她冒险发声，只为成为母亲

我是戴恩·布鲁格勒。

I'm Dane Brugler.

我为《The Athletic》报道NFL选秀。

I cover the NFL draft for The Athletic.

我们的选秀指南因为包含了海量信息而获得了‘野兽’这个名字。

Our draft guide picked up the name The Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included.

我正在查看成千上万的球员，并撰写数百份球探报告。

I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of scouting reports.

我从去年的选秀开始就一直在跟进今年的选秀。

I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft.

‘野兽’里面有很多内容是你在其他地方根本找不到的。

There is a lot in the beast that you simply can't find anywhere else.

这是《The Athletic》和《纽约时报》提供的那种深入而独特的新闻报道。

This is the kind of in-depth unique journalism you get from The Athletic and The New York Times.

你可以在nytimes.com/subscribe订阅。

You can subscribe at nytimes.com slash subscribe.

来自《纽约时报》，我是娜塔莉·基托夫。

From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroeff.

这是周日的《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily on Sunday.

在歌剧界，莉丝·达维森是超级巨星，毫无疑问。

In the world of opera, Lise Davidsen is a superstar, full stop.

这位挪威女高音被誉为我们这个时代最伟大的歌手之一，拥有百万分之一的嗓音。

The Norwegian soprano has been described as one of the greatest singers of our time with a one in a million voice.

今年春天，她在纽约大都会歌剧院主演了罕见的售罄场次《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》，这场演出获得了广泛好评。

This spring, she's been leading a rare sold out run at the Metropolitan Opera in New York City of Tristan und Isolde, a performance that's gotten rave reviews across the board.

但达维森如今也站在了一个十字路口，因为九个月前，她生下了双胞胎。

But Davidsen is also at a crossroads because nine months ago, she gave birth to twins.

这让她开始质疑自己与事业、艺术以及对生活应有形态的期待之间的关系。

And that has her questioning her relationship to her career, her art, and her expectations for what her life should look like.

今天，我与作家、编辑兼前歌剧评论家扎卡里·沃尔夫交谈，聊聊他与莉丝·达维森关于为人父母、职业追求，以及在创作艺术的同时平衡这两者的对话。

Today, I talk with writer, editor, and former opera critic, Zachary Woolfe, about his conversation with Lise Davidsen on parenthood, vocation, and navigating the two while also making art.

今天是4月5日，星期日。

It's Sunday, April 5.

扎克·伍尔夫，欢迎来到《周日每日》。

Zach Woolfe, welcome to The Sunday Daily.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thank you for having me.

我只想说，能坐下来和你聊这个话题真是太棒了。

So I quickly just wanna say how very cool it is to be able to sit down with you and talk about this.

我一直把你当作古典音乐的百科全书。

I think of you as an encyclopedia of sorts of classical music.

多年来，你一直在《纽约时报》报道这个领域。

You've covered this topic for many years at the Times.

从我们多次的交谈中，我知道的不仅是你对这个领域的了解有多深，还有你对这个世界的热情有多强烈。

And I know from many conversations with you, not just how much you know about it, but how extremely passionate you are about this world.

感谢你来到这里。

So thank you for being here.

这是我的荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

既然如此，就请你为我们做个向导吧。

So with that as your intro, be our guide here.

对于那些不太了解歌剧世界的人来说，莉塞·戴维森是谁？

For those of us who aren't as tuned in to the world of opera, who is Lise Davidsen?

当莉塞·戴维森大约十年前突然出现在歌剧界时，就像一颗彗星划过天际。

So when Lise Davidsen kind of burst onto the opera scene, like, ten years ago, it was kind of like this comet.

这是一种世代难遇的天赋。

This is a once in a generation talent.

她不仅唱得美，而且演唱的那些角色几乎没人能胜任，而她却达到了几乎无人能及的水准。

This is a person who's not only singing beautifully, but she's singing the kind of roles that almost no one can sing, and she's singing them at a level that almost none of those people can get to.

