克里斯蒂·诺姆被解职

我是凯瑟琳·本霍尔德，纽约时报每日通讯《世界》的主持人。

I'm Kathryn Benhold, host of The World, a daily newsletter from The New York Times.

我曾用二十年时间在十多个国家报道新闻，有一天我突然想到：我会想读什么样的通讯呢？

I spent twenty years reporting from more than a dozen countries, and it occurred to me one day, what kind of newsletter would I like to read?

我不住在美国。

I don't live in The US.

我想为全球读者打造一份专属内容。

I want something especially for a global audience.

世界正是如此。

The world is just that.

每个工作日早晨，我们会为您带来最重要的新闻、同事从现场发回的报道，以及一些附带视频的惊喜内容。

Each weekday morning, we bring you the biggest stories, dispatches from my colleagues on the ground, and a few surprises with video too.

《世界》通讯。

The World Newsletter.

阅读最新内容并前往 nytimes.com/theworld 订阅。

Read the latest and sign up at nytimes.com/theworld.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·巴贝罗。

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbero.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

周四下午，特朗普总统解雇了国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆，罢免了其第二任期核心议程所在机构的负责人。

On Thursday afternoon, President Trump fired his Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, ousting the leader of an agency at the center of his second term agenda.

今天，我的同事哈迈德·阿莱亚兹讲述了诺姆的故事，她竭尽全力讨好特朗普，最终却失去了他的信任。

Today, my colleague, Hamed Aleaziz, Angel Noem, who did everything possible to ingratiate herself with Trump, ended up losing his trust.

今天是3月6日，星期五。

It's Friday, March 6.

哈迈德，晚上好。

Hamed, good evening.

晚上好。

Good evening.

我想坦诚地说。

I just wanna be candid.

这原本不是我们为《每日新闻》周五节目安排的内容，但这一事件对该政府而言是颠覆性的进展。

This was not our plan for Friday's episode of The Daily, but it is a seismic development for this administration.

我们觉得必须报道这件事。

We felt we had to cover it.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

我的意思是，克里斯蒂·诺姆是特朗普总统在美国境内严厉打击移民政策的代言人。

I mean, Kristi Noem was the face of president Trump's aggressive crackdown on immigrants across The United States.

她毫不道歉，而特朗普总统在她过去六个月面临的所有争议后，一次又一次地支持她。

She was unapologetic, and president Trump backed her over and over again after all the controversies she faced over the last six months.

但随后，特朗普总统突然通知她，就在她即将对执法部门人员发表演讲前几分钟，她被解雇了。

And then really abruptly, president Trump notifies her just, you know, moments before she gives a speech to folks on law enforcement, she's fired.

对。

Right.

而这件事感觉如此重大，还有另一个原因：特朗普第二任期内阁的整个前提就是，理论上这些人是无法被解雇的。

And the other reason why this felt so enormous is that the entire premise of the second term Trump cabinet was that it was kind of unfireable in theory.

在特朗普的第一任期内，他频繁解雇人员，因为他当初挑选的人选全都不对。

In Trump's first term, he fired people left and right because he had picked in his mind all the wrong people.

但第二任期是一次巨大的修正，他只挑选那些在意识形态上与他一致、不会反对、会完全按他意愿行事的内阁成员。

But the second term was this huge corrective, and he was only gonna pick ideologically aligned cabinet members who were not gonna push back, who were gonna do exactly what he wanted.

即使他们陷入相当严重的麻烦，他也不会解雇他们。

And he wouldn't fire people even if they got into pretty serious trouble.

直到诺姆出现，她成为本届任期内首位被解雇的内阁部长。

That was really the case until Noem, who becomes the very first cabinet secretary to be fired in the term.

是的。

Yeah.

很明显，特朗普试图营造一种稳定、一切尽在掌控的表象。

I mean, it became pretty clear that Trump was trying to give off this appearance of stability and the fact that they had everything under control.

而克里斯蒂·诺姆确实是他的内阁成员中最忠诚的一位。

And Kristi Noem really was among the most loyal of his cabinet secretaries.

我的意思是，她真的把特朗普总统放在了自己所有行动的中心。

I mean, she really put president Trump at the center of whatever she did.

她总是谈论特朗普总统，以及兑现特朗普总统的承诺。

She was always talking about president Trump and fulfilling president Trump's promises.

