《采访》：“婴儿驯鹿”引爆了理查德·加德的生活，也让他获得自由。

我正在开启跨平台对战。

I'm opening up cross play.

我一直在和丹对战，他是《纽约时报》的同事。

I've been playing against Dan, my colleague at The New York Times.

猫下了另一手。

Cat's played another move.

呃。

Ugh.

她用了‘stoop’得了36分。

She played stoop for 36 points.

我手里有个Z，值10分。

I've got a z, which is 10 points.

我猜‘tango’不是一个单词。

I'm guessing tango is not a word.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

Tango是一个单词。

Tango is a word.

哦。

Oh.

丹完成了他的最后一轮。

Dan played his last turn.

我们来看看谁赢了。

Let's see who won.

比分非常接近，但我赢了。

It's so close, but I did win.

Crossplay，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。

Crossplay, the first two player word game from New York Times games.

今天免费下载吧。

Download it for free today.

当你看到一场本可以赢的游戏时，真是令人沮丧。

It's devastating when you see a game that you could have won.

来自《纽约时报》，这里是《访谈》。

From The New York Times, this is The Interview.

我是大卫·马尔切塞。

I'm David Marchese.

2024年，相对默默无闻的作家兼演员理查德·加德经历了奇特的一刻——他人生中最低谷的时刻竟成了网络热议的娱乐内容。

In 2024, the relatively unknown writer and actor Richard Gadd had the strange experience of seeing the lowest moments of his life become viral entertainment.

他的Netflix剧集《婴儿雷纳》基于他作为性侵和跟踪受害者的真实经历，意外成为当年最受好评的剧集之一，也是流媒体平台历史上最受欢迎的剧集之一。

His unsettling Netflix show Baby Reindeer, which was based on his experiences as a victim of both sexual assault and stalking, unexpectedly became one of that year's biggest critical hits and one of the streamers' most popular shows ever.

这使年仅36岁的加德迅速陷入一种强烈而令人不适的个人与职业关注之中。

It catapulted Gadd, who's 36, into a heightened and uncomfortable level of personal and professional attention.

面对这种不适，他的回应是更深入地探索。

His response to that discomfort has been to go deeper.

他的新剧《半个人》即将在HBO播出，讲述两位苏格兰男子之间长达数十年的相互毁灭式友谊：瘦弱而内敛的尼尔由杰米·贝尔饰演，粗暴而暴力的鲁本由加德本人饰演。

His new show, Half Man, which will air on HBO, is about the decades long mutually destructive friendship between two Scottish men, the slight and thoughtful Nile, played by Jamie Bell, and the brutish and violent Reuben, played by Gadd.

与《婴儿雷纳》不同，这部剧实际上并非改编自真实经历。

Unlike Baby Reindeer, the show is not based, in fact.

但《半人》与前作共享的是对性困惑、扭曲的男性气质、情感虐待以及创伤影响的无情而坦率的探索，而这些正是加德本人至今仍在努力理解的，无论是在他的艺术中还是在生活中。

But what Half Man shares with its predecessor is a brutally unflinching exploration of sexual confusion, tortured masculinity, emotional abuse, and the impact of trauma, all of which Gadd himself is still trying to understand, both in his art and in his life.

以下是我和理查德·加德的对话。

Here's my conversation with Richard Gadd.

理查德，感谢你今天抽出时间与我交谈。

Richard, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

非常感谢你邀请我来。

Thanks very much for for having me.

我很高兴能来到这里。

I'm I'm excited to be here.

我想从一个问题开始，也许这个问题没有简单或直接的答案。

I wanna start with a question that maybe doesn't have any simple or straightforward answer.

你知道，多年来你一直从事表演工作。

You know, you were someone who, for years, were working as a as a performer.

你做过单口喜剧，但你的作品本身常常有意让人感到疏离。

You know, you did stand up comedy, but the work itself was often intentionally alienating.

你知道，你做了很多反喜剧的东西。

You know, you did a lot of anti comedy.

你并不是多年来一直试图打造一部主流作品，然后终于《婴儿鹿》就成功了。

It's not like you've been trying for years to make some mainstream thing, and then finally, Baby Reindeer was the thing.

你一直在做自己那些古怪的东西。

You you were kind of doing your your own weird thing.

因此，我想象着，巨大的主流成功可能性很可能根本不在你的职业规划视野之内。

And so as a result of that, I imagine that the possibility of enormous mainstream success was probably not even really on your radar as something that was gonna happen in your career.

但成功带给你的，是让你对成功在情感上能为你带来什么、或不能带来什么，有了怎样的认识？

But what did achieving success show you about the reality of what success can do for you or can't do for you emotionally?

成功的最好之处在于它为我带来了机会，因为我真正关心的只是写下下一个作品、投入下一项工作，或者尝试探索更多我想作为艺术家去实现的事情。

The best thing about success is that it leads to opportunity for me because all I really ever care about is writing the next thing or working on the next thing or trying to, you know, explore more things that I wanna do as an artist.

但名气则是一件有趣的事，我觉得我还在慢慢适应它。

Fame on the other hand is is an interesting thing that I think I still come to terms with.

你知道，我觉得在最好的时候，我也是一个容易自我意识过剩的人。

You know, I think at the best of times, I'm a self conscious person.

