美国疾控中心疫苗部门负责人谈为何辞职是他唯一的选择

《纽约时报》应用里有很多你可能没见过的内容。它的设计方式是

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen. The way

所有标签页都集中在顶部，分门别类地展示各个版块。

the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

我能立刻找到符合当下心情的内容。我总会订购游戏板块。

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling. I order games always.

玩迷你游戏。玩Wordle猜词。

Doing the mini. Doing the Wordle.

我太爱它提供的海量内容了，有些东西我根本想不到能在新闻应用里看到。

I loved how much content it exposed me to. Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

这个应用不可或缺。

This app is essential.

《纽约时报》应用。所有资讯，一应俱全。立即下载：nytimes.com/app。

The New York Times app. All of the times, all in one place. Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

这里是《纽约时报》的瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯为您带来的《每日播报》。过去24小时里，美国疾病控制与预防中心陷入动荡。卫生部长小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪试图解雇CDC主任，因她拒绝解雇该机构高层官员或承诺调整已证实有效的疫苗建议。这场冲突导致CDC与白宫形成对峙，并促使另外三名高级官员辞职。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. Over the past twenty four hours, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has been plunged into turmoil. Health secretary Robert F. Kennedy junior tried to fire the CDC's director after she refused to fire top agency officials or commit to new recommendations on proven vaccines. The clash has caused a standoff with the White House, and it's prompted three other senior officials to resign from the agency.

其中一位是德米特里·达斯卡拉基斯医生。在他永久离开CDC几小时后，我们采访了他，谈及他为何选择表明立场以及他对遗留问题的看法。今天是8月29日，星期五。

One of them was doctor Dmitry Daskalakis. We spoke with him just hours after he left the CDC for good about why he chose to take a stand and what he feels he's leaving behind. It's Friday, August 29.

你好。

Hello.

嗨。在开始正式问候之前，我会让一位制作人先检查确认你们是否都已正确设置好。

Hi. I'm gonna let a producer check before before we do all our greetings and everything and make sure you're all set up correctly.

我没有耳机，因为我在CDC时被护送离开耳机存放处。对此我很抱歉。

I don't have headphones because I was escorted away from my headphones at CDC. So I'm sorry about that.

好的。各位准备好了吗？

Alright. We ready to roll, guys?

你们准备好了我就没问题。

I am if you are.

Dimitri Daskalakis医生，非常感谢您在没有耳机的情况下仍参与连线。现在是周四中午12:30左右。在深入探讨今天对话的主题前，能否先说说您今天过得如何？

Doctor. Dimitri Daskalakis, thank you so much for being here even without your headphones. We are talking to you at about 12:30 on Thursday afternoon. And before we get into the details of why we are talking to you today, can you just tell me what has your day been like?

我想最贴切的词是'复杂'。我是一名传染病医生，曾任国家免疫与呼吸疾病中心主任。昨晚我递交了辞呈。今早我一直在收拾办公室，清理窗户被子弹击中后留下的玻璃碎屑。

I think the right word is complex. So I am an infectious disease doctor, and I was the director for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. And, in the evening yesterday, I resigned. And so my morning has been about packing my office, dusting off, the glass dust from the bullets that went through my, window.

哇。是在枪击事件期间...

Wow. During the shootings.

是的。当时我不在场——万幸那时我正在做手术，但关于这件事我确实有很多话要说。现在正忙着掸去物品上的玻璃灰，尽可能多收拾些东西。最后，CDC注销了我的权限，由那些与我共事多年、我深爱的同事们护送离开了园区。

Yeah. I wasn't there. Thankfully, I was having surgery, but I definitely, you know, have a lot to say around that. But dusting off the glass dust from my belongings, trying to pack as much as I can, and then ultimately, you know, having my access revoked at CDC and being escorted off the campus by folks who I work with very closely and who I love.

等等，你是说同事们需要...像是挽着你的手臂带你出去？具体是怎样的情形？

Wait. Like, colleagues had to, like, what, grab your arm and take you out? Or how did that work?

每天与我们共事的安全人员，那些我们信任的人，依照规定执行命令护送我们离开园区，注销权限并收回证件。所以我不再是CDC雇员了。就像我说的，虽然是被充满关爱地护送，但确实是被请出了园区。

Folks that we work with every day from security, people that we trust, following orders as was appropriate to escort us off campus, revoke our access, and take our IDs. And so I am, no longer a CDC employee. And like I said, I was escorted off lovingly, but definitely escorted off the campus.

正如你所说，你昨晚已经辞职了。这就是我们今天与你交谈的原因。而且昨天也有消息传出，CDC主任苏珊·梅纳拉斯博士在与卫生部长小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪的公开斗争中，基本上是在努力保住她的工作。而你和另外三位高级官员本周都以非常公开的方式离职了。

So as you said, you have resigned last night. That's why we're talking to you today. And the news also broke yesterday that the head of the CDC, doctor Susan Menaras, was basically fighting to keep her job amid this very public battle with health secretary Robert F. Kennedy junior. And you and three other high ranking officials left very publicly this week.

所以我有点好奇。你曾说过你是免疫接种部门的主任，意味着你负责国家的疫苗政策。显然，在涉及这次试图解雇以及RFK的领导、他的指令和他最初想要做的事情时，你处于很多争议的中心。所以我想首先问你的是，你能稍微介绍一下你是如何最终进入CDC的吗？你最初在那里做什么？

And so I am sort of curious. You had said that you are director for immunizations, meaning that you are leading vaccine policy for the country. You've obviously been in the middle of a lot of controversy when it comes to this attempted firing and with RFK's leadership, his mandates, what he wants to begin with. So I guess the first thing I wanna ask you is, can you give just a little bit of background about how you ended up at the CDC? What were you doing there to begin with?