最终，这几乎让她显得对被解雇免疫。

And, ultimately, it felt like that almost made her somewhat invincible to a firing.

没错。

Right.

直到现在。

Until now.

所以让我们讲讲这个故事：尽管她月复一月地做着看似特朗普希望她做的事，一路都在颂扬特朗普，她为何最终不再不可撼动。

So let's tell the story of how she became no longer invincible despite doing what seemed month after month, like, what it was Trump wanted her to do and celebrating Trump the whole way.

你知道，特朗普选择她其实令人惊讶。

You know, it was surprising that president Trump selected her.

国土安全部长这个职位，实际上是他最重要承诺的核心职位。

The DHS secretary role really is perhaps the biggest role for his biggest promise.

对吧？

Right?

大规模驱逐的承诺。

The promise of mass deportations.

你需要一个合适的人来执行这项雄心勃勃且困难重重的行动。

You need somebody in place to carry through a really ambitious and difficult operation.

选择克里斯蒂·诺姆令人惊讶，因为在国家层面，她主要因撰写一本回忆录而为人所知，她在书中承认自己射杀了自己认为行为不端的狗。

And the selection of Kristi Noem was a surprise because on the national level, she was primarily known for writing a memoir in which she admitted to shooting her own dog that she felt like was misbehaving.

对。

Right.

当然，她曾是南达科他州的州长。

And, of course, she was the governor of South Dakota.

她也曾经是国会议员。

She'd been a congresswoman as well.

但特朗普总统决定她是最适合领导这个庞大机构的人选，很大程度上将她从政治边缘推到了2025年最重大新闻的中心。

But president Trump, he decides that she is the right person to run this massive agency, and in many ways, takes her from political irrelevance to the biggest story of 2025.

首先，我要感谢萨尔瓦多及其总统与美国的合作，

And first of all, I wanna thank El Salvador and their president for their partnership with The United States Of America to

她立刻接受了这种在外露面的做法。

And right away, she embraces this idea of being out there.

今天在这里的西卡特设施参观。

Here at Seacat today and, visiting this facility.

前往萨尔瓦多，在那里她拍摄了一段在赤膊囚犯前的宣传视频。

Going to El Salvador where, you know, she's filming a spot in front of shirtless prisoners.

首先，不要非法进入我们的国家。

First of all, do not come to our country illegally.

你们将被遣返并受到起诉。

You will be removed and you will be prosecuted.

起诉。

Prosecuted.

对非法移民说，如果被我们抓到，你们就会被送到这里。

Saying to undocumented immigrants that you could end up here if we catch you.

但要知道，这个设施是我们用来应对那些对美国人民犯罪的人的工具之一。

But know that this facility is one of the tools in our toolkit that we will use if you commit crimes against the American people.

我们应当指出，她站在一个我们曾报道过的监狱前，那里的人——包括那些曾在美国的人——声称遭受过酷刑和性虐待。

And we should say, she's standing in front of a prison that we've reported on where people, including those who were in The United States, claimed to have been tortured and sexually abused.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这正好发生在去年春天，当时特朗普政府正在全国范围内对移民社区大力施压。

And this comes right at that time last spring as the Trump administration is really unleashing DHS on immigrant communities across this country.

还有克里斯蒂·诺姆。

There's Kristi Noem.

今年春天你人在纽约市。

You're in New York City this spring.

我们正在把那些渣滓从街上清除掉。

We are getting the dirtbags off these streets.

她站在这些移民与海关执法局官员旁边，穿着战术型ICE背心。

She's standing alongside these ICE officers, and she's got the tactical ICE vest on.

她有时还手持武器。

She's, at times, holding weaponry.

雨果，你该走了。

Hugo, you're gonna go.

你会回家，然后被起诉。

You're gonna go home, and you're gonna get prosecuted.

你知道，她并不是一名执法官员。

You know, she is not a law enforcement officer.

她走进人们被逮捕的家中，仿佛自己是行动的一部分。

Going inside to the homes where people are being arrested as if she's part of the operation.

你知道我们为什么来这里吗

Do you know why we're here

今天？

today?

对。

Right.

她希望人们知道，她是这些执法行动的先锋。

She wants it to be known that she is at the tip of the spear of these enforcement actions.

她身处前线。

She's on the front line.

