移民问题引发的政府停摆之争

这里是《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

您正在收听的是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

今晚稍晚时候，美国政府将再次面临停摆，但这次仅涉及一个机构——国土安全部。

Later tonight, the US government will find itself in yet another shutdown, this time of only one agency, the Department of Homeland Security.

今天，国会记者迈克尔·戈尔德将为我们解析，为何民主党人再次在资金问题上与总统发生争执。

Today, congressional reporter Michael Gold on why Democrats are once again picking a fight over funding with the president.

今天是2月13日，星期五。

It's Friday, February 13.

迈克尔，感谢你在如此繁忙的一天抽时间给我们，我知道我们刚刚在美国国会大厦里找到你。

Michael, thank you for making time for us on a busy day where I know we just grabbed you inside The US Capitol.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说，今天国会山这边有很多事情在发生。

A lot happening here on the hill today, I would say.

好的，非常感谢你抽时间接受我们的采访。

Well, appreciate you making time for us.

就目前而言，在周四下午大约3点45分这一刻，我们确实正朝着又一次政府停摆的方向发展。

As of this moment, at around 03:45PM on Thursday afternoon, it sure looks like we are headed for another government shutdown.

但这次的停摆有一个非常独特的转折点。

But this one has a very unique twist to it.

没错，迈克尔。

That's right, Michael.

目前看来，周六凌晨12点01分，国土安全部将会关闭，这也是我们预计此次唯一会关闭的政府部门。

At this point, it looks like at 12:01AM on Saturday morning, the Department of Homeland Security is going to shut down, and it's the only government department that we expect will shut down this time.

单一机构的停摆？

A single agency shutdown?

一个机构的停摆，而这个部门的支出约占美国政府总支出的4%。

A one agency shutdown, and that department is about 4% of US government spending.

所以，如果你把去年那次视为全面政府停摆，把本月早些时候那次视为部分政府停摆，那么这次就是一次极小范围的政府停摆。

So if you think about the shutdown we had last year as a full government shutdown and the brief one we had earlier this month as a partial government shutdown, this is a very fractional government shutdown.

一次极小规模的政府停摆。

A fractional government shutdown.

没错。

Right.

正如你所暗示的，政府停摆已成为常态。

And as you're hinting at, government shutdowns have become the norm.

但即便在这种奇怪的新常态下，这次停摆也相当独特。

But even within that weird new norm, this one is quite unique.

那么，请给我们讲讲我们是如何走到单一机构部分停摆这一步的。

So tell us the story of how we get to a single agency fractional shutdown.

所以，过去几个月里，国会确实一直在努力通过所有的拨款法案。

So for the last few months, congress has really been working hard to pass all of its funding bills.

这是共和党在掌控众议院和参议院后设定的一个主要优先事项。

And this is something that Republicans, when they took control of both the house and senate, set as a major priority.

他们想要通过拨款法案。

They wanted to pass funding bills.

他们希望通过单独的拨款法案，而不是一个庞大的综合方案，并且真正为每个政府部门敲定政策细节。

They wanted to pass individual funding bills, not one big package, and really hash out policy details for every government department.

对。

Right.

他们的论点是，如果通过多个法案来为政府提供资金，而不是一个庞大且难以理解的单一法案，就能提高透明度。

And the argument was that that creates more transparency if you have multiple bills funding the government versus one vast impenetrable bill.

没错。

That's right.

许多国会议员抱怨说，他们总是被迫投票支持这些庞大的综合法案，却从未真正有机会就法案的具体内容进行讨价还价。

And a lot of members of Congress had complained that they had constantly been stuck voting for these big packages, but they never really got to haggle on the specifics of what went into those bills.

因此，几个月来，共和党人和民主党人一直在努力寻求共识，白宫也偶尔参与其中，试图找到一种能够逐个部门为政府提供资金的方式。

And so they've been working for months to find agreements, Republicans and Democrats, occasionally, White House, coming together to try to find a way that they could fund the government one department at a time.

我的意思是，他们当时正在推动一些已在众议院和参议院获得通过的法案。

I mean, they were putting together bills that cleared the house and senate.

