民主党人的停摆豪赌

我是戴安娜·邓恩。我希望能够与我的孙女们共享我的《纽约时报》账户。我们住在一个非常偏远的地区。我想共享我的账户，只是为了增加她们对整个世界的了解。非常感谢。

My name is Diana Dunn. I would like to be able to share my New York Times account with my granddaughters. We live in a very rural area. I would like to share my account just to increase their knowledge of our whole world. Thank you so much.

戴安娜，我们听到了您的需求。《纽约时报》现推出家庭订阅服务，一个订阅最多可支持四位家庭成员独立登录。了解更多详情，请访问nytimes.com/family。

Diana, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

这里是《纽约时报》的迈克尔·巴尔巴罗，您正在收听的是《每日播报》。我现在站在美国国会大厦的圆形大厅，就在几分钟前，联邦政府已正式开始停摆。这是民主党人对抗特朗普总统第二任期议程迄今为止最大胆的抵制行动。现在的问题是，民主党的这场豪赌会成功还是会适得其反。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. I am standing in the rotunda of The United States Capitol, where as of just a few moments ago, the federal government has officially begun to shut down. It is by far the most audacious act of resistance by Democrats against president Trump's second term agenda. And the question now is whether the Democrats' gamble will pay off or whether it is going to backfire.

今天，我们将讲述民主党如何走到这一步，以及在政府停摆前的最后几小时里，国会内部的决策过程。今天是10月1日，星期三。

Today, the story of how the Democrats got to this point and what their decision making looked like inside the Capitol in the hours leading up to this shutdown. It's Wednesday, October 1.

好的。测试123。测试123。迈克尔·巴尔巴罗，早上好。

Okay. Testing 123. Testing 123. Michael Barbaro, Good morning.

测试345。早上好，玛丽。

Testing 345. Good morning, Mary.

告诉我我们现在的位置。

Tell me where we are right now.

据《华盛顿日报》编辑、华盛顿居民Rachel Kester所述，我们正位于美国国会大厦东侧，眺望着穹顶。此刻是周二上午10:20，潮湿的早晨，若事态按我们预期发展，今天将是政府停摆之日。我们即将进入国会大厦与同事Katie Edmondson会面。她是《时代》杂志的国会记者，将为我们详细解读导致此次停摆的来龙去脉。

We're on the, according to Rachel Kester, daily editor, Washington resident, the East Side Of The United States Capitol, looking at the dome. It's a humid morning here, Tuesday, 10:20AM, government shutdown day if things proceed in the direction we believe they will for the rest of the day. And we're about to head into the capital to go meet with our colleague Katie Edmondson. She's a Time's congressional correspondent. She's gonna talk us through really the road to this moment to shut down.

她正在等我们，我们得通过层层安检。你要先走吗？我跟着你。谢谢。好的。

So she's waiting for us, and we gotta go head through a gauntlet of security. You wanna go first? I'll go behind you. Thank you. Okay.

你们是

You guys are

准备好了。你知道怎么

all set. Do you know how

去那里吗？

to get there?

不，我们不知道。

No. We don't.

对，拐个弯，乘电梯到三楼。搞定。

Yep. Around the corner, elevator to three. Done.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。请坐。

Thank you. Take your seat.

你也是。好的。我们要进电梯了。对，这里是参议院新闻走廊。

You too. Alright. We're gonna get we're gonna get in this elevator. Yeah. This is the Senate Press gallery.

这里很安静。

Quiet in here.

好的。你好。

Okay. Hello.

嗨。

Hi there.

凯蒂。欢迎。欢迎来到我们这个小...我也不知道该怎么说。

Katie. Welcome. Welcome to our little, I don't know.

真人面对面面试？是啊。抱歉，我出了好多汗。你好。

An actual in person interview? Yeah. Sorry. I'm so sweaty. Hi.

但你看上去气色不错。你看起来

But you look like alive. You look

对，对，对。我现在感觉挺好的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel I feel fine by now. Yeah.

问题是现在停摆会持续多久。我们已经转变了策略。我觉得这里确实有种不可避免的感觉。所以我不再那么期待突然出现突破性谈判。相反，我认为这会相当程式化，就像，双方轮流发言指责对方，然后

The the bedding is now how long the shutdown is gonna be. We've shifted yeah. I think there really is just a feeling of inevitability here. So I'm less, like, guarding for breakthrough negotiations that are gonna pop all of a sudden. And instead, think it's gonna be pretty rote, like, each side steps up to the mic and points the finger at the other side and

没错。

Right.

我们差不多就从那里继续推进。

We're sort of in go from there.

我们处于停摆前的状态，但对停摆本身已无悬念，这确实有点惊人。

We're in pre shutdown mode, but there's not ambiguity about shutdown, which is really kind of striking.

是的。确实如此。我是说，上一次实际发生的政府停摆——那还只是部分停摆——是在2018到2019年。显然，在那之后，我报道过许多预算案在悬崖边缘反复拉锯的情况，看起来可能有一两天或几天会跌落悬崖，但你知道，两党的国会领袖总是能把各自的党派从悬崖边拉回来。而现在的氛围完全不同了，很大程度上是因为今年三月发生的事情。

Yeah. It is. I mean, what the last actual shutdown and that was a partial shutdown was 2018, 2019. And obviously, in between then, I've covered a lot of stops and starts with spending bills where it seemed like maybe we were gonna teeter off the cliff for a day, a couple of days, and, you know, congressional leaders in both parties always sort of, like, yanked their parties back from the cliff, and that is very much not the feeling. Now in large part because of what happened back in March, I think, this time.

提醒我一下当时的情况是怎样的。

And remind me of a situation that we were in back then.

今年三月时，我们面临另一个政府资金截止日期，立法者必须通过某种支出法案来避免停摆。迈克尔，如果你还记得的话，当时民主党内部对于是否资助政府存在很大焦虑，因为那正是特朗普政府采取激进手段收回国会已拨款项目的高峰期。行政部门如此强势的作风让许多立法者感到不安，尤其激怒了民主党人。

Well, back in March, we had another government funding deadline that lawmakers had to pass some sort of spending bill to overt a shutdown. And, Michael, if you remember that there was a lot of angst among Democrats at the time over whether or not to fund the government because this was at the height of Doge. This was at the height of the Trump administration taking really aggressive steps to claw back money that Congress had already appropriated. The executive branch really throwing its weight around in a way that made a lot of lawmakers uncomfortable, but certainly that infuriated Democrats.

没错。有种观点认为这是民主党人的机会，是他们对抗特朗普政府的筹码。

Right. There's a school of thought that this was the Democrats' moment, and this was their leverage to stand up to the Trump administration.

