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嗨。
Hi.
我是索拉娜·派恩。
I'm Solana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》的视频总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作的视频让你更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些由时报记者制作的视频拥有专业知识，帮助你理解正在发生的事情。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用中的观看标签页。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专门的视频流，你知道你可以信任你所看到的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
那里的所有视频都是免费供任何人观看的。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
你不必是订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
这里是《纽约时报》的访谈节目。
From The New York Times, this is the interview.
我是露露·加西亚-纳瓦罗。
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro.
自我们民主制度建立以来，就一直存在着权力分立。
Since the founding of our democracy, there's been a separation of powers.
特别是参议院，其设立初衷就是作为一支稳定力量，肩负自身重要职责。
The senate, in particular, was created to act as a stabilizing force with its own important responsibilities.
但在特朗普第二任总统任期近一年后，在他推行激进议程的这段时间里，参议院可以说比以往任何时候都更加弱势——一些评论家和参议员认为它正在放弃制衡总统权力的职责。
But after almost a year of the second Trump presidency, during which time he's pursued an aggressive agenda, the senate is arguably weaker than ever, with some critics and senators saying it is abandoning its role in checking presidential power.
所以今天，我将进行与节目往常不同的对话——一场关于参议院现状的圆桌讨论，三位决定离职的立法者将参与其中。
So today, I'm having a different kind of conversation than we usually do on the show, a roundtable about the state of the senate with three lawmakers who all decided to leave it.
共和党人杰夫·弗莱克曾代表亚利桑那州，他于2019年离职，并警告说特朗普主义对共和党的影响将对该党造成侵蚀。
Jeff Flake, a Republican, represented Arizona and left office in 2019, warning that the influence of Trumpism on the GOP would be corrosive to his party.
我们绝不能将民主规范和理想被频繁随意破坏的现象视为常态。
We must never regard as normal the regular and casual undermining of our democratic norms and ideals.
乔·曼钦曾代表西弗吉尼亚州，最初是经常与共和党人投票一致的民主党人，后来成为注册无党派人士。
Joe Manchin represented West Virginia, first as a Democrat who frequently voted with Republicans and later as a registered independent.
他于今年初离开了参议院。
He left the Senate at the start of this year.
我当选不是为了站队。
I was not elected to take a side.
我当选是为了代表各方利益。
I was elected to represent all sides.
蒂娜·史密斯是民主党人，目前代表明尼苏达州，今年早些时候宣布她将不会在2026年寻求连任。
And Tina Smith is a Democrat who currently represents Minnesota, and earlier this year announced that she won't be seeking reelection in 2026.
在公共部门辛勤耕耘二十年并收获回报后，我已准备好花更多时间陪伴家人。
After twenty years of hard and rewarding work in the public sector, I'm ready to spend more time with my family.
我邀请这三位人士相聚，是为了听取他们对参议院现状以及更广泛的政治和民主状况的看法。
I wanted to gather these three to get their read on the state of the senate and our politics and democracy more broadly.
以下是我与参议员弗莱克、曼森和史密斯的对话。
So here's my conversation with senators Flake, Mansion, and Smith.
我想感谢各位的到来。
I wanna thank you all for being here.
在这个华盛顿特区灰蒙蒙的冬日里，能邀请到各位真是莫大的荣幸。
It is a great pleasure to have you here on this sort of gray winter day in Washington DC.
你们三位都是已经离任或即将离任的参议员，而且都是在过去十年不同时期离开的。
You are all three former or soon to be former senators, and you all left at different periods of the last ten years.
坦白说，我希望正因为你们即将或已经离任，能更无拘束地畅谈真实想法。
And I'm hoping, frankly, that because you are leaving or have left, you will feel a little bit more unleashed in being able to discuss your true feelings and thoughts.
这就是我们离开的原因。
That's why we left.
没错。
Yeah.
那么首先，我想请各位用一个词或简短句子描述你们眼中参议院当前的状况。
So I wanna start by asking you all to give me a word or a sentence, something brief, that describes the state you think the senate is in right now.
我想先从你开始，史密斯参议员，因为你目前仍在这个机构任职。
And I wanna start with you, senator Smith, because you are actually sitting in said body.
嗯。
Mhmm.
支离破碎。
Broken.
弗莱克参议员？
Senator Flake?
或许是退缩。
Probably retreat.
你知道，在这个体系中，总统职位会随着时间推移自然而然地获得更多权力。
You know, in this system, presidency, just by virtue of the system gains more power over time.
但令人沮丧的是看到参议院主动放弃宪法第一条赋予的权力。
But what's been frustrating is to see the senate just willingly give up article one authority.
弃权。
Abducation.
他们已放弃了作为议员的基本职责。
They've they've abdicated basic responsibilities of what their purpose of being there.
参议院是世界上最独特的机构。
The Senate is the most unusual body in the world.
我们的建国先辈们正是这样设计的。
Our framers designed it to be that way.
阻挠议事程序是唯一准则的理念已深入我心。
It was ingrained in me, the filibuster's the only thing.
这是让我们持续对话、合作并成为朋友的圣杯。
It's the holy grail of keeping us talking and working and becoming friends.
杰夫属于共和党阵营，蒂娜和我当时在民主党阵营，但我们都是朋友，因为我们想办实事。
Jeff being on the Republican side, Tina and I at the time on the Democrat side, but we were all friends because we wanted to get things done.
我们深知参议院是实现这一目标的地方。
And we knew the Senate was the place to do it.
而他们却放弃了这类责任。
And they've abdicated that type of responsibilities.
我是说，这些话都相当悲观，我觉得。
I mean, those are all pretty bleak words, I think.
来形容这份声明。
To describe the statement.
要我们称他们为懦夫吗？
Want us to call them cowards?
你想让我们说什么，卢？
What do you want us to say, Lou?
我要你
I want you
说出你的真实想法。
to say what you think.
这里的回应相当直截了当。
Pretty straightforward responses here.
是啊。
Yeah.
似乎就是
Seems that's
直截了当很好。
straightforward good.
这些回应并不怎么乐观。
Responses and not terribly optimistic.
弗莱克参议员，当您离开参议院时
Senator Flake, when you left the senate
对。
Right.
您已在国会任职十八年，最初是众议员。
You had been serving in congress for eighteen years, first as a representative.
在您的一次议院演讲中，您发出过这样的警告，我在此引用原话：'当威权主义在一个又一个国家重新抬头时，让我们认识到我们绝非免疫于此。'
In a speech you gave on the floor, you gave this warning, and I'm gonna quote here, let us recognize as authoritarianism reasserts itself in country after country that we are by no means immune.
您认为您的担忧是正确的吗？
Do you think you are right to be concerned?
是的。
Yes.
毫无疑问。
Most definitely.
我并不是说我们正处于威权体制下。
I'm not saying that we're under an authoritarian system.
不。
No.
我们没有。
We're not.
但这种趋势确实存在，而且国会在多个领域放弃了责任，无论是战争权力、关税问题，还是本应属于参议院管辖的事务。
But that tendency, and certainly, congress has abdicated its responsibility on a number of areas, whether it's war powers, whether it's tariffs, issues that rightly belong in the senate.
长期以来参议员们通常都会极力维护自己的特权，但他们却心甘情愿地放弃了这些权力。
And senators have typically, over time, jealously guarded their prerogative, but they have willingly kinda given that up.
而现任总统则热衷于攫取他能得到的一切权力。
And you have a president who is eager to take just about everything he can get.
每位总统，无论是共和党还是民主党，都会在行政命令方面在某些方面有所突破。
Now every president, Republican and Democrat, will push some limits somewhere in terms of executive orders.
而这位总统显然将这种做法发挥到了极致。
This president, is doing that in spades, obviously.
正因如此，我们需要参议院能够挺身而出。
But that's why you need a senate, willing to stand up.
最近我们看到一些迹象表明，这种情况可能即将有所改变。
And we've seen inklings lately that, you might see some of that coming.
但是，这种改变来得实在太慢了，我当时就很担忧。
But, boy, it's it's been long in coming, and I was concerned then.
如今我更加担忧了。
I'm I'm more concerned today.
曼钦参议员，就在您离开参议院之前，您与民主党分道扬镳了。
Senator Manchin, just before you left the senate, you turned away from the Democrats.
