参议员们猛烈抨击小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪

嗨，我是《纽约时报》游戏团队的乔尔，我正在这里和大家聊聊游戏。你最喜欢的游戏是什么？

Hi. I'm Joel from the New York Times games team, and I'm out here talking to people about games. What's your favorite game?

迷你连连看。

The mini Connections.

死亡十字氛围。

Dead Cross vibe.

线索编织。

Strands.

当你玩我们的游戏时，你的感受是怎样的

What's your vibe when you're playing one of our

？

games?

这让我感觉自己在用一种非常高效的方式拖延时间。

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive productive way.

它正好满足了我大脑的某种需求。

It just scratches an itch in my brain.

所有这些

All of

游戏都很有趣，因为它们像是五到十分钟的小休息。我超爱这些游戏。没错。

these games are so fun because it's, like, a little five to ten minute, like, break. I love these games. Yeah.

您可以在nytimes.com/games或我们的游戏应用中玩所有《纽约时报》的游戏。

You can play all New York Times games at nytimes.com/games or in our games app.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。您正在收听的是《每日播报》。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro. This is The Daily.

我认为罗伯特·肯尼迪根本不该与这份工作有任何瓜葛。今天，

I don't think Robert Kennedy should be within a million miles of this job. Today,

在周四一场异常紧张的对峙中

in an extraordinarily tense showdown on Thursday

你大错特错

You're so wrong

你正在打断我。先生，你是个江湖骗子。你就是这种人。

on You're your interrupting me. And sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are.

卫生部长小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪遭到两党参议员的质询。

Health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was confronted by senators of both parties.

简直是疯话。你完全是在胡编乱造。居然要给

Is crazy talk. You just made yourself up. To prescribe

儿童开疫苗处方。我没有凭空捏造

a vaccine for children. I'm not making Over things

他的疫苗政策、他罢免疾控中心主任的行为，以及越来越多为抗议其领导而辞职的联邦卫生官员名单。

his vaccine policies, his ouster of the director of the CDC, and the growing list of federal health officials who have resigned in protest of his leadership.

除了你之外所有人都腐败了？这就是我们看到的局面吗？我不这么认为。而且我觉得

Everybody is corrupt but you? Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so. And I think

这个问题我甚至

the issue I don't even

不知道你在说什么。好吧，我认为这是

know what you're talking about. Well, I think it's

我的同事谢丽尔·盖伊·斯托伯格当时在场，她描述了这似乎是国会与肯尼迪关系中的一个转折点。

My colleague, Cheryl Gay Stolberg, was in the room and describes what seems like a turning point in the relationship between congress and Kennedy.

你是美国人民健康的危害。我能回应吗？你你

You are a hazard to the health of the American people. Can I respond? You you

你不。我我我我我我

you no. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm

那是9月5日星期五。谢丽尔，这是一场非同寻常的听证会。之所以说它非同寻常，是因为双方——证人和参议员——都表现出极高的愤怒情绪。之所以非同寻常，还因为双方互相指责，以及人们被称作骗子的次数之多。几乎所有这些都源于卫生部长罗伯特·F。

It's Friday, September 5. Cheryl, this was a remarkable hearing. Remarkable, I would say, for the level of anger in both directions, witness and senators. Remarkable because of the accusations that were traded and the sheer number of times that people were called liars. And almost all of it stemmed from decisions that the secretary of health, Robert F.

小肯尼迪围绕疫苗做出的决定，尤其是过去几周的决定，以及这对美国公共卫生的影响。

Kennedy junior, has made around vaccines, especially in the past few weeks, and where that leaves public health in The United States.

这确实非同寻常。首先，在首都，证人称参议员为骗子是非常罕见的，如果有的话。对吧。而且肯尼迪来自一个非常特殊的背景。对吧？

It was extraordinary. First of all, it's very rare in the capital, if ever, to see a witness call a senator a liar. Right. And Kennedy comes from a very particular place. Right?

他成长于这个民主党家庭。他还是个小男孩时就在椭圆形办公室玩耍，那时他的叔叔约翰是总统。他毫无顾忌地将这些参议员视为与自己平等的人。他不是来寻求好处的。他是来游说侮辱的。

He grew up in this democratic family. He was playing in the Oval Office, you know, when he was a little boy and his uncle John was president, and he feels no compunction about treating these senators as his equal. He does not come seeking favors. He comes lobbying insults.

那么，就请你从你的角度描述一下这次听证会召开的背景。

Well, just give me the context as you see it in which this hearing arrives.

自肯尼迪七个月前被特朗普总统任命为卫生与公众服务部长以来，当他获得确认时，不仅民主党人，甚至部分共和党人也对他的疫苗观点持保留态度。许多人称他反疫苗，但他坚称自己并非反对疫苗，而是支持安全接种。

Well, it's been seven months since Kennedy was sworn in by president Trump as health and human services secretary. When he was confirmed, there was a lot of pause about him on the part of Democrats, but also some Republicans about his views on vaccines. Many people would call him anti vaccine. He insists he's not anti vaccine. He's pro safety.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尽管如此，参议员们仍非常担忧，而肯尼迪当时做出了一些非常明确的承诺。

But nonetheless, senators were very concerned, and Kennedy made some very explicit promises.

为了获得确认。对。

To get confirmed. Right.

为通过任命听证，他承诺不会剥夺任何人的疫苗接种权利，也不会劝阻民众接种疫苗。

To get confirmed, he said he was not going to take away anybody's vaccines, and he was not going to discourage vaccination.

