“美国制造”的混乱现实

美貌与赢得网球大满贯、赋能社区或追踪美洲豹穿越南美洲原始腹地有什么关系？

What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam or empowering communities or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America?

你好。

Hi there.

我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼，我带着《这不是一个美妆播客》第二季回来了，在这个播客中，我揭示了美貌如何渗透在我们生活的方方面面。

I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season two of this is not a beauty podcast where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives.

请在您喜爱的播客平台上收听由欧莱雅集团出品的《这不是一个美妆播客》。

Listen to this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·拉瓦罗。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Lavaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

亚利桑那州一座大型工厂的建设本应体现特朗普政府将制造业带回美国的能力。

The construction of a massive factory in Arizona was supposed to embody the Trump administration's ability to bring manufacturing back to The US.

然而，正如我的同事彼得·古德曼所发现的，它反而给了全球企业整整18000个理由，重新考虑在美国建厂。

Instead, as my colleague, Peter Goodman, found out, it's provided companies around the world with literally 18,000 reasons to think twice about building in America.

今天是12月22日，星期一。

It's Monday, December 22.

彼得，谢谢你来演播室。

Peter, good of you coming to the studio.

很高兴。

Delighted.

我想先问问，你能不能为我们描述一下你最近参观的这家工厂？

I wonder, just to start this conversation, if you can describe this factory that you recently visited to us.

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

所以那是星期五早上9点20分，我刚到达——我的意思是，在凤凰城极北部有一个巨大的、几乎空无一物的沙漠谷地，放眼望去，一片荒凉。

So it's about 09:20 in the morning on Friday, and I'm just arriving I mean, there's this giant, mostly empty desert valley in the Extreme North Of Phoenix, As far as the eye could see, really, emptiness.

我站在一条碎石路上，看着仙人掌和各种沙漠灌木一直延伸到地平线。

I'm standing on a gravel road, looking at cactuses and various desert scrub just flowing out to the horizons.

这一切都将被住宅和办公楼填满，以支持这座工厂。我见过不少工厂，但这座的规模是我从未想象过的。

That this is all gonna get filled up with housing and and offices to feed So this factory, I've seen a lot of factories in my day

你确实见过很多。

You sure have.

其规模是我从未想象过的。

Is on a scale that I've never even imagined.

我们谈论的是一千多英亩的土地。

We're talking about more than a thousand acres.

整个厂区是一座又长又低的灰色建筑，顶部可见许多烟囱。

The complex itself, I'm looking at a long, low, gray building with a bunch of smokestacks visible on top.

你能看到至少十几台起重机。

You can see at least a dozen cranes.

你能听到某种东西的轰鸣声。

You can hear the roar of something.

现在有一座建筑的顶部正冒出黑烟。

There's black smoke now coming out of the top of one of these buildings.

再往远处看，你能看到正在工作的吊车。

And beyond, you can see these cranes that are working.

各个方向都是施工用的吊车。

And there are construction cranes in every direction.

我曾经在中国上海，正值那里的建筑热潮时期居住过。

Now I lived in Shanghai, China, in the height of the construction boom there.

所以当迪拜处于大规模建设时，我也在那里。

So I was in Dubai when Dubai was under enormous construction.

而在那片区域的西边，有大量吊车。

And then to the west of there, there's a ton of cranes.

只是数一数这一排。

Just counting row.

一、二、

One, two,

三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、十一。

three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11.

我的意思是，我快数完了。

I mean, I'm running out.

我已经数了15台，但还有更多。

I've I've counted 15 of them, and there's still more.

再往西边还能看到更多，这些只是我见过的 crane 数量和建筑工人最多的地方，那种身临其境、感受到一个地方正在发生深刻变化的时刻。

And then there's more visible, like, way beyond to the west that could be These are the only places where I've seen these numbers of cranes and numbers of construction people wandering about and that feeling of like you're present there for a moment when things are really changing in a deep way in that place.

再往远处，我看到重型设备正在移动。

Just beyond, I see heavy equipment on the move.

我看到挖掘机正在搬运泥土。

I see diggers that are moving soil around.

