《访谈录》：卡梅伦·克罗怎么了？他有答案。

历史上获奖最多的体操运动员西蒙·拜尔斯相信显化的力量。2016年里约夏季奥运会上那些令人惊叹的成就？她全都写了下来，并归功于母亲让她和兄弟姐妹们养成了将目标付诸文字的习惯。拜尔斯回顾了她人生中五个最大的转折点。更多内容请阅读nytimes.com/ubs-biles。

The most decorated gymnast in history, Simone Biles, believes in the power of manifestation. Those stunning achievements at the twenty sixteen Summer Games in Rio? She had them all written down and credits her mom for making it a habit for her and her siblings to put their goals in writing. Biles revisits five of her life's biggest turning points. Read more at nytimes.com/ubs-biles.

这里是《纽约时报》的访谈节目，我是大卫·马切斯。作为一名前摇滚记者，卡梅伦·克罗的职业生涯总是显得酷得不可思议且难以复制。他七十年代十几岁时就开始了职业生涯，为《滚石》杂志跟随齐柏林飞艇、老鹰乐队和大卫·鲍伊等乐队巡演并混在一起。相信我，现在不会再发生这种事了。

From The New York Times, this is the interview. I'm David Marchese. As a former rock journalist myself, Cameron Crowe's career always seemed impossibly cool and impossible to replicate. He got his start as a teenager in the seventies, going on the road and hanging out with the likes of Led Zeppelin, the Eagles, and David Bowie for Rolling Stone magazine. Trust me, that does not happen anymore.

他最终将这些经历以及他母亲对此完全合理的担忧，转化成了他执导的经典电影《几近成名》（二月上映），并为他赢得了奥斯卡最佳原创剧本奖。这些经历也是他新回忆录《不酷》的支柱。但该书紧紧聚焦于那些早期岁月，意味着还有很多内容未被挖掘。这包括克罗转型为《情到深处》、《单身一族》、《甜心先生》等深受喜爱影片的编剧导演，以及一些更棘手的话题，比如他与音乐家南希·威尔逊婚姻的结束，以及一些人（包括我自己）认为的他近期作品质量的真实变化。那么，发生了什么？

He would eventually turn those experiences and his mother's completely understandable worries about them into his classic film Almost Famous from February, which he directed and which won him the Academy Award for best original screenplay. Those experiences are also the backbone of his new memoir, The Uncool. But the book's tight focus on those early days means there's kind of a lot left untapped. That includes Crow's transition to writer director of beloved films like Say Anything, Singles, Jerry Maguire, as well as some thornier subjects, like the end of his marriage to musician Nancy Wilson, and what some people, myself included, see as a real change in the quality of his more recent work. So what happened?

这些更艰难的事情是否削弱了他早期成功核心的理想主义？有很多可以聊的。以下是我与卡梅伦·克罗的对话。卡梅伦，感谢你今天抽时间与我交谈。

And has any of that tougher stuff chipped away at the idealism at the center of his earlier successes? There's a lot to talk about. Here's my conversation with Cameron Crowe. Cameron, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.

很高兴能进行这次对话，也感谢你抽时间。

So great to be doing this, and thanks for you taking the time.

你知道，这本回忆录在某种程度上与《几近成名》的故事有重叠。是的。无论是你职业生涯的开端，还是你当时所经历的一些家庭动态，尤其是和你母亲之间。嗯。《几近成名》我想它上映差不多正好是二十五年前。

You know, so the memoir overlaps with the almost famous story in a way. Yeah. You know, both in terms of of the beginning of your career and some of the family dynamics that you were living through at the time, particularly with your mom. Mhmm. But Almost Famous, I think it came out almost exactly twenty five years ago.

你思考人生的这个部分，这些成长... 是的... 经历，已经很久了。你真的已经反反复复琢磨这些材料很多很多年了。我是个囤积狂。你还在试图弄清楚什么？

You've been thinking about this part of your life, these formative Yeah. Experiences for a long time now. You've really been working through this material for years and years and years. I'm a pack rat. What are you still trying to figure out?

我觉得你也许是个情感上的囤积狂。你还在琢磨什么？

I think you're maybe an emotional pack rat. What are you still figuring out?

说得真好。嗯，我... 我热爱那个情感上一切都意味着生死存亡的时代，你真切地感受事物，还没有建立起那么多层皮革般的厚脸皮。就像，哦，是的。当我刚开始做导演时，真正让我抓狂的事情之一就是当人们会说，比如，‘不是那样做的。让我来告诉你该怎么做。’

Really well said. Well, I I love that time when everything meant life or death emotionally, and you really felt things, and you hadn't built up, like, many layers of leather like skin. Like, oh, yeah. And when I first started directing, one of the things that really drove me crazy was when people would say, like, that's not how it's done. Let me let me show you how it works.

而他们似乎没有快乐。我... 我想永远不忘追随梦想、在世界上找到你他妈的声音的那种快乐体验，这对我来说有时是一种年轻的体验，有时直到你生命的后期才会发生。但我热爱找到那种舒适地带的旅程，在那里你知道，比如，这就是我作为作家的样子。这甚至可能就是我作为一个人的样子。所以我想确保我写的东西捕捉到了那种感觉，不是透过时间的迷雾，不是透过一堵厚厚的... 你知道，玻璃墙，你在那里看到，你知道，是的。

And they didn't seem to have joy. And I I wanted to never forget the joyful experience of following your dream and finding your fucking voice in the world, which to me is sometimes a youthful experience, and sometimes it doesn't happen until late in your life. But I loved the journey of of finding that kind of comfortable place where you know, like, this is who I am as a writer. This may even be who I am as a person. So I wanted to make sure that I wrote something that captured that feeling, not through the mists of time, not through, like, a thick wall a thick, you know, glass wall where you see, you know, yes.

过去就是这样的。我想写些关于鲍伊还在世时的故事。格伦·弗雷也还在世。我纯粹为了乐趣而写，后来知道它终将出版。但我在帕利塞德山火发生前夜点击发送了书稿，本以为第二天会去吞噬我们房子的火场。

That's how it used to be. I wanted to write something about the time when Bowie was still alive. Glenn Frey was still alive. And I wrote it for pure pleasure, and then eventually I knew it was gonna get published. But I I pressed send on the manuscript the night before the Palisades fire, showed up to to, I thought, consume our house.

所以我记得当时在想：好了，稿子寄出去了。就算失去一切，我至少写出了这本凝聚所有记忆与珍藏的作品。我为此感到非常自豪。

So I remember thinking like, okay. I sent it in. If I lose everything, I did write the thing that kind of captured the sum total of all those memories and everything I kept. So I'm really proud of it.

能带我回到你19岁时的某个瞬间吗？当你正做着自己热爱的事，突然意识到：啊，一切正在发生。

Can you put me back in a in a moment when you were, you know, 19 years old, doing what you were doing, and you thought, well, it's all happening.

其实更早就开始了。大概十四五岁时，我就渴望进入后台，带着满脑子问题。像做学术研究般疯狂搜集资料，作为乐迷总是揣着厚笔记本——有时甚至两个，写满了问题。

Really, it started before that. It started, like, when I was 14 and 15 when I just wanted to get backstage, and I had all these questions. Like, I did way too much research and stuff. And as a fan, I had, like, a huge notebook generally. One sometimes two full of questions.

放他进来吧。而一旦进入，大卫，我发现大门总会继续敞开。像吉姆·克罗奇、老鹰乐队的格伦·弗雷这些音乐人——我对他们的作品有太多疑问——他们反而如释重负，兴奋于终于遇到真正懂他们音乐的乐迷带着录音机出现。他们会说：开机吧。

So I think, like, people tended to show pity on me sometimes standing outside with this notebook full of questions and a tape recorder. It's like, let's let him in. And once I was in, David, I always found, like, the doors would open. Like, you know, people like Jim Crowchi or Glenn Frey of the Eagles or these people whose music I I I really had questions about were so relieved and happy and excited that there was somebody who was actually a fan and knew their music standing in front of them with a tape recorder. Turn it on.

时又令人激动。我就这样坚持了下来。

Let's talk. It was embarrassing when people would bust me about my age, but exciting when they laughed about it and said, ask me whatever you want. So I just kept going with it.

？

And what was there something that you saw in those earliest days that made you think, like, oh, I I'm seeing something that most people don't get to see?

的紧迫感。

Yeah. The hunger of people that weren't understood in their own adolescent life. They chose music because music chose them, and it was a day to day kind of crusade to, like, keep this life alive where they were understood. Also, there wasn't a feeling that rock was gonna last that long. So there was that thing of, like, well, we're making hay while, you know, the sun shines here.

——如今55年过去，他正在 Sphere 场馆演出。所以每个人其实都在一场不知终点的冒险中前行。

But I saw a documentary on the Eagles recently where Don Henley said, you know, basically, we don't know what we're gonna do when our real life starts. And, you know, he's playing the sphere, and and it's fifty five years later. So everybody, I think, was kind of, like, on an adventure not knowing where it would end.

你真正的人生是何时开始的？

When did your real life start?

我想我真正的人生是从简·温特叫我进去谈话开始的，我本以为是要祝贺我让齐柏林飞艇登上了《滚石》杂志封面。齐柏林飞艇讨厌《滚石》。他们是最后一个你会期望出现在《滚石》上的乐队，因为众所周知双方有过节。简叫我进去和他谈话，实际上，他说，是的，你做得不错，但这算得上是真正的写作吗？

I think my real life started when Jan Winter called me in to have a conversation about what I thought was a congratulations for having gotten Led Zeppelin for the cover of Rolling Stone. Led Zeppelin hated Rolling Stone. Led Zeppelin were the last band that you would ever expect to see in Rolling Stone because because it was a well known feud. And they Jan called me in to talk to him. And in fact, it was, yeah, you did well, but is it a real piece of writing?