正是如此。我们在众议院看到了这一幕：议长迈克·约翰逊提出了一项干净的短期拨款法案，而众议院所有民主党人都投了反对票。预期参议院也会发生类似情况——他们不愿用自己的投票帮助共和党人推进维持现状的支出法案。要知道，迈克尔，根据参议院规则，任何支出法案都需要60票才能通过，而共和党只掌握53票。

That's right. And we saw that in the house. Speaker Mike Johnson put forward a clean short term funding bill, and we saw every single democrat in the house vote against that bill. And the expectation, I think, was that something similar was going to happen in the Senate, that they did not want to lend their votes to help Republicans advance a spending bill to keep business going as usual. If you remember, Michael, obviously, given the math in the Senate, you need 60 votes to clear any sort of spending bill, and Republicans control 53 votes.

所以任何支出法案想要推进，都必须获得民主党人的支持。但纽约州参议员、民主党领袖查克·舒默让许多党内成员感到意外，他在最后时刻基本上推翻了自己先前的立场...

So for any spending bill to move forward, it has to have some sort of democratic support. Right. But senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the democratic leader, surprised a lot of his own members when he basically reversed himself in a

就在最后一刻。

At the very last minute.

就在最后一刻，参议院即将投票推进支出法案前的一场私人午宴上。

At the very last minute, in a private luncheon right before the senate was set to vote to advance the spending bill.

我认为我的职责是为国家做出最佳选择，以最小化对美国人民的伤害。

I believe it is my job to make the best choice for the country to minimize the harms to the American people.

他提出论点称，如果不让支出法案通过，实际上对民主党人会更不利。

And he made the case that it actually was going to be worse for Democrats if they didn't allow the spending bill to advance.

正如我所说，尽管通过这项持续决议案很糟糕，但允许唐纳德·特朗普通过政府停摆获得更大权力是更糟糕的选择。

As bad as passing the CR is, as I said, allowing Donald Trump to take even much more power via a government shutdown is a far worse option.

他论证说，通过关闭政府，他们将赋予特朗普总统及其副手过多权力，实质上可以关闭部分政府部门且可能永不重启。

He made the argument that by shutting down the government, they were going to cede president Trump and his deputies far too much power, essentially, to shut down some parts of the government and maybe never reopen it.

因此，我将投票支持维持政府运转，避免其停摆。

Therefore, I will vote to keep the government open and not shut it down.

当然，迈克尔，你会记得这个决定引发了强烈反弹。这个决定让许多曾在众议院投票阻止该法案的民主党议员措手不及，也激怒了许多民主党活动人士和全国选民。对舒默而言，这是他职业生涯中遭遇的最严厉批评之一，有人公开质疑他是否胜任参议院民主党领袖一职，更有活动团体要求他辞职。

And, of course, Michael, you'll remember that there was a huge backlash to that decision. It was a decision that blindsided a lot of house Democrats who, again, had voted to block that bill in the house. And it blindsided and really infuriated a lot of Democratic activists, voters out in the country. And for Schumer, some of the worst blowback he's ever received in his career, you had people openly questioning whether he was up to the job of leading democrats here in the senate. You had some activist groups calling for him to step down.

你甚至看到众议院民主党领袖哈基姆·杰弗里斯都不愿回答这个问题——舒默参议员是否应该继续担任参议院民主党领袖？那一刻民主党内部的分裂之深可见一斑。

You even had Hakim Jeffries, the democratic leader in the house, being unwilling to answer the question, should senator Schumer remain the Democratic leader in the senate? That's how deep the fissures were in that moment within the Democratic party.

那确实是个异常激烈的反弹时刻。没错。

It was an extraordinary moment of backlash. Right.

所以现在，时隔数月，我们似乎又回到了似曾相识的局面。

And so now, all these months later, we get to what seems like deja vu all over again.

是的。关停还是不关停。而且我们再次陷入这样的情境：众议院已经通过了短期支出法案，所以所有焦点又一次落在参议院的动向。嗯。但迈克尔，你现在和舒默参议员——现在的领袖舒默——以及其他民主党人交谈时，他们会强调感觉此刻与三月份时已截然不同。

Right. To shut down or not to shut down. And, again, we're in a situation where the house already passed the short term spending bill, and so all of the focus once again comes down to what happens in the senate. Mhmm. But, you know, Michael, when you talk to senator Schumer now, leader Schumer now, and you talk to democrats, they will make the case that they feel they are in a a very different moment now than they were back in March.

具体怎么说？

And exactly how?

他们指出了三个关键数据点。前两点与医疗保健相关：第一，自从三月份投票通过政府拨款后，共和党利用其执政优势强行通过了所谓'宏伟法案'，其中包含对医疗补助计划的大幅削减。没错。

Well, they point to three big data points here. The first two relating to health care. So number one, since they voted to fund the government in March, Republicans used their governing trifecta to push through the so called big beautiful bill that carried these steep cuts to Medicaid. Right. Right.

因此民主党主张美国选民实际上强烈反对该立法中的医疗补助削减条款，希望国会中的民主党人予以抵制。所以他们提出的条件是：如果共和党想要我们民主党人投票支持政府运转，就必须撤销'宏伟法案'中的医疗补助削减条款。

So Democrats are making the arguments that American voters, in fact, despise the Medicaid cuts that are contained in that legislation and want Democrats in Congress to push back. And so one of their asks is that if you Republicans want us as Democrats to lend our votes to keep the government open, then we want you to reverse the Medicaid cuts contained within the big beautiful bill.

考虑到这是总统标志性国内政策法案的核心内容，这个要求确实非常重大。

A huge huge ask given how central that is to the president's marquee domestic policy bill.

没错。第二点是什么？第二点同样与医疗保健相关。年底时，有一系列奥巴马医改的税收补贴即将到期。这些税收抵免是民主党在国会占多数时通过立法确立的。

Right. What's number two? Number two, also health care related. At the end of the year, there are a number of Obamacare tax subsidies that are set to expire. Now these are tax credits that Democrats passed into law when they had the majority in Congress.

它们将在年底到期，据预测如果不延期，未来十年约有400万人将失去医疗保险覆盖，同时约2200万人的医疗费用将会上涨。

They're set to expire at the end of the year, and it's projected that about 4,000,000 people over the next decade will lose health care coverage if those are not extended and that prices health care prices are going to go up for about 22 additional million people.

对。民主党还引用数据称，这将导致保费上涨114%。

Right. And the Democrats use numbers like premiums rising a 114% as a result of this.

预计这将显著推高家庭和老年夫妇的医疗费用。因此民主党主张将这些补贴延期与政府支出法案挂钩，部分原因是时间紧迫——民众此刻正在医保市场确定他们的医疗计划。

It's projected to jack up health care prices pretty significantly for families, for older couples. And so Democrats are making the argument to tie extending those subsidies to the government spending bill, in part because time is of the essence. People are going to the marketplace to lock in their health care plans as we speak.

明白了。那么第三个议题是什么？

Okay. And what's the third issue?