就像大型建筑工地应有的那样，这里有一整排移动厕所。

There's a whole wall of porta potties as you would expect at a giant construction project.

我的意思是，人们都说这是北美最大的建筑项目。

I mean, this is, people say, the biggest construction project in North America.

我得说，它确实名不虚传。

And I I gotta say it doesn't disappoint.

而看着这座正在建设的工厂，也唤起了同样的感觉。

And looking at this factory under construction evokes that sense as well.

规模感。

Of scale.

不仅仅是规模，而是这件事本身具有超越其自身的重大意义。

Not just scale, but that this is important beyond the thing itself.

这庞大、布满起重机的工厂城代表了什么？

What does it represent, this gargantuan, crane filled factory ville?

它代表了一个关键时刻：在美国政治体系和商业界，人们达成了一种共识，认为全球化——我们成年后大部分时间所生活的这套体系——在许多方面都带来了丰硕的成果和益处。

It represents a moment when a consensus broke out in the American political system, in the business world, that globalization, this system that we've been living under for most of our adult lives, has been very fruitful and beneficial in all sorts of ways.

但有些东西，制造地点至关重要。

But there are some things where it matters where we make them.

其中之一就是计算机芯片。

And one of those things is computer chips.

我们需要拥有自己的计算机芯片库存。

We need to have our own stock of computer chips.

我们需要在国内生产它们，以应对战争或灾难的情况。

We need to make them at home in the event of war or disaster.

而我所看到的这些工厂，正是在生产这些东西。

And that's what they're making in these factories that I saw.

计算机芯片几乎是所有设备的大脑。

Computer chips are the brains of just about everything.

你手中的iPhone，以及遍布各地、用于支撑人工智能运行的数据中心，都离不开它。

The iPhone in your hand, the data centers that are getting built all over the place to make artificial intelligence work.

它们正被应用到我们的汽车中。

They're going into our cars.

它们正被应用到我们的家用电器中。

They're going into our appliances.

我的意思是，现在几乎很难想象有什么制造产品不包含某种计算机芯片。

I mean, it's pretty hard to think about any manufactured product now that doesn't have some kind of computer chip.

因此，在美国本土建设这样的工厂来生产这些芯片，显然是非常重要且刻不容缓的。

So it would seem like a very, very big and overdue thing to have such a factory building those chips right here in America.

这是一件大事。

It's a big deal.

我的意思是，这是美国重新制造产品的强烈国家愿望最切实的体现。

I mean, it is the most palpable manifestation of this really, I think, you can say national aspiration to build things in America again.

但这里有一些复杂情况。

But there are some complications.

建造这些工厂的公司并不是美国公司。

This company that's building these factories is not American.

它是台积电，也就是台湾积体电路制造公司。

It's Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp, TSMC as it's known.

这是一家台湾公司。

It is a Taiwanese company.

这是一家非常成功的台湾公司，但对台积电来说，要在美国补贴和一整套政治流程的推动下建成这座工厂，却是一场极其痛苦的经历。

It is a very successful Taiwanese company, but it's also been an excruciating pain for TSMC to get this thing built with American subsidies, with a whole political process designed to bring this about.

进展依然缓慢、昂贵且困难。

It's still been slow, expensive, and difficult.

因此，这确实引发了一个问题：这是一场胜利吗？

And so it really raises the question, is this a triumph?

这是未来我们开展此类工作的模板，还是一个警示故事？

Is this the template for how we can do this going forward, or is this the cautionary tale?

所以，彼得，给我们讲讲这座工厂的故事，以及它如何暗示了未来的一种可能，或者这种未来的不切实际性。

So, Peter, tell us the story of this factory and all the ways in which it suggests a potential future or perhaps the impracticality of that future.

看吧。

Look.

你必须回到疫情时期，那时彻底暴露了一个问题：将几乎所有重要产品的生产集中在单一国家并不是一个好主意。

You have to go back to the pandemic, which was the great reveal that it's not such a great idea to concentrate nearly all of the production of vital things in single countries.

没错。

Right.