而且我觉得，这真的太搞笑了。

And and I think, like, it's so funny.

我总是回想起那些早期的喜剧时光，就像你说的，那时我在全国各地的喜剧俱乐部表演那种让人疏离的喜剧风格。

I always look back on those, as you say, those kinds of early comedy days where I was performing alienating sort of comedy style to to to comedy clubs up and down the country.

我曾经想，为什么没人能理解呢？

I I used to think, why is no one getting this?

这正是天才的临界点，就在这里。

This is this is this is at the this is the cusp of brilliance, this right here.

我觉得这太棒了，能够回望过去。

And it's so I find it so good that I can look back on

看到那时的自己，我都能笑出来，因为我觉得名气让我现在的生活方式产生了一定程度的不适。

that and kinda laugh at myself because I think fame has led to a certain degree of discomfort in in the way I go about my life now.

你总是得想着自己在做什么、要去哪里，而不是单纯地享受当下，比如希望这里别来太多人。

You always have to think about like what you're doing and where you're going and like, no, not so much about just enjoying, oh, I hope there's not too many people here.

我担心有人来找我，而且我知道，当有人来找我时，情况从来都不会好。

I I I worry about people coming up to me and and I know that it's ever bad when people come up to me.

它们几乎像是我自身恐惧的投射，但这也是成名的副产品，你知道的。

They're almost like projections of my own fear, but that is also a byproduct of fame, you know.

因为来找我的人，即使不是每次都这样，通常都非常非常友善。

Because people who come up to me, if not all the time, tend to be really really nice.

但我仍然，因为我天生就容易焦虑，总觉得有什么潜在的问题可能在社交场合中难以应对。

But I still, because I think I'm just wired to think in an anxious way, I always think that something something is lurking that might be hard to deal with in a in a social situation.

但事实上，在很多方面，我是个相当内向的人，这一点人们往往意识不到。

But but I I think in a lot of ways, like, I'm quite a reclusive guy in a lot of ways, which I don't then people kinda realize.

我其实并没有真正改变过我的生活方式。

And I I didn't really change, like, the way I lived my life.

我一直以来唯一感兴趣的就是继续发展《婴儿鹿》这部作品，并希望用其他不同的艺术作品延续这份成功。

All all I was ever interested in doing was was taking Baby Reindeer and building on the success with hopefully different pieces of of work and art.

新剧《半个人》引发了关于男性气质的诸多问题。

The new show, Half Man, raises so many questions about masculinity.

对吧？

Right?

这部剧的核心主题之一就是：做男人意味着什么？

It's one of the central themes of the show is what does it mean to be a man?

男子气概是什么样子的？

What does manhood look like?

是的。

Yeah.

在《婴儿鹿》中，这个问题也以各种方式被提了出来。

And that was also a question that comes up in Baby Reindeer in various ways.

你对自己‘做男人意味着什么’这个问题有答案吗？

Do you have an answer to the question, what does it mean to be a man for for yourself?

嗯，这个问题挺难的，

Well, that's a pretty that's,

这很难回答。

it's a tough one to answer.

我的意思是，这很复杂。

I mean, it's tricky.

这很难说。

It's tricky.

我 definitely

I definitely

我记得当时发布了一则新闻稿，说要彻底解答‘成为男人意味着什么’这个问题。

I I remember, like, a press release going out with half man saying it will get to the bottom of the question, what it means to be a man.

我记得，当时我正处于一个非常繁忙的写作阶段，然后一份新闻稿就送到了我桌上。

And I remember, you know, I was in a really busy writing process at that point of view, and then a press release comes to your desk.

你就会想，我没时间应付这个。

You're like, I don't have time for this.

是的。

Yeah.

没关系。

That's fine.

所以我认为，很多人带着一种期待来看《Half Man》，以为我会回答这个几乎不可能解答的、存在主义般的问题。

And so I think I worry that quite a lot of people are heading into Half Man with with me somehow answering an almost existentially impossible question.

但就我自己而言，

But I for myself,

不，

no.

因为我认为，这或许正是我写作这些主题和这些内容的原因，许多角色，尤其是关键角色，都会经历这种寻找灵魂、自我发现的旅程。

Because I think I suppose that's why I do write these themes and these things and and a lot of the characters, particularly essential characters, go on these kind of soul searching journeys of sort of self discovery.

因为我总觉得内心有一种空洞，说不清楚，或者是一种灵魂的压抑感，我觉得这或许源于某种东西。

Because I think I've always had a sort of, like, a void within me that that I can't quite explain or, like, a a certain sort of holding the soul or whatever that I that I think perhaps comes.

我不确定，但也许这种感觉来自于我作为男人在生活中所感受到的压力。

I'm not sure about this, but perhaps comes from pressures that I felt as a man in my life.

但就回答问题而言，我认为它提出的是问题。

But in terms of answering questions, I I think it offers questions.

我不认为它给出了答案。

I I don't think it answers them.

在男性身份方面，你曾面临过哪些挣扎或未解的问题，需要你去面对和接受？

What were some of the struggles or or open ended questions around manhood that you felt like you've had to come to terms with?