您以独立人士身份进行了登记。
You registered as an independent.
在你最后的一些言论中，你称民主党品牌有毒。
And in some of your final words, you called the Democratic brand toxic.
最近你是否看到任何改变你对民主党方向看法的事情？
Have you seen anything lately that has changed your mind on the direction of the Democratic party?
首先，我所在的州是一个R40州。
Well, first of all, my state's an r 40 state.
没有比我的州更红的州了。
There's not a redder state than mine.
事情已经到了这个地步：当西弗吉尼亚州的工薪阶层，那些来自经济底层的人们——勤劳却贫困的人们——为何都离开了民主党？
And it got to the point where the people in West Virginia, when you have a total working class people coming from the lower echelon of the financial rung, okay, hardworking, poor people, why did they all leave the Democrat party?
就这样抛弃了他们。
And just kind of left them behind.
说实话，如果你想了解根本动机，很多人会告诉我：'乔，听着，华盛顿的民主党基本上花了更多精力、资源和时间去帮助那些有能力工作却不愿工作的健全人，而不是我们这些真正在努力工作的人。'
And really, if you wanna know the underlying motive was that a lot of these people would tell me, they said, Joe, listen, the Washington Democratic party basically has spent more effort, resources, and time for able-bodied capable people that should be working that don't work or won't work than those of us who do.
我已经受够了。
And I've had enough.
我无法回家向人们解释民主党目前的所作所为。
I can't go home and explain what we're doing as far as the Democratic party.
所以我告诉西弗吉尼亚州仍支持民主党的人，你们最好明确表示自己是独立的西弗吉尼亚州民主党人。
So people that are still Democrats in my state, I just says, you better make sure they understand you're an independent West Virginia Democrat.
因为如果你被贴上华盛顿民主党人的标签，还没开始竞选就已经落后十五到二十个百分点了。
Because if you get tagged as a Washington Democrat, you're underwater fifteen, twenty points before you start.
这对民主党来说是个警示。
I mean, that's a warning to the party
确实如此。
for sure.
我已经尽量说得委婉了。
Well, try to be as nice as I can.
我尽量实话实说，因为在某些深蓝地区，比如纽约市这样的地方，他们依然能存活并保持强势。
Try to be as truthful as I can because in some states, some blue and really blue areas, they still can survive and still have a strong New York City and different places like that may be still strong.
但我可以告诉你，如果想知道为何你们再也无法成为多数党——因为你们正在失去大部分农村工薪阶层的支持。
But I can tell you if you wanna know why you'll never be in the majority again, cause you're losing most of the working rural areas.
事实正是如此。
And that is what has happened.
好的。
Alright.
史密斯参议员，我想请教您，因为您说过您卸任是为了多陪家人，与政治无关。
Senator Smith, I'm going to turn to you because you've said you're stepping down to spend more time with family and that it has nothing to do with politics.
许多离职的政客都这么说。
A lot of politicians who leave say that.
这是标准说辞。
That is the classic line.
我在听。
I'm on.
告诉我们真相吧。
Tell us the truth.
当我说想多陪家人时，我是认真的，因为我真的很爱我的家人。
When I say I wanna spend more time with my family, I actually mean it because I really like my family.
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yep.
但我也提到了一些其他关于我离职的原因。
But I've also said a few other things about why I'm leaving.
是啊。
Yeah.
无论何时离职，可能都有个人原因，但总少不了职业因素。
Whenever you leave a job, it can be for personal reasons, but there's always professional reasons.
没错。
Yeah.
我注意到众议员贾里德·戈尔登同样即将卸任，他提到了政治丑恶现象和我们目睹的政治暴力，这些是他不再寻求连任的原因。
I noted that representative Jared Golden, who is also stepping down from the house, he talked about political nastiness and the political violence that we're seeing for reasons that he's not seeking reelection.
所以我想知道，这些问题是否也困扰着你？
So I'm just wondering, are those issues weighing on you too?
要知道，我早在2024年12月、2025年1月就决定不再竞选连任，而今年发生的一切更让我确信这个决定没错。
You know, I made the decision not to run for reelection, you know, in December, January 2025, and then everything that has happened this year has certainly not made me wonder whether I made the right decision.
我是说，我经历了挚友梅丽莎·霍特曼——明尼苏达州众议院荣誉议长——那场可怕的政治谋杀。
I mean, I had, you know, this horrible, political assassination of my dear friend Melissa Hortman, the speaker of the the emerita of the Minnesota house.
圣母领报学校枪击案就发生在我住处十个街区外。
We had the shooting of the Annunciation School, which is literally 10 blocks from where I live.
这些政治攻击的现实，当然还有此刻被美国总统煽动的氛围——他几周前刚说我两名同事和四位众议员该以叛国罪受审并处决。
And so the, the reality of these political attacks and, of course, in this moment, fueled by the president of The United States who just a couple of weeks ago said that two of my colleagues and four members of the house of representatives should be tried for treason and executed.
这些事自然都产生了影响。
Of course, these things all have impact.
但对我而言还有另一层原因，我大概...68岁左右了？
But, yeah, there was another part of it for me, which is that, I'm gonna I'm what is my 68 roughly?
明年我就68岁了。
I will be 68 next year.
对民主党参议员来说还算年轻呢。
Pretty young for a Democratic senator.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
It is.
没错。
Yes.
确实。
It is.
她在年龄谱系中算是年轻的，不是吗？
She's on the low end of the spectrum, aren't
你知道，我并不认为自己是非我不可的唯一人选。
I you know, I am not burdened by the belief that I am the only one who can do this job.
我对明尼苏达州后继有人充满信心，实际上，为这些新领导者腾出空间让我感到非常振奋。
I feel really confident in the the bench that is there in Minnesota to carry on, and I'm actually quite invigorated by making space for those leaders to step in.
当我离开时，我从没说过想多陪陪家人这种话。
When I left, I I didn't I never said I wanna spend more time with family.
我爱我的家人，但我本希望能再连任一届。
I love my family, but I would have I would have liked to have served another term.
我是说，你费尽千辛万苦进入这个世界上最排外的俱乐部，不会只想待一届就离开。
I mean, you you don't get all the way to the most exclusive club in the world and just wanna stay one term.
所以我本希望连任，但这样做的代价将是我必须背弃自己曾宣称信仰的那些原则。
So I would've liked to, but the price for doing so would've been It would've been for me to say, you know, those principles I said I believed in, I no longer do.
而这个代价太过高昂，我赌不起。
And the cost, the price for that was too steep to bet.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们这些经历过艰难选战的人都知道，当你面对某些情况时，你会变成另一种人——如果你本不是那种人的话。
Those of us who've been in these tough races before, when you're facing something, you know what's gonna turn you into a different animal than you're not.
我了解你，也了解蒂姆。
I know you and I know Tim.
我认为我们都不是那种人。
That's not who we are, I don't think.
但如果我们想继续前进，就不得不变成另一种人。
But we'd had to turn into another animal if we wanted to go on.
我从未经历过一场将对手视为敌人的选举。
I've never faced an election where I thought the other side was the enemy.
我从参与的每一场选举和辩论中都学到了东西。
I learned from every election I was in, a debate.
选举结束后，我大多都赢了。
And after the election was over, I won most of them.
所以我会打电话给对方。
So I'd call the person.
我说，你在辩论中提出了一些不错的观点。
I said, You you had some good ideas in that debate.
我说，我们能就此谈谈并开始建立关系吗？
I said, Can we talk about that and start building relationships?
那种方式已经不复存在了。
That's gone.
我要说这种做法现在不流行了，但我认为它并未消失。
I'll say that's not in vogue now, but I don't think it's gone.
我认为它可以卷土重来。
I think it can return.
没错。
That's right.
我也认为它没有消失。
I don't think it's gone either.
而且我对此还没有放弃希望，乔。
And I haven't given up hope on that, Joe.
相信它依然存在
Believe that it's still I
永不放弃。
never give up.
我知道不会的。
I know don't.
我今天只是在面对现实。
I'm just dealing with reality today.
我所看到的，杰夫，你可以谈谈这个，你来自众议院。
The things that I see, Jeff, and you can talk about this, you came from the house.