当你醒来发现，在疫情高峰期，如果没有从中国进口物资，你根本无法制造呼吸机。

So, you know, waking up and discovering that you really can't make a ventilator in the middle of a pandemic unless you import stuff from China.

那时疫情最为严重。

Where the pandemic was at its worst.

疫情正是从这里开始的，而这个国家恰好也是我们决定与其打贸易战的国家，这显然不是可靠获取所需物资的好方式。

Where the pandemic began, a country that not incidentally we decided to have a trade war with, not a great way to reliably get the stuff you need.

最先进的计算机芯片主要在台湾制造。

And computer chips, the most advanced ones, are made overwhelmingly in Taiwan.

台湾当然是一座自治岛屿，但中华人民共和国及其北京政府声称其为中国领土的一部分，这意味着，任何一天都有可能面临中国军队现身并接管的风险，这将对计算机芯片供应链造成巨大冲击。

Taiwan is, of course, a self governing island that is claimed as part of Chinese territory by the People's Republic Of China and its government in Beijing, which means that, you know, there is the not zero risk that on any given day, the Chinese military could show up and take over, and that could be an enormous disruption to the computer chip supply.

从某种意义上说，疫情就像是中国突然入侵台湾时可能发生的状况的理论预演，因为它向我们展示了全球供应链突然中断时会是什么样子。

And in a sense, the pandemic was a potential theoretical foretaste of what it would be like if all of a sudden China were to invade Taiwan because it showed us what it looks like when your global supply chains get cut off.

我们突然不得不面对这样一个想法：也许所有这些芯片都永远无法离开台湾。

Suddenly, we have to grapple with the idea that maybe all those computer chips can never get out of Taiwan.

我们必须考虑韧性。

And we have to think about resilience.

我们需要这样看待这个问题：我们需要一些保险。

We need the the way to think of it is we need some insurance.

这并不是说全球化是坏事。

It's not that globalization is bad.

问题是，没有对生活中不可避免的风险进行保障的全球化，并不那么好。

It's that globalization without insurance against the risks that are an inevitable part of life, that's not so good.

那这种保障具体是什么样子呢？

And what does that insurance actually look like?

这意味着政府必须直接介入，确保某些产品在美国本土生产，而这需要补贴。

It looks like the government saying, we're gonna have to play a direct role in making sure that certain things are built in The United States, and that's gonna require subsidies.

于是，拜登政府上台了。

So along comes the Biden administration.

拜登政府打破了数代人以来的自由贸易教条。

And the Biden administration breaks from generations of free trade dogma.

这种认为市场会自行决定生产什么、在哪里生产的观念，他们认为效率只能带我们走这么远。

This idea that we just let the market sort out what gets built and where, and they say efficiency only takes us so far.

政府必须发挥作用，确保像芯片这样的关键产品在美国本土生产。

The government's gonna have to play a role in making sure that certain things like computer chips are built in The United States.

这促成了《芯片与科学法案》的出台，这是一项具有里程碑意义的立法，向在美国建设芯片工厂的企业提供了数百亿美元的补贴。

And this becomes the Chips and Science Act, this landmark piece of legislation that's got tens of billions of dollars in subsidies given to companies that build computer chip factories in The United States.

这些公司中的一家，台积电，实际上参与了这项法案的起草。

One of those companies, Taiwan Semiconductor, actually participates in the writing of this bill.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这家名为台积电的公司最终获得了超过60亿美元的补贴，用于在凤凰城建设这一系列工厂。

And that company, TSMC, ends up with a $6,000,000,000 plus grant to then build this complex of factories in Phoenix.

嗯。

Mhmm.

最终，当所有工厂建成时，它们将在亚利桑那州凤凰城生产全球约三分之一的先进芯片。

At the end of the day, when it's all built, they'll be making roughly a third of all the advanced ships they make worldwide right there in Phoenix, Arizona.

考虑到这些工作此前高度集中于台湾，这确实意义重大。

That's a really, really big deal given just how much of that work was concentrated in Taiwan.

这确实意义重大。

It's a very big deal.

这对台积电来说意义重大。

It's a very big deal for TSMC.