你的职责是什么？

What was your mandate?

我是一名传染病医生，所以我最初在纽约市从事临床工作。在纽约州参与了许多关于终结HIV流行计划的工作后，我被提升为疾病控制副专员。实际上，这就是纽约市卫生部的传染病主管。我一直担任这个职位直到2020年11月。之后我加入CDC，担任HIV/AIDS预防部门的负责人。

I'm an infectious disease doctor, so I really started doing clinical work in New York City. After doing a lot of work with the HIV ending the epidemic program in New York State, I was promoted to be the Deputy Commissioner for Disease Control. That's in effect, the Chief of Infectious Diseases for the New York City Department of Health. I was in that role until November 2020. So I joined CDC to be the head of the division of HIVAIDS prevention.

我在那个职位上工作了三个月，然后被调去参与COVID-19的应对工作，负责疫苗特别工作组，当时第一批加强针正在推出。之后我被任命为国家免疫与呼吸疾病中心的主任。所以我是CDC负责疫苗事务的人，与丹·杰尼根一起，他主要负责疫苗安全方面的工作。

I was in that role for three months and then was pulled into the COVID-nineteen response, where I was in charge of the vaccine task force when the first boosters were coming out and was then asked to be the director for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. So I am your vaccine guy at CDC along with Dan Jernigan, who actually focuses on the vaccine safety piece of vaccines.

简单来说，你曾在民主党和共和党政府下工作过，包括拜登和特朗普时期。你在CDC总共工作了多久？

So just to put it really simply, you have worked under both Democratic, Republican administrations, Biden, Trump. How long have you been at CDC all told?

大约五年。

About five years.

我想快进一点。在2024年底、2025年初，特朗普再次当选。他上任后，很明显他会任命小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪为卫生部长。你最初对此有何反应？

So I wanna fast forward a little bit. In late twenty twenty four, early twenty twenty five, Trump gets reelected. He takes office. It's very clear that he was going to install RFK junior as health secretary. What was your initial reaction to that?

你知道，也许我是个病态的乐观主义者，但我确实听了听证会，认真观看了，还做了笔记。我在想，如何在科学正确和临床有效的基础上，实现部长的愿景？我们一直在努力做到这一点。专家最喜欢的就是分享他们的专业知识。我们全力以赴，确保让他了解我们所覆盖的疾病以及我们知道已经预防了许多儿童和成人不良后果的疫苗的详细信息。

So, you know, maybe I'm a pathological optimist, but I, you know, I listened to the hearings. I, you know, watched them avidly. I took notes and said, how can we work within what we know is scientifically correct and clinically valid to be able to realize the vision of the secretary? Like, we've been doing all this work to try to do that. The thing that experts like the most is to share their expertise, And we were all geared up to make sure that we let him know the deep information around the diseases that we cover and the vaccines that we know have prevented so many bad outcomes in kids and adults.

尽管我们向他的几位执行团队成员提供了这些信息，但我们从未被……

And even though we offered that to several of his executive staff, we've never been

已经采纳了。我们会逐一讨论这些。但罗伯特·F·肯尼迪关于疫苗的立场并非秘密。所以我很好奇，是什么让你觉得能够有效传达你所认可的科学依据和公共卫生政策？

taken up on it. And we're gonna get to all of that. But Robert F. Kennedy junior's stance on vaccines was no secret. And so I just sort of wonder, what did you see that gave you hope that you would be able to communicate effectively what you believe the science to be and what you believe public policy should be?

正如我所说，我从部长参加确认听证会时就关注他的一举一动。他表示就任卫生部长时没有任何先入为主的观念或既定想法。

So like I said, I watched everything that the secretary was doing from when he was doing his confirmation hearings. And he said he was landing at HHS with no presupposed notions, no predecided ideas.

你相信这种说法吗？

And you believe that?

我在太多政客手下工作过，不得不相信。

I've worked under so many politicals that I have to believe it.

要想做好工作，除了相信别无选择。

There's no choice but to believe it if you're gonna do your job.

没错。美国人民已经做出选择，他们选出的总统任命了这个职位的人选，总统相信此人能保障国民健康。我们必须从如何合作实现愿景出发，同时确保这个愿景理解科学依据。

That's right. You know, the American people have spoken. They voted for a president, and that president has installed a human into this position who he feels confident will support the health of of people in The United States. So you have to start from the point of how are we gonna work with this to realize the vision while also making sure that vision understands the science.

能否举个早期工作中的例子，你觉得既符合你的使命，也契合当时肯尼迪和CDC的目标？

Can you give us an example of something early on that you were able to work with that you felt fell in line with your mission and perhaps the mission of Kennedy and of the CDC in that moment?

可以。我认为处理德克萨斯州麻疹疫情就是个典型案例。当时主流公共卫生界和部长的表态确实存在信息差异。我们非常谨慎地确保在对外沟通中体现部长的大部分观点。具体来说——

Yeah. I think that one of the great examples is sort of managing the measles outbreak in Texas. We definitely, you know, saw that there was some disparate messaging between sort of, you know, mainline public health and some of what the secretary said. And so I think that we worked really carefully to make sure that we, you know, reflected some of the secretary's vision or most of the secretary's vision into the communication that we made. So I I'll give the example.