第三个议题是白宫单方面撤销资金的行动，试图收回国会已批准的款项。迈克尔，我们都知道白宫一直在选择性决定哪些资金拨给国会指定的机构，在某些情况下他们完全冻结或取消了资金，特别是涉及外援的部分。

So the third issue is the White House's campaign to unilaterally rescind money, to claw back money that Congress already approved. And again, Michael, you and I both know the White House has been picking and choosing which funds they want to disperse, let go to the agencies that congress wanted that funding to go to. And in some cases, they have frozen or canceled funding entirely, especially when it comes to foreign aid.

没错。这样一来，实质上就绕过了国会的意愿。

Right. And thereby, essentially circumventing the will of congress.

正是如此。这激怒了民主党和共和党双方。但民主党尤其在这个资金争夺战中紧盯这个问题，因为他们部分论点是：如果你们的官员在事后收回我们想要拨出的资金，你们怎么能指望我们同意任何两党资金协议呢？

That's right. That has infuriated both Democrats and Republicans. But Democrats in particular have zeroed in on this issue in this funding fight because part of their argument is, how can you expect us to agree to any sort of bipartisan funding agreement if then your deputies on the back end take back money that we wanted to go out.

明白了。那么共和党对于突然将这三个要求与政府资金拨款行为捆绑的做法有何回应？即这三个理由会被用来关闭政府。

Got it. And what do Republicans say to the idea of these three demands being suddenly tethered to the act of funding the government? That these three rationales would be used to shut it down.

共和党的论点是，看，我们刚刚提出了一个纯粹的资金延期方案。对吧？我们没有要求你们投票支持任何共和党政策，甚至没有要求你们赞同任何支出削减。我们只是想保持政府运转。

Well, the case that Republicans are making is, look, we have just offered a clean funding extension. Right? We're not asking for you to vote for any Republican policies. We're not even asking you to endorse any spending cuts. We just wanna keep the government open.

我们不会因为一项持续决议中超过一万亿美元的新支出而被挟持。

We are not gonna be held hostage for over a trillion dollars in new spending on a continuing resolution.

而像南达科他州参议员、多数党领袖约翰·图恩这样的共和党人，指责民主党试图以挟持政府为手段，实质上是为了获得对他们民主党政策的投票支持。

And Republicans, like senator John Thune of South Dakota, the majority leader, have accused Democrats of trying to hold the government hostage, essentially, in order to get the votes for their democratic policies.

众所周知，他们在拥有多数席位期间曾13次投票支持短期持续决议，当时拜登还在白宫。整整13次。

They, as you all know, have voted during the time they had the majority 13 different times and when Biden was in the White House on short term continuing resolutions. 13 different times.

那么，图恩在何种程度上是正确的呢？显然，像舒默参议员这样的人已经经历了一段转变历程，从三月份表示不会利用少数党权力对抗特朗普政府，到现在宣称实际上我们会这么做。这本质上是对特朗普政府议程的抗议。

And to what degree would Thune be correct in the sense that clearly someone like senator Schumer has gone on a journey here, right, from we will not use our power in the minority to take a stand against the Trump administration back in March to now saying, actually, we we will. That essentially, this is a protest against the Trump administration's agenda.

嗯，图恩提出的论点是，共和党人在参议院处于少数党地位时，曾多次投票支持这类纯粹的临时拨款法案，并未试图在这些法案中加入共和党的政策主张。

Well, Thune has made the case that Republicans, they were in the minority in the Senate, voted several times for these types of clean stop gap bills, that they did not try to add any Republican policies to these bills.

我认为变化在于特朗普总统入主白宫。这才是问题的核心。这是政治博弈，根本不存在任何实质性的理由导致政府必须停摆。

And I think what's changed is president Trump is in the White House. That's what this is about. This is politics, and there isn't any substantive reason why there ought to be a government shutdown.

归根结底，民主党人实际上在说：没错，但我们正身处前所未有的时代。鉴于白宫的所有作为，若想获得我们的投票，抱歉——你们必须与我们谈判，而这就是我们的要价。

This is Essentially, at the end of the day, Democrats are saying, sure, but we are in such uncharted times now. Given everything the White House is doing, if you want our votes, sorry. You're gonna have to negotiate with us, and this is our asking price.

政府停摆完全是可以避免的。这是他们必须做出的决定。如果政府真的停摆，责任全在参议院民主党人身上。

Shutdown. This is totally avoidable. It is a decision they're gonna have to make. And if the government shuts down, it is on the senate Democrats.

民主党和共和党之间的这场拉锯战已经迅速恶化，程度相当严重。

The back and forth between the Democrats and the Republicans here has devolved pretty quickly. Considerably.

是的。本周伊始，特朗普总统还在白宫会见国会领导人商讨拨款谈判。从各方面看，那似乎是场表面融洽但最终无果的会议。然而会议结束几小时后，特朗普总统就在社交媒体发布了相当粗俗且煽动性的视频。

Yeah. I mean, we started the week with president Trump meeting congressional leaders at the White House to discuss funding negotiations. By all accounts, it seemed to be a cordial but ultimately fruitless meeting. Mhmm. But hours after that meeting, president Trump posted a pretty crude and inflammatory video on social media.

听着，各位。这事没法粉饰了。现在没人再喜欢民主党了。

Look, guys. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Nobody likes Democrats anymore.

这是个深度伪造视频，是用AI生成的。

It's a deep fake video, so this was an AI generated video.

现在连黑人都不愿投票给我们了。拉丁裔也讨厌我们。

Not even black people wanna vote for us anymore. Even Latinos hate us.

视频里把哈基姆·杰弗里斯议员P上了卡通胡子和墨西哥宽檐帽，还让他全程静音。然后通过剪辑让舒默参议员的声音说出他从未说过的话，包括民主党想为非法移民支付医保费用——我得补充说，这完全是无稽之谈。

Depicting representative Hakim Jeffries wearing a cartoon mustache and a sombrero and has him mute in the video. And then it sort of edited senator Schumer's voice to say things that he did not say, including that Democrats want to fund health care for illegal immigrants, which is a pretty baseless claim, I should add.

他们不会发现我们只是

They won't realize we're just

一群觉醒的废物

a bunch of woke pieces of

你知道，至少在他们学会英语并意识到也讨厌我们之前还能瞒一阵子。

you know, at least for a while until they they learn English and they realize they hate us too.

而这一切的背景音乐都是墨西哥街头乐队演奏的。

And all of this is set to mariachi music in the background.

那段视频某种程度上是在说，现在不是谈判的时候。

That video kind of said, this is not the time for negotiation.

嗯，而且我们也没把你们当回事。

Well and we're not taking you seriously.

那么根据你刚才阐述的这些情况，如果政府停摆发生，会有什么后果，我们多快能感受到这些影响？

So given everything you've just laid out here, if a shutdown happens, what are the repercussions, and how quickly we're gonna feel them?