这对两党持怀疑态度的参议员而言，似乎是个至关重要的承诺。

And that seems like a very important promise to have made for skeptical senators from both parties.

确实如此。但过去七个月里，在遭遇二十年来最严重的麻疹疫情时，肯尼迪对麻疹疫苗仅作出不温不火的支持表态。他取消了价值5亿美元的mRNA疫苗政府合同——这项技术正是用于研发新冠疫苗的核心技术。

Yes. Very much so. But in the seven months since, Kennedy has issued a very lukewarm endorsement of the measles vaccine during a measles outbreak that is the worst in this country in twenty years. He canceled $500,000,000 in government contracts for mRNA vaccines. That's the technology that was used to create the COVID vaccines.

肯尼迪还宣布将不再建议健康儿童和65岁以下成年人接种新冠疫苗，这将实际增加接种难度——部分药房会要求处方，而某些保险公司可能拒绝承保。

Kennedy also announced that COVID vaccines would no longer be recommended for healthy children or adults 65, which will make them effectively harder to get because some pharmacies will require prescriptions and some insurers might not insure them.

没错。这是政府对新冠疫苗接种建议的重大倒退。

Right. That's a major rollback in the government's recommendation for COVID vaccines.

确实如此。更甚的是，他解雇了为CDC疫苗政策提供建议的17人专家小组全体成员，并安插了自己的亲信取而代之，其中许多人和他一样对疫苗持怀疑态度。但引发CDC巨大骚动与混乱的关键事件是，上周肯尼迪策划解雇了CDC主任，而这位主任刚在一个月前才获得参议院确认。两党成员都在质疑：这一切是否意味着肯尼迪违背了不让美国人更难获取疫苗的承诺？这就是此次听证会召开的背景。

It is. And on top of that, he fired all 17 members of the panel of experts who advise the CDC on vaccine policy, and he replaced them with his own people, many of whom are vaccine skeptics like he is. But the big thing, the thing that caused a huge uproar and chaos at the CDC is that last week, Kennedy orchestrated the firing of the director of the CDC just one month after she had been confirmed by the Senate. And the question among members of both parties is, did all of this amount to Kennedy breaking his promise not to make it harder for Americans to get vaccines? And that's the context in which this hearing played out.

谢丽尔，请带我们进入听证会现场，描述这场听证会是如何展开的。

Well, Cheryl, take us inside this hearing room and describe how this hearing starts to unfold.

本次听证会现在开始。

This hearing will come to order.

这是参议院财政委员会举行的听证会，该委员会对卫生与公众服务部拥有管辖权。

So this was a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over the Health and Human Services Department.

今天我们在此听取美国卫生与公众服务部部长小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪的证词。

Today, we meet to hear from US Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior.

表面上是给肯尼迪一个机会，就特朗普总统2026财年预算提案作证。

And it was ostensibly to give Kennedy a chance to testify on president Trump's twenty twenty six budget proposal.

部长先生，我期待今天听取您关于政府'让美国再次健康'举措的陈述。

Mister secretary, I look forward to hearing from you today about the administration's efforts to make America healthy again.

但所有人都心知肚明，这并非真正目的。

But everybody knew that's not what it was really about.

焦点始终会是疫苗问题。

It was always going to be about vaccines.

议题永远绕不开疫苗。

It was always gonna be about vaccines.

非常感谢，怀登参议员。

Thank you very much, senator Wyden.

民主党人立刻展开了猛烈抨击。

Right away, the Democrats came out swinging.

谢谢主席先生。当委员会今日聚集时，美国正深陷一场医疗危机之中。这是最严重的

Thank you, mister chairman. As the committee gathers today, The United States is in the midst of a health care calamity. The largest

委员会首席民主党人罗恩·怀登率先发难。

Ron Wyden, the top Democrat on the committee, kicked things off.

从一开始就很明显，罗伯特·肯尼迪的主要目的是剥夺美国人的疫苗接种权。在确认听证期间，他自称支持安全与科学，但其行为却暴露出对伪科学和边缘阴谋论的坚定推崇。

It's been obvious from the start that Robert Kennedy's primary interest is to take vaccines away from Americans. During his confirmation process, he claimed to be pro safety and pro science, but his actions reveal a steadfast commitment to elevating junk science and fringe conspiracies.

他立即列举了一长串所谓肯尼迪危害全美民众健康的行为。

He right away goes through this long list of things that he says Kennedy has done to endanger the health of all Americans.

民众感到困惑。他们对医疗保健的信任对象充满恐惧。罗伯特·肯尼迪

Families are confused. They're scared about who to trust about their health care. Robert Kennedy

不仅如此，他还指控肯尼迪此前向委员会撒谎。

Not only that, he accused Kennedy of lying to the committee previously.

必须采取这种措施令我深感遗憾。但鉴于证人行为史无前例的性质，我现要求委员会正式让罗伯特·肯尼迪作为证人宣誓。

I think it is unfortunate that I have to do this. But given the unprecedented nature of the witness' behavior, I would ask now that the committee formally swear in Robert Kennedy as a witness.

并采取了非常措施，要求肯尼迪正式宣誓，使其必须承诺在宣誓下如实作证。

And took the extraordinary step of saying he wanted Kennedy sworn in formally so that he would have to vow to tell the truth under oath.