他们确实在共同努力，试图在各种问题上找到妥协方案。

They were really working together to try to find compromises on things.

直到上个月，雷内·古德在明尼阿波利斯被一名移民局探员枪杀，一切似乎都进展顺利。

And it seemed like everything was on track until last month when Renee Good was shot and killed by an immigration agent in Minneapolis.

就在那时，民主党人意识到他们即将通过一项为国土安全部提供资金的法案，该部门负责监管移民及海关执法局和边境巡逻队。

And that's when Democrats realized that they're on the verge of passing a bill to fund the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees ICE and the border patrol.

是的。

Right.

于是民主党人开始讨论如何对该法案进行实质性修改，以对联邦移民执法行动和驱逐打击施加一些限制。

And so Democrats start to talk about how they can get serious changes to that bill that would impose some restrictions on the federal immigration operations and the deportation crackdown.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后他们回到谈判桌前，与白宫和共和党人协商，最终提出了一项折衷方案，为国土安全部提供资金，其中包括诸如2000万美元用于购买执法记录仪，以及要求官员接受关于武力使用和降级技巧的强化培训等内容。

And they go back to the negotiating table with the White House and with Republicans, and they come up with a kind of compromise bill to fund the Department of Homeland Security that includes things like $20,000,000 for body cameras and requirements that officers get enhanced training about use of force and de escalation techniques.

明白了。

Got it.

所以民主党人争取到了一些改变，涉及移民官员在明尼阿波利斯等地的执法方式。

So Democrats extract some changes to the way that immigration officials are going to be operating in places like Minneapolis.

这些改变看起来不算大，但确实存在。

They seem modest, but they're there.

对。

Right.

他们知道自己没能得到所有想要的东西，但觉得这已经是个相当不错的妥协方案了。

They know they didn't get everything they wanted, but they feel like this is a pretty good compromise.

他们非常坚定地要走正常的拨款程序。

They're very committed to going through the regular funding process.

他们说，这已经是我们能争取到的最好结果了，有一些限制总比完全没有限制要好。

And they say, this is as good as we can get, and it's better to have some restrictions than no restrictions.

明白了。

Gotcha.

而这项法案正在国会推进，尚未在参议院获得通过时，联邦移民官员就在明尼苏达州杀害了亚历克斯·普雷特。

And that bill is making its way through Congress and hasn't yet cleared the Senate when federal immigration agents kill Alex Prette in Minnesota.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而在那一刻，这个议题的政治格局对民主党人来说真的改变了。

And at that moment, the politics of this issue really changed for Democrats.

没错。

Right.

因为突然间，这些移民官员已经杀害了两名美国公民，这显然已成为一个有问题的模式，全国上下都能亲眼看到。

Because suddenly, these immigration officials have killed two American citizens in what clearly has emerged as a problematic pattern that everyone in the country can see for themselves.

说得对，迈克尔。

That's right, Michael.

而亚历克斯·佩蒂被枪击的视频迅速传播开来，激怒了民主党人。

And the video of Alex Petty shooting spreads very quickly and outrages Democrats.

该党几乎一致表态，表示除非能够获得严格的新限制措施，防止此类事件再次发生在任何美国公民身上，否则他们将不会支持为ICE或其他移民机构提供任何新的资金。

And the party comes out almost unanimously to say that they will not back any new funding for ICE or other immigration agencies unless they can get serious new restrictions that prevent anything like this from happening to an American citizen ever again.

所以，在亚历克斯·弗雷迪去世后，之前足够好的妥协方案现在变得不够好了。

So after Alex Freddie's death, what was a good enough compromise before is no longer good enough.

没错。

That's right.

ICE和CBP已经失控了。

ICE and CBP have gotten out of control.

我们亲眼目睹了公民与和平抗议者

We have seen with our own eyes how citizens and peaceful protest

你开始看到像帕蒂·默里参议员这样的人物发表惊人声明，她是负责协商拨款法案的委员会中最高级别的民主党人，此前曾表示会支持这份她协助协商的法案。

And you start to see striking statements from people like senator Patty Murray, who is the top Democrat on the committee that negotiates funding bills, and who had said that she was going to support this bill that she had helped negotiate.

