周日特辑：我们在学校读过的书

大家好，我是桑德拉·e·加西亚，《纽约时报》的一名记者。我在风尚版块工作，我们通过追踪文化动态来理解这个复杂的世界。我们想带您站在文化变革的最前沿，告诉您为何某些事物会流行。正是订阅用户的支持让这类深度报道成为可能，使《纽约时报》得以持续关注那些超越突发新闻的故事。

Hi. My name is Sandra e Garcia, and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for the styles desk where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We wanna take you to the forefront of cultural shifts and let you know why things are trending. Our subscribers make this kind of coverage possible so The New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news.

请访问nytimes.com/subscribe订阅我们，共同把握文化脉搏。

Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes.com slash subscribe.

大家好，我是瑞秋。今天想温馨提醒各位：从现在起到今年年底的每个周日，我的同事吉尔伯特·克鲁兹都会在这里。他将与轮换的评论家、编辑、记者和作家们畅谈艺术文化。本周随着孩子们重返课堂，吉尔伯特和嘉宾们将讨论经典文学作品。

Hi, everyone. It's Rachel. I'm here with just a friendly reminder that today and every Sunday through the end of the year, my colleague, Gilbert Cruz, is going to be here. He's talking arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics, editors, reporters, and writers. This week, with kids back in the classroom, Gilbert and his guests talk classic books.

那些你可能在校时爱不释手的书，或是当年不太喜欢但现在却有点着迷的作品。你们还会听到能帮助孩子爱上阅读的书籍推荐。希望您能收听。

The ones that you may have loved reading in school, or maybe the ones you didn't really love reading in school but kinda love now. You'll also hear about books that could help kids fall in love with reading. Hope you'll take a listen.

欢迎收听周日特辑，我是《纽约时报》书评编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。全美各地的孩子们都已返校——在纽约市刚开学不久，但有些孩子（这总让我惊讶）已经返校数周了。无论您身处何地，孩子们迟早会被指定阅读某些书籍，而他们看着书单时可能会想：这些到底是什么？

Welcome everyone to the Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, the book review editor here at the Times. All across America, kids are back in school. Here in New York City, school has just started, but some kids, this is always surprising to me, have been back for weeks. Regardless of where you're located, children are eventually going to be assigned some books to read, and those kids will look at that list and maybe they'll think, what the heck are these?

家长们看着书单可能也会疑惑：这些是什么？我们现在还在读《人鼠之间》吗？所以今天我们要讨论校园读物，特别是那些我们曾经和现在仍在阅读的经典。与我共同探讨的是书评同事萨迪·斯坦——每当自诩博览群书时，我只要看看坐在办公室隔壁的萨迪就立刻谦卑起来。

And maybe their parents will look at that list and they will think, what the heck are these? Are we still reading Of Mice and Men? And so today, we're talking about books, especially the books we read in school and the books we continue to read in school. Here with me to talk about all this is my colleague from the book review, Sadie Stein. Whenever I think I am a well read person, all I have to do is look at Sadie who sits right next to me in the office.

她读过数量惊人的书籍，总能让我认清差距。萨迪，欢迎你。

She's read an astonishing number of books, and I'm immediately put in my place. Sadie, welcome.

谢谢。别给我压力啊。说实话，你们会发现我早期阅读存在很多明显空白...

Thank you. No pressure. I mean, you're you're gonna find a lot of glaring holes, I think, in my early reading, but

还有位令人兴奋的嘉宾——来自加利福尼亚的路易斯·萨奇尔，他创作了多部深受青少年喜爱的作品，包括著名的《歪歪路小学》系列（我认为没有哪套书比它更能捕捉校园生活的荒诞）。他也是经典青少年小说《洞》的作者，最近刚推出首部成人向作品《虎堡魔术师》。路易斯，欢迎！

we'll And joining us from California, this is very exciting. The author of several beloved books for young people, including the famous Wayside School books, which I think might capture better than almost any other series, just how weird school can be sometimes. He's also the author of the classic young adult novel Holes, and he has just released his first book for adults, The Magician of Tiger Castle. Lewis Sacker, welcome.

谢谢，很荣幸参与节目。

Thank you. It's great to be here.

鉴于我们中有一位作者和两位编辑，我想公平地说，作为成年人，我们现在都是书籍爱好者。但是，萨迪和刘易斯，你们从小时候起就一直热爱书籍吗？

Given that we are an author and and and two editors, I think it's fair to say that we're all book lovers now as adults, as grown ups. But, you know, Sadie and and Lewis, did you always love books from the beginning, from the time that you were a young child?

我小时候读了很多书。你知道的，学乐书展来的时候，我总是会订购两三本书。我不确定那是否意味着我热爱阅读。真正让我印象深刻的是四年级时老师给我们大声朗读的一本书，这让我很惊讶。我不知道四年级老师还会大声朗读，但她读了《夏洛的网》。

I read a lot as a child. You know, the Scholastic Book Fairs would come through, and I'd always order two or three books. I don't know that that they that I loved reading. The one book that stands out was actually our teacher read to us out loud when I was in fourth grade, which surprised me. I didn't know teachers still read books aloud in fourth grade, but she read Charlotte's Web.

我非常喜欢那本书。糟糕的是，我在课堂上哭了，但那很有趣，也很感人。我完全沉浸在故事中，想知道接下来会发生什么。

And I just loved it. You know, the bad part was I cried in class at the end, but it was funny. It was emotional. I was completely caught up in the story. You know, I wanted to find out what happened next.

那真的激发了我对阅读的热爱。我认为给孩子读书非常重要。因为，除了老师读那本书，我对四年级的其他事情一无所知。

That's really what what I think started my love of reading. I think it's so important for people to read to kids. Because, you know, I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.

我想我在四年级也有同样的经历。我记得老师可能读过《失落的岛屿》？

I I I think the same thing is true of me in fourth grade. I think I remember a teacher reading maybe island of the lost Island of the Lost?

《蓝色海豚岛》。

Blue Dolphins.

或者是《秘密花园》。我只记得坐着听老师朗读，当老师用故事吸引全班时，那是一种神奇的体验。

Of the or Blue The Secret Garden. I just remember sitting and having a teacher read to me, which can be like a magical experience when your teacher is just holding an entire class wrapped with a story.

有趣的是你们都提到了四年级，因为我在思考这个话题时，意识到那是最神奇的一年，无论是自己阅读还是听老师朗读。我的老师玛丽·尼尔是一位非常有天赋的朗读者，我记得她读了《混血儿巴塞尔夫人的档案》。

Well, it's funny that you both brought up fourth grade because when I was when I was thinking about this subject, I realized that was the year that was most magical, both reading to myself and having the teacher read. And my teacher, Mary Neal, was a really gifted reader, and I remember she read from the mixed up files of missus Basile Frankweiler.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她每天都会大声朗读给我们听，我们会一边编织或做小学时的各种手工。那真是不可思议。应该说我不是一个早熟的读者，真正让我爱上阅读的是第一本《贝琪·泰西》的书。之后我就一发不可收拾了。我记得8到11岁那段时间，就是不停地、不加选择地阅读，一直如此。

And she read aloud to us every day, and we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school. And it was just incredible. I should say I was not an early reader, and I think what really started me loving it was the first Betsy Tacy book. Then I was just kind of off to the races. And I remember kind of the ages of eight to 11 as just incessant, indiscriminate, reading all the time, constantly.

抱歉。在我们继续之前，贝琪·泰西系列书籍是什么？

Sorry. Before we go any further, what are the Betsy Tacy books?

贝琪·泰西系列由玛德哈特·洛夫莱斯创作，我想她是在二十世纪四十年代写的。最初是她给年幼的女儿玛丽昂·洛夫莱斯讲述自己在明尼苏达州曼卡托的童年故事，后来发展成这套儿童读物系列。故事从她五岁生日开始，到她结婚结束。作品的文字难度随着主人公年龄增长而提升，这些书非常迷人。

The Betsy Tacy books were written by Madhart Lovelace. I think she wrote them in the nineteen forties. She started by telling her young daughter, Marion Lovelace, about her childhood growing up in Mankato, Minnesota, and turned them into this series of children's books, which start when she's five, her fifth birthday, and end when she is married. And the level of the writing ages as as she ages, and they're magical.

你看，我开场时说萨迪·斯坦多么博览群书，这正是我所说的例证。

You see, when I said at the beginning about how well read Sadie Stein is, this is this is exactly what I was talking about.

哦，你会发现只要提起这些书，热爱它们的人都会表现出极大热情。

Oh, I think you'll find, if you bring this up, people who love these books are passionate about them.