在国会作证时，这难道不是一种预设状态吗？怀登究竟在要求什么？

Isn't that kind of a presumed state of testifying before congress? What what exactly is Wyden asking for? Well,

坦白说，这对肯尼迪是一种侮辱。这是一种预设状态，一旦某人成为内阁部长，就默认他们会如实作证。怀登实际上是在告诉肯尼迪和他的同僚，我不相信你们会对我们说实话。

was kind of an insult to Kennedy, frankly. It is a presumed state, and once someone is a cabinet secretary, it is presumed that they are going to come in and testify truthfully. Wyden is in effect telling Kennedy and his colleagues, I don't believe you're gonna be truthful with us.

怀登参议员，我个人将反对并拒绝你的请求。我们会像对待所有其他来作证的政府证人一样对待这位证人。

Senator Wyden, I will personally object and will reject your request. We will treat this witness as we treat all of the other administration witnesses who come before us.

委员会主席、爱达荷州共和党人迈克·克拉波立即否决了这一提议，并表示，不行，我们不会那么做。

And the chairman of the committee, Mike Crapo, Republican of Idaho, immediately shot it down and said, no. We're not doing that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但怀登继续施压肯尼迪，让他难堪。

But Wyden just went on and continued to press Kennedy and put him on the spot.

主席先生，我已经明确表示，我认为肯尼迪部长执意要让儿童更难获得疫苗，这将导致孩子们因此丧命。

Mister chairman, I've made it clear. I think that secretary Kennedy is dead set on making it harder for children to get vaccines and that kids are gonna die because of it.

这为听证会定下了基调。

And this really set the tone for the hearing.

我希望你能告诉美国人民，为了实现我认为从根本上残酷且违背常识的议程，可以接受多少可预防的儿童死亡。谢谢。

I hope that you will tell the American people how many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel and defies common sense. Thank you,

主席先生，我可以回应吗？

mister chairman. Do I get a reply? Or

如果说肯尼迪走进房间时还不生气，那么在这之后他肯定愤怒了。

And if Kennedy wasn't angry when he walked into the room, he was certainly angry after this.

参议员，你在那个位置上坐了多久？二十年，二十五年，而我们孩子的慢性病发病率上升到了76%，你却一言不发。你从未追问过为什么会发生这种情况，为什么会出现这种局面？

Senator, you've sat in that chair for how long? Twenty, twenty five years while the chronic disease in our children went up to seventy six percent, and you said nothing. You never asked the question why it's happened why is this happening?

而肯尼迪对怀登的回应，谢丽尔，这在听证会上多次出现，尤其是涉及民主党人时，就是在肯尼迪看来，负责监督美国医疗体系的参议员们纵容美国逐渐变成一个越来越不健康的国家。因此，在肯尼迪看来，他们未能履行职责。按他的说法，他们维护了一个糟糕的现状，而他声称自己正试图改变这一现状。其中一部分就是质疑谁该接种哪种疫苗，以及他们是否真的需要接种。

And Kennedy's response to Wyden, Cheryl, and this comes up many times in this hearing, especially when it comes to Democrats, is that in Kennedy's mind, senators responsible for overseeing America's health care system have allowed America to become a sicker and sicker country over time. And therefore, in Kennedy's mind, have failed to do their job. In his telling, they've upheld a bad status quo, which he says he's trying to fix. And part of that is by questioning who gets what vaccine and if they really need it.

是的。我想补充一点。我认为在肯尼迪看来，CDC（疾病控制与预防中心）对慢性病增加负有责任。

Yes. I would add to that. And I would say in Kennedy's mind, the CDC has presided over a rise in chronic disease.

如果我们不终结这种慢性病，我们就是世界上最不健康的国家。这就是为什么我们必须解雇CDC的人员。

If we don't end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world. That's why we have to fire people at CDC.

正是CDC需要被彻底清理和重组，因为他们辜负了美国人民。而监督CDC的参议员们对这种失职行为负有共谋之责。

And it's the CDC that needs to be cleared out and reorganized because they have failed Americans. And the senators who oversaw the CDC were complicit in that failure.

他们没有尽到职责。保障我们的健康本是他们的分内之事。

They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy.

但显而易见的是，委员会中的民主党人并不真正想就CDC和美国的慢性病问题展开讨论，至少此刻不想。他们只想继续谈论他们认为肯尼迪在疫苗问题上违背承诺的行为。

But what becomes clear is that the Democrats on this committee don't really wanna have that conversation about the CDC, chronic illness in this country, at least not in this moment. They wanna keep talking about what they see as Kennedy's broken promises on vaccines.

谢谢您，主席先生。

Thank you, mister chairman.

确实如此。当参议员伊丽莎白·沃伦质询肯尼迪时，这一点表现得尤为明显。

So Yeah. And you really saw that when senator Elizabeth Warren questioned Kennedy.

然后上周，你宣布新冠疫苗不再被批准用于65岁以下的健康人群。

Then last week, you announced the COVID nineteen vaccine is no longer approved for healthy people under the age of 65.

习对他态度强硬，说，你让美国人更难获得疫苗。

Xi came at him really hard and said, you have made it harder for Americans to get vaccines.

任何人都可以接种加强针。

Anybody can get the booster.

你说什么？

I'm sorry?

任何人都可以接种。他

Anybody can get it. He

说，我没有剥夺任何人的疫苗。你错了。我没那么做。

said, I didn't take away anybody's vaccines. You're wrong. I didn't do that.

你只是改变了新冠疫苗的分类。

You just changed the classification of the COVID vaccine.

我没有从人们那里拿走疫苗，参议员。

I'm not taking them away from people, senator.

