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我叫戴安娜·邓恩。
My name is Diana Dunn.
我希望能够与我的孙女们共享我的《纽约时报》账户。
I would like to be able to share my New York Times account with my granddaughters.
我们住在一个非常偏远的地区。
We live in a very rural area.
我想共享我的账户，只为拓宽她们对整个世界的认知。
I would like to share my account just to increase their knowledge of our whole world.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
戴安娜，我们听到您的诉求了。
Diana, we heard you.
现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅计划。
Introducing the New York Times Family Subscription.
一个订阅账户最多可支持四位家庭成员独立登录。
One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life.
了解更多信息，请访问nytimes.com/family。
Find out more at nytimes.com/family.
我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。
I'm Gilbert Cruz.
这里是周日特辑。
This is the Sunday special.
在2025年的最后几期节目中，我们将回顾今年的文化现象。
For the last few episodes of twenty twenty five, we're looking back on the year in culture.
今天我们要聊的是音乐。
Today, we're talking about music.
今年发行了众多专辑和单曲。
There were so many albums and songs released throughout the year.
我们将与两位几乎每天都沉浸在音乐中的人士，聊聊其中最重要和最优秀的作品。
We're gonna talk about some of the biggest and best with two people who are immersed in music pretty much every single day.
凯伦·甘兹是《纽约时报》的流行音乐编辑。
Karen Ganz is the pop music editor here at the Times.
你好，凯伦。
Hello, Karen.
你好，吉尔伯特。
Hello, Gilbert.
林赛·佐利兹是我们这里的流行音乐评论家。
And Lindsay Zolids is a pop music critic here.
你好，林赛。
Hello, Lindsay.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back to the show.
谢谢再次邀请我。
Thanks for having me back.
那么作为开场，我会开始一个句子，然后由你来完成它。
So to kick things off, I'm I'm gonna start a sentence, and and you're gonna complete it.
好吗？
Okay?
对于音乐来说，2025年是空白的。
So for music, 2025 was blank.
填空吧。
Fill in the blank.
对我来说这是糟糕的一年，吉尔伯特。
It was a bummer year for me, Gilbert.
说实话，确实如此。
Honestly, it really was.
我知道。
I know.
我很抱歉。
I'm sorry.
我们一开始就有点不顺利。
We're starting off on a a sour note.
我们会让事情好转起来的。
We're gonna things are going uphill.
火箭飞船在我完成这份初步清单后就会起飞，当时我正在制作自己的年度最佳榜单，我就想，今年真是我最艰难的一年。
The rocket ship takes off after I I finish this initial was making my own, best of list, and I was like, I have had the hardest time this year.
我觉得是有史以来最艰难的一年，我要说这是25年专业榜单制作生涯中最难的。
I think the hardest time ever, and I'm gonna say twenty five years of professional list making.
天啊。
Oh my god.
因为去年有碧梨和碧昂丝这样的巨星。
Because last year, it was, like, Billie Eilish and Beyonce.
前年则有奥利维亚·罗德里戈和100 gags这样的现象级作品。
The year before that, it was Olivia Rodrigo and a 100 gags.
就是这些显而易见的重磅作品，它们对我的影响实在太深刻了。
Like, there were just these obvious giant things that had such a strong impact on me.
但今年做榜单时，我就感觉不太妙。
And while I was making my list this year, I was like, uh-oh.
所以整体而言，今年有很多我原本期待会很出色的唱片。
So to me, overall, there were a lot of records I was expecting to be great.
它们比我预期的要稍逊一筹。
They were a little lesser than I anticipated.
我要说这是你的失望。
I'm gonna say your disappointment.
我会从反面来看这个问题。
I'll take the flip side of that.
我会试着更乐观地解读。
I'll try to spin it more optimistically.
谢谢。
Thank you.
为了我们一开始就不陷入困境。
Just so just so we're not stuck in the mud here at the first.
大家都会生我的气。
Everyone's gonna get mad at me.
不会的。
No.
但我不认为你是错的。
But I don't think you're wrong.
我认为就主流而言，这是非常停滞不前的一年。
I think in in the in terms of the mainstream, it was a very stagnant year.
我觉得今年一些最大的商业大片，在商业意义上非常成功，但艺术性上却有所欠缺。
And I think some of the biggest blockbusters of the year, you know, were huge in a commercial sense, but I found lacking artistically.
是的。
Yes.
但另一方面，我得以在年终榜单上留出时间和空间，去关注那些不太引人注目的事物，这始终是我作为评论家的习惯。
But the flip side of that is that I, you know, had some time and space in my year end list to pay attention to things that were going on, like, under the radar, which I always am as a critic.
正因为今年缺乏那些大牌作品，反而提供了深入挖掘的机会，发现一些意料之外的新事物，最终列出了一份更具个人特色的榜单。
But I think because there was such a void of the big marquee names this year, it really presented an opportunity to dig a little deeper, find some new things that were unexpected, and come up with a list that felt a little more personal.
我认为今年没有出现一部或几部公认的年度专辑。
I think it was a year where there was not a big consensus pick or even a few consensus picks of the album of the year.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我认为在这种空白和失望中，也可以说存在积极的一面。
So I think out of that void, and disappointment, if you will, there can also be a a bright side.
听起来今年并不存在一个所谓的'年度专辑'，但确实有几张我们三人都非常喜欢的重要发行作品。
So it sounds like there wasn't necessarily a, quote, album of the year this year, but there were several sort of big, big releases that I think the three of us were sort of big fans of.
我想先从即将在我们超级碗中场秀亮相的明星人物Bed Bunny开始说起。
I wanna start with the star of our upcoming Super Bowl halftime show, Bed Bunny.
他今年发行了一张名为《Debbie Tirad Mas Photos》的巨大成功专辑。
He had a huge, huge album this year called Debbie Tirad Mas Photos.
这是你的选择之一，林赛。
It was one of your picks, Lindsay.
告诉我你为什么喜欢它。
Tell me why you loved it.
我爱它。
I love it.
我认为它与碧昂丝近期的作品属于同一水准，这张专辑深受音乐历史和特定音乐流派的影响。
I consider it in the league of what Beyonce has been doing recently, where it's an album that is very informed by musical history and certain musical lineages.
要知道，碧昂丝的《文艺复兴》专辑和《牛仔卡特》，这两张她最近发行的唱片，感觉非常精心策划，就像是在与舞曲历史和乡村音乐历史对话。
You know, Beyonce in the Renaissance album and Cowboy Carter, these two records that she's put out recently that feel, you know, very curated and, like, a conversation with the history of dance music, the history of country music.
我听说了巴尼在这张唱片中对波多黎各音乐历史的致敬。
I hear about Bunny doing that with the history of Puerto Rican music on on this record.
它真正以这种方式挖掘过去，既显得非常个人化，又非常具有当代感。
It's really mining the past in this way that feels very personal but also very contemporary.
听起来从来不会觉得像在做功课。
It never feels like homework to listen to.
所以我觉得很酷的是，你有这样的唱片制作人，他们的作品既与过去对话，又让人感觉如此当下，甚至在很多方面还很有前瞻性。
So I think it's very cool that you have a listers making records like this that just feel so in conversation with the past, but still feel so present and even forward looking in a lot of ways too.
而且他还有一首歌引用了胡安·索
And he also had a song that referenced Juan So
的。
to.
是的。
Yes.
我是说，这绝对让我占了上风
I mean, that that definitely tipped the scales in my direction
这就是我作为粉丝的想法
That's what I as fan.
是啊
Yeah.
我也是这么想的
That's what I thought.
我正想说，我很喜欢他在我们一月份POPcast采访中提到的，参与专辑演奏的很多音乐人都非常年轻
I was gonna say I loved he had talked about in our in our interview that John and Joe, did on POPcast in January about how so many of the people that played instruments on the record were really young.
我们说的是18、19、20岁的年轻人，他们虽然演绎着过去的歌曲，但正因为他们年轻
Like, we're talking 18, nineteen, twenty, and they were, you know, bringing in the songs of their past, but really, I think, just by virtue of their youth.
反而为这些歌曲注入了新的灵魂
They're imbuing them with some sort of new spirit.
我特别喜欢听到这些电子音效与传统乐器交织的感觉
I love hearing these sort of, like, a few electronic plinks and things making their way in with all the instruments.
是的。
Yeah.
就像你说的那样，这种方式确实具有跨代意义。
It's it's intergenerational in that way that you're talking about too.
而且我认为你也能听出来，坏痞兔也提到过这某种程度上是在追溯他父母或祖父母那辈的音乐。
And I think you hear that, you know, Bad Bunny also has talked about it's it's sort of him going back to his parents or his grandparents' generation of music.
某些你曾认为'老派'的声音，当你到一定年龄后，就会真正开始欣赏它们。
Certain sounds that you associated with, like, older people, quote, unquote, and you get to a certain age and you really start to appreciate that.
没错。
Yeah.
所以我认为，虽然他在延续一个非常特定的音乐脉络，并参考特定文化，但这种体验其实非常普遍，这也是为什么这张专辑能引起广泛共鸣，甚至进一步扩大了他的粉丝群体。
So I think while he's working in a very specific lineage and, like, referencing a specific culture, I think that's such a universal experience that is part of the reason this album resonates well beyond and and it's really, I think, expanded his fan base even more.