但佩蒂枪击案一发生，她就表示我们需要更进一步，采取更多行动。

But as soon as the Preti shooting happens, she says, we need to go further and we need to do more.

雷内·古德和亚历克斯·普雷蒂的遇害事件确实震惊了人们的良知。

The killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preti really shocked the conscious.

他们要求采取行动。

They demand action.

他们要求问责与正义。

They demand accountability and justice.

民主党人正坚持要求实现这些。

Democrats are insisting that happens.

少尉

Ensign

够了，真的够了。

Enough is enough.

ICE在法律之外的行为是国家纵容的暴行，必须停止。

What ICE is doing outside the law is state sanctioned thuggery, and it must stop.

你看到参议院民主党领袖查克·舒默站出来表示，他认为这项法案的力度还不够。

And you see Chuck Schumer, the senate democratic leader, come out and say that he believes that this bill doesn't go far enough.

我不喜欢政府停摆，但显然，这件事很重要。

I don't like shutdowns, but, obviously, this is important.

你会看到很多通常反对政府停摆的民主党人开始提出新的条件。

And you see a lot of Democrats who usually oppose shutdowns start to demand new conditions.

我们又不是不能现在就通过那96%的预算案，然后专门处理国土安全部的预算，这部分确实需要解决。

It's not like we can't pass 96% of those budgets right now and then just work on the homeland security one, which we need to address.

他们说，如果法案没有对移民及海关执法局施加严格的新限制，即使有政府停摆的风险，他们也无法支持。

Who say that they can't support a bill even at the risk of a shutdown if it doesn't impose serious new restrictions on ICE.

那么，这些民主党人开始要求哪些新的限制条件，才同意为国土安全部提供资金呢？

And what are the new restrictions that these Democrats start to demand in order to ever agree to fund the Department of Homeland Security?

所以，民主党人提出了多项要求。

So Democrats have a number of demands that they're making.

但其中最主要的一项要求是，联邦移民官员必须明显展示其身份标识，并且不允许他们使用面具向公众隐藏身份。

But chief among them is a requirement that federal immigration officers visibly show their identification and that they can't be allowed to use masks to hide their identities from the public.

而这两项努力似乎都直指问责制和透明度。

And both of those efforts would seem to very much be pointed at accountability, transparency.

一名特工的脸清晰可见。

An agent's face is visible.

一名特工的名字清晰可见。

An agent's name is visible.

所以这才是他们真正在推动的。

So that's what they're really pushing for.

没错。

That's right.

他们主张，如果让执法人员更公开地展示身份，可能会对他们的行为产生影响，并促使他们思考如何与公众互动。

They're arguing that if you make officers be more public about their identities, it might have an impact on their conduct and make them think about how they're interacting with members of the public.

这是民主党在整个特朗普第二任期内一直想要实现的目标。

And this is something that Democrats have wanted throughout Trump's second term.

他们一直在抱怨这一点。

They have been complaining about this.

他们辩称，这使得移民与海关执法局等同于一支秘密警察部队。

They've argued that it makes ICE equivalent to a secret police force.

现在他们视此为要求做出一些改变的真正机会。

And now they see this as an opportunity to really demand some changes here.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么政府对此要求作何回应？

And how does the administration respond to that demand?

共和党和白宫几乎一致拒绝了这一要求，认为它根本行不通。

Republicans and the White House have pretty roundly rejected that as a nonstarter.

为什么？

Why?

因此他们表示，ICE探员需要能够保护自己的身份不被公众知晓，因为他们面临着被人肉搜索或遭受其他骚扰的风险。

So they say that ICE agents need to be able to protect their identities from the public because they're at risk of being doxxed or otherwise harassed.

他们还说，ICE探员正面临着前所未有的威胁激增，而隐藏身份、遮蔽面容以防范意图伤害他们的人，正是他们保护自己的方式。

And they say that ICE agents are facing an unprecedented rise in threats and that this is how they're protecting themselves, by hiding their identities, by shielding their faces from people who mean them harm.

所以双方都固守己见，谈判陷入了僵局。

So both sides are entrenched in their positions, and these negotiations are at an impasse.

