who's like, you know, call me daddy, or or you watch 50 Shades of Grey and you're like, oh, that's what it is.

我猜算是玩笑性质的尝试吧。

I'm a joked, I guess. Yeah.

正是。你浅尝辄止后早早认定'这不适合我'。我不想要被掠夺，而是寻求解脱——渴望卸下重负，而非权力博弈。

Yes. Exactly. And so you you sort of dabble in it and you decide early on, this is not for me, you know, I don't like it like that, you know. I'm not looking for someone to take something from me, but I'm looking for relief. I'm looking to be to have my burden lifted instead of have a power struggle, you know?

在那之前，我对BDSM的所有认知就是你要把控制权交给别人，让别人来支配你。而在我看来——取决于你问谁——我是个有点强势的人，喜欢掌控局面。所以我一直无法理解怎么能放弃这种控制权，怎么能如此信任一个人。正是这些早期照片让我明白，那些被束缚的人并非受人操控，而是从负担中得到了解脱。

And everything I had known about BDSM up to that point was that you were giving someone else control and someone was going to control you. And from my perspective, I'm someone who's very domineering a little bit, depending on who you ask. I am a person who likes to be in control. And so I could never wrap my brain around how you give that up and how you trust someone that much, and it was these early pictures that sort of helped me see that these people who are tied, someone wasn't controlling them. They were being relieved of their burden.

对某件事产生兴趣是一回事，但真正着手尝试参与其中当然又是另一回事了。说说你当时是怎么创建个人资料的？

Being intrigued by something, right, is one thing, but actually kind of setting out to try to get involved in in that thing and, you know, is another, of course. Tell me about how did you make a profile at this point?

我访问了好几次后才创建资料，刚开始只是参与一些话题的小讨论。

It took me a couple of visits before I made a profile, and I started just joining in these little chats about things.

你都问了哪些问题？或者说你们聊些什么内容？

What kinds of questions were you asking, or or or what were you talking about?

怎么找到愿意这样做的人？怎么确定可以信任对方？有没有人担心会被谋杀？就是...你们怎么做到的？做这种事时脑子里在想什么？

How do I find someone who will do this? How do I know that I can trust someone? Does anybody else worry about getting murdered? You know, I mean, how do you do this? What happens in your brain when you do this?

比如会疼吗？事后会后悔吗？诸如此类的问题。

Like, you know, does it hurt? Do you regret it? All those questions.

有人给你解答吗？

And did people come to you with answers?

当然有。社群里的成员，尤其是Kin社区的，他们特别热衷讨论这个，因为BDSM被太多人误解了。可能很多旁观者只觉得'啊这些人都是变态'。所以他们很珍惜机会来展现自己只是过着正常生活的普通人，恰好有这种特殊性癖好。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. People in the community, in the Kin community particularly, they love talking about it because it is so misunderstood, and probably a lot of people who look at it just are like, oh, those people are freaks. And so they welcome the opportunity to be seen as like people with normal lives who do this one sexual thing, you know?

所以你现在有了资料，逐渐了解这个世界，也得到了各种问题的答案。

So you have this profile. You're getting all these you're learning more about this world. You're getting these questions answered.

你遇到了谁？最早联系我的人之一是彼得，他当时在圈内很受欢迎。部分原因有两点：第一，他从不给人压力，只是自我介绍后就让事情自然发展。

Who did you meet? So one of the first people that reached out to me was Peter, and he was very popular in the scene at the time. And part of the reason for that was twofold. Number one, he did not put any pressure on people. He just kinda introduced himself and let things fall where it will.

而其他人可能会说，我不但要绑住你，还要对你做各种疯狂的事，天啊，你的私处感觉会超棒。他们简直像在给你写色情小说，而彼得更像是说，这是我对我们的设想，有兴趣的话告诉我。

Whereas everyone else would be like, not only am I gonna tie you up, but then I'm gonna do all these, you know, crazy things to you and oh my god, your pussy is gonna feel amazing. Like, they would really just write you this erotic essay, you know, whereas Peter was kinda like, this is what I have in mind for us. Let me know if you're interested.

然后

And

所以他在我加入Fedlife后不久，大概几周后给我发了消息。那时我已经上传了几张自己的照片，让大家知道他们面对的是什么样的人。我记得他写道——具体措辞记不清了——大意是：我正在扩充我想捆绑的体型类型，而你属于我雷达上那个体型范围的人。我的身材比较丰满。

so he sent me a message not long after I joined Fedlife, maybe like a couple of weeks. And by this time, I had put a couple of pictures of myself up just to kind of give people the idea of what they were dealing with. And, I remember he wrote to me that he was I can't remember how he phrased it. It was like, I am enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie, and you are on my radar as someone who is in in that that spectrum of bodies. And I am a bit fuller.

我大概是12到14码。所以对我来说，这种诚实和透明很特别——他没有说'你好性感，我想占有你'之类的话，而是说'你的体型在这些照片里不常见，我想学习如何捆绑这种体型'。这让我卸下了防备。

I'm like maybe a size twelve, fourteen. And so for me, that honesty, that transparency where he wasn't like, you're so hot. I wanna get my hands on you. He was kinda like, you have a body type that you don't see in these pictures a lot, and I would like to learn how to tie that body. And it disarmed me.

我感觉这不是复制粘贴的套话。他真的在看见我，看见我的身体，看见我的需求。

I felt like it wasn't just a copy and pasted message. He was actually seeing me and seeing my body and seeing what I wanted.

他发的这条消息因其透明性让你感到安心，同时在我看来——可能用词不当——但几乎像公事公办或有点...临床式的语气。是的。也许这也让你觉得'好吧'。

He sends you this message, which was comforting to you because of its transparency, and also to me sounds quite maybe this is the wrong word, but almost like business like or like Yeah. A little clinically. Yeah. Which is which Yes. Maybe also was kind of like, okay.