我曾前往疫情爆发的德州地区实地考察。从医护人员和社区了解到，如果只是单纯留下疫苗而不采取其他措施是行不通的。当地人不愿去急诊室，也不清楚送孩子就诊的征兆，导致患儿病情恶化才就医。因此我们调整了宣传策略，在强调疫苗重要性的同时，也着重普及需要立即驱车前往一小时车程外的拉伯克市就医的病症特征。

You know, I traveled to the part of Texas where the outbreak was happening. And when I went there, I learned from the providers as well as the community that if you always leave with vaccine in that community, it doesn't work. And so, you know, in Texas, one of the issues was that people didn't feel comfortable going to emergency rooms or didn't know what the signs were to take their kids to the ERs. And so what would happen is the kids would land very, very ill. And so we shifted the message from being, like, an only vaccine drumbeat to including vaccine prominently, but also talking about what the signs were where you should get into your car and drive to Lubbock because it's an hour away.

我记得当时肯尼迪因为主张'应该接种疫苗，但个人有权自主决定'的立场受到很多批评。

I I seem to remember at this moment, Kennedy got a lot of criticism for basically sending a message that people should get vaccines, but you should also be allowed to decide what you want to do.

是的。我们确实尽力将这部分内容融入指导方针中。我认为政府在做的就是努力找到一种方式，在确保我们紧密遵循科学的同时，实现愿景。

Yeah. We really try to do our best to meld sort of that piece of it into the guidance. So, I mean, I think that that's what we do in government is really try to figure out a way to sort of achieve the vision while making sure that we're staying, you know, very close to the science.

你能告诉我你最初是何时开始注意到令人担忧的事情的吗？那些早期迹象是什么？

Can you talk to me about when you actually started seeing things that worried you? What were some of those early signs?

我认为最让我担心的是关于解雇或撤换ACIP 17名成员的叙述，理由是他们因利益冲突而受到损害。

I think that the thing that worried me the most was the narrative around the firing or the dismissal of the, 17 members of ACIP based on the fact that somehow they were compromised because of conflicts of interest.

请快速提醒我们一下，ACIP是什么？

And remind us quickly, ACIP Sure.

这是免疫实践咨询委员会。它是美国CDC下属的机构，负责就疫苗政策向CDC主任提供建议。最终决策权在CDC主任手中，但提供建议的是这个委员会。

It's the advisory committee for immunization practices. It's the body in The US, housed at the CDC, that advises the director of the CDC on vaccine policy. Those policy decisions are ultimately the CDC directors, but it's the committee that advises.

而你看到肯尼迪解雇了这个对制定和发布疫苗政策至关重要的组织中的人员。

And you're seeing Kennedy fire the people at this organization that is central to developing and an issuing vaccine policy.

这些人都是经过审查的，在全国科学界享有声誉，被认为是该领域最优秀的人才。而解雇他们的理由却是利益冲突，以及本届政府无法快速让这个委员会配合实现机构政策目标。

People who are vetted, people who have scientific reputations around the country as being, like, the best and brightest in the area, and the narrative for why they were fired was around their conflicts of interest and the fact that this administration can't put their stamp on this committee fast enough to achieve the policy goals of the agency.

等等。抱歉。那么公开的解雇理由是什么？是因为他们没有与政府保持一致吗？

Wait. I'm sorry. So the stated policies were what? Is it for firing them that they did not fall in line with the with the administration?

给出的两个理由是：他们存在大量利益冲突（这明显不实），他们已接受过利益冲突审查。每次会议中，如有任何冲突，他们都会声明并回避投票。

So the two things were that they were riddled with conflict, which was patently untrue. They had been vetted for conflicts of interest. And at every meeting, if they had any conflict, they stated the conflict and then did not participate in the votes.

但你的意思是，在你看来，这些人被解雇的真正原因是政府觉得'我们控制不了这些人'。

But what you're saying is basically to you what it looked like was that the real reason these people were dismissed is that the administration was like, we can't control these guys.

所以他明确表示，由于他们的任期周转不够快，委员会中不能有代表政府观点的人。

So he clearly stated that because their terms didn't turn over fast enough, they couldn't have people on the committee that represented the administration's point of view.

在你看来，政府究竟想通过撤换这些人来控制什么？比如，通过这些解雇和安插其他人的行为来控制这个团体意味着什么？

In your mind, what was the administration trying to control exactly by getting rid of these people? Like, what would it mean to control that group with these firings and installations of other people?

你知道，ACIP负责制定软性指南。这不是监管指南。这意味着它不会出现在疫苗标签上，规定谁可以或不可以接种。它是更柔和的，是对临床医生的指导。

You know, the ACIP is responsible for making soft guidance. So it's not regulatory guidance. And what that means is it's not the thing that goes on the label for the vaccine that says who can and can't get it. It's softer. It's guidance to clinicians.

这份指南也是触发保险公司覆盖的依据。因此，通过控制这份指南，实际上是为限制人们获取疫苗提供了一条最小阻力的路径。所以，ACIP可以向CDC主任建议进一步限制谁可以接种疫苗。我认为这就是整件事的核心。而且坦率地说，我认为这也是为了取悦可能在疫苗问题上有特定观点的政治基础。

And that guidance is also the thing that triggers coverage by insurance companies. And so by controlling that guidance, what it does is there is a path of least resistance to frankly limit access for vaccines to people. So, you know, the ACIP can recommend to the CDC director to further constrain who can get a vaccine. And so that's what I think this is all about. And I think that there's also, frankly, the need to please a political base who may have specific views around vaccine.

这是兑现围绕疫苗（包括新冠疫苗）所做承诺的更公开方式之一。

And this is one of the more public ways to make good on some of the promises made around vaccines, including COVID.