刘易斯，你之前听说过这些书吗？

Lewis, had you ever heard of these books?

从没听过。穆奇真是见多识广。

I never have. Mooch is amazing.

我也是。我大概在十岁或十一岁时成了个痴迷的读者，说来遗憾，这源于电影。我会先看电影，然后想读原著。因此我迷上了斯蒂芬·金——至今仍痴迷不已——还有汤姆·克兰西、约翰·格里森姆、迈克尔·克莱顿、安妮·赖斯等人。看了《侏罗纪公园》《夜访吸血鬼》或《糖衣陷阱》后，我就会去读原著，对这些通俗小说家产生了狂热兴趣。

Me neither. Became sort of an obsessive reader, I feel like right around 10 or 11, and it unfortunately was because of movies. I would watch a movie and then I would want to read the book on which it was based. And so Stephen King, who I continued to maintain an obsession with, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Anne Rice, all these people. I would see Jurassic Park or Interview with the Vampire or The Firm, and I would read the book, and I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors.

后来这发展成纯粹的阅读渴望，我手边永远有本书。刘易斯，我记得在哪里读到过你直到高中才成为 avid 读者？

And then that led into just wanting to read all the time. I always had a book in my hands. Lewis, I feel like I read somewhere that you didn't become a big reader until high school.

没错。我七十年代初上高中，人们谈起那个年代总聚焦在反主流文化、毒品和音乐上。但大家忘了，至少在我和朋友们心中，我们最崇拜的是库尔特·冯内古特、肯·克西和J.D.塞林格这样的人，那才是我真正爱上阅读的时候。

Right. You know, I was in high school in the early 1970s, and when people talk about those times, they focus on the counterculture and the drugs and the music. But people forget where some of the leaders of that, or at least among me and my friends, some of the people we most admired were people like Kurt Vonnegut and Ken Kesey and J. D. Salinger, and that's when I really started loving books.

记得我和一个朋友——不记得怎么开始的——人手一本塞林格的《九故事》。这不是课程要求，我们每晚各读一篇，第二天讨论，因为那些故事里值得琢磨的东西太多了。

I remember a friend of mine and I I don't remember how we started on this but we each had a copy of Nine Stories by J. D. Salinger. This wasn't through any class. We'd each just read a story a night and then talk about it the next day because there was so much to try to understand in those stories.

我是说，比如有个故事结尾讲一个人把鸡肉三明治放在口袋里两周之类的。我就想，这和故事有什么关系？但就是这类东西，让我爱不释手。

I mean, like one story ended about with a person having kept a chicken sandwich in his pocket for two weeks or something. And it's like, what did that have to do with the story? And, you know, things like that. And and and I just loved it.

刘易斯，我很好奇，作为为年轻人写作或曾为年轻人写作的人，经过这几十年，你是否总结出什么理论——到底是什么能吸引孩子？比如，什么样的书或故事对年轻人特别有吸引力？

I'm I'm curious, Lewis, as someone who writes for young people or has written for young people, have you been able to develop over these many decades a theory about what what what hooks a kid? Like, what makes a book or a story particularly appealing for a young person?

我认为首先得吸引我自己。所以我写自己喜欢的，而且不会用居高临下的语气对孩子说话。我尊重读者的智慧和人性，哪怕对方只是个九岁孩子。

I think it has to hook me first. And and so I write what I like, and I don't talk down to the kids. And I respect the reader's intelligence and humanity even if it's a nine year old.

嗯。

Mhmm.

孩子们和我喜欢同样的东西，而且不喜欢被说教的感觉。

They like the same things I like and and don't feel like they're being preached to.

是啊。你知道吗，我家孩子这周刚上幼儿园，所以我现在正深入接触儿童文学。很多经典童书确实经久不衰——你提到的E·B·怀特作品在我们家就特别受欢迎。

Yeah. You know, I I have a a young kid just starting kindergarten this week, in fact. And so I'm very deep in kids' literature right now. And so many of these books just hold up so well. I mean, you mentioned Eby White, which which has been a huge hit in our house.

不过我小时候对这些书不太感冒，因为我总觉得自己不喜欢动物故事——现在也还是不喜欢马主题的书。要是故事里出现小孩遇见马的桥段，我就直接弃读了。但现在重读才发现，怀特真是个天才，那些书太棒了。最近我还在重读娜塔莉·巴比特...

And those weren't books I was that involved with as a kid because I never I had this idea that I didn't like animal stories, and I I still I didn't like horse books. Like, if a kid met a horse, I was I was out. But but reading them now, they he's a genius. I mean, those books are great. And, like, I've been rereading Natalie Babbitt.

太惊艳了。这些作家都了不起。要吸引孩子，你必须特别擅长给予他们应有的尊重——尊重他们对幽默、尊严、深刻情感的感知力，以及像罗尔德·达尔笔下那种对危险氛围的体会能力。

Amazing. I mean, these are are fantastic writers. I think you have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to treat give them credit for for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace like Roald Dahl does.

确实。这就像人们常对即将为人父母者说的——当你不太清楚如何与孩子相处时，其实只要正常交流就行。他们也是人，不能因为年纪小就用居高临下的语气或幼稚化语言。

Mhmm. I mean, it is the thing that people tell you maybe before you become a parent when you are perhaps a little bit unclear about how to interact with a child or talk to a child. It's just like, just talk to them. They're a person. Just because they're younger doesn't mean you have to, you know, speak down to them or, you know, use a certain type of language.

就像刘易斯你说的，只要真诚地为孩子创作，尝试站在他们的视角，他们自然会产生共鸣——你的书已经证明了这点。接下来我想聊聊校园阅读，最近有项研究比较了2025年中学课堂与1989年（上次同类研究时间）的教学书目，发现除了其他变化外...

It's just like talk to them and they'll talk back. And I feel like, Louis, what you're saying is just, you know, write for them, try to inhabit their perspective, you know, and and they will respond to it, which I think they have with your books. Yeah. So that's, you know, I think that's us as as young readers. I want to talk a little bit about being, you know, a reader in school because recently a study came out that in addition to many other things, compare the books that are taught now in 2025 to middle and high school students with the books that were taught to middle and high school students in 1989, which was the last time sort of a study of this type was undertaken.

这10本书中有6本完全一样。我想快速浏览一下这份清单，听听你的看法。让我逐一列出这10本：《罗密欧与朱丽叶》——威廉·莎士比亚，《了不起的盖茨比》——F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德，《萨勒姆的女巫》——阿瑟·米勒，《麦克白》——威廉·莎士比亚。

And six of the 10 books were exactly the same. I'd love to quickly run through that list and get your thoughts on it. So let me go through all 10 here. Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare, The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Crucible by Arthur Miller, Macbeth by William Shakespeare.

萨迪表现得非常...她就像在说，对，莎士比亚。点赞。《人鼠之间》——约翰·斯坦贝克，《杀死一只知更鸟》——哈珀·李，《夜》——埃利·维塞尔，《哈姆雷特》——莎士比亚，《华氏451度》——雷·布拉德伯里，以及《弗兰肯斯坦》——玛丽·雪莱。对于这10本书，尤其是其中三部莎士比亚戏剧作为中小学英语文学教育的核心教材，你怎么看？

Sadie's putting up very she's like, yeah, Shakespeare. Thumbs up. Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, Knight by Ellie Weisel, Hamlet by Shakespeare, Fahrenheit four fifty one by Ray Bradbury, and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. So what do we think about these 10 books? Three of them being Shakespeare plays, being the books that are most commonly taught to middle and high schoolers as like the backbone of an English literature education.

这些书里有你在中小学时期读过的吗？

Are these books that you remember reading some of them in middle and high school?

我觉得莎士比亚的作品非常难懂。嗯。我找到的最佳阅读方式其实是...我是说，在还没有电脑和现在这些设备的年代。我会去图书馆借唱片，坐在小房间里边听莎士比亚戏剧的录音边看剧本。然后...

I found Shakespeare very difficult to read. Mhmm. The best way I found to read Shakespeare was actually I mean, this was before computers and everything we've got now. I'd go into the library where you can get records and sit in one of these rooms and play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it. And then

对。

it Yeah.

这样才稍微能理解。否则我根本读不下去。

May then it made some sense to me. But, otherwise, I couldn't get through them.

你看，我每年都最喜欢莎士比亚单元，我觉得关键是要有位好老师——我有幸遇到过几位。我记得不是所有，但确实有几段特别经历，尤其是《罗密欧与朱丽叶》。首先我们会分角色表演，大家都很投入。每个单元结束后，我们还能观看电影改编版，比如泽菲雷里版或罗曼·波兰斯基的《麦克白》...

