本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我一直想问你这个问题。
I've always wanted to ask you this question.
像你这样的电影评论家真的会对奥斯卡奖感到兴奋吗？
Do film critics like yourself actually get excited about the Oscars?
我对奥斯卡奖又爱又恨。
I have a love hate relationship with the Oscars.
我的意思是，从我还是个孩子的时候起，我可能几乎看过了每一届奥斯卡颁奖典礼。
I mean, I've watched, I think, probably almost every single Oscar since I was a child.
我经常整晚对着屏幕咒骂，然后疯狂地给朋友打电话，当我喜欢的电影获奖时又大声欢呼。
I often spend the entire time cursing at the screen and speed dialing friends and then cheering wildly when one of my favorite movies wins something.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以奥斯卡奖很糟糕，除非它没出错，也就是除非它选了我的电影。
So the Oscars are terrible unless they're right, which means unless they pick my movies.
你知道吗？
You know?
来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·巴尔巴罗。
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.
今天是《每日新闻》周日版。
This is The Daily on Sunday.
第九十八届奥斯卡颁奖典礼将在一周后举行。
The ninety eighth Annual Academy Awards are one week from today.
在去年美国上映的无数部电影中，大约有五十部获得了奥斯卡提名。
Of the untold hundreds of films that were released in The United States last year, some 50 or so are nominated for Oscars.
根据影评人和业内人士的说法，这些电影异常出色。
And according to critics and industry insiders, those movies are uncommonly good.
尽管好莱坞面临重重挑战，但那却是一个充满魔力的年份。
Despite all the forces arrayed against Hollywood, it was kind of a magical year.
优秀的电影被制作出来，观众们也大多找到了它们。
Great movies were made, and audiences found them, mostly.
因此，在奥斯卡颁奖礼倒计时一周之际，我们邀请《纽约时报》首席影评人玛诺拉·达吉斯前来聊聊2025年不容错过的表演和必看影片。
So with one week to go before the Oscars, we asked Manohla Dargis, The Times chief movie critic, to come in and talk about twenty twenty five's unmissable performances and unskippable movies.
所以请做好笔记，哪怕只是心里记一下，并在接下来的七天里明智地安排你的观影计划。
So take notes, even if they're just mental notes, and plan your watching very wisely for the next seven days.
今天是3月8日，星期日。
It's Sunday, March 8.
马诺拉，欢迎来到《周日每日》。
Manohla, welcome to The Sunday Daily.
谢谢你，迈克尔。
Thank you, Michael.
很高兴能来这里。
It's nice to be here.
这是我们第一次对话，你和我。
This is our first ever conversation, you and I.
我们怎么拖了这么久才聊？
What took us so long?
好问题。
Great question.
所以，如果你必须用一个词来描述今年的奥斯卡提名影片，你会选哪个词？
So if you had to pick a single word to describe this year's Oscar nominees, what would that word be?
一个词？
One word?
这就是这个练习的要求
That's the exercise
令人惊讶。
Surprising.
你知道吗？
You know?
之所以在某种程度上令人惊讶，是因为有这么多优秀的电影获得了提名。
And why it's surprising on some level is that there are so many good movies that are up for awards.
我的年度十佳电影里就有两部，比如《罪人在一场又一场战斗中》。
I mean, two of the movies are the top of my top 10, you know, Sinners in One Battle After Another.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且我认为
And I think
所以你今年和奥斯卡很合拍。
So you and the Oscars in sync this year.
发生什么事了？
What happened?
我的意思是，是的。
I mean, yes.
尽管有那么多不祥的警告、报道和文章，电影行业并没有死，电影制作和电影本身也绝对没有消亡。
So despite all of the dire warnings and broadcasts and, you know, articles that are out there, the movie industry is not dead, and movie making and movies are certainly not dead.
这就像是《魔女嘉莉》结尾时，那只手从坟墓里伸出来的场景。
It's kind of like think of the ending of Carrie when the hand pops out of the grave.
那就是美国电影。
That is American cinema.
你知道吗？
You know?
它回来了，宝贝。
It's it's back, baby.
这个行业可能一团糟，但电影还在，而且非常精彩。
The industry might be completely a mess, but the movies are there, and they're wonderful.
好的。
Okay.
所以，马诺拉，我们今天来聊聊我们的听众在下星期日奥斯卡颁奖典礼前一定要看的一些电影。
So, Manohla, we're here to talk about some of the movies our listeners should definitely plan to watch before the Oscar ceremony next Sunday.
我想到的方式是，先聊聊一些奥斯卡热门影片，再谈谈今年你个人特别喜爱的演员和表演。
I was thinking that the way we could do that is to talk about some of the front runners for Oscars and then some of the actors and the performances you personally loved this year.
也就是说，预测获奖者和应获奖者之间的张力。
So, basically, the will win versus should win tension.
那我们先从角逐最佳女主角的女演员们开始吧。
So let's start with the actresses competing for best actress in a leading role.
你认为谁最有可能赢得这个奖项？
Who do you think is likely to win there?
我认为，普遍的看法是，杰西·巴克利饰演了《哈姆内特》中威廉·莎士比亚的妻子安妮，她将会获胜。
Well, I think the consensus is that Jesse Buckley, who plays Agnes, William Shakespeare's wife in Hamnet, that she is going
会赢。
to win.
他知道他可能，我不是在草率下结论。
He knows what he may I'm not being hasty.
他需要更多。
He needs more.
哦，需要
Oh, needs
像样的工作。
proper work.
男人需要像样的工作。
A man needs proper work.
他不能就这样虚度人生。
He This cannot just run life.
你这么一压，他就垮了。
This little thing you crush him.
我觉得这会非常令人震惊。
I think it would be very shocking.
如果她没有赢，那将是今晚最大的冷门。
It would be probably the major upset of the evening if she did not win.
你觉得她在《Hamnet》中的表演有什么特别之处，让你认为她是领跑者？
What is it about her performance in Hamnet that you think makes her the front runner?
嗯，这是一个经典的角色。
Well, it's a kind of classic role.
讲述的是男人背后的女人。
It's about the woman behind the man.
在这个故事里，这个男人就是威廉·莎士比亚。
In this case, the man is William Shakespeare.
你在写什么？
What are you writing?
没什么值得注意的。
Nothing of note.
从来都不是无足轻重的。
It's never nothing.
通常情况下，电影里女性角色的经典设定是，她们先出场，然后向丈夫挥手告别，而丈夫则去开启他的冒险旅程，你知道的。
Usually, the women are introduced in a movie classically and then they wave at their husband as their husband goes off and has his adventure, you know.