我确实认为，当今社会中某种破碎的男性气质的运作方式，可以追溯到多年前发生的某些社会压抑。

I certainly think, like, a lot of the way sort of a certain sense of broken masculinity operates in in in today's sort of society can be traced back to certain societal repressions which happened years ago.

你知道，在这个国家，八十年代对于那些与他人不同的成长经历的人来说，是非常严酷的。

You know, the eighties in this country was a very unforgiving time for for people who grew up different to everyone else.

我认为这会导致压抑，而压抑通常会在日后引发破碎且具有破坏性的行为。

And and I think that leads to repression, which can lead in general to to sort of broken and damaging behavior in in later life.

而这正是我想探索的。

And and that was what I wanted to explore.

我想展现那些深深植根于我们童年、并在成年后显现出来的种种影响。

I wanted to sort of show these sort of deeply entrenched sort of things that affect us in our childhood and how they manifest in their adulthood.

我知道这是一些相当沉重的话题，但我的人生中确实发生过一些我曾公开谈论过的事情，由于社会上那些极端错误的观念——比如‘男人不会遭遇这种事’、‘男人不该经历这种事’、‘男人不该如此脆弱’——让我很难接受它们。

I know it's this is kind of, like, quite heavy stuff to get into, but there's certainly things that happened in my life that I've spoken about publicly that I found very hard to come to terms with due to draconian false ideas that that that this doesn't happen to a man and this shouldn't happen to a man and and that men shouldn't be vulnerable in this way.

所有这些我早已摒弃，事实上，敢于脆弱、承认我最深的秘密，反而给我带来了人生最大的自由。

All stuff that I've I've rejected and in fact being, I guess, vulnerable or kind of admitting to to to my my my my biggest secrets of whatever has led to the biggest freedom in my life.

是的。

Yeah.

我猜你指的是发生在你身上的那起袭击事件

I I assume you're referring to the assault that happened to

你。

you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你提到过，或者说暗示过，探讨这些想法或谈论它们是一种解脱。

But the thing that you said was that ex or alluded to was that exploring the ideas or making them talking about them has been liberating.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这和我想问的一件事有关。

And that's related to something I wanted to ask about.

因为在《半男人》中，你确实谈到了这些关于男子气概的想法，以及人们陷入的、我不知道用‘破坏性’是否准确，但确实是彼此复杂的关系。

Because in half man, you do talk about these ideas, again, of of manhood of, you know, people caught in in mutually I don't if destructive is quite the right word, but sort of mutually complicated relationships.

嗯。

Mhmm.

《半人》中涉及了虐待的主题，这些主题也在《小驯鹿》中出现过。

There are themes of abuse in half man, and and these are themes that also came up in in baby reindeer.

我想知道的是，你是如何通过创作关于这些创伤性个人经历的艺术作品来获得这种解脱的呢？

And the thing that I wanna know about is how do you achieve that sort of liberation through making art about these traumatic personal ideas.

你觉得这有宣泄的作用吗？

Do you find it cathartic?

这有疗愈的效果吗？

Is it is it healing?

有没有某个时刻，你会觉得：我已经在某种程度上走出了对这段经历的处理？

Is there some moment at which you're able to go like, I've sort of moved forward in my processing of of this experience.

这挺有意思的。

It's kind of interesting.

我觉得，因为《小驯鹿》的关系，人们会主动来找我，跟我分享他们的故事，而我总是说，我从不提建议，但你可以试着写下来。

I I I I think I find I think you know, I I I think because of Baby Reindeer, people people come up and they tell me things, you know, and and and I say I can never give advice, but try writing it down.

我常常觉得，当我们把某些事憋在心里，它就会不断膨胀，变得难以承受，真的难以承受。

And I often feel like when we keep something in our head or keep it inside of us, it grows to it can grow to intolerable levels, like intolerable levels.

我认为，羞耻、恐惧、内疚，以及围绕共谋或复杂情况的所有情绪，甚至包括我感觉自己像个傻瓜，这些都是我在面对这一切时所经历的巨大斗争的一部分。

And I think the shame and fear and guilt and all the feelings around sort of complicity or complicated all the complicated stuff and and the fact that I even feeling like an idiot was a big part of of sort of like the battle that I faced with everything.

这些情绪不断累积，达到了无法忍受的程度，我感觉自己就像在脑子里不停地击打一个台球，一遍又一遍，每次反弹都越来越猛烈。

I I I I it built to intolerable levels where I felt like all I was doing was whipping like a billiard ball around my head over and over and over and over and over again to the point where it was just ricocheting harder and harder each time.

到了某个时候，这种感觉真的变得无法忍受了。

And and it got to the point where, like, it was intolerable.

我认为我当时真的别无选择，因为我实在再也无法把这些东西憋在心里了。

And I think I really had a choice because I couldn't keep it in any longer, really.

我认为艺术所做的，就是在我向任何人倾诉之前，我首先把它写了下来。

And I and I think what art did is the first thing I ever did before I spoke to anyone about it was I I sort of wrote it down.

我认为艺术一直以来为我提供的，都是一个可以探索那些我正挣扎着面对的事物的游乐场。

And I think what art has always done and what has always given to me is is is a playground to explore things that I'm sort of struggling with.

我认为，这其实正是我真正想做的全部。

And I think that's kind of all I really wanted to do.