See, I I love the Shakespeare section every year, and I think it really depends on having a very good teacher, and I had a couple. And I remember those not all of them, but but a couple of those experiences, especially Romeo and Juliet, being a way that you know, first of all, we acted them out. People got very into it. And then at the end of each unit, we would get to watch the movie adaptation, whether that be the Zaffirelli or the Roman Polanski Macbeth or

所以他们给你们看的是这些故事最不适合的版本啊。

So they showed you the most inappropriate versions of these stories.

没错。可能这就是为什么我记忆这么美好。我当时在《罗密欧与朱丽叶》里演护士，演得可起劲了。

Yeah. Yeah. So that maybe this is part of why I have such positive memories. But but I got to play, like, the nurse when we read Romeo and Juliet. Got very into it.

萨迪，我觉得你和刘易斯表达的是同个观点——这些作品需要通过表演来感受，不管是听唱片还是看莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥演罗密欧。莎士比亚确实难懂，尤其是那种既优美又晦涩的华丽辞藻。对各个年龄段的孩子来说，它既是西方文学教育的基石，又极难入门。我的立场介于你们两人之间——后来逐渐欣赏，但初次接触时确实被劝退。

I mean, Sadie, I feel like you're saying a version of what Lewis is saying, which is like, you also have to sort of see this performed, whether it's or hear it perform, whether it's listening to a record or seeing Leonardo DiCaprio play Romeo. Shakespeare is is hard, particularly with this heightened language, which is both beautiful and difficult. I feel like for many kids of all ages, it is it is something that is the, in many ways, the backbone of a, you know, Western civilization literature education, and it is also extremely difficult to get into. So I feel like I fall in between the two of you, which is where I I sort of grew to appreciate it. But I also, first sort of experience, it it put me off.

这很难入门。但我能理解为什么许多孩子会觉得这不适合我。Chet GPT，请总结一下《尤利乌斯·凯撒》的情节。我对书单上的其他一些书很好奇，想问问你们是否记得在课堂上读过。比如约翰·斯坦贝克的《人鼠之间》。

It is hard to get into. But I can understand why many kids be like, this is not for me. Chet GPT, please summarize the plots of Julius Caesar. I'm curious about some of the other books on this list and whether or not either of you recall reading them in class. You know, John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, for example.

我记得你读过《愤怒的葡萄》，但我觉得《人鼠之间》是如此常见，当你提到乔治和莱尼时，人们都能明白这个典故。

You have I remember reading Grapes of Wrath, but I feel like Of Mice and Men is one that is so commonly read that when you talk about George and Lenny, people get the reference.

我记得读过《人鼠之间》，而且很喜欢。实际上，斯坦贝克至今仍是我最喜爱的作家之一。《愤怒的葡萄》、《伊甸园之东》。

I remember reading Of Mice and Men, and I liked it. In fact, you know, Steinbeck is still one of my favorite writers. Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。我认为阅读和写作让我热爱的一点，就是能与作者产生共鸣——你仿佛进入了作者的思维，欣赏他的机智和对生活的见解。如果只关注情节，这种感受就会减弱。这也是我对莎士比亚作品感到困扰的地方，因为语言太过古老，我们很难与他这个人产生联系。

Yeah. I I just think they one of the things I love about writing reading as well, I mean, is the connection I feel with the author that you're getting inside this author's mind. You're appreciating his wit and his outlook on life. And I feel that's lost a little bit if you're just focusing on the plot. I think that's what also bothers me about Shakespeare, for example, is it's so hard to relate to him as a person because the language is so foreign to us that you lose that.

现在只剩下情节了。

Now now it's just about the plot.

萨迪，你对这些书也有同感吗？我是说，那时候我们有CliffsNotes，没有维基百科。但你会不会觉得可以通过说‘哦我知道那本书讲什么’来糊弄课堂？

Sadie, did you feel that way about some of these books here? I mean, there is you know, we had CliffsNotes then. We didn't have Wikipedia. Right? But you feel like there was a way to cheat class by saying, oh, I know what that book is about.

但实际上，老师会努力让你去思考主题和语言。

But really, your teachers try to get you to engage with the themes and the language.

当然。CliffsNotes按今天的标准来看其实挺费时费力的——你还是得读摘要和解析。我记得大学时确实这么干过一次，不太光彩地说，是用在《皮袜子故事集》上。不知为什么，我就是不想读或没时间。

Of course. The the thing about CliffsNotes is they, by today's standards, actually took quite a bit of time and effort. Like, you still had to read the summaries and the because I remember I I did it once actually in college. I'm not proud to say with the leather stocking tales, which I I just I don't know. What for whatever reason, I I didn't wanna do it or hadn't made the time.

所以我试着看CliffsNotes，结果根本没省多少时间。但那些黄黑相间的封面让它们看起来充满禁忌诱惑，老师肯定能认出来。我确实读过《人鼠之间》，那本书几乎让我感到心理创伤，至今记得。

So I tried to read Eclipse notes, and it really wasn't that much of a of a time saver. But they made them look so enticingly forbidden with those yellow and black covers. I guess the teachers could could see them. I do remember reading Of Mice and Men, and it made I found it almost traumatic. I remember that.

我记得那时我们才大一，但之后我就再没真正读过斯坦贝克的作品。我们读了《愤怒的葡萄》和《珍珠》，它们让我感到极度不安，以至于我再也没重读过。我认为任何强烈的情感体验都不是坏事。尤其是《愤怒的葡萄》，它读起来很顺畅。我记得这是班上每个人都投入其中的少数书籍之一，这种情况并不常见。

I think we were only freshmen, but I have not really read Steinbeck since. We read that and The Pearl, and I found them so incredibly upsetting that that I have never read them again. And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing. And that one in particular was was easy to read. And and I remember it was one of the books that everyone in the class kinda got involved with, which wasn't by any means always the case.

这让我想起《永别了，武器》，这本书在我们大一英语课上反响特别冷淡。

And I'm thinking here of a farewell to arms, which which was a particular dud in my freshman English class.

说到这里，我们稍作休息。回来后，我想更具体地聊聊我们学生时代喜爱或不太喜欢的书籍。

On that note, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more specifically about the books we loved and maybe the ones we didn't love so much when we were in school.

在《纽约时报烹饪》，我们相信您不必每次想做美食都跑去杂货店。我是梅丽莎·克拉克，我的万能单碗玉米粉磅蛋糕食谱是一款温馨的条状蛋糕，用您手边现有的材料，不到一小时就能新鲜出炉。切片烤热涂上黄油，它几乎就是面包，让您理直气壮地把蛋糕当早餐。在nytcooking.com上，您能找到许多这样简单灵活的 pantry食谱。《纽约时报烹饪》为您提供适合各种场合的食谱、建议与灵感。

At New York Times Cooking, we believe that you shouldn't have to run to the grocery store every time you wanna make something delicious. I'm Melissa Clark, and my recipe for the most adaptable one bowl cornmeal pound cake is a comforting loaf cake that you can have fresh out of the oven in under an hour using ingredients you probably already have on hand. And sliced, toasted, and buttered, it's practically a bread, so it gives you a pass to eat cake for breakfast. You can find so many easy, flexible pantry recipes like this one at nytcooking.com. NYT Cooking has you covered with recipes, advice, and inspiration for any occasion.

那么萨迪，学生时代有没有哪本书让你至今记忆犹新、特别喜爱？

So, Sadie, was there a book that you read in school that you just remember really, really loving?

七年级时我们读了《麦田里的守望者》，我完全爱上了它。你提到的《九故事》我们后来也读了，那又是直击心灵的作品——尤其是《笑面人》。当然还有《香蕉鱼的好日子》，塞林格的每篇都...

Oh, seventh grade, we read Catcher in the Rye, and I absolutely loved it. I mean, you mentioned nine stories. We read that later on. And that was another gut punch, the laughing man in particular. And I mean, banana fish, as may every single one of this.

说说《麦田里的守望者》吧。为什么？因为我觉得它算是典型的高中读物。我记得高中时读它产生了强烈共鸣。

Tell me about Catcher in the Rye. Why? Because I feel like that is sort of a prototypical high school text. I don't know. I remember reading it when I was in high school, and it was one that resonated.

但如今作为成年人讨论时，我发现很多人对它不屑一顾。为什么当年它会触动你呢？

And then now if you try to talk about it as an adult, I feel like there are many people that look down upon it. But why why did it sort of resonate with you at the time?