这就把我们带到了本周，为国土安全部提供资金的截止时间正在逼近。

And that brings us to this week, where the clock is ticking to fund the Department of Homeland Security.

莱昂斯先生，你认为自己是一个有宗教信仰的人吗？

Mister Lyons, do you consider yourself a religious man?

是的，女士。

Yes, ma'am.

噢，是的。

Oh, yes.

好的。

Okay.

那么，你手上沾了这么多鲜血，你认为审判日那天你会怎么样？

Well, how do you think judgment day will work for you with so much blood on your hands?

我不会回答这个问题。

I'm not gonna entertain that question.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

而民主党人则利用一切可用的机会，来强调他们认为移民系统有多么缺陷，以及他们希望对ICE和边境巡逻队做出的改变。

And Democrats are using every available opportunity to highlight just how flawed they think the immigration system is and the changes they wanna see to ICE and the border patrol.

这发生在他们质询ICE和边境保护部门负责人的听证会上。

And this comes at hearings where they grill the heads of ICE and border protection.

莱昂斯先生，你会为总统及其领导层称雷内·古德为国内恐怖分子而向她的家人道歉吗？

Sher Lyons, will you apologize to the family of Renee Good for being called a domestic terrorist by the president and his leadership?

不，先生。

No, sir.

为什么不呢？

Why not?

有一场与帕姆·邦迪的听证会。

There's a hearing with Pam Bondi.

当他们杀害珀迪先生和古德女士时，那是一次处决，而你们没有进行调查。

When they killed mister Purdy and and and miss Good, that was an execution, and you did not investigate it.

而且你们还试图

And you tried

民主党人利用这个机会就克里斯蒂·诺姆的问题质问她，并对他们的政策提出反对意见。

Democrats use that as an opportunity to grill her about Kristi Noem and voice objections to their policies.

他们就像克里斯蒂·诺姆处决她的狗一样被处决了，这是错误的。

They were executed like Kristi Noem executed her dog, and that was wrong.

你应该调查那些人，你应该调查

And you should investigate those people, and you should investigate

与此同时，这场辩论正在众议院和参议院的议事厅展开。

And all the while, this debate is playing out on the house floor and on the senate floor.

现在真正的问题是，鉴于各方在这些议题上的立场都已如此强硬，是否还能达成协议。

And there's a real question of whether a deal can even be made given how hardened everyone has become on these issues.

我认为这让我们回到了周四下午，以及这场几乎已确定的政府停摆。现实情况是，国会民主党人此刻已不仅仅是在预算和国土安全部资金问题上挑起争端。

Which I think brings us to Thursday afternoon and this all but assured shutdown And the reality that congressional Democrats at this point are no longer just picking a fight over the budget and how DHS gets funded.

他们正在提出一个更广泛的、全党性的观点，针对他们所认为的移民执法过度、缺乏问责制的问题，并坚信自己是采取行动的最后一道防线。

They're making this much broader party wide point about what they see as the excesses of immigration enforcement, its unaccountability, and their belief that they are the last line of defense in terms of doing something about it.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

That's true.

但这个立场确实给民主党人带来了挑战，因为尽管他们正在将这场斗争聚焦于移民执法、限制ICE以及约束边境保护人员，但这里存在一个更大的挑战。

But that position really comes with a challenge for Democrats because as much as they're making this fight about immigration enforcement and reigning in ICE and reigning in the border protection agents, there's a bigger challenge here.

即使我们现在正走向政府停摆，资金将停止流向国土安全部，但这实际上可能并不会对ICE、海关和边境巡逻队按照他们一直以来的方式运作造成太大影响。

Even now that we're headed toward a shutdown and the funding is gonna stop flowing to the Department of Homeland Security, that may not actually do much to stop ICE and Customs and Border Patrol from operating the way they've been operating.

这笔资金还流向许多其他机构，而且存在一个真正的风险，即他们实际上可能会损害许多人所依赖的服务，这可能会产生更广泛的影响。

There are a host of other agencies that this money goes to, and there's a real risk that they might actually hurt services that many people have come to depend on that might have a broader impact.

