詹姆斯·科米的起诉书

美丽与赢得网球大满贯、赋能社区或在南美洲的荒野中追踪美洲豹有何关联？大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼，欢迎回到《这不是一档美容播客》第二季。在这里，我将揭示那些触及美丽如何交织于我们生活方方面面的故事。请通过您喜爱的播客平台收听由欧莱雅集团呈现的《这不是一档美容播客》。

What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam or empowering communities or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America? Hi there. I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season two of this is not a beauty podcast where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives. Listen to this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.

这里是《纽约时报》的迈克尔·比尔巴罗为您带来的《每日播报》。周四晚间，大陪审团起诉了前联邦调查局局长詹姆斯·科米，此案是特朗普总统亲自要求联邦检察官推进的，尽管他们对科米是否犯罪存在严重疑虑。今天，我的同事德夫林·巴雷特将解析起诉书内容及其对特朗普持续报复行动的意义。今天是9月26日，星期五。

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro. This is The Daily. On Thursday night, a grand jury indicted the former director of the FBI, James Comey, in a case that Trump has personally demanded that federal prosecutors pursue despite their own serious doubts about whether Comey committed a crime. Today, my colleague, Devlin Barrett, on what's in the indictment and what it means for Trump's ongoing campaign of retribution. It's Friday, September 26.

德夫林，现在是深夜11点15分，周四晚上。非常感谢你抽时间接受采访。

Devlin, it's late at night, 09:15 on Thursday night, and I'm grateful for you making time for us.

很荣幸参与。

Happy to be here.

德夫林，我们即将讨论的这份起诉书，是特朗普总统一直希望针对其长期宿敌詹姆斯·科米提起的。但几乎所有审查过此案的政府检察官都表示不愿推进，因为他们认为证据不足难以定罪。然而，我们终究走到了这一步。

This, Devlin, is an indictment that we're gonna be talking about that president Trump has always wanted to bring against James Comey, his longtime nemesis. But it's an indictment that almost every government prosecutor that has looked at it has actually said, we don't wanna bring it because they didn't think there was enough evidence to ever get to a conviction. And yet, here we are.

是的。这对国家而言是重大时刻——前FBI局长被起诉，其影响深远。但最重要的是，这标志着特朗普总统公开且持续利用司法系统进行报复行动的巅峰。这个他曾憎恶、不信任并调查过他的司法体系，如今被他用来追查政敌，将司法部化作对付那些他认为导致自身法律困境之人的工具。

Yeah. This is a huge moment for the country. You have a former FBI director indicted, and it's huge for a bunch of reasons. But I think most importantly, it is the culmination. It is the the result of a very public and incessant campaign for of retribution by president Trump to use the justice system that he resents, that he distrusts, that went after him, to instead use that system to pursue his enemies, to use DOJ as a as a tool against the people that he blames for his own legal problems.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这无疑让整个司法部陷入了一个令人恐惧、动荡且充满不确定性的时刻，因为我认为在该领域工作的任何人都不会认为特朗普会止步于起诉吉姆·科米。

And that makes for a frankly scary and tumultuous and uncertain moment at the entire justice department because I don't think anyone who works in that space thinks Trump is going to stop with the indictment of Jim Comey.

没错。首先我们需要将这次起诉置于你刚才描述的背景下——特朗普将司法部视为个人报复的工具，尤其是针对科米，以及特朗普十年来如何执着于起诉科米的念头。

Right. And I think just to start, we should put this indictment into that context you just laid out of Trump seeing the Department of Justice as really a tool for personal retribution, very specifically against Comey and just how committed Trump has been to the idea of prosecuting Comey at this point for pretty much a decade.

我们需要回溯到2017年，当时特朗普刚就任总统，詹姆斯·科米已是资深FBI局长。短短数月内，由于科米主导着对特朗普身边人的调查，两人之间的不信任感与日俱增。

So you really need to go back to 2017 when Trump is a new president. James Comey is a veteran FBI director at that point. And within a matter of months, those two people just distrust each other more and more and more because Comey is leading an investigation into people in Trump's orbit.

这就是通俄门调查——特朗普竞选团队是否与俄罗斯勾结？此时已是总统的特朗普憎恶这项调查的存在。

This is the Russia investigation. Did the Trump campaign collude with Russia? Trump's now president. He hates the existence of this investigation.

是的。科米曾有名地描述过被特朗普要求宣誓效忠，而他试图礼貌拒绝。嗯。像特朗普这样的总统和科米这样的FBI局长组合本就是易燃物。2017年5月，特朗普解雇了科米。

Right. And Comey sort of famously described being pressed for a pledge of loyalty from president Trump and trying to politely refuse to do that. Mhmm. Having a president like Donald Trump and an FBI director like Jim Comey is is a combustible combination. And in May 2017, Trump fires Comey.

对，这一幕令人记忆犹新。

Right. Quite memorably.