我的意思是，在她专精的

I mean, in the kind

那种大型瓦格纳角色中，她让你仿佛回到了早期最伟大的歌手时代

of big Wagner parts that she specializes in, she brings you back to the greatest singers of, like, early in

二十世纪。

the twentieth century.

就像那些你只从录音中听说过的人，他们是最棒的演唱这些作品的人。

Like, the kind of people you know only from recordings, but who are, like, the best people ever to have sung these things.

有没有哪一个角色让她一举成名？

Was there one role that put her on the map?

她演唱的很多角色都是瓦格纳的作品，但还有一部理查德·施特劳斯的歌剧叫《纳克索斯的阿里阿德涅》。

So, like, a lot of the roles she sings are Wagner, but there was also this opera by Richard Strauss called Ariadne of Naxos.

正是这部歌剧真正让她声名鹊起。

And that was the opera that really kind of put her on the map.

她演唱了这部作品，立刻在全球范围内引发了轰动，人们很久以来都没有听到过如此丰满、华丽、丰富的嗓音了。

She sang this, and the buzz was immediately kind of worldwide that somebody was singing this part with kind of this plushness and opulence and richness that people had not heard in many, many years.

她的嗓音究竟有什么特别之处？

And what is it about her voice that makes her so special?

比如她在瓦格纳《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》中饰演的伊索尔德，目前正在纽约大都会歌剧院热卖的全新制作中演唱这个角色。

For parts like Isolde in Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, which she's singing in the sold out run of this new production at the Metropolitan Opera.

你需要这种力量，所以你基本上得把这些长矛投向观众。

You need this strength, so you need to basically be throwing these spears into the audience.

但对于丽莎·戴维森来说，这些长矛仿佛是由柔和的光线制成的。

But for Lise Davidsen, it's like these spears are made of this, like, kind of soft light.

我的意思是，既有力量和气势，却又充满光辉。

I mean, so there's a sense of the strength and the power, and yet it's luminous.

有一种柔和感。

There's a softness.

有一种美，一种圆润的质感。

There's a beauty, this roundedness.

有些人唱伊索尔德时只会嘶吼，或者勉强唱完，声音紧绷，未必动听。

I mean, there's people who can scream through Isolde or who can get through it, and it's pushed through and it's not pretty necessarily.

她却能让声音像激光一样，却是一道柔和的激光。

She manages to make it's kind of like a laser, but a soft laser.

这真的非常罕见。

It's really rare.

我的意思是，在歌剧院里，我从未经历过类似的事情。

I mean, I've never quite experienced something like it in the opera house.

我能想象，能够发出那样的声音，一部分是训练的结果。

I can imagine that being able to produce that sound, some of it is training.

对吧？

Right?

但还有一部分是天生的天赋。

But some of it is just like a natural gift.

有些人天生就具备一副惊人的嗓音条件，这非常神秘。

There is some people who are born with the kind of materials of an amazing voice, and it's very mysterious.

这一切都源于内在。

It's all interior.

那些纤细的声带，还有支撑呼吸的肌肉，比如膈肌等等。

There are these kinda, like, delicate little vocal cords, and then there's, like, kind of the muscles that are supporting the breath, like the diaphragm and all of that.

听起来像是运动。

Sounds athletic.

完全是一样的。

It's exactly the same.

我的意思是，任何运动员都必须经过多年甚至多年的训练才能达到那个水平。

I mean, any athlete has to train for years and years to get there.

但如果你没有那种天生的条件，如果在某个方面你没有天赋，那么无论接受多少训练都无法让你达到那个境界。

But if you don't have that natural stuff, if you're not gifted at a certain point with something, then all the training in the world is not gonna get you there.

这其中很大一部分是心理因素，因为这些肌肉都位于体内，因此还需要极大的自信才能走进大都会歌剧院。

And a lot is psychological because it's these, like, muscles that are all very internal and therefore also, like, kind of requires this, like, immense confidence to walk into the Met.

那里没有麦克风，有四千个座位，你知道自己必须演唱这个角色，而所有人都听过世界上顶尖歌手的录音，你必须与他们比肩。

There's no microphones, 4,000 seats, and knowing that you have to sing this role that all these people have heard recordings of, the best singers in the world, and you have to match up to that.