我曾担任州长，那是最具协作精神的机构之一。
I came from being a governor, which is the most collegial of all institutions.
你可以去参加全国州长协会的会议。
You can go to a governor's national governor association.
如果我不知道那个人是共和党人，你根本看不出区别。
If I didn't know that that person was a Republican, you could not tell the difference.
我们都在为解决同样的问题而努力。
We're all working for the same, curing the same problems.
在众议院，你们只需简单多数218票就能通过议案。
The house, you all operate on simple majority, two eighteen.
甚至都不需要理会另一方。
Don't even have to acknowledge the other side.
如果你不愿意，甚至都不需要让他们参与进来。
Don't even have to let them be involved if you don't want to.
我注意到越来越多的众议员带着这种心态进入参议院，使得参议院更难保持其协作精神。
I kept noticing more and more congress people that kept coming to the Senate with that mindset made it harder for the Senate to stay collegiate.
哦，确实如此。
Oh, definitely.
我说得对吗？
Am I right?
是的，完全正确。
Yes, completely.
众议院真正的转变发生在1956年2月。
The real turn in the house came 02/1956.
我是2001年到那里的，当时我们虽然没有正式采纳，但基本上遵循了所谓的哈斯特尔特规则。
I I got there in 2001, when we didn't adopt formally, but basically lived by the the so called Hasturt rule.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
而且那并不是Hasturt规则。
And it wasn't Hasturt.
实际上是汤姆·迪莱和其他少数人。嗯。
It was really Tom DeLay and a few others Mhmm.
他们基本上是说，如果你作为共和党人要把某项议案提交到议院——当时我们在多数党席位上有更大优势——那么你应该能仅凭共和党的票数通过它。
Who basically said, if you're gonna bring something to the floor as a Republican and we had a bigger cushion at that time in the majority, but that you should be able to pass it just with Republican votes.
而且如果它可能获得两党支持的话...对吧。
And and if it might gather bipartisan support Right.
那么，你知道的，就删掉一些条款让它失去吸引力。
Then, you know, knock some provisions off so it won't be attractive.
然后你就可以在下次选举时把这个当作攻击武器。
And then you use that as a cudgel during the next election.
你知道的，有些人就是在这种体制下逐渐成长为政治人物的，我想，其中一些人后来进入了参议院。
And that, you know, you had people kind of mature as politicians, I guess, under that system, and some of them have gone to the senate.
我是说，这就是米奇·麦康奈尔的原话。
I mean, this is what Mitch McConnell said.
比如，我的目标就是击败奥巴马。
Like, our my purpose is to beat Obama.
渐渐地，党派之争愈演愈烈。
And gradually, the partisanship just ramped up.
听你们说这些挺有意思的，这也是我邀请你们来的原因之一——你们对局势演变有着长远的观察。
You know, it's funny listening to you all, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to bring you here because you have the long view of how we got here.
显然，我们现在所处的时代之前就已经存在这些问题了。
And, clearly, all of this predates the era that we're in now.
但这个时代确实让情况更加恶化了。
But this era has supercharged Yes.
是啊。
Yeah.
你们讨论的所有这些。
All of what you're discussing.
你刚才提到了对参议院现状的主要批评之一，这也是我在与参议员丽莎·穆尔科斯基交谈时听到的观点：无论党派属性如何，现在的参议院根本没有履行其职责。
And you've touched on one of the main critiques of the senate right now, and it's something I heard when I sat with senator Lisa Murkowski, which is that the senate is now regardless of the partisan nature, it's just not doing its job.
它没有起到对行政部门的制衡作用。
It's not acting as a check on the executive.
我很想听听你们的看法，你们认为这是国会权力持续衰退的转变吗？
And I would love for you to just discuss, do you think that this is an enduring shift away from congressional power?
我不认为这是永久性的状态。
I don't think it's an enduring condition.
我认为这与领导力有关。
I I think it has to do with leadership.
我观察了民主党和共和党方面的潜在候选人，你会发现有些人会试图效仿特朗普总统的做法，通过集权来架空众议院和参议院。
I I look at the potential field on the Democratic and Republican side, and and, you see some who will try to, you know, replicate what president Trump has done in terms of amassing power and just kinda stiffing the house and the senate.
但绝大多数我最熟悉的共和党参议员
But the vast majority of Republican senators who I'm most familiar with
嗯。
Mhmm.
对此非常不满。
Don't like this at all.
他们希望重申自己的特权。
They want to reassert their prerogatives.
他们知道参议院素有'世界上最审慎的机构'之称，他们希望能重拾审议的传统。
They know that the senate, you know, has the reputation of being the world's most deliberative body, and they'd like to get back to deliberating.
所以我确实认为，这种状况并非必须持续，但我们从未见过总统权力被主动归还的时期。
So I I I do think that, this isn't a condition that that has to stay, but we've never seen a time when presidential powers have been given back.
正如我之前所说，总统...
The president, as I was saying before
看到最高法院对此的裁决，而且...
seeing the supreme court ruling on this, and and
算是吧。
sort of Yeah.
这实质上是在将其法律化。
It's it's making it law, essentially.
是的。
Yeah.
但总统现在积累并行使的权力已远超最高法院授予他的范围。
But the president has amassed far more power and is using far more power than the Supreme Court has granted him now.
这尚未被编入法典。
It's not being codified.
而且，是的。
And, yes.
没有
Not
目前还没有。
yet.
所以你会...是的。
So you'll Yeah.
我认为，我的感觉是，我完全同意杰夫的观点，在幕后你会听到许多参议院共和党人说，我不喜欢这样。
I think it's you know, my sense of it is that I completely agree with Jeff that you behind the scenes, you will hear many Republicans in the senate say, I don't like this.
我认为这是不对的。
I don't think this is right.
但他们也说，我们只是在等待合适的时机。
But then they also say, we're just waiting for the right moment.
是的。
Yeah.
我们等待合适的时机来真正采取行动。
We're waiting for the right moment to actually do something about it.
与此同时，参议院和立法机构的权力——我是说，这些权力正从国会大厦源源不断地流失。
And meanwhile, the powers of the senate and the powers of the legislative branch are I mean, they're gushing out of the capital.
我的意思是，不仅仅是参议院。
I mean and it's not just the senate.
我是说，议长让美国众议院休会了多少天来着？
I mean, what the speaker did to keep the US House of Representatives out of session for how many days was it?
你知道，七周，这真的是对责任和权力的惊人放弃。
You know, seven weeks, was was really an incredible abdication of responsibility and authority.
所以我觉得很有趣，因为我一直对参议院里所有人的人际关系非常着迷。
So it's interesting to me because I've I'm always so fascinated by the interpersonal relationships of everybody in the senate.
而在我看来，此刻感到最受背叛的是我的民主党同僚们，他们把职业生涯押注在跨党派合作以成就事业上。
And the people that I see that seem to feel the most betrayed right now are my Democratic colleagues who stake their careers on working across party lines to accomplish thing.
他们曾是那些'帮派'的一员。
They were part of the gangs.
他们参与了——你知道的——乔，你在基础设施法案方面做了大量工作。
They were in the the you know, so much of the work that you did, Joe, around the infrastructure act.
他们感觉民主党和共和党之间的信任纽带已经彻底破裂，因为参议院共和党人基本上对总统唯命是从——不仅纵容他撤销我们的预算法案，更违背自身判断确认了一些极其糟糕的提名人选，比如小罗伯特·肯尼迪和国防部长。
And and they feel as if the bonds of trust between Democrats and Republicans have been so broken because of the ways in which Republicans in the senate have just basically kowtowed to to the president, not only on the, you know, on the fact of basically allowing him to undo our budget bills, but, I mean, on the ways that they've kind of confirmed against their better judgment, I would argue, some of these really terrible nominees like RFK junior and, like, the secretary of defense.
所以问题部分在于——我认为这是我和乔的分歧点。
So part of the problem, I believe, this is where I think Joe and I differ.
或许我与在座两位同僚都有分歧。
Maybe we we I differ from both of my colleagues here.
我认为参议院议事规则已完全阻碍了参议院的行动能力。
I think that the senate rules have so completely stymied the ability of the senate to do anything.
我指的不只是阻挠议事规则。
And I'm not just talking about the filibuster.