让我惊讶的是，特别是这张专辑最终让我成为了坏痞兔的粉丝。
It surprised me how much of this album in particular particular was the one that finally sold me on Bed Bunny.
我之前对他的几张作品不太感冒，但现在我觉得有必要重新体验他的全部作品，整个艺术生涯。
I didn't really get into his past few ones, but I sort of feel like I need to go back and re experience the whole thing, the whole oeuvre.
好的。
Alright.
我们接着聊聊你们俩特别喜欢的部分。
Let's move on to something that you two really in particular loved.
我...我想我该举手发言了。
I I'm I guess I'm putting my paws up.
虽然不太明白这手势什么意思，但我知道Lady Gaga同时出现在你们俩的榜单上。
I don't really know what that means, but I know that Lady Gaga made both of your lists.
跟我们聊聊她的新专辑《Mayhem》吧。
Tell us about Mayhem, her latest album.
凯伦，我知道你能滔滔不绝讲上两小时。
Karen, I know you could talk for, like, two hours about this.
确实可以。
I can.
需要我先开始吗？
Do you want me to start?
因为那样你就会陷入危险。
Because then you're in you're in danger.
看着点，大概说个四分钟就好。
Watch watch talk for, like, four minutes.
我会给你更少的时间。
I'll you I'll you even less.
首先，我要做个最大的自我检讨，因为专辑刚出来时，我觉得我不喜欢它。
I first, you know, the biggest mea culpa because when it came out, I was like, I don't like this.
它没有达到我的预期。
It's not living up to the expectations I had.
我当时有点消极态度。
I was a little bit negative.
后来我和林赛一起去看了巡演，因为她负责评论《Mayhem》。
And then I went to see the tour with Lindsay because she was reviewing Mayhem.
突然间，嘎嘎整个职业生涯的所有脉络在我眼前全部贯通了。
And all of the strands of Gaga's entire career suddenly connected for me.
这让我以一种完全出乎意料的方式爱上了这张专辑。
And it made me love the album in a way that I really didn't expect to.
所以在我心中它仍有缺陷。
So it's still flawed in my mind.
对我来说，那些糟糕的歌曲简直就是彻头彻尾的败笔。
It's like the bad songs to me are just really clunkers.
但总体而言，我确实将其视为某种重生，重新连接了最初让她如此充满活力的元素。
But overall, I really do see it as a sort of reinvention and but plugging into the things that made her so invigorating in the first place.
你知道，就是那种真正核心的、有趣的、令人振奋的电子舞曲。
You know, like, just really core, interesting, grindy dance music.
有没有哪首歌特别打动你？
What's one song in particular that really sold you?
第二支单曲《Abracadabra》，
Abracadabra, single number two,
胡言乱语的歌词又回来了。
the nonsense verse is back.
是的。
Yes.
而且
And
这...这不是她首创的，但确实让人回想起《Bad Romance》的风格。
it it's something she I don't wanna say originated, but it's a throwback to bad romance.
这是对《The Fame》时期的致敬。
It's a throwback to the fame era.
那首《Scheisse》里她唱道'我不会说德语，但如果你想听我可以试试'，然后就开始说虚构的德语歌词。
The song Scheisse where she says, I don't speak German, but I can if you'd like, and then speaks fictional German dress.
这正是我们俩都特别喜欢的Lady Gaga特色。
That's a that's a very specific Lady Gaga thing we both love too.
没错。
Yes.
她反复表达想学德语的愿望，在多首歌里都有体现。
Her her recurrent wish to learn German that comes up in in multiple songs.
我们当中是谁？
Who among us?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我认为我特别喜欢《abracadabra》的一点在于，她正在玩转'粉丝服务'这个概念——这个词我们近来经常听到。
I think what I really like about abracadabra in particular, it's she's playing around with this concept of fan service that we hear a lot about these days.
某种程度上意味着你在迎合粉丝。
That sort of meaning you're pandering to your fans.
在这个粉丝能在网上大声表达诉求的时代，你作为艺术家能即时获得反馈，然后精准满足他们的需求。
You're giving them exactly what they want at a time when fans can be very vocal online, that you're getting instant feedback as an artist.
我觉得'粉丝服务'这个词通常带有贬义色彩。
I think fan service is a term use usually used derisively.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但我发现Mayhem最精彩的部分恰恰是最棒的粉丝服务——她的粉丝们长久以来一直希望她回归创作那些黑暗电子流行热曲。
But I find the best parts of Mayhem to be the best kind of fan service, which is that her fans have just wanted her to go back to making these dark electronic pop bangers for a long time now.
我们即将迎来新生，为僵尸而觉醒。
We're about to be up on life, waking up for zombies.
所以把你的筹码押在Oathamy上。
So put your balls on Oathamy.
你更胜一筹。
You something more.
你更胜一筹。
You something more.
她稍微偏离了轨道。
She swerved a bit.
她曾浅尝辄止地涉足那个领域。
She's she's dipped a toe in that world.
但这次她是真正回归了让她成名的曲风，同时为这种声音注入了某种成熟度和专业水准，我认为这让她超越了早期那些让我们爱上她的作品。
But this is her just committing to the sound that made her famous, but bringing a certain maturity and a level of expertise to that sound that I think just elevates it from some of the earliest stuff that made us all fall in love with her in the first place.
好的。
Alright.
我没想到会这么说，但今年还有另一位流行歌手出现在许多榜单上，歌曲榜、专辑榜。
I did not expect to be saying this, but there's another pop star this year who ended up on on a lot of list, song list, album list.
那就是贾斯汀·比伯。
That was Justin Bieber.
谁能想到呢？
Who knew?
距离他上一张专辑已经四年了，而大家很喜欢这张。
It's been four years since his last record, and people liked it.
你对这张专辑最印象深刻的是什么？
What stood out to you about this?
其实比伯这次一口气发行了两张完整专辑，准确说是两张双碟专辑。
So Bieber released actually two whole albums, two double albums to it.
音乐量很大，我们只能说确实如此。
A lot of music, let's just say Yeah.
以SWAG为名，分为SWAG一和SWAG二两部分。
Under the name SWAG, SWAG one and SWAG two.
我原本不认为这些作品都算成功，但对我来说亮点在于——包括今年大热单曲《Daisies》在内，它确实是我今年最爱的单曲之一——这些作品确实奏效了。
And I didn't think all of that was successful, but I think the highlights for me, including the song Daisies, which was a big hit this year and which was one of my favorite singles of the year, really worked.
这张专辑尤其是这首歌，展现了比伯与一些新合作者及制作人的合作，包括音乐制作人Dijon和吉他手McGee。
This album and this song in particular finds Bieber working with some new collaborators and producers, the producer and musician, Dijon, and the guitarist, McGee.
这些艺术家都带有略微实验性的独立音乐风格。
These are artists that have slightly more experimental indie adjacent sounds.
这些特质通常不会用来形容贾斯汀·比伯。
Those are not really words you generally describe Justin Bieber with.
是啊。
Yep.
这是他尝试突破自我的表现，同时这些通常创作更前卫音乐的合作伙伴，仍在与这位世界顶级流行巨星合作。
So it was him sort of trying something different, and then also these collaborators who tend to make a little more avant garde music working with one of the biggest pop stars in the world still.
我发现这些合作者之间的碰撞产生了非常丰硕的成果。
And I found that tension between all of those collaborators to be really fruitful.
我真的很喜欢比伯在一些歌曲中的表现，这些歌曲不像我们习惯与他联系在一起的流行金曲那样精致。
And I really like the way Bieber sounds on some some songs that don't sound as polished as the pop hits that we're used to associating him with.
而且我觉得《Daisy》听起来就是未完成的样子，有种demo般的粗糙感，但这种方式非常引人入胜。
And and I think Daisy's just sounds unfinished and and demo like in this really intriguing way.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这对比伯来说是个有趣的转向，因为你依然能听到他那标志性的丝滑嗓音，但配器却采用了更粗粝的质感。
And it it felt like a really interesting swerve for Bieber because you're still getting that recognizable smooth Bieber voice, but with these rougher textures of the instrumentation.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得你说的没错，虽然听到他的名字出现在这里很意外。要知道，过去两三年他基本就是八卦版的常客。
And I think what you said, even though you were surprised to hear his name pop up here, You know, like, had just been a tabloid fixture for the past two or three years.
人们总在讨论他和前经纪人Scooter Braun的关系，还有他妻子的事。
People, you know, were talking about his relationship with his former manager, Scooter Braun, his wife.
他刚有了个孩子。
He had a child.
我认为他长期被困在流行音乐机器的齿轮中，而这张专辑最让我欣赏的是，他听起来极其放松，完全做回了自己。
I think he had been so caught up as a cog in the pop machine for so long that what I like best about this record is that he just sounds extremely loose and like himself.
我并不是最狂热的比伯粉。
I don't I'm not the biggest, bleeper.
他们是这么称呼的吗？
Is that what they call them?