那天他刚失去了自己的导师拉尔夫·格里森。他正借着一瓶伏特加消愁，其实没必要见我。他本可以取消会面，但他没有。他和我谈了那件事，然后说，到我家里来见我。后来我在他家见到了他，他给了我一册琼·狄迪恩的《向伯利恒跋涉》，说，读读这里面的文章，再读读她早期写大门乐队的那篇人物特写。

And this was a day where he had lost his own mentor, Ralph Gleason. And he kinda was working his way through a bottle of vodka and didn't need to see me. He could have blown off the meeting, but he didn't. And he talked to me about that, and then he said, meet me at my home. And I met him later at his home, and he gave me a copy of Joan Didion's Slouching Towards Bethlehem and said, read some of this stuff and read read her earlier profile on the doors.

你会明白如何像一个真正的作家那样写作。我当时很受伤，但也受到了挑战。那天从旧金山回来的路上，就是我真正人生的开始。所以那应该是

You'll see how to really write like a real writer. And I was hurt, but also challenged. And on the way back from San Francisco that day was when my real life started. And so that would have

大概是1975年左右？

been, like, 1975 or so?

75年。

'5.

是啊。不过，对一个编辑来说，递给一个作家一本琼·狄迪恩的作品然后说，嗯，拿这个当你的范本吧。祝你好运。这倒是挺容易的。

Yeah. Also, easy for someone to for an editor to hand a writer a copy of Joan Didion's work and say, yeah. Use this as your model. Good luck.

嗯，那本书被翻得很旧了，所以我知道这本书背后有些故事。但这很棒，它确实激励了我。她写大门乐队那篇特写，描写乐队等待吉姆·莫里森出现的情景，简直不可思议。

Well, it was well thumbed, so I knew I knew there was some history in connecting with the book. But it was great, and it did inspire me. And her profile of the doors where the doors are waiting for Jim Morrison to show up is incredible.

是啊。

Yeah.

关于那支乐队你需要知道的一切，你都知道了。你感觉就像亲临现场体验了一样，这就是我一直想做的事，作为一个作家去创造那种感觉。

You know everything you need to know about that band. And you feel like like you had a front row seat to an experience, which is what I always wanted to do, and create that feeling as a writer.

七十年代的那些经历中，有没有哪些特别突出，让你至今念念不忘，但又不知道它们在你整个人生故事中处于什么位置？这问题很有意思。

Are there any experiences from those seventies days that stand out to you as ones that you, you know, have lingered with you, but you don't know how they fit into the larger story of your life? Interesting.

鲍伊对我来说就是如此，因为，你知道，我报道了那段'瘦白公爵'时期，当时他在洛杉矶有些迷失，允许我或者说邀请我为他写一篇人物特稿，记录那段时光。那是一段狂野的瞥见，你知道，是他当时那种不受束缚的才华。但当我后来，大概是2012年，重新采访他时，是的，并问起那个故事

Bowie was like that for me because, you know, I I cover this thin white duke period where he was kind of lost in Los Angeles and allowed me or asked me to do a profile on him that took place over that period of time. And it was a a wild kind of glimpse of, you know, his own kind of untethered brilliance at the time. But when I reinterviewed him in, like, 2012 Yeah. And asked him about that story

我知道你要说什么了。这太迷人了。继续说。是的。

I know where you're going. This is fascinating. Keep going. Yeah.

我知道什么… 而且我想，我想我让他感到有点忧郁和后悔，后悔让我窥见了那个他迷失的时期。所以对我来说，最吸引人的是，那个他现在有点尴尬的时期，却是我成长过程中最重要的时期之一。这一点我后来才明白，因为他基本上是在重新采访时告诉我：嘿，我很高兴你当时玩得开心。但在我们真正熟识的那段日子里，我把自己吓得半死，差点就死了。

I know what what And and I think I think I made him a little melancholy and regretful that I had glimpsed this time when he was untethered. And so what was fascinating to me was that time that he was slightly embarrassed about now was one of my most formative times. So that was something that made sense to me later because he was essentially telling me when I reinterviewed him, hey. I'm glad you had a good time. I scared myself to death and almost died in the time that we knew each other really well.

但你知道吗？我现在住在苏豪区。我过着美好的生活。我爱我的孩子们，我爱我的妻子，而且，你看，

But guess what? I live in SoHo now. I have a beautiful life. I love my children, and I love my wife, and, like, see

你后来。是的。你指的这个例子正是我刚才也在想的。所以就像是，你知道，你在1975年、76年左右，不管具体什么时候，和David Bowie混在一起，那时他正处于——我相信可能是你某篇写他的特稿里提到的——他只吃辣椒喝牛奶之类的，还觉得自己被女巫追捕。

you later. Yeah. It's it's the exact example you're pointing to is one I was thinking about also. So it's like, you know, you're hanging out with David Bowie in 1975, '76, whenever it was, when he was in his I believe it was like maybe it's from one of your profiles of him. He's like only eating peppers and drinking milk or something like that and thought he was being pursued by witches.

于是你写了这篇特稿，可以说，带着一种兴奋感。然后当你后来和Bowie谈起它时，他，你知道，他基本上说，那时他精神上病了。我在想，从一个更宏观的角度看，有没有什么事情是你的年龄和视角当时没能看到，因此阻止了你把它们写进故事里？

And so you wrote this profile that kind of has, like, an effervescence to it, I would say. And then when you spoke to Bowie about it, later, he, you know, he basically says, was mentally ill. And I thought, like, from a larger perspective, are there things that your age and perspective prevented you from seeing and therefore stopped you from putting into the stories?

我想我一直想在故事中呈现我的体验。有些东西会藏在字里行间，但主要是，我希望人们能感受到我的感受。我现在拍电影也还是这样。就像，我想创造那种感觉。就是音乐给你的那种感觉，你被带入一个安全、辉煌的地方，你知道它不会永远持续，但在聆听这首对你意义重大或触动你灵魂的音乐时，你能感受到它。

I think I always wanted to put my experience forward in the stories. Some stuff would be in between the lines, but mostly, I wanted people to feel what I felt. And I'm still like that making movies. It's like, I wanna create that feeling. And it's the feeling that music gives you where you're you're transported into this place that's a safe, glorious kind of place, and you it's not gonna last forever, but you feel it while you're listening to this music that that means so much or has touched your soul.

我也想在新闻工作中创造那种感觉。就像，我希望你感觉就像和Bowie一起坐在车里，而这个人你在媒体上仍然不太真正了解。他很热情，非常… 他能看到，他在音乐和文化等方面有点能预见未来。所以我认为他那种‘迷失的周末’比他愿意记住的要精彩得多。但关键是，我看到了东西。

And I wanted to create that feeling journalistically too. Like, I wanted you to feel like you were in the car riding with Bowie, and this is the guy that you still don't really know that well in media. He was a warm, hugely he could see he kinda saw around corners musically and culturally and stuff. And so his his kind of lost weekend was more, I think, amazing than he wanted to remember. But the point was, I saw stuff.

我瞥见了一些事情，并且倾向于大量地写出来，但同时也要把你，读者，带入一个能感受到我所感的地方。你认为你在做记者工作时学到的东西，后来有没有能够带回到与家人的关系中？哦，再问一遍，再问我一遍那个问题。这真是个很棒的问题。

I saw glimpses of things, and I tended to write about it a lot, but also to put you, the reader, into a place where you felt what I felt. Do you think anything you learned from doing your job as a journalist, you were then able to bring back to the relationships with your family? Oh, ask ask me that ask me that again. That's really a great question.

是的。因为你那时还是个年轻人，你知道，年轻人，十八九岁、二十出头，他们还在摸索与兄弟姐妹、与父母的关系。而你当时处于一种情况，你在某种程度上练习着理解他人的艺术，学习如何与各种各样的人交谈，知道何时倾听，何时插话？

Yeah. Because you were still a young man, you know, and and young people, their late teens, early twenties, they're still kind of figuring out their relationships with their siblings, with their parents. And you were in a situation where you're sort of practicing the art of understanding someone, of learning how to talk to all different kinds of people, of knowing when to listen, when to interject?

这是个很好的问题。它教会你倾听，教会你拥有同理心，教会你看到处于困境中的人们，以及如何察言观色。确实如此。

It's a great question. It teaches you to listen. It teaches you to have empathy. It teaches you to see people in very tough situations and, you know, how to read a room. It's true.

我带回了很多对我父母和姐姐的同理心，因为我看到了每个人每天所经历的挣扎。你知道吗？有些人认为因为我年轻时就在《滚石》杂志等地方发表文章并早早取得成功，好像我是个天真汉，生活一帆风顺，只是轻松穿过每一扇敞开的门，过着灰姑娘式的童话故事。但其实很艰难。你知道吗？

And I brought back a lot of empathy for my parents and for my sister because I could see the daily battles that everybody suffered. You know? Some people think because I got published as a young guy and, you know, had success early on that was kind of obvious in Rolling Stone and stuff that, like, I was a Candide, you know, that life was just easy, and I was just, like, cruising through every open door and, like, you know, he he's he's living a Cinderella story. But it was tough. You know?

在某种程度上，每件事都是一场谈判，为了让自己获得机会，让自己处于能够进行采访的位置。另一件事是，故事背后总有故事。

Every everything is a negotiation in a way to get yourself access, to get yourself in the position where you can do the interviews. And the other thing is there's always a story behind the story.

