《访谈》：民主党在移民辩论中失利。除非你问参议员亚历克斯·帕迪利亚。

亚马逊雨林中的科学家有哪些自我护理习惯？为什么人类对红色如此痴迷？大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·鲁索里尼。在欧莱雅集团最新一期《这不是美容播客》中，我们将聆听科学家和研究人员讲述美容如何激发创新与发现。

What are the self care rituals of a scientist in the Amazon Rainforest? And why are humans so obsessed with the color red? Hi there. I'm Isabella Russolini. And in the latest episode of this is not a beauty podcast from the L'Oreal Group, we hear from scientists and researchers about how beauty has spurred innovation and discovery.

立即在您喜爱的播客平台收听。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

嗨，我是露露。在进入今天的节目之前，我想告诉大家《纽约时报音频》推出的新内容——订阅用户专享集。我们精选了一些最受欢迎的节目（希望也是你们的最爱），现在正为订阅用户制作额外剧集。比如《每日播报》每月两期特别节目，或是埃兹拉·克莱因的订阅用户专属读书会。

Hi. It's Lulu. Before we get to today's show, I wanted to fill you in on something new and exciting from New York Times Audio, subscriber only episodes. Some of my favorite shows and hopefully yours are now creating extra episodes for subscribers only. I'm talking about two special episodes a month from The Daily or a subscriber only book club episode from Ezra Klein.

您还能抢先收听《连环案》下一季内容。这仅仅是个开始，未来几周数月请持续关注同事们带来的更多惊喜。这是我们向支持者的致谢，正是他们的支持让新闻事业得以延续。如何获取这些专属内容？

You'll even get early access to the next season of Serial. And really, this is just the start. Keep an eye and ear out for much more from our colleagues in the weeks and months ahead. It's our way of saying thank you to the people whose support makes our journalism possible. So how can you get all this extra stuff?

订阅《纽约时报音频》即可解锁所有新推出的订阅专享内容，以及我们制作的全部节目档案（包括本节目）。若您已是符合条件的《纽约时报》订阅用户，这些将自动包含在您的订阅权益中。无论您是长期订户还是即将加入的新用户，我们都衷心感谢。最重要的是，感谢您收听我们的节目。

You can subscribe to New York Times Audio. It will get you access to all of this new subscriber only content plus the full archives of every single show we make, including ours. And if you're already an eligible New York Times subscriber, you'll get this automatically as part of your subscription. So whether you're a longtime subscriber or just about to become one, thank you. And most of all, thank you for listening to our show.

如需了解更多，请访问nytimes.com/podcast，或直接在Apple Podcasts或Spotify订阅。现在进入本期节目。这里是《纽约时报》出品的《专访》栏目，我是主持人露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗。今年六月，加州参议员亚历克斯·帕迪利亚意外成为特朗普总统第二任期决定性时刻的核心人物——

If you wanna learn more, you can go to nytimes.com/podcast or subscribe directly on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Now on to our show. From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Back in June, senator Alex Padilla of California found himself at the center of a defining moment in president Trump's second term.

他在国土安全部长克里斯蒂·诺姆举行的记者会上试图提问时，遭人强行拖离会场，按倒在地并戴上手铐。

He tried to ask a question at a press conference given by secretary of homeland security, Kristi Noem, when he was grabbed, hustled out of the room, forced to the ground, and handcuffed.

举起手来。举起手来。另外，我想说我是参议员亚历克斯·帕迪利亚。我有问题要问部长。

Hands up. Hands up. Also, I want to I'm senator Alex Padilla. I have questions for the secretary.

那次暴力驱逐美国参议员的事件登上了全球各大媒体的头条。这也提升了帕迪利亚的知名度，当时他并非全国知名人物。帕迪利亚于2021年被州长加文·纽森任命接替卡玛拉·哈里斯的参议员职位，成为该州历史上首位拉丁裔参议员。作为墨西哥移民之子，父母从事低收入工作，帕迪利亚一步步攀升至加州政坛高层，如今已进入第二个任期。随着言论自由、移民、州权、选区重划等议题在美国引发激烈争论，加州已成为决定这个国家未来的主战场。

That violent removal of a United States senator made headlines all around the world. It also raised Padilla's profile, who at that point was not really a nationally known figure. Padilla became a senator in 2021 when he was appointed by governor Gavin Newsom to replace Kamala Harris, making him the first Latino to hold that office in the history of the state. The son of Mexican immigrants who worked low wage jobs, Padilla rose to the ranks of California politics and is now in a second term. As debates over free speech, immigration, states' rights, redistricting, just to name a few, are roiling America, California has become ground zero for the fight over the future of this country.

我在政府停摆前的周一于参议员办公室与帕迪利亚会面，讨论了所有这些问题。此外，我还询问他是否考虑明年竞选加州州长。以下是我与参议员亚历克斯·帕迪利亚的对话。帕迪利亚参议员，非常感谢您接受采访。今天能占用您的时间，我深感荣幸。

I sat down with Padilla in his senate office on Monday before the government shutdown to talk about all of it. And, also, I asked him if he's considering a run for California governor next year. Here's my conversation with senator Alex Padilla. Senator Padilla, thank you so much for joining the interview. I really appreciate your time today.

感谢邀请。很荣幸

Thank you for inviting me. Happy to

参与。我想与您交谈是因为加州显然处于当前诸多议题的核心——移民、州权、选区重划。我还要补充，这对全国民主党人来说都是非常紧张的时期。不过我想先从一个让许多熟悉您的人感到意外的时刻谈起，因为您素来不以煽动者形象著称。6月12日，您在洛杉矶试图向国土安全部长克里斯蒂·诺姆提问时，被短暂戴上手铐。

be here. I wanted to talk to you because California obviously is at the center of so much right now in our current conversation, immigration, state power, redistricting. I'll also add, you know, this is a very tense time I think for Democrats across the country. I'd like to start though with a moment that I think surprised a lot of people who know you very well, because you're not exactly known as a rabble rouser. On June 12, you were briefly handcuffed after trying to ask a question to secretary of homeland security, Kristi Noem, at a press conference she was giving in LA.

当时背景是洛杉矶正爆发大规模反对ICE的抗议活动。能否带我们回到那个时刻？您为何打断她的讲话？当时发生了什么？

The context was this was during significant protests against ICE in the city. Can you take me back to that moment? Why did you interrupt her remarks? What was going on?

是的。我从未想过会发生这种事——尤其当提问者是参议员时，竟会得到如此回应。当时洛杉矶出现军事化部署，却没有明确的使命、既定目标或正当理由向国会或公众说明。经过多次尝试通过国会听证会、正式质询获取信息未果后，我终于等到一场安排在联邦大楼的简报会——这正是我当时在场的原因。

Yeah. Well, there was never would I have imagined that that would have happened, that that would be a response to a question, especially to a senator trying to ask a question. The moment in Los Angeles was the militarization of the city of Los Angeles without a clear sort of mission, defined objective, etcetera, or justification that had been communicated to Congress, let alone the public. And so after numerous attempts to try to obtain that information here in Congress, in committee hearings, via formal inquiries with no response, I finally had a scheduled briefing, which took place in a federal building. That's why I was in the building to begin with.

因此我认为人们理解这一点很重要。当我在会议室等待即将向我做简报的人员时，我们得知诺姆部长即将在走廊另一端举行新闻发布会，而我的简报被推迟了。于是我询问是否可以在等待期间旁听，看看是否有任何新信息发布。当诺姆部长声称这次行动是为了解放洛杉矶人民，将加利福尼亚人民从他们合法选举产生的领导人手中解放出来时，我感到必须发声并提出一些具体问题。

So I think that's important for people to understand. And as I was waiting in the conference room for the folks who were going to brief me, we learned that secretary Noam was about to have a press conference down the hall and my briefing was now delayed. And so I asked if I could listen in while we were waiting to see if there was any new information that would be provided. When secretary Noam says that the mission was to liberate the people of Los Angeles, to liberate the people of California from their duly elected leaders. I felt compelled to speak up and to try to ask some specific questions.