这对美国来说也是一个巨大的利好。

It's a very big deal for The United States.

这对凤凰城的本地经济来说更是天大的好事，因为凤凰城传统上一直深受房地产兴衰周期的影响。

And it's certainly a very big deal for the local economy in Phoenix, which has traditionally been very tied to the boom and bust cycle of real estate.

现在我们谈论的是成千上万个建筑岗位来建设这个项目，还有成千上万个岗位用于最终生产芯片。

And now we're talking about thousands of jobs in construction to build this, thousands more to eventually make the chips themselves.

此外还有各种配套服务，比如律师、保险公司、餐饮服务商、卡车司机、仓库等。

And then there's all sorts of, you know, associated services, lawyers, insurance companies, caterers, truck drivers, warehouses.

没错。

Right.

理论上，任何一个州都会为这样的经济活动而拼命争取。

A state would in theory kill for this kind of economic activity.

任何一个州都会为这样的经济活动而拼命争取。

Any state would kill for this kind of economic activity.

没错。

That's right.

所以

So

在破土动工当天，也就是2022年12月，你看到的是亚利桑那州的共和党州长。

on the day of the groundbreaking, this is December 2022, you've got the Republican governor of the state of Arizona.

你看到的是参议员们。

You've got members of the senate.

你看到的是工会代表、大学校长。

You have union representatives, university presidents.

嗯，

Well,

我告诉你，你起步的地方很对。

I tell you what, you're starting off in the right place.

这将成为亚利桑那州的一项非凡资产。

This is gonna be an incredible asset to the state of Arizona.

特别感谢

A special thanks to the

最后，民主党总统乔·拜登出席仪式，引领游行，庆祝这一重大经济成就。

And finally, Joe Biden, the Democratic president, shows up leading the parade in celebration of this enormous triumph in economic development.

你们城市的其他人，州长，你我虽然立场不同，但我们看到并共享同样的愿景：亚利桑那州将成为技术变革的真正中心。

Rest of your city and, gov, you and I are different sides, but we see and share the same vision as Arizona is a hub, literally a hub for tech for technical changes that's gonna take place.

这已经取得了良好进展

And that's well under

总统将他的政府与重拾未来联系在一起。

The president is associating his administration with reclaiming the future.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我知道我们的主办方不会介意指出，芯片是美国发明的。

And I know our hosts won't mind by pointing out that America invented the chip.

他很高兴谈论这件事对美国制造业复兴的重大意义，以及这一具有前瞻性的领域。

He's delighted to be talking about what a huge deal this is for the rejuvenation of American manufacturing and in something that's, you know, forward looking.

这是在建设一个美国未来，而这项技术正是美国率先开创的。

This is building an American future in a technology that The US actually pioneered.

你在这里，是因为你看到了我们所有人都看到的东西。

And you're here because you're seeing what we're all seeing.

美国制造业回来了，朋友们。

American manufacturing is back, folks.

美国制造业回来了。

American manufacturing is back.

我知道，彼得，因为你在我们对话开始时就说过，这个故事即将出现复杂的转折。

And I know because you said so at the beginning of our conversation, Peter, that this story is about to take a complicated twist.

但到目前为止，确实值得说一句：这是一个关于在美国体制下可能发生的事情的寓言，而这种体制通常并不以完成大型国内制造业项目而闻名。

But so far, it really does feel worth saying that this is a fable of what's possible in an American system that's not known for getting big domestic manufacturing projects of any kind done.

是的。

Yeah.

这是现实生活中对这个充满才华与技能人才的庞大经济的体现

This is a real life manifestation of what this enormous economy full of talented, skilled people

和政治体系。

And political system.

政治体系并不总能促成最富有成效的结果。

Political system that doesn't always help bring about the most fruitful outcomes.

但我们有很多资金。

But we got a lot of money.

我们有很多专业知识。

We got a lot of know how.

如果我们能将这一切顺利整合，这就是我们能生产出的东西。

And if we can get it all working right, this is what we can produce.