我认为必须找到方法让参议院的制度运作得更好。
I think there's gotta be a way of figuring out how to make the systems of the senate work better.
因为你想要废除阻挠议事规则。
Because you'd like to get rid of the filibuster.
我是说，
I mean,
我至少希望能改革它，这样如果要阻挠议案，至少得站在该死的议场上发言。
I would at least like to reform it so that if you're gonna filibuster a bill, ought to at least have to stand on the damn floor and talk.
我们完全赞同这一点。
And we're exactly like on that.
而不是简单地说，哦，我不喜欢这个，所以我要反对，然后就去吃晚饭了。
Instead of just saying, oh, I don't like this, so I'm gonna I'm gonna object and then, you know, go out for dinner.
每位拥有多数席位的总统
Every president, who has a majority
确实。
Sure.
他们
They
都想废除阻挠议事规则，每位参议员都应抵制这种做法。
all want wanna get rid of the filibuster, and every senate ought to resist that.
坚决抵制。
Totally resist it.
无论是共和党还是民主党。
Republican or Democrat.
因为这是为数不多能迫使人们合作的机制之一。
Because it is one of the few mechanisms left that forces people to work together.
过去八年我一直在观察参议院，但我并未看到阻挠议事规则是治愈党派分歧的良药。
I've I've I've watched the senate for the last eight years, and I have not seen that the filibuster is the pill to cure partisanship.
我看到的是党派分歧——当然，有时需要获得60票多数确实能催生强有力的立法，比如基础设施和就业法案。
What I see is that partisanship is in I mean, sometimes, certainly, the need to find a 60 vote majority creates strong pieces of legislation like the infrastructure and jobs act.
但有时，它恰恰形成了阻碍美国人真正想完成之事得以实现的制度。
But sometimes, it creates the very systems that make it very difficult for the things that Americans wanna get done to actually get done.
我想再回到这个话题。
I wanna come back to this.
但在那之前，我对政党领导层的问题感到好奇。
But before we do, I am curious about the problem of party leadership.
例如，参议院少数党领袖查克·舒默在民主党基层并不受欢迎。
For example, senator Chuck Schumer, the senate minority leader, isn't popular with the Democratic base.
而史密斯参议员，你是一个所谓‘战斗俱乐部’的成员，该组织正寻求更换领导层。
And senator Smith, you are part of a so called fight club that is looking to get new leadership.
你能解释一下你认为需要什么吗？
Can you explain what you think is needed?
各政党的领导层是否也是当前问题的部分原因？
And is the leadership of the respective parties part of what's going on here?
在一个正常运作的立法机构中，你会认为民主党领袖和共和党领袖会经常沟通，对吧？他们应该试图解决问题，推动事务进展。
Well so in a functioning legislative body, you would think that the Democratic leader and the Republican leader would talk to each other all the time, right, to try to figure things out, try to try to get things going.
参议院中的党派分歧已经到了如此严重的程度，以至于这种情况已不复存在。
The level of partisanship in the senate is at such a degree that that it just doesn't happen anymore.
我所属的非正式团体是一群参议员，我们主要对领导人在确定各州候选人选择方式上的做法表示不满和抱怨。
The informal group that I am a part of is a group of senators who have been complaining and unhappy primarily with the ways in which the leader has been identifying what candidates he wants to run-in what states.
这主要是关于民主党参议院竞选委员会（DSCC）在选举工作方面的运作方式。
It has been primarily about that kind of, like, how the elections of the work of the DSCC
这很有趣，因为当我与舒默参议员交谈时，他将此标榜为自己最大的优势——他确实能选出胜选的候选人。
Which is interesting because when I spoke to senator Schumer, he touted that as his greatest sort of strength, that he really can choose candidates that win.
比如在缅因州，77岁的州长珍妮特·米尔斯对阵41岁且更进步的格雷厄姆·普拉特纳。
And so, you know, you get a governor Janet Mills running in Maine at 77 against a Graham Plattner who's 41 and and more progressive.
这实际上就引发了党内竞争。
And so, you know, that sets up an intra party fight.
是的。
Yes.
我认为确实如此。
I think it does.
需要澄清的是，我尚未在缅因州或明尼苏达州支持任何候选人，因为我认为应该由选民来决定。
To be clear, I haven't endorsed anybody in Maine, but I haven't endorsed anybody in Minnesota yet either because I think that it should be up to the voters to decide.
我支持缅因州的苏珊·柯林斯。
I'm endorsing Susan Collins in Maine.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
如果连苏珊·柯林斯都保不住，那参议院就真的岌岌可危了。
They get rid of a Susan Collins, then you're really losing the senate.
持这种想法的人，我们甚至都无法说服他们参选了。
People that have that mindset, we can't even get them to run anymore.
优秀的人才
Good people in
中间派。
the middle.
如果你看看参议院，你提到了查克·舒默，有些人会认为他们过于党派化，无法成事，永远不会跨党派合作。
If you look in the senate and you mentioned Chuck Schumer, and some people will look at them and say they're too partisan to get anything done they won't ever reach across the aisle.
嗯，他们过去确实这么做过。
Well, they have in the past.
我曾是'八人帮'的一员。
I was part of a gang of eight.
嗯。
Mhmm.
与查克·舒默和迪克·德宾一起。
With Chuck Schumer and Dick Durbin.
移民工作。
Immigration work.
是的。
Yes.
关于移民问题。
On immigration.
我们通过了一项法案
We passed a bill
六十八
Sixty eight
八比三十二
eight to 32.
那是我们所见过的参议院按传统方式运作的最后几个例子之一
That was one of the last examples we've seen of the senate working how it used to work.
我的意思是，现在我们看着某些人物说他们永远做不到这些事
My point is some of the same characters that we now look at and say, they could never do this.
哦，他们
Oh, they're
他们能做到，而且过去就曾做到过
They they can, and they have in the past.
没错
Right.
但现在的激励机制完全错位了
But the incentives are so misaligned right now.
我想知道你对共和党领袖约翰·图恩的看法，普遍认为他对特朗普不那么阿谀奉承。
I'm wondering what you think of Republican leader John Thune, who broadly people view him as being less obsequious to Trump.
对吧？
Right?
嗯哼。
That Mhmm.
根据批评者的说法，他并不完全像众议院议长约翰逊那样，后者几乎完全按照白宫的指示行事。
He's not exactly like speaker of the House Johnson according to critics who really takes everything that he's doing from the White House.
话虽如此，他被指责通过允许一系列简单多数表决来逐步削弱阻挠议事规则，《纽约客》称之为'参议院无关紧要的时代'的到来。
That said, he has been accused of sort of chipping away at the filibuster by allowing a number of simple majority votes, ushering in what the New Yorker called the age of senate irrelevance.
所以弗莱克参议员，你认为他为何如此软弱？
So senator Flake, I mean, why do you think he's so weak?
他真的那么软弱吗？
Is he so weak?
嗯，我之前提到过，仍有一批共和党参议员希望参议院能恢复旧貌，成为一个审议机构，而非受总统操控。
Well, when I mentioned, before that there are still a core of Republican senators who want the senate to be like it used to be, like a deliberative body and not have the the president control that.
他是其中之一，而且他是个制度主义者。
He's one of them, and, he's institutionalist.
但是，前几天当总统说要废除阻挠议事时，约翰·图恩的回应是‘我们没有足够的票数’，这倒是事实。
But, when, John Thune said the other day, when the president, you know, said get rid of the filibuster, John Thune's response was, we don't have the votes, which is true.
我更希望他能说‘这是个糟糕的主意，总统先生’。
I would have liked him to say, that's a terrible idea, mister president.
我们不会那么做。
We're not gonna do it.
所以，从外部看，当他们不愿直接表态比如在关税问题上会采取什么行动时，我确实有时会感到沮丧。
So, yeah, from the outside, I I certainly am frustrated sometimes when they won't just say, you know, what they're gonna do are on tariffs.
实际上，应该在那里收回你的权力，并且一定要走在最高法院前面。
Actually, pull your power back there and, and certainly get ahead of the Supreme Court.
你不想看到自己在总统面前显得过于软弱。
You don't want to see, you know, you're weak enough for the president.