但在这个故事里，我们是通过她的视角来看他，他们相爱、生子、建立家庭。
And in this case, we are seeing him through her and they fall in love, they have children, they build a home.
这个角色的丰富性在于，她经历了所有的情感。
Part of the richness of the character is the character goes through all the feelings.
你知道，我们看到了她对年轻性感的男人威尔的爱，威尔由保罗·梅斯卡尔饰演；接着是母爱，然后是婚姻中的戏剧冲突。
You know, we have the love of the young sexy man, Will, played by Paul Mezcal, and then we have mother love, And then we have marital drama.
接着是悲剧。
And then we have tragedy.
因此，作为演员，巴克利真的必须经历每一个层面的情感。
So as an actress, Buckley is really, really has to go through every single thing.
是的
Mhmm.
她还得带我们一起感受。
And she has to bring us along.
她才是真正带领我们体验所有不同情感层次的角色。
And she is really the character who is bringing us through all of the different emotional registers.
我不会在这个房子里生孩子。
I will not have my baby in this house.
绝不能在这个房子里生。
Not in this house.
有一个令人揪心的分娩场景，她正在生双胞胎。
There's a harrowing birth scene where she's giving birth to her twins.
这个场景带你经历每一个可能的瞬间，你知道，你一开始以为，哦，有人要生孩子了。
And the scene takes you through every possible motion, you know, where you're you're like, oh, someone's gonna give birth.
然后，哦，出什么事了？
And then, oh, what's happening?
她又重新开始了。
She's starting again.
你要生双胞胎了，我的女孩。
You're having twins, my girl.
而且
And
分娩过程非常非常艰难。
the birth is very, very difficult.
而且看起来可能以悲剧收场。
And it seems like it may end in tragedy.
为什么
Why
她为什么不哭？
is she not crying?
她为什么不哭？
Why is she not crying?
她让我们见证了每一个瞬间，她的面部表情不断扭曲。
And she takes us through every single moment as her face is contorting.
但其中也有爱，也有宁静。
But there is love and there is also serenity in there.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
看到这一切真的非常美丽。
And that is really beautiful to see.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后，当然，还有你刚才提到的悲剧，她所承载的悲痛，几乎是一种野性的表现。
And then, of course, there is the tragedy you alluded to just a little bit ago, the grief that she embodies, and it's almost animalistic.
至于悲剧，我会加以说明，如果有人不想听，他们可以嗯。
What the tragedy, which I will address, and if people don't wanna listen to it, they can Mhmm.
你知道吗，就在那一刻，他们把手指塞进耳朵里，因为他们的双胞胎之一、唯一的儿子哈姆内特，在威廉在伦敦写剧本时去世了。
You know, their fingers in their ears for a moment, is that one of their twins, their only son, Hamnet, dies while Will is in London working on a play.
而阿格尼斯怨恨他离家在外，尽管正是她自己鼓励他离开的。
And Agnes resents him for being away even though she was the one who encouraged him to go away.
他痛苦不堪。
He was in agony.
是的。
And, yes.
他哭了。
And he cried.
他哭了。
And he cried.
他哭了。
And he cried.
他的小身体被裹在粉色的布里。
And his little body was wrapped in pink.
别让我别出声。
Don't don't shush me.
他那么害怕，而你却不在这儿。
He was so scared, and you weren't here.
记住，学院喜欢宏大的表演。
And just remember, the Academy loves big performances.
情感，他们喜欢看其他演员经历这些。
Emotions, and they like watching other actors go through it.
对。
Right.
学院在情感上支持雪莉·麦克莱恩，而且永远都会。
The Academy roots for Shirley MacLean in terms of endearment, and it always will.
是的。
Yes.
只要你知道，如果鼻涕流到脸上，你大概就能拿到奥斯卡。
As long you know, if there's snot running down your face, you probably will get an Oscar.
好的。
Okay.
那么，杰西·巴克利是你最喜欢的提名表演吗？还是有其他人更值得获奖？
So is Jesse Buckley your favorite of the nominated performances, or is there somebody else who is perhaps more deserving?
我非常喜欢挪威女演员雷娜塔·伦扎维，她出演了一部叫《情感价值》的电影。
I'm very fond of Renata Renzave, who is a Norwegian actress, and she's in a movie called Sentimental Value.
我认为她的表演比巴克利的更细腻、更复杂，因为角色本身更复杂。
It's a more subtle and, I think, a more complicated performance than Buckley's because the character is more complicated.
那么，跟我们说说这个角色和这部电影吧。
Well well, tell us about the character and the film.
这部电影聚焦于一个家庭。
The movie is focused on a family.
父亲是一位电影导演，由斯塔兰·斯卡斯加德饰演。
The father is a filmmaker played by Stalin Skarsgard.
镜头在这里对准了她。
The camera's here on her.
这一点很关键，她此时的表情。
And this is crucial, the expression she has here.
他的女儿诺拉由雷娜塔·伦切维饰演，是一位冉冉升起的戏剧演员。
And his daughter Nora, played by Renata Renceve, is an up and coming theater actress.
他想拍一部新电影，并希望她主演，但她不愿意，因为他们的关系非常紧张。
He wants to make a new movie, and he wants her to star in it, and she does not because they have a very fraught relationship.
于是，他聘请了一位由艾拉·弗宁饰演的美国女演员。
So instead, he hires an American actress played by Elle Fanning.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在整部电影中，艾拉·弗宁饰演的角色基本上试图把自己塑造成女儿的样子。
And over the course of the movie, the Elle Fanning character basically tries to turn herself into a version of the daughter.
也许我该像英格丽那样说挪威口音。
Maybe I should have a Norwegian accent like Ingrid.
我没有口音。
I don't have an accent.
我吗？
Do I?
雷娜塔·伦塞维的表演堪称一场精湛的演出，但这是一种安静而内敛的精湛表演。
And Renata Renceve is just a it's a tour de force performance, but it is a quiet tour de force performance.
请为我们详细讲讲其中一个让她表演如此精湛的安静时刻。
Talk us through one of these quiet moments that makes this a tour de force performance.
有一个精彩的场景，埃勒·法宁饰演的角色去剧院探望正在演出话剧的雷娜塔·伦塞维。
There's a great scene when Elle Fanning's character goes to visit Renata Renzavey at the theater where she's doing a play.
嗨。
Hi.
很高兴见到你。
It's so nice to meet you.
很高兴认识
Nice to meet
两位女性坐在剧院的观众席上，气氛非常亲密。
The two women are seated in the auditorium of the theater, So it's pretty intimate.
但导演做了一件非常有趣的事。
But the director does something really interesting.
他把艾拉·芬宁放在画面的前景。
He puts Elle Fanning in the foreground of the shot.
