《访谈》：丽贝卡·索尔尼特称左翼的下一位英雄已然现身

我是韦斯利·莫里斯。

I'm Wesley Morris.

我是一名评论家

I'm a critic

为《纽约时报》工作，同时也是播客《Cannonball》的主持人。

for The New York Times, and I'm the host of a podcast called Cannonball.

我们将讨论那些让你挥之不去的歌曲、让你看了之后停不下来思考的电视剧，以及你小时候看过、无论你喜不喜欢都塑造了你的电影。

We're gonna talk about that song you can't get out of your head, that TV show you watched and can't stop thinking about, and the movie that you saw when you were a kid that made you who you are, whether you like it or not.

整个过程中我都特别尴尬，因为这是一部烂片。

I was so embarrassed the whole time because it's a bad film.

是的。

Yeah.

但我依然喜欢它。

And I still love it.

你可以在YouTube和你收听播客的任何平台找到《Cannonball》。

You can find Cannonball on YouTube and where ever you get your podcasts.

来自《纽约时报》，这里是《访谈》。

From The New York Times, this is The Interview.

我是大卫·马尔切塞。

I'm David Marchese.

俗话说，唯一不变的就是变化。

As the old saying goes, the only constant is change.

但最近，这种变化似乎令人不堪重负。

Lately though, the change can feel overwhelming.

毕竟，我们正经历着民主普遍倒退、技术剧烈颠覆，以及气候危机这种缓慢进行的灾难——仅举几例。

We are, after all, living through an era of widespread democratic backsliding, massive technological disruption, and the ongoing slow motion disaster of the climate crisis, to name just a few.

但如果我们能讲述一个关于这一切动荡的不同且更充满希望的故事呢？

But what if there was a different and more hopeful story to tell about all that upheaval?

这正是畅销且广受好评的作家丽贝卡·索尔尼特新书《开端始于终结》的核心问题。

That's the question at at the heart of The Beginning Comes After the End, the new book by the prolific and critically acclaimed writer Rebecca Solnit.

作为她早期经典著作《黑暗中的希望》的主题续作，这本书以更长远的视角看待进步，并基于互联性、女性主义、生态关怀和政治平等的理念，提出了一种更乐观的变革哲学。

A thematic sequel to her earlier classic, Hope in the Dark, the book takes a longer view on progress and offers a more optimistic philosophy of change based on ideas of interconnection, feminism, ecological care, and political equality.

这并不是一本天真的书。

It's not a naive book.

索尔尼特清楚地意识到我们所有人正面临的巨大挑战。

Solnit is keenly aware of the massive challenges we're all facing.

但它为一种世界已严重失衡的感觉提供了一种稳定的制衡。

But it provides a stabilizing counterweight to the feeling that the world has spun dangerously off kilter.

以下是我和丽贝卡·索尔尼特的对话。

Here's my conversation with Rebecca Solnit.

你知道吗，丽贝卡，能和你交谈真的让我很高兴，部分原因是《迷失的指南》这本书对我意义重大。

You know, Rebecca, it's a real pleasure for me to speak to you in part because a field guide to getting lost was a really big book for me.

我搬到多伦多的家、来到纽约市后不久就读了这本书，当时它真的像一位忠实的伴侣。

And I read it not long after I had moved from my home in Toronto to New York City, and it felt like a a real companion at the time.

它完美地捕捉到了一种观念，即流离失所和某种孤独感实际上可以是积极的。

And all just the way it captured the idea that, like, displacement or and a kind of solitude can actually be positive things.

谢谢你带来这些。

So thank you for that.

我很高兴你在对的时间找到了这本书。

I'm so glad you found it at the right time for you.

而且，是的，这本书我们刚刚推出了二十周年纪念版，我有机会重新翻阅并思考我在2000年代初写它时究竟在做什么。

And, yeah, that book, we just put out a twentieth anniversary edition, and I got to spend some time revisiting it and rethinking what the hell it was I was doing in the early two thousands with it.

这真的很有意思。

And it's been really interesting.

我写了这本书，然后又写了《黑暗中的希望》，当时我想：我是不是精神分裂了？

I wrote that book, and then I wrote Hope in the Dark, and I thought, like, am I schizophrenic?

这两本书太不一样了。

These books are so different.

后来我意识到，《黑暗中的希望》非常政治化且积极乐观，而《迷路指南》则内省而略带忧郁，但它们都是关于如何接纳不确定性。

And then I realized that Hope in the Dark, which is very political and very upbeat, and A Field Guide to Getting Lost, which is introspective and kind of melancholy, were both about coming to terms with uncertainty.

当然，和我写的很多书一样，我写《迷路指南》也是为了回应当时文化中的一些现象。

But of course, I also wrote A Field Guide to Getting Lost, as I do a lot of my books, to kind of react against something happening in the culture.

而当时已经出现的一种趋势是，我们渴望生活在一个安全、有限且可预知的世界里。

And something that was already happening with Tek was the idea that we wanna live in a safe, circumscribed, known world.

我们不想出门前不知道自己要去哪里，因为我们需要掌控一切，需要知道所有事情。

We don't wanna leave the house without knowing exactly where we're going, in a sense that we need to be in control, that we need to know everything.

当然，我们永远不可能完全掌控，也永远不可能完全了解一切。

And, of course, we're never completely in control, and we never completely know everything.

那么，我们该如何看待它，才能接受它，甚至与之共处，而不是否认或对抗它呢？

So how do we look at it in a way that lets us accept it and maybe work with it instead of deny it or work against it?

你觉得你的新书是在回应文化中的什么现象？

What in the culture would you say your new book is reacting against?

一种文化上的健忘症。

Really a kind of cultural amnesia.

我习惯以一年、五年、五十年、几个世纪为单位来思考时间。

I think of time in increments of a year, five years, fifty years, centuries.

在这样的时间跨度里，你能真正看到世界如何深刻地变化，以及正在如何变化。

And across that time span, you can really see how profoundly the world has changed and is changing.

你能看到这些美好的事物——比如女性主义、民权运动、环保意识、原住民的复兴——都产生了深远的影响。

You can see that these good things and, you know, feminism, civil rights movements, environmental awareness, indigenous resurgences have had a profound impact.

人们常常以非常短期的视角来看待问题，要么觉得什么都没变，要么只看到最近发生的坏事，就认为我们在倒退。

So often, people seem to think in these very short term intervals in which they either think nothing has changed, or they just see the last bad thing that happened and think we're losing.

所以，背景至关重要。

So context is everything.