但还没等我说完几个字——你们也看到了当时的反应。对我来说，这重要的原因有几个。不仅是因为那次发布会上发生或未发生的事（毫不意外，政府立即试图散布谎言和虚假信息，说我没有自我介绍或表明身份，说我强行闯入等等），这些都与事实相去甚远。但更根本的是，特朗普政府 militarize 洛杉矶市的做法，为在全国任何地方、针对任何议题采取同样手段奠定了基础。

But before I can get a few words out, I mean, you saw what the reaction was. And so for me, it was important for a couple of reasons. One was not just what didn't or didn't happen during that press conference, because surprise, surprise, the administration immediately tried to put out lies and disinformation that I had not introduced myself or identified myself, that I barged in, etcetera. Nothing could be further from the truth. But I think more fundamentally, the way the Trump administration had gone about militarizing the city of Los Angeles, laid the groundwork for being able to do that anywhere in the country on any issue.

对吧？如今几个月过去，我们看到他们无数次试图压制异议。他们不喜欢任何反对他们所作所为的人。但洛杉矶可以说是倒下的第一块多米诺骨牌。

Right? And now here we are months later looking back at their numerous, numerous efforts as trying to quench dissent. They don't like anybody who disagrees with what they're trying to do. But Los Angeles was sort of the first domino to fall, if you will.

事后你和部长有过交谈，那次对话是怎样的？她道歉了吗？

The secretary and you talked afterwards, what was that conversation like? I mean, did she apologize?

没有道歉，但说实话并不意外，考虑到这届政府一贯的行事作风。我希望能说那次谈话更有实质内容或建设性。她最后确实说了句'我理解你想获取更多信息，你的问题是什么？'。我们提出的问题之一就是：尽管他们一直谈论危险暴力罪犯，但如果这届政府真的只针对、逮捕甚至驱逐危险暴力罪犯，那就不会有争议了。

No apology, but honestly not surprised, just given how this administration tends to carry itself. I wish I could say it was more substantive or more constructive. She finally did say it was, I understand you're asking for more information. What's your question? And among the questions that we had is for all their talk about dangerous violent criminals, If all this administration was doing was targeting, arresting, and even deporting dangerous violent criminals, there would be no debate.

那时就不会有讨论，因为不会有分歧。但直到那时我们不断听到传闻，说实际情况与政府宣称的相去甚远——南加州街头正在发生的真实情况。因为我们不断听到一个又一个故事，说那些没有暴力犯罪史的人被围捕。所以我想要些统计数据。我想问部长：你在新闻发布会上用幻灯片展示三四个名字，但其他被拘留、被逮捕的几十号人是谁？后来我们了解到，绝大多数在这些 indiscriminate 突袭中被抓的人——这个我们待会儿应该详细谈谈。

There would be no discussion there because there would be no disagreement, but we had been hearing anecdotally up until that point that that was far from the case of what was happening on the ground, what was happening in the streets of Southern California, because we kept hearing story after story of people with no violent criminal history being rounded up. And so I wanted to get some statistics. I wanted to ask the secretary, you put three, four, five names up on a slideshow during a press conference, but who are the dozens and dozens of others that have been detained, have been arrested? We've come since to learn that the vast majority of people being caught up in these indiscriminate raids, and we should talk about that here for a minute.

我们稍后会讨论的。

We will in a minute.

没有暴力犯罪历史。那么他们是谁？他们可能因多种原因成为无证移民。许多无证人士最初是通过临时保护身份（TPS）来到这里的。

Don't have a violent criminal history. And so who are they? They may be undocumented for a number of reasons. A lot of people who are undocumented came with TPS, right? Temporary protective status.

而唐纳德·特朗普取消了这一政策。或许他们最初持工作签证入境，后逾期滞留。并非所有人都是非法入境，但经过数年甚至数十年的工作、纳税、在这里养育家庭后，他们却成为这些无差别政策的靶子。

And Donald Trump has taken that away. Or maybe they came initially on a work visa and over stayed that visa. It's not always people who came here unlawfully, but they find themselves after years, if not decades of working, paying taxes, raising families here, the target of these indiscriminate rates.

我想谈谈移民问题以及加州现状。不过请稍等——事后你情绪非常激动，言辞激烈地描述了事件经过。我们还看到副总统JD·万斯在提及你和该事件时叫错了名字。

I wanna talk about immigration certainly and what's happening in California. I wanna stick with you though for a moment. You were very emotional afterwards. You spoke very passionately about what had happened. We also saw vice president JD Vance when referring to you and that incident use the wrong name.

他称你为何塞·帕迪利亚。你如何看待这种错误称呼？

He called you Jose Padilla. How did you understand that misnaming of you?

是的。可悲的是并不意外，因为这届政府就是如此狭隘——不仅是特朗普和万斯，更是他们营造的这种文化。我清楚他的意图：轻率地称拉丁裔男性为何塞，是他们嘲弄我们的方式。特别是对于万斯这样的副总统来说。

Yeah. Sadly, not surprised because this is how petty this administration is, not just Trump, not just Vance, it's the culture that they have created for themselves. And I knew what he was trying to do, right? To call a Latino man, Jose flippantly, that's their way of trying to ridicule us. For a vice president of Vance in particular, right?

别忘了耶稣的父母是谁——何塞与玛利亚（约瑟与玛利亚）。但对拉丁裔而言，我将这种称呼转化为骄傲：我认识许多勤奋的何塞。若你想这样称呼我，我视之为荣誉勋章。回到新闻发布会事件，尽管遭遇令人震惊——那确实是特殊经历——

Let's remember who Jesus' parents were. They were Jose and Maria, Joseph and Mary. But for Latinos, look, take it as a point of, I turn it around because I know a lot of Jose's, a lot of Jose's are hard workers. So if that's what you're to call me, then I'm aware as a point of pride. But back to the press conference and what happened, as shaken up as that was, because that was quite the experience.

但很明显：如果这届政府如此对待提问的参议员，想象他们在镜头之外如何对待普通民众。这应敲响警钟。从洛杉矶开始，我们看到国民警卫队已在华盛顿街头巡逻，并威胁要进驻波特兰、孟菲斯、旧金山、纽约等地。这对我们国家是非常严峻的时刻。

It was clear to me that if that's how this administration would respond to a Senator with a question, imagine not just how they could treat so many other people, but how they are treating so many other people when the cameras are not on. This should be a wake up call. And it started in Los Angeles. We've seen national guard troops now roving the streets of Washington DC, the threats to now be sent into Portland or Memphis or San Francisco and New York and etcetera. This is a very, very heady time for our country.

我所理解的是，你认为发生在你身上的事就像是煤矿中的金丝雀，预示着洛杉矶发生的一切。他们对待一位拉丁裔美国参议员的方式，象征着更广泛的态度与目的。

What I'm hearing you say is that you felt that what happened to you is sort of the canary and to what happened in Los Angeles was the sort of canary in the coal mine, that the way that they were treating a US Senator who's Latino is emblematic of a wider attitude and objective.

毫无疑问，毫无疑问。再次回到记者会，如我所言，我们作为FBI办公室身处联邦大楼，他们清楚我的身份。从踏入前门那刻起就有专人陪同，他们知道我是谁。

Without a doubt, without a doubt. And again, going back to the press conference, as I mentioned, we were an FBI office in a federal building and they knew who I was. I had an escort from the moment I entered the front door. They knew who I was.

你认为这是蓄意为之还是无心之失？

And you think it was deliberate or do you think it was a mistake?

至少是极其过激的反应，但他们明知我的身份。就像副总统万斯知道我的名字，却故意叫我何塞。看在上帝份上，我们在参议院共事两年。他清楚我是谁，这就是他们行事的方式。

At a minimum, it was a hell of an overreaction, but they knew who I was. Just like Vice President Vance knows my name, but he chose to call me Jose. We served together for two years in the Senate for Christ's sake. He knows who I am, but it's the way they choose to go about things.

我联想到你的成长背景——如何步入政坛、是什么吸引你投身这份事业，因为其中存在某种关联。你在圣费尔南多谷长大，父母来自墨西哥。他们是工薪阶层，父亲是快餐厨师，母亲是家政工。他们为何来到美国？对你又有何期许？

I was thinking about this in the context of your own upbringing, how you got into politics and the things that drew you into this work, because I think there is a through line there. You grew up in the San Fernando Valley, your parents immigrated from Mexico. They were working class, your dad was a short order cook, your mom was a housekeeper. Why did they come to The US and what did they want for you?