所以她离我们很近，但有些模糊，略微失焦。
So she's really close to us, yet she's out of focus, slightly out of focus.
而另一位女性，雷娜塔·伦斯文这个角色，却非常清晰，她正在倾听艾拉·芬宁说话。
But the other woman, the Renata Rensving character, she's really crisp and she is listening to Elle Fanning talk.
就一直想着他犯了个错误。
Just keep thinking that he made a made a mistake.
她谈论着自己在扮演角色时的挣扎，那个雷娜塔·伦斯文本该接下却拒绝了的角色。
And she's talking about her struggles with the role that the Renata Renceve character should have taken but turned down.
我越研究她，就越感到自己无法成为她。
The more that I study her, the more lost I feel trying to be her.
就像她的悲伤
It's like her sadness
作为演员，雷娜塔·伦塞夫拥有我认为的那种极强的情感透明度。
As an actress Renata Renceve has what I think of as like great emotional transparency.
当我们看着她的脸时，能清楚地看到她倾听另一位女性说话时情绪的波动。
And we are watching her face ripple with emotions as she listens to the other woman.
你能看到她的好奇、她的惊叹、她的困惑。
So you see her curiosity, her wonder, her difficulty.
由于导演没有告诉我们该想什么、该有什么感受，所以我们自己得出了这些结论。
And because the filmmaker is not telling us what to think and how to feel, we come to that ourselves.
这是一个非常美妙的时刻，一个情感上极为真诚的时刻。
It's a very beautiful moment, a very emotionally honest moment.
嗯，他是个很难相处的人，
Well, he's a very difficult person,
但在细节上，这两个角色有很多相似之处。
but he's a really So in the particulars, these two roles have a lot in common.
两部电影都聚焦于戏剧这一重叠的主题。
Both films have this overlapping focus on the theater.
它们都包含一些真正的悲剧，但根据你的说法，这两场表演却非常不同。
They both have some real tragedy, but these are two very different from what you're saying performances.
对。
Right.
我的意思是，如果我要打个比方，一场表演像一场轰鸣的风暴，另一场则像温柔的薄雾，有时雨势会稍大一些。
I mean, if I was gonna you know, to use an analogy, one is a kind of thundering storm of a performance, and the other one is a kind of gentle, you know, mist, and sometimes the rain gets a little heavy.
但没有闪电，也没有雷声。
But it's not there's no lightning and thunder.
这是一种缓慢展现的表演。
It's a slow reveal of a performance.
好了，马诺拉，我们马上做个短暂的休息。
Well, Manohla, we are gonna take a very quick break.
回来后，我们将讨论谁最有可能赢得最佳男主角，以及谁应该赢得这个奖项。
And when we come back, we're gonna talk about who is likely to win and who should win when it comes to best actor.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我是罗宾，我非常兴奋地打开我的跨次元游戏应用。
I'm Robin, and I am excited to open my Crossplay app.
我正在挑战我的《纽约时报》同事约翰。
I'm challenging John, my colleague at The New York Times.
罗宾玩了单词‘grunge’，其中包含字母g，值四分。
Robin played the word grunge, which has a g, which is four points.
她触发了三倍单词分值奖励。
She got that triple word multiplier.
我要把‘facts’改成‘faxes’，拿30分。
I'm going to take facts and make it faxes for 30 points.
我可能会再用一个两个字母的词，比如‘woah’，这样我能拿到23分。
I might just take another two letter word here with woah, gets me at 23.
如果我的计算没错，这应该能让我重新领先。
I think this will put me back in the lead if my maths are mathing.
我更喜欢从策略角度来玩，看看怎样能阻止对手获得高分。
I like to play it more from a strategic point of view and see where I can block the other player from scoring high.
我很有竞争心。
I'm pretty competitive.
击败朋友和同事，同时还能学到新单词，这很有趣。
It's fun to beat friends and coworkers and also get to learn new words.
Crossplay，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。
Cross play, the first two player word game from New York Times games.
今天就免费下载吧。
Download it for free today.
我觉得他以为自己稳赢了，但我可不这么认为。
I think he thinks he has this in the bag, but I'm not so sure.
所以，马诺拉，去年最佳演员，最佳男性主角表演。
So Manohla, best actors, best lead performance by a man in the last year.
谁最有可能赢得那个奥斯卡奖？
Who is likely to win that Oscar?
呃。
Ugh.
这太难选了，因为今年的提名阵容异常出色。
This is such a hard one because it's a really unusually great slate.
我喜欢所有的表演。
I like all of the performances.
不过，如果非要我 narrowed it down，我会说可能是蒂莫西·查拉梅在《Marty Supreme》中的演出，迈克尔·B·乔丹在《Sinners》中饰演的双重角色，或者伊桑·霍克在《Blue Moon》中的表现。
However, if I had to be forced to narrow it down, I would say they could be Timothy Chalamet in Marty Supreme, Michael B.
乔丹在《Sinners》中饰演的双重角色，或者伊桑·霍克在《Blue Moon》中的表现。
Jordan for his dual roles in Sinners, or Ethan Hawke in Blue Moon.
好的。
Okay.
所以你的意思是，我们原本的胜出预测框架可能在这里要崩塌了。
So what you're telling us is that perhaps our will win framework might implode a little bit here.
但如果是这样，那我们就来聊聊这三位演员及其表演吧。
But if that's the case, let's just talk about all three of these actors and their performances.
你想从谁开始聊起，马诺拉？
And where do you wanna start, Manohla?
那我们先从蒂莫西·柴勒梅德说起吧。
Well, let's start with Timothy Chalamet.
是的。
Mhmm.
我非常尊重你的资金。
And I have tremendous respect for your money.
我知道这很难相信，但我告诉你，这款游戏在海外能填满体育场。
And I know it's hard to believe, but I'm telling you this game, it fills stadiums overseas.
而且只是时间问题，它迟早也会在美国填满体育场，到时候我会出现在威菲斯麦片的封面上盯着你。
And it's only a matter of time before it fills stadiums in The United States too, before I'm staring at you from the cover of a Wheaties box.
基斯在这部名为《Marty Supreme》的电影中出演，讲述的是一位乒乓球冠军的故事。
Key's, in this movie called Marty Supreme, which is about a table tennis champion.
故事发生在二战之后。
It's after World War two.
故事主要发生在纽约。
It takes mainly takes place in New York.
这部电影讲述的是一个人拼命追逐他的美国梦，而他通过乒乓球来实现这一点。
It's very much about someone who is really racing toward his American dream, and he's doing it through table tennis.