然而，当我三年后抵达凤凰城时，它仍然是一个非凡成就的标志。

And yet, by the time I got out to Phoenix, about three years after the groundbreaking, it was still a marker of incredible triumph.

但伴随这种成就的，是一种强烈的感受：天啊，建成这一切真是费了多大劲，而整个项目已成为一种象征——不仅象征着我们能实现什么，也象征着美国治理如何阻碍我们的愿景。

But alongside the triumph was a sense that, wow, what a pain it's been to get this constructed and that the whole complex had become symbolic, not just of what we can achieve, but also the many ways in which American governance can get in the way of our visions.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你知道吗？印度是全球最大的加密货币采用国，而爱沙尼亚在所有选举中都提供在线投票。

Did you know that India is the biggest adopter of crypto globally and that Estonia offers online voting in all its elections?

我是凯瑟琳·本霍尔特，纽约时报全新每日通讯《世界》的主持人。

I'm Catherine Benholt, host of The World, a new daily newsletter from The New York Times.

我花了二十年时间在十多个国家进行报道，有一天我突然想到：我会想读什么样的通讯呢？

I spent twenty years reporting from more than a dozen countries, and it occurred to me one day, you know, what kind of newsletter would I like to read?

我不住在美国内地。

I don't live in The US.

我希望有一份专门为全球读者撰写的通讯，能帮助我理解正在发生什么以及为什么重要，最好还能让我感到振奋，而不是沮丧。

I want something that's written especially for a global audience, something that helps me understand what's going on and why it matters, and ideally something that doesn't just get me down.

《世界》正是这样一份通讯。

The world is just that.

每个工作日早晨，我们会为您带来最重要的新闻、我的同事们发自现场的报道，以及一些令人愉悦的视频惊喜。

Each weekday morning, we bring you the biggest stories, dispatches from my colleagues on the ground, and a few delightful surprises with video too.

纽约时报《世界》通讯。

The World Newsletter from The New York Times.

立即前往 nytimes.com/theworld 订阅，每天早晨直接送达您的邮箱。

Sign up now at nytimes.com/theworld to get it in your inbox each weekday morning.

那么，彼得，在这个故事中所有这些承诺和成就之后，这些工厂建设在破土动工后开始出了什么问题？

So, Peter, after all of this promise and achievement in the story, what starts to go wrong with the construction of this set of factories after the groundbreaking?

嗯，从一开始，

Well, from the beginning,

很明显，台积电这家在台湾成功建造并运营大型工厂的公司，正在应对一个与它习惯的系统截然不同的环境。

it's clear that Taiwan Semiconductor, this very successful company that's managed to make and run huge factories in Taiwan, is dealing with a system that's very different than the one that it's accustomed to.

而在台湾本土，它们在专门的科技园区内建造工厂，那里只有一个中央管理机构。

And, you know, at home in Taiwan, they're building factories in these dedicated science parks where there's one central authority.

一个许可证，一次检查，就搞定了。

There's one permit, one inspection, and they're done.

真不错。

How nice.

真不错。

How nice.

而且这些园区与可能对周边环境有不同想法的居民住宅是隔离开的。

And they're separated from, you know, homeowners who may have different ideas about what they wanna see, what they wanna live next to.

在凤凰城，他们要应对县政府、市政府，还有州和联邦的环境法规。

Well, in Phoenix, they're dealing with the county, they're dealing with the municipal government, there are state and federal environmental regulations.

因此，他们必须申请成千上万的许可证。

And so there are literally thousands of permits that they have to get.

成千上万。

Thousands.

在台湾，这原本只需要一个许可证。

Thousands where it would have been one in Taiwan.

这对台积电来说一切都是全新的。

And this is all new to TSMC.

即使是一家美国公司想要这么做，也会感到陌生，因为事实上，我们在县级和市级层面并没有针对这一特定行业的监管规定。

Even And if an American company were trying to do this, it would be new to them because we it turns out, don't have regulations governing this particular industry at the county and the municipal level.

当地分区手册第25页上根本没有规定，当在沙漠中建造芯片工厂时，应该使用什么样的照明系统。

There's no code on page 25 of the local zoning manual that says, when building a chip factory here in the desert, this is the lighting system.