通常来说，政府停摆在政治上非常不受欢迎，因为它会以不同方式影响到很多美国人。对吧？联邦雇员会被强制休假，被要求继续工作，但在停摆结束前拿不到工资。国家公园之类的地方会关闭。但考虑到白宫处理此事的方式，这次停摆可能会进入未知领域。

Well, shutdowns are typically pretty politically unpopular, and that's because they hit a lot of Americans in different ways. Right? You have federal employees who are furloughed, who are asked to continue coming into work, but who won't receive pay until the shutdown is over. You have things like national parks closing down. But I think this potentially could be a shutdown in uncharted territory because of the way that the White House is approaching it.

特朗普总统及其高层官员，包括预算办公室主任拉斯·沃特，已表示他们想让这次停摆尽可能痛苦，并让民主党人承担由此带来的政治指责。特朗普总统今天早些时候在椭圆形办公室说，通过停摆，我们可以摆脱很多我们不想要的东西，而这些会是民主党的东西。迈克尔，我认为值得注意的是，对特朗普政府将停摆武器化的担忧，实际上是舒默领袖和民主党人最初在三月时说'好吧，我们继续为政府提供资金'的原因之一。但在接下来的几个月里，他们说，看吧。

President Trump and his top deputies, including Russ Vogt, who is the director of the budget office, have indicated that they want to make this as painful as possible and for Democrats to bear the political blame for that pain. President Trump earlier today in the Oval Office said that with a shutdown, quote, we can get rid of a lot of things that we didn't want and they'd be Democrat things. And, Michael, I think it's important to note that the fear of the Trump administration weaponizing a shutdown was actually one of the reasons why leader Schumer and democrats initially back in March said, okay. Let's continue to fund the government. But in the intervening months, they've said, look.

我们投票支持为政府提供资金。我们投票避免了政府停摆，而你们却继续做所有这些事情。你们继续撤销我们批准的资金。你们继续解雇联邦工作人员。无论我们是否投票支持为政府提供资金，你们都会这么做。

We voted to fund the government. We voted to avert a shutdown, and you continue doing all of this stuff anyway. You continued to rescind funding that we approved. You continued to lay off federal workers. You're going to do this whether or not we vote to fund the government.

没错。换句话说，民主党在政府停摆期间最担心的事情，在他们看来，在没有停摆的情况下反而发生了。

Right. In other words, what the Democrats feared most during a shutdown in their minds was happening in the absence of a shutdown.

正是如此。

That's right.

好的。总结一下，感觉民主党在说，上次吃了亏之后，现在采取原则性立场反对这届政府没什么可失去的，基本上就是把政府停摆当作一场非常公开的、他们认为有原则的、以政策为导向的抗议特朗普政府的行动。而共和党则回应说，祝你们好运。

Okay. So just to distill all this, it feels like Democrats are saying, having been burned the last time, there's nothing to lose from taking a principled stand against this administration and basically using the shutdown as a very public and, they'd argue, principled policy oriented act of protest against the Trump administration. And the Republicans, in turn, are saying good luck with that.

完全正确。但迈克尔，我认为你的描述也突显了为什么这次停摆感觉不可避免，以及为什么停摆可能会持续一段时间。

That's exactly right. But I also think, Michael, what you described also underscores why this could be one, why I think a shutdown feels inevitable here, and two, why a shutdown potentially could last a while.

现在会发生什么？我们是在周二早上和你交谈。接下来有一整天的程序要走，然后政府就会停摆。

What happens now? We're talking to you on Tuesday morning. There's a full day of logistics ahead of us that proceed to shut down.

两党的普通议员将会碰面。民主党将在午餐时间举行战略会议和信息沟通会议。共和党也会做同样的事情。这些午餐会的目的是确保每个人都达成共识。几小时后，参议院将进行两轮投票。

So the rank and file of both parties are going to meet. Democrats are going to meet for a strategy meeting, a messaging meeting over lunch. Republicans are going to do the same thing. The point of these luncheons are really to make sure that everyone is on the same page. And then a few hours after that, we are going to have a pair of votes on the senate floor.

一轮是对众议院已通过的共和党维持政府运作法案的投票，另一轮是对民主党提出的替代方案的投票。迈克尔，我们预计这两项投票都会失败。然后，当时钟从11:59走到午夜12点，政府就将停摆。

There's going to be one vote on the Republican bill that the house already passed to keep the government open. There's going to be one vote on what the democratic counteroffer is. And, Michael, we expect both of those to fail. And then by 11:59PM, as the clock moves from 11:59 to 12AM, the government will shut down.

好的。凯蒂，如果你不介意的话，我们会一整天烦人地跟着你在首都转悠。那我们现在就去参加这些午餐会吧。

Okay. Well, Katie, with your permission, we are going to annoyingly follow you around the capital all day. So let's head to these lunches.

就这么办。我们去那些紧闭房门的会议室外的走廊站着等吧。

Let's do it. Let's go stand in some hallways outside of closed door rooms.

还有电梯间。那么，这到底多大程度上关乎医疗问题？还是参议院民主党人终于在各种阵线上表态受够了？

And elevators. Okay. How much is it really about health care or finally the senate democrats saying enough on all kinds of fronts?

要解决医疗问题，唯一的方法就是表明立场。

Well, the only way to address the health care issue is to take a stand.

我关心我的选民，他们现在急需帮助。三年前我中风幸存下来。当乡村诊所和医院开始关闭，而你遭遇像我这样的紧急情况时，时间就是生命。如果无法到达医疗机构，你就会死。道理就是这么简单。

I care about my constituents and my constituents need help right now. I survived a stroke three years ago. When rural health clinics start closing and and hospitals close and you have an episode like I did, time is not on your side. If you can't get to a facility, you will die. It's plain and simple.

我的诉求很简单。我只是不希望保险费上涨——人们会说涨幅高达75%。我希望总统能遵守法律。

What I want is pretty simple. I just don't want insurance premiums to go up and people will say, 75%. I want the president to obey the law.

他们乐于帮助那些亿万富翁朋友。所有削减医疗开支的措施，都是为了给亿万富翁和大企业提供税收减免。现在是民主党人站出来说不的时候了。

They're willing to help out their billionaire buddies. All these cuts to health care were so that they could fund tax breaks for billionaires and billionaire corporations. It's time for Democrats to stand up and say no more.

那你能赶上午饭吗？好的。

Could you get to lunch then? Okay.

那我们能去健身房走走吗？

So can we walk in the gym?

那就谢谢了。共和党人

Thanks then. Republicans

大约会在同一时间离开。再会。再找几个共和党的声音加入讨论。我

will leave at the same time roughly. See you again. Get another couple of Republican voices and toss it in the mix. I

我不知道。我不能害怕我的民主党同僚们正在做的事，他们此刻伤害的正是他们声称想要帮助的人。我对他们的恳求是，嘿，我们一起解决这些问题，但别把所有这些美国劳动人民当作人质。

I don't know. I can't fear what my dem colleagues are doing by hurting the very people right now they say they want help. My plea to them is, like, hey. Let's let's work on this stuff, but don't take hostage all of these working people in America.

那是个很棒的法案，对吧？所以你

That's a beautiful bill. Right? So you

既已造成伤害，现在却说不该行动。

both inflicted, and now you're saying, don't act.