没错。你提到了开端，很好。我父亲来自哈利斯科州，母亲来自奇瓦瓦州。他们分别来到洛杉矶后相遇相爱，决定结婚并按此顺序申请绿卡。我每天都感谢美国政府批准了那些申请，因为若遭拒绝，我的人生轨迹与机遇将截然不同。但他们最终成为合法居民。

Yeah. So you got the beginnings, perfect. My father's from the state of Jalisco, my mother was from the state of Chihuahua. They came separately to Los Angeles, they met, they fell in love, they decided to get married and they applied for green cards in that order. And I thank the United States government every day for saying yes to those applications, because you can imagine if they would have been denied my life journey, opportunities in life would be very different for me than what they have been, but they became legal residents.

你说得对，四十年来我父亲专职做快餐厨师。所以在大学和中学演讲时，我会提醒孩子们：当你们去小餐馆，想想是谁在炒鸡蛋、翻煎饼——那就是我父亲的工作。同样四十年间，我母亲负责打扫房屋。靠着微薄收入，他们抚养了我们兄妹三人。我清晰记得父亲会用西班牙语打断我做功课说：

And you're right, for forty years, my dad worked as a short order cook. So when I speak at colleges and high schools, I remind the kids like, when you go out to a diner and think of who's scrambling the eggs, who's flipping the pancakes, that's what my dad did. And for the same forty years, my mom used to clean houses. On their modest incomes, they raised three of us. And I have vivid memories of my dad interrupting me studying or doing my homework and telling me in Spanish,

他说，我希望你用头脑工作，而不是靠体力。

Saying, I want you to work with your mind and not with your back.

对，对。体力劳动固然光荣，但他那样说是想让我有更好的出路。于是我想，好吧，从学业角度我喜欢什么？我过去喜欢数学，科学也学得不错。所以老师和其他人给我的建议是——你应该成为工程师。

Right, right. And there's a lot of honor in manual labor, but that was his way of saying, I want better for you. And so I thought, okay, well, academically, what do I like? I used to like math somehow did well in science. So the advice and counsel you get from teachers and others is you ought to be an engineer.

后来你去了麻省理工学院，学习

And you ended up going to MIT and And you studied

尽管加州有许多优秀学校，我还是接触到了麻省理工学院。那时互联网还没普及，我寄信索要申请表，被列入邮寄名单。收到录取通知书时，我知道必须去有两个原因：第一，这确实是我一生的机遇；第二，这也是实现父母梦想的机会。于是我在马萨诸塞州度过了四个寒冬，带着机械工程学位归来，准备开始职业生涯。

despite some great schools in California, was introduced to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And so years before www.anything, you know, I sent off a letter requesting an application, got in the mailing list. And by the time the acceptance letter came, I knew that I would have to go for two reasons. Number one, yes, it was a chance of a lifetime for me, but also talk about the fulfillment of my parents' dreams. So I went, spent four cold winters in Massachusetts, came back with a mechanical engineering degree, kind of ready to start my career.

但最终你被吸引进了政界，而非从事工程工作。

You got drawn though into politics instead of actually going into engineering.

这就是背景——想想当时的兴奋、热情与激动。从MIT毕业荣归故里，父母倍感骄傲。但我在电视上看到了什么？那是1994年，加州共和党州长皮特·威尔逊正在竞选连任，他力推187号提案，试图剥夺移民家庭享受公共服务的权利。

And so that was the setup, because think of the excitement, the enthusiasm and the emotion. Graduating from MIT, returning home, parents are proud. And what do I see on television? The year was 1994. Republican governor of California at the time, Pete Wilson, was up for reelection down to the polls, championing this Proposition 187, which sought to make immigrant families no longer eligible for public services.

是什么促使你因此投身政治？因为

And what was it about that that drew you into politics? And because

那份提案的残酷性，其言辞之残忍，描绘大批人群越境的画面，所用的语言，将移民当作替罪羊并妖魔化——他谈论的是我的家人，我的社区，这令人愤怒且极具冒犯性。我意识到工程学位挂在墙上固然好看，终有一天我会重拾专业，但此刻我必须挺身而出。这里是我的家园。若想让加州在道德层面走向更好的方向，我不能袖手旁观等待他人行动。此前我从未真正参与选举政治，但我知道要么选择投身其中，要么置身事外。

the cruelty of the message, the cruelty of the message, the imagery of kind of people crossing the border in big numbers, the language, the scapegoating, the demonizing of immigrants, he was talking about my family, he was talking about my community and it was offensive and it was enraging. And I realized that that engineering degree looks nice on the wall and I'll at some point come back to that, but right now I have to get involved. This is my home. And if I want California to move in a better direction, morally, I can't just sit back and wait for others to do it. I hadn't really been involved in electoral politics up until that point, but I knew that I could either try to be a part of it or not.

而我选择了参与其中。

And I chose to be a part of it.

事实上，你在1999年以仅26岁的年龄当选为洛杉矶市议员。

And in fact, you were elected to LA City Council in 1999 at the age of only 26.

是的，经过五年组织工作，开展选民登记活动，管理几场政治竞选后，我最终决定亲自参选。

Yeah, than five years later, after a little bit of organizing, some voter registration drives, managing some political campaigns, I finally chose to run for office myself.

让我们回到187号提案，它虽获通过却因法律诉讼未能生效。但这场斗争被认为促使民主党在加州获得绝对多数席位，因为拉丁裔群体被大规模动员持续多年。你就是最佳例证。在此背景下，我想知道你如何看待187号提案的遗产及其斗争。多年来民主党最终在移民问题上采取了更开放的立场。

Wanna stay with Prop 187 because it passed, but it never took effect because of legal challenges. However, that particular fight is really credited with giving Democrats their super majority in the state, because Latinos were activated in a huge way for many years. And you're the perfect example of that. In that context, I'm wondering how you look at the legacy of prop 187 now and that fight. Because over the years, the Democratic party ended up taking more liberal stances on immigration.

你认为民主党从那些辩论中吸取了错误的教训吗？

Do you think that Democrats took the wrong lessons from those debates?

我不这么认为。或许他们尚未读完整个教案。关于该提案最后要强调其残酷性：其中条款要求学校人员向当局举报任何疑似无证移民者，将教师、辅导员等教育工作者变成移民官员——其恶劣程度可见一斑。

I don't think so. Maybe they're not done reading the lesson plan. One final note on the proposition itself to underscore the cruelty of it. There was a clause that would have required school personnel to report to the authorities anybody they suspected of being undocumented, turning teachers and counselors and school personnel into immigration officers. That's how bad it was.

该法案未能生效的部分原因在于其被裁定违宪，但它确实是一记振聋发聩的警钟。不仅对我这一代当时正决定'嘿，我们得想办法参与其中'的年轻人如此——有人成为活动家，有人成为倡导者，有些人像我这样竞选公职——对我的父母这代人同样如此。要知道，当时无数像我父母这样的加州居民虽是合法居民，却对成为公民毫无紧迫感或意愿。而最终他们选择入籍，不仅是为了保护自己，更是为了能登记投票，能在民主制度中发声。大量像他们这样的人彻底改变了加州的选民结构。

Part of the reason why it never went into effect, it was deemed unconstitutional, but it was a heck of a wake up call. And not just for my generation of young people at the time deciding, Hey, we got to get involved somehow. Some people became activists, some advocates, some of us ran for office, but also for people like my parents, right? Countless numbers of Californians at the time, my parents, legal residents mind you, but with no sense of urgency or desire to become citizens. And finally they did so, and not just to sort of protect themselves, but so that they could register to vote and they could have a say in our democracy and huge numbers of people like them did that fundamentally changing the electorate in California.

其结果不仅体现在我们代表的构成上，更深刻影响了各级政治优先事项和议程——国会代表团、州议会领导层以及全州各县市的政策方向。

And as a result, not just who our representatives are, but the political priorities and the political agenda at all levels, congressional delegation, state house leadership, and counties and cities throughout the state.

我理解你的意思是，这对所有人都是警醒，促使他们必须参与围绕移民和加州的政治进程。但今天我们仍在进行这些辩论。有人可能会说187号提案的教训之一是它当时确实很受欢迎——它在加州获得通过，人们实际上希望实施该法律中的某些条款。

I hear you saying that it really was a wake up call for everyone that they needed to engage in the political project around immigration and California. But we're still having those debates today. And part of the lesson one could say a prop 187 now is that it was really popular. It passed in California. People actually wanted to implement some of the things that were in that law.