我还想试着去理解，你知道，‘男性气质’这个词被谈论得太多了。

I I I also wanted to sort of understand, you know, masculinity is is such a talked about word.

而且它在某种程度上有着巨大的吸引力。

And And it has such a sort of gravitational pull in a way.

这是一个沉重而重要的词。

It's a big weighty sort of word.

我真的很想探索男性之间的友谊与联结，这种联系似乎在某种程度上是超然的，有时甚至难以解释。

And I I I really wanted to to sort of explore male camaraderie and the male connection, which seems to be almost transcendental in a way and and sometimes unexplained.

我真的很想深入挖掘这一点。

And and I really wanted to to dig deep into that.

我认为，像‘有毒的男性气质’这样的词，人们很可能会用它来概括这部剧的很多方面。

And I think, you know, toxic masculinity, which which I'm sure is a word that people are probably gonna be synonymized with the show in a lot of ways.

我认为，如果某样东西是有毒的，比如毒品，它们首先必须是令人上瘾的。

I think for something to be toxic, you know, like like drugs are toxic, but they have to be intoxicating as well, you know, to to begin with.

我认为，八十年代在电视和社交中被随意使用的那些话语、歧视性词汇等现象被正常化了，这导致了那些害怕承认某些事情的人产生压抑。

And I think that the normalization of these things that were so casually thrown around in the eighties on TV, in society, words, slurs, all these kinds of things, they they they lead to a repression in people who are scared to admit certain things.

但事实上，我只是想深入这个混乱而复杂的议题。

But really, I I I I just really wanted to to to kind of get into the whole messy, complicated subject.

你有没有关于自己的一些事情，仍然不敢承认？

Is there anything about yourself that you're still scared to admit?

大概是吧。

Probably.

大概是吧。

Probably.

你知道，我觉得人生的旅程几乎就是努力与自己和解的过程。

You know, I think almost like the journey of life is trying to come to terms with yourself.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且我觉得，你完全可以懵懵懂懂地走过一生。

And I I and I think almost like you can stumble through life not knowing.

我觉得我在性取向上一直挺困惑的，这一点我以前也经常提到。

I think I think I've always been quite confused sexually, which is something I've always kinda spoken about.

即使现在坐在这里，作为一个36岁的人，我仍然有时会感到困惑。

I even as I sit here, you know, 36 year old, I I still feel I still sometimes feel confused.

我仍然觉得，我这一生尝试过很多标签，但这些标签从未给我带来任何安慰。

I still sort of feel like and and and I've tried to take many labels in my life, you know, and and the labels never brought me any sort of comfort.

你知道，真正的安心来自于内心。

Like, you know, comfort comes from within.

它一直如此。

It always does.

在我看来，内在的冲突通常没有外在的答案。

No no external answer usually exists to an internal conflict in in in my opinion.

所以对我来说，那些不一致、生活的混乱，以及我从未真正归属于任何阵营的事实，都没关系。

And so I certainly think with me, the inconsistencies, the confusing nature of life, the fact that I've never really felt settled in any camp, that's okay.

接受我可能永远无法站在坚实的土地上，这种接纳是我从未意识到自己必须面对的。

And and accepting that I might never stand on solid ground is a form of acceptance that I didn't realize I might have to come to terms with.

事情就是这样。

And that's kind of the way it is.

我认为，有时接受这一点，就已经是成功了一半。

I think sometimes accepting that is is half the battle.

我认为很多男性在青春期都经历过这样的情况：要么和那些表现出我们所说的有毒男子气概或普遍反社会行为的男性做朋友，要么被他们吸引。

I think a lot of men have had the experience, particularly in adolescence, of being either friends with or drawn to other guys who exhibit what we would call toxic masculinity or just in general antisocial behavior.

比如，我知道我的人生中有一段时期，我经常和一些不太适应社会的家伙混在一起，他们做的一些事情也很不正常。

Like, I know I know that there were periods in my life where I was hanging around with guys who were kinda, like, not well adjusted dudes who did kinda not well adjusted things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但那种吸引力确实存在。

But there is an attraction to that.

是的。

Yeah.

但我只是想知道，当你创作《半人》中核心关系时——即由杰米·贝尔饰演的内尔，一个相对更敏感的年轻男子，和由你饰演的成年鲁本之间的关系——后者正如你所说，是反社会的，承受着更多的挣扎。你当时是否想到了某些具体的关系，或者从中汲取了灵感？

But I just wonder if you had any particular relationships that you were thinking of or drawing on when you were creating the central relationship of half man, which is between Niall, played by Jamie Bell, who's sort of a more, I guess, could say more sensitive younger man, and Ruben, played by you as an as an adult, who just is is you the know, word that comes to mind is antisocial, just struggling with so much more.

你当时是否在某种程度上想起了某些关系，或者从中获得了启发？

Were there relationships that you were thinking about or or, you know, drawing on in some way?

我想我一定是在潜意识层面这样做的。

I think I must have been on a sort of subconscious level.

你知道的。

You know?

我我觉得他们一定是被吸引的。

I I I sort of I I think they must have been drawn.

我的学校里确实有一些人很可怕，我住的社区里也确实有一些人很可怕。

I mean, there were certainly people in my school who were who were terrifying, and there were certainly people in my neighborhood that were terrifying.