你既不想表现得软弱，也不想跟随最高法院的裁决，或是让他们替你打这场仗。
You don't wanna be weak and and follow what the Supreme Court does or have them fight your battles for you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我，是啊。
So I yeah.
我有时会感到沮丧，但我确实认为他是一位在某些方面、常常在现有政治环境下尽力而为的参议员，试图让参议院重回正轨。
I I'm frustrated sometimes, but I I do think that he certainly is a senator that is, in some ways, and often doing the best he can given the political situation, to get the senate back.
而且我认为在
And I and I think under
不过他的权力回归了。
his power back, though.
为什么？我的意思是，他可是参议院多数党领袖。
Why I mean, he is the senate majority leader.
他为什么不做呢？
Why isn't he doing it?
嗯，他是党团成员。
Well, he's caucus.
我猜他得好好考虑一下。
I guess he has to look at it.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且如果你真那么做，每天都会收到愤怒的推文。
And and you you you get, angry tweets every day if you if you do.
确实，这很难办。
And, no, that's tough.
没错。
Yes.
噢，绝对是的。
Oh, definitely.
所以这确实很棘手。
And so that that's difficult.
你懂我意思吧？
You know?
直到现在，总统都能对国内任何共和党席位说：如果你不按我说的做，我就能给你找个初选对手。
And and up to now, the president has been able to, in any Republican seat in the country, say, I can get a primary opponent for you if you don't do what I say.
这是一种强大的政治激励。
That's a powerful political incentive.
我们可能希望情况有所不同，但这就是我大多数前同事所处的激励结构。
We may like it to be different, but that's the incentive structure that most of my former colleagues are working under.
他们不喜欢这样，但现在已经深陷其中。
They don't like it, but they're in it now.
我得出的结论是，有两件事会改变美国的政治格局。
I've come to the conclusion there's two things that'll change that would change politics in America.
首先，就国会而言，将是任期限制。
First, as far as in Congress would be term limits.
要是放在十到十五年前，我绝不会支持任期限制。
Ten, fifteen years ago, I would've never been supportive of term limits.
好吧。
Okay.
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有一次我参加了一个集会。
And I was at a rally one time.
我当时是州长，举办了一场大型市政厅集会。
I was governor and had a big town hall rally.
后排有位小个子女士说，嘿，乔，她说，我们真希望你支持任期限制。
Little lady got in the back and she says, boy, Joe, she says, we wish you were for term limits.
我说，她叫苏茜。
And I said, and her name was Susie.
我说，苏茜，我理解你的出发点。
I said, Susie, I said, I understand where you're coming from.
我说，但你会失去很多现有的制度知识、权力和所有这些优秀人才。
I said, but you're gonna lose a lot of the institutional knowledge you have and the power and all these good people.
她说，乔，想想这个。
She said, Think of this, Joe.
如果我们有任期限制，也许你能勇敢地干满一届好任期。
If we had term limits, maybe we get one good courageous term out of you.
也许你愿意做正确的事，至少干出一届好政绩。
Maybe you'd be willing to do the right thing, at least one good term from you.
她对我说道。
She told me.
我无言以对。
I didn't have any argument back.
我说：好吧。
I said, Fine.
从此我就一直支持任期限制。
And I've been for it ever since.
还有开放式初选——我举个开放式初选的例子。
And open primaries, and I'll give you an example of open primaries.
要不是阿拉斯加采用排序复选投票或开放式初选，我们的朋友丽莎·穆尔科斯基根本不可能通过初选当选。
Our friend Lisa Murkowski would not get elected through the primary process in Alaska if it wasn't for the, ranked choice voting or open primaries.
当你能操控初选时——这赋予了特朗普总统，或是民主党总统在深蓝州或深红州的权力，让他们能随心所欲地提名人选，或在初选中淘汰你等等。
When you can control primary, and that's what gives president Trump, or it gives a Democrat president the power in a real blue state or red state, knowing that they have that power to name who they want or primary you or this or that.
开放式初选，砰的一声。
An open primary, boom.
你知道的，你就置身其中。
You know, you're out there.
最优秀的人会胜出。
The best will succeed.
如果有五六个州像阿拉斯加那样实行开放式初选法，参议院的权力结构将彻底改变。
If you had five or six states with open primary laws like Alaska has, that would create a whole different power structure in the senate.
嗯，这里，你就是个绝佳例子，因为你们亚利桑那州的初选类型是...还是什么来着？
Well, here, you're you're a perfect example of that because in your type of primaries in Arizona or what?
对。
Yeah.
如果我们采用阿拉斯加那种模式，那我就会竞选连任。
If if we had the the Alaska style thing, then I would run for reelection.
广告之后，我们将探讨为何国会在解决选民最关心的问题上如此困难。
After the break, we talk about why congress has so much trouble fixing the things voters care about most.
我们常常会陷入这种思维：你是温和派吗？
We often kind of get sucked into this sort of is this you moderate?
你是进步派吗？
Are you progressive?
就像问，你在光谱的哪个位置？
Like, where do you fall in the continuum?
实际上我认为这种光谱划分完全不对。
I actually don't think that's the right continuum at all.
我认为问题在于你是否认为现状基本可行，还是需要从根本上改变。
I think it's a question of whether you actually think that the status quo is pretty much working, whether you think that it needs to be fundamentally changed.
我是苏珊·李。
I'm Susan Lee.
我是《每日播报》的研究员兼事实核查员。
I'm a researcher and fact checker with The Daily.
我的工作是确保节目中的细节准确无误。
What I do is make sure details in our episodes are accurate.
我还会花大量时间核实节目嘉宾说的几乎每句话。
I also spend a lot of time reviewing pretty much anything a guest on the show says.
比如说他们在描述某人毛衣的颜色。
Let's say they're describing the color of someone's sweater.
如果我发现这个人实际穿的是蓝色毛衣而非红色，就必须确保我们对此进行修正。
If I find out this person actually wore a blue sweater instead of a red one, I have to make sure that we address it.
可能有人觉得这类细节无关紧要，但对我们来说，节目中的每个事实都很重要。
And I guess some might think that this kind of stuff is trivial, but for us, every single fact in an episode matters.
我们都会犯错。
We all make mistakes.
毕竟都是凡人。
We're all human.
而我的职责就是提供这层额外保障。
But my job is to be that extra layer.
《每日》是《纽约时报》旗下的栏目。
The Daily is part of The New York Times.
我们竭尽全力确保事实准确无误。
We do everything we can to make sure we get the facts right.
正是订阅用户的支持让我们能够做到这一点。
Subscribers make it possible for us to do that.
如果您想订阅《纽约时报》，请访问nytimes.com/subscribe。
If you want to subscribe to The New York Times, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.
让我提出这个两党合作梦想的反论点：我们走到今天这一步，是否正是因为参议院在应对选民实际问题上效率低下？
Let me give you the counterpoint to this dream of bipartisanship, which is, did we get here perhaps because the senate's been ineffective at responding to the real problems that voters have?
因为它是渐进式的。
Because it's incremental.
现在已经没有什么大动作了。
There's just not any big swings anymore.
我的意思是，目前人们似乎都在呼吁能解决他们实际问题的这些想法。
I mean, people at the moment seem to be clamoring for these ideas that can solve their very real problems.
在当下这种时刻，渐进主义（可能被视为两党合作）真的能解决问题吗？
Does incrementalism, which can read as bipartisanship, actually get the job done at a moment like
这个？
this?
嗯，
Well,
我认为这正是问题的关键。
I think that this is exactly the issue.
如果你回顾过去大约二三十年的美国人，绝大多数人都表示他们认为事情正朝着错误的方向发展，他们已竭尽全力工作，但情况却毫无实质改变。
If you look at Americans over the last, probably, what, twenty, thirty years, significant majorities of Americans have said that they think that things are terribly on the wrong track, that they're working as hard as they possibly can and nothing is really changing.
因此，如果一个治理机构没有能力做出必要的重大变革，人们当然会感到沮丧。
And so, like, if you have a governing body that isn't capable, hasn't been capable of making the big changes that need to be made, of course, people are gonna be frustrated.
我觉得特别有趣的是，因为我们常常陷入这种讨论——你是温和派吗？
And what I think is so interesting, because we often kind of get sucked into this sort of is this, you know, are you moderate?