但请思考：它虽受民众支持，却被裁定违宪。而最终胜出的是什么？是宪法，对吧？

But think about that. It was popular. It was deemed unconstitutional. And what prevailed? The constitution, right?

这是个重要教训。

That's an important lesson.

但如你所知，在特朗普以明显反移民纲领当选后，我们国家正在更广泛地讨论该如何对待无证移民群体。国内很多人反对给予非法居留者与本国公民同等的权利和福利。你不担心民主党在这方面已经输掉了舆论战吗？

But as you know, we are having a wider conversation in this country after the election of Donald Trump on what was a very clearly anti immigrant platform about what we owe our undocumented community. There is a lot of opposition in this country to giving people who are here illegally access to the same rights and privileges that people who are citizens of this country have. Aren't you worried that Democrats have sort of lost the argument on this?

不，我认为问题可能过于狭隘了。真正的问题不仅是我们欠无证移民什么，或欠合法移民什么，而是——我们欠美国什么？我们欠美国一个比现在好得多的移民体系。现行制度已经过时，需要现代化。让我们理解其各个组成部分：民主党和共和党都同意我们需要一个安全、可靠、人道、有序的美国南部边境。

No, I think actually, I think the question may be too narrow, but I think the real question is not just what do we owe undocumented or what do we owe legal immigrants or, like, what do we owe America? We owe America a much better immigration system than we have today. Our immigration system is outdated. It needs to be modernized, and let's understand the various components of it. Democrats and Republicans agree we need a safe, secure, humane, orderly southern border of The United States.

这是其中一个方面。其次，我们要自问，是否每个想来美国的人都值得无条件入境？当然不是。但我们的工作签证、学生签证、寻求庇护等制度已经过时，亟需现代化改革。

That's one element of it. Second, let's ask ourselves, does everybody who wanna come to United States deserve to just be able to come, no matter what? Of course not. But our systems of being able to come on a work visa, on a student visa, to seek asylum, etcetera, those are outdated. They need to be modernized.

有时确实会就如何改革展开实质性谈判。但讨论中常被忽视的是——太多同僚似乎轻易忘记了——数百万不仅居住于此，更已在此生活多年甚至数十年的人。他们工作纳税、养育家庭、购置房产，是全美各地社区不可或缺的成员。只要遵纪守法——不是特朗普常挂在嘴边的暴力罪犯——我认为他们理应有机会走出阴影，迈向合法身份。这一主张得到民主党、共和党和无党派人士的广泛支持。

And at times there's actually substantive conversation negotiations around how to do that. But what gets lost in the conversation, what too many of my colleagues seem to quickly forget is the millions of people who not just are here, but have been here for years, in some cases, decades, working, paying taxes, raising families, purchasing homes, and are an integral part of communities across the country. If you're otherwise law abiding, right? Not the dangerous violent criminals that Trump likes to talk about, but if you're otherwise law abiding, I believe they deserve an opportunity to come out of the shadows and take a step towards legal status. That notion is widely supported by Democrats and Republicans and independents across the board.

遗憾的是，当前国会大厦内尚未形成这种共识。

Unfortunately, just not at this moment in the halls of Congress.

我想请教您如何看待上次选举中，副总统万斯在接受我采访时与总统明确提出的观点：非法移民正在消耗国家资源，夺走美国人的就业机会。这种论调不仅在部分群体中引起共鸣，甚至在拉丁裔选民中也获得响应。我们看到拉丁裔明显右倾，而您和其他人的主张似乎未能奏效。您认为原因何在？

And I wonder what you make of, in the last election, a very clear discussion by vice president Vance articulated to me when I interviewed him and the president that illegal immigration is a drain on this country, that it is taking away jobs from Americans. And that message not only resonated among swaths of the population, but it also resonated among Latinos. I mean, we saw Latinos take a big swing to the right, and it doesn't seem like that message from you, from others resonated. Why do you think that is?

有几个要点。首先，我不认同'明显右倾'的说法。确实有部分拉丁裔选民——男性多于女性——倾向右翼，但更大比例选择了弃权。从投票率数据可以看出，上届选举投票率有所下降。

So a couple of things. I mean, I think, number one, I disagree with the big swing to the right. I think there was some element of the Latino vote that swaying to the right, more men than women, but a bigger swing to sitting it out. And we can look at the numbers of turnout. Turnout was down this last election.

因此民主党确实面临双重任务：既要争取上次转投共和党的选民，更要重新激活大量弃权选民。其次，特朗普和万斯竞选时大肆渲染暴力罪犯的威胁。我在加州乃至全国无数次听到选民说：'这不是我投票支持的'。他们知道特朗普竞选期间常提移民问题，但无差别突袭的残酷性、最高法院支持的种族定性——天啊，仅凭外貌、口音或猜测的职业就能逮捕拘留人——

So, yes, Democrats have a lot of work to do, a, to win back some voters that maybe went Republican this last election, but also how to reengage a lot of voters that decided to sit it out. That's one. Number two, what Trump and Vance campaigned a lot on was this emphasis on the dangerous violent criminals. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, not just in California, especially in California, but from across the country, voters saying, this isn't what I signed up for. They knew Trump talked a lot about immigration during the course of the campaign, but the cruelty of these indiscriminate raids, the racial profiling supported by the supreme court, my god, saying, yes, somebody's appearance alone is enough to arrest or detain somebody, somebody's accent or their perceived occupation.

这是错误的。执法者不能通过违法手段来执行法律。

That's wrong. You cannot enforce the law by breaking the law.

我认为拉丁裔及其他群体整体右倾的部分原因，已相当明显地体现在拜登总统任内边境发生的事件上。高峰期每月逾25万次的越境记录。毫无疑问，特朗普总统采取的措施是有效的。你曾反对拜登总统时期的边境庇护限制。我在想，你现在回顾时是否认为在那场辩论中可能应该采取不同立场。

Part of the reason I think it's been pretty well shown that there was this move to the right by Latinos and others more broadly was because of what happened on the border under president Biden. Over 250,000 encounters a month at its height. I think there's no question that the measures that president Trump has taken have been effective. You opposed asylum restrictions at the border under president Biden. I'm just wondering if you look back now and you think perhaps you might've taken a different stand on that debate.

当时这些提案提交表决时，我所期待且至今仍缺失的是：接下来怎么办？因为我与两党同僚——不仅是民主党内部，也包括与共和党人——进行过多次对话。他们私下告诉我，亚历克斯，追梦者值得更好的待遇。我同意这点。但首先我们必须控制边境。

Well, what I was waiting for at the moment when those proposals came up for votes, what was missing then and what's missing now is, okay, now what? Because I've had so many conversations with my colleagues, both sides of the aisle, by the way, not just Democrats talking to Democrats, but me talking to Republicans. And they tell me in private, Alex, dreamers deserve better. I'm with you on that. But first we have to get the border under control.

农场工人也值得更好的待遇。我们依赖他们，他们帮助养活整个国家。但首先我们必须控制边境。既然你根据数据表示边境现已受控，那么接下来呢？

Farm workers, they deserve better. We rely on them. They help feed the nation, but first we have to get the border under control. Okay, so you're telling me that based on the numbers, the border is now under control. Now what?

现在对追梦者、农场工人等群体的援助在哪里？

Now where's the assistance for the dreamers and the farm workers and so many others?

我想提到2024年，因为你曾与共和党同僚联手否决了拜登总统力推、民主党与参议员兰格福德共同制定的两党边境安全法案。你不仅加入共和党阵营，还以‘该法案未为追梦者提供合法化途径，也未全面改革移民体系’为由，说服其他民主党参议员改变立场。现在我想知道，在知晓选举结果后，你是否会做出相同的反对决定？因为若该法案通过并加强边境安全，民主党或许不会惨败，也不会给特朗普总统提供如此有利的政治议题。

I wanna say in 2024 because you voted alongside your Republican colleagues to kill the bipartisan border security bill that president Biden had championed and senator Langford, whom I also interviewed, had helped craft along with Democrats. And you not only joined Republicans, but you also helped change the minds of some of your fellow Democratic senators for the reasons that you say that this bill did not allow any sort of path to legalization for dreamers or do anything, you know, more broadly for our immigration system. I'm wondering now, would you make the same decision to vote against the bill knowing the result? Because perhaps if that bill had passed and given more security at the border, Democrats might've not lost so badly. It might've not given president Trump, you know, what was a very, very useful issue for him.