确实有一些人，我上公交车时总祈祷他们别在车上，诸如此类的事情。

There were certainly people that I would pray weren't on a bus when I was getting on the bus and all these kinds of things.

我确实遇到过一些容易爆发极端暴力的人，几乎是一种条件反射，对任何事情都这样。

And I I certainly think I've encountered people in my life who are prone to phenomenal violence, for sure, and almost like as a knee jerk reaction to to to any anything almost.

而且，你知道，我不能说这是基于某个人的具体经历。

And I I, you know, I I can't say that it was drawn on anyone in particular at all.

事实上，绝对不是。

In fact, it definitely wasn't.

但我确实遇到过足够多令人畏惧的男性行为，足以让我从中汲取灵感，你知道的。

But I certainly think I've encountered enough intimidating male behavior to be able to draw on it, you know.

而且我觉得，说实话，鲁本这个角色很有趣，因为我在很多方面都很想看看人们怎么看待鲁本。

And I think really, you know, Ruben like it's an interesting one because I I'm keen to see what people think of Ruben in a lot of ways.

我有种感觉，甚至是一种希望，就是我有一种奇怪的感觉，人们可能会比你预期的更喜欢他，因为我觉得，他内心流淌着痛苦。

And I have a feeling or even a hope that I I have this weird feeling that people might like him more than you might expect because I think, like, he runs on a river of pain.

我认为有很多男性，而那些可能喜欢他的人，很可能就是那些行为像他一样的人，因为我觉得他们可能会这样。

And I think there are a lot of men, and I think the people who might like him are a lot of men who act like him because I think they might.

对。

Right.

极度好斗、大男子主义，是的。

Ultra aggressive, macho Yeah.

非常执着于男性力量。

Very fixated on male power.

是的。

Yeah.

他们可能会看到像鲁本这样的人，然后意识到自己一直以来逃避的是什么。

And they might see someone like Ruben and they might realize what they've been running from all this time.

但 somewhere 发生了某些事情，让他们变得如此防御性、如此不安全。

But something somewhere has happened that has made them be that defensive, that insecure in a way.

我觉得这一点值得深入探讨。

And I thought that that was worth exploring.

我真的这么觉得。

I I I really did.

我觉得，你知道，我不确定这是否太过共情，但我认为许多男性暴力源于他们之前所遭受的暴力。

I I I I feel, you know, I I don't know whether this is too empathetic, but but I I feel like a lot of male violence comes from a violence that they they have suffered before.

《半人》与《婴儿鹿》在很多方面都很不同，但正如我一开始所说，它们在主题上有很多共通之处。

The half man is very different from Baby Reindeer in many ways, but as I said at the outset, thematically, it shares a lot.

而且，《半人》中也有几次——这完全不是剧透。

But also, there there are a couple times in Half Man this is not a spoiler at all.

《半人》中有几次，鲁本这个角色嘲讽地称尼尔这个角色为斑比。

A couple times in Half Man where the character of Ruben mockingly refers to the character of Niall as Bambi.

我当时就想，你是不是在暗示什么，这是对《婴儿鹿》的一个致敬。

And I thought, are you making some sort of it's a nod to Baby Reindeer.

对吧？

Right?

实际上，不是。

Actually, no.

这很有趣。

And it's funny.

你知道，人们会这样理解的。

Well, you know people are gonna read it that way.

对吧？

Right?

我想是吧。

I guess so.

我的意思是，那有趣的地方在于，这个剧本，嗯，你其实可以

I mean I mean, that was the funny thing because the script I mean, kinda I I You could

你本可以选世界上任何一种动物，为什么偏偏选了驯鹿？

have called up any any animal in the world, and you picked a reindeer?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我觉得你就是喜欢驯鹿吧，我想。

Well well, I think You just like reindeers, I guess.

我想我可能对它们有一种潜意识的爱。

I guess maybe I have a sort of subconscious love for them.

我不确定，但我确实觉得，你知道，你这么说挺有意思，因为我确实想过，人们会不会这么想。

I'm I'm not sure, but but I I sort of I I think, like, I you know, it's funny you say that because I did I did wonder if people would think that.

但如果你看看我写的那个剧本，那是在《小驯鹿》之前写的。

But but if you look at the script that I wrote that that was written before Baby Reindeer

里面有个Bambi？

It had Bambi in there?

里面确实有Bambi。

It had Bambi in it.

而且这仅仅是一种方式，用一个本质上带有轻蔑意味的名字来嘲弄他，暗示他像一只在冰面上的鹿，就像他所看到的那样。

And and it was only a way to sort of mock him to use a name that innately sort of patronizes Nile and mock him and and show that he's like a deer on ice, like he sees.

这仅仅是鲁本用来，你知道的，像许多所谓的强势人物所做的那样的一种方式。

And it was only way for Ruben to sort of, you know, like a lot of, I guess, alpha presences do.

他们找到各种方法来削弱你，从而确立自己对你的主导地位。

They they find different ways to undermine you so they assert their dominance over you.

我觉得‘Bambi’这个名字非常巧妙，几乎就像那种你给别人的绰号，让人难以分辨你是在侮辱他还是在开玩笑。

And I thought Bambi was a very it's almost like one of those nicknames you can give someone that can't quite tell if you're insulting them or not.