说实话，我并不喜欢塞林格的所有作品。但《麦田》确实经得起时间考验，把它视为幼稚或矫情之作实在有失公允——要知道作者是经历过战争的成年男性，他精准捕捉了青少年疏离感的本质。课堂上我们还做了个巧妙设计：每人拿着纽约地图追踪主人公的足迹，这种沉浸式体验很有趣。

I think I think it's it's I don't love all of Salinger's work, is the truth. But Catherine the Rye, I think, really holds up, and I think it it does the book a real disservice to to to treat it as something kind of immature or Zhijin because, you know, he was an adult man, a war veteran writing this book, and he managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager. And when we read it in class, we also did kind of a nifty thing where we were each given maps of New York City, and we would trace his path around, which made it really immersive and fun.

刘易斯，你上学时读过《麦田里的守望者》吗？

Lewis, did you read Catcher in the Rye in in school?

再说一次，我不确定它是否被列为课堂读物。可能内容太具争议性了。但没错，这是我最爱的书之一，连同《九故事》以及塞林格的全部作品，实际上正是他和库尔特·冯内古特让我立志成为作家。他那种毫不做作的风格，当你读J.D.

Again, I don't know that it was assigned in a classroom. It might have been too controversial. But, yeah, it's it's one of my favorite books, and that along with nine stories and all of Salinger's work actually is why I became a writer, him and Kurt Vonnegut. How unpretentious he was and how when you read J. D.

塞林格时，你能真切感受到他的存在

Salinger, you have a sense of who he is

嗯。

Mhmm.

以及他观察世界的独特视角。那种既引人共鸣又幽默犀利的笔触，正是我在自己作品中努力效仿的。

And the way he sees the saw the world. And it was very relatable and funny and poignant, and that's what I try to emulate with my books.

吉尔伯特，你高中时期特别钟爱哪些书？

Gilbert, what what were the books that you loved in high school?

其实很多书我都不喜欢，但有一本例外。说来惭愧，这是最俗套的选择——菲茨杰拉德的《了不起的盖茨比》，我可能读得比任何书都多。好在它篇幅不长。高中初读时那个版本我至今记得，就是斯克里布纳出版社那版平装本，封面...

I there was a lot that I didn't love, but there was one book in particular that I loved. It is the most basic book, and I apologize for admitting it. The book was The Great Gatsby by Fitzgerald, which I have read possibly more than any other book. It helps that it's pretty short. I first read it in high school, and I remember the edition, the Scribner, you know, sort of trade paperback edition with those

蓝白相间的那版？

The blue and white one?

对，蓝白封面，但保留了原版封面上那双眼睛的设计，我一下子就爱上了。

The blue and white one, and then but then it had the eyes on the cover of the original edition, and I just I fell in love with it.

喜欢《盖茨比》有什么好难为情的？它明明那么出色。说真的，那些批评者最近十年重读过吗？电影改编可不算数——在我看来这小说根本没法影视化，可能因为文字本身太美了。

I don't why would you ever be embarrassed about loving The Great Gatsby, which is so good? Like, if you if you actually reread it, I would say anyone who who is critical of that, have they reread it in the last ten years? And the movies don't count because it is unadaptable, in my opinion. I think it's because the language is too is too beautiful. I don't know.

不过确实，这本书深深打动过我。

But, yeah, that one touched me a lot.

到那时为止，我已经读过很多书，但我从未意识到自己会读到一本如此美丽的书。它的文字美得令人心醉。虽然我读过情节更精彩的书，但菲茨杰拉德那种被某些人认为过于感伤的抒情笔调，我却并不认同。我当时就想，原来写作还可以这样。一本书可以拥有令人难忘的角色、难忘的场景，还有让年轻人为之倾倒的段落。

I I had read so many books up to that point, but I didn't know that I'd read a book that was just beautiful. It was just beautifully written. I definitely read books with better plots, but the lyricism of Fitzgerald, which some people would say is an over sentimentality, I would not. I was just like, oh, this is how you can write as well. You can write a book that has memorable characters, a memorable setting, and also has passages that make you swoon as a young person.

这就是我对那本书的感受，而且至今仍这么认为。

That's how I felt about that book, and I continue to think

那本书经得起时间考验。

That book holds up.

它太美了。我觉得被迫——或许‘被迫’这个词不太恰当，这太负面了——在学校被要求读书的好处之一就在于此。有时你会爱上一本书，即使其中有很多内容无法引起共鸣，或者让你想保持距离。

It's gorgeous. That's one of the things I think that being forced to maybe forced is not the right word. That's so negative. Being made to read books in school can do. Sometimes you fall in love with a book, even if there are a ton of other things that you that don't resonate with you or that you sort of hold at an arm's distance.

我也很想聊聊这类书。刘易斯，你学生时代有没有哪本书让你读得特别吃力？

And I would love to talk about some of those books as well. Lewis, is there a book that sticks out in your mind as one that you really struggled with in school?

我记得不喜欢的一本书是《喧哗与骚动》。

One of the books I remembered not liking was sound the sound and the fury

威廉·福克纳写的——我现在正指着屏幕。请谈谈福克纳吧。

by William I'm pointing at my screen right now. Please talk about Faulkner. So,

你知道，现在作为成年人且阅读量大了之后，我想在播客录制前试着重读《喧哗与骚动》。天哪，那阅读难度真大。开头大概60页是由一个智力障碍者的视角写的，你只能模糊感觉到角色们是谁，但不确定。我记得有两个叫昆汀的角色，一男一女。

you know, now that I'm an adult and well read, I thought, well, maybe I'll try you know, prior to the podcast, I'm gonna try to read sound and the the sound and the fury again. And boy, that is very difficult reading. It's the first, like, I don't know, 60 pages are written by someone who is mentally challenged. And you just have this vague sense of who all the characters are, but you're not sure. I think there's two people named Quentin, one female, one male.

中间某个角色的名字还从莫里斯改成了本杰明。在完全搞不清状况的情况下读这么多内容太难了。我刚读完那部分，目前就进展到这里。但我不明白，如果目的是激发人们的阅读兴趣和了解作家，为什么会指定这本书。

And the character's name somewhere in the middle has changed from Maurice to Benjamin. It's a lot to read without knowing what's going on. So I've just finished that part. That's as far as I got, but I can't understand why that would be if you're trying to get people to turn them on to reading and to authors, I I don't understand why they'd ever assign that book.

萨迪，你学生时代喜欢福克纳的作品吗？

Sadie, were you at all into Faulkner in school?

说实话，我高中时读福克纳的经历让我有点反感。我是说，我在大学里坚持了下来，唯一能读下去的方式就是参加大学研讨会，在那里内容被拆解得非常易懂。单靠我自己根本做不到。

I actually was kinda put off by my high school experiences with Faulkner. I mean, I I persevered in college, and the only way I got through it was by taking college seminars where, you know, it was really broken down for us and done in very digestible chunks. I couldn't have done it alone.

我也有类似的福克纳经历。高中英语课上被迫读《我弥留之际》，完全不知道在讲什么，可能这辈子都不想再碰这位作家的书了。那会儿我还没准备好理解或欣赏这类作品，和《了不起的盖茨比》形成鲜明对比。

I have a similar Faulkner experience. Been made to read it in a high school English class as I lay dying as well. And just I was like, I I have no idea what's happening, and it's possible that I'd never want to read this gentleman again. I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it. Sort of the opposite of The Great Gatsby.

像《麦田里的守望者》这种书，我们那个年纪就很容易接受和理解。但福克纳可能不适合高中生阅读。

Like, I or others were primed at that age or The Catcher in the Rye to receive and understand this book. Faulkner maybe is not the guy for high school.

其实有很多引人入胜的故事和作家适合高中生。比如我们高中读陀思妥耶夫斯基的《白痴》，虽然是艰深的俄国文学，但我记得当时非常着迷。后来我又读了他很多书，就像读完《人鼠之间》或《煎饼坪》后迷上斯坦贝克那样。但就像你说的，福克纳彻底浇灭了我的阅读兴趣。

But there are so many engaging stories and so many authors that I think if it was taught in high school that students would relate to. Like we read The Idiot in High School by Dostoevsky, which is this difficult Russian literature, but I just remember loving it. It was engaging and gripping, and I've since gone on and read lots of books by Dostoevsky just like I've read lots of books by Steinbeck after reading probably the mice and men or maybe tortilla flats. But with like you said, with Faulkner, it just turns off turned off any interest I had in reading.

哦，我想到个相反的例子。记得高中时我们读托妮·莫里森的《宠儿》，那是本很棒的高中读物，当时我们大概十一年级。

Oh, I thought of kind of an opposite situation. I remember reading. We read quite a bit of it was Beloved that we first read in high school, Toni Morrison. And that was such a good high school book. I think we were juniors.