我常常觉得，许多悲观、绝望和末日论并非源于对未来的了解——尽管他们以为自己在思考未来——而是源于对过去的无知。

And I often feel that a lot of pessimism, despair, doomerism comes from not knowledge about the future, even though they think they're thinking about the future, but from lack of knowledge about the past.

绝望与健忘总是相伴而行，而希望与记忆，在许多情况下也是如此。

Despair and amnesia go hand in hand, and so do hope and memory, I think, in many cases.

当人们阅读新闻，或从日到日、月到月、甚至年到年地思考变化时，如果他们感到自己正一头冲向黑暗的反乌托邦未来，他们还应该思考些什么？或者，他们需要哪些额外的背景信息，才能完整地看清局势，意识到这些积极变革的深层潮流？

So when people are reading the news or or thinking about changes from day to day or month to month or even year to year, and it's making them feel like they're just barreling into a grim dystopian future, what else should they be thinking about, or what additional context should they have that would help them complete the picture and and and show them that there are these deeper currents of positive change?

我认为，如果我们仔细倾听右翼人士所说的话，他们其实也传递了一些非常鼓舞人心的信息。

I think even the right tells us something if we listen very carefully to what they're saying, something very encouraging.

他们告诉我们：你们的力量非常强大。

They tell us, you all are very powerful.

你们已经深刻地改变了世界。

You've changed the world profoundly.

所有这些常被单独看待的事物——女权主义、酷儿权利、环保与气候行动、平等理念等等——实际上都是相互关联的。

All these things that are often treated separately, feminism, queer rights, environmental and climate action, ideas of equality, etcetera, are actually all connected.

所以他们基本上是在告诉我们，我们取得了巨大的成功，这是好消息。

So they're basically telling us we're incredibly successful, which is the good news.

坏消息是，他们憎恨这一切，想要把一切都倒退回原状。

The bad news is they hate it and they wanna change it all back.

我们如今看到的特朗普主义、极右翼的复兴或崛起，很大程度上源于对世界已发生改变的愤怒，以及想要逆转这些变化的欲望——让女性重新回到赤脚怀孕、待在厨房的状态，重建已被部分拆除的种族等级制度，强加强制性的基督教和异性恋，惩罚差异，放松环保监管，而为此你还得假装破坏气候、污染河流、摧毁自然世界没有任何后果，假装我们彼此并不相连，这是一种反联结的意识形态。

So much of what we're seeing with Trumpism, with the far right resurgence, or surge right now is a fury at how the world has been changed and a desire to change it back, to put women back, you know, kind of barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen, to recreate racial hierarchies that have been dismantled to some extent, to, you know, impose mandatory Christianity, mandatory heterosexuality to punish difference, and to deregulate protecting the environment for which you also have to pretend that there are no consequences to destroying the climate, polluting rivers, destroying the natural world, etcetera, and pretend that we're not connected, and it's an anti connection ideology.

因此，出现了一股反扑浪潮。

And so there's a backlash.

这股反扑力量不容小觑，但它并非全面或全球性的。

It is significant, but it is not comprehensive or global.

去年我到欧洲进行新书巡讲时，欧洲人对我的反应让我大吃一惊，他们说：‘罗伊诉韦德案被推翻了？’

I was on book tour last year in Europe, and the Europeans kind of astounded me by being like, oh, Roe versus Wade was overturned.

这不就意味着女权主义失败了吗？

Doesn't that mean feminism has failed?

我当时就说，美国只占全球人口的4%。

And I was like, The United States is 4% of the population.

与此同时，所有这些天主教国家，比如阿根廷、墨西哥、爱尔兰和西班牙，都大幅扩大了生殖权利和堕胎可及性。

Meanwhile, all these Catholic countries, Argentina, Mexico, Ireland, and Spain have greatly expanded reproductive rights and abortion access.

尽管推翻罗伊诉韦德案取消了全国性的保护，但许多蓝色州反而加强了相关保障，你知道的。

And even though overturning of Roe versus Wade just took away the national protection, a lot of blue states strengthened it, you know.

所以这实际上取决于你怎么讲述这个故事，而讲述的方式有很多。

So it's really how you tell the story, and there's a lot of different ways to tell it.

所以我总是想给人们提供更广阔的视角、更深层的洞察，以及理解变革的工具，让他们能够看见、理解并以一种短期视角无法做到的方式参与其中。

So I always want to give people these broader perspectives, these deeper perspectives, this equipment for understanding change in ways that empowers them to see it, to understand it, and to participate in it in ways I think you can't with the short term perspectives.

你认为进步性的变革是不可避免的吗？

Do you think progressive change is inevitable?

我认为没有什么是不可避免的，但如果我们非要用‘不可避免’这个词，那也得谨慎使用。

I think nothing is inevitable, but I do think the word inevitable should be used if we're gonna use inevitable.

从某种意义上说，一切皆是不可避免的。

In some ways, everything is inevitable.

我们正在当下决定未来会是什么样子，我认为这其中有很多优势和趋势。

We're deciding in the present what the future will be, and I think there's a lot of strengths and tendencies.

但认识到未来并不存在，实际上能打破许多失败主义、绝望、末日论和愤世嫉俗的心态——这些心态常常假装知道未来能或不能发生什么，以此伪装成一种他们并不真正拥有的力量，同时放弃了我们真正拥有的力量：在当下创造一个尚未存在的未来。

But recognizing that the future does not exist really dismantles a lot of defeatism, despair, doomerism, cynicism, which often pretend to know what the future can and can't be as a way of pretending to a power they don't really have while abandoning the power we really do have, which is to make a future that doesn't exist yet in the present.

我一生都在听人们谈论什么能发生、什么不能发生，但通常当事实证明唐纳德·特朗普真的能当选、同性婚姻真的会通过、我们真的能阻止基斯通管道时，他们却从不回来道歉。

And I've spent my life listening to people talk about what can and can't happen, and usually not coming back to apologize when it turns out that actually Donald Trump can be elected, same sex marriage is gonna pass, we are gonna stop the Keystone pipeline.

所以，这时候我就想做个讨厌鬼。

So that's when I wanna be kind of an asshole.

我会说：哇哦。

I'm like, wow.

你下注赛马吗？

Do you bet on the horses?

因为你觉得你特别擅长预知未来。

Because you seem to be really good at knowing the future.

你知道吗，我刚刚读了一篇名叫乔治·谢拉巴的作家写的散文。

You know, I was just reading, an essay by this writer named George Shielaba.