她似乎非常自豪地与他们划上了等号。

She is becoming, it seems like quite proudly, synonymous with them.

是的。

Yeah.

感觉她希望成为这个故事的中心。

It felt like she wanted to be at the center of this story.

你知道，她希望每天都在福克斯新闻和这些保守派媒体上出现，传播‘我才是将兑现特朗普最大承诺的人’这一信息。

You know, she wanted to be on Fox News, on these conservative news outlets day after day spreading this message that I'm the one that's gonna carry through president Trump's biggest promise.

但事实上，她试图将自己置于特朗普政府驱逐行动的中心，最终却走上了一条令她深感困扰的道路。

But really, her effort to put herself at the center of the Trump administration's deportation campaign put her down a path that ultimately haunted her.

而真正你能指出的是，她出现在这些广告中。

And really, the thing that you can point to is that she stars in these ads.

我是克里斯蒂·诺姆。

I'm Kristi Noem.

从驯服西部的牛仔，到建设我们城市的巨头。

From the cowboys who tamed the West to the titans who built our cities.

其中她骑在马背上。

In which she's riding on horseback.

她戴着一顶牛仔帽。

She's wearing a cowboy hat.

美国一直奖励远见与毅力。

America has always rewarded vision and grit.

我们的伟大吸引着人们前来，寻求繁荣的机会。

Our greatness calls people to us for a chance to prosper.

她几乎是在发表一篇关于美国伟大的演讲。

She's almost giving a speech about the greatness of America.

任何寻求自由的人都可以在这里找到家园，但这种自由是宝贵的，我们会坚决捍卫它。

Anyone who searches for freedom can always find a home here, but that freedom's a precious thing, and we defend it vigorously.

然后警告那些非法居留在国内的人。

And then warning individuals who are in the country illegally.

你如果非法越境，我们一定会找到你。

You cross the border illegally, we'll find you.

国土安全部会来找到他们。

That DHS will come and find them.

但如果你合法来到这里，你的美国梦可以像这些无尽的广阔天地一样宏大。

But if you come here the right way, your American dream can be as big as these endless guys.

从特朗普总统和我本人来说，欢迎回家。

From president Trump and me, welcome home.

这还不只是那则广告。

And it's not just that ad.

如果你非法居留，下一个就是你。

If you are here illegally, you're next.

你

You are

非法居留。

here illegally.

也是。

As well.

特朗普总统对那些非法居留在我们国家的人有一个明确的信息。

President Trump has a clear message for those that are in our country illegally.

现在就离开。

Leave now.

现在就离开。

Leave now.

在特朗普总统任下

Under president

她正在鼓励移民自我遣返。

Where she's encouraging immigrants to self deport.

选择权在你手中。

The choice is yours.

美国欢迎那些尊重我们法律的人，因为一个强大的国家才是一个安全的国家。

America welcomes those who respect our laws because a strong nation is a safe nation.

这些在电视上播放的广告，无处不在。

And these ads which are playing on TV, they're everywhere.

ProPublica 去年底报道称，这些广告耗资美国纳税人2亿美元。

ProPublica late last year reports that they cost the American taxpayer $200,000,000.

我认为这确实开始引起一些国会议员和人士的担忧，或许她担任国土安全部长的整个努力，只是为了推进她自己的政治野心。

I think that really started to concern some lawmakers and some folks that perhaps this whole effort of her being DHS secretary was really just to further her own political ambitions.

当然，在此期间，她所监管的国土安全部特工的执法行动本身也变得极具分裂性。

And, of course, as that's happening, the enforcement actions of the agents she's overseeing at the Department of Homeland Security become themselves deeply polarizing.

这如何开始影响将来会困扰她的那些事情？

How does that start to factor into what will come to haunt her?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，在过去半年里，你看到国土安全部的特工在家得宝停车场、汽车清洗店追捕人们，指控涉及种族定性，美国公民也被卷入其中，甚至在整个糟糕的影像中，就连特朗普的一些支持者，包括乔·罗根，都一再指出，特朗普依然支持她。

You know, you see over the last half year, DHS agents chasing people in Home Depot parking lots, in car washes, allegations of racial profiling, US citizens swept up, and even all throughout this bad imagery that even some of the president Trump's supporters, including Joe Rogan, call out repeatedly, Trump stands by her.

对。

Right.