政策层面，我仍坚持当时的投票。因为第一，法案既未承认也未承诺为追梦者、基础工作者等群体提供救济；第二，就选举教训而言，我不会将移民问题简单归因...

On policy, I still stand by my vote because there was no recognition and no willingness to commit to some relief or assistance for dreamers, essential workers more broadly, etcetera, number one. Number two, when it comes to the takeaways from the election, I'm not going to say immigration as an issue. So policy,

那么作为政治策略，你是否认为

politics, as a political matter, do you think

我认为可以合理主张，在这次选举中，经济焦虑所起的作用比单纯的南部边境局势更为重要。

I it would would be right argue that in the election, economic anxiety played a larger role than just the situation at the Southern border.

作为政策问题我能理解，但作为政治问题，你认为协助否决那份两党法案是正确的选择吗？

I understand as a policy matter, but as a political matter, do you think you made the right choice in helping to kill that bipartisan bill?

是的，因为我要利用手中的政治筹码，继续推动改善'追梦者'、农场工人、更广泛的基础行业工作者以及众多应走出阴影群体的境遇。

Yeah, because the political leverage that I have, I am going to utilize to keep advancing the need to do better by dreamers, by farm workers, by essential workers more broadly, and so many others that deserve to come out of the shadows.

你认为当前边境限制措施应当维持现状吗？

Do you think the border as it is now, the restrictions that are there should remain there?

我认为存在更明智的方式来维持南部边境的安全、人道与秩序。虽然需要大量投入，但经验表明不能仅靠增聘边境巡逻队和ICE探员，我们应投资入境口岸的监控筛查技术——如果他们描绘的担忧属实（我部分认同），问题不仅在于移民，还涉及毒品等...

Think there's a, I know the numbers are the numbers, but there's a much smarter way to go about maintaining a secure, humane, orderly Southern border. It does need a lot of investment, but experience tells us that it's not just how many more border patrol officers and how many more ICE agents we need to hire, let's invest in technology, surveillance technology, screening technology at ports of entry. If the concern as they've painted it, and I partially agree, it's not just people who come, but if it's drugs or other But it's

庇护制度。我是说，关键是...

the asylum system. I mean, thing that's

这正是需要更新的部分。但庇护制度本身——人们为何来此寻求庇护？根源在于其母国现状。美国不仅有责任与墨西哥合作，更应联合半球各国共同应对移民潮。若非走投无路，没人会背井离乡。若有更多机会与希望，他们根本不会选择来此。

And really that's part of what needs to be updated is what I'm saying. But the silence system itself, why are people coming here to seek asylum? It's what's happening in their home countries and what's the role or opportunity, if not responsibility for The United States to engage not just the country of Mexico, but other partner countries throughout the hemisphere to address the migration flow. People only come here if they're desperate and feel the need to leave their hometowns. If they had more opportunity, more hope, they wouldn't want to be coming here to begin with.

这符合我们的利益。

That's in our interest.

巴迪亚参议员，我曾与穿越墨西哥北上的移民同行。我见过那些因需要庇护而来的人，因为他们遭遇了可怕的事情。我也见过那些为了更多经济机会而来的人。他们将美国视为一个可以工作并出人头地的地方，而非自己的祖国。现行庇护制度的运作方式，将这两类人混为一谈，让他们都能进入这个国家。

Senator Badia, I have walked with migrants coming up through Mexico. I have seen those who have come here because they need asylum because horrific things have happened to them. I've also walked with those who have come here because they want more economic opportunity. They see America as a place that you can work and get ahead as opposed to their own countries. The asylum system as it had operated, put those two people together and gave them access to this country regardless.

所以当我听到人们讨论这个问题时，他们对民主党感到沮丧，因为他们也明白其中的区别，对吧？他们知道庇护制度失效了，感觉局面已经失控。

And so I think when I hear people talk about this issue, they get frustrated with Democrats because they also know the distinction, right? They know that the asylum system didn't work and that it feels out of control.

那我们就来分别讨论。按你的分类，有寻求庇护者和寻求经济机会者两类。对于庇护类别，我们需要妥善处理，保持应有的审慎，只为真正符合条件的人提供庇护。我们需要更多移民法官、更多听证官员，需要增强该系统的处理能力以加快裁决速度。

So let's talk about both of them. As you label it, there's the asylum category and there's the people searching for economic opportunity category, the asylum category to deal with that properly, to maintain sort of due consideration, to be able to grant asylum for those who truly warrant it. We need more immigration judges. We need more hearing officers. We need more of the capacity in that system to make those determinations more quickly.

这样人们能在数日或数周内得到答复，而不是数月或数年。但本届政府却剥夺了这些部门执行工作所需的资源，导致积压案件日益严重。至于寻求经济机会的群体——并非每个想来美国的人都该自动获准，但我确实听到许多企业主在寻找更多劳动力。

So people get their answer, yes or no, in a matter of days or weeks, not months or years. But this administration has starved those departments and agencies of the resources necessary to do so. So the backlogs are only getting worse. Now to the category of people wanting to come for economic opportunity. Again, not everybody who just wants to come to The United States should be able to automatically, but I do hear from a lot of business leaders who are looking for more workers.

考虑到失业率持续处于历史低位（至少几个月前还是如此），或许可以建立某种机制，将愿意工作的人与需要工人的雇主匹配起来。

And I would imagine with record sustained low unemployment, at least that was the case up until a few months ago, that maybe there's a way to match people wanting to work with people looking for workers.

我们现在处于这样的局面，而你已经明确表示反对大规模驱逐行动及全国范围内出现的相关计划。鉴于你是在反对移民政策的抗议浪潮中开启政治生涯的，我想知道，你如何看待当前社区对此的反应？

So we're now in a situation and you've made it very clear that you oppose a lot of what is happening with mass deportations and the project that we're seeing across this country. I am wondering since you got your start in politics at a difficult moment of protest against immigration, what are you seeing in terms of how the community is responding to this moment?

是的。首先，我要承认许多社区中的恐惧是非常非常真实的。整个加州乃至更远地区的社区都弥漫着强烈的恐慌情绪。当我说恐惧真实存在时，你可以从经济影响中看到——那些曾经午餐时段人声鼎沸的餐厅，现在可能只有一半上座率，部分原因就是有些工人害怕去上班。

Yeah. Well, first of all, let me recognize that the fear in a lot of communities is very, very real. There's a lot of terror being felt in communities throughout California and far beyond. And when I say the fear is real, I mean, you can see it in the economic impact. When you go to restaurants that used to be bustling every day in the lunch hour, now half full maybe in part because of work, some workers are afraid to go to work.

很多人不敢出门，因为这些突袭可能发生在任何地方。它们不仅发生在家得宝和建筑工地，这届政府还刻意选择在医院、学校、教堂等礼拜场所实施突袭，因为这些地方往往是'最恶劣分子'的聚集地。这确实造成了现实影响。但我要说，人们站出来发声的勇气令人印象深刻。

A lot of people are afraid to go out because these rates can take place anywhere. They've taken place not just at Home Depots and construction sites. This administration has chosen to try to conduct these raids in hospitals, in schools, in churches, houses of worship, really, because that's where the worst of the worst tends to hang out. So it's having that real world impact. But I say the the courage to stand up and speak up is is impressive.

这种抗争必须持续下去，因为本届政府已经完全失控了。

That has to continue because this administration is out of control.

我还想请教您关于加州新颁布的《禁止秘密警察法案》，该法案禁止联邦执法人员在多数情况下佩戴口罩。这将使州法与联邦法律直接冲突，因为联邦立法者和政府声称他们有权佩戴口罩——这能保护其身份不被拍摄者曝光，避免被人肉搜索等，毕竟他们只是在执行公务。您认为联邦执法人员应该听从谁？如果他们不遵守州法会怎样？

I'd also like to ask you about California's new no secret police act, which bans some federal law enforcement from wearing masks in many situations. This is going to pit state law against federal law, because essentially federal lawmakers and the administration are saying, they have a right to mask. This protects their identity from people filming them, from those who might wanna dox them, etcetera, while they're just doing their job. Who do you think federal law enforcement is supposed to listen to? I mean, and what if they don't comply?