你家庭故事背后的故事是什么？

What was the story behind the story with your family?

我想因为我是最小的，也是最后一个。尤其对我妈妈来说，我是他们可以把一切都做对的那个孩子。所以他们带着从前两个孩子身上学到的经验来对待我。所以他们不情愿地让我走进世界，去战斗、去赢、去输等等。但正是我从一些战斗中受伤归来，才促成了我们最重要的一些时光，那时只有我和父母坐在一起，谈论人生的起伏，谈论如何必须为保持乐观而奋斗，以及成为那种乐观的战士是一种多么好的生活方式。

I I think because I was the youngest and I was the last. I was for my mom in particular, it was I was the one that they could get everything right with. And so they came to it with with a certain playbook that they learned from two children before me. So they reluctantly let me go out into the world and fight these battles and win and lose and stuff. But it was it was kind of me coming back wounded from some of those battles that provided some of our most important times where it was just me and my parents sitting around talking about the ups and downs of life and how you have to fight to be optimistic, and how being a warrior for that kind of optimism is a good life to live.

我想那是我和他们作为一个家庭共同学到的。

And I think that that I I learned with them as a family.

你知道，有句话叫‘你到哪里，自己就在哪里’。你知道吗？我就是这么想的。你的新闻工作不可避免地会反映出你是谁。所以请允许我稍微书呆子一下，谈谈伟大的——

You know, there's that phrase everywhere you go, there you are. You know? That's what I'm thinking about. There's it's impossible to avoid your journalism being a reflection of who you are. So I'm gonna nerd out just for a second on Great.

莱斯特·班斯，一位传奇的摇滚评论家，我想他在八十年代初就去世了，当时还很年轻，才三十多岁。是的。他算是你的导师，在《几乎成名》里由菲利普·塞默·霍夫曼扮演。在电影中，莱斯特·班斯这个角色有点像新闻业和摇滚乐的道德良心，有点像欧比旺·克诺比——

Lester Bangs, who is sort of a legendary rock critic who died, I think, in the early eighties in in he was still a young man, just in his thirties, I think. Yeah. Man was sort of a mentor to you, and he was played by Philip Seymour Hoffman in Almost Famous. And in Almost Famous, the Lester Bangs character functions as kind of like the moral conscience of journalism and and of rock and roll. And he's kind of like the Obi Wan Kenobi Yeah.

是的。对于以你为原型的威廉这个角色来说。在电影里，书里也有，莱斯特告诫你不要被你所写的人迷惑。你知道吗？不要交出一篇只是让他们看起来像酷炫天才的故事。

Yeah. Figure for the character of William who's was based on you. And in the film, and it's also in the book too, Lester sort of cautions you against being seduced by the people that you write about. You know? Don't turn in some story that just makes them look like a cool genius.

但我的问题是，你大多数时候最终做的，是不是正是莱斯特告诫你不要做的事？

My question though is, is that what you ended up doing most of the time? The the thing that Lester asked you not to do?

嗯，这确实是件有趣的事。因为我最后一次见到莱斯特时，他——就是那个说不要和摇滚明星混在一起、不要和摇滚明星交朋友的人——却和Tubes乐队的比尔·斯普纳是朋友。我最后一次见莱斯特时，我们正和那个乐队的比尔·斯普纳在一起。莱斯特和比尔关系非常好。我想他当时的意思是，这确实是个合理的问题，就是说不要出卖自己。

Well, this is this is an interesting thing. Because the last time I saw Lester, he, the guy who said don't hang out with the rock stars, don't make friends with the rock stars, Was was friends with Bill Spooner from the Tubes. And the last time I saw Lester, we were hanging out with Bill Spooner from that band. And Lester had a wonderful relationship with Bill. And I think what he was saying, and it's a fair question for sure, is like, don't sell yourself out.

就像，你可能会被诱惑。你可能会做所有那些事。是的，你可以成为所谓的

Like, you're gonna be seduced. You're gonna do all that. Like, yeah, you can be a so called friend. This may not last forever, but you can be on a very kind of like, you know, almost a confessional basis with somebody. And you're

不是

not

朋友，而是一个富有同情心的倾听者。我一直觉得这是个很好的位置，尤其当我喜欢我正在写的乐队或艺术家时，因为那就像在天堂一样。但我想莱斯特也在说的是，不要试图加入乐队。不要试图成为那个人。你要从远处观察那个人，然后就像我一直想做的，我想带着人们一起体验。

a friend, but you're a sympathetic listener. And I always felt like that was a great place to be, particularly if I loved the band or the artist I was writing about because I was in heaven. But I think what Lester was also talking about is like, don't try and join the band. Don't try and be that person. You know, study that person from a distance, and then like I always wanted to do, I wanted to bring people along with me.

我从没想过我能弹吉他或做任何那样的事，但我可以在吉米·佩奇身边待一段时间，也许能传达一些作为齐柏林飞艇乐队的粉丝你会像听开司米一样聆听的东西，你会读过这个故事，然后你会更喜欢开司米，因为你明白了它的来龙去脉。嗯，算是

I never thought I could play guitar or any of that, but I could spend some time around Jimmy Page and maybe get something across that you as a Led Zeppelin fan would be listening to like cashmere, and you will have read this story, and you like cashmere more because you get where it all came from. Well, sort

以一种迂回的方式，我问题第一部分想要探讨的是，你知道，你做出的个人决定反映了你的为人——一个乐观主义者、理想主义者和粉丝。我想如果是一个像莱斯特那样脾气暴躁的人处在同样的情况下，他可能会带回非常不同的故事。

of the in a convoluted way, part of what I was trying to get at with the first part of my question is that, know, it is the personal decisions you made were a reflection of the person you are, who is an optimistic person, an idealist, and a fan. And I think if a dyspeptic personality like Lester perhaps were in those same situations, he probably would have come back with very different stories.

他确实如此。他会和卢·里德发生冲突。他会，比如，直接面对这些人。有时候这是作为记者你做出的另一个选择。就像，故事是关于你的，还是关于你在那里学到的东西？

And he did. And he would mix it up with Lou Reed. He would, like, come at these people. And sometimes this is another thing that's like a choice you make as a journalist. Like, is the story about you, or is it a story about what you learned when you were there?

你会说你和琼尼·米切尔是朋友吗？我

Would you say you're friends with Joni Mitchell? I

很自豪地说，我和琼尼·米切尔是以最好的方式成为朋友的。她是我在《滚石》杂志做过的最好的采访。79年她发行《明格斯》专辑时我们做的采访，是我在那里做过的最好的采访。她说话就像经过了三稿修改，所以和她交谈真的很有趣。

am friends with Joni Mitchell proudly in the best way. She was my best interview at Rolling Stone. The 79 interview that we did when she was putting out the Mingus album was by far the best interview I did there. And she speaks in third draft, and so it's really fun to talk with her.

那你正在制作的关于她的传记电影进展如何了？

And where do things stand with the biopic you're making about her?

我们明年会完成它。关于这个我目前能说的不多。很快我就能更明确地谈谈谁会参与、我们将如何制作等等细节，但这个想法源自一个非常有趣的地方。当时我正在创作另一个剧本和项目，我特别喜欢写关于琼尼的内容。那时她刚从动脉瘤中恢复，重新开始接触世界，正在发行她早期作品的档案集——她以前总说永远不会发布那些素材。

We're gonna make it next year. There's not a lot I can say about it. Soon, I'll be able to speak more kind of definitively about who's in it and how we're gonna do it and everything, but it came from a very interesting place. I was working on another script and another project, and I loved writing about Joni. And so she was coming, you know, back into the world a little bit after her aneurysm, but she was putting out an archival set of her earliest stuff, which she always said, like, I'm never gonna put that stuff out.

那些作品确实显得稚嫩。但后来我觉得她和历史都在说：回去好好看看那些东西吧。所以她决定发行档案集。而我当时就说：好啊。

It's it's naive. But then I think she and history kind of said, go back and check that stuff out. So she was putting out the archive. And I I said, yeah. Sure.

我当然愿意写专辑说明，但更想采访琼尼本人。我们开始交谈后，她关于童年和成长的记忆如此鲜活，我甚至梦到了一个讲述她故事的结构框架。于是我打电话到她家，告诉她的得力助手玛西·根西克：我梦到了一个从未讨论过的、关于她生平电影的结构构想。

I'll write liner notes for sure, but I also wanna interview Joni. And we started talking. And her memories of childhood and growing up and everything were so vivid. I actually had a dream of a structure of how to tell that story. So I called over to her place and told Marci Gensick, who's her kind of right hand person, that I had this dream about what a structure would be for a movie about her life that we've never talked about it.

并表示如果有人来洽谈改编权，请先联系我，我会分享这个创意看看后续发展。结果她说：现在就有很多人来敲门，琼尼还奇怪你为什么这么久才来提出这个想法。所以没错，过来聊聊你的构思吧。这大约是四年半前的事，她当时回应说：太棒了。

And, but if somebody comes knocking, come to me first, and I'll tell you this idea, and we'll see what happens. She's like, they're knocking. They're knocking all the time, and Joni wonders why you've taken so long to call and ask this question. So, yes, come over and tell us what your idea is. And this was about four and a half years ago, and she said, wonderful.

让我们每周一晚都聚一聚。你过来，我们畅谈。你可以任意提问，我全力配合这个企划。

Let's spend every Monday night. Let's talk. You come over here. We'll talk. You ask me anything you want, and I'm I'm I'm here to serve this idea.