你刚才描述的委员会接管，就是为什么我们看到关于谁需要什么疫苗的指南改变，尽管科学依据如此，你是这个意思吗？对你来说，这是你在本届政府中看到的一个巨大危险信号。我想知道，在这些变化发生时，有人就这些变化咨询过你吗？在这些事情宣布之前，有人与你商量过吗？我特别想到的是，比如关于儿童接种新冠疫苗的指南。

The takeover of the committee that you've just described, that's the reason why we've seen guidance change about who needs what vaccines despite the science is what you're saying. And for you, this is a huge red flag that you have seen in this administration. I'm wondering, as this is happening, were you consulted on any of these changes? Is anybody consulting with you before these things are announced? Or I'm thinking specifically about the guidance, for example, about children getting COVID nineteen vaccines.

是的。这与ACIP无关，是部长宣布改变儿童接种计划的。我是在X上了解到儿童接种计划的改变的。

Yeah. So this was not related to ACIP, the announcement by the secretary to change the childhood schedule. I learned about the change of the childhood schedule, on x.

你和我们其他人一样，是在社交媒体上得知的。

You learned about it on social media, like the rest of us.

没错。我当时正和CDC的高级领导开会。就在我坐在那里讨论我正在管理的疫情时，我的手机突然被轰炸了，内容是‘我不知道你们要改变儿童接种计划’。所以是有人在给你发信息？是的。

That is correct. So I was sitting in a meeting with senior leaders at CDC. And as I was sitting there talking about the outbreaks that I was managing, my phone blew up with, I didn't know you guys were changing the children's schedule. And so People texting you? Yeah.

不是来自HHS的人。是外界的人因为他们看到了

Not from the not from HHS. People in the world because they saw

世界上的人们。你的朋友、家人或任何看到这个的人可能会觉得，这听起来不像你。

People in the world. Your friends and family or whoever seeing this and being like, this doesn't sound like you.

没错。于是我们接着问，你知道发生了什么吗？我们能看看相关文件吗？因为他们只是说执行变更，但我们从未见过任何书面材料。

Correct. So we then asked the question, you know, what's going on? Can we see some kind of documentation? Because they were like, implement the change. But we've never seen anything in writing.

所以我们要求查看支持这一决策的相关数据，但被告知不行。

So we asked if we could see the sort of supporting data that led to the decision, and we were told no.

直接就拒绝了？

Just flat out no?

直接拒绝。

Flat out no.

但我能问问，你实际上有没有和肯尼迪或者他的高级幕僚讨论过这些事？没有。还是说完全没有沟通？

But can I ask you, did you ever actually have a conversation with Kennedy about any of this or any of his senior staffers? No. Or is it just that No. No communication?

你有没有

Did you

尝试过？有。然后发生了什么？

ever try? Yes. And what would happen?

我们在他刚上任时就提出要做简报。我想有些人可能给一些低级职员做过简报，但不是肯尼迪部长手下的职员。所以，我们中心没有人给部长做过简报。

So we offered to do briefings when he first started. I think some people were able to brief some of lower level staff, but not staff that were secretary Kennedy staff. So, you know, no one from my center has ever briefed the secretary.

任何事都没有？

On anything?

没错。在任何方面都是。

Correct. On anything.

所以基本上，你与RFK没有联系渠道，他也没有主动寻求你的建议或那些理论上应该就此类事务为他提供建议的人的意见。当时你对此有何感受？

So, basically, you don't have a line into RFK, and he's not seeking out your advice or the advice of people who are theoretically supposed to advise him on things like this. How did you feel about that at the time?

我觉得这极不寻常，我们无法将专业意见向上传递，无法提供可能影响决策思维的有价值信息。我不断在想：虽然我们没参与，但上层显然有某种观点。我好奇是谁在主导。我的职责是确保提供可靠科学依据以辅助决策。如果这些科学依据受到非科学因素的干扰，我就不能说自己履行了职责。

I felt that this was highly atypical, that we weren't able to sort of share our expertise up the chain to be able to, you know, provide information that could be meaningful in thought process. And so what I kept thinking was, we're not doing this, but there sure is a point of view up there. I wonder who's doing it. Like, my job is to make sure that we're giving good science so people can make good decisions. And if I can't make sure that that science is untouched by non scientific influence, I cannot say that I'm doing my job.

我相信CDC的科学性将因HHS的干预而受损。如果科学结论出现偏差，受到不当影响，那么我不能让自己的名字出现在这类本应用于重大民生决策、却已失真的科研成果上。

I believe that CDC science is going to be compromised by HHS. And if that science becomes biased, if it gets unduly influenced, then I can't have my name on that science as something that I think should be used to make important decisions for people's lives.

稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

大家好，我是乔尔。这位是《纽约时报》游戏版的朱丽叶。

Hey. I'm Joel. And I'm Juliette from New York Times games.

我们正在街头采访人们关于游戏的话题。

And we're out here talking to people about games.

你玩《纽约时报》的游戏吗？每天玩？有特别喜欢的吗？连线游戏。

You play New York Times games. Yes. Every day. Do you have a favorite? Connections.

这游戏让人思考，我感觉它能锻炼思维弹性。

It just makes you think. I feel like it gives me elasticity.

将十六项内容分成四组，每组四个。

Create four groups of four.

这其实是个相当酷的游戏。你最喜欢的游戏是什么？

This is actually a pretty cool game. What's your favorite game?

填字游戏。

The crossword.

填字游戏？

The crossword?