不要施加任何影响。我是说，不。听着。我们刚刚在那项法案中为农村医疗保健争取到了500亿美元的额外资金，这笔资金现在正从我的州开始发放。我最不愿看到的是这笔钱无法到位，那些补助金无法发放，医疗补助报销无法实现。

Don't inflict anything. Mean, no. Listen. We got $50,000,000,000 in additional funding for rural health care in that bill that starts from my state right now. What I do not want to see happen is that money not be available, those grants not go out, Medicaid reimbursements not happen.

如果政府关门，这些情况就会发生。我只是不明白为什么要这么做。

That's what's going happen if they shut down the government. I just don't know why you do that. Do

你对政府再次面临关门有任何同情吗？这对你来说是无稽之谈吗？高昂的医疗费用是个大问题。你不可能在今天和明天之间解决它。我是说，现实就是如此。

you have any sympathy for the government to find another shutdown? Is it rubbish to you? The high cost of health care is a tremendous issue. You're not gonna solve it between today and tomorrow. I mean, just reality.

你不可能在今天和明天之间解决它。好吧。凯蒂，你会如何描述与这些立法者互动中显现出的氛围？

You're not gonna fix it between today and tomorrow. Okay. Katie, how would you describe the emerging vibes from these interactions with the lawmakers?

我认为我们目前听到的与三月份民主党人进行同样对话时的情况大不相同。当时他们为午餐会纠结了很久，讨论到底该怎么做。而从我与你交谈过的大多数民主党人那里听到的是，他们决心坚定要打这场仗。嗯。

I think what we've heard so far is very different than what we heard back in March when Democrats were having the same conversation. There was a lot of agonizing going into these lunches over what exactly they should do. And I think you've heard most Democrats that you've spoken to, that I've spoken to be pretty steadfast in their resolve to pick this fight. Mhmm.

好的。凯蒂，感谢你今天下午的时间。你可以先离开了。好的。好的。

Alright. Well, Katie, thank you for all your time this afternoon. You're free to go. Yeah. Yeah.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是乔纳森·斯旺，《纽约时报》驻白宫记者。我对我们的工作持相当冷静的看法。作为记者，我们的职责是挖掘权贵不愿公开的信息，带您进入您原本无法涉足的场所，了解那些塑造国家命运的重大决策是如何做出的。然后，我们需要不厌其烦地反复核实消息源、查阅公开文件，确保信息准确无误。这不是能外包给人工智能的工作。

I'm Jonathan Swan. I'm a White House reporter for The New York Times. I have a pretty unsentimental view of what we do. Our job as reporters is to dig out information that powerful people don't want published, to take you into rooms that you would not otherwise have access to, to understand how some of the big decisions shaping our country are being made, And then painstakingly, to go back and check with sources, check with public documents, make sure the information is correct. This is not something you can outsource to AI.

没有机器人能走进战情室与人交谈，获取尚未公开的原始信息——这需要真人消息源，必须由记者来完成。从我这番长篇大论中您可能已经明白，我是在邀请您订阅《纽约时报》。独立新闻至关重要，而少了您的支持，我们根本无法完成使命。

There's no robot that can go and talk to someone who is in the situation room and find out what was really said in order to get actually original information that's not public, that requires human sources, and we actually need journalists to do that. So as you may have gathered from this long riff, I'm asking you to consider subscribing to The New York Times. Independent journalism is important, and without you, we simply can't do it.

现在快四点半了。我们刚冲进电梯，正赶往国会大厦二楼，因为舒默参议员的办公室通知我们，他将在5分10秒后接受采访，谈谈他面临的抉择及推动政府停摆的原因。这是少数党领袖办公室的安排。

It's almost 04:30. We're just hopped into an elevator, are headed down to the Second Floor of the capital because senator Schumer's office just let us know that he is gonna make himself available to us for about 05:10 minutes to talk about the decision he faces and why he is pursuing the shutdown. The minority leader's office.

往右转，直走到底你就知道了。

So you go right, walk straight down and you can know.

右边？谢谢。

Right? Thank you.

非常感谢。我们现在正走进少数党领袖办公室。

Thank you so much. And we're walking into the Minority Leader's Office.

嗨，亚历克斯告诉我们说没问题。

Hey there. Alex told us that the Sure.

我们的会议一个接一个。所以只有五分钟。

We are back to back on meetings. So just five minutes.

好的。嗯。七分钟。

K. Yeah. Seven minutes.

抱歉。实在太忙了。谢谢

I'm sorry. It's very busy. Thank

你为参议员抽出时间。

you for making time for senator.

好的。那么我们现在各自坐在哪里？时间不多了。

Okay. So where are we each sitting? We don't have much time.

那么让我们

So Let's

快点。我们离投票只剩四十分钟了。是的。这正是我想开始的地方。参议员，在政府停摆问题上你已判若两人。

go fast. So we are literally forty minutes away from the vote. Yes. And that's where I wanna start. Senator, you're a changed man when it comes to shutdowns.

对吧？三月份时，你是党内公开表态反对停摆的代表，说我们不会采取停摆措施，这不值得，风险太大。而现在，你却成了基于当前形势主张停摆的代言人。

Right? Back in March, you were the face of the party saying, we're not going to do a shutdown. It's not worth it. It's too dangerous. Now, you're the face of the party saying it's time to do a shutdown based on the situation you're in.

这是巨大的转变。而你的解释是这与《平价医疗法案》补贴有关，与三点有关。

That's a huge change. And the way you're describing it is it's about Affordable Care Act subsidies. It's about Three

从那时到现在发生了三件事。当时我们想给他们机会看看是否能与我们合作

things have happened between then and now. Then we wanted to give them a chance to see if they could work with

首先，

us. First,

特朗普在这期间彻底破坏了医疗体系。其次，我们有了准备时间。数月来，民主党人、众议院和参议院团结一致为此做准备。我们始终将医疗和费用问题作为核心议题，同时也让美国民众通过民调等渠道认识到事态的严重性。

Trump has decimated health care between then and now. Second, we had time to prepare. We've been preparing for this, democrats, house and senate, united, for months. We have focused on health care and costs as our issue, but we have also gotten the American people understand how bad this is if you look at the polling and other kinds of

我听到你说上次还没准备好，国家也没准备好面对这种对峙局面。

things. I heard you say you weren't ready and the country wasn't ready for this kind of standoff last time.

不。上次时间仓促，因为我们周六才得知他们将通过法案，而截止期是周二。第三件事是他们实施了资金扣押和撤销拨款。既然他们能单方面推翻预算协议，那达成预算程序还有什么意义？这三件事都是重大变化。

No. Didn't have much time last time because we only knew on Saturday that they were gonna pass their bill, and we only had till Tuesday. And the third thing that happened is they did impoundments, they did rescissions. And so what's the point of agreeing to a budget process if they then unilaterally can undo them? So those three things were very significant changes.