而且，这种策略完全有可能对民主党适得其反。

And it's entirely possible that this strategy could backfire for Democrats.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

那么，

So,

迈克尔，请解释一下，为什么撤销国土安全部的资金实际上并不会削减民主党最关注的机构（如ICE和边境巡逻队）的资金。

Michael, just explain how and why taking away the Department of Homeland Security's funding isn't actually going to defund the agencies that the Democrats are most focused on, like ICE and Border Patrol.

确实。

Sure.

你可能还记得去年，共和党通过了他们所谓的那个'一个伟大而美丽的法案'。

So you might remember last year, Republicans passed what they're calling their one big beautiful bill.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那个法案的很多关注点都在税收政策和医疗保健上。

And a lot of the attention on that bill was on tax policy and health care.

但那项法案的一个重要部分是向国土安全部提供大量资金用于移民执法。

But a major part of that bill was giving a huge amount of money to the Homeland Security Department for immigration enforcement.

共和党人向ICE拨款750亿美元，向海关与边境保护局拨款450亿美元，这些资金被允许用于移民执法工作。

And Republicans gave $75,000,000,000 to ICE and $45,000,000,000 to Customs and Border Protection, money that they were allowed to use for immigration enforcement efforts.

是的。

Yeah.

那可是一大笔钱。

That's a lot of money.

这是一笔巨额资金，而且这笔钱基本上没有任何附加条件。

It's a huge amount of money, and that money basically comes with no strings attached.

所以想法是，即使政府停摆，移民海关执法局和边境保护局也能用这笔钱继续他们的工作，继续进行移民突袭，继续维持高遣返率，继续推行这项行动。

And so the idea is that even with the shutdown, ICE and border protection can use that money to keep doing what they're doing, keep doing immigration raids, keep deportations up, and keep conducting this campaign.

所以特朗普政府预计，他们所谓的那个'一个伟大而美好的法案'提供的资金，将以某种方式确保移民执法官员的薪酬，维持各项行动的运转。

So the Trump administration expects that the funding from the one big beautiful bill, as they call it, will somehow or other keep immigration enforcement officers paid, keep operations going.

那么，如果削减国土安全部的资金最终不会损害移民海关执法局这类机构，削减资金实际上会削减哪些方面的支出呢？

So if defunding DHS isn't going to end up hurting agencies like ICE, what would defunding it actually end up defunding?

嗯，和许多政府部门一样，这个部门下面也有很多机构。

Well, like many government departments, there are a lot of agencies under this one.

所以在这种情况下，你指的是像联邦紧急事务管理局这样的机构，它负责联邦应急管理事务。

And so in this case, you're talking about agencies like FEMA, which is federal emergency management operations.

你指的是运输安全管理局，他们在机场对乘客进行安检，还有海岸警卫队、特勤局，以及负责网络安全的网络安全与基础设施安全局。

You're talking about the TSA, who's screening passengers at the airport, the coast guard, the secret service, and CISA, which handles cybersecurity.

这些都是相当重要的机构。

Pretty important agencies.

而对于像运输安全管理局和联邦紧急事务管理局这样的机构，当危机发生时，它们是非常显眼的。

And in the case of something like TSA and FEMA when there's a crisis, highly visible ones.

没错。

That's right.

在之前的政府停摆期间，我们看到这些机构会继续运作，但员工们不得不无薪工作。

And during previous shutdowns, we've seen that these agencies will continue operating, but their employees have to work without pay.

他们削减了很多服务。

They cut a lot of services.

因此，这往往是任何政府停摆中的一个痛点。

And so that tends to be a pain point in any shutdown.

如果人们在机场需要排更长的队，如果公众对此感到愤怒，这些问题的政治风向就会真正开始改变。

If people have to wait in longer lines at airports, if the public's mad about that, the politics of these issues really start to change.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，请解释一下民主党人为何谈论要取消国土安全部的拨款，如果这一行动并不会取消他们想要削减拨款的机构（如ICE等）的资金，反而会取消他们可能希望继续资助的项目的资金。

So then just explain how Democrats are talking about the logic of taking away the Department of Homeland Security's funding if that action doesn't take away the funding for the things that they want to defund, ICE, etcetera, and would take away funding from things that they probably wanna keep funding.