没错，既令人难忘又充满戏剧性。这一举动本身引发了一系列事件，最终导致任命特别检察官来调查特朗普在整个通俄门问题中的行为。

Yeah. Quite memorably, quite dramatically. And that itself sets off a series of events that leads to a special counsel being appointed to investigate Donald Trump over the entire Russia question.

这只会加深他对科米的厌恶和愤怒。嗯，确实如此。

Which only deepens his disgust and his fury with Comey. Well, exactly.

听着，他是个爱出风头的人，喜欢哗众取宠。联邦调查局一直处于混乱中，你是知道的。

Look. He's a showboat. He's a grandstander. The FBI has been in turmoil. You know that.

我知道，所有人都知道。

I know that. Everybody knows that.

我的感觉是，联邦调查局甚至在2017年，几乎就在他解雇詹姆斯·科米后不久，就产生了起诉他的念头。

And my sense is that FBI even in 2017, pretty much right after he fires James Comey, develops a desire to prosecute him.

没错。因为在那段时间里，特别检察官的调查正在加强。这对总统来说是个越来越大的问题。

Right. Because what's happening in that time period is the special counsel investigation is ramping up. This is becoming a bigger problem for the president.

没有勾结，没有妨碍司法。他是个泄密者。但是

No collusion. No obstruction. He's a leaker. But

而且他越来越多地将这些问题归咎于科米，他称科米是个骗子，是个泄密者。

And he increasingly blames those problems on Comey, who who he calls a phony, who he calls a leaker.

特朗普总统在周日早晨发起了一系列针对科米的推文风暴。总统称科米是个卑鄙小人。

President Trump launched a Sunday morning tweet storm aimed at Comey. The president called Comey a slimeball.

特朗普总统今早在推特上反击，称詹姆斯·科米已被证实是泄密者和骗子。

President Trump struck back on Twitter this morning saying James Comey is a proven leaker and liar.

他对科米深表怀疑，认为其试图操纵政府给特朗普制造麻烦并调查特朗普。

Who he is deeply, deeply suspicious of and thinks is just out there trying to manipulate the government to cause Trump problems and to investigate Trump.

他还称这位前FBI局长'心怀不满'，并表示科米等人'犯下了多项罪行'。

He also called the former FBI director, quote, disgruntled and said Comey and others, quote, committed many crimes.

公平地说，据我回忆，科米最终明确表示他确实希望任命特别检察官。他确实希望自己撰写的某些备忘录公开，也认为总统应接受进一步调查。

And just to be fair to Trump in this moment, as I recall, Comey eventually makes clear that he did want a special counsel. He did want certain memos he wrote to become public, and he did believe that the president should be further investigated.

没错。科米最终承认故意泄露某些他认为重要的信息。虽然他的判断力受到诸多批评，但检方反复审查其行为后都认定这些不构成犯罪。这让特朗普倍感挫败，成为他耿耿于怀的心结——为何找不到愿意起诉科米的检察官？

Right. Comey admitted eventually to putting certain information out that he wanted out there because he thought it was important. And there are a number of criticisms that are made of Comey's conduct, mostly of his judgment. But time after time, what you see in that period is prosecutors looking at Comey's actions and deciding these aren't really crimes. And that frustrates Trump, and it becomes sort of a very sore point with him that, you know, why can't he find a prosecutor?

为何找不到司法部长？为何找不到足够忠诚的人以罪名起诉吉姆·科米？

Why can't he find an attorney general? Why can't he find someone loyal enough to him to charge Jim Comey with a crime?

据我回忆，第一任期结束时，特朗普未能如愿起诉吉姆·科米。那么当他连任后，会如何实施对科米根深蒂固的报复？我们又是如何走到这一步的？

And then, as I recall it, the first term comes to an end. There is no prosecution of Jim Comey as Trump wants. So once Trump gets elected to a second term, what is he doing with his deeply held vengeance for Jim Comey, and how do we get to this point?

他逢人便说——最重要的是向政府下属强调——'他们起诉了我，现在该轮到他们被起诉了'。在特朗普心中，名单首位就是吉姆·科米。他开始不断施压司法部高层官员（其中多人曾是他的刑事辩护律师），要求他们不惜代价对科米提起刑事诉讼。

He's telling anyone who will listen, and most importantly, the people who work for him in the government, they indicted me. Now they need to be indicted. And in Trump's mind, at the top of that list is Jim Comey. And he starts pushing senior justice department officials who are, in in many instances, his former criminal defense lawyers. He starts pushing them harder and harder and harder to make a criminal case against Comey.

嗯。但光下命令未必能成事。司法部并非纯粹自上而下听令行事的机构。负责此案的是弗吉尼亚东区检察官办公室的职业检察官们，他们评估证据后表示：'这根本构不成有效案件'。

Mhmm. But just ordering it isn't enough to necessarily make it happen. The justice department is not simply a top down structure that solely follows orders. There are career prosecutors who are tasked with looking at this. This case ends up being in the Eastern District Of Virginia office, and the prosecutors there look at the evidence and say, you know, this is not a good case.