我认为他是美国最出色的政论作家之一，但他指出，某种形式的社会保守主义确实有其价值，比如通过维护某些文化或宗教传统，有助于促进社会稳定。

I think he's one of the best political writers in America, but he was pointing out that, you know, there can be a kind of value in certain forms of social conservatism that in sort of maintaining certain cultural or religious traditions, you know, it helps with social stability.

它有助于在人群之间培养大规模的信任。

It helps with inculcating large scale trust among groups of people.

但这篇论文指出的问题在于，当这些传统建立在幻觉之上时，就会出问题。

But the problem in this essay was pointing out is when those traditions are based in illusions.

这种幻觉可能表现为白人男性的权威，或认为某种基督教道德是唯一有效的道德，或认为自己的国家永远不会犯错。

It's like an illusion could be the the authority of white men or that a certain kind of Christian morality is the only valid kind of morality or that, you know, one's country can do no wrong.

但我的问题是，在失去了这些旧有幻觉之后，我们该如何促进稳定与团结？

But my question is, how do we promote stability and solidarity in the absence of the old illusions?

我认为有一些非常深厚的文化传统值得保留，其中一些甚至比基督教还要古老。

I think that there are some really deep cultural traditions that are worth keeping, some of which are older than Christianity.

目前在美国发生的一件非常了不起的事，就是一些古老故事的复兴。

And one of the really magnificent things I see happening in The United States right now is the recovery of some of the really old stories.

因此，我觉得我们所追求的最好未来，正是通过回归最古老的故事构建起来的——重新认识到父权制并非必然、自然或人类唯一曾采用的方式；在美洲原住民文化、亚洲和非洲文化中，都存在母系传统。

And so I feel like part of the future, the best future we aim for is built by going back to the oldest stories, back to recognizing that patriarchy is not inevitable or natural or the only way people have ever done things, that there are in indigenous cultures of The Americas, in Asian and African cultures, there are matriarchal traditions.

许多狩猎采集社会似乎有着更多的性别平等。

A lot of hunter gatherers just seem to have a lot more gender equality.

所以我认为，你可以以更深层的过去为锚点向前迈进，期待一种稳定性，并与过去的古老故事建立更深的联系。

So I think you can move forward with anchors in a deeper past and hope for a kind of stability and a deeper relationship to the old stories in the past.

但为什么我们更容易内化我们所处世界中令人不安的、倒退的方面，而不是那些更积极的背景呢？

But why is it that it feels so much easier to internalize the upsetting aspects, the retrogressive aspects of the world we live in rather than the more positive context.

你知道，就像我们更容易被吸引去关注火焰，而不是平静的地方。

You know, it's like we're we're more drawn to pay attention to the fire than to the place where there's calm.

我想你明白我问这个问题的用意。

I think you understand what I'm getting at with this question.

我明白。

I do.

在某种程度上，你找错人了。

And in some ways, you're coming to the wrong person.

我的朋友萨姆叫我‘希望女士’，而我确实保持着希望，你知道，这在某种程度上是一种反抗。

My friend Sam calls me the hope lady, and I am you know, I remain hopeful and, you know, partly as defiance.

他们希望我们屈服，感到无能为力，认为我们什么都做不了。

They would like us to surrender, to feel powerless, that there's nothing we can do.

但我认为证据恰恰相反。

But I think the evidence speaks to that.

我认为你所探讨的其中一部分，是叙事本身。

I think part of it that you're addressing is narrative itself.

大多数故事都是某件事出了问题，然后我们不得不去应对。

On most stories are something goes wrong and then we have to address it.

当什么事都没出错时，实际上就没有任何故事。

And when nothing goes wrong, there's literally no story.

你走过丛林，花朵美极了，但你最好留意那只老虎，因为花朵不会吃掉你，但老虎会。

You walk through the jungle and the flowers are beautiful, but you better keep an eye on the tiger because the flowers aren't gonna eat you, but the tiger will.

你得时刻关注出错的地方。

You gotta keep an eye on what's wrong.

但我也认为，许多关于正确之事的故事，都是关于渐进式改变的故事。

But also, I think a lot of the stories of what's right are these stories of incremental change.

我感觉人们真正理解不了的一个故事，是千禧年之交发生的能源革命。

And one of the stories I feel people don't really comprehend is the energy revolution at the turn of the millennium.

我们当时几乎没有化石燃料的替代品，这正是为什么那么多人仍然被困在能源消费的节俭状态中——而这其实是一件好事。

We didn't really have an alternative to fossil fuel, which is part of why so many people are still stuck in a kind of austerity of energy consumption, which is a good thing.

但因为太阳能和风能突然变成了极其便宜、高效且适应性强的技术，我们现在几乎可以完全依靠可再生能源来满足地球上的所有需求，甚至拥有远超我们所需的能量。

But because solar and wind have suddenly become these incredibly cheap, incredibly effective, adaptable technologies, We can rent almost everything on Earth on renewables, have more energy than we could possibly use.

这其实是一个渐进式的故事。

And that's such an incremental story.

我觉得很少有人能理解它，因为它太技术化、太枯燥，而且讲的是一件非常渐进的事情。

I feel like very few people comprehend it because it's nerdy, it's technical, and it's really about something very incremental.

我得坦白一下我对可再生能源或清洁能源的扫兴看法：知道清洁能源是未来，确实让人感到安心。

I need to reveal my party pooper attitude about renewable energy or clean energy, which there there's a comfort in knowing that clean energy is the future.

但与此同时，美国正在开采比以往任何时候都更多的石油。

But at the same time, The United States is pumping more oil than ever before.

我们设定的全球气候变暖目标，你知道的，我们肯定会超越它们。

Our global climate temperature increase targets, you know, we're gonna blow past them.

我们完全不知道气温上升的反馈循环效应会是什么，这些影响会有多严重。

We have no idea what the feedback loop effects of rising temperature, what those effects will be, or how bad they'll get.

因此，尽管知道我们共同的能源未来是什么让人感到安心，但对我来说，这种安心却显得冰冷。

So while there is a comfort in knowing what our shared energy future is, it can feel like a cold comfort to me.

在气候运动中，冰冷是好事。

Well, cold is good in the climate movement.

你知道，当我们谈论舒适时，我对现状并不感到舒适。

You know, I and you talk about comfort, I am not comfortable with where we're at.

我是一名气候活动家。

I am a climate activist.

我捐了很多钱。

I donate a bunch.

我做了很多工作。

I do a bunch of work.

气候问题的奇妙与恐怖之处在于，地球上绝大多数人都支持气候行动。

The wonder and horror for climate is that the great majority of people on Earth support climate action.