这就是这些年来我一直在做的事。这段经历极其鼓舞人心，是我对任何艺术家进行过最深入、最密集的访谈对话，感觉充满活力，迫不及待想拍成电影。

And so that's what I've been doing all this time. It's been an incredibly inspiring time. The most I've interviewed anybody, the deepest tissue kind of conversations I've I've had with any any artist. I've just found it, like, incredibly invigorating and can't wait to make the movie.

是梅丽尔·斯特里普和安雅·泰勒-乔伊分别饰演不同时期的她吗？无法确认这一点，真希望可以。对你来说，最想传达关于琼尼·米切尔的哪些尚未被充分展现的特质？她的故事中还有哪些不为人知的部分？

Are Meryl Streep and Anya Taylor Joy playing her at different parts of her life? Can't can't confirm that. I wish I could. And what is most important to you to convey about Joni Mitchell that maybe hasn't been conveyed already? Like, what what part of her story still don't people really know about?

从她视角呈现的人生轨迹。是的，还有她生命中遇到的形形色色的人。虽然大家都对'传记片'这个术语有些过敏，但我始终认为，无论是否关于音乐人，传记故事应该让观众逐渐对这个人产生兴趣。就像琼尼的电影应该带有琼尼专辑的气质。

Her life from her point of view. Yeah. And the many people along her path. Everybody's kind of phobic about the the term biopic, but a biographical story about somebody I always felt, musician or not, should give you the feeling that you came to being interested in this person over. Like, Joni Mitchell movie should feel like a Joni Mitchell album.

要善待一直陪伴的忠实粉丝，这无疑是讲述音乐人传记故事的最佳途径。这就是我追求的感受，现在它终于融入了一部电影中。是的，这就是琼尼·米切尔之梦。

Be good to the people that have been there as a fan all along, and that's the best road to telling a biographical story about a musician for sure. Like, that's the sensibility I crave, and it's in a movie now. Yes. And that's the Joni Mitchell dream.

我还有几个关于你在好莱坞职业生涯的问题。但在那之前，我觉得提供些实用信息对大家很有帮助——请告诉我格伦·弗雷的独门微醺配方。

And I have a handful of questions about your Hollywood career. But before we get to those, just because I think it's useful practical information for people, give me Glenn Fry's recipe for a good buzz.

走进房间，立刻喝两瓶啤酒，先来点微醺的感觉，保持这个状态，然后再来一瓶，最好是长颈瓶的百威啤酒，每四十五分钟喝一瓶，你会发现你玩得很开心，还认识了很多很棒的人。你试过吗？哦，试过。管用吗？确实管用。

It's come into the room, drink two beers immediately, get a good buzz going, and ride that buzz, and have one more beer, preferably long neck bud, and do one every forty five minutes, you will find that you had a great time and met a lot of wonderful people. Have you tried that? Oh, yes. It works? It does work.

对。所以你不必是老鹰乐队的成员

Right. So you don't have to be a member

也能奏效。不，不必。其实关键我觉得就是长颈瓶的百威啤酒。没错。

of the Eagles for that for that to work. No. No. It's really it's really just the I think the key thing is the long neck Budweiser. Yeah.

是的。但他——这是写起来特别有趣的一点，因为格伦不仅研究如何在摇滚乐队中成功，还研究如何为人处世。而且，就像，作为一个青少年，他的绰号是‘少年之王’。所以他完全把我看作一个笨拙的人，然后会说，好吧，你的脸长得不错。

Yeah. But he this is this is one of the great things that was so fun to write about was because Glenn was like a student of not only how to succeed in a rock band, but also how to carry yourself. And and, like, as a as a teenager, and his nickname was teen king. So he totally saw me as this awkward person and be like, okay. You're getting a good face.

有点长了。也许有点太长了，但还不错，挺好的。我不会留胡子。你要做的就是知道自己有料。

It's kinda getting long. Maybe a little too long, but it's good. It's good. I wouldn't do a mustache. What you gotta do is just kind of know that you got a quality.

还有你之前提到的那个女孩，你知道，喜欢更帅的家伙之类的，嘿，如果她嗅不到你的资质，你就得继续前进。

And this girl you were talking about earlier that, you know, likes a better looking guy and whatever, hey. If she can't smell your qualifications, you gotta move on.

理解一个人的品质让我觉得和导演必须理解人的方面没什么不同。是的。有没有哪些演员让你意识到他们身上某些连他们自己都不知道的特质？

Understanding someone's qualities strikes me as not dissimilar from what a director has to understand about people. Yeah. Are there actors who come to mind who you understood something about who they were that maybe they didn't even know was in there?

我想到的是《甜心先生》。是的。我一直很喜欢汤姆·克鲁斯为人很有趣这一点。他确实如此。《情到深处》刚上映后他就打电话给我说，嘿。

The thing that comes to mind is Jerry Maguire. Yeah. I always loved how playful Tom Cruise is as a person. He is. He called me right after Say Anything came out and said, hey.

这真是部好电影。你拍了一部很棒的电影。恭喜。你得再多拍点这样的片子。这真的很棒。

This is a really good movie. You made a great movie. Congrats. You gotta do more of these things. This is really good.

我希望有一天能和你合作。保重。所以我知道他是个有种冒险精神和有趣灵魂的人。总之，我忘了，那是在拍摄过程的早期，我有一整个，你知道，片场都是人。

I'd love to work with you someday. Take care. So I I knew he was a guy that had kind of a adventurous fun spirit. Anyway, so I forget. Was early in the process of filming, and I had a whole, like, you know, set full of people.

那是SMI，他的体育经纪公司。这一幕是他正要离开，带着金鱼之类的东西。他喊着‘谁跟我一起走？’然后大步穿过办公室，我当时就在想，要是他摔倒了怎么办？

It was SMI, his sports agency. And this is the scene where, you know, he he's leaving. He's got, like, a goldfish and everything. And who's coming with me? And, you know, marching through the office, and I just had this feeling, what if you fall down?

要是他脸朝下摔倒了怎么办？

What if you fall down on your face?

来个滑稽摔倒。

Do a pratfall.

然后做个滑稽摔倒。所有人都在场，我们片场挤满了人，他们都在看着汤姆·克鲁斯。他会怎么做？他怎么表演？他打算干什么？

And do a pratfall, And they're all there. We had a we had a set full of people, and they're watching Tom Cruise. How does he do it? How does he act? How's he what's he gonna do?

所以我就想，好吧，我们来拍一条你摔倒的，看看效果如何。那时候你站在那儿，心里想着：好吧，我正在让汤姆·克鲁斯脸着地摔倒。

And so I thought, like, okay. Let's do one where you do the pratfall, and let's see what happens. And at that point, you're standing there. You're going like, okay. I'm telling Tom Cruise to fall on his face.

我猜他可能会照做。结果汤姆·克鲁斯说：‘好，我们拍吧。别告诉别人。’他真摔了，那一刻现场空气仿佛被彻底抽空般寂静。

My bet is that he might do it. And Tom Cruise goes, yes. Let's do it. Don't tell anybody. And he did it, and it was the oxygen left the room in such a profound way.

然后他站起来，大家才意识到这是剧情设计，现场爆发出掌声。这个例子说明，当你发现某个闪光点时，可以邀请演员将其呈现在镜头前——十次有九次他们都会配合。

And then he got up and everybody realized that it was part of the scene, and it got applause. So that was an example of, like, kind of seeing a nugget and asking them to bring it on camera. I would say 90% of the time you ask for that, you'll get it.

汤姆·克鲁斯演过《甜心先生》，当然还有《香草天空》。为了和你对话我特意重看了这些电影。虽然这么说可能显得我很蠢——毕竟汤姆·克鲁斯从不缺少公众崇拜——但我认为

Tom Cruise was in Jerry Maguire, and then, of course, he was in Vanilla Sky also. And, you know, I I rewatched those movies in advance of talking to you. Thanks. I think it's I'm gonna sound like a doofus, but because it's not like Tom Cruise is lacking in public adoration. But I think

你拼doofus这个词的时候，是用两个o还是d-u-f-u-s？

Now when you spell doofus, do you spell doofus with two o's or d u f u s?

我从没想过用d-u-f-u-s的拼法。你是这样拼的吗？

I've never even considered spelling it with d u f u s. Is that how you spell it?

好的。不。我是零零。只是确认一下。只是确认一下。

Good. No. I'm double o. Just checking. Just checking.

我重新看了那些电影，我很好奇你对汤姆·克鲁斯过去十年左右职业生涯的看法，因为他真的专注于这些场面宏大的电影，比如《碟中谍》系列，或者他拍了那部《木乃伊》电影，这些与他当年和你合作时那种角色驱动型的表演风格截然不同。你觉得他作为故事讲述者的兴趣是否已经偏离了当年与你合作时感兴趣的工作类型？你怎么看待他的发展轨迹？

I I rewatched those films, and I and I was sort of curious for your sort of perspective on Tom Cruise's career over the last ten years or so because he's really focused on these spectacular films, the Mission Impossible movies or, you know, he did the mommy movie, which are very different from the kinds of character driven performances that he gave Yeah. For you. Do you think he just his interest as a storyteller have diverged from the kind of work that he was interested in when he was making films with you? Like, how do you see where he's gone?