这达不到起诉标准。不仅职业检察官这么认为，连共和党任命的弗吉尼亚东区联邦检察官也向上级汇报：'此案证据薄弱，不应提起诉讼'。

This is not a chargeable crime. And it wasn't just career prosecutors. It was also the Republican pick to run the the federal prosecutor's office in the Eastern District Of Virginia. And he too told his superiors, this is not a good case. This is not a case that should be charged.

根本站不住脚。

It's simply weak.

嗯。

Mhmm.

与首任期内虽不满但最终妥协不同，这次他拒绝接受否决。他撤换了这位共和党籍检察官，改派对总统绝对忠诚的白宫幕僚接任——这位毫无公诉经验的律师，强行推进了这个已被团队认定为'不应立案'的案子。但这还不够，他公开要求司法部长帕姆·邦迪推动起诉程序。

And unlike the first term when Trump often essentially settled for being told no, even though he didn't like it, he doesn't settle for that this time. This time, he forces out this Republican lawyer, and he puts in instead a White House aide who is very loyal to the president, a lawyer who has zero prosecutorial experience. And she pushes forward with this case that her own staff has already said is a bad case and shouldn't be brought. But he doesn't stop there. He publicly calls on his attorney general, Pam Bondi, to push forward and get an indictment.

这本质上是一道必须继续执行的公共命令。

It's basically a public order to keep going.

没错。而且看起来他终于把所有环节都安排妥当了。他有个几乎对他言听计从的司法部长，解雇了挡路的联邦检察官，还安插了个像邦迪那样忠心耿耿、随时待命的接替者。

Right. And it seems like he's finally gotten all the elements in place. He's got an attorney general who will pretty much do whatever he wants. He's fired the US attorney standing in the way, and he's installed a replacement who seems as loyal as Bondi and ready to go for it.

正是如此。

Exactly.

好的。那么我想，这基本上就把我们带到了今天——当那位认为本案证据不足、难有进展的前任检察官被替换后，新任联邦检察官向大陪审团提起了诉讼。大陪审团受理并起诉了吉姆·科米。现在我们来聊聊起诉书里的具体内容。

Okay. So that, I think, pretty much brings us to today when that new US attorney replacing the old one who didn't think this case had enough evidence to ever get anywhere brings an indictment to the grand jury. And the grand jury accepts it and indicts Jim Comey. So let's talk about what's actually in that indictment.

对。起诉书针对的是吉姆·科米在2020年9月30日向参议院委员会所作的证词。这个日期很关键，因为向国会作伪证的诉讼时效是五年。本案的诉讼时效下周二就将到期。所以无论特朗普想要什么，无论他的忠诚部下打算做什么，他们都必须在本周最迟下周二前行动。

Right. The indictment is about Jim Comey's testimony to a senate committee back in 09/30/2020. That date is important because the statute of limitations for false testimony to congress is five years. The statute of limitations in this case is set to expire next Tuesday. So whatever Trump wanted and whatever Trump's loyal soldiers were going to do, they had to do it this week or at the latest by next Tuesday.

这就解释了为何如此紧迫。起诉书中指控科米在2020年参议院作证时有哪些违法行为？

So that explains the urgency. What in the indictment is Comey alleged to have done illegally that relates to that senate testimony from 2020?

起诉书指控科米在听证会上与德克萨斯州共和党参议员泰德·克鲁兹的交锋中向参议院撒谎。

So Comey is accused in this indictment of lying to the senate based on an exchange he had in that hearing with senator Ted Cruz, a republican from Texas.

谢谢，主席先生。回到科米先生的话题。科米先生

Thank you, mister chairman. Returning to mister Comey. Mister Comey

在那场听证会上，克鲁兹参议员质问他

And in that hearing, senator Cruz asks him

2017年5月3日，在本委员会，格拉斯利主席直截了当地问你，引述原话，你是否曾授权联邦调查局其他人员作为匿名消息源，向新闻媒体透露关于特朗普调查或克林顿政府的信息？你再次在宣誓后回答，没有。现在如你所知，麦凯布先生，他任职于

On 05/03/2017, in this committee, chairman Grassley asked you point blank, quote, have you ever authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton administration? You responded again under oath. No. Now as you know, mister McCabe, who works for

你此前声明过，未曾授权联邦调查局任何人向记者泄露信息。

You have said before that you did not authorize anyone at the FBI to leak information to reporters.

记录显示

Journaling that

简单说明一下，克鲁兹同时质询了俄罗斯干预调查、联邦调查局调查以及希拉里·克林顿使用私人邮件服务器的事件。特朗普和共和党人自然对克林顿因此事未被起诉感到愤怒。

And just to explain quickly, Cruz is asking about both the Russia investigation and the FBI investigation and Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server. Trump and Republicans, of course, were furious that no charges were brought against Clinton for using that server.

没错。克鲁兹实质上是在重提此事，因为要记得，特朗普阵营和共和党对吉姆·科米的主要指控，就是认为他既泄密又说谎——这是他们的核心论点。

Right. And Cruz is basically reraising this issue because, again, remember, a lot of the Trump complaint, a lot of the Republican complaint about Jim Comey is that he's a leaker and a liar. That's their argument.