比起其他人可能更花哨或夸张的信息，这家伙的措辞听起来直截了当。

This guy has like his as opposed to maybe the more florid or over the top, it sounds like messages from other people, like this was to the point.

没错。我特别被这种临床式的诚实吸引。这让我感到安全。

Yeah. I was very attracted to that, like just clinical, you know, honesty. Like, it it felt it made me feel safe.

你怎么回应的？等等，抱歉，在那之前——他的个人资料给你什么印象？你被吸引了吗？

How did you respond? And also, wait. Sorry. Even before that, what did his profile look like to you? Were you drawn in?

他的资料页太疯狂了。有几百张照片——他绑过男人、女人、胖子、瘦子、各种族裔的人。我记得收到消息后点开他主页时心想：天啊我应付不来，因为那些被绑的人姿势各异，看着都疼。

His profile was insane. He had hundreds of pictures on there. And he tied men, women, you know, I mean, fat people, skinny people, you know, every race. He had hundreds of pictures on there. I remember I clicked on his profile after he messaged me and I was like, oh my god, I'm not up for this because the people were tied in all different ways and it was painful looking.

当我看到它时，我的反应是，不行。

And when I saw it, I was like, no.

听起来这对你来说有点超出界限了。嗯。你是怎么从‘我完全不懂这个，我觉得我做不到’转变到‘也许我该回复’的？这个过程是怎么发生的？

It seems like it was pushing the envelope for for you. Yeah. How did you go from being like, I'm out of my depth here. I don't think I can do this to being like, maybe I should reply. Like, how did that how did that work?

其实这正好说明我当时对网络约会和线上邂逅还很陌生——现在的话，收到这种信息和照片我肯定会直接拒绝。但那时候我还试图回复每一条消息。所以我想，虽然不会和这个人发展什么，但出于礼貌还是该告诉他自己没兴趣。于是我回复说：‘你看起来很棒，我也很喜欢你的信息，但这种程度的特殊性癖好目前超出了我的接受范围，我还没准备好。’按照网上其他男性的反应，我本以为他会回骂‘去死吧贱货’。

Well, this is how you know I was like new to like online dating and online encounters is because now, like, I would get a message like that and see those pictures and be like, oh, no, not for me. But then, I was still trying to like reply to every message I got. And so I was like, well, I'm not gonna, know, connect with this guy, but I'll do the polite thing and tell him I'm not interested. And so I sent him a message back and I was like, you know, you seem really great and I and I I really enjoyed your message, but I think that this depth of kink is a little out of my frame of reference right now, and I I don't think I'm ready for that. And I expected based on like other men on the Internet for him to be like, you know, well fuck you bitch.

或者像那些被拒绝的男人常对女人说的‘肥猪婊子’之类的话。但他非常友善，他说：‘作为新手你可能不明白，其实是由你来设定界限的。如果这个程度太深，你可以告诉我你的接受范围，我们从那里开始。’

You're a fat ass whore or whatever men always say to women who reject them. But he was very nice and he was like, you know, perhaps being new, you don't understand that like you are the one setting the parameter. So if that's out of your depth, tell me what's in your depth and and we'll start there.

他的意思是，提醒一下，掌控权其实在你手里。

He's saying, you know, just FYI, you'd be the one who'd be in control.

没错。这个观点完全颠覆了我的认知。BDSM最让我恐惧的就是失去控制权，而他居然说‘其实你才是掌控者，我只是执行你的指令’。

Yeah. And that kind of blew my mind. And so, of course, like, my biggest fear with BDSM was was giving up control. And so for him to respond, actually, you're the one in control. Like, I'm just doing what you tell me to do.

我当即回复：‘好吧，你想在哪里见面？’当然措辞很礼貌：‘这个提议很有趣，要不要当面详谈？’

I was like, okay, where do you wanna meet? I was like I mean, I sent it back very nicely. I was like, okay. This intrigues me. Like, would you like to talk more in person?

我对这个领域了解不多，但知道这类情境中明确同意非常重要。你们开始实践前具体沟通过哪些内容？

I don't know a lot about this world, but I do know that a big part of kink is explicit consent in these kinds of scenarios. Like, tell me about what kind of conversation you two had before you started doing anything.

当他提议当面沟通时，我爽快答应了。由于太缺乏经验，我完全没预料到答应见面后他会发来那么多信息。他要了我的电话号码。

Yeah. When he messaged me, you know, like, okay, can we have this conversation in person? I was like, okay, yeah, no problem. And I was so new that I I wasn't expecting the amount of information I got after I said, okay, let's meet up. And he asked me for my phone number.

他先问：‘给电话号码会让你不适吗？’我说不会，发过去后立刻收到一连串带附件的短信，详细描述了他喜欢的项目（当然每个都标注了可选项）。他偏好将束缚对象裸体绑缚，这样能更清楚地观察绳索位置。

He was like, are you comfortable giving your phone number? I said, yes. I sent him my phone number. And immediately after, I got text after text after text of, like, attachments, and they were descriptions of things that he enjoyed doing and, of course, like, the option to opt out of any of those things. And his preference was to tie rope bottoms naked so that he could better see the placement of the rope.

然后有一张人体示意图，你需要把他可以触碰的身体部位涂成绿色，不能触碰的部位涂成红色。接着还有大约二三十个关于创伤区域的问题。作为一个青少年，我曾多次被自己信任的成年人侵犯。那种活在当下的能力，我被那次经历剥夺了，我学到的是性是你忍受的东西，而不是你参与的东西。它是别人对你做的事，而不是你享受的事，明白吗？

And then there was a diagram of a body, and you had to color any part of the body green that he was allowed to touch and any part of the body red that he wasn't allowed to touch. And then there were maybe 20 or 30 questions about areas of trauma. And as an adolescent, I was assaulted by by an adult that I trusted several times. So that ability to like stay in the moment, I was robbed of that by that experience, and I learned that like sex is something you tolerate and not something you participate in. And it's something that's done to you and not something you enjoy, you know?