我认为三月份的决定是正确的，鉴于这些变化，现在的决定也是正确的。

And I think I did the right decision back in March, and this is the right decision now given those changes.

从某种意义上说，如果你是某种民主党人，你所描述的似乎有些狭隘。你在谈论程序、撤销。但让我说完，因为我的问题是，这里真正发生的是什么？民主党人，由你领导，你们是否在切断一个你们认为滥用权力的政府？

What you're describing in a sense, if you're a certain kind of Democrat, seems kind of narrow. You're talking about process, rescissions. But let me finish this because here's my question, is what is really happening here? The Democrats, you leading them, are you unplugging a government that you all find to be abusing its power?

听着，毫无疑问这个政府在滥用权力。我确实认为医疗保健和费用是人们最关心的问题。但如果我们能赢得辩论并在那里做出一些改变，它也会在其他领域阻止特朗普。这是因为

Look, there's no question this government is abusing its power. And I do believe that health care and costs are the number one thing bothering people. But I think if we're able to win the argument and get some changes there, it will thwart Trump in other areas as well It's because

通向其他领域的大门。没错。

door into the rest. Correct.

说得好。

Well put.

好的。如果你相信这一点，我需要向你指出《纽约时报》的这项民意调查，显示只有2%的美国人将医疗保健视为他们目前面临的首要问题。这意味着许多其他问题排在前面。你把很多鸡蛋放在那个篮子里作为你的前门。

Okay. If you believe that, I do need to point you to this polling the Times did that says two percent of Americans treat health care as the number one problem they face right now. That means many other problems are first. You're putting a lot of eggs in that basket as your front door.

我想提出两点。第一，那项民意调查显示生活成本是第一位的。当你分解生活成本时，医疗保健排在首位。明白吗？第二，因为从明天开始，数百万美国家庭将收到他们的费用上涨的通知，这一点将变得更加明显。

Would say make two points. One, that poll shows cost of living is number one. And when you break down the cost of living, healthcare is at the very top of the list. Okay? And second, it's now going to be much more apparent because starting tomorrow, millions and millions of American families are going to get notice that their increases are going up.

我们原以为每月大约400美元，这已经够离谱了。对一个中产家庭来说，一年就是5000美元。但凯撒的最新预估显示，费用将飙升至每月1400美元。而你们

We thought it was about $400 a month, which is too damn much already. That's $5,000 a year for a middle class family. But a new estimate by Kaiser says it's gonna go up $1,400 a month. But you guys

会让这成为民众的重大负担。

are gonna make it a very big issue for people.

等着看账单吧。人们会质问到底发生了什么？我们将持续不断地强调，这都是因为共和党摧毁了医保体系。所以我认为归根结底，医保本身已成为当前的核心议题，或许被欧洲事务和成本问题掩盖了些，但未来几周它会更加凸显。

Just get that bill. They're gonna say, what the hell happened? And we are gonna be there constantly, relentlessly saying, it's because the Republicans have decimated health care. So I think the bottom line is that health care itself is a very prominent issue now subsumed maybe in Europo and costs. But it's gonna be even more prominent in the next few weeks.

我们还要进一步推动。这是我们的职责所在。因为正如你所说，这是个突破口。

And we're gonna make it more. That's part of our job. Because this, as you said, is a door.

请允许我问个尖锐的问题，参议员。这对你个人而言有多大影响？我直说吧，你承受了巨大压力。你刚解释过为何反对

Let me ask you a provocative question, senator. How much for you is this at all personal? And let me just be very specific. You got a tremendous amount of blowback. You just argued why you didn't want the

没错。

Yeah.

上次政府停摆，但你遭到很多反对。是的。我早料到了。

Shutdown last time, but you got a lot of blowback. Yes. I knew.

我早知会如此，但当时那样做是正确的，而如今根据美国人民的需求，这样做也是正确的。我的职责就是解决人们的困扰与痛苦，这正是我们在此努力实现的。

I knew I would, But it was the right thing to do then, and now this is the right thing to do based on what the American people need. My job is to take people's problems and anguish and try to solve them. That's what we're trying to do here.

就个人层面而言，特朗普这段深度伪造视频，当它出现在你案头时——我知道你肯定看过。

On the personal front, Trump's video, this deepfake, when that comes across your desk, and I know you must have looked at it.

没错。但就在昨晚，我为此事已抗争多时。

Yeah. But just last night, I've been fighting for this for a long time.

这冒犯到你了吗？它让你明白了什么？

Does that offend you? And does that tell you what?

这让我明白共和党人并未认真对待此事。他们试图恐吓我们，但这吓不倒我。说真的，简直可笑。

It tells me that the Republicans are not taking this issue very seriously. It tells me that they're trying to intimidate us. This doesn't intimidate me. I mean, gee whiz.

但这真的激怒你了吗？没有。

But Did piss did it piss you off? No.

这让我更看不起特朗普了。他就像个五岁小孩。

It made me think even less of Trump. He's like a five year old.

我的最后一个问题是，过去这些争议总是围绕削减政府开支展开。而您可能将主持首次也是唯一一次因增加政府开支导致的停摆。

My last question is, in the past, these have always been about cutting government spending. You may oversee one of the first and only shutdowns to be about increasing government spending.

这是在纠正共和党人造成的一些恶果。但归根结底这是场豪赌。不过对我们更有利，因为我们正在切实帮助民众，民众也会支持我们。

It's undoing some of the bad things the Republicans have done. But I think that the bottom line is big gamble. But that makes it better for us because we're doing something to actually help people, and the people are going to rally behind us.

你确定吗？

You sure about that?

永远无法百分百确定，但这已是我们能得到的最佳机会了。

You never can be sure, but it's as good a shot as we're gonna get.

我只是觉得这句话很关键——『能得到的最佳机会』。这可能是你们仅有的筹码。

I just that's an important phrase. It's as good a shot as we're gonna get. This may be the only leverage you have.

谁知道呢，但确实是我们迄今为止最强的筹码，比三月份时的有力得多。

Well, who know it's certainly the best leverage we've had thus far. Much stronger leverage than it was in March.

是的。参议员？谢谢。

Yep. Senator? Thank you.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

谢谢。谢谢。你。再见。当然。

Thank you. Thank you. You. Bye bye. Of course.

谢谢各位。最后的提示音意味着投票即将开始。

Thanks, guys. That beeping at the end means that the voting is about to start.

总统先生。民主党领袖。我们达到法定人数了吗？

Mister president. Democrat leader. We in a quorum?

没有。所以大约在晚上8点

No. So at around 8PM

我提议对S.2882号法案的通过投票进行重新审议。

I move to proceed to the motion to reconsider the vote on passage of s two eight eight two.

民主党和共和党提出的支出法案本可以让政府继续获得资金

Both the Democratic and the Republican spending bills that would have kept the government funded

书记员将进行点名。

The clerk will call the roll.

双方都惨败收场。

Both went down in flames.