嗯。所以我只能就我的证词发言。我坚持你在2017年5月总结的我所提供证词的内容。

Mhmm. And so I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you summarized that I gave in May 2017.

那么你的证词是说，你从未授权任何人泄露信息？

So your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak?

科米的说法是，这是事实。我坚持我之前的证词。

What Comey says is, that's true. I stand by my prior testimony.

但我今天的立场依然不变。好吧。

But mine is the same today. Alright.

而这一点正是特朗普政府的司法部现在声称是谎言的内容。

And that is the thing that the Trump administration justice department now says was a lie.

之所以说是谎言，大概是因为他们向大陪审团提交了证据，显示科米确实指示了一名助手向媒体泄露信息。

A lie because they have evidence presumably that they presented to the grand jury that Comey did instruct an aide to leak to the media, presumably.

某人。关于这项起诉，有一点很重要需要指出：虽然我们知道检察官声称是谎言的那份声明内容，但我们不清楚它如何构成谎言。起诉书并未说明这为何是谎言。目前尚不清楚科米据称授权了谁泄露信息，也不清楚他据称授权泄露了哪些具体信息。

Someone. One thing that's important to point out about this indictment is that while we know what the statement is that prosecutors say is a lie, We don't know how it's a lie. The indictment doesn't tell us how this is a lie. It's not clear exactly who Comey allegedly authorized to leak information. It's not clear what information he he supposedly authorized to leak.

所以起诉书在这一点上表述非常模糊。明白了。但可以明确的是，它指出科米通过否认此事撒了谎。

So the indictment is very vague on that point. Got it. But it is clear that it says that by denying it, Comey lied.

听起来我们并不真正了解今晚公布的起诉书所依据的证据是什么。但我想反思一点：所有这些司法部的律师，甚至他们第一任期内的上司都说过，这个案子很薄弱，不应该提起诉讼。然而现在，我们不仅有了起诉书，还有大陪审团审查评估后表示同意。

So it sounds like we don't really know what the evidence is based on the indictment that came out tonight. But I do wanna reflect on something. All of these department justice lawyers and even their bosses in the first term said, this case is weak. You shouldn't bring it. And yet, we now have an indictment that was brought and a grand jury that looked at it, evaluated it, and said, yes.

我们应该起诉吉姆·科米。这是否意味着本案可能并不像那些检察官们认为的那么薄弱？

We should indict Jim Comey. So should that tell us that perhaps this case isn't as weak as all these prosecutors thought it was?

有可能。但回想那句老话——连火腿三明治都能被起诉，对吧？有个讽刺的说法是起诉某人极其容易，这归因于大陪审团的工作机制。嗯，我来解释一下。

It's possible. But think back to the old expression, you can indite a ham sandwich. Right? There is a cynical joke that it's extremely easy to indite someone, and that's because of the way the grand jury process works. Well, just explain that.

因为检察官是唯一提交证据的人。他们可以提交任何想要的证据，不需要大陪审团全体一致同意，只需12名陪审员对指控提议点头即可。

Because prosecutors are the only people who present evidence. They present whatever evidence they want. They don't need the grand jury to be unanimous. They just need, you know, 12 of the grand jurors to say yes to the proposed charges.

没错。而且12票通过就行，我记得通常陪审团是18人左右？

Right. And 12 out of, I think, what, normally 18 or so?

一般是15到18人，通常来说。获得起诉书后，真正的考验显然是在庭审阶段。但起诉的标准远低于定罪标准，特别是在庭审中。嗯。但本案的历史数据点——那些职业检察官的抵制态度——都表明这个案子并不扎实。

It's usually 15 to 18, you know, generally speaking. And then once you get the indictment, then the the real test is obviously in trial. But the standard for an indictment is much lower than the standard for a conviction, certainly at trial. Mhmm. But there's all these data points that the history of the case, the resistance from, you know, the the career prosecutors indicating that this case is not strong.

起诉书并未真正告诉我们此案是否有力。它实在太简短了，甚至基于文件本身都缺乏足够细节来做出判断。因此还有很多内容需要剖析，坦率地说，其中某些部分我们目前仍不清楚。

The indictment doesn't really tell us whether this case is strong. It's simply too short, and there's not enough detail in it to even make a judgment based on the paper. So there's a lot more to unpack about this, and there's, frankly, some of the parts of this we don't know yet.

所以大陪审团提出起诉的事实，并不必然证实其背后的证据，也无法告诉我们这些证据实际上有多强或多弱。

So the fact of an indictment from a grand jury does not necessarily ratify the underlying evidence or tell us how strong or weak it really is.

没错。起诉只是流程中的一个步骤，并非最终决议或结论。因此后续还有很多环节需要展开，特别是在法庭上，而且整个过程还将面临更激烈的交锋。

Right. An indictment is just one step in the process. It's not a resolution or a conclusion. So there's a lot more that has to play out, particularly in court, and there's a much bigger fight to be had along the way.