因此，要调动如此精妙复杂的生理机制所需的自信，真是非同寻常。

So the confidence that is required to kind of deploy this incredibly intricate physical apparatus is pretty incredible.

好的，扎克。

Okay, Zach.

我想小心翼翼地问一个问题。

I wanna ask this delicately.

我不是想学蒂莫西·柴勒梅德那样，但显然我们读过相关报道。

I don't mean to Timothy Chalamet this thing, but obviously, we've read the coverage.

大都会歌剧院一直面临困境。

The Met has been struggling.

歌剧本身也一直面临困境。

Opera has been struggling.

我想知道这种状况如何影响她的明星地位。

And I'm wondering how that dynamic bears on her stardom.

当蒂莫西·柴勒梅德在奥斯卡前的一次采访中不小心提到，他不希望电影变成像歌剧和芭蕾那样日益小众的艺术形式时，他遭到了很多批评，但他是对的。

So when Timothee Chalamet got caught on this interview a little bit before the Oscars saying that he didn't want film to become like opera and ballet basically, like, an increasingly niche art form.

我的意思是，这些机构确实正在挣扎。

He got a lot of flack, but he was right.

门票销售下滑了。

I mean, these institutions are struggling.

观众人数减少了。

Ticket sales are down.

像《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》这样一票难求的演出非常罕见。

Sellouts like this Tristan und Isolde run are rare.

这使得像莉丝这样的人才成为愈发重要的资源。

And that is what makes stars like Lise an ever more important kind of commodity.

这就是为什么大都会歌剧院如此倚重她。

I mean, that's why the Met is putting so much on her.

他们对她寄予了厚望。

They're betting so much on her.

今年九月，他们将用她的演出拉开新季序幕。

In September, they're gonna be opening their season with her.

几年后，当他们上演瓦格纳的四部歌剧《尼伯龙根的指环》时，她将担任主演。

She's gonna be starring when they do Wagner's four opera ring cycle in a few years.

她才是这部作品的主角。

She is the star of it.

因此，大都会歌剧院的未来在很大程度上寄托在莉丝·戴维森及其嗓音的健康状况上。

So a lot of the Met's future is sort of banking on Lise Davidsen and the health of her voice.

我猜，这正是她决定怀孕如此充满矛盾的原因之一。

And that, I assume, is part of the reason why her decision to get pregnant was so fraught.

你和她就这个问题深入聊过。

This is something that you talked about with her at length.

你能解释一下，当她在歌剧界不断上升时，她是如何思考要孩子的吗？

Can you just explain how she was thinking about having kids as she is rising in the opera world?

她说，

Well, what she said was that

我姐姐有一个儿子。

My sister, she has a a son.

她的两个兄弟姐妹很早就有了孩子，但对她来说，她的天赋是嗓音。

While her two siblings had sort of had children early on, for her, I mean, the gift was her voice.

我觉得既然我拥有唱歌的机会，并且在事业上走到了这一步，我就觉得自己被赋予了。

I felt that since I was had the opportunity of singing and since I got this far in my career, I felt I had been given

那就是那就是

That was that was

那是上天给我的礼物，你知道的？

was my gift, you know?

那是你的事。

Your thing.

那是我的事。

That was my thing.

那是

It was

别人对生孩子的感受，就是她对嗓音的感受。

What other people felt about having kids is what she felt about her voice.

很多年来，我一直被这种想法说服，并且对此感到非常非常开心。

And for many years, I was persuaded by that and very, very happy about that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为我觉得

Because I think it's

这种对嗓音的承诺对她来说是一种满足。

That commitment to the voice was kind of fulfilling to her.

是的。

Yeah.

我当然选择了它。

I've chosen it, of course.

并不是有人强迫我，但这一直是我的梦想。

It's not like anyone who forced me, but it's been my dream.

这一直是我想要做的事情。

It's been what I wanted to do.