没错。

Correct.

所以台积电实际上必须制定18,000条规则。

So TSMC actually has to write 18,000 rules.

哇。

Wow.

然后在他们试图弄清楚的时候，还得遵守这些规则，比如说，让我们看看。

That they then have to comply with while they're trying to figure out, like, well, let's see.

你有这个联邦管理的清洁空气项目，但真正要打交道、申请许可的是县政府。

You've got this federally administered clean air program, but it's the county we actually have to deal with to get the permit.

他们还得起草这些条款。

And they have to write the language.

制定这18,000条规则花费了他们3500万美元。

18,000 rules cost them $35,000,000.

仅仅是起草规则而已。

Just to write the rules.

仅仅是起草规则，结果就是这样。

Just to write the rules, it turns out.

为了明确一点，当我们说这家公司正在制定这些规则时，他们是在协助制定规则，这些规则随后会由地方政府起草和采纳。

And just to be clear, when we say that this company is writing these rules, they're helping write rules that will then be drafted, adopted by local government.

没错。

Correct.

但这就像前沿领域。

But this is like the frontier.

对吧？

Right?

因此，他们实际上必须深入细节，向本应监管他们的人员解释他们究竟在做什么、可能出现什么问题以及该如何操作。

So they actually have to get down into the nitty gritty of educating the people who are supposed to be regulating them on what it is that they're doing, and what could go wrong, and how it needs to be done.

你遇到过最有趣的规则是什么？

What's the most intriguing rule you came across?

嗯，曾经有一家名为林德的供应商，生产空气分离设备。

Well, at one point, there was a supplier, a company called Linde, that makes air separation equipment.

半导体工厂内部的空气必须非常纯净。

The inside of these computer chip factories has to have really pure air.

因此，他们从邻近的工厂输送洁净空气进来，而仅仅移动一堆土并保留部分土堆就需获得15项不同许可和超过15次不同检查。

And so they pipe in this clean air from a neighboring plant, and just to move a mound of dirt and then leave part of the mound in place required 15 different permits and more than 15 different inspections.

好的。

Okay.

所以，这仅仅是我想像中众多麻烦中的第一个。

So that is the first of what I imagine are many headaches.

没错。

Right.

接着，他们很快发现，缺乏足够具备相应技能的人才来建造这样的工厂。

Then they quickly figure out that there aren't enough people with the right sorts of skills to build one of these plants.

这些工厂的建造必须达到极其精确的标准。

These plants have to be built to extraordinary specificity.

我的意思是，制造电脑芯片简直像一种工业魔术，它涉及将光线投射到微小的硅片上。

I mean, it's kind of an industrial magic trick to make a computer chip, and it involves beaming light onto tiny pieces of silicon.

这有点像一张照片的负片。

It's sort of like a photographic negative.

我们谈论的是人类头发宽度的千分之几的百分比。

We're talking about fractions of a thousandth of a percent of the width of a human hair.

事情必须刚刚好。

Things have to be just so.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在台湾，有成千上万的人通过学徒制度培养出来，实际参与过芯片工厂的建设。

And in Taiwan, are thousands of people who've come through an apprentice system, who've actually participated in building fabs.

上一次在美国建成大型芯片工厂已经是十三年前的事了。

The last time we completed a large scale fab in the computer chip industry in The United States was thirteen years ago.

哇。

Wow.

所以我们根本缺乏建造这种工厂的肌肉记忆。

So we just simply don't have the muscle memory to build one of these plants.

如果没有依赖拥有这种专业知识的地方，我们根本做不到，而这些地方都在东亚。

We can't do this without relying on places that have this expertise, and those are places in East Asia.

那么公司是如何应对这个问题的？

So how does the company deal with that?

他们开始从台湾引进专业工人，这立即引发了与当地工会的严重对立。

They start bringing in specialized workers from Taiwan, which immediately causes, you know, major animosity with local unions.

当地工会说：等等，先别急。

And the local unions say, well, hold on a second.