他们希望看到自己的政府实施这些措施。

They wanna see their governments implement it.

他们希望看到周围的世界朝着更环保的方向转变，无论是在交通、城市规划、农业等方面。

They want to see the world around them change to a more climate friendly world, whether it's around transportation, urban design, agriculture, etcetera.

障碍并不是技术性的。

The obstacles are not technological.

而是政治性的，以及一小部分既得利益者——化石燃料行业，以及那些本身或服务于化石燃料行业的富人、权贵和政府官员——正在阻碍我们前进。

They're not you know, they're political, and a minority of vested interests, the fossil fuel industry, and the the rich and powerful and governmental figures who either are or serve the fossil fuel industry are what's holding us back.

因此，奇迹与恐惧并存。

And so the wonder and horror exists side by side.

这正是我试图接纳的复杂性的一部分。

That's part of the complexity I try and embrace.

你可以为正在发生的一切感到振奋，同时为本应发生却未发生的一切感到震惊。

You can be thrilled by all the things that are happening and horrified by all the things that should be happening but aren't.

因此，我们能拯救的每一件事都值得去拯救。

And so, everything we can save is worth saving.

我们能做的每一件事都值得去做。

Everything we can do is worth doing.

我们每阻止零点一度的气温上升，都能拯救一些地方、物种和社区等。

Every tenth of a degree we can prevent of temperature rise, saves places, species, communities, etcetera.

所以，当然我们会失去很多。

So, of course, we're gonna lose a lot.

我们已经失去很多了，但我们不必失去一切，也不必放弃。

We've already lost a lot, but we don't have to lose everything, and we don't have to surrender.

哎呀，你让我激动起来了。

Oh, you got me all worked up.

我觉得可能没花多少时间。

I feel like it probably didn't take that much.

你知道的，我只是对这些事情充满热情。

You know, I'm just passionate about these things.

这些事都值得去做。

They are so worth doing.

这一切远未结束，我们也不知道接下来会发生什么。

It is so not over, and we don't know what's gonna happen next.

我深受1989年天安门广场革命的影响，那最终是一场悲剧，尽管它可能播下了一些种子，但我们并不知道。

And I was so shaped by the nineteen eighty nine revolutions on Tiananmen Square, ultimately was a tragedy, although it may have sown some seeds, we don't know.

但我回去阅读了大量1989年英语世界媒体的报道。

But I went back and read a bunch of the media in the English speaking world in the sort of 1989.

当时没有人预见到东德、波兰、匈牙利、捷克斯洛伐克以及其他东欧国家的动荡会如此加剧，或者他们只是认为这将导致混乱，而政府人士总是害怕这种混乱。

Nobody foresaw that all that unrest in East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the other Eastern European countries was gonna mount too much, or they just thought it was gonna be chaos, which, you know, governmental people are always afraid of.

他们竟然能在几乎同一时间——10月和11月——以非暴力的方式推翻整个苏联主导的东欧地区的极权主义，这简直难以想象。

The fact that they would topple totalitarianism across that whole swath of Soviet dominated Eastern Europe, largely nonviolently, almost all at once in October and November, was really inconceivable.

我认为，连亲历者自己也未曾料到这一点，而明白我们并不知道，是一种非常重要的认知，因为假装自己知道其实并不知道，是愚蠢且具有误导性的，我真希望更多人能为此稍微道歉一点，是的。

And I think it was inconceivable to the people who did it, and knowing that we don't know is a really important kind of knowledge because pretending you do know when you don't is stupid and misleading and something I wish a few more people would apologize a bit more Yeah.

关于所有那些本被认为永远不会发生、或注定会发生，但最终并非如此的事情。

For about all these all these things that were never gonna happen or were inevitable that, you know, that turned out not to be quite that way.

你知道，如果我们谈论能够带来积极变革的反叙事，我认为过去几年里一个标志性的反叙事，大致可以归入‘抵抗’这一范畴，或者另一个在某种程度上相关、可称为‘觉醒主义’的概念。

You know, if we're talking about counternarratives that can lead to positive change, I think one of the defining counter narratives of the last few years could loosely fall under the umbrella of, you know, the resistance or another thing that is related in some ways might be called wokeism.

我想听听你对针对特朗普和特朗普主义的某些策略或手段是否适得其反的看法。

And I would like to hear your perspective on whether any of the strategies or tactics against Trump and Trumpism have maybe been counterproductive.

因为我在想，无论个人是否认为这些术语真正适用，把特朗普及其运动称为法西斯主义、性别歧视、种族主义，会不会反而把人们推到了各自的阵营，甚至疏远了那些本可能加入进步阵营的人？

Because I I wonder if, you know, calling him in the movement, you know, fascist, sexist, racist, almost regardless of of whether or not an individual thinks that those terms are legitimately applicable, has pushed people into their respective corners and maybe alienated people who, you know, might otherwise be brought into the progressive fold.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，你觉得过去十年在应对方面有没有什么失误？

So do you think there have been any missteps over the last ten years in terms of

这根本算不上我们最严重的问题。

And that's the least of our problems.

我的意思是，他们就是种族主义者。

I mean, they are racist.

他们就是威权主义者。

They are authoritarian.

他们就是厌女者。

They are misogynist.

他们是恐同的。

They are homophobic.

回避这些问题，保护的是施害者，而不是仇恨与歧视的受害者。

And tiptoeing around it protects them and not the targets of the hatred and discrimination.

我实在厌倦了这种观点，认为进步派在主张每个人都应享有基本人权时走得太远——当人们在明尼阿波利斯的街头被枪杀，我们正面临如此可怕的暴行时，礼貌根本不是问题的根源。

I just get so tired of the idea that progressives have gone too far in asserting that, like, every human being deserves human rights when people are being shot in the streets of Minneapolis, and we are facing such horrific brutality that politeness is not really the problem to start with.

我认为，我们陷入这种局面，部分原因是主流社会中许多人认为，保持友善和礼貌，比直呼事物的真名更重要。

I think we got into this situation in part by a lot of people in the mainstream thinking it was more important to be nice and polite, than call things by their true names.

这真的是极端的行径。

This is really extreme stuff.

如果我们需要用极端的语言来描述它，那就让我们真实、准确且勇敢地表达吧。

If we need to use extreme language to describe it, let's be truthful, let's be accurate, and let's be bold.

有一位研究非暴力的杰出历史学家、学者名叫乔治·莱基，他说两极分化是好事。

And there's a wonderful historian, scholar of nonviolence named George Lakey, who says polarization is good.

那正是你获得清晰认知的时候。

That's when you have clarity.