他是一位极其出色的乒乓球选手，同时私下里靠打黑球赚钱。
He's an amazing, amazing table tennis player, and he hustles on the side for money.
他在一家鞋店工作。
He works in a shoe store.
他是个不错的男孩，但同时也耍手段，而且毫不留情。
He's a nice boy, but he also hustles, and he's completely ruthless.
你怎么能做出这种事呢？
How could you of all people do this
对我？
to me?
我对你的方式？
The way I treat you?
我怎么能对你做这种事？
How could I do this to you?
是的。
Yes.
你怎么可能知道如何
How could you know how
我怎么能对你做这种事？
How to could I do this to you?
那你对我做的又算什么？
How about what you're doing to me?
你到底在做什么？
What are doing?
你有没有过
Have you ever
听过吗？一个好男孩，却在鞋店地下室里让一个女人怀孕，而他本该去帮一位老妇人选一双
heard I mean, nice boy who impregnates a woman in the basement of the shoe store while he's supposed to be getting an old woman a pair of
鞋短裤。
shoe shorts.
星号，老兄。
Asterisks, man.
你得用星号标出来。
You've gotta put it with asterisks.
这正是我想说的。
That's what I'm saying.
他是个品行不端的角色，而最有趣的角色往往就是这样。
He's a disreputable character as some of the most interesting characters are.
我的意思是
I mean
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是一种极具攻击性的表演，我不确定我们现在处于美国电影观众的哪个阶段，但人们似乎很难接受那些尖锐、刺人的人物。
It's a very aggressive performance, and I don't know where we are in this stage of American movie going, but people just seem to have a really hard time with characters who are spiky and barbed.
这是一部关于特定人物的美国梦的复杂而有趣的电影。
This is a complicated, interesting movie about what is the American dream for this very specific person.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在我最喜欢的其中一个场景中，是的。
And in one of my favorite sequences Yes.
给我们讲讲其中一个。
Tell us about one.
他去追求那个终极的金发女郎。
He goes after the ultimate chick saw.
我的意思是，你知道，格温妮丝·帕特洛。
I mean, you know, Gweny Paltrow.
我的意思是，就像，我不知道，她的身份到底是什么，但她就是
I mean, it's just like it like, I don't even know, like, what her what her identity is, but she's just
她在这部电影里显然不是犹太人。
like She's definitely not Jewish in this movie.
她扮演的是一位退休女演员，嫁给了一个极其富有、令人厌恶的男人。
She's playing someone, you know, a retired actress who's married, an extremely wealthy, a disgusting man.
蒂莫西在酒店里看到了她，立刻锁定目标。
And Timothy sees her in a hotel and just zeroes in on her.
好的。
Kay.
说吧。
Speaking.
嘿。
Hey.
这是马蒂·穆瑟。
It's Marty Mouser.
我在皇家套房。
I'm in the Royal Suite.
昨天我在大堂看到你了。
I saw you in the lobby yesterday.
好的。
Okay.
是的
Yeah.
我们对上了眼神。
We made eye contact.
正在接受采访。
Was being interviewed.
在这场精彩的场景中，他住进了一家他付不起钱的酒店。
In this great scene, he's checked himself into a hotel he cannot afford.
他想让别人替他付账，于是给她打了电话。
He's trying to get someone else to pay for it, and he calls her up.
他直接给她打了个冷电话，开始滔滔不绝地游说。
He just cold calls her and starts fast talking.
你知道的，他本身也像个表演者。
You know, something of a performer too.
是吗？
Are you?
是的。
Yeah.
你不相信我？
You don't believe me?
我们看到他，他看起来非常荒谬。
And we see him, and he just looks absurd.
他站在自己房间的床上
He's standing on his bed in his room
对。
Right.
穿着浴袍，里面只穿了内裤和袜子。
Wearing a bathrobe in his boxer shorts and socks.
这是你？
This is you?
是的。
Yeah.
天选之人。
The chosen one.
这是一张不错的照片。
It's a nice picture.
对吧？
Right?
等一下。
Hang on.
嗯，我打乒乓球。
Well, I play table tennis.
他语速飞快，拼命想勾引那个女人。
He's just talking a mile a minute trying to seduce this woman.
还有嗯。
And Mhmm.
她挂断了他的电话。
She hangs up on him.
他打回去，终于说服了她
He calls back, and he manages just to convince her
我会的。
I do.
你知道，
You know,
约个地方见面。
to meet up.
你就是会得到它。
You're just gonna have it.
我要让一个苹果出现在那个碗里。
I'm gonna make an apple appear in that bowl.
如果我做到了，你就取消你那小小的约会。不。
And if I do, you blow off your little rendezvous No.
不。
No.
你知道我们玩得多频繁。
You know much we play.
我不是。
I'm no.
我不同意任何事情。
I'm not agreeing to anything.
好吧。
Alright.
反正我也不必同意什么。
Well, I don't have to agree to anything.
我还是要这么做。
I'm gonna do it anyway.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们确实做了。
And they do.
他们真的会吗？
Do they ever?
我会给你留一张票。
I'll leave a ticket for you
在售票处。
at the box office.
那是一个非常外放的角色和外放的表演。
It's a very exuberant out there role and exuberant out there performance.
要扮演这样一个不讨喜的角色，同时不让整部电影变得完全不可爱，这很难。
It's a hard thing to play a character this unlikable and not make the movie totally unlikable.
说得对。
Exactly right.
你真的需要注入一些温暖，也就是他们所说的亲和力和魅力。
You really need to bring in some warmth, what they call relatability, and charm.
我觉得查拉梅特确实做到了这一切。
And I actually think that Chalamet does do all of that.
到目前为止，我们还不习惯美国电影中如此尖锐的英雄角色。
We're just not used to such abrasive heroes in American movies at this point.
但我认为他在这部电影中也同样极具魅力。
But I think that he does he's absolutely charming in this film as well.
我同意你的看法。
I have to agree with you.
现在让我们转向迈克尔·B·乔丹在《罪人》中的表演。
Let us now turn to Michael b Jordan and his performance in Sinners.
我跟你们待得越久，就越不确定了。
More time I spend with y'all, less sure I am.
你们真是认真的。
You boys are serious about it.
这里没有男孩。
Ain't no boys here.
我只看到成年男人。
I just grown men.
成年人的钱，成年人的子弹。
Grown men money and grown men bullets.
在《Sinners》中，迈克尔·B·乔丹通过电影的魔力饰演了一对双胞胎兄弟，一个叫Smoke，另一个叫Stack。
In Sinners, Michael B Jordan plays identical twins through the magic of cinema, one named Smoke and the other one named Stack.
CSU？
CSU?
我们离开很久了，Stack。
We've been gone a long time, Stack.