我不是比伯的铁杆粉丝。
I'm not the biggest beaver fan.
他的风格不会出现在我的歌单里，但在这个新背景下，与这些新制作人和声音合作，确实让人耳目一新。
The swag wouldn't be on my list, but it is really refreshing to hear him in this new context with these new, you know, producers and voices.
而且看起来，现在整个世界都对他敞开了大门。
And it it seems like, you know, the the world is open to him now.
他只需要重新迈出那一步。
He just needs to sort of step back in.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们刚才聊了Bad Bunny、Lady Gaga和Justin Bieber。
So we talked about Bad Bunny and Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber.
这三位都是相当知名的大牌艺人。
Those are all three big, pretty established artists.
不过我很好奇你对一些新近走红的音乐人有什么看法。
But I'm curious what you thought about new music from some people who only broke out more recently.
我特指Chapel Roan和Sabrina Carpenter这两位。
I'm thinking specifically of Chapel Roan and Sabrina Carpenter.
她们在2024年都取得了巨大成功。
They are artists who had big twenty twenty fours.
你觉得她们今年的音乐怎么样？
What'd you think of their music this year?
林赛和我经常讨论这个问题。
Lindsay and I have talked about this a lot.
但你知道，当新人歌手迎来爆红之年时，真的需要慎重考虑下一步该怎么走。
But, you know, when you have a blockbuster year as a new artist, you really have to decide what what your next move is.
你是打算乘胜追击，给观众带来更多作品，还是选择稍作退步，更谨慎地规划下一步？
Are you gonna give people more, you know, and try to seize the moment, or are you gonna step back a little bit and, like, you know, sort of more slowly calculate your next move?
而Sabrina和Chappell采取了完全相反的路线
And Sabrina and Chappell did the two opposite things.
Chappell今年只发布了两首歌
So Chappell only put out two songs this year.
一首是乡村风格的《The Giver》，另一首是更具颂歌气质、带点叙事民谣色彩的《The Subway》
The Giver, which is sort of like a country jam, And The Subway, which is a more of an anthemic, a little bit of a paraballad.
我觉得这两首歌都选得恰到好处，是经过深思熟虑的精品之作
And I thought both of those songs were just, like, very well selected, two great carefully considered songs.
而Sabrina的策略则是：既然你们喜欢短小精悍
And I think Sabrina's move was like, hey.
那就再来一轮
You guys like short and sweet?
这就是她的第二回合
Here is round two.
我不认为那张专辑有那么成功。
And I don't think that that album was quite as successful.
她的音乐有点套路化，我觉得在第一张专辑里效果完美。
There is a bit of shtick to her music, and I think that it played off perfectly on the first record.
但到了第二张专辑，就有点像是'好吧'。
And on the second record, it's a little like, okay.
但现在我需要看到新的突破。
But now I need the next iteration.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是啊。
Yeah.
这两位艺人确实代表了爆红后可以选择的两种不同道路。
Those two artists really embodied the two different paths you can take after a breakout year.
而且我觉得今年缺乏爆红新星，特别是与去年相比。
And I think it was a year light on breakout stars, especially in comparison to last year.
但我想补充到这份名单里的还有Doce，信不信由你，我认为她的格莱美突破性演出是很多人第一次看到她表演或真正认识她，那是在2025年。
But someone I would also add to this mix is Doce, who believe it or not, her breakout Grammy performance that I think was the first time a lot of people, got to see her perform or really, like, were introduced to her was in 2025.
怎么了，Dolce？
What's up, Dolce?
你为什么告诉格莱美发生了什么？
Why'd you tell the Grammys what's been going on?
还记得2019年那个老家伙吗？
Remember old dude from 2019?
感觉她好像
Feels like she's been
是啊。
yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就是这届格莱美。
It was this Grammys.
是啊。
Yeah.
格莱美还行吧。
The Grammys are in okay.
今年这场持续太久了。
They're at the big this year has been too long.
二月份。
February.
问题就出在这儿。
That's the problem.
我同意。
I agree.
那表演太精彩了。
That was an amazing performance.
没错。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以她今年红得发紫，突然就成了万众瞩目的焦点人物。
So she was incredibly famous this year, someone who suddenly has a very high profile.
而且她还选择更专注于自己已经发布的音乐作品。
And she also chose to just lean more into the music she had already put out.
她举办了一场巡演，我和Karen都去看了她的混音带《鳄鱼咬伤永不愈合》的演出。
She did a tour that Karen and I both got to see on her mixtape, Alligator Bites Never Heal.
她看起来像是那种从容不迫、对自己节奏很有信心的人。
And she seems like someone who's confident in taking her time.
现在发歌太容易了。
It's so easy to just put out music.
你知道的，现在音乐就像涓涓细流一样持续不断地发布。
You know, there's just a slow drip of music constantly coming out.
再说到比伯，他基本上把所有录制的歌都发了，为了炫酷，在流媒体时代，大家觉得越多越好。
And to go back to Bieber releasing basically every song he recorded for swag and and, you know, in the streaming era, more is considered more.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得Taperone和Doce这些年稍作保留的做法令人耳目一新——他们选择在准备好时才推出新作品，而不是一股脑儿把所有东西抛出来看市场反应。
And I think what was refreshing about Taperone and and Doce following these years with a little bit of withholding, a little bit of I'm gonna give you the next thing when I'm ready, not I'm just gonna throw everything out there and see what sticks.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我认为他们正以更审慎的态度规划自己的职业生涯，这让我对他们接下来的作品更加期待。
So I think they're approaching their careers in a more considered way, and that makes me more excited for what they do have coming next.
我想说的是，作为对Sabrina的支持，她真的就像一位真正的舞台表演者。
I will say as and a note of support for Sabrina, she really just sort of like a real showgirl.
你知道的，她曾是电视明星，而且她就是个全能型的艺人。
You know, she was a TV star, and she's just like an all around entertainer.
所以她已经开始了一场体育馆巡演，并继续在其中加入她新专辑的内容。
So she had started an arena tour, and she continued it to start adding stuff from her new album.
而且，你知道的，在体育馆舞台上演绎一两张相对较新的专辑是相当具有挑战性的。
And, you know, it's pretty tough to translate a newish album or two on the arena stage.
关于Doce、Chapel以及今年我看到的其他几位艺人，有趣的是他们选择了中型场馆进行演出。
The interesting thing about Doce and Chapel and a couple other people I saw this year is that they were, like, in mid sized venues.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们没有选择大型体育馆的路线。
They didn't go the arena route.
在像Forest Hills这样的场地观看演出时（我们就是在那里看的Chapel），你基本上不会盯着大屏幕看。
You're not watching a screen really when you're in a place like Forest Hills, which is where we saw Chapel.
你的视线几乎全程都聚焦在舞台上。
You're you're pretty much watching the stage.
所以如果Sabrina需要表现得比生活更夸张，我认为她只是另一种类型的艺人，更像是一个纯粹的表演者。
So if Sabrina had to sort of be larger than life, I think she's just a little bit of a different kind of entertainer, more of an entertainer than anyone.
至于我...其实我不太喜欢她整张专辑《Man's Best Friend》。
And I I did well, I didn't love Man's Best Friend, the whole album she put out.
但她今年有首《Manchild》是我最喜欢的年度热门歌曲之一。
She had one of my favorite hits of the year in Manchild.
超爱那首歌。
Love that song.
她——说个最明显的转折——并不是我们要讨论的唯一表演型艺人。
She, to make the most obvious pivot known to man, was not the only showgirl that we're gonna talk about.
今年秋天有张备受期待的专辑问世。
There was an album that came out this fall that everyone was excited for.
《纽约时报》有乐评人确实非常喜欢它。
Someone at the New York Times actually really loved it.
我们的乐评人之一约翰·卡拉莫提卡。
One of our critics, his name is John Karamotica.
你们两位对泰勒·斯威夫特的《表演女郎的生活》热情稍减。
The two of you, a little less hot on Taylor Swift's The Life of a Showgirl.
销量数据简直疯狂。
Which was the numbers are crazy.
这张破纪录的专辑自今秋发行以来就一直位居排行榜榜首。
Record breaking album, You know, it's sort of been riding the top of the charts since it came out, early this fall.
这是评审团中令人困惑的发布
This is a confounding release in the panel
在加州。
of Cali.
这个词用得好。
That's a good word.
确实如此，因为这正是你刚才所说的。
It really is, though, because it's exactly what you just said.
这是有史以来最受欢迎的专辑之一。
It is one of the most popular albums that has ever arrived.
单曲非常火爆。
The single is huge.
奥菲莉亚的命运。
The fate of Ophelia.
你到处都能听到它。
You hear it everywhere.
这张专辑已经连续数周蝉联榜首。
It's been number one for weeks.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但围绕泰勒的讨论在这张专辑上发生了巨大转变，而几张专辑前，人们还害怕对她发表任何负面评价，以至于Paste杂志在评论这张专辑时甚至没有署名，因为他们担心撰稿人会被人肉搜索。
But the conversation around Taylor shifted so hard on this album, whereas a few albums ago, people were so scared to say a negative word about her that Paste reviewed the album with, like, no byline because they were worried that their writer was going to get doxxed.