我们年纪不算太小，虽然涉及成人主题，但读起来令人振奋。不过我弟弟总觉得听书比看书容易，尤其是长篇。所以我们还有《所罗门之歌》的有声书，效果特别好。通过这次讨论我意识到，应该让更多有声书进入教学体系，方便那些阅读困难的学生。

And we weren't too young. It was it was adult themes, but it was it was electrifying to read. But my brother always found it a lot easier to to listen to books than to read them, especially long ones. And so we also had the audiobook of, I think, Song of Solomon in his case, and that was fantastic. I think one thing I'm coming around to in this conversation is that more audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for for people who find that easier.

对某些书来说，有声书可能是更好的选择。我常想起我弟弟，他本来不爱读书，只记得他认真读过夏洛特黄蜂队时期穆格西·博格斯的自传《巨人国的矮子》，还有马特·克里斯托弗的棒球小说。

Or and I think for certain books, it might be the way to go. I thought about my brother a lot in in this context because he wasn't someone who really liked to read. I only remember him really reading the Muggsy Bogues memoir in the land of giants from his Charlotte Hornet sera. He also liked Matt Christopher baseball books, which I'd read

说到自传，那些我也读过。

for my memoir. I read those.

是啊。让不爱读书的孩子接触他们兴趣相关的读物很棒。只要能让他们发现热爱的领域里还有更多秘闻和独特体验，就是成功的。当然，有声书绝对是个好选择。

Yeah. I think I think getting kids who don't think they like to read to read things that are adjacent to their interests. I think it's great. I think whatever shows you that there's additional lore and secret knowledge and a different kind of experience of something you love is is terrific. But, yeah, audiobooks, definitely.

完全同意。对我来说听书和看书效果一样。不过有趣的是，我从来不听自己作品的有声版，因为朗读者对每个句子的处理都和我写作时的构想有微妙差异，听着总让我出戏。

Yeah. I I agree. I mean, to me, whether I listen to it or read it, it's the same it engages in the same way to me. Although it's funny because I can never listen to the audio readings of my books because every sentence is accentuated just a little differently than the way I had in mind when I wrote it. And so it's constantly jarring me when I'm listening to my audiobooks.

那么你有没有完整听完过自己作品的某部有声书？

So have you ever gotten through a full audiobook of one of your own works?

没有。我甚至从未...我是说，有些...

No. I've never even got I mean, there are some that

抱歉...所有刘易斯·萨克作品的有声书朗读者。

are Sorry sorry narrators of all Lewis Sacker books.

人们总告诉我他们喜欢有声版本。所以这，你知道，只是我个人的怪癖。

And people tell me they love the audio version. So it's, you know, it's just my own idiosyncrasy.

这里稍微离题一下，只为强调萨迪你说的观点——有声书的重要性。对许多读者而言，有声书是他们生活中重要组成部分，却仍带着些微污名。仿佛用耳朵听书就不算真正阅读。我认为任何能激发文学思维的方式，无论是用眼睛读还是用耳朵听，都是有效的。有声书很棒，我就经常听。

Brief digression here just to, underscore, Sadie, what you said, which is the importance and of of audiobooks, which I feel like is something that for many readers is a big part of their lives and still continues to have a bit of a stigma to it. You know, if you're listening to a book, you're not really reading it. I think I think you agree. Anything that engages the literary mind, whether you're reading with your eyes or listening with your ears is valid, and so audiobooks are great. I listen to them all the time.

关于你更宏观的观点，你谈到的其实是每位终身读者都会经历的拉扯——在学校或父母强制要求阅读的书目，与你最终真正热爱的书籍之间的张力。有时两者能和谐共存，有时则相互对立。最可怕的是，如果被迫读太多不喜欢的书，可能会彻底扼杀你的阅读兴趣。

I do think to your bigger point, the thing that you're talking about is this, push pull that every lifelong reader experiences, right, which is between what they are told to read, what they are made to read, what they are forced to read, whether it's in school or by your parents, and what you actually end up loving, and how sometimes those things work together, and sometimes those two things can be in opposition. Right? The scariest thing is the idea that if you are made to read too many books that you don't like, you will just it will turn you off from reading altogether.

是完成了任务清单——后来发现这些作品若缺失会是我阅读履历的明显空白。成年后我绝不会有自律去主动接触福克纳或乔伊斯。学校强制学习有其价值，就像我现在不会自发去学数学。

This is a kind of thing that as a kid, you're never going to feel or believe, and you'd hate hearing. But I'm so glad to have I won't say crossed off my list, to have read certain books in school, been forced to read them, which I then didn't feel were were glaring omissions in in my reading list later. I I just wouldn't have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce or as an adult. I think there is a lot to be said for being made to do things in school. Like, I'm not doing math on my own.

但我庆幸曾被逼着学过。

I'm glad I was forced to learn it.

是的。阅读极大地丰富了我的人生，因此传承这份价值很重要。我写作的部分意义就是——特别是为年轻人创作时——试图激发他们的阅读兴趣，展现阅读可以充满乐趣、引人入胜又发人深省。虽然影响力有限，但我们应该尽可能让更多人明白：阅读值得坚持。

Yeah. I think I think reading has enriched my life tremendously. And so I think it's important to try to pass that along. That's partly what I do with my writing is just try to especially when I write for young people is to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought provoking and all that. You know, you can only do so much, but I think you wanna try to reach as many people as you can and and say, yeah, reading is worth doing.

刘易斯，你刚结束新书《虎堡魔术师》的巡回宣传，想必遇到不少成年书迷向你倾诉他们年少时阅读你作品的经历吧？

Lewis, you're just back from a tour for your new book, The Magician of Tiger Castle, and I have to imagine that you've had a lot of fans, a lot of adult fans talking to you about reading your books when they were young.

是的。我刚刚带着新书完成了一次巡回签售回来，最让我感到温暖的是，许多成年人告诉我，是我的书让他们开始爱上阅读。现在他们正把这些书读给自己的孩子或学生听，听到他们谈论这些书对他们的意义，真的让我感到受宠若惊。

Yeah. I've I've I've just come back from a book tour with the new book, and one of the things that's been really heartwarming about it was I've heard from from many adults who told me that mine were the books that got them to start reading. And and now they're reading those same books to their kids or to their students, and it it's been just to hear them talk about what the books meant to them is is humbling.

我特别记得喜欢《歪歪路小学》的一点是它是个系列。我觉得孩子们都喜欢系列书，它们有种沉浸感和推动力，这是单本书不一定具备的。它能营造一种社区感，制造期待感。那些以为自己不爱读书的孩子...

One thing I remember really loving about Wayside in particular was that it was a series. And I think kids love a series, and I think it's immersive and propulsive in in a way that standalone books aren't always. I think it it creates a sense of community. I think it creates a sense of anticipation. Kids who think they don't like to read.

我认为系列书有时是个好方法。我自己的小儿子恰好是个爱读书的孩子，但他真的迷上了这些书，比如《狗男人》。

I think series are sometimes a a good device. My own little boy happens to be a reader, but he got really into these books, you know, Dog Man.

嗯。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

我看到同样的情况正在发生。每次我们去书店，他都会躲到角落里，如饥似渴地阅读能拿到的所有《狗男人》。现在这些书对他来说就像奖励，这确实很有意义。

And I see the same thing is happening. Every time we're in a bookstore, he's kind of going into a corner and, like, mainlining as much Dog Man as he can get in. And now they're considered a treat to him, and so there's something to be said for that too.

我同意。系列书在很多方面都是入门读物。比如我孩子从没读过《狗男人》或《小屁孩日记》这些超级畅销书，但他迷上了《天才神秘会社》和《地球最后的孩子》——那些带插图的末日僵尸题材青少年读物，虽然不算图像小说。

I agree. I think series books are sort of an entry point, you know, in many ways. Like, used my kid never read the Dog Man books. He never read the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books, which are also incredibly popular, but he was into the Mysterious Benedict Society books. He is into the Last Kids on Earth books, which are sort of this these sort of post apocalyptic zombie young reader books that also have images in them, although they're not graphic novels.

他还特别着迷《德斯蒙德·科尔的幽灵巡逻队》系列。所以正如你所说，萨迪，这种期待感确实能帮助孩子。他们想有所期待，无论是下一部漫威电影还是《波西·杰克逊》新书。

Desmond Cole ghost patrol is a series that he was also super into. So so I think that idea, as you say, Sadie, of anticipation is something that that helps kids. You know, they want something to look forward to. They want to look forward to the next Marvel movie. They also wanna look forward to the Percy Jackson book, you know.