七年还不够忘记我们。
Seven years ain't long enough to forget about us.
做得非常流畅，也非常优美。
It's very seamlessly done and very beautiful.
我爱你。
Love you.
我也爱你。
Love you too.
小心点。
Be careful.
我会的。
I will.
他们本质上是帮派分子，回到了密西西比三角洲的家乡，并开了一家音乐酒吧。
And they are basically gangsters, and they've returned to their hometown in the Mississippi Delta, and they open a juke joint.
这部电影里发生了很多事情。
There's a lot happening in this movie.
你知道，这是一部恐怖片。
You know, it's a horror movie specifically.
里面有一个，呃，一个吸血鬼，一个古老的爱尔兰吸血鬼。
There's a, you know, there's a vampire, an Irish an ancient Irish vampire.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这个吸血鬼，它确实体现了白人对黑人文化、黑人文化历史的剥削，你知道的，方方面面。
And that vampire, it really embodies kind of a white exploitation of black culture, black cultural history, you know, everything.
所以这部电影极具野心。
And so the movie is incredibly ambitious.
不。
No.
妈妈。
Mother.
现在一切都会好起来的。
Everything gonna be alright now.
我特别欣赏乔丹的表演，除了他确实能够塑造出两个截然不同的角色，并让它们以非常互补的方式共存之外，他还真正融入了每个角色，赋予了他们各自鲜明的个性。
And one of the things I really love about Jordan's performance beyond the fact that he actually is able to create two very distinct characters and make them work very comp in a very complementary fashion is that he really inhabits each one and gives each very specific personality.
还有，有一场特别精彩的戏是Smoke去探望他的妻子。
And Smoke there's this great scene where Smoke visits his wife.
你怎么样？
How you be?
没有什么痛苦是值得抱怨的。
No misery is worth complaining about.
他们已经很久没见面了，彼此之间有着非常痛苦而悲惨的过往。
And they haven't seen each other for a while, they have really very painful tragic history.
我从来没看过什么根。
I ain't never saw no roots.
没有恶魔。
No demons.
没有幽灵。
No ghosts.
没有魔法。
No magic.
只有力量。
Just power.
本质上，你是在观看两个人重新发现彼此。
And it's a basically, you're watching two people rediscover each other.
你怎么知道我没祈祷过？
How you know I ain't pray?
展开剩余字幕（还有 263 条）
我每天按照祖母教我的方法走每一条路线，确保你和你那个疯疯癫癫的兄弟都安全，自从你离开以后一直都是这样。
I work every route my grandmother taught me to keep you and that crazy brother, you're safe every day since you've been gone.
所以你所看到的，是一种重新追求的过程。
And so what you're watching is a kind of renewed courtship.
你知道，你看着两个人彼此打磨，再次相爱，然后紧紧相拥。
You know, you're watching two people refined each other and fall in love again and then fall in into each other's arms.
回到这里，依然令人心痛。
It still hurts coming back here.
但我爱你。
But I love you.
我想念你。
And I miss you.
然后事情变得，嗯，相当火热。
And then it gets, well, smoking hot.
我的意思是，他叫Smoke，我想。
I mean, his name is Smoke, I guess.
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
他们之间有着非常深刻的情感邂逅。
They have they have quite a profound amorous encounter.
是的。
Yes.
拍得真美。
It's beautifully done.
而且要说的是，这只是表演的一半，因为这部电影中，这位演员实际上展现了两种截然不同的表演。
And just to say, that is one half of the performance because there's literally two performances in this one actor's performance in this movie.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
我们潜在的最佳男主角候选人中最后一位，他只扮演了一个角色，就是伊桑·霍克在电影《蓝月》中的表现。
The last person in our potential likely to win best actor category, and he's only playing one role, is Ethan Hawke in the film Blue Moon.
好的。
Okay.
《卡萨布兰卡》中最经典的台词。
Best line in Casablanca.
从来没有人那样爱过我。
Nobody ever loved me that much.
这难道不伟大吗？
Isn't that magnificent?
六个词。
Six words.
从来没有人那样爱过我。
Nobody ever loved me that much.
事实上，有谁曾被爱得足够多呢？
And really, who's ever been loved enough?
有谁曾被爱过一半那么多呢？
Who's ever been loved half enough?
你能给我一次机会吗？
Would you give me a shot?
那么谈谈他的表演吧。
So talk about that performance.
嗯，
Well,
这部电影主要发生在一个夜晚。
this is a movie takes largely takes place on one night.
非常重要的一晚。
Very, very important evening.
那是1943年3月31日，我们跟随作词家洛伦兹·哈特，他与作曲家理查德·罗杰斯共同创作了多部重要音乐剧，比如《波威尔·乔伊》以及主题曲《蓝月》。
It's 03/31/1943, and we are with the lyricist, Lorenz Hart, who with the composer Richard Rogers wrote a bunch of important musicals like Powell Joey as well as the title song Blue Moon.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但此时，哈特已经彻底垮了。
At this point, though, Hart is a wreck.
他是个酒鬼，而罗杰斯有了新搭档奥斯卡·哈默斯坦二世，他们正在创作一部新音乐剧，而哈特刚刚退出了这部作品。
He's an alcoholic, and Rogers has a new partner named Oscar Hammerstein the second, and they have a new musical that Hart has just walked out of.
一部名叫《俄克拉荷马》的小作品。
A little a little thing called Oklahoma.
他反复强调，带着感叹号。
With an exclamation point as he repeatedly Fact.
他说了整整一段
Says throughout the
任何需要感叹号来强调的标题，你都该避而远之。
Any title that feels the need for an exclamation point, you want to steer clear of.
我喜欢这场表演中这种毫无虚荣心的表现，因为伊桑·霍克被塑造成一副极其悲伤的样子。
There's a lack of vanity here that I love in the performance because Ethan Hawke has been made to look very sad.
他梳着一个悲剧式的分头。
He has a tragic comb over.
他个子很矮。
He's very short.
他们总是故意降低他的身高表现。
They cheat his height all the time.
他看起来穿着一件对他来说太大了的西装。
He looks like he's in a a suit that it looks too big for him.
有时他看起来简直在我们眼前不断缩水。
He looks like he at times is literally shrinking before our eyes.
当他对峙时，这种效果几乎真的发生了。
And that actually really almost seems to happen when he has a confrontation.
这关系很友好，但非常依赖且咄咄逼人，理查德·罗杰斯由安德鲁·斯科特饰演。
It's friendly, but it's very needy and needling with Richard Rogers played by Andrew Scott.
我记得我第一次听说你的时候。
I remember when I first heard about you.