我和我兄弟一起玩。有时我们能搞定周四的，但我觉得自己单独完成不了周四的。我感觉自己在学习，在完成些什么。我喜欢这种

I do it with my brother. We get Thursday sometimes, but I don't think I can do Thursday on my own. I feel like I'm learning. I feel like I'm accomplishing something. I like the

完成时的感觉。

when you finish it.

我们全家都玩Wordle，还有个超大的群聊。连我奶奶都玩Wordle。

My family does Wordle, and we have a huge group chat. Like, my grandma does Wordle.

你奶奶玩Wordle啊。

Your grandma does Wordle.

对啊，每天都玩。你对Wordle有什么独特见解吗？应该故意用策略性差的起始词让游戏更有趣。这些游戏之所以好玩，就是因为它们像是五到十分钟的小憩。

Oh, every day. Yeah. Do you have a Wordle hot take? You should start with a word that's strategically bad to make it more fun. All of these games are so fun because it's like a little five to ten minute, like, break.

我超爱这些游戏。

I love these games. Yeah.

纽约时报游戏订阅用户可畅玩所有游戏及功能。立即访问nytimes.com/games获取特别优惠。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

Daskalakis医生，能否请您说得更具体些？比如，此刻您具体在担忧什么？

Doctor Daskalakis, can you be a little bit more specific? Like, what are you specifically worried about in this moment?

是的，我非常担心CDC数据会被以不准确的方式呈现，或被操纵得偏离事实，这将直接影响决策。另一个担忧是未经核实的数据来源成为主要参考。上次ACIP会议就出现了这种情况，有人提交了关于硫柳汞的未经验证报告，既未经CDC审核，也未经其他科学家核实。

So, yeah, I'm very worried that CDC data will either be presented in a light that's inaccurate or will be manipulated in a way that doesn't reflect reality, and that's going to be what will lead to decision making. The other piece is I'm also very worried about unvetted sources of data becoming the prominent data that's presented. We had that happen at the last ACIP meeting with unvetted presentation about Thimerosal that had not been fact checked by anyone at CDC or any other scientist.

如果我没记错的话，硫柳汞是疫苗中的一种成分，肯尼迪曾要求将其从疫苗中移除。是这样吧？

Thimerosal is an ingredient in vaccines that Kennedy wanted removed from vaccines, if I'm not mistaken. Correct.

它只是约4%流感疫苗使用的防腐剂，能让诊所使用更便宜的多剂量瓶装疫苗。有些机构实在负担不起为每位接种者购买单剂疫苗。这原本不是大问题，因为所有数据都表明硫柳汞无害。但那份报告却试图将硫柳汞与神经认知障碍（如自闭症）联系起来，完全违背CDC和FDA网站多年来的科学结论。

It's a preservative that is used in, oh, about four percent of influenza vaccines only that lets some doctors' offices a multi dose vial that's cheaper so they are able to get more for their buck, and some places just can't afford to get a single dose vaccine for the number of people they have to vaccinate. So it's a small thing because all of the data says that Thimerosal doesn't do anything. But a presentation that does not sort of go along with any of the science posted on the CDC or FDA website for years now, presentation was made that tried to implicate thimerosal with neurocognitive and disorders such as autism.

我猜您会说这缺乏证据支持。

Which I would imagine you say that there is not evidence for it.

确实没有证据支持。

There's no evidence for it.

您描述的CDC准备向公众传播错误信息的情况让我震惊——考虑到小罗伯特·肯尼迪的整个主张就是让公众获得更准确信息以做出健康决策，这实在讽刺。另外您提到的CDC总部枪击案中，据我们所知枪手认为新冠疫苗使他患病。您如何看待错误信息带来的风险和后果？如何理解这起事件？

I'm really struck by the fact that you are describing a CDC that is poised to distribute misinformation to the public, which is something that feels very ironic given the fact that RFK Jr. Whole platform is to basically get better information to the public so they can make better decisions, be healthier. And it feels like we should point out here that the shooting that you mentioned that was at CDC headquarters in Atlanta, the shooter, as far as we know, he believed that the COVID vaccine had made him ill. And so I just wonder, how did you feel thinking about some of the risks and the consequences of bad information? How are you making sense of that event?

那天我因手术不在现场，算是幸运。但我坚信言辞的力量。部长曾公开宣称mRNA疫苗是人类已知最致命的疫苗，这绝非事实。

Yeah. I mean, I wasn't on the campus because I was having surgery that day, thankfully. But I do really believe that words matter. The secretary has come out and said mRNA vaccines are the deadliest vaccines known to humans. It's untrue.

这类轻率言论会深入人们心理，尤其当他们对疫苗本就心存芥蒂时。部长的话是否直接导致枪击案？不是。但是否营造了可能引发这类事件的环境？

And so, like, that kind of loose and fast language Mhmm. I think gets into people's psyche, especially in the circumstance where they already have some fundamental disagreement around vaccines or other things. So do I think that what the secretary said made the shooter shoot up CDC? No. Do I think that it made the environment where that could happen?

毫无疑问。

Absolutely.

枪击事件后他说了什么？我是说，你提到从未向他汇报过任何事，所以我猜你当时没和他交谈。但他是否发布了某种内部备忘录或发表了讲话？或者他对枪击事件的内部沟通是怎样的？

What did he say after the shooting? I mean, you said you never briefed him on anything, so I assume you didn't talk to him at this moment. But did he, I don't know, issue some sort of internal memo or make a speech? Or what was the communication about the shooting internally from him?