然后你来到明尼阿波利斯。

And then you get to Minneapolis.

明尼阿波利斯才是真正开始让她陷入困境的地方。

And Minneapolis really is where things start to fall apart for her.

那里发生了亚历克斯·斯皮德里的枪击事件，特工将他扑倒在地，然后开枪射击。

There's the shooting of Alex Spready, in which agents tackle him to the ground and then shoot him.

大家晚上好。

Good evening, everyone.

感谢大家的到来。

Thank you for being here.

我需要说明两件不同的事情

There are two different things that I

克里斯蒂·诺姆在枪击事件发生数小时后

Kristi Noem, hours after the shooting

我想谈谈今天我们明尼阿波利斯街头发生的悲剧事件。

do wanna address the tragic situation that we saw in Minneapolis today that unfolded on the streets.

这

It

她所说的比该机构自己的声明还要进一步，而后者已经引发了一些质疑。

occurred She goes further than even the agency had in their own statement, which had had raised some questions.

这名携带武器和弹药、试图阻止联邦执法人员行动的人，实施了国内恐怖主义行为。

This individual who came with weapons and ammunition to stop a law enforcement operation of federal law enforcement officers committed an act of domestic terrorism.

这就是事实。

That's the facts.

她开始说，你知道，他是个国内恐怖分子。

She starts saying that, you know, he's a domestic terrorist.

他在现场袭击了执法人员。

He attacked the officers at the scene.

说了些后来被证明不属实的话。

Says things that turned out not to be true.

没错。

Exactly.

而且，在很多方面，人们质疑她的可信度，对吧。

And, you know, in many ways, people question her credibility Right.

就在明尼阿波利斯局势岌岌可危的关键时刻，两名美国公民已被枪杀，抗议活动持续爆发，数百名国土安全部特工已部署在明尼阿波利斯街头。

At this really key juncture where Minneapolis is teetering, where two American citizens at this point have been shot dead, protests are raging, There are hundreds of DHS agents on the streets of Minneapolis.

这是一个关键时刻，而诺姆却无法妥善应对，反而说了些当时明显不准确的话。

It's a critical moment, and Noem is just not able to handle it without saying something that is pretty clearly inaccurate at that time.

而特朗普总统并没有解雇她。

And president Trump doesn't fire her.

他也没有把她撤换。

He doesn't get rid of her.

但他让汤姆·霍曼接替她，这本身就是一种承认，表明她处理得并不好。

But it is an acknowledgment that she did not handle it well when he brings in Tom Homan Right.

他的职责是接管明尼阿波利斯，并命令他平息局势。

His borders are to take over Minneapolis and and tells him to calm the situation down.

这种情况从未发生过：国土安全部部长、负责移民事务的负责人，被边缘化，由白宫官员取而代之，并被告知：你不再需要处理这件事了。

That is something that never happens, where a DHS secretary, the person in charge of these immigration operations, is put to the side for a White House official and told, you don't need to take care of this anymore.

对。

Right.

她被层层干预，而作为内阁部长，本不该在你和总统之间存在任何中间层级。

She's getting layered, which when you're a cabinet secretary, there really shouldn't be any layers between you and the president.

随后，正如我所记得的，由于《华尔街日报》我们的同事的报道，诺姆部长的处境变得更糟。

And then things get worse for secretary Noem courtesy, as I recall it, of our colleagues at The Wall Street Journal.

是的。

Yeah.

就在汤姆·霍曼开始平息明尼阿波利斯局势之际，这份来自《华尔街日报》的报道突然曝光，揭露了克里斯蒂·诺姆与她的高级顾问科里·莱万多夫斯基之间的一些不光彩细节——莱万多夫斯基是前特朗普竞选官员，本身就是一个颇具争议的人物。

Really, just as Tom Homan is starting to quiet the situation down in Minneapolis, this story lands from the journal, which gets into some of the sordid details of Kristi Noem and her relationship to her senior adviser, Corey Lewandowski, a former Trump campaign official, a controversial figure in his own right.

莱万多夫斯基是一名特别政府雇员，是一个神出鬼没、始终跟在克里斯蒂·诺姆身边的人物。

And Lewandowski is a special government employee, and he's this kind of shadowy figure who is everywhere with Kristi Noem.