你只是莫蒂·罗杰斯的小弟弟。
You were just Morty Rogers' little brother.
什么？
What?
你当时17岁？
You were 17?
16岁。
16.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时23岁。
I was 23.
12份工作。
12 job.
对。
Yeah.
你就是山中的智者。
You were the wise old man in the mountain.
但当我第一次听到你演奏时，我就知道你有这个天赋。
But when I first heard you play your stuff, I knew you had it.
我并不是完全
I wasn't entirely
我们只是在旁观，哈特一边贬低自己、卑躬屈膝，却又如此骄傲。
We are just basically watching, Hart kind of debase himself groveling, and yet he's so proud.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我就在这里，现在，随时准备工作。
I'm right here, right now, ready to work.
你能从霍克的表演和表情中看到这些矛盾的情绪。
And you see these warring emotions in Hawk's performance and in his face.
我不需要再回医院看医生。
I don't need to go back to doctor's hospital.
我也不需要看心理医生。
And I don't need a psychiatrist either.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
我们指的是谁？
Who's we?
你看到了吗，他的表情变得坚硬、柔和，几乎要崩溃在
You see it, the face harden, soften, almost collapse in
自己身上。
on itself.
听我说，我很抱歉。
Look, I am sorry.
我不在乎有人攻击我。
I don't care if somebody attacks me.
这对我来说毫无意义，但没人能攻击我的作品。
It doesn't mean anything to me, but nobody can attack my work.
这正是我所做的一切。
It is all I've done.
这真的非常了不起。
It's really quite remarkable.
对。
Right.
这是一场极其悲伤的表演，因为你看到一个人，他曾坚信自己伟大并拥有持久的遗产，却不得不承认自己被击败了，这非常、非常悲惨。
It is such a profoundly sad performance because you're watching someone who believed themselves to be so great and to have such an enduring legacy recognize that he's been bested, and it's very, very tragic.
确实是。
It is.
但与此同时，有一种难得的克制，你不会被悲剧感迎头击中。
Yet at the same time, there is a a lovely kind of restraint where you're you're not hit over the head with the tragedy.
明白吗？
Know?
哈特非常幽默。
Hart is very funny.
他有着尖锐的机智。
He has a lacerating wit.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他是个表演者。
He is an entertainer.
他想要娱乐并吸引他人。
He wants to entertain and seduce.
因此，他展现出一种热情与活力，同时我们也能看到他的依赖与绝望。
So he is leading with a kind of enthusiasm and a brio, and at the same time we can see the neediness and the desperation.
所以，所有这些，那场小小的内心斗争始终存在。
So all of that, that little war is always there.
表演。
Show.
还有，各位，顺便说一下，‘玉米高过象眼’是美国歌曲史上最蠢的歌词。
And hey, fellas, just for the record, the corn is as high as an elephant's eye is the stupidest lyric in the history of American songwriting.
是的。
Yes.
这完全说得通。
It makes perfect sense.
你知道，霍克作为一名演员，比他年轻时那张俊俏脸庞、台词不多的时候要出色得多，也有趣得多。
You know, Hawk is a much greater and much more interesting actor than he was when he was cute and didn't have as many lines on his face.
我们有些人，你知道的，是随着年龄增长而越来越好的，对吧？
Some of us, you know, we improve with age, you know?
嗯。
Mhmm.
他的经历都写在脸上。
His history is in his face.
那些皱纹，岁月的痕迹，他作为一个人所经历的一切。
The lines, the age, what he's been through as a human being.
霍克基本上是在挖掘这一切，然后加入他对这个即将离开人世的男人的诠释。
Hawk is basically tapping into all that and then adding his interpretation of this man who is soon going to depart this Earth.
对。
Right.
嗯，因为我想在这里保留一些‘意愿’与‘应该’之间的对比，你觉得这三个人中谁该赢？
Well, because I would like to maintain some version of the will versus should construct here, Who do you think should win of these three?
我其实更倾向于选我喜欢的，那就是伊桑·霍克。
I really would like it's more about what I like, would be Ethan Hawke.
我认为这是一场极其出色的表演。
I think it's a I think it's a magnificent performance.
但我也觉得迈克尔·B·乔丹表现得非常出色。
But I also think that Michael b Jordan is wonderful.
我不知道，这属于那种时刻——因为这些表演实在太丰富了，所以像往常那样用简单的‘意愿’或‘应该’来做判断真的非常非常困难。
I don't you know, I it's one of these times which just, again, because it's such a rich group of performances that, you know, it's very, very difficult to to do our usual binary will we should.
你知道的吧？
You know?
我们休息一下吧。
Let's take a break.
回来后，我们会聊到重头戏——最后一个奖项，或者倒数第二个奖项，也就是总是漫长无比的颁奖夜中的最佳影片。
And when we come back, we will talk about the main event, the last award, or the second to last award of what is always an incredibly long evening, which is Best Picture.
你好。
Hi.
我是索拉娜·莱恩。
I'm Solana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更近距离地感受重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业能力帮助您理解正在发生的事情。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用程序的“观看”标签页中。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
所有这些视频都免费向所有人开放。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
您无需成为订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
马诺拉，我们现在进入这场对话的最佳影片阶段。
Manohla, we are now at the best picture phase of this conversation.
你之前提到，今年大型电影公司承担了一些重大风险。
And you had mentioned earlier that this was a year when big studios took some big risks.
你提到的这两部高风险影片，《一场接一场的战斗》和《罪人》，作为影评人，你都非常喜欢，而这两部影片在票房上也表现不俗，这真是太好了。
And two of those risky films, you had mentioned, one battle after another and Sinners ended up being films that you really like as a critic, which is pretty great on top of the fact that both did quite well at the box office.
让我们来谈谈这两部影片作为最佳影片候选者的情况。
So let's talk about these two films as best picture contenders.
因为我们已经讨论过《罪人》，那我们先从《一场接一场的战斗》开始吧。
And I think because we already talked about Sinners, let's start with one battle after another.
我说我拿到了HMEs。
I said I got HMEs.
我拿到了迫击炮。
I got mortars.
我有催泪瓦斯。
I got tear gas.
我有你们需要的任何东西，
I got whatever you
但我不清楚我们的计划是什么。
guys need, but I'm I'm unclear as to what the plan is.
我需要一些指导。
I need some direction.
别模棱两可。
Don't be unclear.
我有个计划。
I got a plan for us.
这是一场保罗·托马斯·安德森式的体验。
This is a Paul Thomas Anderson experience.
它讲述了一群准革命者的故事，包括莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥，他在这部电影中表现得非常出色。
It follows a group of would be revolutionaries, including Leonardo DiCaprio, who's actually wonderful in this movie.