而在这张专辑上，我觉得人们终于可以自由地开始批评她了。
And now on this album, I think people felt really free to start taking shots at her.
我绝不是讨厌这张专辑。
I do not hate this album by any stretch.
实际上我觉得它还挺耐听的。
Like, I actually find it very listenable.
但专辑中很多歌词内容和其他元素让人反感，而且人们终于敢说出来了。
But a lot of the lyrical content, of the other stuff in the album turned people off, and they actually said it.
所以这是个奇怪的时刻——她既是地球上最受欢迎的人，却也遭受着前所未有的批评。
So this is, like, this weird moment where she is, like, the most popular person ever to walk the Earth, but she's also being more criticized than she ever has been.
嗯，是不是因为她是有史以来最受欢迎的流行巨星？
Well, is it is it because she is the most popular person that's the pop star that's ever walked around?
我是说，她刚结束这场疯狂的巡演。
I mean, she's coming off this crazy tour.
她终于订婚了。
She's finally engaged.
她终于上了播客节目，现在又发行了这张专辑。
She finally went on a podcast, and now she puts this album out.
大家都觉得，还行吧。
Everyone's like, it's fine.
我认为部分原因是她让我们产生了稍有不同的期待，这种情况在流行音乐史上发生过很多次。
I think it's partially that she set us up for slightly different expectations, and this has happened many times in pop history.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这让你回想起过去。
And it take you back.
你还记得杀手乐队发行第二张专辑的时候吗？
Do you remember when the killers put out their second album?
那张专辑叫《山姆的小镇》。
It was called Sam's Town.
我记得。
I do.
就是那张模仿斯普林斯汀风格的专辑吗？
Is that the one where, like, this is the Springsteen album?
是这样吗
Is that
是的。
Yes.
但我印象最深的是布兰登·弗劳尔斯在做宣传时说的，这是有史以来最棒的专辑。
But the the the thing I recall best was that Brandon Flowers was doing press, and he was like, this is the best album ever.
你们会爱上这张专辑的。
You're gonna love this album.
没有比这更好的了。
Nothing is better.
然后专辑发行后，人们却说它没那么好。
And then the album come out, people were like, it's not that good.
如果他没给我们设下'这是有史以来最棒专辑'的期望，其实说它'没那么好'本来完全没问题。
And it and it's not that good would have been just fine had he not set us up with this expectation that it was the best thing ever.
泰勒向我们承诺过，会有12首简洁的流行热单。
Taylor promised us, like, 12 concise pop bangers.
我要说...我...
I'm gonna say it I to
我记得是她当时的未婚夫说'首首都是热单'。
believe it was her not then fiance who said they're all bangers.
他确实这么说过。
He did.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但他们没有，所以怪特拉维斯吧。
But they didn't So blame Travis.
好吧，怪他。
Blame alright.
对。
Yeah.
我们会怪...我们会解决的
We'll blame we'll fix
我很乐意为此责怪特拉维斯·凯尔西。
I will happily blame Travis Kelce for this.
但根据她过去与马克斯·马丁团队的合作，人们对这张专辑的声音产生了特定期待。
But there were just expectations about what it might sound like based on her past collaborations with Max Martin and his team.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为人们最初的反应是，嘿。
And I think people's initial response was like, hey.
这和你承诺的不太一样。
It's not exactly what you promised.
然后他们又说，嘿。
And then they were like, hey.
我其实不太喜欢你在这几首歌里表达的内容。
I don't really like what you're saying on a couple of these songs.
还有，嘿。
And, hey.
比如，你知道，为什么要唱关于他男性特征之类的东西？
Like, you know, why are you singing about his manhood and things like that?
哦，天哪。
Oh, boy.
我用了个委婉的说法。
I used a euphemism.
她恋爱了。
She's in love.
她恋爱了。
She's in love.
性是人类生活的重要组成部分。
Sexuality is is a big part of human life.
明白吗？
Okay?
她应该否认这一点吗？
Is she supposed to deny it?
但这从来不是泰勒·斯威夫特形象的核心部分。
But his that has never really been a core part of the Taylor Swift proposition.
她还是那么糟糕。
She's still about rubbish.
一点都不喜欢。
Don't like it all.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实是个相当突然的转向。
This was a this was kind of a hard pivot.
没错。
Yeah.
而且我认为还有一点——我同意这张专辑的接受度和讨论方式确实存在一个转折点。
And I think another because I I agree that there was a a turning point in the way that this album was received and talked about.
我认为人们对泰勒·斯威夫特这位名人——即便不是对音乐人泰勒·斯威夫特——产生了一定程度的文化疲惫感。
And I think there was just a level of cultural exhaustion that people were feeling around Taylor Swift, the celebrity, if not Taylor Swift, the musician.
我认为这张专辑未能真正受益的原因在于，它过多地牵扯了音乐之外的其他话题。
And I think something that did not really do this record a a service was how much this became about other things, not just the music.
我特别想到的是AMC影院上映的那部电影。
And I I I'm thinking specifically of the AMC film.
那部电影。
The film.
天啊。
Oh my god.
当我在那里观看时，突然有件事让我恍然大悟——本质上就是在看美化版的歌词视频，这种内容其他艺术家可能就直接上传到YouTube完事了。
And something kind of clicked for me when I was there watching it and then watching essentially glorified lyric videos that another artist would have just uploaded to YouTube and been done with it.
说实话，花20美元去电影院看这个让我觉得有点恶心。
You know, paying $20 to go see this in a theater felt a little just gross to me, honestly.
她把这种体验宣传为粉丝的集体活动，但仍在向他们收费。
And that experience, which I think she bills as this communal experience for her fans, but she's still charging them.
而且这非常愤世嫉俗。
And it was it was very cynical.
非常
Very
愤世嫉俗。
cynical.
是啊。
Yeah.
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我认为那次的举动反响相当负面。
And I think the reception of that move was pretty negative.
而且它与这张专辑的关联方式。
And the way it was sort of tied into this album.
就像，当我想到歌舞女郎的生活、文化现象时，音乐并不是最先浮现在脑海中的东西。
Like, I when I think about the life of a showgirl, the cultural phenomenon, the music is not the first thing that's coming to mind.
而且...我也不知道。
And and I don't know.
是啊，卡伦，你在点头。
Yeah, if if, Karen, you're nodding.
对。
Yeah.
你说得完全正确，林赛。
You're a 100% right, Lindsay.
关于这张专辑的讨论其实根本不是关于专辑本身的。
The conversation about this album was really not about the album.
我承认这点没错，但同样不可否认的是，《秀场女郎的生活》是公告牌年度专辑榜首，而摩根·沃伦的《我才是问题》位居第二。
I think that's true, but, it is also true that the life of a showgirl was Billboard's number one album of the year, and, you know, Morgan Wallen's I'm the Problem was number two.
这两张专辑确实霸占了排行榜。
That pair really dominated the charts.
是啊。
Yeah.
那一年确实是泰勒和摩根·沃伦的天下。
It really was the year of Taylor and Morgan Wallen.
在专辑榜上，今年没什么突破性作品，所以我才说这是令人失望的一年。
On the album chart, not a lot broke through this year, you know, thus my year of disappointment.
不过偶尔也有昙花一现——某张专辑登顶一周，就像短暂的狂欢。
But there were some one offs where something would be number one for a week, and it was, like, a very brief thrill.
比如嘎嘎小姐就登顶过一周。
Like, Gaga was number one for a week.
泰勒·创造者也有过一周的冠军。
Tyler, the creator, had a week at number one.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
Cardi B。
Cardi B.
就像很多人都是进进出出的感觉。
It was just like a lot of people were kinda in and out.
瑞典金属乐队Ghost也登顶过一周。
The Swedish metal band Ghost got a week.
不
No.
我不知道那是谁
I don't know who that is.
天啊
Oh my god.
好吧，我们得回头再讨论这个
Well, we'll we'll have to revisit this.
但他们
But they're
单独的幽灵乐队？
separate ghost pod?
我是说，我们可以
We I mean, we could.
他们是戴着面具的金属乐队
They are they're masked metal.
他们很神秘
They're mysterious.
他们没有名字
They have no names.
你不应该知道他们是谁
You're not supposed to know who they are.
嗯哼
Uh-huh.
而且
And
嗯，我确实不知道。
Well, I definitely don't.
你不知道。
You don't.
那些听起来像是很流行的金属乐。
Those sounds like, very poppy metal.
好吧。
Okay.
是的。
Yes.
我可能会喜欢那种风格。
I could be into that.
我去看了麦迪逊广场花园的演出。
I went to the show at MSG.
那是在麦迪逊广场花园的一场禁止手机入场的演出。
It was a no phones show at MSG.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
我从来没把手机放进过那个小袋子里？
I never put in a little pouch?
放进那个袋子里。
Put in the pouch.
是啊。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
我伸手去摸那个袋子不下100次，因为我当时特别想录视频，场面太疯狂了。
I reached for that pouch a 100 times because I was like, I just wanted to take video because it was so crazy.