我们将在广告休息后继续讨论这场交锋以及本案的后续进展。

And we will talk about that fight and where this case heads next right after the break.

我是凯拉。我和丈夫共用他的邮箱登录《纽约时报》。每天我们都要竞争谁先玩「Connections」游戏。有时我登录应用，发现他当天已经完成了游戏。

My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access The New York Times. Each day, we compete for who gets to do Connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day.

我就会说：乔纳，今天轮到我了。而他总是回答：我知道，但我实在忍不住。

And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day. And he's like, I know I just couldn't resist.

如果能让我们以家庭账户形式用不同邮箱登录，那真是帮大忙了。我真的觉得这关系到我们夫妻关系的和谐。感谢你们考虑这个建议。

You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails. I really think our well-being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this.

凯拉，我们听到你的需求了。现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅计划，一个订阅最多支持四个独立账号，供您生活中的任何人使用。了解更多详情，请访问nytimes.com/family。

Kayla, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

那么德夫林，这项起诉接下来会如何发展？法律程序中的关键下一步是什么？

So, Devlin, where does this indictment go from here? What are the next key steps in this legal process?

下一步是科米将于十月初——具体是10月9日——就这项指控出庭应讯。这显然会是个戏剧性时刻，但我们在法庭上未必能了解到多少实质进展。考虑到已知检方内部对此案证据强度的质疑，我认为在进入审判阶段前，这份起诉书本身就会面临法律挑战。

Well, the next step is that Comey will be arraigned in court on this charge in early October, October 9. And that will obviously be a dramatic moment, but we won't necessarily learn much or have have much play out in court. I do think here, especially given what we know about the internal doubts about the strength of this case, I think you're gonna see some legal challenges to this indictment before it ever gets to trial.

本质上说，科米的律师团队会试图让起诉被驳回？

Essentially, Comey's lawyers are gonna attempt to have this tossed out?

我认为他们必定会这么做，因为特朗普公开施压要求起诉科米的情况已广为人知。检察官们也承认本案证据薄弱，很难想象会有律师不采取这样的辩护策略。

I have to think they will because there's already been so much in the public space about Trump demanding he be charged. Right. Prosecutors saying this is not a strong case. It's hard for me to imagine a lawyer who would not do that.

让我们具体谈谈特朗普的言论。当考虑到本案可能最终交由普通陪审团（而非大陪审团）审理时，如果真走到那一步，科米的律师很可能会援引特朗普公开宣称要惩罚科米的言论——包括他在社交平台要求司法部长'对付科米'的帖子，以及他解雇拒绝起诉此案的联邦检察官的行为——来主张本次起诉背后的动机存在腐败。我很好奇陪审团会如何看待这种辩护。

Well, let's talk about that, specifically what Trump has said. When we think about this case moving forward and potentially reaching a jury, not a grand jury, a regular old jury, I have to imagine if it gets to that point that Comey's lawyers will point to Trump's very public desire to punish Comey, including that true social posting, which he says to the attorney general, go after Comey, and to his firing of the US attorney who refused to bring the case and say that the motives behind this indictment are corrupt. And I wonder how that might play in a courtroom with a jury.

坦白说，这类问题更可能由法官而非陪审团来裁决。这种涉及案件外部因素的争议，通常需要法官在陪审团介入前先行处理。必须指出的是，政治迫害、选择性起诉这类辩护主张在法庭上鲜少成功。

So I'll be honest. That issue is more likely to play before the judge than the jury. That's the kind of sort of extraneous to the the case itself question that is more likely for a judge to have to wrestle with before a jury does. Got it. And I'll just say, as a general observation, those types of arguments, political persecution, unfair, selective prosecution, those sorts of arguments rarely succeed in court.

但你极少见到这类政治声明，以及施加在此案上的政治压力。因此，我不认为用常规法庭程序来推测此案进展是恰当的。

But you very rarely see the type of political statements, the type of political pressure brought to bear on this case. And so I don't think the normal course of court business is going to be a good way to think about how this particular case proceeds.

我想提出两种假设。第一种是此案交由陪审团裁决，尽管检方迄今存疑，陪审团仍判定詹姆斯·科米犯有伪证罪。试想一下这背后的含义与象征意义。

I wanna put out two scenarios. The first is one in which this case gets to a jury, and a jury decides, despite all the reservations of the prosecutors so far, that James Comey is guilty of perjury. Just contemplate for a moment what that would mean and what it would represent.

首先，我认为这将标志着特朗普与科米之间、特朗普与司法部之间、乃至特朗普与整个法律体系之间漫长纠葛的惊人转折。去年面临四项指控的这位总统，今年却成功促使司法部起诉了他可能最归咎于自身法律困境的人物——无论这是否公平。

Well, I think, first of all, it would represent an amazing moment in this entire saga between Trump and Comey, between Trump and the justice department, and between Trump and the legal system writ large. This was a a president who last year was facing four indictments. Mhmm. And this year has successfully gotten his justice department to indict the person he probably blames most for his legal problems, whether or not that's fair.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此我认为，若此案定罪——虽然远非定局——对特朗普而言，将是这场持续七八年之久的斗争中的某种胜利时刻，而且...