有时候人们必须站队。

Sometimes people have to pick sides.

你知道，你不能通过软弱、温和和礼貌来让专制者表现得更好。

And, you know, you do not get authoritarians to behave better by being meek and gentle and polite.

你要通过坚强才能做到。

You get it by being strong.

我想

I'd like to

谢谢你的提问。

Thank you for asking.

不。

No.

谢谢你的回答。

Thank you for answering.

但我想换个话题聊一会儿。

But I I wanna switch subjects for a minute.

因为你因为你的书《男人向我解释事情》获得了大量关注，这本书我认为是2014年出版的。

Because you got a lot of attention for your book, Men Explain Things to Me, which I think was published 2014.

是的。

Yes.

这本书改编自你写的一篇广为传播的随笔，这篇随笔被认为帮助普及了‘男性中心式解释’这个术语，尽管我认为这个词实际上并没有出现在这篇随笔里。

Adapted from an essay you wrote that that went viral, an essay that was credited with helping popularize the term mansplaining, even though that I think the term does not appear in the essay.

但你认为，在这篇随笔走红的过程中，有什么内容被遗漏或误解了吗？

But was there anything about that book or that essay that you think got lost somewhere along the path to virality?

是的。

Yeah.

没有。

No.

我是在1988年2月写的这篇随笔，当时我已经开玩笑多年说要写一篇叫《男人向我解释事情》的文章，而作为作家，你从来无法预知读者会如何回应——这正是写作的魅力之一，至少对我来说是这样，我不确定。

I wrote the essay in 02/1988 after joking for years that I was gonna write an essay called Men Explain Things to Me, and you never really know what you're doing as a writer in terms of you don't know how the audience will respond, which is one of the glories of it, you know, at least for me, I don't know.

然后它突然变得超级火爆。

And it went super viral then.

它以各种有趣的方式被传播开来。

It got sent around in a bunch of interesting ways.

但让我有点不安的是，人们喜欢一遍又一遍地讲述那个原始的轶事，那件事发生在2003年，当时我路过科罗拉多州奢华的阿斯彭，参加了一场满是名流的奢华派对，而那位奢华的主人

But what I find a little disturbing is that people love to tell the original anecdote over and over, which had happened in 2003 when I was passing through swanky Aspen, Colorado, and got taken to this swanky party full of swanky people, and the swanky host

听起来挺奢华的。

Sounds swanky.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，那不是我的风格。

And, you know, not my scene.

当我们试图离开派对时，他让我们坐下，说：听说你写过几本书，而我当时已经写了七本。

When I we were trying to leave the party, and he sat us down and said, so I hear you've written a few books, and I'd written seven.

那都是关于什么的？

And what are they about?

他说，最近的一本是关于摄影师爱德华·穆布里奇的，他的革命性技术为电影的诞生奠定了基础。

He said, the most recent one was about Edward Muybridge, the photographer whose revolutionary technologies laid the groundwork for the birth of cinema.

他说：‘哦，你读过那本刚刚出版的关于穆布里奇的重要著作吗？结果那本书竟是我的。’

And he said, oh, have you read about the very important Muybridge book that had just come out, and it turned out to be mine?

这是一个非常有趣的故事。

It's a very funny anecdote.

但这也应该是一个令人震惊的故事，揭示了女性多么不被倾听。

It's also should be a horrifying anecdote about how deeply not listened to women are.

但那本书中的下一个故事是关于一个女人在半夜尖叫着冲出家门，说她的丈夫想杀她；我二十多岁时男友的叔叔，一位核物理学家，给我讲了这个故事，觉得很好笑，因为他深信自己所在的社会阶层和郊区的现实。

But the next anecdote in that book is about a woman running, screaming out of her house in the middle of the night, saying that her husband is trying to kill her, and a nuclear physicist, the uncle of my boyfriend in my twenties, told me that anecdote and thought it was funny because he firmly believed in his upper middle class nuclear physicist suburb.

男人不会杀自己的妻子，但女人都是疯子。

Men do not try to kill their wives, but women are crazy.

但事实上，男人经常杀害自己的妻子，包括在上中产阶级的白人郊区，而女性则常常因为没人相信她们而死去——无论她们说身体出了问题需要医疗帮助，还是说有人想杀她们。

And men kill their wives all the time, including in upper middle class white suburbs, and women die all the time of not being believed, whether they say that, you know, something's going on with their body, they need medical care, or they say a man's trying to kill them.

但没人讲这个故事，而我认为它实际上重要得多。

And nobody talks about that anecdote, which I think is actually much more important.

所以当每个人都乐于讲述这个开场故事时，我感到这种状况的严重性被严重低估了。

So I felt that the enormity of the situation really got underestimated when everybody enjoyed telling that opening anecdote.

我并不后悔我当初的写法。

And I don't regret the way I wrote it.

我是一口气在某个早晨写完的，因为那个故事确实引起了人们的关注。

I wrote it in one sitting, one morning, because that anecdote really kind of got people's attention.

但我只是希望人们能全面看待整个事情，而不仅仅是开头的部分。

But I just wish people would kind of hold the whole thing rather than that opening.

我想问问讲故事的潜在局限性，因为讲故事的力量——那种变革性的、社会性的力量——在你的作品中经常出现。

I wanna ask about the possible limits of storytelling because the the power of storytelling, the transformative the socially transformative power of storytelling is something that comes up in your work a lot.

再说一次，作为一个大卫·道纳，你知道，我觉得我们可以回顾过去十年，作为一个时间跨度来说，嘿。

And, again, to be a David Downer, you know, I I think we can look at the, you know, last ten years to take a a span of time and say, hey.

在过去十年里，关于各种议题——无论是警察暴力、气候危机还是性侵——都出现了更多有力的、第一人称的叙事。

You know, over the last ten years, there has been more powerful storytelling and powerful first person storytelling about any number of things, whether it's police abuse or the climate crisis or sexual assault.

但与此同时，人们也可以合理地认为，尽管充斥着如此强大的叙事，但那些催生这些叙事的根本性系统性问题不仅没有改善，甚至在某些情况下可能变得更糟。

At the same time, one could plausibly argue that despite being awash in all this powerful storytelling, the underlying systemic issues that necessitate that storytelling not only maybe aren't improving, but in in some cases are perhaps getting worse.

那么，这是否暗示着，讲故事只有在与其他多种策略和手段相结合时才能有效？

So does that maybe suggest that storytelling can only be effective within a a constellation of other strategies and tactics?

我认为绝对需要其他策略和手段。

I think absolutely there have to be other strategies and tactics.