我认为需要指出的是，这并非民主党人主动寻求的斗争。

I think it's important to point out that this is not a fight that Democrats necessarily wanted.

但在去年政府停摆结束后，他们觉得已经掌握了应对此类停摆的策略手册，可以在当前这个特定时刻加以运用。

But coming out of the shutdown last year, they felt like they really had a playbook for shutdowns like this that they can use on this particular moment.

请详细解释一下这一点。

Just just explain that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你得记住，民主党人让上一次政府停摆完全围绕医疗保健问题展开，而且他们认为那对他们来说效果非常好。

So you have to remember, Democrats made the last shutdown entirely about health care, and they feel like that went really well for them.

这是一个他们在选民中传统上民调表现非常好、且选民倾向于信任他们的议题。

It's an issue where they traditionally poll very well with voters and where voters tend to trust them.

他们从那次停摆中走出来时，对自己在医疗保健问题上所采取的立场感到非常有信心。

And they came out of the shutdown feeling really confident that they had staked out a position on health care.

对。

Right.

正如你所说，医疗保健相关的政府停摆被民主党内部视为一场政治胜利，因此或许可以成为处理国土安全部资金问题的范本。

The health care shutdown, as you're saying, is seen within the Democratic Party as a political victory and perhaps therefore a model for how to handle DHS funding.

但值得注意的是，那次围绕医疗保健的停摆并未真正为民主党带来他们想要的政策变革。

But it seems worth noting that that shutdown over health care didn't really get Democrats the policy changes that they wanted.

他们未能让共和党人和总统批准加强的医疗保健激励措施。

They didn't get Republicans and the president to sign off on enhanced health care incentives.

那件事虽然没有发生，但它展示了该党在标志性议题上敢于对抗总统的意愿。

That didn't happen, but it demonstrated the party's willingness to stand up to the president on a signature issue.

没错。

That's right.

我认为这确实将医疗保健与民主党联系了起来，这正是他们希望美国选民所认为的。

I think it really linked the idea of health care with Democrats, which is something that they want American voters to think.

民主党是关心医疗成本并致力于采取措施解决这一问题的政党。

The Democrats are the party that cares about care costs and that is working to do something to address them.

而且我认为你会看到他们试图在这里传达类似的信息，即有一个政党确实希望确保特朗普政府的打击行动不会走得太远，并且遵循我们要求其他警察遵守的同样标准。

And I think you're gonna see them try to make a similar message here that one party really wants to make sure that the Trump administration's crackdown doesn't go too far and that it follows the same standards that we hold other police to.

而目前，民调显示选民们正支持他们。

And right now, polls are showing that voters are backing them.

选民们对移民及海关执法局（ICE）的所作所为存在严重质疑。

Voters have serious issues with what ICE is doing.

他们对明尼苏达州发生的事件也深感忧虑。

They have serious issues with what happened in Minnesota.

因此，民主党人觉得，尽管存在一些风险，但当前公众确实站在他们这一边。

And so Democrats feel like even though there are some risks, the public right now really is on their side.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

在上一次因医疗保健问题导致的政府停摆中，是民主党人发起并结束了停摆，当时有几位民主党参议员妥协了。

In that last shutdown over health care, it was the Democrats who started it and ended it when a few Democratic senators caved.

他们绕过了查克·舒默，与总统和共和党人合作结束了停摆，因为他们觉得停摆带来的痛苦变得太大了。

They went around Chuck Schumer, and they worked with the president, Republicans to end the shutdown because they felt that the pain from it was becoming too big.

他们担心公众会转而反对他们。

They worried the public was gonna be turning on them.

这是否再次成为民主党领导层面临的风险，即民主党议员们可能会失去他们的决心？

Is that a risk here again for Democratic leaders that Democratic lawmakers kinda lose their will?

我认为是的，但至少目前这次情况感觉有所不同。

I think it is, but things feel different at least right now this time.

我认为许多曾妥协与共和党达成协议的民主党人知道，现在很多目光都聚焦在他们身上。

I think a lot of Democrats who yielded to strike that deal with Republicans know that a lot of attention is on them right now.

而且我认为他们非常清楚，这是一个民主党基本盘极为关切的问题。

And I think that they're very aware that this is an issue that the Democratic base cares very deeply about.