我看到一个时代即将到来，可能已经开始了，他将转型投入角色型表演，就像他当年转型拍动作片并在最高质量的环境中学习拍动作片一样强烈。我认为那个保罗·纽曼式的角色阶段即将到来，会以一种方式震撼人们的认知。我觉得汤姆做的是，无论投身什么领域，都会成为绝对的学生。所以，他当然会有最棒的特技，当然会付出努力去学会做这做那。

I I see that there's a time coming, and it might have already started, where he's gonna seg into character roles as strongly as he segued into doing action movies and learning to do action movies in the highest of quality circumstances. And that that Paul Newman character phase that's just around the corner, I think, will fry people's minds in a way. I think what Tom does is becomes an absolute student in whatever he's attaching himself to. And so, like, of course, he's gonna have the best stunts. Of course, he's gonna done the work to know how to do this and that.

但当那个保罗·纽曼式的阶段再次开始时，他会投入同样的激情。那将会非常惊人。告诉你一件小事。我和克林特·伊斯特伍德有同一位律师，布鲁斯·雷默是他的名字，他邀请我参加一个晚宴，让我坐在克林特·伊斯特伍德旁边。我当时非常紧张。

But when that Paul Newman phase starts again, he's gonna apply the same kind of passion to it. It's gonna be amazing. I'll tell you one little thing. I have the same lawyer as Clint Eastwood, And, Bruce Raymer is his name, and he invited me to a dinner party and sat me next to Clint Eastwood. And I was so nervous.

你对克林特·伊斯特伍德说什么？我就坐在那里，然后克林特·伊斯特伍德靠过来说，汤姆·克鲁斯。我说，哦，老兄。汤姆·克鲁斯。我喜欢和汤姆·克鲁斯合作。

What do you say to Clint Eastwood? So I'm sitting there, and and Clint Eastwood leans over and says, Tom Cruise. And I go, oh, man. Tom Cruise. I love working with Tom Cruise.

然后他说，一百年后，人们回望。那就是职业生涯。汤姆·克鲁斯的职业生涯。是的。那是值得关注的职业生涯。

And he goes, in a hundred years, they're gonna look back. That's the career. Tom Cruise's career. Yeah. That's the career to watch.

当一切尘埃落定，变成对历史上某个时期所发生事件的简单陈述时，你会读到汤姆·克鲁斯的名字。

When everything melts away and it becomes, you know, simple statements of what happened at a certain time in history, you're gonna read Tom Cruise's name.

正好，关于在演员身上看到可能未被其他导演利用的特质这个话题。我在想《情到深处》里的约翰·库萨克。约翰·马奥尼说过一句很棒的话，他在《情到深处》里扮演父亲，当然，多年以来也在《欢乐一家亲》里扮演弗雷泽的父亲。

And just, on the subject of seeing things in actors that maybe hadn't been utilized by other directors. I'm thinking of John Cusack in Say Anything. There's a great quote from John Mahoney, who played the dad in Say Anything, and, of course, played Frazier's dad for years on on Frazier.

但他确实演了。

But He did.

约翰·马奥尼在某次采访中谈到约翰·库萨克时说了一句关于他的话，我转述一下：《情到深处》是约翰·库萨克发现他‘库萨克特质’的地方。我觉得这说得非常对。

John Mahoney has a a line about John Cusack that he said in an interview somewhere that say anything is where I'm paraphrasing. But say anything is where John Cusack discovered his Cusackness. And I think that's exactly right.

我觉得当我见到他时，他想收敛自己的‘库萨克式’风格。他说，我不能再拍青少年电影了。我说，哦，这真的不是青少年电影。我发誓。我的意思是，我认为库萨克在那部电影中在很多方面成长了。

I think he wanted to dial down his Cusackness when I met him. He was like, I can't do another teen movie. I'm like, oh, it's really not a teen movie. I swear. I mean, I think Cusack grew up on that movie in a lot of ways.

他拍过《八人出局》之类与约翰·塞尔斯合作的电影，但他在《情到深处》中那种饱受折磨的智慧让我非常喜爱。我第一次见到他时，他在芝加哥一家咖啡店里背对着我，甚至还没转身，我就知道他是劳埃德。然后他转过身，我们开始交谈。他说，我永远不会接这个角色，因为我不想再以那种方式成为那个约翰·库萨克。所以《情到深处》的拍摄过程，可以说我们整部电影直到声音制作阶段，都在与那种对他早期和当下形象的认知作斗争。

He he done, eight men out and stuff with John Sales, but there was a a kind of a tortured wisdom about him in Say Anything that I I loved so much. The first time I saw him, he was facing away from me in a in a coffee shop in Chicago, and he he hadn't even turned around, and I knew he was Lloyd. Then he turned around, and we started talking. And then he said, I'm never gonna do this part because I don't wanna be that John Cusack guy again in that way. So the the making of Say Anything, I would say we were we were fighting with that perception of of, like, earlier period and current Cusack throughout the entire making of the movie into the session where we worked on sound.

最后，电影拍摄完成后，他看了一个场景后说，哦，好吧。好吧。好吧。行吧。我想我确实明白你想要表达什么了。

At the end, after the film had been shot, he he watched one of the scenes and said, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. I I guess I do get what you were going for.

你知道电影里有个标志性场景，约翰·库萨克的角色举起音响，彼得·加布里埃尔的《In Your Eyes》为艾欧恩·斯凯的角色播放。据说约翰·库萨克当时不想举着音响，这是真的吗？

You know, there's the iconic scene in in the film where he John Cusack's character holds up the boombox and Peter Gabriel's In Your Eyes plays to Ione Skye's character. Is it right that John Cusack did not wanna have to hold the boombox up?

哦，宝贝。太对了。他真心觉得那是个卑躬屈膝的行为。为什么劳埃德非得像个软蛋那样？比如，凭什么？

Oh, baby. So right. He really felt that it was a subservient act. And why does Lloyd have to be a wuss like that? Like, what?

不。这对你来说是个史诗级的软蛋阶段。但真的，我觉得我们为拍好那个场景挣扎了很久。直到最后一天的最后时刻，我们才拍出了电影里的那个版本，是摄影师拉兹洛·科瓦奇——一位非常传奇的摄影师——知道我们一直在较劲。我们其实拍过库萨克把音响放在车顶，他像这样站着说，嗯，那样更像我可能会做的事。

No. This is your this is an epic wuss phase for you. But but, really, I think we struggled with how to get that scene. And it was the last scene on the last day where we got the scene that's in the movie, and it was the cinematographer, Laszlo Kovacs, like, really legendary cinematographer who knew that we'd been battling. We had actually shot the scene where Cusack had the boombox on the hood of a car, and he was standing like this saying, like, well, that's more that's more what I would do.

你知道吗？拍了一会儿之后，我开始担心高管们会看到这个，然后我就有麻烦了。拉兹洛知道我的担忧，凑过来在我耳边低声说，别担心，摄像机里没装胶片。所以他明白我们一直在追求举起音响的那个伟大时刻。

You know? And and I think after we had shot that for a while, I started worrying that the executives were gonna see this and, yeah, I would get in trouble. And Laszlo knew that and leaned over and whispered in my ear, don't worry. There's no film in the camera. So he knew we were chasing the grand moment of holding up the boombox.

所以在最后一天，眼看太阳就要下山了，他说，我在街对面找到了一个不错的地方，车就停在那儿。我们带他过去看看能不能拍成。于是我们跑过街。库萨克说，好吧，我来做。

So on the last day as we were losing the sun, he said, I I found a place across the street that would be good, and the car is parked there. Let's get him across the street and see if we can get it. And so we ran across the street. Cusack said, okay. I'll do it.

然后，他举着音响，明显有点恼火还得再拍一次。你在监视器里看的时候就能感觉到。那正是这场戏需要的完美情绪。

And, so he's holding off the boombox, literally kinda pissed that he's having to do it one more time. And you you knew it watching it in the in the monitor. That was the perfect emotion for the scene.

电影明星在哪些方面像摇滚明星，又在哪些方面与摇滚明星不同？我

In what way are movie stars like rock stars, and in what way are movie stars different than rock stars? I have

一个理论

a theory

关于这个，但你说说看

about this, but you tell me

真相。他们想成为彼此。他们渴望成为对方。一个人拥有另一个人觉得在合适环境下唾手可得的全部辉煌，但他们欣赏对方的艺术性和所作所为。区别在于，演员有时必须放弃他们所做之事被感知到的权力，对吧。

the truth. Wanna be each other. They wanna be each other. One has all the magnificence that the other one feels is is just around the corner in the right circumstance, but they appreciate the artfulness and what the other one does. The difference is the difference is probably that actors sometimes have to give up what what's perceived as the power of what they're doing Right.

交给另一个人，即导演。所以就像他们并非完全在创作这个东西。而音乐人通常是在完全创作，或者可能为一个苛刻的制作人工作之类的。但一方在对方的工作中感知到多一点自由。

To another person, the director. So it's like they're not actually making the thing totally. Whereas a musician generally is making the thing totally or possibly working for a tough producer or something. But one perceives a little more liberty in the other's job.

我认为从粉丝的角度来看，对我而言的一个区别是，我真正热爱的音乐人，我个人非常认同。而我喜爱的演员，更多是一种钦佩或有点偶像化的感觉。那里有更多的距离感。而对于，你知道，鲍勃·迪伦和布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀，无论谁，比如，我觉得他们几乎是我的一部分，这种感觉与我对我最喜爱的演员的感觉不同。

I think from the fan's perspective, a difference for me is that the musicians that I really love, I really identify with personally. And I think the actors and actresses I love, it's more a feeling of sort of admiration or or idolization a little bit. There's more of a distance there. Whereas with, you know, Bob Daler and Bruce Springsteen, whomever, like, I I feel like they're a part of me almost in a way in a way that feels different to me than I feel about my favorite actors.