还有你提到的另一个方面，那就是作为歌手在这一水平上使用嗓音的运动性。

There's also this other aspect of this which you've described, which is the athletic nature of being a singer and using your voice at this level.

所以我想问问怀孕可能对这一点产生什么影响。

And so I wanna ask about the potential for pregnancy to affect that.

你能谈谈她是如何看待这个问题的吗？

Can you just talk about how she's thinking about that?

我认为这正是她不想这么做的一大原因。

I think that she that was a huge part of not wanting to do this.

我的意思是，声音是内在的、身体的，而且充满神秘。

I mean, the voice is internal and bodily and mysterious.

是的。

Yep.

所以当你谈到巨大的荷尔蒙变化、身体尺寸的改变，或者剖腹产的切口时，身体的每一个变化——这些变化原本都被精密地调整为以某种方式运作——

So when you talk about huge hormone changes, when you talk about changes of size, when you talk about the incisions of if you have to have a C section, every single change in the body, which has kind of been intricately tricked out to work a certain way

对。

Yeah.

一旦你开始干扰这些，可能会带来灾难性的后果，对一些歌手来说确实如此。

Once you start messing with that, it could be disastrous and has been for some singers.

几年前，我曾与一位非常著名的女中音歌手交谈过，她的音域比女高音稍低，怀孕和生孩子的过程让她失去了嗓音。

I spoke a couple of years ago to a very eminent singer, this mezzo soprano, so a little bit lower than a soprano, for whom the process of getting pregnant and having the baby caused her to lose her voice.

这真是令人震惊。

And it's been Oh, wow.

啊

A

缓慢地恢复，但达不到原先的水平。

slow climb back to not the same level.

因此，像这样的故事确实让所有考虑生育的女歌手心有余悸。

And so there are stories like that that really hang over all women singers who are thinking of having a baby.

好的。

Alright.

鉴于这一切，怀孕和继续下去确实存在诸多现实风险，那是什么让她改变了主意？

Given all of that, the very real potential downsides of doing this, of going forward with pregnancy, what made her change her mind?

嗯，她遇到了一个叫本的男人，他想要孩子。

Well, she met a guy named Ben, and he wanted to have kids.

我当时就想，如果你想要孩子，你应该去找别人。

I was like, oh, if you want kids, you should just find someone else.

你知道，这非常像是

You know, it's a very sort

那场对话是什么时候发生的？

of When did that conversation happen?

非常早。

Very early.

我想因为我们是成年人。

I think because we're grown ups.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

孩子。

Kids.

我当时想，我不知道，但如果你想要孩子，你应该去找别人，因为我深知这有多重要。

And I was like, I don't know, but if you want, you should find someone else because I I know how important it is.

如果你真的想要，我我

If if that's what you want, I I

因为他说了这很重要

because he said this is import

哦，他本来想，但他说不。

Oh, he wanted to and he was like, no.

不。

No.

没那么重要。

It's not that important.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但她爱上了他，当时她正在纽约演唱施特劳斯的《玫瑰骑士》。

But she fell in love with him, and she was actually back in New York here singing in Strauss' De Rosen Cavalier.

她演唱的角色正是一个首次面对时光流逝的女性。

And she was singing actually the role of this woman who is first confronting the passage of time.

他们当时在中央公园散步。

And they were walking in Central Park.

她和本。

She and Ben.

她在纽约排练和演出期间，和本一起在中央公园散步。

She and Ben were kind of walking in Central Park while she was here in New York for the rehearsals and performances.

我想我当时只是觉得，也许我可以试试看。

And I think just kind of thought, well, maybe I wanna give this a try.

很难说这是否是因为我遇到了对的人，突然间有了支持，才开始这样想。

It's something hard to hard to know if it's because I met the the right man and suddenly had the right support to think in that way at all.

或者只是身体在说：好吧，现在不试就永远没机会了，然后当你认真想想，就觉得：好吧，我想要这个。

Or if it's actually just the body saying, okay, it's now or never, then suddenly when you think about it, it's like, okay, I want this.

当我们开始尝试的时候，我想：哦，但如果没成功，也没关系。

And then when we started trying, I was like, oh, but if it doesn't work, that's fine.