戴着骷髅面具的烟火师们简直绝了，你知道的，就在那里即兴表演。
Amazing pyro guys in skeleton masks, you know, like noodling away.
没能拍下那个画面真是让人沮丧。
Very frustrating that I could not capture that.
不过无论如何，他们太棒了。
But, anyway, they're fantastic.
好的。
Alright.
我们稍作休息，回来后要聊聊今年我们喜欢的其他音乐，一些可能比较冷门的作品。
We are gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we are gonna talk about some of the other music we love this year, some stuff that maybe was a bit more under the radar.
我觉得应该放些《ghosts》来结束这段。
I kinda think we should play some ghosts to take us out.
这太棒了。
This is great.
我爱死它了。
I love it.
我要添加
I'm gonna add
添加到我的万圣节播放列表。
to my Halloween playlist.
不行。
No.
你确实该这么做。
You really do.
嘿。
Hey.
我是约翰·蔡斯。
It's John Chase.
还有玛丽·上原。
And Mari Uehara.
我们来自Wirecutter，《纽约时报》旗下的产品推荐服务。
From Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times.
玛丽，现在是送礼季了。
Mari, it is gift giving time.
今年我们有很多很棒的礼物清单。
And we have so many great lists this year.
50美元以下有什么容易送的礼物吗？
What's an easy gift for someone like under $50?
在我们50美元以下的礼物清单里，我特别喜欢这套来自日本的水彩颜料。
In our gifts under 50 list, I really love this water color set from Japan.
这些颜色非常非常漂亮。
These beautiful, beautiful colors.
小孩子可以玩，大人也可以玩。
It's something that kids can do, adults can do.
我很喜欢这个。
I love that.
有什么我爸爸会喜欢的趣味礼物吗？
What's, like, something fun that my dad is gonna enjoy?
我们在'送给爸爸的礼物'清单里有这些定制版的Funko玩偶。
We have these custom Funko Pops on our gifts for dads list.
你可以定制一个摇头晃脑的小玩具，做成你爸爸的样子。
You can custom make a little bobblehead toy in the likeness of your dad.
它们完全不正经。
They're totally unserious.
就是些傻乎乎的有趣玩意，但人们真的很喜欢。
They're just silly and fun, and people really love them.
这也太搞笑了。
This is so hysterical.
我以前从没见过这些东西。
I had never seen these before.
它们太棒了。
They're amazing.
我得承认，我自己都有点想要一个。
I have to admit, I sort of want one myself.
查看Wirecutter为你和其他所有人准备的完整礼物推荐清单，请访问nytimes.com/holidayguide。
Check out all of Wirecutter's gift recommendations for yourself and everyone else at nytimes.com/holidayguide.
等等。
Wait.
我们还得聊聊黄油加热器。
We still have to talk about the butter warmer.
林赛，你刚整理完年度最佳专辑和歌曲榜单，大家可以在节目说明里找到。
So, Lindsay, you just put together your best of list for albums and songs, which people can find in the show notes.
但考虑到今年音乐界有些反常，有什么让你眼前一亮的东西吗？
But considering it's been a weird year in music, what popped out to you?
在你的榜单里有什么特别突出的吗？
What stood out to you in your lists?
我在整理这些榜单时，注意到出现了一些微观趋势。
So as I was compiling these lists, I I noticed some micro trends emerge.
嗯。
Mhmm.
制作人作为艺术家的崛起，我认为这是我们过去两年看到的一个趋势。
The rise of the producer as artist, I think, is is a trend that we've seen over the past two years.
今年我名单上的一个例子是Dijon，我们提到他曾担任Justin Bieber专辑的制作人，也出现在Bonnie Verse的专辑中——这张专辑同样在我的推荐名单上。
One example of that from my list this year was Dijon, who we mentioned was a producer on the Justin Bieber album, also made an appearance on Bonnie Verse's album, which was on my list as well.
Dijon既是独唱歌手又是极具前瞻性的制作人，他创作了许多碎片化、近乎玻璃碎裂般重构的流行歌曲，这些作品呈现出各种有趣的形态。
Dijon is both a solo artist and a rather forward thinking producer, does a lot of really fragmented kind of almost like shattered glass version of of pop songs that that just have all these interesting shapes.
Dijon的个人专辑《Baby》也入选了我的推荐名单。
And Dijon's own solo album, Baby, was also on my list.
这张专辑真正独特之处在于融合了各种不同类型的声效。
It's a really unique, just fusion of all sorts of different types of sounds.
有些歌曲在中途会突然转变风格，但整体又扎根于他初为人父的生命体验。
There there are songs that kind of turn into something else midway through, but it's also grounded in this experience of new fatherhood.
这张专辑记录着Dijon与伴侣生育孩子的故事。
It's a record that Dijon made about he and his partner having a kid.
这是
It's a
奇迹啊，你知道我的爱。
miracle you know my love.
是艾薇。
It's Ivy.
这张专辑的歌词和视角结合这些真正前卫的声音，有种非常真实、近乎可触的质感，我认为这让整张专辑极具吸引力。
And there's something really really lived in and kinda tactile about the lyrics and the perspective on on the album combined with these really avant garde sounds that, you know, I think make the record really compelling.
这张专辑是否需要完整从头听到尾？
Is that something that needs to be listened to sort of as an album all the way through?
因为当我聆听时，感觉它是一个完整的作品，而不是可以随意挑几首歌来听的。
Because when I was experiencing it, it felt like a full thing, not that I could just pull out a couple tracks here and there.
我想在我的榜单上，没有比《Baby》更适合这个评价的作品了。
I think more than almost anything else on my list, I would say that about Baby.
而且我认为他本人也是这么构思的。
It's and and I think he he thought of it.
我差点用了'孕育'这个词，但我不想玩这个双关。
I almost said conceived, but I didn't want that pun.
所以现在说已经太迟了。
So there too late.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我认为他确实是一个会考虑专辑整体架构的人。
I think he really is someone who's thinking about the larger shape of an album.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我觉得这种制作人兼艺术家的双重身份也有另一面，有时候很难将那种录音室老鼠般的精力转化为引人入胜的现场表演。
But I think the the flip side to the sort of producer artist hybrid is that sometimes it can be difficult to translate the kind of studio rat energy into a compelling live show.
我发现Dijon作为现场表演者还行，但他的演出并没有真正吸引我成为一场精彩的演出。
And I found Dijon as a live performer was fine, but his show didn't really grab me as a great show.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以当制作人本身也成为音乐名人时，当你习惯了为其他明星做配角时，你需要多少个人魅力呢？
And so as producers become sort of musical celebrities in their own right, how much charisma do you need when you're you're used to sort of taking a backseat to another star?
所以当主唱并不容易。
So not easy to be a front man.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我同意Dijon的唱片非常具有沉浸感。
But I agree that Dijon record is very, like, enveloping.
我认为现场演出不太成功的部分原因在于，很多环节都显得断断续续、时停时起。
And I think part of what was less successful about the live show was that there is this sort of, like, broken up stop start nature to a lot of it.
你知道，他显然深受Prince的影响。
You know, he's obviously very indebted to Prince.
你能感受到类似Prince那种放克风格，但他又会突然转变。
You'd getting sort of like a Prince like funky vibe, but then he would change it up.
是啊。
Yeah.
这很有趣，能让你保持警觉。
Which is interesting, and it it keeps you on your toes.
但作为现场体验可能稍显逊色。
But it it was maybe a little bit of a less successful live experience.
林赛，我知道你在名单上写了关于，这么说吧，新一代纽约市摇滚乐队的崛起。
Lindsey, I know you on your list wrote about, let's say, next generation, a new generation of New York City rock bands that are coming out.
其中有一支叫Geese的乐队，我有一些看法。
One of them is a band named Geese, and I have thoughts.
不过我想先听听你的想法。
But I'd love to hear your thoughts first.
哦，凯伦也有看法，我们大家对Geese都有看法。
Oh, Karen has thoughts too, and we all have thoughts about Geese.
其实，我的年度最佳专辑就是Geese的《Getting Killed》。
Actually, my my album of the year is Geese's album Getting Killed.
这专辑名字起得真棒。
Great album title.
《Geese Getting Killed》。
Geese Getting Killed.
我超爱这张专辑。
I I love this record.
我觉得这张专辑既令人振奋又充满新奇与怪异，从开场曲目开始就仿佛踏入了一个完整的音乐世界。
I find it just exhilaratingly inventive and strange, and it just feels like a whole sonic world that you step into from the opening track.
过去几个月里我已经播放了无数次。
I've played it so many times over the past few months.
而Geese就是Geese。
And Geese are Geese is.
Geese是。
Geese is.
Geese是。
Geese are.
Geese是一支来自布鲁克林、年轻得惊人的乐队。
Geese is a band of astoundingly depressingly young people from Brooklyn.
我想乐队成员都是23岁，这已经是他们的第三张专辑了。
I think everyone in the band is 23, and this is their third album.
所以他们已经坚持做音乐有一段时间了。
So they've they've been at it for a while.
他们由主唱卡梅隆·温特的独特嗓音引领，我在简介中将其比作香菜——有些人爱之入骨。
They're helmed by the vocal stylings of frontman Cameron Winter, which I think in my blurb, I I likened to cilantro in that some people love it.