他一直在责骂移民与海关执法局官员，说他们逮捕和遣返的力度不够。

He is the person who is yelling at ICE officials for not doing enough on arrests and deportations.

在很大程度上，他是国土安全部、尤其是移民与海关执法局中一个极具影响力的人物。

He is really, in many ways, this incredibly powerful figure across DHS, particular, at ICE.

但归根结底，他并不是国土安全部的雇员。

And, ultimately, again, he is not a DHS employee.

他是一名特别政府雇员，就像去年埃隆·马斯克开始参与Dogecoin项目时那样。

He is a special government employee just like Elon Musk was when he started Doge last year.

所以，理论上，他不应该拥有这家媒体所报道的、他在国土安全部内部所拥有的那种权力。

So he really, in theory, should not have the authority that this journal reporting suggests that he has inside the Department of Homeland Security.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他实际上和诺姆一起管理着这个机构，拥有无限权力，可以随意解雇飞行员、要求进行测谎检查。

And he's essentially running this agency alongside Noem, having unlimited power to do whatever they wanted to do, firing pilots, issuing polygraphs.

哇。

Wow.

到处对人进行测谎，这让许多正在努力完成艰巨的遣返和逮捕任务的人感到非常担忧。

The idea of polygraphing people left and right really concerns a lot of people who are working pretty hard to carry through on this really difficult task of deportations and and arrests.

这个故事真正触及了该机构高层所面临的戏剧性事件和局势核心。

So this story really got the heart of the kind of drama and the the situation at the top of the agency.

我认为，关键的是，它还强烈暗示了刘和诺姆——两人均已婚——之间存在婚外情，考虑到他们实际上共同管理该机构，这显然带来了重大问题。

And I think, crucially, also really kind of heavily insinuated that Lewandowski and Noem, both of whom are married, were having an affair, which obviously has some major complications given the fact that they were essentially running the agency together.

然而，尽管有这些媒体报道，特朗普却并未采取行动。

And yet despite this journal reporting, Trump does not act.

他没有。

He doesn't.

但诺姆最终不得不前往国会参加两场听证会，国会议员在会上提出了所有这些指控和丑闻，而她的回应、反应以及处理这一情况的方式令人关注。

But Noem ultimately has to go to Capitol Hill for a pair of hearings in which congressional officials bring up all of these allegations, all of these exploits, and her response, her reaction, and how she handled that situation.

这是一场灾难，彻底决定了他们的命运。

It was a disaster and really sealed their fate.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是司法部长索勒斯伯格。

This is AG Solesberger.

我是《纽约时报》的出版人。

I'm the publisher of The New York Times.

我负责我们的新闻业务和商业运营。

I oversee our news operations and our business.

但我也曾是一名记者，目睹了近年来我们这个行业不断萎缩，感到非常担忧。

But I'm also a former reporter who has watched with a lot of alarm as our profession has shrunk and shrunk in recent years.

通常，在这些广告中，我们会谈论订阅《纽约时报》的重要性。

Normally, in these ads, we talk about the importance of subscribing to The Times.

今天，我想传达一个不同的信息。

I'm here today with a different message.

我鼓励你们支持任何致力于原创报道的新闻机构。

I'm encouraging you to support any news organization that's dedicated to original reporting.

如果是你当地的报纸，那就太好了。

If that's your local newspaper, terrific.

尤其是地方报纸，特别需要你的支持。

Local newspapers in particular need your support.

如果是其他全国性报纸，那也很好。

If that's another national newspaper, that's great too.

如果是《纽约时报》，我们会用这笔钱派遣记者去发掘事实和背景信息，这些是你从人工智能那里永远得不到的。

And if it's The New York Times, we'll use that money to send reporters out to find the facts and context that you'll never get from AI.

就这样。

That's it.

不是要你点击任何链接。

Not asking you to click on any link.

只是订阅一家有真实记者进行第一手事实报道的新闻机构。

Just subscribe to a real news organization with real journalists doing firsthand fact based reporting.

如果你已经这么做了，谢谢。

And if you already do, thank you.

显然，这次听证会引起了广泛关注。

Obviously, there's a lot of interest in this hearing.

感谢秘书长的到来。

I thank the secretary for coming.

所以，哈迈德，跟我们说说克里斯蒂·诺姆在国会作证时那场灾难性的表现吧，这最终成了她的滑铁卢。

So, Hamed, tell us about this disastrous testimony that Kristi Noem delivers before congress that really does become her undoing.