And so I think a conviction in this case, which I think is far from certain, would be sort of a moment of triumph for Trump in this battle that has gone on for seven, eight years and

还在继续。嗯。

counting. Mhmm.

我相信许多曾在司法部和FBI工作的人，已将此起诉视为极其悲哀且令人沮丧的事件。而由此衍生的任何定罪判决，其负面效应恐怕会放大十倍。

And I think a lot of people who have worked at the justice department, who have worked at the FBI, already view the indictment as a very sad and frustrating event. And I think any sort of conviction that drew out of this would be 10 times more so.

好吧，你把我带到了第二种情境。关于这一点，我的问题是——让我们暂且假设科米未被定罪，或者案件甚至未能提交陪审团。正如你所暗示的，对某些人而言，包括司法部内部的一些人，即便案件被驳回，对他们来说这已经越过了红线。

Well, you're bringing me to the second scenario. And the question I have about that, which is let's presume for a moment that Comey is not convicted or that the case never even reaches a jury. As you're hinting at, for some people, including some people inside the Department of Justice, even if it's tossed out, this is a case where for them, a red line has been crossed.

没错。我的意思是，有不少现任和前任司法部律师对我说过：'我所熟知的司法部已经死了。' 这正是许多曾在或正在那里工作的人所深切担忧的——他们极度担心特朗普似乎正从司法部获得他想要的一切，或者说大部分他想要的东西。你看——

Right. I mean, I've had people say to me, a number of current and former DOJ lawyers say to me, the Justice Department, as I knew it, is dead. Oh. That is very much the fear of a lot of people who either used to work there or currently work there and are worried greatly worried about the way in which Trump seems to be getting everything he wants or most of what he wants from the justice department. And, you know, look.

在科米案和其他案件中，他想要的显然是报复。我是说，

What he wants clearly in the Comey case and clearly in other cases is he wants retribution. Right. I mean,

根据他的表述以及这些律师的感知，他似乎已成功将对敌人的敌意转化为司法部的实际运作模式。如此一来，这个数十年来将独立于总统视为基石原则的机构，如今已公开直接接受总统指令，其独立性荡然无存？

what he has articulated and what it sounds like to these lawyers he has succeeded in doing is turning animus towards his enemies into really the modus operandi of the Department of Justice. And in doing so, turning an institution that for decades viewed its independence from the president as really a bedrock principle into an institution that openly now takes its orders directly from the president, where that independence is now vanished?

是的。我认为司法部不断变化的现状之一是人们的工作重点和关注焦点。每天，那些下达指令和接受指令的人都会承认，他们越来越多的工作就是执行特朗普总统的意愿。仅此而已。对许多接受指令的人来说，这是个令人不安且沮丧的命题。

Yeah. One of the things that I think is changing all the time at this justice department is what people work on and what people care most about. And every day, I think the people giving the orders in the department and taking the orders in the department would agree that more and more of their work is to do what president Trump wants. Period. And, you know, for some for a lot of the people receiving the orders, that is a very disturbing and upsetting proposition.

而对许多下达指令的部门人员而言，他们认为这就是他们的职责所在。嗯。

And for a lot of the people in the department who are giving the orders, they believe that's what they're there to do. Mhmm.

根据你所述，司法部内部有职业检察官——包括此刻在弗吉尼亚州办理此案的办公室成员——他们从未希望这项起诉走到当前阶段。那么你预期他们现在会采取什么行动？

From everything you've said, there are career prosecutors in the Department of Justice, including in the office prosecuting this case right now in Virginia, who never wanted this indictment to reach this point. So what is your expectation of what they will do now?

看。我认为这份起诉书中发生的最重要细节之一，是没有职业检察官签署它。只有特朗普亲自挑选的新任办公室负责人签署。这很不寻常吗？非常不寻常。

Look. I think one of the most important details of what happened in this indictment is that no career prosecutor signed it. It is only signed by Trump's handpicked new head of the office. Is that unusual? That's very unusual.

那么这或许是一种抗议行为？

So perhaps an act of protest?

既是抗议行为，也是不愿将自己的名字署在自己不认同的文件上。除此之外，起诉书公开后不久，该办公室的一名律师立即辞职。而那位律师恰好是科米先生的女婿。

An act of protest and an unwillingness to put your name on something that you don't believe in. In addition to that, right after the indictment became public, one lawyer in that office resigned. Now that lawyer in that office happens to be mister Comey's son-in-law.

世界真小。

Small world.