所以找到那种平衡，对我来说走这条线，这是一条艰难争取的道路。就像一场超级马拉松。

And and so finding that balance and and walking that line for me, it it's been a it's been a hard fought path. It's been an ultramarathon.

我认为这是一个非常重要的框架，解释了为什么拥有控制权，同时又能以一种仍然保持权力的方式释放控制权对你如此重要。所以我真的很感激

It's a really important framing, I think, for why having control and also being able to to to release control in a way that still keeps the power with you is so important to you. So I really appreciate

这一点。绝对如此。对我来说，重新获得权力的一部分是承认我有享受性爱的权利，我有探索性的权利。我记得上面有一个问题，大概是‘我希望从我的遭遇中感受到什么’，你需要填空。

that. Absolutely. Part of, for me, reclaiming my power was acknowledging that I have permission to enjoy sexuality, and I have permission to explore sexuality. And it was like, I remember there was a question on there that was like, I hope to feel like blank from my encounter and you had to fill it in.

你填了什么？

What did you put?

我想我填的是，我希望在与你的相遇中感到在场。哇。所以我们完成了所有的文书工作。我立刻寄了回去，我们计划在一家咖啡馆见面。他说，通常，让你知道，我会选一个离我近的地方，这样如果我们合得来，你想尝试什么，我们可以回我的地方试试。

I think I put, I want to feel present for my encounter with you. Wow. So so we we did all the paperwork. I sent it back right away, and we made a plan to meet up at a cafe. And he was like, normally, just so you know, I try to pick a place near me so that if we hit it off and you want to try something, we can go back to my place and and try it.

再次，这种透明真的吸引了我。真的，你知道，他不是那种说‘第一次见面什么都不会发生，别抱太大希望’之类的话。所以我想，好吧，我对这个持开放态度，你知道，我们选一个我时间多一点的日子。所以我确保我有一个下午没有孩子，一切都安排好了，可以花几个小时做这件事。

And again, the transparency really drew me in. I really was like, you know, it wasn't like he was like, nothing's gonna happen on this first meetup, like, don't get your hopes up, yada yada yada. And so, I was like, okay, I'm open to that, you know, let's pick a day where I have a little bit more time. And so, I made sure that like I had a kid free afternoon and and everything was was in order for me to spend a few hours doing that.

所以你在咖啡馆见到他。告诉我你的第一印象。

So you see him at the cafe. Tell me about your first impression.

他非常有魅力。我记得我经常看他的手，因为他有非常大、看起来很强壮的手，我记得在照片中看到过。在那个记忆中，对我来说有很多零碎的图像，但没有很多对话。我的大脑有点像，谁在乎他说什么？你知道？他会说所有正确的话。

He was so attractive. And I remember looking at his hands a lot because he has like really big, strong looking hands and I I remember seeing them in the pictures and and I there were a lot of fractional images in that memory for me, but not a lot of conversation. Like, my brain was kind of like, who cares what he has to say? You know? He's gonna say all the right things.

我会说所有正确的话，你知道？

I'm gonna say all the right things, you know?

而我正盯着那双手看。

And I'm looking at those hands.

是啊。当你做这种事时，你极度依赖动物本能来指引方向。如果感到害怕，你就知道不对劲。如果对他没感觉——我是说，我们又不是要共度余生，我们都没在约会。

Yeah. When you're doing something like this, you're you're relying so heavily on, like, your animal instincts to tell you what to do, you know? Because if you're afraid, you know it's not right. If you're not attracted to him I mean, we're not we weren't building a life together. We weren't dating.

所以归根结底，这就像人性最底层的交易。比如，我信任他吗？我被他吸引吗？没那么多复杂问题。不需要知道他职业，也不用了解他和前妻的关系如何。

And so, it all came down to the bargain basement floor of, like, humanity. Like, do I trust him? Do I feel attracted to him? There weren't a lot of questions. It wasn't like I had to, you know, know what he did for a living or, you know, what was your relationship with your ex wife like?

更多是动物本能在主导。大概最初五分钟内，我就明白了：够了。够了？就是瞬间确定我会继续。他问'想离开这儿吗？'

Like, it was a lot of animal instincts. And within minutes, probably within the first five minutes, I was like, okay, I've had enough. Had enough? Like I just knew I would go through with it. He was like, you wanna get out of here?

我说'好'。

And I was like, yeah.

稍后继续。现在详细说说后续——你们离开后，听起来是开车去了他家？

We'll be right back. And now take me through, you know, everything that happens next. So you you get out of there, you drive, it sounds like, to his house.

对。有趣的是我当时太紧张，完全不记得那段路程。记不清具体步骤，就像记不住数学公式那样。

Yeah. So, you know what's funny is, like, I was so nervous that I I don't remember that that trip. I don't remember, you know, a plus b. I don't remember the steps. Yeah.

只记得在咖啡馆做了'这可行'的决定，接着突然清醒时，我已经站在他绳缚室的框架下了。

I remember we were in the cafe, and I made the decision that, like, this could work. And then the next thing I know, my brain is turning on, and I'm, like, standing under the, like, a frame in his rope room.

描述下那个绳缚室的样子。

Describe that room for me, this rope room.

他公寓挺普通，两居室格局正常。但有个房间装着类似秋千架的金属框架——就是儿童游乐场那种，不过没有秋千之类的配件。

So he has a fairly normal condo. It looks fine, and it's just like a two bedroom condo. And then in one of the rooms, there is like a frame from like a swing set, you know, like a children's swing set. Yeah. But without any of the swings or anything.