由于未达到60票门槛，经重新审议的法案未能通过。

The 60 vote threshold having not been received achieved, the bill upon reconsideration is not passed. And

因此今晚不再安排任何投票，政府停摆已不再是理论可能，而是板上钉钉的事实。鉴于当前局势，我们今天最后要连线的是卡尔·哈尔斯——他是《纽约时报》资深的国会首席记者，说实在的，在业内他被公认为国会记者团的元老级人物。

so now there are no more votes scheduled tonight, and a government shutdown is no longer theoretical. It is an absolute certainty. And because that is now the reality, there's one last person we wanna talk to today, and that is Carl Hulse. He is the Times most senior congressional correspondent. I think, honestly, around here, he's considered the dean of the congressional correspondents.

凭借数十载报道国会事务的经验，我们希望他能提供独到见解。测试，一、二、三。卡尔先生？您准备好了吗？

And with several decades of covering this institution under his belt, we wanted the benefit of his perspective on all this. Testing one, two, three. Carl? Sir. Are you ready?

我已准备就绪。

I am ready.

请移步到我们这个极度临时的演播室。卡尔，当我统计您报道国会的年限时，我写下了三十年。

Please make your way into our extremely improvised studio here. Carl, when I sat down to write how long you've been covering Congress, I wrote thirty years.

四十年。

Forty years.

好吧。所以我少算了十年？

Okay. So I was off by ten years?

是啊。是啊。克林顿和金里奇政府时期的停摆我都在场。

Yeah. Yeah. I was here for Clinton, Gingrich shutdowns.

那么你对今晚这里发生的事怎么看？

So how were you thinking about what just happened here tonight?

我认为民主党已经变了。部分原因很现实——他们失去了那些来自红色和紫色州的成员，过去这些人对政府停摆忧心忡忡。他们非常担心会失去那些州的选民。嗯，就是那些州的参议员们。

I think the Democrats are a different party. And part of the reason is just practical. They have lost the people who were in the states, the red and purple states, that were, in the past, anxious about shutdowns. They're really worried that they're going to turn off their voters there. Well, the people in those states The senators.

是的。那些民主党人已经不存在了。

Yes. Those Democrats are gone.

知道吗？妈妈，提醒我一下。我们刚才在谈论谁？

You know? Mom, remind me. Who are talking about?

蒙大拿州、印第安纳州、佛罗里达州、密苏里州、北达科他州。

Montana, Indiana, Florida, Missouri, North Dakota.

民主党那略带紫红的侧翼。

The kind of purplish red flank of the democratic party.

没错。这些席位已经易主。因此，参议院民主党党团的构成与过去不同了。

Right. Those seats have turned over. So the complexion, the makeup of the Democratic caucus in the senate is different than it has been in the past.

那些州的参议员们会容忍政府停摆吗？

Would those senators from those states Yes. Have tolerated the shutdown?

不会。他们会急得跳脚，对着查克·舒默大喊大叫：'我们不能这么做，你这是要毁了我们。'

No. They would have been freaking out. They'd be yelling at Chuck Schumer. We can't do this. You're gonna kill us.

我们没法竞选连任。现在这些人坐在这里，但他们属于不同的意识形态阵营。特朗普改变了他们多少？

We can't run for reelection. Well, now these people are sitting here, but they are a different ideological stripe. And how much did Trump change them?

我是说，显然政治版图已经改变，但在当前时刻，特朗普对那些甚至留任的人改变有多大？

I mean, obviously, the the political map changed, but how much in this moment has Trump changed those who even remain?

是啊。不。我今晚有个想法，民主党说特朗普无法无天。我为什么要

Yeah. No. I I had one tonight, the democrats say Trump is lawless. Why should I

遵守任何形式的

abide by any version of

他想做的任何事情。从实际支出的角度来看，既然他们反正会为所欲为，为什么还要同意支出协议呢？

Anything that he wants to do. And on a sort of a practical level from spending and appropriations, why go along with the spending deal when they're just gonna do whatever they want anyway?

没错。为什么不是我们？我们为什么不也开始打破规则呢？

Right. Why not us? Why don't we basically start breaking the rules too?

嗯，我不确定他们是否在破坏规则，但他们某种程度上打破了过去的惯例。公平地说，民主党一向对政府停摆极为谨慎，历来如此。共和党人则愿意这么做，因为他们认为这能迎合他们的基本盘。

Well, I don't know if they're they're not breaking the rules, but they're kind of breaking their past practice. Fair. They've always been super cautious, Democrats, about shutting down the government. Always. The Republicans were willing to do that because they thought it played with their base.

现在民主党正在审视他们的基本盘。他们的支持者在说，嘿，你们得站出来。

Now the Democrats are looking at their base. Their base is saying, hey. You need to stand up.

对。我们认为民主党，正如你暗示的那样，卡尔，是那个自诩为政府守护者的政党。

Right. We think of Democrats, and you're hinting at this, Carl, as the party that by its own lights safeguards the government.

他们看起来像是支持政府的。是的。但他们同时也在外面说，嘿，我们支持政府，但我们必须关闭政府来证明这一点。这说法可能很难让人信服。

They like they like government. Yeah. But they're also out there saying, hey. We we are for the government, but we have to shut down the government to show that we're for it. It can be a tough sell.

对吧？对吧？这就是他们必须面对的困境。

Right. Right? And this is what they're gonna have to contend with.

好吧，我们来谈谈这个说服的问题。我是说，我们采访了舒默参议员，显然他有个计划。民主党有个计划，要把政府停摆的责任推给总统和共和党，把他们描绘成不愿妥协的一方，并且他们会极力主张掌权者不关心你们的医保问题。他们显然想重新平衡国家的政治话语权。但要和特朗普总统的舆论影响力及他主导任何时刻话题的能力抗衡，感觉相当困难。

Well, let's talk about that sell. I mean, we spoke with senator Schumer, and clearly, he has a plan. Democrats have a plan to pin this shutdown on the president and Republicans, portray them as the party unwilling to meet them halfway, and they're gonna really put forth this case that the people in charge don't care about your health care. And they clearly would like to rebalance the national political discourse. But it feels hard to compete with president Trump's megaphone and his ability to dominate the message around any moment.

所以刚开始阶段，特朗普不就会说，让我们看看投票结果吧，是民主党人不愿意投票支持继续拨款。

And so won't the early stages of this be Trump saying, well, let's just look at the vote. And the vote was the Democrats wouldn't vote to continue spending.

是的。我认为对民主党来说很艰难，尤其是在开始阶段。确实如此。是他们没有提供足够的票数。而且特朗普不仅有个大喇叭，他还几乎每小时都在用。

Yeah. I think it's tough for the Democrats, especially at the start. I do. They're the ones who did not provide the votes. And Trump not only has a big megaphone, but he uses it, like, almost hourly.

没错。

Right.

对吧？所以他有个好机会可以抨击民主党。我觉得有趣的是听到共和党和特朗普现在谈论政府有多么不可或缺。对吧？他们正在极力强调政府的作用。

Right? So he's got a a good opportunity to beat on the Democrats. I do think it's kind of interesting in a way to hear the Republicans and Trump talk about how essential the government is now. Right? They're they're really building up the role of the government.