在开始推荐前我很好奇——不是要讨论沉重话题——但几周前有报告显示美国休闲阅读率跌至惊人低谷。现在只有约16%的美国人每年会为乐趣阅读（包括书籍杂志等）。这个数据让我既意外又不意外，既沮丧又觉得这可能是我们国家的现状。

I'm very curious before we get into some recommendations not to go super dark, but there was just another report released a few weeks ago that talked about how pleasure reading in America has dropped to just a frightening low over the past many decades. So something like only 16% of Americans, you know, now read for pleasure over the course of any given year. That's a combination of, you know, books, magazines, etcetera. I was both surprised and not surprised. I was both depressed, and also I took it as a given that that's maybe where we were in this country at this point.

我想知道你们是否有相似或不同的感受。

I I wonder if either of you had similar or different reactions.

是的。这又回到我一直强调的：在学校里，你要给孩子们能产生共鸣的书——当然因人而异——让他们意识到'与作者产生联结、进入这个世界是如此特别'。我认为坚持这一点很重要。

Yeah. Again, that goes to what I've been saying that, you know, in school, you just you give them books that they can see the the and it's different for different people, obviously, books that you relate to and realize, oh, this is really special to to connect with this writer and be a part of this world. You know, I think that's I think that's important that we continue to do that.

我确实觉得，一旦你找到那个入口，就再也回不去了。我认为孩子们阅读很重要，因为这向他们展示阅读是触手可及且充满乐趣的。某些系列书那种令人上瘾的特质——可能篇幅出奇地短、显得非常商业化，像是流水线生产的而非深思熟虑的作家所写——但我并不认同‘罪恶快感’这种说法。我觉得越是能消除那些被污名化的东西（如你所说），就越好。阅读本身就是好事。

I do feel like when you find that gateway, there's sort of no going back. I think if kids are reading, that's important because it shows them that it's accessible and fun. I think the kind of addictive, la boo boo quality of certain series, which maybe are, like, weirdly short and seem very commercialized and seem to be kind of cranked out by by factories rather than thoughtful writers. I don't believe in guilty pleasures, and I think the more we can we can we can remove certain things that that, as you say, have have stigmas around them, the better. I think reading period is good.

我知道这并不总是可行，但如果孩子们能看到你阅读实体书，如果这种行为在他们周围变得常态化，我认为这很重要。

I know it's not always possible, but I think if they can see you reading physical books, I think if that is normalized around them, I think that's important.

还有被朗读的经历。我认为被朗读是最重要的事。

And also being read to. Being read to, I think, is the most important thing.

而且说实话，这对父母和看护人也有好处。我们每晚都会大声朗读。我这辈子第一次在读关于动物的书——虽然不是我主动选择的，但你知道吗？我学到了很多。

And, you know, it's good it's good for parents and caretakers too, quite frankly. We we read aloud every night. I am reading books about animals for the first time in my life. It's not what I would choose, but you know what? I'm learning a lot.

我对恐龙的了解比以往任何时候都多。我终于开始欣赏《夏洛的网》和《天鹅的喇叭》了。我是说，我们都能从这个过程中有所收获。

I know so much more about dinosaurs than I ever did. I've come to finally appreciate Charlotte's Web, Trumpet of the Swan. I mean so we all can learn from this process.

萨迪，我很喜欢这个想法——最终是你的孩子让你开始读关于马的书。

I love the idea, Sadie, that it's going to be your child that finally gets you into horse books.

别别引诱命运。

Don't don't tempt fate.

好吧，那我们别谈黑暗转向光明吧。我想请你们每人推荐一两本书，要找那些值得年轻读者花时间阅读、能真正产生共鸣的作品。刘易斯？

Okay. Well, let's move away from the dark towards the light. I'd love to ask each of you for one or two book recommendations. I'm looking for books that you think would be worth the young reader's time, something that they'd really connect to. Lewis?

我要先说明，我女儿已经38岁了。我以前常以访问作者身份去学校，但差不多二十年没这么做了。所以我熟悉的都是二三十年前甚至四十年前的作家。我特别喜欢写过《记忆传授人》的洛伊丝·劳里，还有凯瑟琳·佩特森的《通往特雷比西亚的桥》。

I should preface this by saying my own daughter is 38. I used to go to do a lot of school visits as a visiting author, but I haven't done that for like twenty years. So the authors I know are the ones who wrote between twenty and thirty or forty years ago. The ones I really liked were Lois Lowry who did The Giver and Catherine Paterson, Bridge to Terabithia. Bridge

《通往特雷比西亚的桥》。

to Terabithia.

还有，《了不起的吉莉·霍普金斯》。这两本书都让我非常感动。

And also, The Great Gilly Hopkins. Both those books I found very moving.

《了不起的吉莉·霍普金斯》，真高兴你提到它。我觉得这本书被提及得不够多，但对我来说它同样意义非凡。对于不了解的人，这本书讲述的是一个身处寄养系统的女孩，她并非传统意义上的可爱女主角，但涉及成人主题、疏离感以及某些社会议题。虽然我最近没重读，但你可以告诉我它是否过时了。我记得——用‘爱’这个词可能不太准确，因为某种程度上它是个沉重的故事——但大约十岁时读它，觉得冲击力惊人。

Great Gilly Hopkins. I'm so glad you mentioned it. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough, but that is was a form of the book for me too. And for those who don't know, it's about a girl who's in the foster care system and isn't necessarily an immediately likable heroine, but it deals with adult themes and themes of alienation and and certain social things, which I haven't read it lately, but you can tell me if it's dated. But I remember loving is the wrong word because it it was in some ways a hard read, but finding it incredibly impactful at about 10.

好的。那么，萨迪，你有什么推荐？

Okay. So, Sadie, what are your recommendations?

天啊，从哪儿说起呢？有《红色羊齿草的故乡》《通往特拉比西亚的桥》《黑鸟湖畔的女巫》《发声者》《数星星》《斯帕尔小姐的混乱档案》、弗兰克·怀勒、珍妮弗·哈克尼、《麦克白》、威利·麦金利和米娅·伊丽莎白。但如果非要选一本，那必须是阿尔文·施瓦茨的《黑暗中的恐怖故事》，我知道吉尔伯特小时候也喜欢这本书。它篇幅短小，阴森诡异。

I mean, where to begin? You've got Where the Red Fern Grows, Bread Chaterabithia, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder, Number the Stars, Mixup Files of Miss Spasley, Frank Wyler, Jennifer Hackney, Macbeth, Willie McKinley, and Mia Elizabeth. But if I had to give it to one, it has got to be scary stories to tell in the dark by Alvin Schwartz, which is a book I know Gilbert also enjoyed as a child. I think it is short format. It's spooky.

很有趣。如果你对超自然事物感兴趣——而且现在正逢这个季节——没有比这更合适的了。你会和鬼魂成为终身挚友。

It's fun. If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we're entering that time of year, Nothing better. And you will have made in ghosts a friend for life.

我显然不能再更爱这个推荐了，萨迪。小时候这本书把我吓得半死，尤其是那些插画。我甚至不确定现在版本是否还用那些插图——它们恐怖到这种程度。我爱死它们了。

I obviously could not love this recommendation more, Sadie. This book scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, particularly the illustrations. I don't even know if they use the illustrations anymore. That's how scary they were. I love them.

我想补充一本前几年和儿子共读的书，我们都非常喜欢。另一部经典——诺顿·贾斯特的《神奇的收费亭》。我提起它是因为我之前从未读过，童年时没人读给我听，自己也没接触过。

I wanna throw in the mix a book that I read with my son a couple of years ago in which we both loved. It's another classic. This is The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster. And the reason I bring this up is because I had never read it before. It was not read to me when I was a child, and it was not one that I had read on my own.

它实在太巧妙了，文字游戏令人捧腹。朱尔斯·费弗的插画，我认为是真正配得上‘标志性’这个词的——不像现在人们动不动就滥用这个词。我等不及要重读它，实际上想再读给长大些的儿子听，因为它就是这么令人愉悦。《神奇的收费亭》。

And it is so clever, And the wordplay is incredibly amusing. The illustrations by Jules Pfeiffer are, I think, iconic in the right use of that word, not in the way that everyone seems to use it these days, which is incorrectly. I I I can't wait to read it again, and I would actually like to read it my son who's a little bit older again because it was such a delightful one. So the Phantom Tollbooth.

我也超爱《神奇的收费亭》。

I love the Phantom Tollbooth as well.