那只是个框架。框架的一端挂着几种绳子和一个绳袋，还有一盏小小的电子蜡烛垂下来。而框架的另一端则是一把极大、极锋利的刀和一把剪刀。我看到那把刀时，记得觉得奇怪，但并不害怕。

It's just a frame for it. And on one end of the frame is like types of rope and a rope bag and there's like a little electric candle hanging down. And then on the other end of the frame is a extremely large, extremely sharp knife and a pair of scissors. And I saw the knife, and I remember thinking it was weird. I wasn't scared.

为了明确一下，那把刀和剪刀是用来...

And and just to be clear, that knife and the scissors are for are for

什么？应急用的。比如，如果你绑住某人，他们的指尖失去知觉，或者腿发麻，可能会发生各种紧急情况。当然，你在进行边缘性行为时——那房间里不只用绳子——所以必须有个应急方案。

what? Emergencies. So if, for instance, you tie someone and they lose feeling in their fingertips, or if, for instance, you know, their leg goes numb, there's all kinds of emergencies that could happen. And of course, you're dealing with edge play, you know, and and rope wasn't the only thing he did in that room. And so there had to be a contingency plan.

有意思。你的直觉是对的。这些不像武器，更像是...安全装置。

It's interesting. Your instincts were right. These weren't like weapons. These were Yeah. Safety mechanisms.

是啊，真有趣。你内心有某种...被验证的感觉。对，对。

Yeah. So interesting. You have something in you So validated. Yeah. Yeah.

我是说，你在那个房间里...我只是好奇，当时他放音乐了吗？是安静的？能听到外界的声音吗？那是个与世隔绝的空间吗？

I mean, you're in this room. I mean, I'm just just to like, was this was he playing music? Was it silent? Could you hear anything of the outside world? Was it its own bubble?

比如

Like

绝对不是封闭空间。我能听到外面的声音，车流、鸟鸣，他家外面有棵大树。好笑的是，他准备了个播放列表，我们还开玩笑说那是他的地牢歌单——恩雅之类的音乐，各种...完全就是...你知道，像谁都能卖的那种？

It was not its own bubble for sure. I could hear things outside, you know, traffic, the birds, there's a big tree outside of his house. And it was funny, we were joking because he queued up like a playlist and it was like I was joking that it's his dungeon playlist. It's like Enya and like all kinds of like Totally. You know, like, who can sell?

他的目标——他之前稍微跟我提过——是通过让我不适来把我从思绪中拉出来。哇。所以进房间后他说：你要站在那个框架下，我来帮你脱衣，然后我要观察...

So like his goal, and he had prepared me for this a little bit, was to get me out of my head by making me uncomfortable. Wow. And so when we got to the room, he was like, you're gonna stand under that frame and I'm gonna undress you and then I'm gonna look

你的身体。你心里在想什么？身体有什么反应？

at your body. What's happening in your mind? What's happening in your body?

我对那个房间的记忆是碎片化的。我记得当时自己站在门框下，他坐在沙发上就那么盯着我看。我本来就不太习惯眼神接触，所以被这样直视感觉非常不安，那种压迫感很强烈。

So I remember what happened in that room in snapshots. I remember it being very fractional. And so I stood under the the frame, and he sat on the couch and he just looked at me. And, like, I am not someone who's super comfortable with eye contact, and so it felt very disconcerting to just be stared at. It's intense.

我能感觉到他正在纯粹地审视我的身体。你知道，当你在网上认识的人见面时——尤其涉及性意味时——你会刻意展现最具吸引力的形象。比如穿上这条裙子，戴上聚拢效果好的胸罩，都是在塑造你想被看待的形象。

I got the sense that he was just, like, perceiving my body as it was. You know, because when you meet someone off the Internet, especially when there's a sexual component, you present your body in a way that you feel is the most attractive. Like, I'm going to wear this dress. I'm going to wear the good push up bra. Like, you're you're creating a picture of how you wanna be perceived.

但当你只是站在那里，允许自己作为一个纯粹的身体存在时，会感到异常脆弱。

But when you just stand there and and you allow yourself the ability to be a body, it can feel very vulnerable.

你大脑是不是在疯狂运转？比如他在怎么评价我，诸如此类的念头？

Is your brain going into overdrive? Like, this is what he's thinking about me. This is, you know Yeah.

当然。比如'他肯定在想这个'、'他后悔了'、'他到底要干嘛'、'还要多久'，甚至'四点还得接孩子'——所有念头都在催促快点结束，就像这只是待办事项之一。

Oh, yeah. Like, oh, he's thinking this. He's regretting this. Like, what is he doing? How long is this gonna take?

而他恰恰希望这不是你待办清单里的一项。他的全部意图就是让这成为你当下唯一专注的事——别把我当成任务清单里的条目。

I have to pick up the kids by four. Like, all the thoughts are coming, like hurry up, get it done, you know, this is another thing I'm doing today. And his his whole goal was for it to not be another thing I'm doing today. His whole goal was this is the thing you're doing. So don't add me to your to do list.

后来发生了什么？你什么时候停止胡思乱想的？

What happened and at what point did your brain stop?

突然他站起来，先脱掉了我的毛衣。我记得自己还下意识耸肩膀配合，结果他把手按在我胸口说：别帮忙。

Yeah. So all of a sudden, he stood up and first he took my sweater off. And I remember I was kind of like moving my shoulders to like help him get it off and he put his hand on on my like chest and he said, don't help me.

哇哦。

Woah.

我当时就懵了。因为我习惯性就会帮别人——社会规训不就是教你要尽可能让别人容易喜欢你吗？

And I remember being like, oh shit. Like because all I do is help people. Right? Like, that's what you do. You're socially conditioned to like make it as easy as possible for someone to love you.