我会好好的。

I'm gonna be fine.

但我其实一点都不好。

But I was not fine at all.

那时候她现在已经39岁了，所以当时她36岁。

At that point, she she's 39 now, so she was 36 then.

所以我认为，显然有一种紧迫感：如果这是他们要做的决定，那就必须尽快行动。

And so I think there was a sense of increased urgency, obviously, to if this is gonna be a decision that they make, it needs to happen as soon as possible, really.

那尝试的结果如何？

And how did the trying work out?

后来发生了什么？

What happened?

一开始并不顺利。

Not well at first.

我的意思是，那是一段极其艰难的时期。

I mean, I think it was an incredibly difficult period.

她跟我提起过她经历过的两次流产。

I mean, she spoke to me about two miscarriages that she had had.

天哪。

Oh, no.

第一次是在2023年，她当时在芝加哥出演雅纳切克的《耶努法》的女主角，而这个角色的剧情极具讽刺意味——讲述的是一位年轻女性的孩子被杀害的故事。

The first being, in the 2023, she was in Chicago to sing the title role in Janacek's Yanufa, which in this terrible irony is actually about this young woman whose baby is murdered.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以我觉得那之后我感到极度空虚。

So I think I just felt extremely empty after that.

什么都没有了。

There was nothing left.

我真的把所有的精力和所有的一切都用光了。

I had used all my energy and all my everything I had, really.

但困难的是，你不可能简单地对自己说，如果这事不成，我也无所谓。

But the the hard part was that it wasn't so easy, you know, to just say, oh, if this doesn't work, I'm fine.

因为它变成了一种执念。

Because it became, like, an obsession.

我完全陷入了这种状态，那就是我唯一想要的。

It was completely I was like, this now, that's all I wanted.

嗯。

Mhmm.

几个月后，大约在2024年，她在巴黎演唱施特劳斯的《莎乐美》，那也是一部非常残酷而激烈的歌剧。

And then a few months later, sort of in the 2024, she was in Paris singing in Strauss' Salome, which is also a very brutal and intense opera.

在经历那次流产之后，她甚至没有错过一场演出。

And with that miscarriage, she didn't even miss a performance.

我只是假装

I just pretended

一切都发生了。

like everything happened.

做这件事真的很强烈。

Doing this is, like, this intense

是的。

Yeah.

这确实很艰难，但和我做的许多事情一样。

It was quite but it was the same as with many things that I do.

我变得非常、非常、非常情绪化。

I I get very, very, very, very emotional.

但为了应对，我就把它屏蔽掉，我想这还挺人性的。

But then to be able to cope, I just block it out, which I guess is quite human.

我认为在这两个情况下，她说她几乎没告诉任何人。

I think for in both of these instances, she said she told almost no one.

为了完成我的工作，我必须拥有很强的自信心，你知道的，比如上台表演，对我来说，把私人生活和职业生活分开很重要。

To do my job, I have to have a very a lot of self confidence, you know, like, to go on stage, and it's important for me to, in a way, keep private life and professional life separate.

但当你的私人生活占据了全部时，有工作在某种程度上反而是一种慰藉。

But then when your private life takes up everything, it it was it was in a way good to have my job.

至少我还能唱歌，我的意思是。

At least I could sing, if you what mean.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我无法想象在如此强烈的压力下还能唱歌。

I mean, I cannot imagine singing through such an intense experience with all of that pressure.

这时她开始感到气馁了吗？

Was she starting to get discouraged at this point?

比如，她有考虑过做试管婴儿吗？

Like, did she think about doing IVF?

她说，在这件事发生后，他们去看了生育医生，只是想了解一下。

She said that they went to a fertility doctor after this had happened to just say, okay.

有哪些选择？

What are options?

结果发现，从生理上来看，一切似乎都正常。

And it turned out that physically, nothing seemed amiss.

我当时就想，除非万不得已，我宁愿不做试管婴儿，因为我知道这些激素会影响嗓音，而且对身体的影响非常大。

And I was like, I don't I'd rather not do the IVF unless I have to because I know these hormones affects the voice and it's extremely effective on the body.