你小时候读过吗？

Did you read it when you were he

我高中时读过这本书。

I read it in high school.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

他还有一本非常有趣的书叫《点与线》，这是一本图画书，讲述一条直线爱上了一个点，而点最终却爱上了一条曲线。故事主要讲直线能比曲线完成更多事情，它开始创造出各种复杂的几何图形，而曲线只能扭来扭去。

And he has another book that's very fun called just called the dot and the line, and it's just this picture book about a it's it's about a line being in love with a dot, and the dot ends up falling for a squiggle. And it's all about, you know, how the line can do so much more than a squiggle, and it does start seeing all these elaborate geometric shapes where all the squiggle could do is squiggle.

我从没听说过这本，我要赶紧回家找来读读。

I've never heard of that one, and I'm gonna rush home and and pick that one up.

我也是。

Me too.

我想再推荐一本书，呼应你之前推荐的《黑暗中的恐怖故事》。这是给稍大些孩子看的，是凯瑟琳·阿登写的系列小说，第一本叫《小空间》。主角是个11岁女孩，名叫奥莉。

I would love to mention one more book just to sort of echo your early recommendations of scary stories to tell in the dark. This is for kids that are slightly older. It is a series written by Katherine Arden that begins with a book called Small Spaces. It stars an 11 year old girl. Her name is Ollie.

她结交了一群朋友，在四本书里他们都要面对各种恐怖事物，有些非常吓人。第一本里有个角色叫'微笑先生'，我觉得光说这个名字你就知道孩子是否适合读这类书了。我儿子现在11岁，他9岁左右就读过这些，还反复读了好几遍，书写得确实很好。

She develops a group of friends, and they have to deal with creepy stuff over four books, some very creepy stuff. In the first one, there's a character named the quote smiling man, which I feel like that's all I have to say, and you'll know whether or not your child is prepared to read a book like that. Mine, who is again now 11, read these when he was nine or so, but he really sort of he's read them several times, and they're quite well written.

看来我有这么多可以期待的。我也在考虑开学季的好书推荐，我们正要上幼儿园，刚给他读了《捣蛋鬼拉蒙娜》，他超喜欢。这本书太棒了，如果你很久没重读的话——作者完美捕捉了小孩的心理，拉蒙娜被误解时的痛苦描写得既细腻又极其搞笑。

I mean, I have all this to look forward to. I was thinking about good back to school books too, and we're starting kindergarten, so we just read Ramona the Pest to him, and he loved it. And that book is so good. If you haven't read that one specifically in a long time, the way she gets in a small child's head and the pain Ramona feels at being misunderstood is is so well done, so sensitively, and it's so incredibly funny.

这是贝芙莉·克莱瑞写的拉蒙娜系列中的一本。

That's one of the Ramona books by Beverly Cleary.

贝芙莉·克莱瑞写的。对。另一个开学季推荐是《尼尔森老师不见了》，配有詹姆斯·马歇尔的经典插画，作者是哈利·阿拉德。这本书让学校看起来充满趣味、神秘和魔法奇遇，特别适合低龄儿童。强烈推荐。

By Beverly Cleary. Yeah. And another good back to school pick is miss Nelson is Missing with the iconic James Marshall illustrations. It's by Harry Allard and just makes school seem kind of fun and mysterious and and prone to magical happenings even for very young children. So recommended.

我就知道你会再偷偷加一个。干得好，萨迪。好了，我们再来个短暂休息。回来后，我们要玩个小游戏，涉及一些经典书籍和一些真的不喜欢这些经典书籍的人。

I knew you're gonna sneak in one more. Good one, Sadie. Okay. Let's take another quick break. And when we get back, we're gonna play a little game involving some classic books and some people who really don't like those classic books.

我们马上回来。我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。这里是周日特辑，我和萨迪·斯坦以及作家路易斯·萨赫尔一起，我们要聊聊返校话题。我们会讨论初中、高中时喜爱的书籍，还有童年读物，之前已经推荐了一些书，现在要为嘉宾准备一个游戏。我面前有一些亚马逊真实读者提交的评论，针对你们可能在高中读过的经典书籍。

We'll be right back. I'm Gilbert Cruz. This is the Sunday special, I'm here with Sadie Stein and author Louis Sacher, and we are talking back to school. We're talking what books we loved in middle school and high school and as kids, we had some book recommendations and now we have a game for our guests. Here in front of me, I've got some reviews that have been submitted by real actual readers on Amazon of some classic books that you may have read in high school.

我先从路易斯开始。我会读一条评论，你来猜是哪本书，猜对了得一分。如果猜错了，我会给萨迪读同一本书的另一条评论，让她有机会猜。这样轮流进行，得分最高者将赢得奖品。

I'm going to start with Louis. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read a review. You're going to try to guess the book, and if you get it right, you get a point. If you get it wrong, I will go to Sadie with another review of that same book and she'll have a chance to guess. We'll go back and forth like that and the most points wins a prize.

这些书你们都熟悉，很可能在高中时读过。好了，开始吧。路易斯，从你开始。

These are all books that both of you know. These are books you most likely read in high school. Alright. Let's play. Lewis, I'm going to start with you.

我要读一条评论，然后你猜是哪本书。这本书被几代美国高中生评为所谓的‘伟大的美国小说’。我认为这是因为这本书 mercifully short（幸好很短），可以快速读完，还能剩下很多时间练橄榄球。路易斯，你觉得这可能是哪本书？

I'm gonna read a review and then you guess what the book is. This book has been rated by generations of American high school students as quote, the great American novel. I believe this is because the book is mercifully short, lending itself to a quick read with time left over for plenty of football practice. Lewis, what might this book be?

《人鼠之间》？

Of mice and men?

不是《人鼠之间》。萨迪，我给你读同一本书的另一条评论。这是一本关于二十年代的经典，看起来那是个悲伤的时代。

It's not of mice and men. Sadie, I'm gonna read you another review of this same book. This is a classic about the twenties, and it looks like it was a sad time.

我之前没觉得它这么短，但你刚才提到《了不起的盖茨比》篇幅不长。所以我猜是这本。

I hadn't thought of it this short, but you mentioned earlier that Great Gatsby is not too long. So I am going to go with that.

是的，是的。我错误地设定了标准。抱歉，路易斯。

It is. It is. I mistakenly seated the ground. I'm sorry, Lewis.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

萨迪，下一本书轮到你来点评了。这篇评论说：角色们和第一本书中一样可爱幽默，但常常像是他们自己的夸张漫画版。

Sadie, we're gonna go to you for the next book. This is the review. The characters were just as lovable and humorous as in the first book, but often it was like they were over the top caricatures of themselves.

好的。系列作品？经典？我第一反应是...

Okay. Series? Classic? I First thought.

第一反应往往就是最佳答案。

First thought. Best thought.

行吧。过。

Fine. Pass.

现在请刘易斯回答。故事始于两个离家出走者的公路旅行，很快演变成漫无目的且看似无止境的流浪。刘易斯，你觉得这可能是哪本书？

We're gonna get Lewis. It begins as a road trip with two runaways, which quickly devolves to aimless and seemingly endless wandering. Lewis, what might this book be?

噢天。我看得出萨迪知道答案。《哈克贝利·费恩历险记》？

Oh, boy. I I can tell Sadie knows it. Huckleberry Finn?

《哈克贝利·费恩历险记》，马克·吐温的作品。你们现在一比一平局。刘易斯，最后一章简直像《动物屋》那样交代了所有角色的结局——几乎每个人都莫名其妙地死了。哇哦。

Huckleberry Finn. Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. You're tied at one each. Lewis, literally, the last chapter just describes what happened to all the characters animal house style, and nearly every one of them randomly died. Wow.

多么绝妙的结尾啊。他肯定是让他的狗代笔写了最后一章。

What a deeply brilliant ending. He must have let his dog write the last chapter.

说到结局全员死亡的书...这可不是《哈姆雷特》。

And book where everyone dies at the end. It's not Hamlet.

确实不是《哈姆雷特》，虽然那部剧结尾也几乎团灭。现在请萨迪根据另一篇评论猜同一本书：后现代社会并不真正关心所谓的'孩子他爸'，这个在小说首尾揭示的真相，如今每天都在早间电视节目里重复上演（莫里秀既视感）。虽然这个引用有点过时——你觉得是哪本书呢萨迪？

It is not Hamlet, although almost everyone dies at the end of Hamlet. We're gonna go to Sadie with another review of the same book. Postmodern society does not really care about, quote, baby daddies and the revelation which is made at the end and beginning of this novel is reproduced daily on morning television a la Mori. It seems like an outdated reference. But what book might that be, Sadie?