是的。

Yeah.

这感觉像是过去一年所有负面事件的总爆发，她所有的潜在尴尬都集中呈现在了国会山。

It feels like the culmination of everything that's happened over this past year where all of her potential embarrassments come to Capitol Hill.

诺姆秘书长，很高兴见到您，尽管您上任已经十三个月了，而且自两名美国公民在明尼阿波利斯被枪杀以来，也已经过去五个多星期了。

Secretary Noem, we're glad to meet you even though it's been thirteen months since you took office and more than five weeks since two American citizens were shot dead in Minneapolis.

民主党人表现得极为强硬。

And Democrats are incredibly aggressive.

您能否解释一下，为什么您要把那些正在抗议贵机构行为、最终因此丧生的受害者称为这样的人？

Can you explain why you decided to brand these victims who were out protesting the activities of your agency and were killed as a result of it?

你怎么会认为称他们为国内恐怖分子能平息局势呢？

How did you think that calling them domestic terrorists was somehow going to calm the situation?

提起她在明尼阿波利斯的所有过往言论。

Bringing up all of her previous comments in Minneapolis.

我们持续提供信息。

We continue to deliver information.

承认自己错了有那么难吗？

Is it so hard to say you were wrong?

而且更进一步，他们还变得非常私人化。

And even beyond that, they get quite personal.

她与国会议员卡米勒·吉德·多夫有一些非常引人注目的交锋。

There are some pretty notable exchanges with congresswoman, Kamil Gird Dove.

所以诺姆秘书，在您担任国土安全部部长期间，是否曾与科里·莱万多夫斯基发生过性关系？

So secretary Noem, at any time during your tenure as director of Department of Homeland Security, have you had sexual relations with Corey Lewandowski?

有人直接问她与莱万多夫斯基的关系。

Who really directly asks her about her relationship with Lewandowski.

主席先生，我感到震惊，我们今天竟然在这个委员会里兜售小报垃圾。

Mister chairman, I am shocked that we're going down and peddling tabloid garbage in this committee today.

而她并没有真正回答这个问题。

And she doesn't really answer the question.

所以我想说的是，你应该能够

So what I would say you be able

回答这个问题。

to answer the question.

我们在国土安全部

We do at the Department of Homeland

每一天都毫不犹豫地保护安全。

Security every single And without any hesitation.

如果有人被要求做出决策。

Single day is to protect If someone is asked to make it decisions.

你或任何联邦官员与下属发生关系。

You or any federal official is sleeping with their subordinate.

这应该是

That should

最简单的

be the

你理应回答这个问题。

easiest you should be wanting to answer that question.

这完全是胡说八道。

It's garbage.

因为这并不是

Because it is not

但这些听证会真正的意外在于，像汤姆·蒂利斯和路易斯安那州的肯尼迪参议员这样的共和党人，开始对克里斯蒂·诺姆提出非常尖锐的质询。

But the real surprise with these hearings was that Republicans like Tom Tillis, like senator Kennedy from Louisiana, they're starting to point some really intense questioning of Kristi Noem.

我不知道我们是否有时间让你回应，因为我现在是在给你做绩效评估。

I don't know that we'll have time for you to respond because I'm giving you a performance evaluation here.

我不需要你回应。

I'm not looking for a response.

他非常沮丧和愤怒。

He is incredibly frustrated and angry.

我们看到的是，一些被拘留的人后来被证实是美国公民。

What we've seen is innocent people getting detained that turn out are American citizens.

他感到毫无束缚。

He feels unencumbered.

我们只需要数字。

We just want numbers.

我们希望每天一千人、六千人、九千人，因为数字很重要。

We want a thousand a day, 6,000 a day, 9,000 a day because numbers matter.

对吧？

Right?

不对。

No.

这些数字并不重要。

They don't matter.

质量很重要。

Quality matters.

不是数量。

Not quantity.

质量。

Quality.

他几乎要从对她在家园安全部任职的极度失望中解脱出来了。

He's almost getting off this really intense disappointment of her tenure at the Department of Homeland Security.

在你的领导下，我们看到的是一场灾难，诺姆女士。

What we've seen is a disaster under your leadership, miss Noem.

一场灾难。

A disaster.

是的。

Right.