如果你无法从药房获得，那就是剥夺。

It takes it away if you can't get it from your pharmacy.

然后她说，是的。你确实这么做了，因为当疾控中心不推荐时，药房更难分发这些新冠疫苗。保险公司也更难承保。

And she said, yes. You did because it's harder for pharmacies to give these COVID vaccines out when the CDC isn't recommending them. It's harder for insurers to cover them.

不。他们不能像上个月那样直接走进药房获取疫苗了。

No. They can't walk into a pharmacy the way they could last month and get access

这取决于州的规定。一年前是这样。但他们现在仍然可以获取。

to the It depends on the state. It depends on the state. A year ago But they can still get it.

每个人都能获取。以前是这样。

Everybody can get it. Ago. It

每个人都能获取，参议员。所以你看。

Everybody can get it, senator. So look.

问题是穷人可能负担不起。所以实际上，你切断了人们获取疫苗的途径。而他只是一遍遍重复说，不，我没有。不，我没有。任何想要疫苗的人都能得到。

What's Poor people might not be able to afford them. So in effect, you have cut off people's access to vaccines. And he just kept saying over and over again, no, I didn't. No, I didn't. Anybody who wants a vaccine can get one.

我们应该指出，《时代》的报道发现沃伦在某种程度上是正确的。肯尼迪不愿接受这点，但他说，听着，我们取消健康人群接种建议是有原因的。谢丽尔，我想和你探讨这点。他说，我们这么做是因为这些新冠加强针从未经过临床试验。

We should say Times reporting has found that to a degree Warren is correct. Kennedy doesn't want to accept that, but he's saying, look, there's a reason why we are taking away the recommendation that healthy people get these vaccines. And and I wanna engage you on that, Cheryl. He's saying, we did this because these COVID booster shots have never been put through clinical trials.

我们不会推荐一个没有该适应症临床数据的产品，这不是我该做的吗？

We're not gonna recommend a product for which there's no clinical data for that indication, which is that what I should be doing?

他还说，不希望政府建议人们接种未经此流程的疫苗。据我所知，他在这点上是正确的。

And he's saying, don't want the government recommendation to tell people to get a vaccine that hasn't gone through that. And as best I can tell, he is right about that.

不是吗？他这点是对的，但这有点像第22条军规，迈克尔。原始新冠疫苗经过临床试验。但说到加强针，加强针就像流感疫苗一样是季节性接种

No? He is right about that, but it's kind of a catch 22, Michael. The original COVID vaccines went through clinical trials. But once you come around to boosters, a booster is a seasonal shot just like a flu vaccine that

我们

we

每年都会更新疫苗，以适应当前流行的变异株。如果你对加强针进行临床试验，等试验完成时病毒已经变异，疫苗就失效了。

get every year, and they adjust it to match the current variant that is in circulation. If you do a clinical trial on a booster, by the time that trial is done, the virus has already mutated, and the vaccine is not useful.

没错。用比喻来说，流感季节已经结束了。

Right. To finish the metaphor, the flu season's over.

正是如此。所以这个论点并不完全站得住脚。

Exactly. So that argument does not quite add up.

明白了。沃伦还做了件引人注目的事，他要求肯尼迪部长解释为何试图解雇疾控中心主任——即美国疾病控制与预防中心的负责人。

Gotcha. Warren did something else notable, which was to demand that secretary Kennedy explain exactly why he had tried to fire the director of the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

疾控中心主任如果拒绝签署你对儿童疫苗接种计划的修改，就必须辞职。

Head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule, that she had to resign.

而他说的某句话非常耐人寻味。

And he said something very interesting.

不。我让她辞职是因为我问她：你是个值得信赖的人吗？她回答不是。

No. I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.

他说自己会见了疾控中心主任苏珊·梅诺里斯，问她是否值得信赖，她回答不是，所以解雇了她。

He said that he met with Susan Menoris, the director of the CDC, he asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no, so he fired her.

那么参议员，如果你的员工自称不可信赖，你会要求他们辞职吗？所以很抱歉——

So what if you had an employee who told you they weren't trustworthy, would you ask them to resign, senator? So I'm sorry,

但这并非她公开表态的内容。她曾表示

but this is not what she has said publicly. She has

说 好吧，我对此并不感到惊讶。所以你是说她在撒谎？是的。每次谈话都

said Well, I'm not surprised about So you're saying she's lying? Yes. Every conversation Which

这有点不太合理。

kind of doesn't make a lot of sense.

没错。这与人性的本质并不完全吻合。想象一位政府高级卫生官员走进她上司的办公室说，不，我不可信。

Right. It doesn't exactly match human nature. To imagine a senior government health official walking into her boss's office and saying, no. I'm not trustworthy.

对。因此，为了尽职调查，我询问了她的律师，你知道，事情是这样的吗？他们回答，不，这是虚假且荒谬透顶的。

Right. So doing my due diligence, I asked her lawyers, you know, is this what happened? And they said, no. It's false and patently ridiculous.

而且，这一时刻似乎开始清晰地表明，对于委员会中的民主党人来说，这次听证会旨在通过指出他们所认为的肯尼迪作为卫生部长的不诚实行为，在某些情况下甚至是他的无能，来削弱其合法性。正如这次交流所揭示的，这是一种可信度的缺失。CDC主任自认不可信的说法。

And and it feels like this moment starts to make clear that for the Democrats on this committee, this hearing is an exercise in delegitimizing Kennedy as secretary of health by pointing out what they see as his dishonesty, in some cases, what they see as his incompetence, and as this exchange lays bare, a kind of lack of credibility. The suggestion that the CDC director offered herself up is not trustworthy.