揭露身世然后全员死亡？我能问问你当时能猜到吗？

Revelation of paternity and everyone dies? Can I ask would you have gotten it?

我猜不到，这对你有帮助吗？不，我本来也猜不到的

I would not how's that gonna help you? No. I would not have gotten

我在尝试理解你的思路。不过我们还是继续《永别了，武器》这个话题吧。

I'm trying to get in your head. But let's do the Farewell to Arms.

这不是《永别了武器》，萨迪。虽然那也是我高中必读的书。我们要回到刘易斯寻找第三条线索。它探讨了早期殖民时期美国的基督教价值观，并提倡'社会应集体审判罪恶'的观点——这完全没引起我的兴趣。

It is not a farewell to arms, Sadie. Although that is a book I also had to read in high school. We're going back to Lewis for the third clue. It addresses Christian values in early colonial America and promotes the idea that quote sins should be judged by society as a whole, which did not engage my attention.

我不知道。《萨勒姆的女巫》？

I don't know. The crucible?

就我所知是同一时期，非常接近。你们俩都没猜中。等等。

Same time period as far as I could tell, very close. Neither of you got it. Wait.

红字。是《红字》。

Scarlet letter. Scarlet letter.

《红字》。抱歉，但不——你错过了，萨迪。正确答案就是《红字》。

Scarlet letter. Sorry. But No. You missed out, Sadie. It is the scarlet letter.

所以你们仍各得一分。我要出下一题了。萨迪。好吧，我不明白这为什么算经典文学。

So you're still both tied at one. I'm gonna go to the next one. Sadie. Okay. I don't understand why this is classic literature.

它确实符合时代特征，但读起来相当压抑。我完全不喜欢那个结局。哦抱歉，这题确实很难，萨迪。好吧。

It is true to the time period, but pretty depressing to read. Did not like the ending at all. Oh, I'm sorry. This is a hard one, Sadie. Okay.

另一个时代里令人沮丧的是什么？

What's depressing set in another time?

老实说，听起来就像我们高中时经历的一切。

Honestly, it sounds like everything we had during high school.

是啊，对吧？我...我不知道。也许是《人鼠之间》。

Yeah. Right? I I don't know. Maybe Of Mice and Men.

天啊，你猜对了！就是《人鼠之间》。什么？因为卢...运气真好。

Oh my god. You got it. It's of mice and men. What? It's because Lou A lucky guess.

因为路易斯之前看过...好吧，不错

It's because Lewis had seen it earlier as a Alright, good

路易斯。我只能说，你看着书中的男孩成长为一个男人。

Lewis. The only thing I can say is you watched the boy grow through the book and become a man.

我只是想...

I'm just trying to

我完全没头绪。我们转到萨迪吧。这个故事本质上是个维多利亚时代的肥皂剧，充斥着身世成谜的父母、秘密阴谋、神秘的恩人，最糟的是还有许多不真实的角色。

I have no clue. Let's go over to Sadie. This story was essentially a Victorian soap opera. There's all sorts of unknown parents, secret conniving, mysterious benefactors, and worst of all, many unrealistic characters.

《大卫·科波菲尔》？哦！哦！哦！哦！

David Copperfield? Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

猜得好。猜得好。猜得好。

Good guess. Good guess. Good guess.

我知道。我知道。知道。知道。

I know. I know. Know. Know.

你猜怎么着？

You have what guess?

该死的。

Darn it.

你只有一次猜测机会，萨迪。第三条线索，刘易斯。谁会在乎一个家里摆着腐烂婚礼蛋糕的怪胎？谁会在乎一个对名字聒噪的小男孩产生异常强烈依恋的疯癫囚犯？好吧，我选择——

You have one guess, Sadie. Third clue, Lewis. Who cares about a freak that has a decomposing wedding cake in her house? Who cares about a maniacal convict who develops an unnaturally strong bond to a young boy with an obnoxious name? Well, I'll go with what

我从第一条线索就在想。《远大前程》。

I was thinking from the first one. Great Expectations.

《远大前程》。干得好，刘易斯。现在来到最后一条线索。好了萨迪，这篇书评说的是哪本书？这个角色从头到尾一团糟。

Great Expectations. Good job, Lewis. We're gonna come to our final clue here. Alright, Sadie, what book is this a review of? The character was a mess all around.

他对生活的看法极其不切实际，令人沮丧。我一直在等待某些事情发生，但什么也没发生。我不明白为什么连环杀手都钟情这本书。故事既无开头也无结尾。

He had a very unrealistic outlook on life and it was depressing. I kept waiting for something to happen and it didn't. I have no idea why serial killers are drawn to this book. It starts and ends nowhere.

我们最爱的《麦田里的守望者》？

Our favorite book Catcher in the Rye?

《麦田里的守望者》。你最喜欢的书，刘易斯最喜欢的书，我最喜欢的书《麦田里的守望者》。我觉得这是个完美的收官之作。萨迪，很高兴告诉你本轮你获胜了。萨迪，你赢得了实物奖品。

Catcher in the Rye. Your favorite book, Lewis' favorite book, my favorite book Catcher in the Rye. That is a good one to end on, I think. Sadie, I'm happy to tell you that you have won this round. Sadie, you have won something.

你赢得了一件实物奖品，上周的听众都知道我要颁发给你。我们将把这个奖品称为'吉尔比奖'。

You have won something physical, and listeners to last week episode know that I'm going to award you something. It is something that we are going to call the Gilby.

好的。我

Okay. I

这是个印着我脸的奖杯。不是我设计的。有点尴尬，但我们就这么用吧。

It's a trophy with my face on it. I did not design this. It's slightly embarrassing, but we're running with it.

很荣幸获得这个奖杯。我会珍藏它，并把它放在书架上显眼的位置。

I'm honored to have received this trophy. I will treasure it, and it will occupy a place of honor on my bookshelf.

萨迪·斯坦，《纽约时报书评》的同事编辑。感谢你的加入。

Sadie Stein, fellow editor at the New York Times Book Review. Thank you for joining.

谢谢邀请。那个游戏简直是噩梦。

Thank you for having me. That game was nightmarish.

刘易斯·萨克，多本儿童和青少年书籍的 beloved 作者。感谢你参加我们的周日特别节目。

Lewis Sacker, beloved author of many children's and young adult books. Thank you for joining us here on the Sunday special.

谢谢。很有趣。

Thanks. It's been fun.

在结束前，几周后，我将和几位同事聊聊时尚，关于我们选择穿什么以及为什么。我们想听听听众们的意见。你们有没有关于个人风格的迫切问题？我有。比如，订婚时穿短裤可以吗？

Before we go, in a couple of weeks, I'll be chatting with some of my colleagues about fashion, about what we choose to wear and why. And we wanna hear from you, our listeners. Do you have burning questions about personal style? I do. For example, is it okay to wear shorts while getting engaged?

我要说不。答案是不行。抱歉，特拉维斯·凯尔西。但你们可能有其他问题，比如裤子多宽松才算太宽松？或者这是我真实的问题，我想也是很多人共有的。

I'm going to say no. The answer is no. Sorry, Travis Kelce. But you might have some other questions like how baggy is too baggy and a pair of pants? Or here's an actual question from me, and I think one that many of you share.

我怎样才能不每天穿同样的衣服？也许你在纠结如何在预算内买衣服？你有问题。希望我们有答案。将这些问题、困境、争论等发送至Sundayspecial@nytimes.com，附上你的名字和所在地，我们的专家将在节目中回答部分问题。

How do I not wear the same thing every day? Maybe you're struggling with how do I buy clothes on a budget? You have questions. Hopefully, we have answers. Email those questions, dilemmas, arguments, debates, etcetera to Sundayspecial@nytimes.com along with your name and where you're based, and our experts will answer a few of your questions on the show.

本期节目由亚历克斯·巴伦制作，蒂娜·安塔利尼、凯特·拉普雷斯蒂和卢克·范德普洛格协助完成。弗朗妮·卡尔托斯和达莉亚·哈达德提供了制作支持，温迪·多尔负责剪辑。周日特辑由索菲亚·兰德曼担任技术指导，原创音乐由丹·鲍威尔、玛丽昂·洛萨诺、黛安·王和艾丽西亚·巴伊图创作。

This episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Tina Antalini, Kate LaPresti, and Luke Vanderploeg. We had production assistance from Frannie Kartoth and Dahlia Hadad. It was edited by Wendy Doerr. The Sunday special is engineered by Sofia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Diane Wong, and Alicia Ba Itu.

特别感谢保拉·舒曼。感谢您的收听，我们下周再见。

Special thanks to Paula Schuman. Thanks for listening. See you next week.