所以别帮我，这反而让我更专注于当下。于是他脱掉我的毛衣，接着解开我的衬衫纽扣，然后，你知道的，我就那样站着，上身赤裸。他绕着我走了一圈，然后解开了我的胸罩，再褪下我的裙子。直到衣物被一件件剥离，你才意识到自己穿了多少层。最后，我赤身裸体站在柱子下，本能不是遮掩，而是尽量展现身体曲线——弓起背，侧转髋部。当他的手搭上我的臀部说‘别动’时，我就那样僵立着。

So don't help me, it brought me into the moment. And so he took my sweater off and then he unbuttoned my shirt and then, you know, I was standing there without a shirt and he walked around me and then he took my bra off and then he took my skirt down like I you don't realize how many layers of clothes you're wearing until they're being taken off one by one by one. Eventually, we got to the point where I was just standing under the post, not wearing anything, and your instinct is to not cover yourself, but kind of like make your body look the best, you know. So you you arch your back, you turn your hip out, and he put his hand on my butt and he said, stop. Like, just stand there.

于是我静止不动地站着，他抬起我的手臂，双手扶住我的腰际。那触感仿佛在丈量我的身体——估算需要多少绳索，探测柔软部位与肌肉线条。当他说‘跪下’时，我心想完了，他连绳子都不用，该不会是要我给他口交之类的吧。

And so I I did stop and I just stood there and he lifted my arms up and he kind of put his hands on my waist. It felt like he was like gauging my body, like how much rope will I need, what are the soft parts, where are the muscles, you know, and he said, get on your knees. And I thought, oh, fuck. Like, he's not even gonna use the rope. He's just gonna make me give him a blowjob or something.

嗯。我跪下来后，他却转身走出房间，我顿时慌了神。嗯。等他回来时拿着根竹竿。其实在这之前，他曾向我展示过三种不同的绳子。

Mhmm. And so I got on my knees and he turned around and like walked out of the room and I was like, oh, shit. Mhmm. And he came back with this bamboo pole. And before we had gotten to this point, he had held three different kinds of rope out in front of me.

一种是彩色软麻绳，一种是硬质伞绳状的粗粝绳索，还有种像带刺铁丝网般的椰壳纤维绳。他说‘你自己选’，我看着彩色绳子觉得挺可爱。

And one was this like cushy hemp like colored rope. One was this like very hard bristly like paracord looking rope. And one was this spiky coconut rope that looked kinda like barbed wire. And he was like, you pick what you want. And so, like, I looked at the colored rope and I thought, oh, that's cute.

而伞绳看起来太人造了。但椰壳绳才像真正的绳索——那种看起来就会让人疼的质感。我选了椰壳绳，他一副‘果然如此’的表情。

And I looked at the paracord and I was like, that looks too artificial. But the coconut rope looked like rope. It looked like it looked like it would hurt. And I picked the coconut rope and he was like, of course you do.

最疼的那种。这还需要犹豫吗？不，完全没有。所以你选好了绳子。

Most painful one. Did you even have to think about it? No. I didn't. So you've chosen the rope.

他离开房间，带着竹竿回来。然后呢？

He leaves the room. He comes back with the bamboo pole. Then then what?

等我反应过来时，已趴在地板上，他正把我的腿绑在竹竿上。我自觉将双手背在身后被他捆住——还算手下留情，但腿部束缚实在难熬。

The next thing I know, I was laying on my stomach on the floor, and he was tying my legs to the bamboo pole. And I I had put my arms behind my back, and he had tied my arms behind them, not as bad as it could be. He was kind of taking it easy on me, but the legs were really bad.

你说的难熬是指...疼痛？对，就是疼。

And And by bad, you mean like painful? Painful.

没错，那是种考验。我记得自己最终放弃抵抗，完全沉浸在痛感中。看那些绳缚照片时，每个人脸上都带着圣洁般的表情，你会以为他们从中获得解脱，就像被重力毯包裹着那样舒适。

Yeah. It was challenging. It's a challenge. And I remember letting go and just being in the pain because when you look at the pictures of rope, you everyone looks their face looks so beatific, you know, and and you think they're getting this relief from it. It probably feels like like a weighted blanket or something.

那感觉像被紧紧勒住，一个非常紧的拥抱，但极其痛苦。可能是我选的绳子导致的，所以特别疼，天啊，疼得要命。就像血管被压迫，小时候把橡皮筋绕在手指上的那种感觉。

It feels like a constriction, a very tight hug, but it is it's incredibly painful. And it could have been the rope I picked that that could be why it was so particularly painful, but it, oh my god, it hurts so bad. Like, the blood vessels were like I mean, it's like when you were a little kid and you would put a rubber band around your finger.

完全理解。我也是这么想的。

Totally. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah.

对。你会突然觉得'天哪，这比预想中疼得快多了'。当他开始把我的腿绑在柱子上打结时，我就意识到疼痛来得比预期猛烈得多。本以为会更性感些，结果根本不是。

Yeah. And you'd be like, oh my gosh, that hurt very much quicker than I thought it would. So it was like as soon as he started tying my legs to the post and he was like making the links, I was like, I need to get in to the pain a lot quicker than I expected. Like, thought it would be sexier, you know? But it was not.

当他把我的腿绑在柱子上、手臂反剪背后后，他开始在架子上打环套，想把我的腿抬得高过头顶。这时如果双腿已经剧痛，再被抬高，血液本就难以流向腿部，然后全部涌向——

And after he had tied my legs to the pole and my arms were behind my back, he started making a loop to the frame so that he could lift my legs higher than my head, which if your legs are already in a lot of pain and then they're lifted up, the blood is already having trouble getting to your legs, and then it all rushes to

你的头部。

your head.