你是进步派吗？
Are you progressive?
就像问，你在这个光谱上处于什么位置？
Like, where do you fall in the continuum?
我完全不认为这是正确的连续体。
I actually don't think that's the right continuum at all.
我认为问题在于你是否真的认为现状基本可行，还是认为需要从根本上改变。
I think it's a question of whether you actually think that the status quo is pretty much working, whether you think that it needs to be fundamentally changed.
美国人正在告诉我们，现状对他们不起作用。
And Americans are telling us that the status quo is not working for them.
他们告诉我们，那些可能被视为进步的政策，实际上有75%的支持率。
And they're telling us that things that maybe would be seen as being, like, progressive, it's actually, like, 75% issues.
带薪家庭和医疗假、人们负担得起的儿童保育、提高最低工资。
Paid family and medical leave, child care that people can afford, raise the minimum wage.
甚至全民医保这种被视为极其激进的提案，大多数美国人都希望彻底改革我们的医疗体系。
I mean, even Medicare for all, which is seen as being incredibly radical, more a majority of Americans wanna see a complete revamping of our health care system.
所有这些都表明，我们需要一个能够推动这类重大变革的参议院和国会。
So all of that argues to me that we need a body, a senate, and a congress that's capable of making those kinds of big changes.
好吧，我主张渐进主义。
Well, I make the case for in incrementalism.
作为保守派意味着要维护那些行之有效的保守制度或机构，而参议院长期以来一直运作良好。
Being a conservative means preserving conservative or institutions that work, and the senate has worked over time.
因此渐进主义正是你所需要的。
And so incrementalism is what you want.
这就是为什么我喜欢阻挠议事规则，例如，因为它确实有所帮助。
That's why I like the filibuster, for example, because you it helps.
它并不能彻底解决问题，但能防止民意像众议院那样出现剧烈的左右摇摆，这种做法对国家很有利。
It doesn't cure it completely, but it helps from having wide swings of, you know, popular opinion, back and forth like you have in the house, and that has served the country well.
所以我不认为这是问题所在。
So I don't think that that's the problem.
我认为乔·曼钦总是站在每场两党斗争的中心，为每项寻求两党支持的法案呼吁妥协。
I think I I look at Joe Manchin was always in the middle of every bipartisan fight, every bill that looked for bipartisan support saying, hey.
妥协才是这里的通行法则，因为谁都不希望出现这种剧烈摇摆。
Compromise is the coin of the realm here because you don't wanna have these wide swings.
要知道有句老话叫'近墨者黑'。
You know, there used to be an old saying, you're guilt by association.
如果某人是个坏角色，而你还在和他们共事交谈，人们就会认为你肯定支持他们。
If someone was a bad actor and you're working and talking to them, they think, well, you must support that.
现在这成了‘交谈即有罪’。
Now it's guilt by conversation.
你甚至不能被人看到与观点不同的人交谈。
You can't even be seen having a conversation with someone who might not be on the same.
这对我来说太荒谬了，我从不认同这种观念。
That is so ridiculous to me that I never did subscribe.
而民主党人却因我跨党派合作而责怪我。
And the democrats chastise me for working across.
我的意思是，在参议院这种地方，妥协才是王道，因为你不想看到政策像钟摆一样剧烈摇摆。
I mean, there's this perception that those people who are fortunate enough in a closely divided senate to wield a lot of power because they
我不建议任何人这样做。
I don't recommend that on anybody.
我绝不推荐这种做法。
I do not recommend it.
但如果这种情况发生，就要做好准备。
But if it happens, be ready.
公平。
Fair.
但他们处于这个位置，却一直在阻挠——我这是在给你反方观点。
But they sit in this position, and they are obstructing I'm giving you the counterargument.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
阻碍实际进展。
Obstructing actual progress.
我是说，你认识詹姆斯·卡维尔吧，那位自诩中间派的资深民主党策略师，显然曾为比尔·克林顿效力。
I mean, you've seen James Carville, the longtime Democratic strategist who is self described as a centrist, obviously worked for Bill Clinton.
他最近主张，比如说，民主党需要以——我直接引用他的话——'一个全面、激进、直白、毫不掩饰且旗帜鲜明的纯粹经济愤怒纲领'来竞选，并最终立法。
And he recently argued that, for example, Democrats need to run on and presumably eventually legislate on, and I'm gonna quote her, a sweeping, aggressive, unvarnished, unapologetic, and altogether unmistakable platform of pure economic rage.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我读到詹姆斯·卡维尔的话时，我在想，在我看来，过去十年里，民主党全国委员会就像陷入了一段糟糕的感情关系里无法自拔。
When I read what James Carville said, I was thinking about how you know, my view of it is that the for the last ten years, I think the Democratic Party, the National Democratic Party, has been kind of stuck in a it's like we're stuck in a bad relationship.
我们过于将自己定义为特朗普的反对者，以至于——确实如此——
We've so defined ourselves by being opposed to Trump that we have True.
仿佛已经忘记了工作的另一部分，即提出一个积极、有力、正面的愿景，阐明我们对国家发展方向的构想。
Not, it's like we've forgotten how to do the other part of our job, which is to put forward an aggressive, strong, positive vision of you know, that is about where we think the country ought to go.
我认为我们需要结束这段旧关系，在提案内容上要更加大胆。
And I think we need to break up with this old relationship that we have, and we need to be much more bold about what it is that we're proposing.
我想这就是卡维尔想要表达的。
And I think that's what Carville is getting at.
当我听到'经济愤怒'这个词时，这让我联想到这是一种非常左倾、极左的平台。
When I hear economic rage, I you know, that kinda suggests that that's this very leftist, far left platform, Mondami kind of thing.
这就是我的理解。
That's that's what it it speaks to me.
我希望民主党不要那样做，因为我们需要两个强大的政党。他们不应仅回应民主党初选中少数选民中的少数派诉求，就像太多共和党人迎合右翼极端分子那样——这对国家无益，只会让共和党走向更极端化。
And I hope the Democrats don't do that because we need two strong parties, and we don't and and they would be responding to that subset of a subset of a subset of voters that votes in Democratic primaries, just like too many Republicans respond to that subset on the right, but it doesn't, doesn't do much for the country, and it it it, it allows the Republicans to be more extreme than they could otherwise be.
我认为如果民主党能更中间派一些，也会迫使共和党回归到更中间派的模式。
I think if the Democrats would be more centrist, it would force the Republicans back into that more centrist mode as well.
我是说，这就是硬币的另一面。
I mean, that's the other side of this coin.
要知道，你肯定不能指责特朗普政府做事循序渐进。
You know, you certainly can't accuse the Trump administration of moving incrementally.
那么，民主党应该效仿特朗普政府的做法吗？
I mean, should the Democrats be emulating what the Trump administration's doing?
因为共和党确实在抓住机会大展拳脚。
Because Republicans are really taking the ball and running with it.
嗯，这是个非常有趣的问题。
Well, super interesting question.
对吧？
Right?
因为，特朗普正在做的其实是攫取大量权力——就拿他对境内无证/非法移民（甚至包括合法居留者）的政策为例。
Because, I mean, what Trump is doing is he is seizing, you know, massive amounts of power to do let's just take, for example, his policy around what to do about people who are, you know, inside the country, maybe without documents, maybe illegally, maybe they are here legally.
因此，他在移民政策上采取了非常激进的举措。
And so he's doing something very radical when it comes to his, immigration policy.
据我上次了解，这种做法极不受欢迎。
The last time I saw, that's dramatically unpopular.
民众对此并不买账。
People do not like it.
确实如此。
Yes.
当然，人们希望看到边境安全。
Of course, people wanna see secure borders.
他们不希望罪犯入境。
They do not want people who are criminals.
他们不希望危险产品流入。
They don't want dangerous products to come into.
他们不希望毒品进入我国，但这些政策确实非常不得人心。
They don't want drugs to come into our country, but it is highly unpopular.
所以我认为缺失的是——你问题的核心在于，我们本应能满足美国人民的需求和愿望，但这并未实现。
So I think that the thing that's missing is and your question, what I'm responding to is we ought to be able to meet the needs of Americans and what they want, and that's not been happening.
嗯，我并非不同意你关于移民政策越界的观点。
Well, I I don't disagree with your, you know, the immigration overreach.