鲁本这么做非常有效，虽然在很多方面确实带有贬低的意味，但很难明确指出这一点。

It's quite effective by Ruben, you know, and it's but it is like it is demeaning in a lot of ways, but it's hard to kind of pinpoint that.

因此，即使在剧集后期再次使用这个名字时，它也被用作一种挑衅。

And so even in later on in the series when it's used again, it is used provocatively.

我需要这样一个名字来推动情节，但我认为我永远无法让世人信服

And I I needed a name like to operate, but I don't think I'll ever be able to convince the world

对。

No.

甚至连你自己都不觉得这是在指一只小驯鹿。

Even yourself that it isn't some baby reindeer reference.

所以我想我会，我会

So I think I'm gonna I'm gonna

你脑子里似乎有什么想法在盘旋。

have There's something floating around in your mind.

但再跟我多讲讲你是如何扮演鲁本的。

But tell me about a little bit more about inhabiting Ruben.

因为就连你为这个角色所做的身体变化都相当惊人。

Because even just your physical transformation for him is quite striking.

我觉得你为了演他，增重了大约五十磅肌肉之类的。

I think you gained, I don't know, much, 50 pounds of muscle or something like that to play him.

但你是如何进入那个身体、进入那种心态的？

But how did you get into that body and into that mindset?

我知道这是一项巨大的工程，因为我想，为了探索人们所认为的‘男性主导型’角色，我必须像现在这样让自己变得强壮。

I knew it was like a huge undertaking because I think, like, in order to explore what what people consider a sort of alpha male character, I needed to be big in my body like I did.

我需要变得强壮。

I needed to be big.

你知道，我每周锻炼六天。

You know, I worked out six days a week.

我请了营养师。

I had nutritionists.

我的餐食都准备好了并寄给我，我还得在特定时间吃完。

I had the meals made for me and sent to me and I had to eat them at certain times.

我从未偏离过我的饮食计划，除了在拍摄无上身镜头的那天，你知道，你会经历一种类似脱水的过程。

And I didn't stray from my diet once apart from on on days where I do topless scenes where, you know, you would you would go through a process of sort of dehydration almost like a

为了让肌肉更清晰分明。

To make the muscles more defined.

对吧？

Right?

为了让肌肉更清晰分明。

To make the muscles more defined.

这效果真是不可思议，你知道的。

And it's a it it is incredible how it works, you know.

前一天我照镜子时，觉得自己还没达到状态。

I would be looking at myself in the mirror the day before thinking I'm just not there.

我真的还没达到状态。

I'm just not there.

然后你会经历一段极其剧烈的过程，我简直不敢相信有多剧烈——通过大量出汗把自己减到你所说的那种肌肉更分明的状态，这真的很神奇。

And then you go through a very intense, and I can't believe how intense it is, period of sweating your your yourself down to make the muscles more defined as you say, and it's kind of incredible.

做

Do

你觉得你是一个对自己身体关系非常自律或有意识的人吗？

you feel like you're someone who who has to be conscientious or intentional about his relationship with his own body?

是的。

Yeah.

我想，我想，我想我确实是。

I think I think I think I I think I do.

我觉得我总是对自己不满意。

I think I'm always down on it.

而且我觉得我有时甚至会看着鲁本，他有时候状态很好。

And I think I sometimes even look at so Ruben sometimes be up.

我希望我当时能再努力一点。

I wish I could have pushed a bit more.

我希望我可能能再壮一点。

I wish I could have maybe been a bit bigger.

我觉得很多去健身房的人，尤其是我认识的那些人，都有一种特定的感觉。

And and I think I think a lot of gym goers, certainly gym goers that I know speak to a certain sense.

我不太想用这个词，但确实有种身体上的不安全感，是的。

I I don't wanna use this word like, but sort of sense of body, like in insecurity and Yeah.

无法看清现实，我知道有个人

Not being able to kinda see the reality is I I know somebody

这几乎是一种躯体变形障碍。

It's almost a dysmorphia almost.

体象障碍，没错。

Dysmorphia, exactly.

那就是我想找的那个词。

That that was the the word I was reaching for.

我觉得我确实有这种问题，而且我跟我的私人教练在一起时也会有。

And I think I certainly have it and I certainly would have it with my my personal trainer.

他们会说，我需要再壮一点。

I'd be like, they say, need I to get bigger.

我们在做什么？

What we're do?

我们在做什么？

What we're do?

他会说，你已经很好了。

He'd like, you're fine.

你没问题。

You're good.

你很高大。

You're big.

你很高大。

You're big.

但你没注意到，因为变化是渐进的，你每天照镜子的时候都看不到。

But you don't notice because when you're like, I I didn't notice because it was incremental changes because you look at yourself in the mirror every day.

你察觉不到自己在变化。

You don't notice you're changing.

是别人注意到你在变化，我认为这确实是人类天生就有的身体焦虑或身体不安全感。

It's other people that notice you're changing and I think it's so innately human to have sort of body issues or body insecurities for sure.

现在我想问一下你之前提到过的一件事，那就是《婴儿雷纳》让你在很多方面都发生了巨大转变。

Now I wanna ask a little bit about something that you alluded to earlier, but there was obviously a huge shift for you in so many ways as a result of Baby Reindeer.