更加剧烈了。

It was even more intense.

没错。你会头晕目眩。他做完这些后，血液直冲脑门让我晕乎乎的，他却坐到沙发上观察了我一会儿。可能察觉到我状态不对，他过来趴在我面前，脸对着脸。眼神接触强迫我保持清醒，把我拉回当下——现在我才明白他的用意。

Yeah. And so you get really lightheaded. And so after he did that, and the blood was all rushing to my head and I felt really lightheaded, he went and sat on the couch and like watched me for a minute, and he must have sensed that I was not doing well because he came and got on the floor with me and he put his face in front of my face, and he the eye contact necessitated that I stay in the moment. The eye contact brought me back. And I realize now that that's what he was doing.

他在说'你要直面此刻的不适'。他想让我感受疼痛。于是我睁开眼睛，我们几乎鼻尖相触，他说'你了解自己的身体，作为运动员，你会知道什么时候该——'

He was saying, you're gonna be in this moment and be uncomfortable with that. And he wanted me to feel the pain. And so I did. I opened my eyes and we were just kind of nose to nose, and he said, you'll know if you're listening to your body, you're an athlete, you'll know when it's time to

解脱束缚。你是怎么判断时机的？身体或大脑发出了什么信号？

take it off. And how did you know when it was time? What was the the flag your body or your brain sent up?

我感觉到脚趾发麻，就像腿麻时那种不适但不至于疼痛。作为运动员，你习惯随时感知身体，分辨疼痛是潜在危险的预警还是现状。你不断评估：'现在很痛但还没到危险程度'。直到某刻疼痛性质突变，你就立刻知道'不行了'。

So I felt my toes getting numb, and it's kind of like when your foot has fallen asleep and it it's uncomfortable, but it's not painful. And as an athlete, you get accustomed to checking in with your body and figuring out whether pain is an alert of like trouble that's coming or trouble that's there. And so you're checking in and you're checking in, you're saying this is painful, but trouble's not here yet. And then all of a sudden, the pain changes and you're like, oh, yeah. No.

这不对。这不对。那已不再是你能承受的痛苦。太过分了。

This is not right. This is not right. It's not pain that you can get inside of anymore. It's too much.

后来发生了什么？你告诉他了吗？你是怎么...你是怎么发出信号的

So then what happened? Did you tell him? How did you how did you signal

于是我看着他，他说够了，我说是的。他就解开了绳子。当绳索从你身上卸下时，就像整个身体都在呼气。就像，你一直处于极度不适的束缚中，然后突然解脱，绳子脱落的速度比绑上时快得多。绑上去要花很久，但松开时，你整个身体就像...那感觉就像你能想象到的最深沉的叹息。

to the So I looked at him and he said enough, and I said, yeah. And he just untied it. And when you get rope taken off of your body, it's like your whole body exhales. Like, you're in such an uncomfortable restriction, and then it's removed, and the rope comes off a lot faster than it goes on. It takes forever to get it on, and then it's loosened, and your whole body just goes like And it's like the deepest sigh you can imagine.

仿佛身体的每个部分都在叹息。你的神经突触都在呼气。

It's like a sigh from every part of your body. It just your synapses just exhale.

你现在对他、对你自己是什么感觉？

How are you feeling towards him, towards yourself?

你会变得非常...该怎么说？当你承受巨大痛苦时有人释放了你，你会对他们心怀感激。而当有人带你穿越痛苦时，这种感激里会掺杂着某种性意味。所以我感到非常安全。我感觉被照顾得很好。

You get very what's the right word? When you're in a lot of pain and someone releases you, you are grateful to them. And when someone is walking you through the pain, there's a kind of sexuality in that gratitude. And so I felt very safe. I felt taken care of.

我感到一股巨大的信任与爱的浪潮，就是...谢谢你。谢谢。真的谢谢。尽管是他绑住了我，尽管他算是痛苦的始作俑者，我却涌起这种压倒性的感激，这让我想与他亲密，想继续下去。在此之前我们的互动都非常临床化。

I felt just this enormous like tidal wave of like trust and love and just, you know, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And even though he had been the one to tie me up and even though he had been sort of the impetus for the pain, like, I had felt this crushing sense of gratitude and it made me want to be intimate with him and it it made me want to keep going. And up until this point, our interactions had been very clinical.

就像我是个身体，而他是双手。直到他看出我确实精疲力竭时，我们之间才重新有了性张力。我们重新变回了人，不再是身体和手的组合。我是个疲惫不堪的人，而他是个感受到被需要被重视的人。于是我们互相吸引。

Like, I was a body and he was hands. And it wasn't until he could see that I was actually exhausted that the sexuality came back to both of us. Like, we became people again and not bodies and hands. I was an exhausted person, and he was a person who felt needed and valued. And so then we were attracted to each other.

不像约会时我们会先亲热再看情况发展。当时我精疲力尽地躺在地板上，他开始用手按摩我的身体。然后他拿出按摩棒让我达到高潮。事情就这样发展下去，我们最终发生了关系。

It wasn't like a date where we would, like, make out and then see what happens. Yeah. You know, like I was laying on the floor exhausted and he started just like sort of massaging my body with his hands. And then he took out a vibrator and he, you know, gave me an orgasm. Things sort of progressed from there and we we did have sex with each other.

但整个过程很像我说过的按摩体验——我处于非常脆弱的状态，正因为这种脆弱而全然活在当下，感觉像是掌控着一切。

But it was very kinda like the massage that I talked about where it was like I was very broken and kind of just present in the moment because of that brokenness, and it felt like I was in control.