这件事很可能最终要诉诸法庭，可能需要些时间来解决。但在此期间，无论是城市还是州政府在其管辖范围内制定执法规则，我认为首先这是有效的。其次必须注意，这种要求表明身份、禁止蒙面的规定（必要的例外情况除外）并非新概念——其他联邦执法机构必须遵守，各州执法机构也必须遵守。

It may very well end up in the courts and maybe it'll take some time to hash out. But in the meantime, whether it's a city, whether it's a state dictating the rules of law enforcement in their particular jurisdiction, I believe that is valid, number one. Number two, it's important to remember, like this requirement of identifying yourself, of not being masked, you know, with certain necessary exemptions to it, it's not a new concept. Other federal law enforcement agencies are required to do so. State law enforcement agencies are required to do so.

全国各地的警察局和治安部门都有此要求。为什么这些机构能在不蒙面的情况下履行执法和公共安全职责，而移民海关执法局（ICE）就做不到呢？

Local police departments and sheriff departments around the country are required to do so. So how is it that they can go about their law enforcement public safety duties while identifying themselves, not having to mask up, etcetera. And ICE doesn't?

在结束移民话题前，我想回到'追梦人'议题，因为这曾是获得两党支持的议题。本届政府已明确表示希望这些'追梦人'按他们说法'自我驱逐'。我听到民主党人对此特别沮丧的是：当民主党领导层明明有机会在这个广受欢迎的问题上取得进展时，为什么始终未能真正帮助到这些追梦人？

Before we move on from immigration, I do wanna circle back to the DREAMers, because this is an issue that has had bipartisan support. This administration has made it pretty clear that they would like to see the dreamers self deport as they put it. One of the frustrations I've heard from Democrats in particular on this issue, is that why hasn't democratic leadership, when they have had the opportunity to actually make inroads on something that is popular broadly, why haven't they been able to actually help the dreamers?

听着，我同样感到沮丧。我无法评论参议院在我2021年1月加入之前做了什么或没做什么。可悲的是，根据我现在对参议院规则的了解，推动这项措施需要两党支持。令人鼓舞的是，'梦想生'确实得到了两党的支持。多个国会会期提出的《梦想法案》本身就有共和党人联署。

Look, I share the frustration. I can't speak to what the Senate did or didn't do prior to my joining the Senate in January 2021. And sadly, knowing the rules of the Senate now, you need bipartisan support to move that measure forward. The encouraging thing is Dreamers do enjoy bipartisan support. The Dream Act as introduced in a number of congresses have had Republican names on the bill itself.

但自从特朗普时代以来，太多共和党人甚至不敢公开支持'梦想生'，更不用说为他们应得的救济方案投票了。这绝对令人沮丧，但我们会继续施压，因为'梦想生'理应得到这些。要提醒他们是谁在阻挠——要么是那些因特朗普反对而不敢投票的人，要么是在法庭上提出质疑的人——都是共和党人。

But ever since, you know, Trump, you have too many Republicans afraid to even do that publicly, to support Dreamers publicly, let alone cast a vote to give relief to the people that they know deserve it. It is absolutely frustrating, but we're going to keep pressing because those Dreamers deserve nothing less. And to remind them who it is that's keeping them from having that certainty that they need, whether it's who's not willing to vote for it, because Donald Trump tells them no, or who it is that's challenging in a court, it's Republicans.

你认为民主党人现在因为政治气候而害怕谈论移民问题吗？我必须指出，甚至你的一些拉丁裔同僚参议员也没有站在这个问题的最前沿。

Do you think Democrats are afraid of talking about immigration now because of the climate? Because I mean, I have to say even some of your fellow senators who are Latino, this isn't an issue that they have been standing front and center on.

我实际感受到相反的趋势，由于本届政府的过度行为，全国多地移民活动激增。当他们听到具体故事时终于醒悟了——泛泛谈论移民或统计数字是一回事，但细想之下，大多数人隔着一两层关系就认识受影响的人，这种恐惧正在产生真实影响。

I'm actually sensing the opposite right now because of the overreach of this administration, because the activity is on the uptick in a lot of parts of the country. And they're now realizing, hearing the stories, right? It's one thing to talk about immigration broadly or talk about statistics generally, But most people, when you stop and think about it, you know somebody. You know somebody, you know, one, two degrees of separation maybe, and there's a real world impact for the fear that's out there.

广告回来后，我与帕迪利亚参议员讨论了他的政治抱负，以及他对可能成为加州下一任州长的传闻有何看法。

After the break, I talked to senator Padilla about his own political ambitions and what he makes of the rumors that he'd like to be California's next governor.

我只是在思考：在哪里能产生最大影响力？不仅是短期，还包括中期和长期。

I'm just trying to think to where can I be most impactful, not just short term, but midterm and long term?

我是AO·斯科特，《纽约时报》评论家。当今时代有太多电影、书籍、电视节目和歌曲，令人难以取舍。在《纽约时报》，我们评论家的工作就是尽可能筛选这些内容，提供建议和推荐，引导您关注值得花费时间的好作品——但我们不止提供指南。

This is AO Scott. I'm a critic at The New York Times. These days, there are so many movies and books and television shows and songs that it's hard to make sense of it all. At The New York Times, what the critics do is sort through as much of that as we can to come up with advice, with recommendations, to guide you toward the stuff that's worth your time and attention. But we don't only offer guidance.

评论家的职责是帮助你理解事物，让你思考一部电影如何与历史或政治产生联系，一首歌如何激发情感，一件艺术品如何以唯有艺术才能实现的奇妙方式照亮世界。实际上，我和其他评论家的工作与《纽约时报》所有记者每日的努力同属一个使命——为你提供清晰的视角，最重要的是，对世界更深层次的理解。订阅《纽约时报》，你获得的不仅是头条新闻，更是理解万物如何相互关联的途径。如需订阅，请访问nytimes.com/subscribe。

Critics are here to help you make sense of things, to get you thinking about the way a movie connects with history or politics, the way a song opens up emotion, how a piece of art illuminates the world in the magical way that only art can do. Really, what I do and what the other critics here do is part of the same project that all of the journalists at The New York Times work on every day to give you clarity and perspective and, above all, a deeper understanding of the world. When you subscribe to The New York Times, it's not just here are the headlines, but here's the way everything fits together. If you'd like to subscribe, please go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

我想谈谈另一个以加州为中心的全国性议题——选区重划。特朗普推动了共和党主导州的一波重划浪潮，这可能导致更多共和党国会席位从德州开始增加。事态已超出预期。作为回应，加州提出了一项名为50号提案的投票倡议，将于11月进行表决。该提案将暂时重划加州选区地图，并可能为民主党增加多达五个席位。

I wanna talk about another national debate that is California centric, which is redistricting. Trump has pushed a wave of redistricting in GOP led states that may mean more Republican congressional seats started in Texas. It's moved beyond. In response, California has put forth a ballot initiative known as prop 50, and that's gonna be voted on in November. And that would temporarily redraw California's map and possibly add up to five democratic seats.

许多民主党人乐见民主党采用这一策略。但众所周知，无休止的选区操纵对民主有害。它会导致国会更加极化，因为议员们身处安全席位，觉得无需跨党派合作来推进对方可能支持的立法。你过去曾反对选区操纵。

And a lot of Democrats are happy to see Democrats employ this strategy. But of course, as we know, endless gerrymandering is bad for democracy. It leads to a more polarized Congress because people are in safe seats. So they don't feel like they need to work across the aisle to advance legislation that perhaps the other side might wanna advance. You used to be against gerrymandering.

如今你却支持这项措施。能否解释一下你的想法转变？

You're in support of the measure now. So can you explain to me your thinking on this?

当然。首先必须明确两点：第一，若非特朗普致电德州州长阿博特要求'再给我五个共和党席位'——就像他在2020年败选后致电乔治亚州务卿要求'再给我11000张选票'那样——加州就不会采取当前行动。不仅是特朗普的指令，更是德州州长和立法领导层的服从态度导致了现状。

Sure. Well, let's make a couple of things very, very clear. Number one, we would not be here if it wasn't for the fact that Donald Trump called governor Abbott in Texas and said, find me five more Republican seats. In a very similar way that he called the secretary of state in Georgia after losing the twenty twenty election saying, find me 11,000 more votes. Not just Trump making the call, but the governor and the legislative leadership of Texas saying, yes, sir.