没错。还有对事实掌握不足。弗吉尼亚州的参议员马克·华纳非常尖锐地质问肯尼迪

Right. And also a lack of command of the facts. You know, senator Mark Warner of Virginia asked Kennedy very pointedly

你是否承认有一百万美国人死于COVID？

Do you do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?

你知道疫情期间有多少人死于COVID吗？

Do you know how many people died of COVID during the pandemic?

我不知道有多少

I don't know how

人死了。你是卫生与公众服务部长。你对有多少美国人死于COVID毫无概念？我不知道

many died. You're the secretary of health and human services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? I don't

我想没人知道这一点，因为CDC发布的数据混乱不堪，而且存在大量不良动机。你和这些模型都不知道

think anybody knows that because the there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC, and there was lot of adverse incentives. You And these are model don't know the

有多少美国人死于COVID的答案。这是卫生与公众服务部部长。你认为疫苗

answer of how many Americans died from COVID. This is the secretary of health and human services. Do you think the vaccine

但肯尼迪实际上提出了不同的观点。他在质疑数据。他说，嗯，你知道，他们可能报告了一百万，但基本上，我不相信。嗯。这并没有让参议员沃纳满意。

But Kennedy, frankly, was making a different point. He was questioning the data. He was saying, well, you know, they may have reported a million, but basically, I don't believe it. Mhmm. That didn't satisfy senator Warner.

你怎么能这么无知？

How can you be that ignorant?

在我看来，民主党人似乎在精心策划他们的论点，即肯尼迪对美国人的健康构成威胁。他们每个人都从他在疫苗问题上所做事情的不同方面入手。民主党人以这种方式攻击肯尼迪并不令人意外。嗯。最大的问题是，共和党人会说什么？

It seemed to me like Democrats were carefully orchestrating their case that Kennedy is a danger to the health of Americans. Each one of them kind of taking a different aspect of what he did with vaccines. And it wasn't really a surprise that Democrats attacked Kennedy in this way. Mhmm. The big question was, what would the Republicans say?

你知道，特朗普总统曾令人难忘地说，他会让鲍比——他这样称呼他——在健康问题上随心所欲。我心中的问题是，共和党人是否认为肯尼迪可能有点太放纵了？他们中的一些人确实这么认为。

You know, president Trump memorably said that he was gonna let Bobby, as he calls him, go wild on health. And the question in my mind Republicans think that Kennedy may have gone a little too wild? And some of them think that he has.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

嘿。等一下。这是属于你的一分钟。这是你生命中这一天的一分钟。这是你玩耍的日子。

Hey. Hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life on this day. It's your day to play.

去玩耍，去创造，去行动，去穿越，去探索。这是你分享的早晨，你塑造的周末，去烹饪，去沉浸，去聆听，去等待。这是你休息、滋养、成长的身体。这是你的思想。你知道吗？

To play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your morning to share, your weekend to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen to, to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind. You know?

这是你的地方，你的国家，你热爱的生活，去崛起，去梦想，去改变。这是你的世界，和其他人的一样。这是你去理解的世界。《纽约时报》。更多信息请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

It's your place, your country, your life to love, to rise, to dream, to change. It's your world as much as anyone's. It's your world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

那么，谢丽尔，让我们来看看听证会上这些共和党人如何决定对待肯尼迪及其疫苗立场。

So, Cheryl, let's turn to how these Republicans at this hearing decide to handle Kennedy and his approach to vaccines.

迈克尔，听证会上有两类共和党人。一类是意料之中的共和党人。

So, Michael, there were two kinds of Republicans at this hearing. There were the unsurprising Republicans.

特朗普总统和肯尼迪部长坚定承诺要让美国再次健康起来。

President Trump and secretary Kennedy have made a steadfast commitment to make America healthy again.

他们想谈论除疫苗外的所有话题。

Who wanted to talk about everything but vaccines.

我很感谢您对农村医疗转型计划的评价，这确实是一项重要举措

I appreciate the comments you've made about the rural health transformation program. That is something

他们向肯尼迪询问了农村医疗问题。

They asked Kennedy about rural health care.

听你说你同意取消农业监管条例

Hearing you told me that you agreed to leave farming regulations

关于农业政策的问题。

about agriculture policy.

你认为新冠疫情被政治化了吗？

Do you believe COVID nineteen was politicized?

整个过程都被政治化了。

And the whole process was politicized.

他们基本上是在问些温和的问题。嗯。令人意外的是，共和党人反而在疫苗政策和他所做的决策上对他提出了尖锐质疑。

They were basically throwing softballs. Mhmm. The surprising Republicans were the ones who really questioned him hard on vaccine policy and on the decisions that he had made.

我们应该从哪些参议员开始讨论？比如卡西迪参议员？

And where should we start with those senators? Senator Cassidy.

我认为应该从比尔·卡西迪参议员说起。

I think you have to begin with senator Bill Cassidy.

谢谢。我会试着让气氛稍微平和些。我是以医生而非参议员身份参与讨论的。

Thank you. I'll try and restore a little calm here. And I'm approaching this as a doctor, not as a senator.

这位路易斯安那州共和党人是医生出身，担任参议院卫生委员会主席。卡西迪是疫苗接种的坚定支持者。在肯尼迪的提名确认过程中，他曾为是否投赞成票而备受煎熬。

He's a Republican from Louisiana. He's a doctor. He's chairman of the Senate Health Committee. Cassidy is a fierce proponent of vaccination. And back during the confirmation process, Cassidy was agonizing over whether or not to confirm Kennedy.