我是说，关于绳艺主导方与顺从方之间的这种动态关系，我觉得很有意思。掌控权并非全在绳艺师手中。我们讨论过绳艺顺从方其实也在主动选择交出控制权。这问题问得有点绕，但当你被绑着时，甚至绑缚后发生亲密关系时，你是否觉得自己仍保有掌控感？

I mean, it it is interesting to me what we said about how this dynamic between rope tops and rope bottoms, let's say. It's not just the rope top who's in control. We talked about how the rope bottom is also sort of making the active choice to give control over. Is kind of a windy way of asking this question, but, you know, when you were tied or or even when you were having sex and being intimate after the tying, like, did you feel in control?

百分之百有。从未有过性爱是发生在我身上的被动体验——鉴于我的创伤经历，我一直刻意避免这种状态。我原本很担心绑缚结束后，自己会因体力透支让他有机可乘，演变成'我为你做了这个，现在你该回报我'的性交易。

Oh, a 100%. There was not ever a moment where it felt like sex was something that was happening to me, which like because of my trauma history, I had been very intentional about how sex is not something that happens to me. And I was very afraid that after the rope, I would be so physically spent that he would just take advantage of me and we would just have sex, you know? And he would be like, I did this thing for you. Now you do this thing for me.

交易性质。对，对。

Transactional. Yeah. Yeah.

完全不是那样。始终是我在界定哪些行为可以接受，哪些不行。这不是施加在我身体上的行为，而是我们共同参与的事。

Exactly. It was not like that at all. I was the person saying what was okay and what was not okay. And it was never something that was being done to my body. It was something that we were doing together.

这点真的很关键需要强调。喊停或继续的主动权在你，而且是你主动希望在绑缚结束后通过性爱延续亲密关系。

It's really, I think, important to to underline that. You were the one to say stop or go, you know, like and and you were actively wanting to continue intimacy by having sex after this session.

没错。

Yeah.

当你们结束那场绑缚，你离开他家时——就像你描述的能听见窗外鸟鸣的房间——离开芝加哥某间普通公寓，坐回自己车里...

At the end of that session, you're leaving his home. I'm just trying to it's you know, you described the the room, like, you can hear the birds outside. And it is one of these things where, like, you leave this random condo in Chicago. Right? And you, like, get back into your car, like Yeah.

有趣的是疼痛消失后，日常思绪就回来了。记得性爱进行到一半时，我开始盘算：看手表会显得刻意吗？晚饭该做什么？腿疼得厉害，实在不想下厨。这附近有什么餐厅？刚才是不是看到鸡肉促销的招牌？脑子里全是要处理的琐事。

Well, it's funny like once the pain stops, the thoughts come back. And so I remember like we had had sex and it was like probably maybe halfway through the sex act where I started thinking, you know, is it gonna be obvious if I look at my watch? And like, what am I gonna make for dinner? Like, I'm exhausted. My legs hurt.

盘算着晚餐哪里解决，附近有什么选择，刚才是否看到鸡肉促销的招牌——各种待办事项开始在脑海里翻涌。

Like, I do not wanna go home and like cook dinner. And where can I get dinner? And what's around here? And did I see a sign that said chicken on sale? Like, you know, I started mentally tabulating what I had to do.

疼痛消退的瞬间，这些念头就回来了。话说你们怎么判定这次绑缚正式结束的？他高潮了？好吧，这就说得通了。

The second the pain subsides, those thoughts come back. I mean, tell me, how did you know when this session was, like, officially done? He came. Okay. There you go.

没有比这更隐喻的了。好吧。就这样吧。

There's nothing more metaphorical. Okay. There you go.

我是说，我们本来没打算要依偎什么的，当时我们已经完成了绳索环节，两个人都很累，我已经高潮了几次。他是那种会花时间确保我完全满足、彻底放松的人，让我体验每一种可能的痛感、快感、经历和不适。我当时就像一滩水。然后他说现在他可以高潮了，接着他就这么做了。之后他伸手扶我起来，我们拥抱了一下，我穿好衣服，他走出房间。我走进客厅时他正坐着喝咖啡，我过去拥抱他说谢谢。

I mean, I we weren't gonna, like, snuggle, like, I mean, it was like, we had done the rope, we were we were both tired, I had come several times, you know, and he is someone who really takes his time and makes sure that, like, I am fully satisfied and fully, you know, just laid out, like, that I have eked out every, you know, pain, pleasure, experience, discomfort that I can. And I was just a puddle. And so he was like, okay, now I can come. And then he did and then, you know, he gave me his hand and he helped me up and we hugged each other and I got dressed and he stepped out of the room. And then I went into his living room where he was sitting down like drinking coffee And I gave him a hug and I was like, thank you.

他说这次真的很棒，下次再约。我说好的，当然可以。

And he was like, this was really great. Let's do it again. I was like, okay. Yeah. For sure.

然后我就离开了。

And then I left.

你还想再来一次吗？

Did you wanna do it again?

想啊，当时进行的时候就想再来。是的，没错。

Yeah. I wanted to do it again while I was doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

你回家后重新面对现实世界——作为伴侣、母亲和雇员——会觉得不适应吗？

And when you got home, was it strange to reenter the real world where you're a partner and a mom and like an employee and was it strange to reenter?

会，非常不适应。即使现在，每当我参与这类活动，或是探索其他BDSM领域，参加各种相关聚会时，这种意识层面的割裂感始终存在。我常说有创伤经历的人最擅长划分心理界限，刚开始你确实会这样区隔。不过话说回来，BDSM其实让我在日常生活中——无论是工作还是母亲角色——都更能掌控自我了。

Yeah. It was it's very strange. Even now, like, anytime, you know, I do something like that and and I have, you know, gone down other avenues of kink since then and and I've been to different events and things like that, it is always strange because there's a duality to that aspect of your consciousness. I always say that folks with a trauma history are experts at compartmentalizing, you know, and so you do compartmentalize a little bit, at first anyway. Although as I'm saying that, I think of all the ways that like kink has allowed me to like step into my power more in my personal life now, like at work, you know, as a mother.