我认为这种越界确实相当严重。
I think it is, significantly.
要知道，说到打击犯罪分子，
You know, talk about going after criminals.
这是所有人的共识，但他的做法已远远超出了这个范畴。
Everybody wants that, but he's gone, far beyond that.
每位新上任总统都会夸大其获得的授权，而中期选举时几乎总会遭遇惨败。
Every president coming in exaggerates the mandate that they've forgiven, and they're usually given a whooping in the midterm elections coming up almost always.
这次的情况将会尤为严重，我认为。
This time, it'll be significant, I think.
因此接下来我们将迎来一段政府分裂期，作为一个关注债务等问题的财政保守派，我对此充满期待。
And so you'll you'll have now a period of divided government, which I, as a fiscal conservative, concerned about debt and whatever else, am looking forward to.
分权政府通常更注重财政审慎，但它也
Divided government is generally more fiscally prudent government, but it also
或许能激发这种效果，确实如此
And maybe inspires that It it does.
这种合作与妥协
That collaboration and compromise is
正是因为没有任何总统认为他们能实现所有目标
Precisely because no president thinks that they can get it all.
他们可能在头几年得到自以为能获得的一切，但随后政治钟摆就会摆动
They may be able to get all what they think they're gonna get for a couple of years, but then the pendulum swings.
我们正目睹这一大幅摆动，为此我前几天写了篇文章题为《大迁徙已经开始——共和党的迁徙》
And and we're seeing that swing in a big way, and that's I wrote a piece the other day called the great migration has begun, GOP migration.
从玛乔丽·泰勒·格林等少数极端分子身上就能看出端倪
We're seeing it if you know, on a few things, Marjorie Taylor Greene, a few outliers.
已经出现裂痕
There's cracks
表象之下
in the facade.
对吧？
Right?
确实存在
There are.
但是，当人们意识到现在反对总统在某些议题上很受欢迎时，为了生存，一些即将上任的将领们将不得不这么做
But, but now when people realize that it's popular now to be against the president on a couple of issues, and they will need to in order to survive, some of these generals coming up.
你会看到态度开始转变
You'll you'll see a different attitude coming up.
民主党已经失去了注册党员
The Democrats have lost registered Democrats.
移民问题，他在移民政策上的强硬立场，是他所能获得的最佳掩护
And and what happened, immigration, this immigration push and how tough he got on immigration is the greatest cover he could ever ask for.
因为他问：你们喜欢之前的局面吗？
Because he says, did you like what you had?
这就是你们将要得到的。
That's what you'll get.
而民主党本可以说，听着，我们犯了个错误。
And where the Democrats could have said, listen, we made a mistake.
我们在边境问题上犯了错误。
We made a mistake on the border.
我们想与总统合作，但希望他在合法移民问题上与我们协作。
We wanna work with the president, but we want him to work with us on legal immigration.
我不想在移民问题上偏离太远，但你说得对，移民问题确实是国会的重大失败。
I don't wanna get too much on a tangent on immigration, but immigration, you're right, has been an enormous failure of congress.
我的意思是，移民改革已经很久没有进行了，这让两党实际上以不同方式将其变成了竞选议题，用来左右民意。
I mean, there has not been immigration reform for a very long time, and that has allowed both parties actually in different ways to make it into an issue that they campaign on, they use to sway people.
奥巴马就曾利用DACA问题做文章，
Obama used it with the DACA issue,
而且
and
我们也看到特朗普总统在利用这一点。
we're seeing president Trump use it as well.
但2013年，2013年发生了什么？
But 2013, what happened in 2013?
我要让约翰来说
I'm gonna let me John
博纳。
Boehner.
你需要和约翰·博纳谈谈。
You need to talk to John Boehner.
当然。
Sure.
为什么它没有进入表决阶段。
Why it didn't go on the floor.
这就是问题所在。
This is the issue.
总会有原因导致它无法进入议事日程，也总会有原因导致它无法得到解决。
There's always a reason why it doesn't go on the floor, and there's always a reason why it doesn't get resolved.
但这正是问题的关键所在。
But that is the actual question here.
再次回到这个观点：当参议院真正推动事务时，往往是因为某个政党表态说，我们将倾尽全力支持这个议题，无论是奥巴马医改还是其他事项，并要将其列为我们的优先事项。
Again, coming back to this idea of when things have really moved in the senate, it's because a party has said, we are gonna put all of our power behind this issue, whether it be Obamacare or or or something else, and we're gonna make this a priority for us.
嗯。
Mhmm.
或者我错了吗？
Or am I wrong about that?
你可能会提出相反论点——关于奥巴马医改，我就会这么认为。
You could make the alternate argument, which I would make with Obamacare.
那件事做得太过火了。
That swung too far.
如果看接下来的选举，民主党遭遇惨败，就像奥巴马总统那句名言说的'挨了顿狠揍'，我认为正是因为当时推进得太激进了。
And if you look at the next election, I mean, Democrats got clocked, took the shellacking that, you know, president Obama famously said, because I think that was moving too far.
他们本不该仅凭60票就强行推动法案通过。
They shouldn't have tried to just push it through even with 60.
他们本该争取到一些共和党的支持票。
They should have got a few Republican votes Yeah.
最终本可以拿出一个更完善的法案。
And had a better product in the end.
所以我...我不确定是否...
So I I don't know that Do
你认为
you view
这个评估如何？
that estimation?
有意思的是，如今《平价医疗法案》已成为非常受欢迎的法案。
Well, so it's interesting because now today, the Affordable Care Act is one of the like, I mean, it's very popular.
民众支持它，我也坚决拥护这项法案。
People like it, and it I I strongly support it.
但这里存在一个问责的问题。
But there's an element here of accountability.
民主党人以60票的优势强行通过了它。
The Democrats passed it with a bear you know, with 60.
然后你可以辩称，如果你不同意这项立法，我们受到了问责，因为人们看到了我们的所作所为，并表达了他们的看法。
And then you could argue, if you didn't agree with that legislation, we got held accountable because people saw what we did, and they told us what they thought.
很多时候，我认为参议院的阻挠议事规则在很大程度上掩盖了这种问责，因为你可以倡导某事，但从未真正实现它。
A lot of times, I think that the filibuster met the the and the rules of the senate broadly mask that accountability because you you can advocate for something, but you never actually get it done.
然后你永远不会真正为你所倡导的事情负责。
And then you're never really held accountable for what you're advocating for.
结果就是，事情从未真正改变。
And as a result, nothing ever really changes.
但现实情况是，福克斯新闻和MSNBC上会就‘如果对方允许你本可以做什么’展开激烈争论。
But what happens is you have these, like, passionate arguments on Fox News and MSNBC about what you really wanted to do if only the other side had let you.
我是说，这真的
It I mean, it really
令人惊讶的是我们至今仍在讨论这件事。
is sort of astonishing that we're still having this discussion.
法案通过这么多年后你们还在讨论。
You did so many years after it passed.
嗯，其实没人受影响。
Well, no one's affected.
他们只是想谈论并捍卫它。
They just wanna talk about and defend it.
我是说，《平价医疗法案》本质上是项相当重要的保险改革。
I mean, the Affordable Care Act was basically a piece of pretty important insurance reform.
它改变了保险公司提供保险的规则及其必须履行的义务。
It changed the rules around how insurance companies could provide insurance and what they had to do.
但它从未真正触及核心问题——美国医疗费用过高，而且...
And but it never really got at the core underlying problem, which is that health care costs too much in this country, and there's Do you
你认同弗里克参议员认为若当时多等些时日与共和党协商会出台更好法案的观点，还是认为根本不会有任何进展？
take those senator Flick's point that it would have been better legislation if they would have waited some more and talked to Republicans, or do you think nothing would have happened at all?
嗯，我的意思是，这对我来说很难判断，因为当时我并不在场。
Well, I mean, it's so hard for me to know because I wasn't there in the moment.
我一直认为应该尽力寻找最佳解决方案，并尝试以两党合作的方式来实现
And I always am of the mind you try to figure out what is the best possible thing that you can do, and if you can do and and trying to do that in a bipartisan way
杰夫。
Jeff.
对。
Right.
我认为，只要能达成一致，这永远是正确的做法。
Is always, I think, the right approach if you can put it together.