所以我希望能尽可能长时间地尝试自然方式。

So I wanted to try the natural way as as long as possible.

我们继续这样做了。

And we continued to do that.

然后是他做的第一次超声波检查，他说：等等。

And then he was the one who who did the first scan and he was like, wait.

有两个。

There's two.

他当时

And he was

所以，是偶然发生的吗？

So, like, by by chance?

纯属偶然。

By chance.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他几乎和我们一样开心，因为他知道我们想要不止一个孩子。

And he was almost as happy as us because he knew that we wanted we wanted more than one child.

嗯，就是这样。

So it was Mhmm.

是双胞胎。

It was twins.

即使没有做试管婴儿，他们也对意外怀上双胞胎感到惊讶。

Even even without IVF, they fat they were sort of surprised to find that they had become pregnant with twins.

哇。

Wow.

这显然是一个祝福。

Obviously, a blessing.

我能想象她一定欣喜若狂。

I can imagine she's totally ecstatic.

我在想，她之前所有关于怀孕如何影响她嗓音和天赋的疑问，现在即将变得非常现实。

And I am thinking about the fact that now all of those questions that she had about how pregnancy would affect her voice, her gift, are suddenly about to become very real.

我觉得她当时很害怕。

I think that she was terrified.

我的意思是，当你准备做这样的事时，面对这些身体上的变化，确实令人不安。

I mean, I think you leave to do something like this with all of these bodily changes.

她心里想，好吧。

The thought is, okay.

我得回来演唱歌剧中最具挑战性的部分之一。

I'm gonna need to come back doing one of the hardest parts in all of opera.

每个人都会屏息凝神，聆听每一个音符。

Everyone is gonna be hanging on every note.

每个人都会仔细分析她所做的每一件事。

Everyone is gonna be dissecting everything that she does.

所以，一方面是外界的反应，另一方面就是，她的声音还会和以前一样吗？

So both kind of the reaction from outside and then just like, is she gonna have the same voice that she had before?

我们先短暂休息一下，回来后聊聊发生了什么，以及生育如何真正影响了戴维德森的职业生涯。

Let's take a quick break, and we'll talk about what happened and how giving birth actually affected Davidsen's career when we return.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你好，纽约时报。

Hi, New York Times.

我非常希望为共享订阅设置独立的登录账户。

I would be very interested in having separate logins for a shared subscription.

我35岁了。

I'm 35 years old.

我至今还在使用父母的《纽约时报》订阅。

I still share my parents' New York Times subscription.

我觉得如果我的青少年孩子有自己的登录账号，我们就可以分享文章。

I think if my teenagers were to have their own logins, we could share articles.

它不允许我们玩

It doesn't let us play the

同样的游戏。

same games as each other.

我玩数独。

I play the Stoku.

我做填字游戏。

I do the crossword.

我做拼字游戏。

I do the spelling bee.

我做单词谜题。

I do the wordle.

请帮帮忙。

Please help.

如果我们有自己的账户就太棒了。

Having our own accounts would be amazing.

我妈妈可以保存她自己的食谱。

My mom could save her own recipes.

我的朋友们可以

My friends could

保存他们的食谱。

save their recipes.

我想订每周通讯，但它们总是发给我丈夫，而且

I wanna get the weekly newsletter, but they seem to always go to my husband, and

他从不转给我。

then he doesn't forward them to me.

我们都喜欢烹饪。

We both love cooking.

我是那种做30分钟内搞定晚餐的人。

I'm a thirty minute and under dinner girly.

我男朋友非常讲究。

My boyfriend is very elaborate.

我觉得他拥有自己的个人资料会很棒。

I think him having his own profile would be great.

我们喜欢《纽约时报》，也希望能各自独立地享受它。

We love The New York Times, and we would love to love it individually.

听众们，我们听到了你们的声音。

Listeners, we heard you.

推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅服务。

Introducing The New York Times Family Subscription.