是的。

Mhmm.

因此，我认为对于许多艺术家，尤其是那些长期在边缘地带打拼的艺术家来说。

And so, you know, I think for many artists, particularly artists who have been working for a long time on the margins a little bit.

可能会有一种追求更大成功的冲动，而这种认可或验证或许能填补之前存在的某种空缺。

There might be a sense of shooting towards having a larger success, and then sort of that recognition or sort of validation might fill some sort of hole that was there before.

你知道，就像如果我成功了，我就会感觉不一样，之类的想法。

You know, it's like if, you know, if when when I get successful, I will feel different or that that kind of thing.

你有过类似的领悟或感受吗？

Did you have any of those sorts of realizations or feelings?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，这挺有趣的。

You know, it's funny.

我觉得《驯鹿宝宝》在很多方面都探讨了这一点。

Like, I I think baby reindeer explored this in a lot of ways.

我记得《驯鹿宝宝》结尾唐尼·邓恩的独白，那总是剧中最著名的片段之一，他说：名气，他们只把你当作名人。

You know, I remember Donnie Dunn's monologue at the end of the show, which is always, like, kind of the famous bit in baby reindeer where he kinda goes, fame, they they see you as famous.

他们不会想到其他那些我担心他们会在意的事，比如这个人怎么样，那个人怎么样。

They don't think of all these other things that I'm scared they're thinking like this guy's this and this guy's that.

现在经历了这些之后，我不确定那是否真的是现实。

Now having lived that out, know I'm not sure that's quite the reality.

我觉得在很多方面，我总是把坏事放大百万倍，因为现在有更多人在关注我。

I think in a lot of ways, I I always think the bad things times times a million now because there's more people looking at me.

所以这很有趣。

So it's funny.

我的意思是，我

I mean, I'm

我某种程度上是在开玩笑，但我认为确实存在这种想法，很多艺术家追求成功，是因为他们觉得成功能解决某种内在的问题。

be I'm jesting to a certain degree, but I I think there is that that idea that a lot of artists I think I think a lot of artists chase success because I think they think it answers a a sort of internal problem.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这正是我想表达的。

That's what I'm getting at.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且对我来说，成功并没有真正给我答案。

And I I I do think with me, it didn't provide me answers, really.

它给我带来了生活中我喜欢的事物，也带来了我所珍惜的东西，就像我之前说的，比如机会，而这始终是我真正想要的一切。

It led to kind of things in my life that I liked and it led to to things in my life that I appreciate, like I said before, like opportunities, which is always just all I really want anyway.

但在回答那些深层的、源于灵魂的问题方面，我认为成功在这方面丝毫没有起到作用。

But in terms of answering sort of deep soul driven questions, I don't think it did that in any way, shape, or form.

因此，我会劝诫任何人不要为了这个原因去追逐名望。

And I I would caution against anyone really chasing fame for that very reason.

我认为追求成功确实能很好地激励你，把你从深深的不安和各种困境中拉出来。

I think chasing success is can be great for motivating you and pulling you out of the trenches of of deep discomfort and all these kinds of things.

但追求名望——那种被崇拜、被爱的念头——永远无法回答你是否爱自己的问题。

But but I think chasing fame, the idea of idolatry and being loved will never answer the question of whether you love yourself.

这真的源自内心。

It really does come from within.

我不是说我现在就爱自己。

And I I'm not saying I do love myself.

我比十年前更爱自己了，但我仍然还有很长的路要走。

I love myself a lot more than I did ten years ago, but I still have a long way to go.

这挺有意思的。

And it's funny.

我一直觉得自己是个相当有文化素养的人，你知道的，但我总是记得《鲁保罗变装皇后秀》结尾时的情景

I I I always always thought of myself as a fairly sort of cultured person, you know, but but I always remember the ending of

鲁保罗说：‘如果你连自己都不爱，你怎么可能爱别人呢？’

RuPaul's Drag Race where he go, how the hell?

如果你连自己都不爱，你怎么可能爱别人呢？

Like, if you can't love yourself, how the hell you gotta love someone else.

谁能说一声阿门？

Can I get an amen?

我会说，没错。

I'll be like, true.

你快把我搞疯了。

You're killing me right now.

而且而且而且对于

And and and for

出于某种原因，我总是会看这个，而且总会舒服地坐在椅子上，因为太真实了。

a reason, I would always watch that, and I'd always, like, sit down comfortably in my chair because it's so true.

你知道吗？

You know?

真的太真实了。

It's just so true.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常有趣。

That's very interesting.

我在想，这是否与你之前提到的关于灵魂中总有一种空缺感有关。

I wonder if it connects to what you said earlier about always feeling sort of a hole in the soul.

这很有趣，因为我听了你和马克·马龙的访谈，是的。

And it it's interesting because I listened to the interview that you did with Mark Marron Yeah.

大概是两年前吧，他用了完全相同的表达——‘灵魂的空缺’，来形容你当时的感觉。

Probably two years ago, something like that, and he used that exact same phrase, hole in the soul, as something that you you felt.

我不禁想知道，你是否对这个空缺的来源有了更清晰的认识。

And I I wondered if you had any clarity about where that hole came from.

我想，我的人生重大转折点是遭受了性虐待和操控，诸如此类的事情。

I I think I think, I mean, the big turning point in my life was being sexually abused, groomed, all that kind of stuff.