而有些人则因基因使然觉得它尝起来像肥皂，我感觉此刻正与两位后者同席而坐。
And then some people have the gene where it tastes like soap to them, and I think I'm I'm getting the impression that I'm sitting with two of them right now.
你根本不知道我要说什么。
You don't know what I'm gonna say.
确实如此，我已迫不及待想听了。
This is true, and I can't wait to hear.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我非常喜欢卡梅隆·温特的嗓音。
But I I love Cameron Winter's voice.
他去年底发行的个人专辑《重金属》比这张Geese乐队的唱片更怪异孤绝，却标志着他作为词曲作者找到了真正突破性的个人表达方式。
He released a solo album at the end of last year called Heavy Metal that is even stranger and more forlorn than this Geeze record, but felt like a real breakthrough for him as a songwriter, finding his own very distinct songwriting voice.
Geese乐队完美融合了我钟爱的卡梅隆·温特唱片元素与同样深得我心的摇滚乐。
Getting killed from Geese married that Cameron Winter record, which I really like, with rock and roll, which I also really like.
但我感觉
But I I feel
我觉得我现在像是在受刑
I feel I like I am being tortured right now.
真的，就是在受刑
Actually, tortured.
但是吉尔伯特，我真的很想知道你的想法
But, Gilbert, I really wanna know what you think.
因为这个假期周末，我和家人看了一部我们看过很多遍的电影
So this weekend, because it's the holiday season, my family and I watched a movie we'd seen many times before.
叫做《艾米特水獭的壶罐乐队圣诞节》
It's called Emmett Otters' Jugband Christmas.
圣诞节
Christmas.
哦，是的
Oh, yeah.
这真的很酷。
And That's really cool.
对我来说，卡梅隆·温特听起来像是吉姆·汉森创造的角色。
Cameron Winter, to me, sounds like a Jim Henson creation.
我完全听不懂他的声音。
I just don't understand his voice at all.
我觉得他应该加入河底摇滚乐队之类的。
I I think he'd be in, like, the River Bottom rock rock band.
我不知道。
I don't know.
他的声音有种特别的……
There's something about his voices like
一种赞美。
a compliment.
有点嚎叫的感觉。
It's a little yowling.
你知道吗？
You know?
有种嚎叫的感觉。
There's a yowl.
嚎叫感很强烈。
There's a lot of yowl.
是啊。
Yeah.
是那种直白的嚎叫，
It's yowl forward,
我得说。
I would say.
问题是，我最初听这张专辑时很讨厌它，这个周末我连续听了五遍。
The thing is, I hated this album the first time first couple times I listened to it, and I put it on five times this weekend.
可能实际上就像...我需要把脑袋浸在水桶里一样，因为听得越多就越能接受，甚至可能开始喜欢上它了。
And and it might actually be like, I just need to dunk my head into the bucket because the more I listen to it, the more I was okay with it, and then maybe the more even I started to like it.
我不确定我是否会欣赏他的嗓音，尽管那是上天赐予他的声音。
I don't know that I will ever appreciate his voice, which is his god given voice.
我尊重他的嗓音。
All respect to his voice.
但这里存在一个障碍。
But there is a there there's a hurdle.
对此确实存在一个障碍。
There's a hurdle to this.
确实。
Sure.
这有点像科米特香菜的感觉，就是这样。
It is slightly it's like Kermit Cilantro is what it is.
我其实挺想看看那个布偶的。
I I would like to see that Muppet, actually.
我
I
卡梅隆·温特木偶吗？
would The Cameron Winter Muppet?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
他肯定会
He's definitely gonna
在某个时候出现在《芝麻街》上。
be on Sesame Street at some point.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得那会吓到孩子们。
I think that would disturb the children.
只是
Just
不知道有多在乎，所以我感觉我处于中间立场，稍微偏向林赛的方向。
don't know how much Care so I'm I feel like I'm in the middle, moving slightly Lindsay's direction.
欢迎。
Welcome.
凯伦出局了，彻底出局了。
Karen is out, out, out.
我也完全出局了。
I'm so out.
我不知道这张专辑想表达什么，我大概明白它试图唤起六七十年代纽约乐队的精神，但对我来说完全没达到效果。
I don't know what this album I mean, I think I know what this album is trying to do, and it is trying to conjure the spirit of seventies sixties, seventies New York bands, and it just doesn't do it for me at all.
这个周末我确实尝试反复听了几遍，是的。
And I did try repeated listenings this weekend Yeah.
试图问自己：我是不是没给它足够的时间？
In attempt to say, am I am I just not giving it enough time?
我每次听都更讨厌它了。
I think I hated it more every time.
里面只有我喜欢的音乐的影子，但我不想忽视一个事实：对很多Z世代和更年轻的人来说，这是他们第一次接触这类声音。
There's just shadows of the music that I like in it, and I don't wanna discount the fact that for a lot of people, Gen Z and younger, this is their first interfacing with these sounds.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们觉得这些声音很刺激，我觉得这很棒。
And they're finding them thrilling, and I think that is awesome.
所以我不想像个疯狂的老古董在这里说什么'过去的日子更好'这种话。
So I don't wanna be like a crazy old ageist, you know, fuddy duddy here and be like, it was all better in the old days.
这些人借鉴的音乐确实很有价值。
The music that these people are drawing on is very valuable.
我们说的是Lou Reed的《Suicide Television》。
You know, we're talking about Lou Reed's suicide television.
这些都是很棒的灵感来源。
I mean, these are wonderful sources.
在我看来，他们并没有成功做到这一点。
To me, they're not doing it successfully.
对我来说这就像一锅大杂烩。
It just feels like a mishmash to me.
但我觉得这种两极分化的现象很有意思。
But I think it's interesting just how divisive it is.
而且——我不想说这是我喜欢的部分原因，因为我确实就是爱这张专辑。
And and that's part of I don't wanna say that's part of what I like about it because I do just love this record.
但我觉得一支纽约独立摇滚乐队能引发如此强烈的争议和反响很让人耳目一新，无论你是爱它还是恨它。
But I think it's refreshing that an indie rock band from New York is getting this much of a rise out of people and a reaction, you know, whether you love it or hate it.
我认为另一个值得讨论的趋势是——今年确实是摇滚乐的好年份，对吧？
And I think another trend we wanna discuss is is it was actually a good year for rock, Yeah.
问号？
Question mark?
对我来说，摇滚乐每年都算得上好年份。
I mean, for me, it's always kind of a good year for rock.
当然。
Sure.
当然。
Sure.
但我觉得我真正欣赏Geese乐队的一点是，每隔几年就会出现这种讨论：摇滚乐死了吗？
But I I think something that I that I really embrace about Geese too is, you know, every year, every few years that you get the think pieces, is rock music dead?
但我认为今年有很多年轻乐队找到了方法，创作出能引起他们同龄人共鸣的摇滚乐，这些音乐感觉既新颖又独特，采用了截然不同的创作方式。
But I think this this was a year when a lot of younger bands were finding ways to make rock music that resonated with their cohort and that felt somehow new and novel and, like, a distinct approach to it.
关于Geese乐队，上个月我看他们现场演出时，人们甚至在民谣时段玩起了人浪冲浪。
Something about Geese, when I saw them live last month, people were crowd surfing to the ballads.
我从未见过这种场面。
I've never seen that before.
你知道，现场氛围真的太热烈了。
You know, there was such an energy there.
你能听到我翻白眼的声音吗？
Can can you hear my eye roll?
凯伦。
Karen.
凯伦，你怎么能
Karen, how could
你 这很有趣。
you It was fun.
不欣赏这种热情呢？
Not appreciate this enthusiasm?
呃。
Ugh.
我在听呢。
I listen.
我超爱独立摇滚带来的兴奋感。
I love excitement for indie rock.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
在我们继续之前，让我们聊聊另一支纽约摇滚乐队，我想你们可能会在这支乐队上达成共识。
Before we move on, let's talk about one other New York rock band that I I think maybe that you you can come in agreement on this one.
我们都喜欢那首歌。
We both like that song.
确实如此。
We do.
给我们讲讲吧。
Tell us about it.
这支乐队叫'Water From Your Eyes'。
The band is Water From Your Eyes.
或者像我男朋友称呼他们的那样——'眼泪'。
Or as my boyfriend calls them, tears.
我懂这个笑话的梗。
I get I get the joke.
'Water From Your Eyes'本质上是由Nate Amos和Rachel Brown组成的二人组合。
Water From Your Eyes is essentially a duo of Nate Amos and Rachel Brown.
内特·阿莫斯在这张唱片中疯狂弹奏吉他，大量层次分明的失真效果，就是那种厚重有力的吉他音色，我知道这是卡伦和我都喜欢的。
Nate Amos wailing away on the guitar on this record, lots of layered distortion, just big crunchy guitar sounds, which I know is something Karen and I both enjoy.
内特·阿莫斯
Nate Amos
而蕾切尔·布朗用这种面无表情的方式'演唱'。
And Rachel Brown sings, in quotes, with this deadpan.