一个订阅，可为生活中最多四位成员提供独立登录账号。

One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life.

了解更多，请访问 nytimes.com/family。

Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

所以，扎克，戴维森，此刻你正处在我们即将分娩的阶段。

So, Zach, Davidsen is in this moment where you loved us about to give birth.

所有这些问题，兴奋与焦虑，都即将变得非常真实。

And all of these issues, the excitement, the anxiety, it's all about to become very real.

那我们从那里继续吧。

So let's pick it up from there.

后来发生了什么？

What happened?

她生下了双胞胎，而且不需要剖腹产。

Well, so she gives birth to twins, and, they didn't need to do a C section.

但产后她出现了内出血，经历了一次非常可怕的医疗程序。

But she had internal bleeding right after, so there was this very scary kind of medical procedure.

太可怕了。

Very scary.

我丈夫一个人留在房间里照看两个宝宝，然后他们就把我推了出去，说她正在出血。

My husband was left there in the room with these two babies, and then they just rolled me out and said she's bleeding.

而他当时

And he was

就像，我觉得每个人都觉得这是一次相当常规的手术。

like, so it was also one of those I think everyone knew that this is an operation that is sort of straightforward.

但对我们来说，感觉确实是，我很害怕再也见不到他们，错过这一切。

But for us, it felt like, yeah, I was scared I was never gonna see them again, miss it.

意思是，嗯。

Mean, so Mhmm.

所以我认为她在分娩前的几周完全休息了，连练习都不做，甚至完全不发声。

So she had taken, I think, the couple of weeks before giving birth totally off, like, even practicing, not even kinda, like, vocalizing at all.

然后她说分娩后的几周也完全休息了。

And then she said that she had taken the couple of weeks after completely off.

所以总共大约有一个月的时间，她完全没有唱歌。

So there was maybe, like, a month total in which totally no singing.

不仅是不上台表演，而且根本一点歌声都没有。

Not only not performing on stage, but no singing whatsoever.

所以我觉得，大家心里都有种感觉，好吧。

And so I think that there was this sense, like, okay.

这几周结束后，你张开嘴，会发出什么样的声音呢？

You're gonna open your mouth at the end of these couple weeks and, like, what's going to come out?

我只想着我的声音。

And all I thought about was my voice.

我在想，我的声音会有什么变化？

I was like, how is my voice gonna change?

如果发生这种情况怎么办？

What if this happens?

她说，一重新开始唱歌，就没事了。

She said that the minute she started back, she was fine.

她的声音听起来很正常。

She sounded fine.

声音没问题，但我的头不行。

The voice was fine, but, my head.

我想她没预料到的是，她的精神状态会这样。

I think what she was not expecting was where her head was at.

我的意思是，情绪层面真的很艰难。

I mean, the emotional aspect, which was really hard.

你什么意思？

What do mean?

跟我讲讲这个。

Tell me about that.

她告诉我，她一想到要回去唱歌，就感到无比纠结。

She told me that she just felt incredibly torn about going back to singing, period.

不仅仅是出门去排练，就连只是走进另一个房间练习，都会让她内疚不已。

And not just leaving the house for a rehearsal, but literally going into another room to practice kind of wracked her with guilt.

我的练习室就在客厅旁边，其实过去并不难，但我就是提不起劲儿。

I mean, I have my practice room, like, next to the living room, so there's not like it's hard to go, but I I just didn't find the strength.

把他们留在身后，感觉很奇怪。

It felt weird to leave them behind.

甚至只是走进练习室都觉得奇怪。

Even to go into the practice room.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

我只是想待在他们身边，嗯。

I just wanted to be near them Mhmm.

一直如此。

All the time.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

然后唱歌感觉像是件很荒谬的事。

And then singing felt like such a silly thing to do.

对。

Right.

唱歌感觉真是件很傻的事。

Singing felt like such a silly thing to do.

就连那对她来说都非常困难，更不用说，我认为，她要重新转向事业并进入状态来准备这一切了。

Even that was really hard for her, let alone, I think, the sense of pivoting back to her career and being in the headspace to prepare this.