非常正确。而且他们从内心创作了更多能与你个人产生共鸣的东西，作为音乐人也是如此。是的，这真的很对。但我喜欢做的是，我喜欢在电影中创造一个角色，让你个人感到亲切，就像你刚才描述音乐人能为你做到的那样。

Super true. And they've authored more stuff from the heart that could speak to you personally as well as a musician. Yeah. It's really true. But I like doing I like creating a character in a movie that feels as inviting to you personally as the way you just described what a musician can do for you.

就像如果你能从电影中的一个角色获得那种感觉，你就得到了一切。我认为这就是我如此热爱在电影中使用音乐的原因之一。因为当那种结合发生时，就像是全部。

It's like if you can get that feeling from a character in a movie, you got it all. And I think that's one of the reasons why I love using music in movies so much. And because that marriage, when that happens, is just like it's everything.

有没有合作过的演员说过你是一个潜在的记者，警铃大作，

Who's an actor that you've worked with that said you're a a latent journalist, bells ringing,

谁想过，天哪，那会

who thought, gosh, that would

是个值得写写的好人选？那里有些东西，我想了解更多。

be a good person to write about? There's something going on there that I'd like to get to know more about.

哦，哇。好问题。嗯，佩内洛普·克鲁兹啊。算一个。

Oh, wow. Great question. Well, Penelope Cruz Ah. Was one.

跟我说说这个。

Tell me about that.

很迷人。在《香草天空》里。是的。人物。她在《香草天空》里。

Fascinating. In Vanilla Sky. Yep. Person. She's in Vanilla Sky.

迷人的人物。解读现场气氛的能力无人能及。我我我从未见过有人能以如此深刻的方式解读现场。我觉得她真的非常迷人。我真希望我写过关于菲利普·塞默·霍夫曼的文章。

Fascinating person. Reads a room like nobody you've ever seen. I I I don't know that I've ever seen anyone that read the room in such a deep tissue way. I thought she was really fascinating. I wish I'd written about Philip Seymour Hoffman.

他是另一个让我觉得很神秘的人，大卫。他他他不想进来排练，但他对此非常和善。我我对他说，扮演莱斯特·邦斯对我来说真的很重要。比如，我真的需要你来洛杉矶，至少待几天，一起研究这些东西。他说，嗯，你会发现你不需要几天。

He was another guy who was very mysterious to me, David. He was he was he didn't wanna come in and rehearse, but he was really sweet about it. And I I said to him, this is really important to me playing Lester Bangs. Like, I really need you to come to LA, at least for a couple of days, and work on this stuff. He's like, well, you'll find you won't need a couple days.

我说，嗯，我需要。于是他上了飞机，过来了。他走进来，坐下，演完了所有场景，两小时后就在飞机上了。他精通他的技艺。他了解他的工具。

I said, well, I need it. And so he got on a plane, he came out. He walked in, sat down, did all the scenes, was on a plane two hours later. He knew his craft. He knew his instrument.

他懂。而且他那时就吃透了莱斯特。这就是与一个不一定完全和你同频的演员合作的美妙之处，因为他也对我的导演方法以及使用音乐之类的东西感到好奇。所以，是的，写关于那个家伙的事，我很遗憾没有机会和他共度一些时光。我仍然没看到那篇真正揭开菲尔·霍夫曼面纱的深度报道。

He knew. And he had Lester down then. This is what's great about having a collaboration with an actor that doesn't have to be totally on your wavelength because he also was curious about my method of directing and using music and stuff. So, yeah, writing about that guy, I'm bummed that I didn't get a chance to spend some time with him. I still haven't seen the profile where they really pulled the curtain back on Phil Hoffman.

我我或许应该更努力地找找。

I I probably should look harder.

休息之后，我向卡梅隆询问了更多关于他在好莱坞的生活，以及他对那些说他近期电影不太成功的言论作何回应。

After the break, I asked Cameron more about his life in Hollywood and for his response to people who say his more recent movies haven't quite hit the mark.

是的。收到差评，让人们质疑你的一些作品，这是这场盛大旅程的一部分。如果你幸运的话，你就能继续留在这趟旅程上。

Yeah. Getting bad reviews, having people question some of your stuff, It is is part of the big ride. And if you're lucky, you get to stay on the ride.

我叫戴安娜·邓恩。我希望能够与我的孙女们共享我的《纽约时报》账户。我们住在一个非常偏远的地区。我想共享我的账户，只是为了增加她们对整个世界的了解。非常感谢。

My name is Diana Dunn. I would like to be able to share my New York Times account with my granddaughters. We live in a very rural area. I would like to share my account just to increase their knowledge of our whole world. Thank you so much.

戴安娜，我们听到你了。

Diana, we heard you.

现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅服务。一个订阅最多可供您生活中的四个人独立登录。了解更多请访问nytimes.com/family。大多数人不会理解这个引用，但这没关系，因为你会理解的。我现在想进入采访的莱斯特·邦斯卢·里德部分。

Introducing the New York Times Family Subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family. Most people are not gonna understand this reference, but it doesn't matter because you're gonna understand it. I'd like to now enter the Lester Bang's Lou Reed portion of the interview.

好的。让我们沿着那条走廊走，然后拐进那个房间。

Okay. Let's let's go down that hallway and turn into that room.

所以你向好莱坞的转型真正开始于，你知道，《开放的美国学府》的电影剧本，那部电影可以说是无可争议的青少年经典。你编剧和导演的第一部电影是《情到深处》。嗯。另一部，我认为，也是无可争议的青少年经典。也许甚至不需要在前面加上‘青少年’这个词。

So your transition to Hollywood really started with the, you know, the screenplay to Fast Times at Ridgemont High, that movie sort of inarguable teen classic. The first movie you wrote and directed in Say Anything. Mhmm. Another, I think, inarguable teen classic. Maybe doesn't even need the term teen put in front of it.

谢谢。然后真的就有点像

Thanks. And then then really just kind of like a

你听起来就像我试图跟库萨克解释为什么他应该接拍那部电影一样。忘掉青少年那部分。忘掉青少年。

You sound like me trying to talk to Cusack about why you should do the movie. Just forget the teen part. Forget the teen.

忘掉它。然后那真的就是一段相当… 是的。惊人的历程。所以是《单身贵族》、《甜心先生》、《几近成名》、《香草天空》，我认为是2001年2月上映的，有些人可能会对此吹毛求疵。

Forget it. Then it's really just a a pretty Yeah. Amazing run. So it's singles, Jerry Maguire, almost famous, Vanilla Sky, which is, I think, 02/2001, which some people might quibble with.

是的。是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

但是，你知道，赚了钱。对吧？这无疑是一部大胆的电影吗？

But, you know, made money. You know? Is it certainly a bold film?

我觉得它很经得起时间考验。请继续。

Wears well over time, I feel. Go ahead.

自《香草天空》之后，有《伊丽莎白镇》、《我家买了动物园》、《阿罗哈》，还有电视剧《Roadies》——这些作品当然有它们的粉丝，但我觉得没人会真的认为它们达到了之前作品的水平。嗯。那里发生了某种变化。你如何理解这种转变？

Since Vanilla Sky, it's been Elizabethtown, We Bought A Zoo, Aloha, the TV series Rhodys, which, I'm sure they have their fans, but I don't think anyone would really argue that they're on the level of the work that came before. Mhmm. Something changed there. How do you understand that shift?

我认为部分原因是我花时间抚养两个儿子，真正投入时间在他们身上——我的儿子柯蒂斯和威廉——在很多方面都是在为未来打基础。我其实很感谢这个问题，因为我也思考过。我认为作为作家，你会经历一些浪潮，有时你会感到与某些真正需要书写、并有能力妥善处理的主题相连，而有时，正如比利·怀尔德所说，你想追求道奇队左外野手那样的击球率——你知道，如果能接近五成赛季，你可能就成为传奇了。

I think some of that was taking time to raise two boys and really investing time in that, my sons Curtis and William, and and just like building for the future in a lot of ways. And I actually appreciate the question because I've thought about it too. And I think there are waves you go through as a writer where you feel connected to things that you really need to write about and have the skills to do it properly. And then there there are times where, as Billy Wilder says, you know, you wanna chase the batting average of the left fielder and the Dodgers. You know, where, like, if you get close to a 500 season, you might be a legend.

我认为你提到的所有电影，包括《Roadies》剧集，其中都有一些我极为自豪的片段，它们是我成长步伐的一部分，而且我认为这种成长仍在继续。《我家买了动物园》。我对《我家买了动物园》真的很满意。随着时间的推移，它比我做的许多其他作品更让我有共鸣。我妈妈认为《我家买了动物园》是我最好的作品之一。

I think all the movies that you mentioned, including Roadies, the series, they have pockets of stuff that I'm super proud of and are part of a growth step that I think is still happening. We Bought a Zoo. I'm I'm really happy with We Bought a Zoo. We Bought a Zoo speaks more to me over time than many of the other things I've done. My mom thought We Bought a Zoo was one of the very best.

我知道这个片名有点吓人，看到片名时会把人们带到另一个地方。就像，也许今晚我会选点别的看。但我觉得《我家买了动物园》这个片名在很多方面是有误导性的。

I know the title is daunting and kind of sends people into another place when they see the title. It's like, maybe I'll choose something else tonight. But We Bought a Zoo has a misleading title, I think, in many ways.

嗯，我的意思是，电影讲的就是这个啊。

Well, I mean, it is what the movie is about.