这正是加州采取对策的唯一原因。我认同选区重划应保持独立，且应在人口普查后每十年进行一次——这是理想方案，但现实并非如此。究其根源，我们需要纵观全局：

That's the only reason California is doing what it's doing. I agree. In redistricting should be independent, should happen only once every ten years after the census in all 50 states. That's the ideal scenario, but that's not what's happening here. And the reason they're doing that, I mean, let's look at a bigger picture.

正常情况下，执政党会乐于凭借政绩参加下届选举谋求连任。但共和党虽掌控众议院、参议院和白宫，其政策对美国家庭的损害如此严重，以至于他们正在逃避政绩问责。因此，他们维持权力的唯一机会就是在选举开始前操纵规则。由于众议院优势极其微弱，这种党派性重划就成了保住多数席位的唯一手段。

Under normal times, a political party in power would be more than happy to run on their record in the next election and seek to stay in power. Republicans have the majority of the house, the Senate, and they occupy the White House. Their record has been so bad for American families that they're running from it. So the only chance they have at holding onto power is to rig the election before it even starts. And because of the house majority so thin, so narrow, the only way to try to hold on to their majority is to do this partisan redistricting.

加州通常不会这么做，但由于本届政府造成的破坏性和毁灭性影响，风险实在太高，加州绝对会反击。因为你知道这一切始于德克萨斯州，但不会在那里结束。你在印第安纳州、密苏里州、佛罗里达州、俄亥俄州都能听到议论，共和党人正在采取强硬手段，民主党人也需要这样做。

California would not normally do this, but the stakes are so high because of the damage and destructiveness of this administration, California is fighting back, absolutely. Because you know that it started in Texas and it's not going to end there. You hear the chatter in Indiana, in Missouri, in Florida, Ohio, Republicans are playing hardball and Democrats need to do the same.

我想简短地谈谈国会，因为就在我们谈话的当下，今天是星期一，政府看起来可能会在明天关门，因为民主党人不会投票支持为政府提供资金，原因是涉及

I want to move to Congress briefly because as we're speaking, today is Monday, the government looks like it might shut down tomorrow because Democrats aren't going to vote to fund the government over issues to

做

do

医疗保健的问题。这在政治上是一个冒险的举动。鉴于以往政府关门的经验，公众会将责任归咎于哪一方真的很难说。一般来说，政府关门是不受欢迎的。在今年三月类似的情况下，我曾与查克·舒默交谈，他在最后一刻改变了主意，关于政府关门的问题，他与共和党人一起投票保持政府开放，理由是这会伤害美国人民，伤害联邦工作人员。你对这次情况有什么变化的理解？

with healthcare. It's a risky move politically, Having seen other shutdowns, it really can go either way as to who the population blames. They are generally speaking unpopular. In a similar moment in March, I spoke to Chuck Schumer and he changed his mind at the last minute on this issue about a shutdown and voted with Republicans to keep the government open with the rationale that it was gonna hurt the American people, that it would hurt the federal workforce. What is your understanding of what has changed this time around?

自三月以来，最显著的变化之一是，也许我的一些同事认为共和党人会继续以诚意谈判并解决这些问题。那个持续决议，对吧，保持政府资金和运作，在几个月内遇到了预算协调法案和预算撤销法案。单方面的党派预算削减。那么你如何在下一轮预算谈判中说，让我们以两党合作的方式来做这件事。

Here's one of the most significant things that has changed since March. Maybe some of my colleagues took Republicans that they were, that will continue to negotiate in good faith and work on these issues. That continuing resolution, right, keep the government funded and going was met in a matter of months with both a budget reconciliation bill and a budget rescissions bill. Unilateral partisan cuts to the budget. So how do you go back into the next round of budget negotiations and say, let's do this bipartisan.

让我们以诚意来做这件事，知道有100%的可能性共和党人会在几周或几个月后，当唐纳德·特朗普告诉他们时，单方面削减民主党的优先事项，只保留共和党的优先事项。也许有些人会保证他们将遵守任何达成的协议，首先是解决即将影响全国人民的医疗费用飙升问题。这里没有好的选择。一方面，我知道政府关门对谁伤害最大，是我们国家最脆弱的人群。没有人希望这样，但我也知道，自本届政府开始以来，谁一直在系统性地受到伤害，就是我们国家最脆弱的人群。

Let's do this in good faith knowing that there's a 100% chance that Republicans will come back in a matter of weeks or maybe a couple of months when Donald Trump tells them to and unilaterally cut Democratic priorities and only keep Republican priorities intact. Maybe some reassurances that they will honor whatever deal is made, starting with addressing this healthcare cost spike that's about to hit people across the country. There's no good option here. On the one hand, I know who shut downs hurt the most, it's the most vulnerable in our country. Nobody wishes that, but I also know that who's been hurt systematically since the beginning of this administration is the most vulnerable in our country.

所以必须有所改变。我们必须利用任何杠杆点来试图控制这届政府，保护我们现有的保障措施。这很简单。这很简单。共和党人占据了白宫。

So something's got to change. We have to exercise any leverage point to try to reel this administration in and protect what safeguards we have. It's real simple. It's real simple. Republicans occupy the White House.

他们在两院都占多数席位。这是他们的责任。如果他们想保持政府运转，他们知道该怎么做。但他们选择不这么做。他们宁愿让政府关门，也不愿与民主党合作解决日益上涨的医疗费用问题。

They have majorities in both houses. It's incumbent upon them. If they wanted to keep the government open, they know how to do that. They're choosing not to. They would rather shut down the government than work with Democrats to address rising healthcare costs.

但遗憾的是，这对我来说并不意外。

But that's not a shocker to me, unfortunately.

但另一方面，民主党及其领导层在民主党内部也非常不受欢迎。我的意思是，这是两党共同的问题，因为国会的领导层普遍缺乏信任。作为一个看到民调数字、听到人们说这是一个破碎的政党，查克·舒默和哈基姆·杰弗里斯领导层未能应对当前局势的民主党人，我想知道你会对他们说什么。

On the other side though, Democrats and democratic leadership is also incredibly unpopular among Democrats. I mean, this is a problem of both parties in that there is a real lack of faith in the leadership across the board in Congress. And I'm wondering as a Democrat who sees the poll numbers, sees what people are saying that this is a party that's broken, that the leadership of Chuck Schumer, Hakim Jeffries is not meeting the moment, what you would say to them.

是的。我认为当前就是关键时刻。让我们回顾过去几年发生的事情。因为基本上是由同样的民主党领导层通过了让我们摆脱COVID-19疫情的措施。基本上是由同样的民主党领导层帮助我们通过了《通胀削减法案》、《两党基础设施法》和《芯片与科学法案》。

Yeah. I think the moment is the moment. Let's just look back over the course of a couple of years and see what's happened. Because it's been by and large the same democratic leadership that passed the measures that got us out of the COVID-nineteen pandemic. It's by and large the same democratic leadership that helped us pass the Inflation Reduction Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the Chips and Science Act.

那是在民主党总统领导下。

That was under a democratic president.

我们只是在谈论不同的时代。国会中的领导人。所以我们现在面对的是不同的总统。为什么？因为，是的，去年我们经历了一个艰难的选举周期。

Was just just talk about the different different era. Leaders in Congress. So we're dealing with a different president right now. And why? Because, yeah, we had a tough election cycle last year.

我并不是说情况不是这样，但我认为价值观和原则仍然存在。只是作为少数派，推动这些价值观和原则要困难得多，但我们确实如此。人们需要看到这一点。想想今年早些时候，他们没有看到斗争，所以感到不满。

I'm not saying that's not the case, but I think the values and the principles are still there. And it's a lot harder to push for them from the position of being in the minority, but we are. And people need to see that. Think earlier in the year, they didn't see the fight are unhappy was

与查克·舒默一起。他们对哈基姆·杰弗里斯非常不满。他们对整个民主党领导层都非常不满。

with Chuck Schumer. They're very unhappy with Hakim Jeffries. They're very unhappy with the democratic leadership at large.