但问题是，你需要等待多久才能达成两党共识？
But, you know, how long do you have to wait before you can get to the bipartisan agreement?
如果你已经看到你认为真正有益的事情，我认为就必须去做。
If you've seen something that you think is really gonna be good, I think you have to do it.
我想以这个问题结束：参议院现在拥有多大的权力？
I wanna end with this question about how much power the senate has right now.
正如你所讨论的，他们已放弃了对关税和外交事务的控制权。
Because as you've discussed, they've ceded control over tariffs, but also over foreign affairs.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，针对一艘据称载有毒品的船只实施的双重打击引发了轩然大波，我们看到一群民主党立法者向军方发送视频信息，敦促他们拒绝执行非法命令。
I mean, there's uproar over the double tap strike on a boat allegedly carrying drugs, and we've seen a group of Democratic lawmakers send a video message to the military urging them to ignore illegal orders.
那里有海军陆战队。
There are marines.
现在加勒比海地区有海军舰艇。
There are navy ships in The Caribbean now.
我想问的是，你觉得参议院对我们正在委内瑞拉及其周边地区行动的这些非常现实的问题，其回应是否充分？
I mean, do you feel like the senate's response to the very real questions about what we're doing in and around Venezuela is sufficient?
为什么没有更多的监督？
And why isn't there more oversight?
为什么没有对原本属于参议院核心职权范围的事务提出更多质询？
Why isn't there more questioning of something again that was a core purview of the senate?
是的。
Yeah.
这这确实令人沮丧。
That's that's been the frustrating thing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对。
Yeah.
我确实认为这次双重打击行动，特别是第二次打击，如果那段视频被公开，我想大多数美国人会感到厌恶。
I I do think that this double tap strike, the second strike, particularly if that video is released, I mean, there will be revulsion, I think, on most Americans' part.
当然。
Sure.
他们希望对毒品采取强硬措施，但同样可以兼顾人道主义。
They want a strong response on drugs, but you can have that with some kind of humanity as well.
而这次行动显然没有做到。
And this wasn't it.
因此我确实认为这种情况即将到来，但令人沮丧的是，在外交政策的所有领域，无论是关税、战争权力还是对乌克兰的支持，参议院现在有一项法案拥有85位共同提案人，如果参议院愿意表明立场，本可以通过这项足以推翻总统否决的法案，而且众议院也有足够的票数支持。
And so I I do think that that's coming, but it has been frustrating because in all areas of foreign policy, whether it's tariffs, whether it's war powers, whether it's, support for Ukraine, there's a bill in the senate now with 85 cosponsors that the senate could, if it wanted to assert itself, pass that veto proof bill, and there are sufficient votes in the house too.
但他们就是没有这么做，因为他们害怕总统会对他们采取什么行动。
But they just haven't because they're afraid of what the president can do to them.
关键是皮特·赫克塞斯，我认为需要有人去问问他们。
Bottom line is is that Pete Heckeseth, I think someone need to ask them.
你们的最高指挥官——总统说过他希望人们看到第二段、也就是视频的剩余部分。
Your commander in chief, the president said he wanted to he'd he'd like people to see the second, the rest of the video.
你们难道不认真对待这一点吗？
Do you not take, that seriously?
你们难道不服从最高指挥官的命令吗？
Are you not obeying the commander in chiefs?
你希望看到两党参议员采取更多行动吗？
Would you like to see the senators do more from both parties?
当然。
Sure.
两党都必须采取更多行动。
They have to do more, both parties.
参议员们必须履行职责。
The senators have to do their job.
没有其他机构能解决这个问题。
There's not another body can fix this.
众议院不会解决这个问题。
The house is not gonna fix it.
好的。
Okay.
别提那个了。
Forget about that.
只有参议院能解决。
It's the senate can fix it.
参议院能拨乱反正，只要他们尽职尽责就能做到。
The senate can right the ship, and it can if it does its job.
他们必须认清现实，是在等待下一次选举看中期选举结果，还是现在情况已经非常严峻？
And they have to come to the grips that are they waiting for another election to see what's gonna happen in midterms, or is it so serious right now?
我们只需要采取行动。
We just need to do something.
我向上帝祈祷，希望我们能抛开政治分歧，为了国家利益跨越党派界限，做正确的事。
And I'm praying to God that we can put the politics aside and reach across for the sake of the country and do the right thing.
我们拭目以待。
We'll see if that happens.
你想念它吗？
You miss it?
一点也不。
Not at all.
我不想念它的原因是，从我的立场来看，我发现在外面比在里面能完成更多事情。
And the reason I don't miss it is from the standpoint I could tell that I could get more done on the outside than I can on the inside.
我在参议院工作了很长时间，差不多有十五年了。
I've been there for a long time in the Senate for almost fifteen years.
竭尽全力尝试推动那些变革。
Tried everything humanly possible to make those changes.
所以我觉得，比起在体制内，现在或许能更好地为这些议题发声。
So I think I can maybe give a little voice to that from this side better than I could from the inside.
不，我确实怀念某些方面。
No, I miss some things.
我怀念那里的人们。
I miss the people.
是啊，我们也怀念那些。
Oh yeah, we miss that.
确实如此。
Oh yeah.
就像我说的，我本不想离开。
And like I said, I didn't wanna leave.
我还想见证更多。
I wanted to see another.
我并没有被打败，但我知道为了赢得连任，我将不得不改变自己，说出一些我并不相信的话。
I didn't get defeated, but I knew that in order to win reelection, I would have to change who I was and say things that I didn't believe.
那么，有哪些你当时无法直言而现在可以说的赤裸真相？
So what's an unvarnished truth that you weren't able to say then that you could say now?
嗯，我可以直言不讳地说，我大多数前同事并不赞同他们在关税、外交政策以及委内瑞拉问题上的做法。
Well, I can say that most of my former colleagues don't agree with the policies they're pursuing on tariffs and foreign policy and this Venezuela stuff.
他们确实不赞同。
They they don't.
没错。
That's correct.
政治利益驱使他们无法在此直言不讳。
The political incentives are not aligned with them to speak truth to power here.
这就是根本原因。
That's the bottom line.
正如我所说，我认为这种状况正在改变。
Like I said, I think that's shifting.
但目前来看，你知道，连任的支持率很高。
But as of now, you know, reelection is a strong poll.
非常感谢你抽空接受采访。
I wanna thank you so much for your time.
这次谈话真的让我受益匪浅。
This has been really enlightening.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate it.
再次感谢大家。
Thank you all again.
谢谢你，莉拉。
Thank you, Lila.
这几位是参议员杰夫·弗莱克、乔·曼钦和蒂娜·史密斯。
That's senators Jeff Flake, Joe Manchin, and Tina Smith.
要观看本次采访及其他内容，您可以订阅我们的YouTube频道：youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast。
To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/ at Symbol the interview podcast.
本次对话由塞斯·凯利制作。
This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly.
由安娜贝尔·培根剪辑，索尼娅·埃雷罗混音。
It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Sonia Herrero.
原创音乐由丹·鲍威尔、艾丽西亚·贝图布和玛丽昂·洛萨诺创作。
Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baitub, and Marion Lozano.
摄影由菲利普·蒙哥马利负责。
Photography by Philip Montgomery.
团队其他成员包括普莉娅·马修、怀亚特·奥姆、保拉·纽多夫、安德鲁·卡平斯基、埃迪·科斯塔斯和布鲁克·明特斯。
The rest of the team is Priya Mathew, Wyatt Orm, Paula Neudorff, Andrew Karpinski, Eddie Costas, and Brooke Minters.
我们的执行制片人是艾莉森·本尼迪克特。
Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
下周，大卫将与巴勒斯坦律师兼作家拉贾·沙哈德对话。
Next week, David talks with Palestinian lawyer and writer Raja Shahadeh.
我曾经能够与西岸的定居者或军队交谈，与他们进行对话，询问他们为什么要这样做等等？
I used to be able to speak to the settlers or to the army in in the West Bank and have a conversation with them and ask them, why are they doing this and so on?
而现在这已经不可能了。
And now it's impossible.
我是露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗，这里是
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this
《纽约时报》的访谈节目。
is the interview from The New York Times.
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