据我所知，他曾在CDC员工不在时到访。由于当时现场实际上需要作为犯罪现场处理，我们的员工都在居家办公。我记得他发了一条'思念与祈祷'的推文，随后去摄影棚录制电视节目时声称专家不值得信任。坦白说，我认为他们正利用枪击事件加速推进某些工作——这正是我离职的原因，过去两周他们加速推进的项目会损害CDC的科学公信力。

As far as I can tell, there was a visit to CDC when staff wasn't there. Our staff was working from home because of the fact that, they would have to be, in effect, a police scene if they were coming in at that time. He, I think, released a tweet that was, you know, very much thoughts and prayers. And then subsequently went to a studio and shot a television show where he said that experts should not be trusted. And I'll say that I actually think that they're taking the shooting as a way to accelerate some of the work that they're doing because I'll say in the last two weeks, the reason that I quit is because I think they've accelerated the work that will compromise CDC science.

能否具体说明？什么是压垮你的最后一根稻草？最近两周发生了什么？

Can you be a little bit more specific? Like, what was the final straw for you? What's been happening the last couple weeks?

我认为关键转折点是CDC可能失去科学领导力。苏珊的离职可能性叠加之前累积的种种打击，但想到我们将没有任何科学领导，而且下届免疫实践咨询委员会会议在即——我很清楚会上可能发生什么——这极可能损害CDC的声誉和数据完整性。我无法参与其中。

I think the final straw was really the possibility of not having scientific leadership at CDC. So, you know, Susan potentially not being there compounded about, by the sort of death by a thousand cuts that have already suffered here. But the notion that we weren't gonna have any scientific leadership and that, you know, the next ACIP meeting is coming, I know that what's gonna go on there, has a very high probability of compromising CDC's reputation and data. And so I just can't be a part of that.

很多听众会理解你的选择和离职原因。你无法容忍科学以外的因素左右CDC决策。但我在想，或许有人会说你们这些刚离职的高层本是抵御这些危险局面的最后堡垒。你们离开后，还有谁能提供保护？

I think a lot of people will listen to this, and they will understand what you are saying and the reasons why you have left. And you could not allow anything other than science to dictate how you would act at the CDC. But I do wonder. Some might also say that you, senior leadership, that recently just left, you are the last bulwark against the very things that you are now saying are untenable and are dangerous. And so I guess what I'm asking is if you guys leave, like, who else is left and what protection is there?

这个问题很尖锐。我坚持了七个月，经历了许多疯狂时刻。但我发现这个环境已无法开展有效的公共卫生工作。

Yeah. No. I I think it's a great question. And I held on for seven months despite some really wild times. I found that there was no path to doing good public health in the environment anymore.

我衷心祝愿他们在没有流程指导者的情况下能顺利召开会议。我已为CDC和公共卫生事业倾尽所有，拥有辉煌职业生涯。但如今我无法阻止科学标准被践踏，对美国民众的效用已终结。

And so I do wish them great luck in trying to execute the meeting without people who are able to guide them through the process. At the end of the day, I've given all that I can to CDC and to public health. I've had a really strong career. And, you know, I really feel like that my utility to the American people is done there because I'm not able to control what is absolutely going to be compromised science.

当前公共卫生和政策领域最令人忧心的噩梦场景是：若再暴发疫情，我们将没有合格的科学家掌舵，政策制定会背离科学。你是否也有这种担忧？

Obviously, the nightmare scenario that a lot of people right now are worried about when they look at the landscape of public health and public policy is that there could be another pandemic, and we are not gonna have the right scientists in charge, and we're not gonna have the right policies in charge. And that, basically, something other than science will dictate our response. And I wonder if you share that particular nightmare.

我非常担忧美国的公共卫生安全和个人健康。不仅CDC，FDA、NIH乃至学术界都因科研资金遭受冲击而流失人才，我们正在失去懂行的专家。这个真空迟早会显现——传染病总能找到突破口。

I'm very concerned about the public health security of The United States. I'm concerned about the individual health of people. I'm also very concerned that the erosion of scientists, not only at CDC, but also at FDA, NIH, and and frankly, in academia with the aggressiveness that's happened toward that funding as well, that we really are losing the people who know how to do this. I do think that there's going to be a vacuum. I can't tell you when it's gonna happen, but infectious diseases always find a way.

我们对全球传染病动态的监测能力已减弱。美国曾是这个领域的领导者，如今优势不复存在。像埃博拉这类疫情，过去CDC能在源头阻断其威胁美国。若缺席监测，可能要等到病毒登陆本土才会察觉。

And we have less visibility in what's happening with infectious diseases across the entire globe. We've been a leader in that space Mhmm. And that's ended. And so I'm worried about things like Ebola where we have been able at CDC to stop infections at their source before they cause a threat to The US. If we're not there, don't know what's going on, it may not be until it lands on our shores that we know what's happening.

在你提到的那些情境中，比如，Daskalakis医生，如果你已经离开CDC，又像你所说担心某些事情会波及我们，你会怎么做？公共卫生领域还有什么可操作的杠杆吗？

In the scenarios that you're talking about, like, what do you do you, doctor Daskalakis, do if you've left the CDC and you're worried about something, as you said, coming onto our shores? Like, what lever is there for you to pull for public health?

要知道，我们今天谈论的CDC甚至和两年前都不可同日而语。我认为当前联邦公共卫生体系已难以有效运作。因此需要一些了解内情的无畏倡导者站出来。我希望通过拉响警报，能让政策制定者和政府人员真正意识到事态严重性。同时我认为美国公众必须明白，鉴于我们透露的情况，他们对ACIP发布的建议务必保持警惕。

So, you know, the CDC that we're talking about today is not the CDC of even two years ago. And so I don't think that the place to be currently is in federal public health to be effective. So, you know, I think that the need for some fearless advocates who know the inside is necessary. And I hope that, you know, lifting the red flag so folks who are policymakers, folks in government really understand that there's something extremely wrong. And also, I think it's important for the American public to know that they really need to be cautious about the recommendations that they're hearing coming out of ACIP given what we're telling you.