所以目前看来，他们似乎不像上次那样容易妥协。

And so right now, it doesn't seem like they're as likely to fold as they were last time around.

那么，我们转向国会共和党人和总统，他们无疑预料到了国土安全部的这次部分停摆会发生。

So let's turn to congressional Republicans and to the president who no doubt have expected this partial DHS shutdown to happen.

一旦停摆正式启动，考虑到你刚才描述的政治现实和决心，他们的计划是什么？

Once it officially gets underway, given the political realities and the resolve that you just described, what is their plan?

因此，参议院共和党人和白宫确实认为这里有达成协议的空间。

So senate Republicans in the White House do think there is room for a deal here.

而且，这可能不是关于口罩，也可能不是关于身份证明，但他们确实认为存在一些领域，他们可以与民主党人达成妥协。

And it might not be on masks, and it might not be an identification, but they do think there are areas where they could come together and find a compromise with Democrats.

比如哪些方面？

Like what?

嗯，参议院共和党人一直在提及的一件事是汤姆·霍曼的声明，他是白宫边境事务负责人，表示特朗普政府将逐步减少在明尼阿波利斯市的执法增援行动。

Well, one thing that senate Republicans have been pointing to is this announcement by Tom Homan, who's the White House's borders are, that the Trump administration was gonna wind down its surge of enforcement in Minneapolis.

是的。

Right.

就在几小时前发布的。

Came just a few hours ago.

就在几小时前。

Just a few hours ago.

国会山的共和党人表示，这表明白宫正在回应民主党的关切，并且非常清楚地表明白宫确实认为在此事上有一定的回旋余地。

And Republicans on the Hill are saying that that shows that the White House is being responsive to Democrats' concerns and that it's making it very clear that the White House does see some room to maneuver here.

这让参议院的共和党人感到乐观，但具体会导向何种结果还很不明朗。

And that makes senate Republicans optimistic, But where exactly that lands us is pretty unclear.

迈克尔，我们还有一个尚未讨论的风险，我想以此结束我们关于民主党的对话，那就是特朗普总统可能会找到一种方式向公众证明民主党在非法移民问题上立场软弱。

Michael, there's a risk that we haven't talked about that I'd like to end our conversation on here for the Democrats, which is that president Trump finds a way to make the case to the public that Democrats are weak on illegal immigration.

而且民主党无需回顾太久远的历史，就能看到总统的这种论调能产生多大的效果。

And Democrats don't need to look very far in the past to see how effective that argument can be from the president.

整个2024年总统选举，在众多美国选民看来，似乎就是民主党未能在移民问题上把握时机的表现。

The entire twenty twenty four presidential election seemed like an exercise in Democrats failing to meet the moment on immigration for lots of American voters.

而试图削减ICE（移民和海关执法局）资金的举动，即使最终并未成功削减，也可能为总统和公众提供论据，证明民主党在非法移民问题上与国家的步调不一致，并且他们反对执法。

And the act of trying to defund ICE, even if it doesn't end up defunding ICE, might make the case for the president and for the public that Democrats are out of sync with the country on illegal immigration and that they're against law enforcement.

那么，这是否意味着我们最终可能会看到这种情况上演，并且会以某种方式对民主党人产生反作用，或许会让他们真的后悔这个计划？

So is that something that we may end up seeing play out here and that would backfire on the Democrats in a way that perhaps will really make them regret this plan?

嗯，我认为共和党人已经在试图开启这个话题了。

Well, I think Republicans are already trying to start that conversation.

在整个讨论过程中，他们一直辩称民主党人在遏制非法移民方面做得不够。

Throughout the discussions on this, they've argued that Democrats are not doing enough to rein in illegal immigration.

但我想指出的一点是，民主党人非常谨慎地表明，这是在讨论移民和海关执法局使用的策略、边境巡逻人员使用的策略，以及他们与美国公民互动的方式。

But one thing I would point out is that Democrats are being very careful to make it clear that this is a conversation about the tactics being used by ICE, the tactics being used by border patrol agents, and the way they're interacting with American citizens.