毫无疑问，正是从那时起，我的生理、心理和自我认知都发生了剧变，我感到自己完全与世界脱节了，你知道的。

I mean, that that was no doubt where things started to you know, like, where where I felt like my whole physiology, psychology, sense of self changed dramatically overnight and I felt sort of completely disconnected to to to to to to the world, you know.

天啊，我记得当时我在伦敦，我在一家酒吧工作，穷得只能坐公交车，因为地铁太贵了。

You know, Jesus, I just remember like I remember I was just in London, you know, like I I I was working at a pub and I I sort of was so skinned that like I could only ever really afford the bus because the tube was too expensive.

所以我只能走路，到处走路，住的地方离酒吧所在的卡姆登非常远。

So I just walk everywhere and I just walk everywhere and I lived so far away from Camden where the pub was.

我只记得自己当时与生活如此脱节，独自在街上徘徊，连路人都根本不看你一眼。

And I I I sort of just I just remember just feeling so disconnected from life, just wandering around these streets where no one ever like even looks at you.

所以我认为，我的存在主义危机很大程度上就是在那时发生的。

And and so I think like a large part of my sort of existential crisis sort happened there.

但如果我回望我的人生，我确实觉得一直以来都有一种不安全感，一种麻木或某种迷茫感，你知道的。

But if I look back at my life, I I I do think that there was always an insecurity and a kinda listlessness or a sort of like a wondering of some kind, you know.

比如，我记得自己上大学的时候，离开家去格拉斯哥的时候。

Like, I even think of, like, the time when I went to university, you know, when I I left home to go to Glasgow.

我只记得一种自我意识的阴霾笼罩着我，我感到无比迷失和不安，根本不知道自己该成为什么样的人，该做些什么。

And I just remember this kind of cloak of self consciousness kinda coming over me, and I and I just felt so lost and insecure and, like, I didn't I didn't know who to be or what to do.

在尝试做真实的自己之前，我可能已经扮演过好几种不同的角色。

And I probably tried to be several different people before I tried to be myself.

我还记得，当我独自在外、必须自立时，我甚至不清楚自己是否真的拥有一个‘自我’去守护。

And I just remember that also being odd, like when I was out in the world and had to fend for myself, I I didn't really know that I even had a self to fend for.

那是一种非常奇怪的感觉。

It was it was a very strange feeling.

所以我认为，灵魂中的那个空洞一直都在。

So I think that hole in the soul has always been there.

我想，最终我总是会转向艺术。

And I I guess like in the end, I always turn to art.

我认为很多人创作艺术，是为了在生命中寻找某种意义，而他们在很多方面都曾感到毫无意义。

I think a lot of the reason people create art is to find some sort of meaning in life where where where they felt none in a lot of ways.

他们在很多方面都在寻找答案。

They they they they search for answers in a lot of ways.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，这也是我正在走的旅程。

And and I guess that's the journey I'm on as well.

不仅成为公众熟知的人物，而且成为一部深刻反映你所经历创伤的作品的代表，这种体验是怎样的？

What was the experience like of, you know, not only becoming a sort of a publicly recognizable figure, but becoming a recognizable figure for a piece of work that was so much about a trauma that you suffered.

你

You

你知道，对一个人来说可以一口气追完的剧，却是你人生中最糟糕的经历。

know, it's it's like one person's bingeable show was the worst event of your life.

你知道的吧？

You know?

这真是

That's that's

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，这似乎是一种奇怪的状态，或者说，以某种方式成为这两种截然不同经历之间的桥梁，也很奇怪。

Seems to me like a strange state to inhabit or, like, two strange experiences to be the bridge between in a way.

你有没有觉得这种经历很奇怪？

Did you feel any strangeness around that?

是的。

Yeah.

那感觉非常不稳定，但也很有意思。

It was very sort of it was very destabilizing and and very sort of interesting.

我从不希望让人觉得我没觉得《宝贝雷纳》会成功。

I I never wanna act like I didn't think Baby Reindeer was gonna be a success.

我真的觉得它会成功。

I I really did think it was gonna be a success.

我是真的这么认为的。

Like, I really did think that.

但我有没有想过它会成为一种主流热潮，一度跻身Netflix最受欢迎的英语剧集前十名？

But did I think it would be a sort of mainstream sensation at one point in the kind of top 10 Netflix sort of most watched English speaking shows of all time.

我压根没想过它会做到这一点。

I I didn't I didn't think for a second it was gonna do that.

而这一点自然带来了大量对你的Instagram页面的评论和观点，简直让人觉得，天啊，他们有太多话要说。

And that that, of course, brings with it a kind of multitude of opinions and comments on your Instagram page, which can be quite like, god, they have they have a lot to say.

其中一些观点可能相当尖锐，读起来很难受，诸如此类，但这也是你选择走这条路时就该预料到的。

And some of those opinions can be quite harsh and they can be quite hard to read and all these kinds of things, but it's kinda what you sign up for.

我是说，我几乎读过很多艰难的内容，但某种程度上，我已经慢慢习惯了。

Like, I I I I I sort of almost, like I've read a lot of, like, difficult things, but I've I kind of, like, kinda got used to it in a way.