始终重要的是要认识到，故事可能具有破坏性、禁锢性。

It's always important to recognize that stories can be destructive, imprisoning.

它们既能揭示真相，也能掩盖真相。

They can obscure the truth as well as reveal the truth.

有一段时间，人们到处宣扬‘故事难道不是很美好吗？’

There's this period a while back when people were kind of flouncing around with this, aren't stories wonderful?

但也存在用来合理化白人至上主义、厌女症和环境破坏的故事。

And there are stories to justify white supremacy, misogyny, environmental destruction.

右翼有他们自己的故事，而这个政权必须不断撒谎，这充分说明了他们是谁。

The right has its stories, which the fact that this regime has to lie constantly says a lot about who they are.

但没错，故事可能是破坏性的。

But, yeah, stories can be destructive.

很多故事都会过度简化。

A lot of stories can oversimplify.

我经常看到左派人士讲述的故事，而左派本身其实包含许多不同的声音，并非铁板一块，这些故事往往深受其自身教条主义和怨恨情绪的驱动，常常是过度简化的叙事。

I do often see the stories people on the left tell, and the left, I think, is a lot of different things, not a monolith, as very driven by their own version of sectarianism, grievance, often stories of oversimplification.

那个类别里的每个人都这样，这个类别里的每个人都那样。

Everyone in that that category was like this, and everyone in this category is like that.

我经常谈到，类别本身是流动的，而我努力去做的，就是帮助人们获得更复杂的理解。

And I talk a lot about the fact that categories are leaky and often see one of the jobs I try and do is just trying to give people more complex understandings.

所以，是的，我认为故事是能替我们完成一切工作的神奇工具这种想法，本身就是一个糟糕的故事。

So, yeah, I think the idea that stories are these magical devices that will do all our work for us is itself a bad story.

但故事往往只是开端。

But the story is often only the beginning.

当你改变了一个故事，这并不能解决所有问题，但它常常是改变其他一切的起点。

When you change the story, that doesn't fix everything, but it often is the beginning of changing everything else.

丽贝卡，非常感谢你今天抽出这么多时间与我交谈。

Rebecca, thank you very much for taking all the time to speak with me today.

我非常感激。

I appreciate it.

我期待下周再和你交谈。

And I'm looking forward to talking to you again next week.

这真是一场狂奔。

That was a wild gallop.

我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

广告结束后，丽贝卡和我再次讨论她希望民主党人采取的不同做法。

After the break, Rebecca and I speak again about what she wishes Democrats would do differently.

我看到左翼正在准备攻击加文·纽森，以防他成为2028年的候选人，这让我心里很沉重。

I'm watching the left gear up to attack Gavin Newsom just in case he's the nominee in 2028, and it kinda makes my heart sink.

你好。

Hi.

我叫桑德拉·E·加西亚，是《纽约时报》的记者。

My name is Sandra e Garcia, and I'm a reporter at The New York Times.

我为《风格版》撰稿，我们通过关注文化来理解这个复杂的世界。

I write for The Styles Desk, where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture.

我们想带您走近文化变革的前沿，让您了解为什么某些事物正在走红。

We wanna take you to the forefront of cultural shifts and let you know why things are trending.

我们的订阅读者让这种报道成为可能，使《纽约时报》能够继续关注超越突发新闻的故事。

Our subscribers make this kind of coverage possible so The New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news.

请通过订阅 nytimes.com/subscribe 来帮助我们持续关注文化动态。

Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes.com/subscribe.

丽贝卡，很高兴能再次和你交谈。

Rebecca, I'm happy to be speaking to you again.

我也是，大卫。

Likewise, David.

你给我准备了什么内容？

What have you got for me?

你知道吗，我之前跟你说过一件事，我一直在思考，想做个修正。

You know, there's something that I said to you earlier that I I've been thinking about and and want to amend.

我们之前在讨论绿色能源转型，还有就是，是的。

We were talking about green energy transition and how Yeah.

清洁能源，你知道的，确实在不断上升。

How clean energy you know, it's definitively on the rise.

我悲观地想了一些类似的问题，但其实对这个说法有些挑剔。

And I pessimistically did some like, well, but kind of quibbling with that.

我一直在思考这件事。

I was thinking about that.

我觉得，我之前说的那番话真是愚蠢。

Was like, well, that was a stupid thing to say.

显然，任何类型的清洁能源转型都应当被鼓励，我们能阻止的每十分之一度的升温都至关重要。

Like, obviously, any sort of clean energy transition is to be encouraged, and every tenth of a degree of warming that we can prevent really matters.

我想，当我们讨论这个问题时，让我有点反感的是这种观点：市场能帮助解决气候危机。

I think what got my back up a little bit when we were talking about that was this idea that somehow the market will help solve the climate crisis.

尽管市场恰恰是最初让我们陷入气候危机的根源。

Even though the market is kind of the thing that got us into the climate crisis in the in the first place.

所以，我想这就是我之前那番话的由来。

So I I think that's where my comment was coming from.

我并不想显得像个虚无主义者之类的人。

I didn't I didn't wanna come off like a kind of nihilist or something like that.

谢谢。

Well, thank you.

我以为你只是在唱反调。

I figured you're just playing devil's advocate.

是的，我确实想过那十分之一度的问题。

And, yeah, I thought about that tenth of a degree thing.

这是其中一个复杂的地方。

And it's one of the complex things.

我总是觉得，我在要求人们接受细微差别和灰色地带，接受矛盾与复杂性。

And it's I always feel like I'm asking people to go for nuance and shades of gray rather than black and white, and the existence of contradictions and complexities.

你必须同时接受两件事：仍然有很多值得希望的，也有很多值得哀悼的，而这两者可以同时存在。

You really have to hold both, that there's still a lot to hope for and there's a lot to mourn, and those things can exist at the same time.

我觉得我们遇到的很多问题，都源于那些需要非黑即白故事的人。

I feel like a lot of the trouble we get in is people who need those all or nothing stories.

他们经常字面意义上地听到我说，如果我们没有失去一切，那你们一定觉得我说我们赢得了全部，但我从未这样说过。

And they literally hear me too often as saying, if we're not losing everything, then surely you just said we're winning everything, and I'm never saying that.

因此，你完全可以对气候变化既感到心碎又充满振奋，同时继续投入工作——尽管这项工作一直面临巨大阻力，包括来自美国当前这个糟糕透顶的政府的阻力。

And so you can be kind of heartbroken and exhilarated about climate at the same time and, you know, show up and keep doing the work, which keeps getting done with a lot of pushback, including from the current horrendous administration here in The US.