甚至是厌恶。

Even disgust.

是的

Yeah.

他只是非常生气。

He is just pissed off.

谢谢您，主席先生。

Thank you, mister chairman.

然后

And then

谢谢您，秘书长，莅临此处。

Thank you, madam secretary, for being here.

现在登场的是肯尼迪，一位坚定支持特朗普政府的人。

Here comes Kennedy, somebody who is a staunch supporter of the Trump administration.

在南部边境适当审查人员并不是种族主义，对吧？

Properly vetting people at the Southern border is not racist, is it?

对。

No.

一个你本以为会提出更简单问题的人。

Somebody who you would expect easier questions to come from.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

您能为记录回答一下吗？

Could you answer for the record?

不能。

No.

这并不属于种族歧视。

It is not racist.

但就在他开始发言时

But right as he starts going

我相信贵部门有一项政策，要求您批准所有合同。

I believe you have a policy, madam secretary, that that you have to approve all contracts at your department.

她正在深入追问她部门内发生的事情。

She is really getting into detailed questions about what was happening at her department.

您如何调和您对浪费的关切——我也认同这一点——

How do you square that concern for waste, which I share Mhmm.

与您花费了两亿两千万美元投放以您为主角的电视广告这一事实呢？

With the fact that you have spent $220,000,000 running television advertisements that feature you prominently.

他正在质询她关于这则广告活动以及其中花费的巨额资金。

He is questioning her about this ad campaign and all the money that's spent there.

所以我们走完了法律程序。

So we went through the legal processes.

程序是否合规？

Did it correct?

他是否与行政管理和预算局合作过？

Did he work with OMB?

是的。

Yes.

他确实这么做了？

He did?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

并且在追问她一件事：总统是否批准了这种巨额支出。

And pushing her on One thing whether or not the president was approving this type of massive expenditure.

我的意思是，这让我觉得总统陷入了极其尴尬的境地。

I mean, to me, it puts the president in a terribly awkward spot.

而且，而且，我只是说，我不是在说你说了假话。

And it it it and I just I'm not saying you're not telling the truth.

只是我很难相信，了解总统的为人，他会同意这件事。

It's just hard for me to believe knowing the president that he would have agreed to that.

而且，再次强调，这是诺姆的一个关键时刻，就像明尼阿波利斯那样，她自己挖了坑，承认总统确实批准了这项支出。

And, again, this is a moment where Noem, somewhat like Minneapolis, starts to dig her own grave by saying, yes, the president did approve this.

还有，参议员，我认为有助于了解的一点是，这些沟通措施的效果如何。

And one thing, senator, I think would be helpful to know is how effective that communications has been.

嗯，它们在提升你的知名度方面是有效的。

That Well, they were effective in your name recognition.

我的意思是，我我我

I mean, I I I

最终，他的提问非常有效，因为特朗普总统得知了她的言论，并被路透社正式询问，是否真的如克里斯蒂·诺姆所说批准了这笔开支。

And, ultimately, his line of questioning is really quite effective because president Trump gets wind of her comment and is asked on the record by Reuters whether or not he did in fact approve this spending like Kristi Noem said he did.

他说，没有。

And he says, no.

我没有批准那笔开支。

I didn't approve that.

肯尼迪本人表示，当他与特朗普总统交谈时，总统——我相信他说过——气得像只黄蜂。

Kennedy himself says that, when he spoke with president Trump, he was I believe he said mad as a hornet.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，总统实际上是在称他的国土安全部长在撒谎。

I mean, basically, the president is calling his DHS secretary a liar.

是的。

Yeah.

几个小时后，她就被解除了部长职务，而特朗普宣布任命她担任一个此前根本不存在的职位——‘美国盾牌特别大使’，这个职位闻所未闻，一公布就遭到广泛嘲讽。

And a few hours later, she's fired from her job as secretary, and Trump announces that he's given her this previously nonexistent job as the special envoy for the shield of America's, a job that nobody had ever heard of before and something that is really mocked as it gets announced.

你知道，这一连串事件让我觉得，尽管特朗普对诺姆的不满可能早已因各种原因积累，但最终导致她丢掉职位的，还是她为了替自己辩护，而引用特朗普的名字，去支持那些两党都认为浪费且自我宣传的2亿美元广告。

You know, that sequence of events certainly suggests to me that while Trump's dismay with Noem has perhaps been building for some time for a variety of reasons, In the end, what really costs her her job was invoking Trump's name as she sought to defend something that people in both parties regard as kinda wasteful and self promotional, these $200,000,000 ads.