等等。为了确认理解正确，你是说美国民众现在应该对负责保护他们安全的机构给出的建议持怀疑态度？

Wait. Just so I'm clear, you're saying that the American people should now be wary of the advice they get from the agency that is tasked with keeping them safe?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这对刚离开CDC的人来说是极其惊人的表态。在特朗普第二任期的当下，我们已听闻太多政府人员离职。这些资深公务员有的转投私营部门，有的尝试非营利领域。我更好奇你如何看待此刻联邦政府的角色以及政府未来的职能定位。

I feel like that is an extraordinary thing for a person who has just left the CDC to say. And at this point in the second Trump administration, we have heard of so many people who have left their posts in government. These are longtime civil servants. They're maybe trying their hand at the private sector, or nonprofit sector. And I guess I'm curious about just more broadly how you think of the role of the federal government in this moment and the function of government going forward.

未来会怎样我无从知晓，因为根本没人阐明。我从卫生与公众服务部听到很多口号，但关于公共卫生的实际愿景却只字未提。

Yeah. I don't know what the future is because it's not been expressed. I have a lot of slogans, that I'm hearing from HHS, but not a lot of vision of what actually happens with public health.

稍等。我必须追问这些口号的事——既然你暗示不要相信联邦机构的建议，其中是否包括'自己做研究'这类口号？

Wait. I have to ask you about these slogans, though, because everything you're saying if you're saying don't trust what you're hearing from the federal agencies, is one of those slogans do your own research?

我我

I I

这就是你现在的立场吗？因为你正在告诉人们不要听从官方意见。

And is that what you think at this point? Because you're telling people don't listen to the officials.

我认为现阶段应该咨询你的医生如何解读。参考你信任的医生及医疗机构所属专业组织的建议，同时认真质疑联邦层面的决策——因为那里存在不透明的过度干预和指令。所谓的彻底透明化我从未得见，所谓的黄金标准科学同样无迹可寻。这些口号在我看来不过是'顺我者昌'的潜台词。

I think I think that at this point, you should ask your doctor, like what the interpretation is. Look at what professional organizations that represent the doctors and providers that you trust, what they're recommending, and really question what's happening sort of on the federal level because of undue influence and directives that are not transparent. So radical transparency, I've not seen any of that. Gold standard science, not seen any of that either. And so these are the things that I hear that to me are code for, it's my way or the highway.

因此，这并不是公共卫生的运作方式，也不是科学的运作方式。

And so that is not the way public health works, and that's not the way science works.

当你辞职时，你写了一封措辞强烈的信。我想给你读其中的一段。你说，公共卫生不仅关乎个人健康，更关乎社区、国家乃至世界的健康。国家的卫生安全正处于危险之中，掌握在那些只关注意识形态私利的人手中。我想请你反思一下，这与您之前提到的‘人们现在保护自身安全的最佳方式是咨询医生’这一观点如何对应。

When you resigned, you wrote a very strongly worded letter. And I wanna read you a paragraph from it. You said, public health is not merely about the health of the individual, but it is about the health of the community, the nation, and the world. The nation's health security is at risk and is in the hands of people focusing on ideological self interest. And I would just like you to reflect on how that holds up to the idea that you mentioned earlier that the best way people can keep themselves safe right now is to talk to their doctor.

公开发表那封信时，你是什么感受？

How did it feel to write that publicly?

在我的整个职业生涯中，我从不退缩。当时觉得这是正确的事，虽然艰难。但当我成为医生时，当我加入CDC时，我都承诺要致力于改善人们的健康。因此，作为临床医生、医师和公共卫生专家，我的职责就是确保人们了解真相。

I've never been one to hold back in my entire career. It felt like the right thing to do. It felt hard. But I made a promise when I became a doctor, and I made a promise when I went to CDC that I would make sure that I work to improve the health of people. And so it's my job as a clinician, as a physician, and a public health professional, to really make sure that folks know what's happening.

写那封信让我压力很大。我不想让自己成为攻击目标，因为我知道这不可避免。但我对我们国家和民众的健康安全感到极度担忧。我必须大声说出来。我认为数据将会被篡改。

And so I felt very stressed by writing it. I don't wanna put myself up for attack, because I'm sure I'm gonna get it. But I am very, very worried about the safety of our country and our health. And I had to say it out loud. I think that the data is gonna be compromised.

科学将不再是科学，而会成为科学与意识形态拼凑的怪物。

The science is not gonna be the science. It's gonna be some Frankenstein of science and ideology.

当你辞职的消息传出时，你最担心谁的反应？

Whose reaction were you worried about the most when they learned about your resignation?

我丈夫的。这会引发各种反弹。为什么？考虑到当前的环境。我的社交媒体上已经收到一堆恐同言论了。

My husband's. That's gonna cause all sorts of backlash. Why? Given our current environment. I've already gotten a bunch of homophobic comments on my social media.

所以我猜情况只会更糟。但这就是事实。为了让能在CDC工作，我把丈夫搬到了亚特兰大。我希望我能说是某个学者或公共卫生同行的反应，但你知道，家人永远排在第一位。

And so I imagine that will just make it worse. But that's the truth. I moved my husband to Atlanta so that I could be at the CDC. I wish I could say it was some academic or other public health person, but, you know, my family matters first.