我关心儿童健康、老年人健康以及我们所有人的健康。

I am concerned about children's health, seniors' health, all of our health.

最终卡西迪选择支持肯尼迪。但周四的听证会显示，他仍对肯尼迪深感不安。嗯。他几乎是在试图通过引入特朗普总统来设套——这位主导了新冠疫苗研发的前总统，与被卡西迪安排形成鲜明对比的疫苗批评者肯尼迪。

Ultimately, Cassidy decided to vote for Kennedy. But what we saw on Thursday is that he is still deeply uneasy with Kennedy. Mhmm. And he really tried to entrap Kennedy almost by bringing in president Trump, who oversaw the development of the COVID vaccines and pitting him against Kennedy who has been so critical of the COVID vaccines.

具体说明卡西迪如何挑动特朗普与肯尼迪对立。

Just explain exactly how Cassidy is trying to pit Trump and Kennedy against each other.

特朗普总统因'曲速行动'疫苗计划值得获得诺贝尔奖。

President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed.

卡西迪称特朗普应因'曲速行动'获诺贝尔奖，这个快速疫苗计划正是新冠疫苗得以问世的推手。

Cassidy says Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed, the fast track vaccine initiative that produced the COVID vaccines in the first place.

我们在全球范围内拯救了数百万生命，节省了数万亿美元。我们重启了经济体系。这是一项非凡的成就。

We saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars. We reopened economy economies. An incredible accomplishment.

他想知道，肯尼迪先生，您是否同意？

And he wants to know, mister Kennedy, do you agree?

部长先生，您是否认同总统因'极速行动'值得获得诺贝尔奖？

Mister secretary, do you agree with me that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?

毫无疑问，参议员。这太了不起了。请允许我提问。

Absolutely, senator. That's phenomenal. Let me ask you.

肯尼迪表示肯定。绝对同意，参议员。我认为您确实该得诺贝尔奖。但卡西迪并不买账。

So Kennedy says, yes. Absolutely, senator. I do think you should win a Nobel Prize. And Cassidy is not buying it.

您曾发起多起诉讼试图限制新冠疫苗的获取。当您作为律师试图限制疫苗获取时，却对极速行动评价如此之高，这令我惊讶。

You engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. It surprises me that you think so highly of operation warp speed when as an attorney you attempted to restrict access.

但请允许我提问。我很乐意解释原因。

But let me ask. I'm happy to I'm happy to explain why.

我还剩三分三十秒。好吧。这也让我感到意外。

I have I have three minutes and thirty seconds left. Alright. It also surprises me.

没错。卡西迪指出，你不能一边宣称极速行动和特朗普的新冠疫苗是划时代成就，一边又做出种种贬低新冠疫苗及其技术的举动。他是在说不能两头占便宜。

Right. Cassidy is saying you can't simultaneously claim that operation warp speed and Trump's COVID vaccines are this monumental achievement and then do all these things that cast aspersions on the COVID vaccine, the technology behind it. He's saying you can't have it both ways.

对。但卡西迪自己也在试图左右逢源。他既想向特朗普总统示好，说他该得诺贝尔奖，又试图强硬施压特朗普的卫生部长，逼迫他走向不愿接受的疫苗立场。

Right. But Cassidy himself is trying to have it both ways. He's trying to make nice to president Trump, saying he deserves a Nobel Prize, but he's also trying to lean hard into Trump's health secretary and push him in a direction toward vaccines that he doesn't wanna go.

没错。此刻批评肯尼迪的唯一方式，就是同时为特朗普辩护。

Right. The only way to criticize Kennedy in this moment is by somehow simultaneously bracing Trump.

正是如此。

Exactly.

巴拉索参议员。谢谢，女士谢谢，主席先生。部长先生，感谢您的

Senator Barassel. Thanks, miss thanks, mister chairman. Mister secretary, thanks thanks for being

我们看到另一位共和党参议员，同样是医生的怀俄明州约翰·巴拉索，采用了完全相同的策略。

And we see another Republican senator, also a doctor, John Barrasso of Wyoming, use exactly the same strategy.

我认为特朗普总统最伟大的成就之一，是他在新冠疫情上采取的大胆而成功的行动。但这并非美国总统计画疾病与疫苗问题的首例。

I believe one of president Trump's greatest achievements was his bold and successful actions on COVID. But this wasn't the first time an American president acted boldly to address disease and vaccines. It's a

他将特朗普总统比作独立战争时期的乔治·华盛顿，当时华盛顿下令全军接种天花疫苗。

He compares president Trump to George Washington during the revolutionary war when Washington ordered all of his troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

与特朗普总统一样，我相信华盛顿总统在国家危难时刻果断采取行动保护了美国民众的生命。

And like president Trump, I believe president Washington acted decisively to protect Americans' lives at a time of great national peril.

他表示：我支持疫苗，疫苗确实有效。

He says I support vaccines. Vaccines work.

肯尼迪部长，在您的确认听证会上，您承诺将坚持疫苗的最高标准。但此后我深感忧虑，公众已目睹麻疹疫情爆发。

Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks.

领导力但是

Leadership But

现在他说，我非常担心你，肯尼迪部长。

now he says, I'm very concerned about you, secretary Kennedy.

美国人不知道该依靠谁。

Americans don't know who to rely on.