而这是一个他们自认为可以赢得优势的领域，即便移民问题对他们来说传统上一直是个难题。

And that's an area where they think they can win an advantage even if immigration has traditionally been a difficult issue for them.

但问题在于，选民是否会完全接受民主党试图呈现的这种微妙立场。

But the question is whether voters will fully embrace the nuance that Democrats are trying to present.

而且今年是大选年，所以到十一月我们就能知道这是否对民主党有利。

And it's an election year, so we will find out by November whether this worked in Democrats' favor.

好的，迈克尔，非常感谢你。

Oh, Michael, thank you very much.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

以下是今天您还需要了解的其他消息。

Here's what else you need to know today.

如果你关注环境问题，这可是个大新闻。

This is a big one if you're into environment.

他们告诉我，这差不多是最大规模的了。

This is about as big as it gets, they tell me.

周四，特朗普总统撤销了关于气候变化危害人类健康与环境的科学结论。

On Thursday, president Trump rescinded the scientific finding that climate change endangers human health and the environment.

通过此举，他放弃了政府监管导致气候变化的温室气体的权力。

In doing so, he gave up the government's authority to regulate greenhouse gases that cause climate change.

根据环保署刚刚完成的程序，我们正式终止了所谓的危害认定，这是一项灾难性的奥巴马时代政策，它严重地……

Under the process just completed by the EPA, we are officially terminating the so called endangerment finding, a disastrous Obama era policy that severely

这一历史性举措，即昨日节目讨论的主题，代表了一小群保守派活动人士的显著胜利，他们多年来一直试图阻止美国政府主导的从化石燃料向太阳能和风能等清洁能源转型。

The historic move, the subject of yesterday's show, represents a remarkable victory for a small group of conservative activists who have spent years trying to stop America's government led transition away from fossil fuels toward cleaner forms of energy like solar and wind.

此外，一名联邦法官已阻止国防部长皮特·赫格塞夫对民主党参议员马克·凯利（一位退役的美国海军上尉）进行惩罚和降职，原因是凯利参与了一段呼吁军队拒绝服从非法命令的视频。

And a federal judge has blocked defense secretary Pete Hegsef from punishing and demoting Democratic senator Mark Kelly, a retired US Navy captain, for participating in a video that called on troops to disobey illegal orders.

法官裁定，这些行为很可能侵犯了凯利的宪法第一修正案权利。

The judge ruled that the actions likely violated Kelly's First Amendment rights.

这是白宫决心惩罚挑战总统的立法者所遭遇的最新挫折。

It's the latest setback for a White House determined to punish lawmakers who challenge the president.

本周，华盛顿的一个大陪审团也驳回了政府试图起诉凯利和其他五名制作该视频的民主党议员的不寻常请求。

This week, a grand jury in Washington also rejected the administration's unusual attempt to indict Kelly and the five other Democratic lawmakers who made the video.

最后，一则节目预告。

Finally, a programming note.

在明天的访谈节目中，我的同事露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗将与吉赛尔·佩利科进行对话。

Tomorrow on the interview, my colleague, Lulu Garcia Navarro, sits down with Giselle Pellico.

2024年，佩利科的前夫在法国的一场震惊世界的审判中被判有罪，罪名是给她下药并安排数十名男子对她实施强奸。

In 2024, Pellico's ex husband was convicted of both drugging her and arranging for her rape by dozens of men during a trial in France that shocked the world.

当我第一次走进那个法庭，看到他们的面孔，年龄从22岁到70岁不等，想到这些人曾进入我的卧室，这真的令人难以置信。

The first time I walked into that courtroom when I discovered their faces, ages 22 to 70, it was really unbelievable to think those people came into my bedroom.

他们进来是为了强奸我。

They came in there to rape me.

今天的节目由克莱尔·特内舍德和里基·内维茨基制作。

Today's episode was produced by Claire Tenescheder and Ricky Nevetsky.

节目由罗布·齐普科和瑞秋编辑，音乐由马里恩·洛萨诺和黛安·王创作，工程由克里斯·伍德负责。

It was edited by Rob Zipko and Rachel contains music by Marion Lozano and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是今天的《每日新闻》。

That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

I'm Michael Bilbaro.

周日见。

See you on Sunday.