电影讲的是这个，但也是关于一个追随直觉的人。我不久前去过夏威夷——好吧，是有一阵子了，因为唐·霍还活着。我去看了唐·霍的演出，演出结束后有一条队伍等着让他签名CD。我也在队伍里，轮到我时，我拿着CD。

It is what the movie is about, but it's also about, you know, a guy that follows his instincts. I went to Hawaii not too long ago. Well, it was a while ago because Don Ho was still alive. And I went to see Don Ho, and there's like a line to get your CD by Don Ho signed after the show. So I'm in the line, and I get up to him, and I have my CD.

我说，嘿，唐。是给卡梅隆的。他问，你退休多久了？我心想，退休？我离退休还早着呢。

I say, hey, Don. It's to to Cameron. And he goes, how long ago did you retire? And I'm like, retire? I'm years away from retiring.

但就在那一刻，我心想，哦，该死，伙计。我得加快步伐了，因为唐·霍都觉得我退休了。我从未如此——我不知道该怎么形容——对讲述一个故事感到兴奋，而且我认为乔尼·米切尔的电影正是现在最该讲的故事。所以，你知道，这是一段我很自豪的漫长冒险。

But it was at that moment that I was like, oh, shit, man. I gotta pick up the pace here because Don Ho thinks I'm in retirement. And I've never I've never felt more, I don't know, excited about telling a story, and I think the Joni Mitchell movie is exactly the right story to be telling right now. So, you know, it's it's one long adventure that I'm very proud of.

我想我们可以更深入一些。

I think we can go deeper.

让我们深入一点。

Let's go deeper.

你回答这个问题时首先提到的是花时间抚养儿子们。嗯。你能稍微解释一下吗？你是在暗示这可能是一个艺术家正常创作所需要的条件吗？还是说这是作为父亲的职责使然？

The first thing you said in in response to the question was about sort of taking time to raise your sons. Mhmm. And can you just unpack that for me a little bit? Are you suggesting that sort of what you maybe needed to function as an artist? It was intention with being a dad.

是你的注意力被转移到了不同方向吗？为什么你会从这个角度来回答？

Was your attention pulled in a different direction? Why is that where you went with your answer?

某种程度上说——我告诉你，因为当你抚养一个孩子时，你就不再能自称是个孩子了。

Kind of I'll tell you because when you when you raise a child, you can no longer call yourself a kid.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

我想是这样。所以这就像是进入了一个阶段，思考如何通过这些你带到世界上的人来让世界变得更美好。我认为每一天都是重要的学习过程。这与早上醒来就直接开始整理采访或整天写作有点不同。没有人会来敲你的门，因为你要进入那个创造力发生的圣地。

I think. And so that was Entre into, like, you know, what you can do to make the world a better place through these people that you brought into the world. And I thought every day was an important learning process. It was a little different than waking up in the morning and just getting right into transcribing interviews or writing all day long. Nobody gonna knock at your door because you're going into that hallowed place where creativity happens.

不。你必须规划出你要工作的时间。所以这是一方面。但另一方面是，你看到真正重要的是，你想留下那些能传递共鸣信息的人。我想花时间学习这个，并怀着这种心情写作，但很多作品还没有问世，或者尚未完成。

No. You have to kind of you you have to parcel out the time you're gonna do the work. So there's that's one thing. But the other thing is you see what's truly important is you wanna leave behind people that carried a message that will resonate. And I wanted to learn about that for a while and write with that in my heart, and a lot of the stuff didn't come out or hasn't come out.

有一部关于马文·盖伊的电影，我花了很多年时间创作。

There's a a movie about Marvin Gaye that I spent many years working on.

试图让它成型，对吧？

Trying to get made. Right?

是的，是的。那里面有很多个人化的写作。但我相信一切都会按照应有的方式发展。我喜欢为人父母，也喜欢学习如何在情感上安排自己的生活。

Yeah. Yeah. And there's, like, so much personal writing in that. But I believe everything kind of works the way it should. I love being a parent and and learning how to, like, you know, schedule your life emotionally.

但你的价值不由成功定义，也不由失败定义。这就是我从比利·怀尔德那里学到的。

But you're not defined by your hits nor are you defined by your misses. And that was what I learned from Billy Wilder.

你当然整理了一本很棒的访谈录，就是和比利·怀尔德的对话。是的，是的。你知道，在《与比利·怀尔德对话》中，有一部分你谈到杰克·莱蒙在公寓里的表演，以及他为何如此出色。你说，我觉得你是在谈论他的表演。

Which of course you put together a great book of your interviews with Billy Wilder. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in conversations with Billy Wilder, there's a part where you're talking about Jack Lemmon in the apartment and why he's so good in it. And you say you know, it's something like I think you're talking about his performance.

你说那感觉就像是，向右或向左偏一英寸，整部电影就会陷入煽情或甜腻。而我认为在《香草天空》之后，不知为何，你的写作也发生了这种微妙的偏移，我有三个理论来解释它。你想听吗？

You say it's something like one inch to the right or to the left, and the movie is lost in pathos or sweetness. And I think that after Vanilla Sky, for whatever reason, your writing moved one inch to the right or left, and I have three theories about it. Do you wanna hear

说吧。三个都讲，请。

them? Cool. All three, please.

你好像在说，这家伙为什么要讲他的理论给我听？

You're like, why is this guy telling his theories for

我喜欢这样。

I love it.

来吧。只是...我思考这个问题很久了。所以这是第一个。第一个理论是，在我看来，《几近成名》是你职业生涯，在某种程度上也是你人生的顶峰。它确实是你一直努力追求的目标。

Come It just I've been thinking about it a lot. So here's the first one. The first one is that it seems to me that Almost Famous was the culmination of your career and, in some ways, your life. It was really what you had been working towards

嗯。

Mhmm.

作为一个讲故事的人。然后你完成了那部电影，完美地唱出了你的歌。而之后，也许你有些挣扎，在思考下一首你能唱得同样动听的歌是什么。你觉得这个理论怎么样？

As a storyteller. And then you did that film, and you sang your song beautifully. And that after, maybe there was some struggle to figure out, like, what was the next song you could sing quite so beautifully. How does that theory grab you?

我也在等你的第二和第三个理论呢，老兄。我想看全貌。我想看完整的图景。

I'm waiting for two and three too, man. Want the big picture. I want the big picture.

好的。那个

Okay. The the

给我来张二点。来吧。

Hit me with the deuce. Come on.

好的。另一个或者说下一个是，嗯。《香草天空》是你拍摄的第一部基于已有素材的电影，如果我说错了请纠正。

Okay. The other one or or the next one is that Mhmm. Vanilla Sky is the first film that you made that was you correct me if I'm wrong. That was based on preexisting material.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。所以这是你第一次处理非自己原创的想法。当时那部电影的评价相当两极分化，毁誉参半。我想知道那次经历是否让你觉得，好吧，也许反响不一。

Yeah. So it's the first time you were working with an idea that you hadn't self generated. And then that film was sort of at the time, certainly, the reviews were pretty mixed, pretty divisive. And I wondered if that then after if, like, the experience of of doing that made you feel like, okay. I'm that maybe was mixed.

我需要做一些更'卡梅伦·克罗'风格的东西，而你当时像是在做自己的卡梅伦·克罗翻唱版。就像你在写你认为卡梅伦·克罗应该写的东西。这解释了为什么写作中某些难以言喻的东西让我感觉不同。然后是第三部

I need to do something that's more Cameron Crowe, and you were doing, like, Cameron Crowe cover versions of of yourself. Like, you were writing what you thought the idea of Cameron Crowe was supposed supposed to be writing. And that accounts for why, like, the the some intangible thing about the writing felt different to me. And then the third one

放马过来吧，兄弟。来吧。

Bring it, brother. Come on.

好的。好的。然后是第三部。是的。第三部是你的前妻南希·威尔逊。

Okay. Okay. And then the third one. Yeah. The third one is your ex wife, Nancy Wilson.

你知道，她是Heart乐队的主音吉他手，或者我该说Heart乐队中技艺精湛的主音吉他手。太棒了。她的专辑和演奏至今仍然非常出色，极其出色。她也为你很多电影制作了音乐。

You know, she the lead guitarist in Heart, or I should say ripping lead guitarist in Heart. Ripping. Albums still and her playing still stands up incredibly well. Incredibly well. Who worked on the music for a lot of your films also.

你们俩在2010年离婚了。我想知道失去那段关系在情感和创作上的稳固性，是否在某种程度上影响了工作。

You two got divorced in in 2010. And I wondered if losing the solidity of that relationship, both sort of emotionally and creatively, affected the work in some way.

好吧，三个都是。行。让我告诉你吧。我刚才仔细思考了你说的很多内容。我很喜欢你这样仔细研究我，任何人这样研究我都很喜欢。

Well, all three. Okay. Well, let me tell you something. Here's what I was thinking through a lot of of what you were just saying. I love being studied that carefully by you, by anybody.

我感到很荣幸。非常荣幸。这三个理论都有真实的成分，但还有一个真相是第四种。

I'm honored. I'm totally honored. There's elements of truth in all three, and then there's a truth that would be four.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我会选择第四种。

And I I would choose four.

第四种是什么？

What's four?

第四种就是：生活是最好的编剧。有时候你需要让生活向你展示一点它的模样。所以我长期以来一直过着被各种事务填满的生活。在某个时期，大概是《香草天空》之后吧，对我来说重要的是让生活稍微进入一点，让你的经历告诉你接下来的章节会是什么样子。我确实想写关于随着年龄增长的关系。

And four is life is the best writer. And sometimes you have to let life show you a little bit of what that is. And so I had been living a life that was pretty stacked with stuff for a long time. And what was important to me around the time of, I don't know, I think post Vanilla Sky maybe, was to let life in a little bit and let let your experiences show you what the next chapters were gonna be like. I did wanna write about relationships as you age.