歌词非常有趣，几乎像是口语诗。
Just really interesting lyrics, almost kind of spoken word poetry.
他们很有趣。
They're funny.
他们很阴暗。
They're dark.
他们反映了我们所处的这个末世时代。
They're about these apocalyptic times that we live in.
这两种能量的结合创造出了极具吸引力的音乐。
And something about those two energies coming together makes for really compelling music.
我认为在某种程度上，这是一张由未曾经历过那个时代的人们创作的九十年代另类摇滚唱片。
I I think this is, in some ways, an alternative rock nineties record made by people that did not live through.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我完全同意这一点。
I totally agree with that.
而且这其中确实有种令人满足的感觉。
And and there's something really satisfying about that.
没错。
Yeah.
在我看来，这是当下布鲁克林最令人兴奋的乐队。
To me, this is the exciting Brooklyn band at the moment.
琳赛，我想请你谈谈今年出现在你榜单上的另一个趋势。
Lindsey, I'd love for you to talk about one more trend that appeared on your list this year.
好的。
Sure.
我后来整理清单时才注意到，今年有很多英国女性在创作有趣的流行音乐，而且这些流行音乐涵盖的范围非常广泛。
I noticed when putting my list together only afterwards that there were a lot of British women making interesting pop music this year and and pop music under a very large umbrella.
我先从我认为今年第十喜欢的专辑开始说起，Pink Pantheris的《Fancy That》。
I'll start by talking about, I think, my my tenth favorite album of the year, Fancy That by Pink Pantheris.
这
This
是一张我认为很简短的专辑，大约二十分钟。
is a quick, I think, twenty minute album.
所以如果你听不完Swag或Morgan Mullen的唱片，注意力无法集中，我有个推荐给你？
So if you couldn't get through swag or the Morgan Mullen record, you don't have the attention span, I do I have a recommendation for you?
Pink Pantheris是几年前崭露头角的一位艺人，她无论是作为制作人还是歌手都有着非常独特的声音，但似乎她之前只专注于一种风格，并且做得很好。
Pink Panther is is someone who came on the scene a few years ago, had a very distinct sound as both a a producer and a vocalist, but seemed like she kind of had one lane and one sound that she was doing really well.
而这张专辑让我感觉耳目一新。
And this this album feels really refreshing to me.
这次她的风格更加轻快、活泼，甚至带点调情的意味。
This is her doing something a lot lighter, more effervescent, kind of flirty.
她以前的歌曲多是关于心碎的，但这几乎是一张讲述萌芽恋情故事的概念专辑。
A lot of her songs previously were about heartbreak, but this is almost a concept album that tells the story of this burgeoning romance.
真的很棒。
It's really good.
这展现了她不为人知的一面，我甚至不确定她是否具备这种特质。
And it shows a side of her that I think was was maybe I was not sure was there.
这正回应了那个问题：如何在突破后继续发展，如何在快速变化的行业中持续精进
It's it's it's it's an artist who going back to this idea of how do you follow breakthroughs and how do you continue to develop your
嗯。
Mhmm.
你的艺术造诣。
Your artistry in in an industry that is moving so fast.
我认为这张专辑展现了她不为人知的新境界，是一张令人愉悦的唱片。
I think this just finds her shifting into another gear that I was not aware she had, and I think it's a delightful record.
我觉得过去几年有很多人都在试图模仿她的风格。
I think a lot of people have been trying to sound like her over the past few years.
她的声音有点高亢、带点气声，而且她的曲目通常都是相当欢快的舞曲。
She's got, like, you know, sort of a high pitched, breathy vocal, and her, you know, tracks are generally pretty upbeat dance music.
就像...对。
Like Yeah.
你知道吗，莉莉·艾伦在新专辑的一首歌里还模仿了她。
You know, Lily Allen bit her on one of the songs on the new album.
里面有很多这样的元素。
There's a bunch of stuff.
所以我也很喜欢这张专辑。
So I thought I love this record too.
而且二十分钟的长度简直太棒了。
Also, twenty minutes, incredible length.
没错，这些歌曲确实更有那种活力四射的感觉。
And, yeah, these songs definitely have more of an effervescence to them.
我还想指出，林赛在上张专辑里对粉红豹进行了人物特写
I also wanna point out that Lindsay profiled Pink Panther on the previous record
嗯哼
Mhmm.
还在过山车上差点吐在她身上
And almost threw up on her on a roller coaster.
我就在想这事会不会被提起来
I was wondering if this was gonna come up.
真的吗？
Really?
是啊
Yeah.
发生了什么？
What happened?
对
Yeah.
粉红豹很喜欢过山车。
So Pink Panther loves roller coasters.
我们真该让她参加一期过山车主题的节目。
And We should have had her on a roller coaster episode.
我完全不知道这事。
I had no idea.
噢，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
必须得拍第二部。
Gotta gotta do part two.
要抓住这些机会啊。
Shout out the opportunities.
没错。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我其实不喜欢过山车，尤其是随着年龄增长。
I don't love roller coasters or especially as I get older.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我容易晕车。
I'm prone to motion sickness.
所以这次选题和作者真是绝配。
So this was a great pairing of subject and writer.
真的吗？
Really?
他们去了美国梦购物中心。
They went to the American Dream Mall.
我们去了。
We did.
哦。
Oh.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们第一次一起坐的过山车是会旋转的那种。
And the first roller coaster we rode together was a spinny one.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
我差点在粉红豹过山车上吐出来。
And I really came close to vomiting on Pink Panther's.
你告诉她了吗？
Did you let her know?
哦，当然。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
然后她...她说了些什么
And she I she said something.
她对此非常体贴，她说，我觉得了解自己的极限是件好事，或者类似的话。
She was very sweet about it, and she's like, I think it's good to know your limits or something.
然后她又坐了大概五趟过山车，而我只能站在旁边看着她。
And then she rode, like, five more roller coasters while I stood and watched her.
顺便说一句，这真是对时间的绝妙利用。
It's an amazing use of your time, by way.
是啊。
Yeah.
确实。
It was.
确实。
It was.
Karen，你刚才提到了Lily Allen。
Karen, you mentioned Lily Allen.
我觉得她去年秋天发布这张专辑时，正是小报新闻满天飞的时期。
I feel like this was quite a tabloid moment when she released this album late this fall.
真不敢相信时代潮流又回到了莉莉·艾伦身上。
I can't believe that the zeitgeist has swung back to Lily Allen.
但没错，莉莉·艾伦基本上就是发布了一个充满细节的叙事性作品，讲述了一个香艳的故事。
But, yes, Lily Allen basically put out, like, a narrative, intricately detailed recounting of of a Salacious story.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就是她专辑的缩影，只不过表面上是自传性质的，讲述了她婚姻破裂和出轨丈夫的故事。
And that's her album in a nutshell, except it's ostensibly autobiographical about the dissolution of her marriage and her cheating husband.
你们都跟我一起来了。
You all came with me.
玛德琳是谁？
And who's Madeleine?
真的很长。
It's really long.
你得坚持听完整个故事线，不过里面确实有几首非常棒的歌曲。
You kind of have to stick with it, you know, to to get through the entire narrative, but there are some actually really great songs on there.
是啊。
Yeah.
玛德琳是谁？
Who's Madeline?
没错。
Exactly.
玛德琳是谁？
Who's Madeline?
这货是谁？
Who the bleep?
玛德琳是谁？
Who's Madeline?
我喜欢阅读你年终清单的原因之一，就是能发现我在过去十一个月里错过的东西。
One of the reasons I love reading end of your list is that I get to discover things that I missed, you know, in the in the previous eleven months.
我能问问你歌单里那首歌吗？我上周末听了，嗯？
Can I ask you about one song that made your song list that I I listened to it this weekend Yeah?
然后我就爱上它了？
And I just fell in love with it?
是Ella Langley的那首歌。
It was the it was the Ella Langley song.
哦，我正想聊这个。
Oh, I wanted to talk about that.
很高兴你问起。
I'm glad you asked.
《Choose in Texas》？
Choose in Texas?
《Choose in Texas》。
Choose in Texas.
这是首与米兰达·兰伯特合写的凄美乡村情歌，讲述心碎女孩的故事。
It's this beautiful sad girl heartbreak country song co written with Miranda Lambert.
你看，这完全就是我的菜。
So, you know, already speaking my language there.
超爱米兰达。
Love Miranda.
太棒了。
It's great.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是那种无论在六十年代、七十年代、八十年代还是今天都能成为热门经典的好乡村歌曲。
It's just a great country song that you can imagine being a hit in the sixties, in the seventies, in the eighties today.
这首乡村心碎情歌太绝了。
This is great country heartbreak song.
没错。
Yeah.
经典之作。
Classic.
是啊。
Yeah.
每年都需要一首
Every year needs one
这样的歌。
of those.
Karen，我很想快速听你推荐两三首今年你喜欢的歌曲或专辑。
Karen, I'd love two or three real rapid fire recommendations of songs or albums that you were into this year.
说说专辑吧。
Go on albums.
好的。
Okay.
你还记得Sleigh Bells吗？
Do you remember Sleigh Bells?
我当然记得。
I sure do.