他扮演鲍勃。
And he plays Bob.
鲍勃是个彻底的颓废者。
Bob is a total burnout.
你知道，他基本上就躺在沙发上喝酒、吸大麻，同时抚养他的女儿。
You know, he's just basically drinking and getting stoned on his couch while he's raising his his daughter.
维拉。
Willa.
你怎么回家的？
How did you get home?
当然是开车回来的。
Well, with my car.
你开车了？
You drove?
所以你是来当我的保姆的？
So what what are you my babysitter?
什么什么什么？
What what what?
是的。
Yeah.
我知道怎么喝酒后开车，亲爱的。
I know how to drink and drive, honey.
我知道自己在做什么。
I know what I'm doing.
我我我并没有他
I I I didn't He
他有一个宿敌，由肖恩·潘精彩演绎，对方主要追击他们。
has a nemesis, played also a wonderful performance, Sean Penn, who basically goes after them.
我们跟随莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥的角色，看他如何潜入地下，试图营救被绑架的女儿，而他并不知道女儿的下落。
And we follow Leonardo DiCaprio's character as he basically goes underground and tries to rescue his daughter who's been taken, and he doesn't know where his daughter is.
她得
She's got do
你有她的电话号码吗，老兄？
you have her phone number, man?
没有。
No.
每个人都知道她有电话号码。
Everybody knows she has a phone number.
每个人都知道她有？
Everybody knows she has?
为什么没有
Why didn't
她没告诉我她有电话。
she tell me she has a phone?
也许她不被允许
Maybe she's not allowed
拥有该死的电话。
to have a goddamn phone.
也许她不希望你生气。
Well, maybe she didn't want you to get mad.
我不会生气。
I don't get mad.
我再也不为任何事生气了。
I don't get mad about anything anymore.
这部电影在某些方面非常震撼，因为它讲述的是一些相信更美好的美国并为之奋斗的人，但有些人会称他们为恐怖分子，另一些人则只称他们为革命者。
It's a really shocking movie in some ways because it is about people who believe that there is a better America and are fighting for it, but they're actually some people would call it characterize them as terrorists, other people would just call them as revolutionaries.
我认为它之所以能深深吸引观众，是因为它似乎在回应我们都在关注的那些冲突。
And I think that one of the reasons that it really kind of grabbed audiences is it seemed to be speaking to conflicts that we are all reading about.
大约有250到275人在那里。
Against this about 250, 275 people in there.
很难数清楚。
It's hard it's hard to count.
我们需要
We need to be
开场片段一开始是
The opening sequence you find had begins with a
一群
bunch of
革命者基本上救出了被美国军队俘虏的一些人。
revolutionaries basically rescuing some people who have been seized by the United States military.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我记得我第一次看这部电影时，观众们都变得非常非常安静。
And I just remember when I first saw the movie, everyone got really, really quiet in the audience.
我认为每个人都感到震惊，因为感觉就像你在观看昨天刚发生的事情的戏剧化再现。
I think everyone was shocked because it felt like you were almost watching a dramatization of something that had just happened yesterday.
但尽管如此严肃，这部电影有时也相当滑稽。
But for all that seriousness, it's also a rather goofy movie at times.
哦，简直太精彩了。
Oh, gloriously so.
我的意思是，这可不是一部严肃得像吃蔬菜一样的电影。
I mean, it is not a solemn eat your vegetables movie.
你知道的？
You know?
这部电影其实暗示了悲剧的另一面是喜剧，无论这件事看起来多么悲惨，它也带着一种滑稽感。
It is a movie that is kind of suggesting that the other side of tragedy is comedy, that however tragic this can seem, it's also goofy.
有一个很棒的场景，莱昂纳多的角色正在逃亡。
There's a great scene where DiCaprio's character is now on the run.
他试图联系他以前的战友，于是打了一个电话。
He is trying to connect with his old comrade, and he makes a phone call.
起床了，该醒了。
Rise and shine.
眨眨眼。
Pat an eyelash.
早上好。
Good morning.
有一串密码，但他忘了自己该告诉对方什么。
There's a series of codes, and he forgets what he's supposed to tell the other person.
现在几点了？
What time is it?
该死。
Fuck.
你知道吗，我不记得有这一段了。
You know, I don't I don't I don't remember that part.
好吧。
Alright.
我们干脆就
Let let let's just
别在密码的事情上较真了。
not nitpick over the password stuff.
听好了。
Look.
这是鲍勃，第一个。
This is Bob first.
你记不得了，老兄。
You can't remember, man.
已经过去很久了。
It's been so long.
说吧。
Speak.
我只记得这一堆破事的一半，还有这个该死的热线，这简直是个奇迹。
I only remember half of this shit and this stupid fucking hotline, which is a fucking miracle.
所以别跟我捣乱了，告诉我该死的会合地点。
So stop fucking with me and give you the fucking rendezvous point.
也许你该想想，天啊，我真的记不起来了。
Maybe you should have Man, I just can't remember.
我只需要，这简直太好笑了。
I just need and it's gloriously funny.
你有空的时候给我们回个电话。
Call us back when you have the time.
什么？
What?
你刚刚是不是直接挂了电话？
Did you you just you just fucking hang up
你这个该死的混蛋，居然挂我电话。
on me, you fucking literal fucking prick.
好吧。
Okay.
所以这是一场接一场的战斗。
So that's one battle after another.
关于《罪人》，马诺拉，既然你已经通过迈克尔·B·乔丹的表演盛赞了这部电影，我不知道你能否为我们详细讲讲影片中除了这一表演之外的某个场景或维度，帮助人们理解它为何可能赢得最佳影片奖。
When it comes to Sinners, Manohla, since you've already extolled its virtues through the performance of Michael b Jordan, I wonder if you can talk us through a scene or a dimension of the film beyond that performance that helps people understand why it may win best picture.
等一下。
Hold.
等等。
Hold.
等等。
Hold.
等等。
Hold.
说出你是谁。
Tell who you are.
你来自哪里？
Where you from?
电影中有一个场景，我认为是杰作。
There is a scene in the middle of the movie that I think is a masterpiece.
我是萨米·摩尔。
I'm Sammy Moore.
我认为这充分展现了库格勒的电影才华。
And I think it really displays Coogler's cinematic genius.
哦。
Oh.
当然，我是向日葵种植园的铜管乐手。
Sure copper from Sunflower Plantation.
这部电影之所以如此动人，部分原因在于它不仅仅是一部娱乐片。
And part of what makes this movie so moving, because it's not just that it is an entertaining movie.
它在处理历史主题方面极为丰富。
It's an extremely rich movie in terms of how it is dealing with history.