我确实想写关于家庭和所有那些事情。但你需要休息一下，让那种特别的阳光照进来，向你展示生活在那样的状态中是什么样子。就像我一直喜欢弗朗索瓦·特吕弗，因为他拍的是关于成长的电影。你可以和他一起成长。所以我一直想，天啊，我希望成为那种能让人们和你一起成长的人。

I did wanna write about family and all that stuff. But you gotta take a break and let that particular kind of sunlight in to show you what life is like as that. Like I always loved Francois Truffaut because he made movies about growing up. You got to grow up with him. So I always thought like, god, I wanna be one of those guys where you people can kinda grow up with you.

所以在某种程度上，我花时间去成长。但我要提出的一点小异议

So in a way, I took time to grow up. But the one quibble I will have

是的。

Yeah.

对你那精彩的三种理论托盘来说就是：我写作从来不是为了像卡梅伦·克劳。我从来没有那样做过。我读过那些评论。我读过人们说，哦，他试图做卡梅伦·克劳那种事。我不确定我明白那是什么意思。

With your spectacular tray of of three theories is I never wrote to be like Cameron Crowe. I never did that. And I've read that. And I've read I've read where people say, like, oh, he's trying to do a Cameron Crowe thing. I'm not sure I know what that is.

也许它是那种发自内心、对话密集的作品。我仍然不确定是否像心灵之事在你讲述的故事中很重要，但我从未刻意尝试写过卡梅伦·克罗那种风格的东西，因为我一直不太欣赏那些我觉得刻意模仿的艺术家。你知道吗？就像，这是我唯一觉得，不，那不对的地方。

Maybe it's something that's heartfelt and and dialogue heavy or something. I'm still not sure if it's something like matters of the heart are are important in the story that you tell, but I I never sat out and tried to write a Cameron Crow type thing because I I never appreciate artists that I felt did that myself. You know? Like, I just that's the one thing where I thought, well, no. That's not true.

但是，是的，收到差评，有人质疑你的一些作品，这确实是这场大冒险的一部分。如果你幸运的话，你就能继续留在这场冒险中。

But, yeah, getting bad reviews, having people question some of your stuff, it is it is part of the big ride. And if you're lucky, you get to stay on the ride.

你知道，我我读到几年前《人物》杂志上有一篇关于南希·威尔逊的文章。在里面，她谈到了你们的离婚。她说，我认为我们的关系变得更多是关于工作，而不是真正的感情，我们在工作中迷失了彼此。你明白她是什么意思吗？

You know, I I read there was a an article about Nancy Wilson in People a few years back. And in there, she's talking about sort of your divorce. And she said, I think our relationship became more about the work than about a real relationship, and we lost track of each other inside the work. Do you understand what she meant?

是的。我觉得这很公平。

Yeah. I think that's fair.

是的。跟我说说这个。

Yeah. Tell me about that.

我们在一起工作了很多。所以，我的意思是，让我告诉你，走进厨房说‘我需要一首西蒙和加芬克尔风格的情绪曲子。你能先把这想法放在脑子里吗？因为我甚至不一定需要它。’然后她说，‘给我一把吉他’，这感觉有多棒。

We worked a lot together. So that was I mean, let me tell you how fantastic it is to go into the kitchen and say, I need a Simon and Garfunkel kind of mood piece. Would you just put that just put that in the back of your head for something? Because I don't even need that at some point. Give me a guitar, she says.

你递给她一把吉他。她大清早穿着睡袍站在厨房里，即兴弹奏出你在《甜心先生》里听到的配乐。这是我们所有合作电影中的灵丹妙药，我们没日没夜地投入那些工作。这对婚姻可能不太好，但我想她说的是，在西雅图音乐爆发的那段时光里，我们拥有一种魔力，一切就发生在我们社区附近。那是一段非常宁静却又喧闹的时光。

You bring her a guitar. She stands in a robe in the kitchen first thing in the morning playing the score that you hear in Jerry Maguire right off the top of her head. This is an elixir that was in all the movies we worked on together, and we worked, you know, thirty six hours a day on that stuff. And it probably wasn't great for the marriage, but, I think what she's saying is there was a a magic to the time that we had in Seattle when the Seattle music was exploding, and it was all just in our neighborhood. And it was a very quiet but noisy time.

然后当我们搬回洛杉矶后，就变成了一段非常非常喧闹的时光。我不知道我们是否完美地茁壮成长了，但我为我们的两个儿子感到非常自豪。至于南希，你知道，我们现在关系很好。南希现在正在外面弹奏着有史以来最棒的吉他。

And then when we moved back down to LA, it became a noisy, noisy time. And I don't know that we flourished perfectly, but I'm very proud of our two sons. And Nancy, you know, we have a great relationship. Nancy's out there playing the best guitar ever right now.

你知道，即使作为一个年轻人，你写的这些角色，我基本认为他们是受挫的理想主义者。你知道吗？是的。《甜心先生》里的杰里·马奎尔，《情到深处》里的劳埃德·多布勒就是这样。自从你写了那些角色后，你知道，你经历了更多的生活，更多的起起落落。

You know, even even as a younger man, you're writing these characters that were basically I think of them as battered idealists. You know? Yeah. Jerry Maguire, Lloyd Dobbler, and Say Anything is is like that. You know, since you wrote those characters, you know, you've just experienced so much more life, so many more ups, so many more downs.

我我想知道，在68岁的年纪，你对那些角色的看法是否与当初写他们时有所不同？另外，你自己的理想主义现在处于什么状态？

And and I wonder, do you think about those characters any differently at 68 than you did when you wrote them? And then also, what is the state of your own idealism?

我内心理想主义的火焰燃烧得炽热明亮。这某种程度上就是我的生活方式。我热爱所有那些角色。这很疯狂吗？我爱它们，因为它们某种程度上是我家庭的一部分。

The fires of my own idealism are burned brightly. It's kind of how I live. I love all those characters. Is that crazy? I love them because they're part of my family in a way.

我曾与它们生活在一起，现在依然如此，我从《单身一族》中得到了史蒂夫·邓恩这个角色。那个家伙至今还在对我说话。它们都还在以某种方式对我诉说，因为我就是热爱角色，热爱构建世界。我热爱这一切。坐在这里谈话，确实让我也想捕捉当下生活中正在发生的事情。

I lived with them and I still live with them and I get Steve Dunn from singles. I I guy still speaks to me. They all still speak to me in a way because I just I love characters, and I love building worlds. I love it. And it does make me just sitting here talking, it does make me wanna capture things that are happening in my life right now too.

所以我想稍微加快点速度，因为完成并打磨一个剧本之类的东西确实需要花些时间。是的。我希望成为那样一个人，能以某种方式书写我所在年龄群体的故事，随着我年龄增长。所以还有些需要追赶的地方。

And so I just wanna speed it up a little bit because it it kinda takes me a while to, like, finish and hone a script and stuff. Yes. I wanna be that person that writes about my age group in some way or another as I get older. So that's some catching up to do.

卡梅伦，你开口的瞬间就打动了我。非常感谢你抽出这么多时间。我真的很感激。当然。这位是卡梅伦·克劳。

Cameron, you had me at hello. Thank you very much for taking all the time. I really appreciate it. You bet. That's Cameron Crowe.

回忆录《不够酷》将于10月28日出版。要观看本次访谈及更多内容，您可以订阅我们的YouTube频道：youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast。本次对话由怀亚特·奥姆制作，安娜贝尔·培根协助。由艾莉森·本尼迪克特编辑，索尼娅·埃雷罗混音。原创音乐由黛安·王和玛丽安·洛萨诺创作。

Uncool, a memoir, will be published October 28. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@ symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm with help from Annabel Bacon. It was edited by Alison Benedict, mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Diane Wong and Marian Lozano.

摄影由德文·亚尔金负责。我们的高级预约制作人是普里亚·马修，塞思·凯利是我们的高级制片人。本次访谈视频由保拉·诺伊多夫制作。摄影由丹·霍利斯和阿尔弗雷多·基亚拉帕完成。音频由蒂姆·布朗和尼克·皮特曼负责。

Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Mathew, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Video of this interview was produced by Paula Neudorff. Cinematography by Dan Hollis and Alfredo Quiarapa. Audio by Tim Brown and Nick Pittman.

由艾米·马里诺编辑。布鲁克·明特斯是播客视频的执行制片人。特别感谢罗里·沃尔什、雷南·巴雷利、杰弗里·米兰达、麦迪·马西埃洛、杰克·西尔弗斯坦、保拉·舒曼和萨姆·多尔尼克。下周，露露将与瑞茜·威瑟斯彭谈论《早间秀》新一季以及她早期在好莱坞的压力。

It was edited by Amy Marino. Brooke Minters is the executive producer of podcast video. A special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddie Massiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman, and Sam Dolnick. Next week, Lulu talks with Reese Witherspoon about the new season of the morning show and the pressures of her early days in Hollywood.

是的。我看着他们追逐布兰妮·斯皮尔斯，她当时有两个小孩，我也有两个小孩。我觉得媒体对她有一种非常不公平的描绘，把她塑造成坏女孩，而我是好女孩。那对处于聚光灯下的女性来说是一段非常严酷的时期。

Yeah. I watched them chase Britney Spears, and she had two little children, and I had two little children. And I felt like there was this really unfair portrayal of her as a bad girl, and but I was a good girl. And it was a very punishing time for women who were in the spotlight.

我是大卫·马切斯，这里是《纽约时报》的访谈节目。时报。

I'm David Marchese, and this is the interview from The New York Times. Times.