我的意思是，我认为她只是想做个妈妈。

I mean, I think she just wanted to be a mom.

那她为什么必须这么快就重新回到事业上呢？

And why did she have to pivot back to her career so quickly?

我的意思是，我不太了解歌剧界及其产假政策，但难道她没有得到一些休假时间吗？

I mean, I'm not familiar with the world of opera and its maternity leave policies, but, I mean, didn't she get some time off?

她确实休了一段时间，但真的只有几个月。

She got some time off, but really only a few months.

而且那几个月还需要密集准备，因为她必须开始为她在巴塞罗那首演《伊索尔德》进行排练，而她计划在一月就唱这部歌剧，之后才来大都会歌剧院演出。

And that those months were gonna need to be preparation intensive because she was going to have to start rehearsals for her first Isolde in Barcelona, which she was singing in January before coming to the Met to do it here.

所以时间在紧迫地流逝。

And so the clock was ticking.

她需要重新回到练习室。

She needed to reenter the practice room.

她需要开始进行声乐指导。

She needed to start coaching this.

因为，这又不是一个她以前演过的角色。

Because, again, this wasn't a role that she had done before.

这不仅对她来说完全是全新的，而且还是歌剧中最难的角色之一。

This was not only something that was totally new to her, but it was one of the hardest roles in all of opera.

几个月后，当家人前往巴塞罗那开始排练时，她发现离开酒店、离开公寓去排练简直难以承受。

And then when it came time these months later to for the family to go to Barcelona to begin rehearsals, she found that leaving the hotel, leaving the apartment for rehearsal was unbearable.

我每天离开家、在休息时见到他们时，都会哭出来。

I cried, like, almost every day when I left the home and when I saw them in the break.

我觉得自己在工作上失败了，在家里也失败了，那种觉得自己不够好的感觉越来越强烈，而期望值却不断攀升。

And I felt I failed at work, failed at home, you know, this this completely sense of lack of being enough and and the expectations were just like building and building.

一开始，我说，这根本毫无意义。

In the beginning, I said, I'm just there's no point.

当我曾经那么热爱唱歌时，为什么还要唱呢？

Why should I sing when I used to love it?

我不能半途而废，你明白吗？

I that's I can't do halfway, if you what mean.

我不能上台后只是敷衍了事。

I'm not can't go on stage and be, like, practical.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为，她觉得方程的两边都彻底崩溃了。

She was, I think, feeling like everything on both sides of the equation was really a a disaster.

就连排练的过程，也再无法带给她以往那样的满足感。

And singing, even the process of rehearsing, wasn't giving her the fulfillment that it had before.

是的。

Yeah.

她所描述的在工作和家庭中都失败的情况。

This thing she's describing of failing at work and failing at home.

作为一名母亲，我可以这么说，这是一种非常普遍的经历。

I mean, as a mom myself, I can say this is a really common experience.

那么她在巴塞罗那的情况怎么样？

So how did it go for her in Barcelona?

那些演出表现如何？

How did the performances do?

嗯，所有的评论都是赞誉。

Well, the reviews were all raves.

在歌剧界，大家都会互相传阅各种演出的盗版录像。

And when you're in the opera world, everyone is sending around kind of bootleg tapes of people's performances.

于是他们开始

And so they began

我都不知道有这回事。

to didn't know that.

在圈内流传。

Circulate.

很明显，她完全演活了这个角色，这简直就像是一部传世的《伊索尔德》。

And it was completely clear that she had totally nailed it, that this was, again, like, kind of like an Isolde for the ages.

病态结束了。

Sick is gone.

病态彻底过去了。

Sick is finished.

但她告诉我，情感上她已经精疲力尽。

But she told me that emotionally, she was just completely exhausted.

这种感觉很熟悉，就好像我曾经经历过一样。

It was familiar in the sense that it felt like, okay, I've been here before in a way.

这让我感到非常害怕，因为我已经年纪更大了。

And it was very scary because I was this older.

但遗憾的是，它带给我的东西很少。

But it gave me very little, unfortunately.