或许他们日后会为某些言论后悔，但此刻他们认为已将民主党逼入绝境。你们刚刚投票导致政府停摆，我们将解雇大批员工，这一切都是你们的错。嗯。但局势如何发展谁也说不准。

Maybe they may come to regret some of those statements, but they think they've got the Democrats right where they want them. You guys just voted to shut down the government. We're gonna lay off a bunch of people, and it's all gonna be your fault. Mhmm. But you never know how this is gonna play out.

真的难以预料。

You really don't.

我想请你思考下民主党在这场你最初谈到的变革中的处境。政党演变看似缓慢，但突变往往显而易见。共和党在特朗普时代的蜕变就是明证——他们已与从前判若两党。或许民主党也正迎来对抗特朗普所需的深刻持久变革，这将迫使他们采取前所未有的行动。

I wanna just have you meditate for a minute on where the Democrats are in this journey that you start talking about at the beginning. Parties seem to change slowly, but then all of a sudden, it's very clear that they've changed. That's been the story of the Republicans under Trump. They're not at all the party that they were before he came around. And maybe we're at the beginning of a meaningful and lasting change for the Democratic party where countering Trump means it's willing to do things it would have never done in the past.

我认为这预示着变革时刻的到来吗？

I think that's Does this foretell this moment I think change? That's

我确实这么看。特朗普的言行在某种程度上激化了民主党，他们认为必须采取非常手段阻止他。常规做法已行不通，选民也不会接受。查克·舒默就吸取过惨痛教训。

I I do. I think that, you know, they've been radicalized in some ways by Trump's actions, and they think that they have to do things that are extraordinary to stop him. They can't be doing business as usual. And their voters aren't gonna stand for that. Chuck Schumer learned a tough lesson.

是啊，今年三月那次。

Yeah, back in March.

这确实是场赌博——可能彻底失败，但若成功，既能证明他们有能力采取大胆行动对抗特朗普，又能获得选民支持而不失政治资本，甚至可能反占优势。

And I do think that this is a gamble because it could totally blow up in their face. But it could also reaffirm, if this works out for them, that they can take bold steps to fight Trump. And that their constituents will support them and that it won't cost them politically and it could actually advantage them.

他们将不再只是特朗普主义的旁观受害者。没错。

And they would no longer just be kind of the bystander victims of Trumpism. Right.

而且，你知道，他们在此做出了重大声明。不过我们得看看他们能坚持多久。过去他们很快就妥协了。

And, you know, they're making a big statement here. We'll see how long they stick with it, though. They've caved quickly in the past.

卡尔，谢谢你。真的很感激。

Carl, thank you. Really appreciate it.

感谢你来到美国国会大厦，我们工作的地方。这是我们的荣幸。

Thanks for coming here to the US Capitol where we do our work. Our pleasure.

结束了。现在是周三凌晨12:30，我们正走出几乎空无一人的国会大厦，除了少数保安和清洁人员——而从今天早上开始，他们也不再领到工资了。计划在未来几天内，将有超过40万联邦雇员被迫休假。对其中一些人来说，情况可能更糟，他们可能会被解雇。

Done. So it is now 12:30AM on Wednesday morning, and we're walking out of the capital, which is pretty much empty except for a handful of security guards and cleaning crews, which as of this morning are not being paid anymore. The plan is for more than 400,000 federal workers to be furloughed in the coming days. And for some of them, it may be worse than that. They may be fired.

这就是今早在这栋大楼里开始的政府停摆的真实故事。它将从这里开始，然后蔓延至整个华盛顿特区，乃至全国。晚安，先生。晚安。祝你晚上愉快。

And that's really the story of the shutdown that began here in this building this morning. It's gonna start here, and then it is gonna radiate out across the entire city of Washington DC and then the entire country. Good night, sir. Good night. Have a nice evening.

你也是。谢谢。祝你们顺利度过难关。

You too. Thank you. Good luck getting through this.

这不是第一次了。

Not the first time.

不是

Not

最后一次。我们马上回来。这是你改天还需要知道的其他内容。

the last time. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to another day.

今早能在此向这个再次被全世界称为战争部的高级领导层发表讲话，我深感振奋。

I'm thrilled to be here this morning to address the senior leadership of what is once again known around the world as the Department of War. In

周二，特朗普总统在对数百名国家最高级军事官员发表的不寻常讲话中表示，他已指示国防部长皮特·赫格萨布将美国城市用作美军的训练场地。

an unusual speech to hundreds of the country's most senior military officials on Tuesday, president Trump said that he had instructed his defense secretary, Pete Hegsab, to use American cities as a training ground for the US military.

我告诉皮特，我们应该用这些危险城市中的一些作为我们军队和国民警卫队的训练场，主要是军队。

And I told Pete, we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military.

这番意外言论为特朗普颇具争议的向全国各城市部署国民警卫队的决定提供了新的背景，目前包括洛杉矶、华盛顿特区和俄勒冈州波特兰市。活动期间，从全球召集而来的指挥官们，佩格塞斯还对军队中普遍存在的超重士兵和指挥官问题表示不满。

The surprise remark offers a new context for Trump's controversial decision to deploy the National Guard to cities across the country, including so far, Los Angeles, Washington DC, and Portland, Oregon. During the event, for which commanders had been summoned from around the world, Pegseth complained about overweight soldiers and commanders across the military.

看着战斗队形或任何队列中出现肥胖士兵的身影令人疲惫。同样，在五角大楼的走廊里、在全国乃至全球指挥岗位上看到肥胖的将军和海军将领更是完全不可接受的。这形象太糟糕了。

It's tiring to look out at combat formations or really any formation and see fat troops. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon and leading commands around the country and the world. It's a bad look.

他还警告官员们必须签署他的清除军队中DEI等理念的计划，否则就该辞职。

And he warned the officials that they must sign onto his agenda of ridding the military of philosophies like DEI or they should quit their jobs.

但如果我今天说的话让你

But if the words I'm speaking today are making your

本期节目由玛丽·威尔逊、卡洛斯·普列托、阿斯塔·查图维迪和埃里克·克鲁布克制作，瑞秋·奎斯特和莉兹·O·瓦伦编辑。音乐由马里昂·洛萨诺、丹·鲍威尔、艾丽西亚巴·埃蒂普和帕特·麦库斯克创作，工程由克里斯·伍德负责。特别感谢罗伯特·杰米森、迈克尔·戈尔德和安妮·卡尼。

Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Carlos Prieto, Asta Chaturvedi, and Eric Krubke. It was edited by Rachel Questor and Liz O. Valen. Contains music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Aliciaba Etyp, and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Robert Jemison, Michael Gold, and Annie Carney.

以上就是本期《每日播报》，我是迈克尔·比尔鲍。明天见。

That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bilbao. See you tomorrow.