无论涉及环境退化、政治堕落，还是人性的沦丧，对我来说，公众似乎迫切渴望有一个人能成为特朗普和特朗普主义的真正制衡力量或对立面。

Well, whether it's to do with environmental degradation or or degradation of our politics or degradation of people, it really seems to me like the public is hungry for an individual to be some sort of real counterweight or foil to Trump and Trumpism.

我不知道这个人是不是佐兰·马曼达尼，但加文·纽森显然正在努力把自己塑造成这样一个人。

And, you know, I don't know whether that person is Zoran Mamdani or Gavin Newsom is is clearly trying to position himself as that person.

我很想听听你对他的看法。

I'd be interested in in knowing your thoughts about him.

但不知为何，这样一个人至今尚未被识别出来，或者尚未主动站出来表明自己。

But for whatever reason, that person has yet to be identified or or yet to identify themself.

你认为这是为什么？

Why do you think that is?

我经常觉得，我们这个时代的一大弱点在于，我们一遍又一遍地看到孤胆超级英雄电影，暗示我们的重大问题只能靠穿着紧身衣、肌肉发达的男子解决，他们的超能力就是施加和承受超常暴力的能力。

I often think one of the great kind of weaknesses of our era is that we get lone superhero movies over and over that suggests that our big problems are solved by muscly guys in spandex whose superpower's ability to inflict and endure extraordinary violence.

而实际上，世界大多是通过集体努力改变的，这让我想起太虚大师在几年前去世前说过的一句话：下一个佛陀将是僧团。

When actually the world mostly gets changed through collective effort, it brings up something really beautiful that Thich Nhat Hanh said at some point before he died a few years ago, which is the next Buddha will be the sangha.

在佛教术语中，僧团指的是修行者的社群。

The sangha in Buddhist terminology is the community of practitioners.

所以我们不必再去寻找某个个体、救世主或超人。

So the idea that we don't have to look for an individual, for a savior, for an Ubermensch.

也许，社群才是下一个英雄。

Maybe the community is the next hero.

而明尼阿波利斯正是如此。

And that's exactly what Minneapolis is.

我认为，对抗特朗普的始终是、也永远会是公民社会。

And I think the counter to Trump always has been and always will be civil society.

人们总是贬低所谓的‘葡萄酒妈妈’。

There's all this disparagement about wine moms.

我昨天读了两篇文章，一篇来自左翼，另一篇发表在《新共和》上，都批评了中间派对反特朗普运动的轻视。

And I read two things yesterday, one from the left, one in the New Republic about centrist despising Trump resistance.

而我们这些制造噪音的人，常常被贴上女性的标签，比如歇斯底里、情绪激动、需要冷静下来、没什么大不了的等等。

And those of us who are making a racket were often coded female as in hysterical, overwrought, need to calm down, no big deal, etcetera.

而且左派也时不时地对‘喝葡萄酒的妈妈们’进行抨击。

And the left also, you know, was taking some swipes at wine moms.

你知道吗，当我半夜醒来时想到，大量重要的工作其实是那些温柔的女性完成的。

And, you know, a huge amount of the important work, I was thinking about this when I woke up in the middle of the night, is done by nice ladies.

我认为，很多有平台的人以及左派中的许多人，希望社会变革看起来像法国大革命或切·格瓦拉那样的样子。

And I think a lot of people with platforms and a lot of the left want social change to look like, you know, the French Revolution or Che Guevara or something like that.

所以，那些温柔的女性实际上改变了世界，这或许是因为改变世界更像是一种照料，而不是战争，但太多人仍然期待它看起来像战争。

And so the fact that nice ladies actually change the world, maybe it's about the fact that changing the world is more like caregiving than it is like war, but too many people still expect it to look like war.

我瞧不起我不尊重的政治家，称他们为袜子。

And I denigrate politicians I don't respect as socks.

我觉得很多亿万富翁也是风向标。

I think a lot of our billionaires are also wind socks.

你知道，当奥巴马执政时，他们看起来是自由派，而成为自由派有助于他们在事业上前进。

You know, they looked liberal when Obama was president, and being liberal got you ahead in your pursuits.

他们现在变成了右翼权威主义者，只是因为风向变了。

They now have become right wing authoritarians because the wind's blowing direction.

如果特朗普下台了，我不知道是奥卡西奥-科尔特斯或者其他什么人当上总统，他们的风向就会转向另一个方向。

If Trump falls and, I don't know, AOC or whatever becomes president, their wind is gonna blow in another direction.

但我只是希望我们能明白，绝大多数重要的变革都是集体性的。

But, I just want us to understand that most most of the important change is collective.

你觉得纽森州长是个风向标吗？

Do you think governor Newsom is a wind sock?

不完全是。

Not exactly.

我觉得他呢，我想他试图通过模仿特朗普来对抗特朗普，这种做法可能曾经有过效果。

I do think he's you know, I think his trying to counter Trump by sound making fun of Trump by sounding like Trump might have had its moment.

但这也是其中一件事，我看着左派正准备攻击加文·纽森，就怕他成为2028年的候选人，这让我心里很沉重。

But it's also one of those things, I'm watching the left gear up to attack Gavin Newsom just in case he's the nominee in 2028, and it kinda makes my heart sink.

所以我看着人们不断贬低阿尔·戈尔。

So I watch people tear down Al Gore.

我看着人们贬低希拉里·克林顿。

I watch people tear down Hillary Clinton.

我看着人们贬低乔·拜登和卡玛拉·哈里斯。

I watch people tear down Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

他们每个人确实都有很多值得批评的地方。

And there's definitely major things to critique about every one of them.

但在当下，当任务是击败对手时，一旦我们这么做，实际上就是在击败自己。

But at the moment, when, you know, like, the job is to defeat the other guy, you know, we defeat ourselves when that's what happens.

我想再回到你的新书上。

I wanna go back to your new book for a second.

所以你的新书讲的是社会和政治变革的必然性，但我们的个人生活中也存在着不可避免的转变。

So the new book is kind of about the inevitability of social and political change, but there's also an inevitability to personal change in all our lives.

是的。

Mhmm.

你有没有经历过某种个人转变，影响了你对世界更大变革的看法或反应？

Has there been a personal change that you went through that affected how you think about or respond to bigger change in the world?

有太多这样的例子了，很难挑出其中一个。

I and there's so many of them that it's hard to pick out one.