他告诉他，我听到来自怀俄明州的医生和父母们的反馈。他们很担忧，很困惑。他们不希望这些传染病卷土重来。

He tells him, I'm hearing from physicians, from parents back home in Wyoming. They're worried. They're confused. They don't want these infectious diseases to come back.

如果我们想让美国再次健康起来，就不能让公共卫生受到损害。那么你能解释一下你将采取哪些措施来确保疫苗指南是清晰、基于证据且可信的吗？

If we're gonna make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. So could you explain what steps you're gonna be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence based, and trustworthy.

我们将使其在历史上首次变得清晰、基于证据且可信。对大多数人来说，

We're gonna make it clear, evidence based, and trustworthy for the first time in history. For most now,

你 于是突然间，随着参议员巴拉索这一连串尖锐的问题，我们看到卡西迪参议员不再是唯一一个公开对肯尼迪的疫苗方法是否可容忍感到痛苦的人。

you And so suddenly, with this very pointed set of questions from senator Barrasso, we see that senator Cassidy is no longer alone in being kind of openly anguished over whether or not Kennedy's approach to vaccines is tolerable.

没错。还有第三位参议员。

Right. And there's a third senator.

我不是医生，也不是出庭律师。我是个无聊的管理顾问。

I'm not a doctor. I'm not a trial lawyer. I'm a boring management consultant.

第三位共和党人，北卡罗来纳州的参议员汤姆·提利斯，他采取了略微不同的策略。他说，嘿。肯尼迪部长，我对你的做法有点困惑。一个月前，当我们投票确认CDC主任时，你告诉我们她很出色、很棒，你信任她，而且

The third Republican, senator Tom Tillis of North Carolina, who takes a slightly different tack. He says, hey. I'm a little confused here, secretary Kennedy, by what you're doing. A month ago, when we voted to confirm the CDC director, you told us she was brilliant and terrific and you trusted her and

我 我不明白你怎么能在四周内从一个拥有无可挑剔科学资历的公共卫生专家，一个长期拥护MAHA价值观、关怀、富有同情心且才华横溢的微生物学家，变成四周后解雇她，因为

I I don't see how you go over four weeks from a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, a long time champion of MAHA values, caring and compassionate and brilliant microbiologist, microbiologist. And four and weeks later, fire her because it

你怎么突然就转变态度了？是什么原因导致的？

How did you have this turnabout all of a sudden? What caused this?

嗯。

Mhmm.

作为曾为高管提供招聘策略建议的人，首先我建议在面试时直接询问对方是否诚实，而不是在我们耗费美国参议院四周时间确认人选后才...

So as somebody who advised executives on hiring strategies, number one, I would suggest in the interview, you ask them if they're truthful rather than four weeks after we took the time of the US senate to confirm the person just

然后他列举了一系列类似的问题。

And he ticks off a number of questions sort of in that vein.

我也认为你的某些陈述似乎与之前听证会上的说法矛盾。你说过要让卫生部的科学家自主工作，我只想看到你落实这一点的证据。

I I do also believe that some of your statements seem to contradict what you said in the prior hearing. You said you're going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I'd just like to see evidence where you've done that.

他表示自己完全被肯尼迪的言行不一搞糊涂了

He's saying that he is frankly confused by Kennedy's words and his actions and whether or not they match

呢。嗯。

up. Mhmm.

稍后我会提到书面质询环节，比尔，届时你可以提交问题答复并补充任何想做的陈述。

You'll have the opportunity to submit written responses to questions, which I'm gonna reference in a minute, and you could make any further statements that you would like to make at that point, Bill.

我想还是对在场各位仁慈些，现在休会吧。

I think I'll have mercy on everybody here, and let us adjourn.

好的。明智的选择。

Alright. Wise choice.

谢丽尔，当这场听证会结束时，真正让人觉得新鲜的是房间里发生的事——正如你之前提到的。并非民主党人对RFK感到厌恶，因为他们从他获得提名那一刻起就反感他。是的，他们的厌恶感加剧了。真正值得注意的是共和党人对肯尼迪的公开不满，以及他们提出的似乎旨在某种程度上诋毁肯尼迪的策略。问题是，这将导致什么结果？

Cheryl, when this hearing was over, what felt genuinely new about what had happened in this room was and you had said this earlier. Not that Democrats are disgusted with RFK because they were disgusted from the moment he was nominated. And, yes, their disgust has intensified. It was the Republican dismay with Kennedy, the open dismay, and the articulation of a strategy that seemed aimed to discredit Kennedy to a degree. And the question is, where does that lead?

如果特朗普对肯尼迪产生不满并迫使他辞去卫生部长职务，那将产生巨大影响，但我们没有证据表明这种情况会发生。'让美国再次健康'运动极具影响力，目前看来像是特朗普联盟的重要支柱，对他而言至关重要。因此更可能的情况是，肯尼迪将继续留任，并推动整个共和党对疫苗持更强烈的怀疑和批评态度。

If Trump were to ever sour on Kennedy and to push him out as health secretary, that would be enormously consequential, but we have no evidence that that is ever gonna happen. The make America healthy again movement is exceptionally influential, and it feels like a tentpole of Trump's coalition at this point. Just really important to him. And so what seems more likely is Kennedy will stay in this job and keep pushing the entire Republican Party towards greater skepticism and criticism of vaccines.