是啊。他基本上是说：听着，我辞职是为了捍卫宪法和履行对国家的责任。所以如果这份起诉书导致更多人辞职，我一点都不会感到惊讶。我可以告诉你，今年一整年，司法部有很多律师都面临艰难抉择——要么辞职，要么被解雇，因为他们拒绝执行那些他们认为律师不该做或根本错误的事。

Yeah. And he basically said, look. I am leaving to uphold the constitution and my duty to my country. So I I would not be at all surprised if you see other resignations come as a result of this indictment. And I will tell you, in the entirety of this year, there are a lot of DOJ lawyers who have had to make tough choices about resign or be fired because they're unwilling to do things that they are told to do that they think are unethical for lawyers or or just plain wrong.

你经常与这些检察官交谈。我想知道你对他们的想法有何了解。如果他们离开，接替者很可能是对现任政府越来越忠诚的律师，越来越倾向于提起类似针对科米的案件。如果他们留下，可能就得亲自处理这类案件。

You talk to these prosecutors all the time. I wonder what you've gleaned about how they're thinking about this. If they leave, they're likely to be replaced by lawyers more and more loyal to the present, more and more inclined to bring cases like the one against Comey. If they stay, then perhaps they have to bring those cases themselves.

没错。我接触过无数人都在纠结这个问题：是留下来努力改善局面更光荣，还是通过辞职或被解雇来抵制他们认为真正恶劣且不可接受的行为更光荣？我见过人们在这个问题上做出截然不同的选择，这取决于他们的个人立场以及具体哪个案件迫使他们面临这种抉择。我要说这其中存在几个动态因素。

Right. And I have talked to countless people wrestling with that very question. Is it more honorable to stay and try to make things better, or is it more honorable to leave or be fired resisting things that they think are truly bad and and unacceptable? I have seen people come down all over the map on that question for them personally and and for whichever case in particular is is sort of they feel is forcing them to make that kind of choice. I will say there there are couple dynamics to this.

其一，我认为现阶段面临这些选择的人们对司法部的现状及未来走向相当悲观。因此，预计会有更多人因各种问题选择离开。其二，整个司法体系中，法官乃至部分陪审员和大陪审团成员对特朗普司法部所作所为的正当性日益怀疑，这种趋势正愈发明显。

One is I think at this point, the people faced with those choices are pretty pessimistic about what's happening to the department and what will continue to happen to the department. And so I think you're gonna see a lot more people leave just for all sorts of issues. And two, I think one of the things you're seeing all around the system is growing skepticism from judges and even some jurors and grand jurors about the merits of what Trump's justice department is doing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这种质疑在此过程中持续发酵。已有多个重要案例显示陪审团直接否决，法官也频频批评检方决策。有充分理由相信这种现象不仅会延续，还可能进一步激化。

That has been growing as well through this process. There are significant instances already of jurors saying no, of judges criticizing prosecutorial decisions. There's every reason to think that that will continue and perhaps intensify.

德夫林，最后我想回到总统在Truth Social的帖子——他几乎是在公开要求起诉更多政敌，比如科米。根据你们记者的报道，我们知道他还盯上了在弹劾案中扮演关键角色的亚当·希夫、起诉过他的纽约总检察长莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯，以及他始终憎恨的政治对手希拉里·克林顿。

Devlin, I just wanna end by going back to the president's true social post in which he pretty much to indict more of his enemies like Comey. And we know based on the reporting of people like you who he has his eyes on. Adam Schiff for the role he played in Trump's impeachment. Leticia James, the attorney general of New York for the cases she's brought against Trump. Hillary Clinton for being a political foe who he has always loathed.

还有自由派金主乔治·索罗斯。说到底，你认为这场清算究竟会走多远？

George Soros, a liberal donor. How far in the end do we think this is actually gonna go?

以科米案为例，特朗普某种程度上已突破界限，从他眼中的'自家司法部'获得了梦寐以求的结果。但就在科米被起诉当天，他还签署备忘录，要求所有政府机构调查所谓'在美国街头煽动暴力的巨大阴谋'。我们当天就报道过，相关部门正试图用类似理由构陷乔治·索罗斯基金会。他想调查的人名单很长，要求关押的对象更是不计其数。

I think in the Comey case, you see an instance where he has, you know, in some ways broken through and gotten exactly what he's always wanted out of this justice department, out of what he views as his justice department. But also, the same day Comey's indicted, Trump also signs a memorandum basically telling all these government agencies to investigate what he calls this vast conspiracy to sow violence on the streets of America. We reported on the same day that there's this order going out to try to build a case against George Soros' foundation on in similar terms. He has a lot of people he wants investigated. He has a lot of people that he demands be thrown in jail.

没有理由认为这一切会止步于吉姆·科米。根据我们追踪的整个事态发展，科米起诉案显然只是这个司法部行动的开端。

There's no reason to think that this will stop with Jim Comey. And and and I think the process that we've watched, the things we're following, give every reason to think the indictment of Jim Comey is the start of what this justice department is going to do.

好的，迪伦，非常感谢你。感激不尽。

Well, Dylan, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

谢谢。

Thank you.