有一个场景，如今的爵士酒吧已经开放，一位名叫萨米的年轻蓝调音乐人开始演奏一首
It's a scene where where now the juke joint is open, and there's a young bluesman named Sammy and he starts to play a
歌。
song.
而且
And
当他在演唱时，镜头开始在房间里缓缓移动。
the camera starts moving around the room as he is singing.
突然间，你听到一点电吉他的声音。
And suddenly, you hear a little bit of electric guitar.
接着你看到一个人，看起来像是来自七十年代放克乐队的。
And then you see somebody who looks like he could be out of a nineteen seventies funk band.
随着这首布鲁斯歌曲继续播放，镜头继续移动，你看到了嘻哈舞者。
And then the camera just keeps on going as this blues song is is playing, and you see b boys.
你看到一位DJ在转盘前操作。
You see a DJ with it at a turntable.
你甚至看到一位现代芭蕾舞者。
You actually see a modern ballerina.
时间
Time
空间仿佛坍缩，你感受到一段宏大的历史脉络，它将我们从非洲带到密西西比，承载着所有文化与人物，引领我们走向未来——在那里，一位名叫瑞安·库格勒的年轻电影人拿起摄像机，拍摄出一部伟大的美国电影。
and space kind of collapse, and you get a sense of the great arc of history that takes us from Africa to Mississippi and all of the culture and all of the people that have led us to this moment and are pointing us toward the future where a young filmmaker named Ryan Coogler will pick up a camera and make one of the great American movies.
有趣的是，《罪人》和《一场接一场的战斗》这两部电影以一种美国主流电影，尤其是大制片厂很少做到的方式，诠释了美国经验。
It's part of what's so interesting is that Sinners and One Battle After Another are two movies that are speaking to the American experience in a way that American cinema doesn't necessarily do, particularly from the big studios.
这些电影对我们来说显得非常迫切。
These movies feel urgent to us.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的意思是，它们对我来说真的非常迫切，似乎正在探讨在这个时代做一名美国人的意义。
I mean, they feel really urgent to me, and they really be seem to be speaking about what it is to be an American at this moment in time.
我认为这也是观众对它们如此接受的原因之一。
And I think that's part of why audiences have been so receptive to them as well.
没错。
Right.
所以在《Sinners》和《One Battle After Another》这两部电影中，我们一直在谈论许多人都看过的影片。
So in both Sinners and One Battle After Another, we've been talking about films that a lot of people saw.
我想在结束我们关于最佳影片的讨论前，问问有没有哪部提名影片虽然没那么热门，但你认为我们的听众一定应该去看、去理解？
I wonder, to end our best picture conversation, if there is a nominee that maybe wasn't as big of a hit, but something that you think our listeners really should see and understand.
哦，那就是《The Secret Agent》，一部来自我最喜爱的导演之一的巴西电影。
Oh, well, it's, The Secret Agent, which is a Brazilian film from one of my favorite directors.
而且，我也想提到前影评人克莱伯·门多萨·菲略。
And, also, I just wanna say former film critic, Cleber Mendoza Filho.
这部电影设定在1977年军事独裁时期，讲述了一位已隐姓埋名的前教授的故事。
This is a movie that opens in 1977 during the military dictatorship, and we are following a former professor who has basically gone underground.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这部电影最令人惊喜的地方在于，我敢保证你永远猜不到接下来会发生什么，这种感觉实在太棒了。
One of the absolute delights of this movie is that you I can guarantee you will never know what is gonna happen next, which is just absolutely so welcome.
它从一些荒诞、近乎滑稽的喜剧场景开始。
It goes from moments of outrageous, almost kind of burlesque comedy.
电影里甚至有一个被砍下的腿在到处跳动、踢人。
There is literally a severed leg jumping around and kicking people in this movie.
但它也探讨了在政治压迫下生活是什么滋味。
But it's also about what is it like to live under oppression, political oppression.
它还讲述了志同道合的人如何团结起来共同生存。
And it's about coming together with like minded souls in order to survive.
在这一层面上，它非常感人。
It's very moving on that level.
他是一位出色的电影导演，人们真的应该去看看这部电影。
He is a wonderful filmmaker, and people should really check this movie out.
所以，马诺拉，当你审视这一批电影，尤其是像《罪人》和《一场接一场的战斗》这样的影片时，它们让你对好莱坞岌岌可危的未来产生了怎样的感受？
So, Manohla, when you look at this slate of movies, and particularly these movies like Sinners and One Battle After Another, what do they leave you feeling exactly about the always in jeopardy future of Hollywood?
嗯，我认为，我希望电影制片厂的高管们看到这一片单，看到这些电影的成功后，会说：天哪，原来如此。
Well, I think, you know, one of the things that I would hope is that movie executives would look at this lineup and look at the success of these movies and say, gee whiz, actually.
也许人们想要的是制作精良、能反映我们所处世界现实的电影。
Maybe people want movies that are very well made and say something about the world that we live in.
也许我们真的不想看那些完全脱离现实的电影，就像许多美国大片常常那样。
Maybe actually we don't wanna watch movies that are completely divorced from reality the way that so many American, you know, big the big blockbusters often are.
如果电影高管们能跟上观众的步伐，那将会非常好。
I think it would be really nice if the movie executives got in line with the movie audiences at some point.
我觉得这可能是很久以来第一次，人们在奥斯卡颁奖时不会对着电视大喊大叫。
I feel like this is gonna be the first Oscars in a very long time where you may not actually be screaming at the television.
我随时可以叫你迈克尔，如果你需要的话，我随时可以大喊大叫。
I can always call you Michael and start yelling if you need me to.
我随时待命，随时可以爆发怒火。
I am available for speed dial anger.
你懂的？
You know?
我真的等不及了。
Well, I really can't wait for that.
马诺拉。
Manohla.
当然。
For sure.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so very much.
这真是一次极大的享受。
This was a real treat.
今天的节目由亚历克斯·巴隆制作，并得到卢克·范德普鲁格和蒂娜·安塔利尼的帮助。
Today's episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Luke Vander Plug and Tina Antalini.
本节目由温迪·多尔编辑，索菲亚·兰德曼负责技术制作。
It was edited by Wendy Doar and engineered by Sofia Landman.
节目中包含丹·鲍威尔、帕特·麦卡斯克和玛丽安·洛扎诺创作的音乐。
It contains music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marian Lozano.
我们的制作经理是弗兰尼·卡雷·托思。
Our production manager is Franny Carr Toth.
以上就是周日的《每日新闻》全部内容。
That's it for The Daily on Sunday.
我是迈克尔·巴尔巴罗。
I'm Michael Barbaro.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。