是的。我认为我们已经看到这种趋势了。疫苗接种的党派分歧正在各州显现。就在本周，佛罗里达州宣布将成为首个取消儿童入学疫苗要求的州。

Yeah. I mean, I think we're already seeing that. We're already seeing the partisan split over vaccination now playing out in the states. Just this week, Florida announced that it would be the first state to eliminate its childhood school vaccine requirements.

这事的严重性值得强调——佛罗里达州不再要求学生接种麻疹、脊髓灰质炎和肝炎疫苗，这对这个人口大州而言将是重大改变。

And just to talk about what a big deal that is. I mean, Florida not asking students to get measles vaccine, polio vaccine, hepatitis vaccine would be a very meaningful change to a hugely populous state.

没错。不仅是人口大州，这里还有大量老年人口和庞大的旅游业。我们知道当疫苗接种率下降时，传染病就会卷土重来。与此同时，一些蓝州也表示将拒绝CDC的疫苗建议，转而采用自己更严格或更激进的疫苗接种方案，这些州包括俄勒冈、华盛顿和加利福尼亚。

That's right. Not only that, a populous state, but a state with a lot of elderly people, a state with a big tourist industry. And we know that when vaccination rates dip, infectious disease comes back. At the same time, a collection of blue states have also said they're going to reject CDC vaccine recommendations in favor of their own stricter or more aggressive recommendations for vaccination. Those states are Oregon, Washington, and California.

它们已结成联盟提出自己的公共卫生建议。马萨诸塞州也表示将发布独立的公共卫生指南，不再依赖联邦政府的建议。

They have kind of banded together in a coalition to put forth their own public health recommendations. And also Massachusetts has said, it will put forth its own public health recommendations and no longer rely on those issued by the federal government.

对。某种程度上，各州已在争先恐后地适应罗伯特·F·肯尼迪及其疫苗怀疑论创造的新局面。有些州像佛罗里达那样正式采纳了他的怀疑立场，而华盛顿、加利福尼亚、俄勒冈等州则急于与之划清界限。

Right. And in a sense, you're seeing states already scrambling to inhabit this new world that Robert F. Kennedy junior and his skeptical approach to vaccines has created. Some are formally adopting his skepticism like Florida has. Others, Washington, California, Oregon, are racing to insulate themselves from it.

但这些行动清晰表明，地方政府如今强烈意识到自己正身处一个由肯尼迪塑造的新世界。

But, clearly, those actions crystallize just how much local governments now feel like they're living in a new world, and it gets Kennedy's world.

确实。自CDC成立近七十年来，它一直是美国的公共卫生权威。虽然不能为国家制定政策——疫苗政策属于各州权限——但各州历来遵循CDC的建议。

Yes. I mean, for nearly seventy years since the CDC was established, it has been the public health authority for the nation. It can't set policy for the nation. Vaccine policy is the province of the states. But states have always followed the CDC's recommendations.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们现在正目睹这一切分崩离析。在华盛顿，那些七个月前全部投票支持肯尼迪的共和党人中间正进行着某种清算——至少持严重保留意见的卡西迪等人如今意识到，他们当初担忧的事情正在真实发生，而阻止已为时过晚。

And we are now seeing that fall apart. And here in Washington, there's kind of a reckoning going on among these Republicans who all voted for Kennedy seven months ago, at least one Cassidy with serious reservations, who are now recognizing that the thing they feared is actually happening, and it's too late to stop it.

好的，谢丽尔，非常感谢你。我们很感激。谢谢你，迈克尔。我们稍后回来。以下是今天你还需要知道的其他消息。

Well, Cheryl, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.

《纽约时报》报道称，司法部已对美联储理事丽莎·库克展开欺诈调查，这加剧了特朗普总统试图解雇她的行动。白宫指控库克在抵押贷款申请中虚假声称两处不同房产均为其主要住所。但周四调查新闻网站ProPublica披露，特朗普内阁中至少有三名成员在抵押文件中有相同行为，表明特朗普对库克行为的愤怒具有高度选择性。温馨提示：我们每周日将为您带来全新内容。今年整个秋季，我的同事吉尔伯特·克鲁兹将与轮换的评论家、编辑、记者和作家们畅谈艺术与文化。

The Times reports that the Justice Department has opened a fraud investigation into Federal Reserve governor Lisa Cook, escalating president Trump's efforts to fire her. The White House has accused Cook of falsely claiming in mortgage applications that two separate properties were both her primary residence. But on Thursday, the investigative news site ProPublica reported that at least three members of Trump's own cabinet have committed the same act in mortgage documents, suggesting that Trump's outrage over Cook's conduct is highly selective. A quick reminder, we're bringing you something new on Sundays. All this fall, my colleague, Gilbert Cruz, talks arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics, editors, reporters, and writers.

本周正值新学年开始之际，吉尔伯特将对话《歪歪路小学》系列及小说《洞》的作者路易斯·萨克尔，并与《纽约时报书评》编辑萨迪·斯坦探讨那些能让孩子爱上阅读的书籍。本期节目由罗伯·齐普科、奥利维亚·纳特和亚历克斯·斯特恩制作，蕾切尔·奎斯特编辑，克里斯·伍德负责音频工程。以上就是本期《每日播报》，我是迈克尔·巴巴罗。

This week, just in time for the new academic year, Gilbert speaks with Lewis Saker, author of the Wayside School series and the novel Holes, and to an editor at the Times Book Review, Sadie Stein, about the books that can make kids fall in love with reading. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Olivia Natt, and Alex Stern. It was edited by Rachel Questor and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bobarro.

周一见。

See you on Monday.