周四晚，特朗普总统在一篇社交媒体帖子中庆祝科米被起诉，称其为‘美国的正义’，并将科米描述为这个国家有史以来最恶劣的人之一。不久之后

On Thursday night, president Trump celebrated Comey's indictment in a social media post, calling it, quote, justice in America and describing Comey as one of the worst human beings this country has ever been exposed to. Soon after

我和家人多年来都知道，与唐纳德·特朗普对抗是要付出代价的，但我们无法想象自己以其他方式生活。

My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way.

科米本人对起诉做出了回应。

Comey himself posted a response to the indictment.

我深爱的一个人最近说，恐惧是暴君的工具，她说得对。但我并不害怕，希望你也一样。

Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right. But I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either.

他在回应中哀叹了特朗普总统领导下司法部的现状，但表示自己并不畏惧这次起诉。

In which he lamented the state of the justice department under president Trump but said that he was unafraid of his indictment.

我为司法部感到心碎，但我对联邦司法体系充满信心，我是无辜的。所以让我们进行审判并保持信念。

My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

《纽约时报》应用里有很多你可能没见过的内容。

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

所有不同版块的标签都排列在顶部。

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

我可以立刻找到与我当下情绪匹配的内容。

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

我总是去看比赛。

I go to games always.

玩玩填字小游戏。玩玩Wordle。

Doing the mini. Doing the Wordle.

我特别喜欢它让我接触到的大量内容，那些我从未想过会通过新闻应用获取的信息。

I loved how much content it exposed me to. Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

这款应用不可或缺。

This app is essential.

《纽约时报》应用，随时随地，尽在掌握。立即下载，请访问nytimes.com/app。

The New York Times app. All of the times, all in one place. Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

以下是今日其他你需要了解的要闻。

Here's what else you need to know today.

他称移民海关执法局的员工是来领肮脏薪水的人。

He called the ICE employees, people showing up to collect a dirty paycheck.

周四，美国德克萨斯州检察官表示，达拉斯移民拘留中心枪击案嫌疑犯留下的字条明确显示，他的目标是移民局探员及工作人员，而非最终被他枪击的三名被拘留者。

On Thursday, the US attorney for Texas said that notes left by the suspected shooter at an ICE facility in Dallas made clear that his target were ICE agents and personnel, not the three detainees that he ultimately shot.

他写道，意图是对移民局人员造成最大杀伤，并对设施造成最大财产损失。他似乎并无杀害或伤害被拘留者的意图。

He wrote that he intended to maximize lethality against ICE personnel and to maximize property damage at the facility. It seems that he did not intend to kill the detainees or harm them.

其中一名被拘留者后来因伤势过重死亡。特朗普总统宣布对进口药品、半挂卡车、厨房橱柜和家具实施新一轮关税，将于10月1日生效。药品关税引发了人们对广泛使用药物价格上涨的担忧，但白宫表示畅销药品将获得豁免。本期节目由罗伯·齐普科、香农·林和穆吉·扎伊迪制作，帕特里夏·威伦斯编辑，蕾切尔·奎斯特和罗伯·齐普科协助完成。

One of those detainees later died from his injuries. And president Trump has announced a new round of tariffs against imported pharmaceuticals, semi trucks, kitchen cabinets, and furniture that will take effect on October 1. The tariffs on pharmaceuticals have raised fears of higher price on widely used drugs, but the White House said that best selling medicines would be exempt. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Shannon Lin, and Mooj Zaidi. It was edited by Patricia Willens, with help from Rachel Questor and Rob Zipko.

节目配乐由丹·鲍威尔原创创作，由艾丽莎·莫克斯利负责音频工程。《每日》的工程师是克里斯·伍德和艾丽莎·莫克斯利，工程支持来自布拉德·费舍尔、麦迪·马西埃洛、尼克·皮特曼和凯尔·格兰迪洛。主题曲由Wonderly的本·兰斯福德和吉姆·布伦伯格创作。电台团队成员包括乔迪·贝克尔、罗文·伊米斯托、黛安·王和凯瑟琳·安德森。亚历山德拉·李·杨担任副执行制作人。

Contains original music by Dan Powell and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. The Daly's engineers are Chris Wood and Alyssa Moxley, with engineering support from Brad Fisher, Maddie Massiello, Nick Pittman, and Kyle Grandillo. Our theme song is by Ben Lansford and Jim Brundberg of Wonderly. Our radio team is Jody Becker, Rowan Imisto, Diane Wong, and Katherine Anderson. Alexandra Lee Young is our Deputy Executive Producer.

迈克尔·贝努瓦担任副主编。佩奇·考威特是《每日》的编辑。本·卡尔霍恩担任执行制作人。特别感谢保拉·舒曼、拉里萨·安德森、山姆·多尔尼克，以及节目创始编辑丽莎·托宾。以上就是本期《每日》的全部内容。

Michael Benoit is our Deputy Editor. Paige Cowet is the Editor of The Daily. Ben Calhoun is our Executive Producer. Special thanks to Paula Schuman, Larissa Anderson, Sam Dolnick, and to the founding editor of the show, Lisa Tobin. That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。周一见。

I'm Michael Bilbaro. See you on Monday.