他们已经消失很久了。
They've been gone for a very long time.
今年他们带着一张名为《Bunky Becky Birthday Boy》的专辑回归。
They came back this year with an album called Bunky Becky Birthday Boy.
《Bunky Becky Birthday Boy》。
Bunky Becky Birthday Boy.
男孩。
Boy.
这是个头韵混搭词。
It's an alliterative amalgam.
你说得非常好。
You did that very well.
谢谢。
Thank you.
《Bunky Becky Birthday Girl》。
Bunky Becky Birthday Girl.
Bunky Becky绝对是一张惊艳的唱片。
Bunky Becky Absolutely amazing record.
这张专辑风格多变，它绝妙地提醒了我们：他们正是我们如今在实验性超流行领域所热爱的所有音乐的先驱。
It's all over the place, and it was an amazing reminder of how they were predecessors to all the things that we love in the sort of experimental hyperpop realm.
我还要说海莉·威廉姆斯也发行了另一张出色的专辑。
I will also say Hailey Williams put out another wonderful album.
专辑名叫《单身派对上的自我毁灭》，这标题相当有趣。
It's called Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party, which is a really fun title.
多棒的标题啊。
What a great title.
确实。
It is.
我会成为这场单身派对上最耀眼的明星。
I'll be the biggest star at this bachelorette party bar.
这很特别。
It's different.
几年前，她发行了首张个人专辑，风格更偏向电子与实验性。
A couple of years ago, she had her first solo record, which was, like, a little bit more electronic and experimental.
这张专辑更像经典创作歌手风格，某些时刻带着朋克气息，但情感极为真挚，歌词也相当有趣。
This one's more of, like, a classic singer songwriter, punky at moments record, but extremely heartfelt, really interesting lyrics.
非常出色的作品。
Great stuff there.
然后是Turnstile乐队。
And then there's turnstile.
他们是一支硬核乐队，但现在异常流行化，带着朦胧梦幻和自赏风格，这会让人质疑：他们还算硬核乐队吗？
They're a hardcore band that's, like, exceptionally poppy and gauzy and shoegazy and everything else right now, which would make you say, are they still a hardcore band?
人们总爱问这个问题。
People ask that question.
你知道的，朋克圈的人总喜欢划清界限。
People in punk, you know, they they like to keep their boundaries tight.
他们拉紧连帽衫的抽绳，试图将世界隔绝在外。
They're drawing their hoodie strings in, and trying to keep the world away.
你知道的，我不确定你是否熟悉Ganscore——那是我特别钟爱的音乐类型，但这绝对是Gansy风格的极致体现。
It's very you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Ganscore, which is my particular brand of music, but this is as Gansy as it possibly gets.
感觉我们已经相识一段时间了，所以
I feel like I've known I've known you for a bit, so
我懂。
I get it.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Alright.
感谢两位提供的所有精彩推荐。
Thank you both for all those amazing recommendations.
我们要稍作休息，回来后将按惯例每周玩个小游戏。
We are going to take a break, and when we come back, we are going to play, as we do every week, a little game.
我们要听Sleigh Bell乐队的Bunky, Becky, birthday, baby?
We're gonna listen to Sleigh Bell's Bunky, Becky, birthday, baby?
男孩。
Boy.
男孩？
Boy?
差一点就对了。
So close.
好的，Lindsey和Karen。
Okay, Lindsey and Karen.
我们将以每周惯例的方式结束本期节目。
We are going to finish this episode the way we finish out every week.
我们要玩个游戏。
We are going to play a game.
我们为你们准备了三轮游戏，主题大致是关于今年的音乐。
We have three rounds for you ostensibly about the music of the year.
你们应该按铃抢答，答对就能得分。
You should buzz in to answer, and correct answer gets a point.
好的。
Okay.
你们准备好了吗？
Are are you ready?
我们准备好了。
We are ready.
好的。
Alright.
开始吧。
Here we go.
第一轮，我们称之为'适者生存'。
Round one, which we call viral of the fittest.
今年是流行歌手制造病毒式传播时刻的大年。
It has been a big year for viral moments featuring pop artists.
我会给你们播放一段今年爆红视频中的台词，你们要告诉我这句话是谁说的。
I'm going to give you a quote from a viral video from this year, and you tell me who said that quote.
好的。
Okay.
他们要么是在搞外遇，要么就是特别害羞。
Either they're having an affair or they're just really shy.
凯伦。
Karen.
克里斯·马汀。
Chris Martin.
克里斯·马汀。
Chris Martin.
回答正确。
That is correct.
这是七月份发生的Coldplay门事件中的片段。
That was from Coldplaygate back in July.
要么他们有外遇，要么就是被大家刻意回避。
Either they're having an affair or they're just very shunned.
下一个问题。
Next question.
所以很不幸，你要因为太漂亮而入狱了。
So you are going to jail unfortunately for being too beautiful.
林赛。
Lindsey.
萨布丽娜·卡彭特。
Sabrina Carpenter.
萨布丽娜·卡彭特。
Sabrina Carpenter.
回答正确。
That is correct.
所以很不幸，你要因为太漂亮而入狱了，但我会用这首歌来安慰你
So you are going to jail, unfortunately, for being too beautiful, but I'm gonna serenade you with this so
萨布丽娜在她的'短暂而甜蜜'巡演中，每场演出都会逮捕一名观众，通常是某位名人。
many Sabrina arrested an audience member, often somebody famous at each of the shows on her short and sweet tour.
下一个。
Next.
一、二、三，占据空间。
One, two, three, take up space.
一、二、三，占据空间。
One, two, three, take up space.
好的。
Okay.
那是太空中的凯蒂·佩里。
That's Katy Perry in space.
哦。
Oh.
一、二、三。
One, two, three.
占据空间。
Take up space.
你还记得这是凯蒂·佩里去的那一年吗
Do you remember this was the year that This Katy Perry went to
这一年真的很漫长，吉尔伯特。
is been a really long year, Gilbert.
确实如此。
Sure has.
好的。
Okay.
这是个面包的故事。
It's a loaf story.
宝贝，就说酵母。
Baby, just say yeast.
林赛。
Lindsay.
泰勒·斯威夫特。
Taylor Swift.
这确实是泰勒·斯威夫特出现在《新高度》播客上。
This was indeed Taylor Swift on the New Heights podcast.
这是个面包故事。
It's a loaf story.
宝贝，就说酵母。
Baby, just say yeast.
酵母。
Yeast.
就说酵母。
Just say yeast.
好吧。
Alright.
该做选择题了。
Time for a multiple choice.
今年的热门歌曲，虽然严格来说是去年发行的，是Role Model的《Sally When the Wine Runs Out》。
A big song of the year, even though it technically came out last year, is role model's Sally When the Wine Runs Out.
当Role Model现场表演《Sally》时，他经常邀请一位名人在歌曲的间奏部分跳舞。
When role model performs Sally live, he often brings out a celebrity to dance during the song's breakdown.
我的Sally今晚在哪里？
Where's my Sally tonight?
嗯。
Yeah.
以下哪位名人从未担任过Role Model《Sally》的伴舞嘉宾？
Which one of the following celebrities has not been one of role model Sally's?
奥利维亚·罗德里戈、格雷西·艾布拉姆斯、阿尔·罗克，还是娜塔莉·波特曼？
Olivia Rodrigo, Gracie Abrams, Al Roker, or Natalie Portman?
凯伦。
Karen.
我猜是娜塔莉·波特曼。
I'm gonna say Natalie Portman.
错误。
Incorrect.
格蕾西·艾布拉姆斯是
Gracie Abrams was
不，我没机会偷答。
not I don't get to steal.
你本来是想猜罗克吗？
Were you were you gonna guess Roker?
这就对了。
There you go.
不是。
No.
我就知道娜塔莉·波特曼会很有趣。
I knew Natalie Portman was fun.
好吧。
Alright.
你没机会偷答了。
You do not get to steal.
我就知道奥利维亚会很有趣。
I knew I knew Olivia was fun.
抱歉。
Sorry.
第一轮到此结束。
That is the end of round one.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我要输了。
I'm I'm losing.
我不知道，因为我没有实时计分。
I don't know because I'm not keeping score in real time.
谁领先谁落后？
Who's winning and who is losing?
我们最后会一起揭晓答案。
We're all gonna find out together at the end.
第二轮，儿童金曲还是儿童败笔？
Round two, kids bop or kids flop?
你们都熟悉儿童金曲吗？
You're both familiar with kids bop?
当然。
Of course.
哦，
Oh,
是啊。
yeah.
这是一系列由年轻歌手翻唱流行歌曲的儿童专辑。
Series of albums for kids where young singers cover popular songs.
我会说一首最近的流行歌曲，你们要告诉我儿童金曲是否翻唱过这首歌。
I'm going to name a recent pop song, and you are going to tell me if kids bop has covered that song.
我喜欢这个。
I like this.
好的。
Okay.
然后
And
接着我讨厌
then I hate
它。
it.
这会很难。
It's gonna be hard.
但是
But
首先是布鲁诺·马尔斯和罗斯的APT或Apata。
First, APT or Apata by Bruno Mars and Rose.
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