我时不时会经历一些有趣的事，我想很多人也有类似经历，尤其是那些足够年长、记得七八十年代和九十年代的人。

I have an interesting experience every now and again that I think a lot of people have, especially if you're old enough to remember the eighties and the nineties and let alone the seventies.

当你回到一段你曾经珍视的记忆时，却发现它当时充满了种族主义、性别歧视或残忍，而这些在当时我们或许没注意到，也没有相应的认知或语言去描述，但如今已不再正常或可接受。

You go back to something that you remember fondly, and you find out it's just racist or sexist or cruel in some way that we kinda didn't notice or have tools or language for that was normal then, that's not so normal and acceptable now.

这样的事情太多了。

And there's so many things.

我写了一本关于《紫雨》的书，这部电影1984年上映时我很喜欢，疫情期间我又试着重看了一遍。

I wrote this book about Purple Rain, which I loved when it came out in 1984 and tried to watch during the pandemic.

我非常喜欢王子。

I love Prince.

我喜欢这部电影中那些具有女性主义色彩的部分。

I love what feminist things the movie has.

但电影中对普莉普莉奥尼亚——王子的恋人——的严重虐待却被当作笑料处理，并被合理化了。

But there's a lot of just big time abuse of Apollonia, Prince's love interest, that was kind of played for laughs and normalized in that movie.

我只是想，当我二十出头看这部电影时，那时的我是什么样子？那时我甚至没有足够的语言或空间去意识到这些行为是不对的。

And I just thought, who was I when I was in my early twenties watching that movie without even the language or the space in which to feel that that stuff wasn't okay.

因为如果觉得不对，你就只是和整个世界对着干。

Because if it wasn't okay, you were just at odds with the world.

你知道，那时候你根本无处安放这种感受。

You you know, there's kind of no place to go with it.

所以我可能只是跟着一起笑了。

So I probably just laughed along.

所以，是的，我会想，我改变了很多，而我的改变其实和整个社会的变迁密不可分。

So, yeah, I think about, you know, I have changed so much, and my change isn't really separate from the social change.

在很多方面，我们所有人都被重新教育了，或者第一次被教导了这么多事情。

And in so many ways, we've all been reeducated around so many or educated around so many things.

我能问个问题吗？

Can I just ask?

我是Prince的铁粉，而且自从他去世后，陆续有消息传出他对待女性的方式。

I'm a big Prince fan, and I think there there's been stuff that's come out since he died about his treatment of women.

而且，你是在暗示，文化已经以某种方式发生了变化，使得他对女性的态度——或者看似对女性的态度——被赋予了不同的解读。

And also, like, you're suggesting that the culture has moved in certain ways that cast his attitude towards women or what seems like his attitude towards women was in a different light.

你现在如何看待像他这样的人的艺术呢？

How do you think differently about the art of of someone like that now?

这真的要看情况。

And it really depends.

我认为，在我戴手表之前——如果我有手表，我大概十分钟前就会看一眼——那些创作艺术的男性，几乎没有人不是这样的，当然也有一些例外，但如果你回溯到足够久以前，我就说不准了。

I don't think there's a man who made art before if I had a wristwatch, I'd check it, you know, about ten minutes ago, who was not you know, there's some, but you go back a certain amount of time and I don't know.

我有一位很棒的英语教授，佩隆博士，他常说：幸运的是，莎士比亚没读过弗洛伊德。

I had a wonderful English professor, doctor Pelon, who used to say, but fortunately, Shakespeare hadn't read Freud.

你知道，我们不能要求过去的人拥有我们的价值观。

You know, that there is a way in which we can't ask people from long ago to have our values.

历史学家称之为‘现时主义’。

There's historians call it presentism.

这要看情况。

It depends.

我认为有些人并没有比他们的时代更进步，但有些东西，你知道，过去就挺丑陋的，现在更是令人反感。

And I think there's some people who weren't better than their times, but some of that stuff, you know, is just was kinda ugly then and is really ugly now.

不知怎么的，这在对话中被提了出来，我觉得是因为伍迪·艾伦在爱泼斯坦的文件中被频繁提及，作为他亲密的朋友。

And it came up somehow in conversation, I think, because Woody Allen is all over the Epstein papers as a good buddy of Epstein's.

我最近看的一部伍迪·艾伦的电影是《曼哈顿》。

The last Woody Allen movie I saw was Manhattan.

我和电影里那个扮演他爱情对象的17岁（或16岁）女孩同龄，那个中年猥琐男的爱情对象，这让我感到非常不适。

I'm exactly the same age as the 17 year old or six 16 year old who played his love interest, the middle aged schlub guy's love interest in the movie, and it creeped me out.

七十年代末，我认识过这种男人，他们真的很令人毛骨悚然，我感到厌恶，从此再也没看过一部伍迪·艾伦的电影。

I knew those kind of guys in the late seventies, and they were creepy, and I was repelled, and I've never seen a Woody Allen movie since.

我想念一段你回忆录《我非存在之回忆》里的话，然后问你关于它的看法。

I wanna read a line from your memoir, Recollections of My Nonexistence, and then ask you about it.

所以这句话是：现在有时我会羡慕那些刚刚踏上漫长人生道路的人，他们前方仍有无数选择，道路不断分叉再分叉。

So the line is, sometimes now I envy those people who are at the beginning of the long road of the lives they'll make, who still have so many decisions ahead as the road forks and forks again.

你已经不再处于人生漫长道路的起点了。

You're no longer at the beginning of the long road of your life.

是的

Yeah.

你能看到即将到来的某个令人兴奋、关键或重大的决定吗？

Can you see an exciting or pivotal or or momentous decision coming?

除了再也不做任何书展巡演之外，没有。

Other than refusing to ever do another book tour, no.

而且，你知道，我对目前所走的路很满意。

And, you know, I'm pretty happy with the path I'm on.

事实上，我成长过程中，总有人告诉我对自己要降低期望。

And really, I grew up with people telling me to have low expectations for myself.

我妈妈直截了当地告诉我，当我二十多岁的时候，我的写作只是个爱好，我应该永远依附在我那位正在离开的、成功又可爱的男友身上。

My mom told me point blank that my writing was just a hobby when I was in my mid twenties and that I should just glom onto my lovely successful boyfriend forever who was in the process of leaving.

我父亲给我的唯一建议，我想，就是我应该选商科，因为我根本不可能靠人文学科谋生。

My father told me the only advice he ever gave me, I think, was I should be a business major because I'd never make a living in the humanities.

我从未预料到自己会有这样的发展轨迹，因此我对这一切感到非常欣喜。

And I didn't really expect to quite have the trajectory I did, and so I'm kind of thrilled with it.