我不禁想，你是否也这么认为？你实际上是违背了总统的黄金法则：别把我推下水。

And I wonder if that's the way you see it, that you kinda violated the president's golden rule, which is don't throw me under the bus.

对。

Yeah.

正是在肯尼迪质问诺姆、追问特朗普对此事知情多少的时刻，诺姆将特朗普与这种浪费性支出联系在了一起。

It's really this moment where Kennedy is asking this question of Noem and what Trump knew, where Noem connects Trump to this idea of wasteful spending.

他不想被牵扯进来，也不愿成为她巨额广告预算的借口和挡箭牌。

He doesn't wanna be connected to this, and he doesn't wanna be used as the justification and the excuse for this massive amount of money spent on her ad campaign.

这种激进的移民政策最终并不是导致克里斯蒂·诺姆被解职的原因。

This aggressive immigration approach is ultimately not what got Kristi Noem fired.

真正的原因是那些将她与支出问题联系起来的报道，以及她在国会的表现。

It's really what happened with, some of these stories connecting her to the spending and her performance on the hill.

我的意思是，总统希望人们在电视上表现得体。

I mean, the president wants people to be good on TV.

而在那一刻，这被普遍视为一种尴尬和笑话。

And in this moment, it was, I think, really seen as an embarrassment and a joke.

我认为总统不想再忍受这种情况了。

I don't think president Trump wanted to deal with that any longer.

如果这并不是国土安全部及其移民政策的重大转向，那我们应该谈谈特朗普挑选来接替诺姆、主管该部门的人——俄克拉荷马州参议员马克韦恩·穆林。

Well, if this is not a larger change of course for the Department of Homeland Security and its approach to immigration, I think we should talk about the person Trump has picked to replace Noem and run the department, senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma.

关于他，我们该了解些什么？他是否会基本延续诺姆的现有政策，只是在国会作证时更加谨慎一些？

What should we know about him, and how much is he basically just gonna keep the existing approach that Noem did with perhaps more restraint in his testimony before congress.

穆林和许多共和党政治人物一样。

Mullin is somebody like many Republican politicians.

他支持总统特朗普的遣返议程。

He is somebody who supports president Trump's deportation agenda.

他一直积极支持更激进的国土安全部政策。

He has been very vocal about backing the ideas of a more aggressive DHS.

但我觉得，更关键的是，他是个身材高大的前综合格斗选手。

But I think, you know, somewhat more to the point, he's this big guy, an ex MMA fighter.

对许多美国人来说，他们第一次了解他，是因为一段他挑战卡车司机工会主席决斗的病毒式传播视频。

And for many Americans, their first experience with him was when he challenged the head of the Teamsters Union to a fight in this incredibly viral video.

先生，现在是时候了。

Sir, this is a time.

这是个场合。

This is a place.

如果你非要逞口舌之快，我们可以让两个成年人好好打一场。

If you wanna run your mouth, we can beat two consenting adults.

我们这就了结吧。

We can finish it here.

好的。

Okay.

没问题。

That's fine.

完美。

Perfect.

你现在想动手吗？

You wanna do it now?

我现在就想打。

I'd love to do it right now.

那你就站起来吧。

Well, stand your butt up then.

你才该站起来呢。

You stand your butt up.

哦，等等。

Oh, hold it.

不。

No.

别动。

Hold it.

停下。

Stop it.

这就是你每次说不的解决办法吗？

Is that your solution every No.

不。

No.

坐下。

Sit down.

对不起，埃里克。

Sorry, Eric.

坐下。

Sit down.

在国会听证会上。

During a hearing before congress.

是的。

Yeah.

在国会听证会上。

During a hearing before congress.

我们不能，不行。

We can't No.

我有话筒。

I have the mic.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

是Hold

Is Hold

它。

it.

说了。

Said.

可以

Can

我回应吗？

I respond?

哦，不行。

Oh, no.

你不能。

You can't.

这是一场听证会。

This is a hearing.

上帝知道，美国人民对国会已经足够鄙视了。

And God knows the American people have enough contempt for congress.

我们别

Let's not