这让我感到非常有力量。

Like, it is very empowering for me.

距离你和彼得的第一次体验过去多少年了？

How many years has it been since that first session with Peter?

大约五年了。

It's been about five years.

大约五年。我很想听听你反思一下，绳索束缚这种癖好如何改变了你与自己身体的关系？

About five years. I would love to hear you reflect on how you think rope play kink, how has it changed your relationship to your own body?

你知道，它改变了我与身体的关系，就像超长跑一样，我不再把身体视为展示的物品，而是开始把它当作工具。从彼得第一次脱掉我的衣服，绕着我的身体走动，整体打量它——不是那种‘大腿太粗’或‘屁股太圆’的评判，而是作为一个整体工具来看待——这让爱自己的身体变得容易多了，就像超长跑带来的改变一样。因为你开始明白，那个你讨厌穿衣时显得臃肿的圆臀，在跑步时其实非常有用，毕竟你需要臀肌发力。

You know, it has changed my relationship to my body in that similar to ultra running, I stopped thinking of my body as a thing to present and I start thinking of my body as a tool, you know? And from the very first time that Peter, you know, undressed me and walked around my body and sort of gauged it as a whole and not like, oh, you know, too fat thighs or too bubbly butt or, you know, as a whole, as a tool, it it's made it so much easier to love my body, the same way ultra running has because you begin to see that the, you know, big squishy bubble butt that, you know, you hate dressing is also really great when you're running because you need your glutes.

就像，

Like,

那是支撑你的部位。那是完成跑步工作的部位，明白吗？绳索束缚也是如此，当你开始把身体视为工具时，爱上它会容易得多，也更容易发现它的美，而不是不断纠结‘这是我最美的角度吗？’‘这套衣服完美吗？’赤裸展现全身本身就是一种脆弱。

that's what's carrying you. That's what's doing the work of running, you know? And it's similar to rope where when you start seeing your body as a tool, it's a lot easier to fall in love with it, you know, and it's a lot easier to see what's beautiful about it instead of constantly like, is this my best side? Is this my, you know, perfect outfit? It's there's a a vulnerability to just exposing your whole body.

动物不会自我意识过剩。

The animal is not self conscious.

没错。说得太妙了。动物不会自我意识过剩。你永远不会看到一匹马说‘哦，我的蹄子’

Yes. Exactly. That's beautifully put. The animal is not self conscious. You never see, like, a horse being like, oh, my hooves.

完全不会。知道吗？天啊，我的后腿。正是。后腿。

Totally. You know? God, my haunches. Exactly. Hunches.

好一个后腿。其实我不确定马有没有这个部位。

What a haunch. I don't really know if that's a part of a horse.

你也永远不会看到灰熊说‘老天，要是能减掉最后20磅就好了’。绝对不可能。

You never see a grizzly bear being like, god, if I could lose these last 20 pounds, like. Totally not.

嗯，我超爱这样。你从不会听见鸟儿抱怨说，真希望我的翅膀不是这种形状。

Well, I love doing that. You never see a bird be like, I wish my wings weren't shaped that way.

没错。动物本能地明白身体就是工具，这背后有生物学原理，也有神圣的设计。

Yes. Exactly. Like, animals just understand that their body is a tool, you know, and and there's biology in that. There's there's divine design.

格蕾丝，你尝试绳缚时希望发现什么？

Grace, what were you hoping to find when you decided to try rope play?

我想探索大脑的不同区域，寻求对身体的新认知，希望能发掘从未发现的自我面向。

I was hoping to find a different part of my brain. I was hoping to find a new awareness of my body. I was hoping to uncover something that I hadn't seen before in myself.

那你找到了吗？天啊。当然。格蕾丝，这对话太棒了。

And did you find that? Oh my god. Yeah. Totally. Grace, what a conversation.

非常感谢你今天抽空交流。

Thank you so much for taking the time today.

别客气。谢谢邀请，这次谈话很愉快。

You are so welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a delight.

感谢各位收听。正如开头所说，《现代爱情》节目在每日推送中只剩最后几周了。若想继续收听（我衷心希望如此），节目描述中有订阅链接。那里还有大量《现代爱情》内容——订阅用户不仅能提前几天听到新剧集，纽约时报订户每周还可收听最新爱情散文朗读版。

Thanks for listening, everyone. Like we said at the top, Modern Love is only in the daily feed for a few more weeks. If you wanna continue hearing the show, and I really hope you do, we've got links to subscribe to Modern Love in the description. And we've got so much more Modern Love there for you to hear. Not only do you get Modern Love episodes a few days earlier than on the daily feed, but if you're a New York Times subscriber, you'll also get the latest Modern Love essays read aloud each week.

订阅用户还可访问完整往期库，海量内容待你探索。想到你们将听到这些我就兴奋——只需点击本期描述中的播客应用链接。《现代爱情》团队成员包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德等，本期由萨拉·柯蒂斯制作。

Subscribers also get access to the full back catalog of Modern Love, and there is a ton there to explore. I'm so excited for you to hear it. Just click the link to your podcast app in this episode's description. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.

由詹·波扬特和戴维斯·兰德剪辑。主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作，本期原创音乐来自黛安·王等人。混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯完成，录音棚支持由麦蒂·莫西洛等人提供。专栏编辑是丹尼尔·琼斯。

It was edited by Jen Poiant and Davis Land. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Rowan Nimisto, and Carol Sabarro. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Mosiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

Mia Lee是《现代爱情项目》的编辑。如果您想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，我们的节目说明中提供了投稿指南。我是Anna Martin。感谢您的收听。

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.