到目前为止，他对你离职的决定说了什么？

What has he said to you so far about your decision to leave?

最终一切顺利。他明白，我的时机已到。

It all worked out okay. He knows that, the time had come for me.

迪米特里·达斯卡拉基斯医生，非常感谢您抽出时间。

Doctor Dimitri Daskalakis, thank you so much for your time.

谢谢邀请。

Thank you for having me.

周四下午，参议员比尔·卡西迪呼吁参议院健康与人类服务部免疫实践咨询委员会无限期推迟原定9月18日的会议。他在声明中表示，若会议继续举行，鉴于指控的严重性及CDC领导层当前的动荡，任何建议都应因缺乏正当性而被否决。稍后继续。以下是今日其他要闻：美联储理事丽莎·库克周四起诉特朗普总统，因其以涉嫌抵押贷款欺诈为由解雇她。

On Thursday afternoon, senator Bill Cassidy called for the Senate Health and Human Services Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices to indefinitely postpone their meeting on September 18. In a statement, he said that, quote, if the meeting proceeds, any recommendations should be rejected as lacking legitimacy, given the seriousness of the allegations and the current turmoil in CDC leadership. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Lisa Cook, a governor on the Federal Reserve Board, sued president Trump on Thursday over his decision to fire her for alleged mortgage fraud.

这场诉讼将引发关于国家中央银行未来的标志性法律斗争。总统声称因抵押欺诈指控解雇库克，尽管她从未被指控有任何不当行为。库克的诉讼称总统无合法解雇理由，并称此举史无前例且违法。她还将特朗普的行为描述为向独立的美联储施压降息的政治行动。本周末预告：我们将推荐一些您可能喜欢的节目。

The lawsuit sets the stage for a landmark legal battle over the future of the nation's central bank. The president has said he was dismissing Cook over accusations of mortgage fraud even though she has not been charged with any wrongdoing. Cook's lawsuit said the president did not have legal cause to fire her and described her ouster as unprecedented and illegal. She also framed mister Trump's actions as part of an overtly political campaign to pressure the independent Fed into lowering interest rates. This weekend, a heads up that we'll be sharing some shows that we think you'll enjoy.

首先是常规访谈环节，露露·加西亚-纳瓦罗将与著名作家阿兰达蒂·洛伊探讨其新回忆录——书中既剖析了与母亲的复杂关系，也表达了对美国发展方向的忧虑。随后是新栏目：自本周日起至年底，每周日我的同事书评编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹将主持圆桌会谈，轮流邀请影评人、编辑及报道影视、网络、时尚、美食等领域的记者参与讨论。敬请收听。今日节目由亚历克斯·斯特恩、香农·林、罗伯·齐普科和里基·诺维茨基制作。

First, as usual, the interview, where Lulu Garcia Navarro talks with acclaimed author Arundhati Roy about her new memoir that explores her complicated relationship with her mother and also about her fears for the direction America is headed. Then something new starting this Sunday and every Sunday through the end of the year. My colleague, book review editor Gilbert Cruz, will be hosting a weekly roundtable where he'll talk with a rotating cast of critics, editors, and reporters who cover movies, TV, the Internet, styles, food, and so much more. I hope you give it a listen. Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern, Shannon Lin, Rob Zipko, and Ricky Novetsky.

节目由佩奇·考伊特和MJ·戴维斯·林编辑，艾丽莎·莫克斯利负责音频工程。特别感谢阿波尔瓦·曼达维利和迈克尔·梅森。日常节目音频团队包括克里斯·伍德和艾丽莎·莫克斯利，工程支持来自布拉德·费舍尔、麦迪·马谢洛、尼克·皮特曼和凯尔·格兰迪洛。节目音乐由丹·鲍威尔、玛丽昂·洛萨诺、艾丽西亚·贝托普、黛安·王、帕特·麦库斯克、罗温·尼米斯托和索菲亚·兰德曼创作。主题曲由Wonderly的本·兰斯伯格和吉姆·布伦伯格制作。

It was edited by Paige Cowitt and MJ Davis Lin and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Aporva Mandavilli and Michael Mason. The DAILIES engineers are Chris Wood and Alyssa Moxley, with engineering support from Brad Fisher, Maddie Masiello, Nick Pittman, and Kyle Grandilo. Music on the show is composed by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Beitoop, Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Rowan Nimisto, and Sofia Landman. Our theme song is by Ben Lansberg and Jim Brundberg of Wonderly.

广播团队成员包括乔迪·贝克尔、罗温·尼米斯托、黛安·王和凯瑟琳·安德森。亚历山大·李·杨任副执行制作人，迈克·贝努瓦任副主编，佩奇·考伊特为《每日》节目主编，本·卡尔霍恩任执行制作人。

Our radio team is Jody Becker, Rowan Nemisto, Diane Wong, and Katherine Anderson. Alexander Lee Young is our deputy executive producer. Mike Benoit is our deputy editor. Paige Cowet is the editor of The Daily. Ben Calhoun is our executive producer.

特别感谢《纽约时报》音频总监保拉·舒曼、副执行主编萨姆·多尔尼克、节目创始编辑丽莎·托宾及音频副总监拉里萨·安德森。本期《每日》节目到此结束，我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，节后周二再见。

Special thanks to Paula Schuman, director of audio for The New York Times, to deputy managing editor Sam Dolnick, to the founding editor of the show Lisa Tobin, and to deputy director of audio, Larissa Anderson. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you on Tuesday after the holiday.