也许今年早些时候，他们没看到斗争的存在，但现在情况更明显了，他们也更清楚地看到了。这两者是相辅相成的。就像有人问我，民主党能做什么？民主党能做什么？

Maybe earlier in the year, they didn't see the fight as there as it was. It's more there now and they're seeing it more now. It's going hand in hand. Like when people ask me, what can Democrats do? What can Democrats do?

我们正在努力推动，试图在国会少数党地位中找到这些杠杆点。这很重要，但不是孤立的。看看全国各地的检察长和其他组织在诉讼方面所做的，因为这个政府的越权行为而在每个环节起诉他们。但作为民主党人，我们能做的最重要的事情是继续组织和动员，不仅仅是为了下一次中期选举做准备。在加利福尼亚，一切都与第50号提案有关。

We're we're we're pushing, trying to find these leverage points being in the minority in congress. That's important, but it's not in isolation. Look at what attorneys general and other organizations across the country are doing in terms of litigation, suing this administration at every turn because of their overreach. But the most important thing that we can do as Democrats is to continue to organize and mobilize not just in anticipation of the next midterm elections. In California, it's all about proposition 50.

风险很高，不仅对加利福尼亚人民，而且对整个国家都是如此。

The stakes are high, not just for the people of California, but for the country.

顺着这个思路，在很多方面，加利福尼亚已经成为了这种抵抗州，对吧？正如我们多次讨论的那样，它是反对特朗普总统的中心，无论是移民问题还是其他问题。

Staying in this vein, in many ways, California has sort of become this resistance state, right? It is the epicenter, as we've discussed too much of the opposition to president Trump, whether it be immigration or anything else.

或者医疗保健、环境保护，或者

Or healthcare environmental protection or

所有这些问题。我只是想知道，你认为加利福尼亚作为一个抵抗州的定位是否对该州最有利，因为，你知道，火灾季节，还有可能发生地震。下次你需要联邦政府时，他们会伸出援手吗？加利福尼亚作为一个如此明显地站在特朗普议程对立面的州，对加利福尼亚人民来说是正确的选择吗？

All the things. And I'm just wondering if you think that positioning of California as a sort of resistance state is the best thing for the state, because, you know, fire season, you also have the possibility of earthquakes. Will the federal government be there the next time you need them? Is California's position as a state that is really so visibly standing up in the face of Trump's agenda, the right thing for the people of California?

没错。首先，是的，我相信如此。但庆幸的是，我的共和党同僚们也站出来表达了相同观点，我们不应将灾难援助政治化，因为这对加利福尼亚不利，对佛罗里达不利，对卡罗来纳不利，对德克萨斯不利，对任何人都不利。因此我认为，由于这种两党共同的责任感，援助最终会到位。但我要明确一点，我们抵制并非为了抵制而抵制，而是因为我们深知本届政府所推行的糟糕政策及其危害，同时也清楚更好的前进方向。

Right. First of all, yes, I believe so. But thankfully I've had Republican colleagues stand up and say the same, we should not politicize disaster aid because that's not good for California, it's not good for Florida, it's not good for the Carolinas, it's not good for Texas, not good for anybody. So I think the aid will be there at the end of the day because of that bipartisan responsibility. But I want to make it clear, it's not resistance for the sake of just resistance, it's resistance because we know the bad policies, the harm that this administration is championing, but also the better path forward.

最后我想问问关于你个人的政治抱负，很多人都在谈论你的未来。我相信你也知道，纽瑟姆州长任期将满，明年接替他的竞选正在升温。你与州长关系密切。

I want to end by asking about your own political ambitions, which many people are talking about, your future. I'm sure you know. Governor Newsom is term limited. The race to replace him next year is heating up. You're close to the governor.

当初正是他任命你进入参议院。在与加州当地比我更了解情况的人交流时，他们认为如果你参选，确实有胜选可能。你尚未正式宣布，所以我想知道你是否愿意现在就此表态。

He appointed you to the senate in the first place. And in speaking to people in California who know a lot more than I do, they say that you have a real possibility of winning, should you put your hat into the ring. You haven't made an announcement yet, so I'm wondering if you'd like to make it now.

目前不会发表任何此类声明。但要知道，加州是我的家乡。我热爱加州，在华盛顿时总会想念它。那里还有许多重要工作要做。我们之前讨论过部分议题，无论是为加州人创造经济机会，还是医疗体系的未来、教育系统的未来等等。

There won't be any such announcements happening right now, but look, California is home. I love California. I miss California when I'm in Washington. And there's a lot of important work to do there. And we talked about some of the issues earlier, whether it's economic opportunity for Californians, the future of healthcare, future of education system, on and on and on.

同时加州在全国对话中扮演着重要角色。我很享受担任参议员，尽管当前时局艰难，但意义重大。我理解为何有人认为加州州长职位对推进这些议题更具吸引力。我正在思考在哪里能产生最大影响力——不仅是短期，还包括中期和长期。是在这里吗？

But also California plays an important role in the national dialogue. So I'm enjoying being a Senator, tough times right now, but important. I see how some people could find the position of governor of California is attractive in advancing a lot of those same issues. I'm just trying to think through where can I be most impactful, not just short term, but midterm and long term? Is it from here?

还是在那里？或者，我是否能在华盛顿发挥作用，改变民主党人对某些议题的看法，包括但不限于移民问题，或是关注包括但不限于拉丁裔社区在内的多样性群体，从而为国家的美好未来持续构建强大的政治动能。

Is it from there? And, or do I have a role to play here in shifting how Democrats look at some of the issues, including but not limited to immigration or look to some of the diversity that's out there, including but not limited to the Latino community as a way of continuing to build strong political momentum for a better future for our country.

所以你正在权衡？

So you're weighing it?

我正在权衡此事，但首要任务是鼓励人们为50号提案投票。另一项决定要等到明年才进行，所以那个决定届时再做。

I am weighing it, but focus first and foremost on encouraging people to vote for proposition 50. The other decision, that race is not until next year, so that decision will come.

帕迪利亚参议员，非常感谢您抽空接受采访。我十分感激。

Senator Padilla, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

谢谢。谢谢。

Thank you. Thank you.

这位是亚历克斯·帕迪利亚参议员。欲观看本次访谈及更多内容，可订阅我们的YouTube频道youtube.com/@TheInterviewPodcast。本次对话由怀亚特·奥姆制作，安娜贝尔·培根剪辑，索尼娅·埃雷罗混音，原创音乐来自丹·鲍威尔、帕特·麦库斯克和玛丽安·洛萨诺。

That's senator Alex Padilla. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/ at Symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marian Lozano.

摄影由德文·亚尔金负责。高级预约制作人是普里娅·马修，塞思·凯利担任高级制片人，执行制片人是艾莉森·本尼迪克特。访谈视频由保罗·努多夫制作，扎克·伍德担任摄影指导，亚历克斯·罗森和丹尼斯·克莱默协助拍摄。

Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Video of this interview was produced by Paolo Nudorf. Cinematography by Zach Wood with additional camerawork by Alex Rosen and Dennis Kramer.

音频由埃菲姆·夏皮罗负责，马克·泽梅尔剪辑。布鲁克·明特斯是播客视频的执行制片人。特别感谢曼尼·费尔南德斯、珍妮·梅迪纳、康纳·多尔蒂、罗里·沃尔什、罗南·巴雷利、杰弗里·米兰达、尼克·皮特曼、麦迪·马谢洛、杰克·西尔弗斯坦、保拉·舒曼和萨姆·多尔尼克。两周后我将与维基百科联合创始人吉米·威尔士对话，探讨近期来自右翼对该网站独立性的威胁。

Audio by Efem Shapiro. It was edited by Mark Zemel. Brooke Minters is the executive producer of podcast video. Special thanks to Manny Fernandez, Jenny Medina, Connor Doherty, Rory Walsh, Ronan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman, and Sam Dolnick. We'll be back in two weeks when I talk with Jimmy Wales, the cofounder of Wikipedia, about recent threats to the site's independence from the right.

事实具有威胁性。如果你的政策与事实相悖，那么你可能会发现人们仅仅陈述事实就让你非常不适。而且，你知道，他们将不得不...

Facts are threatening. And if you and your policies are at odds with the facts, then you may find it very uncomfortable for people to simply explain the facts. And, you know, they're gonna have

克服它。

to get over it.

我是露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗，这是来自《纽约时报》的采访。

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from The New York Times.