如果联邦政府正在开出超过60亿美元的支票

If the federal government's writing a check for 6 plus billion

那应该是美国人的工作。

dollars It should be American jobs.

我们应该得到这些工作。

We should be getting the job.

台积电说：你们会得到成千上万个工作岗位，但为了现在能让这个项目顺利启动，我们必须找一些懂得安装这些工厂中高度专业化先进设备的人。

And TSMC says, you will be getting thousands of jobs, but to get this thing off and running right now, we gotta go find some people who know how to install this specialized, highly advanced equipment that goes into these plants.

所以他们派人来完成

So they bring in people to do

那个。

that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

最终，工会赢得了一些承诺，即台积电将雇佣一定数量的工人，与工会的关系也因此恢复了和平。

So eventually the unions win some promises that TSMC will hire a certain number of workers and peace reigns with the unions.

但与此同时，一群美国工人提起诉讼，指控台积电歧视美国员工，把他们当成懒惰和无能的人。

But meanwhile, there's a lawsuit filed by a bunch of American workers who accused TSMC of discriminating against American workers, treating them like they're lazy and incompetent.

他们指控台湾经理用中文交谈，目的是将美国员工排除在交流之外。

They accused the Taiwanese managers of speaking in Chinese as a way of excluding the American workers from participating.

这可能并不是实际情况。

Which is probably not quite the case.

他们讲中文，很可能只是因为他们本来就讲中文。

They're probably speaking Chinese because they speak Chinese.

我的意思是，那是他们最擅长、最高效的交流语言。

I mean, they that's the language that they could speak most efficiently.

我的意思是，我确实听一些住在凤凰城的美籍台湾人说过，对于那些肩负着数十亿美元项目、背后有总部紧盯着交付压力的人来说，使用母语交流根本算不上歧视。

So, I mean, this was certainly something that I heard from Taiwanese Americans who are living in Phoenix that, you know, it's hardly an act of discrimination that, you know, someone who's under the gun to deliver on a complicated project that costs billions of dollars with the mothership breathing down their neck to deliver, they're gonna wanna speak to people in their native language.

除了关于规则的各种紧张关系外，还暴露出一种文化冲突：一家跨国公司试图完成这项艰巨任务，而一群本地美国工人则对这一切感到不满。

So on top of all the tensions about rules, there are these cultural tensions being revealed between an international company trying to do this hard thing and a group of local American workers who are chafing at all that represents.

台积电在其自身的体系中是一家非常成功的企业，但现在它正在适应一个不同的体系。

TSMC is a highly successful company in its own system, but now it's navigating a different system.

而对员工的期望也有所不同。

And there's a different set of expectations for workers.

我的意思是，在台湾，台积电采取一种家长式管理方式：我们会照顾你，给你很高的薪酬，如果需要，还会帮你解决住房问题；但当工厂出问题、我们需要你立刻到场时，我们根本不在乎你正在做什么。

I mean, in Taiwan, TSMC operates in a kind of paternalistic fashion, where we'll take care of you, you'll be very well paid, we'll get involved in your housing if But need when we need you in the middle of the when something goes wrong at that factory, we really don't care what you're up to.

你必须马上赶到那里。

You gotta be over there pronto.

这一点是大家心照不宣的。

And that's understood.

人们工作时间非常长。

People work very long hours.

施工队伍工作的时间超出了我们所说的加班时间，但却没有记录为加班。

Construction crews work what we would call overtime without logging as such.

美国工人所处的系统中，我们对雇主并没有同样的信任。

The American worker is operating in a system where we don't have the same sort of faith in our employers.

我们也没有同样的社会责任感。

We don't have the same sense of social obligation.

因此，美国工人从一种更契约化的角度看待这个问题——嘿，我知道我五点就该下班了。

And so the American worker comes at this from a much more contractual, hey, you know, I'm supposed to be off at five kind of standpoint.

别给我打电话。

Don't call me.

如果你周末给我打电话，我正和孩子在家，可能赶不过去。

And you call me on the weekend, I'm home with my kids, maybe I can't make it.

因此，这造成了各种误解，从美国人的角度来看，产生了不良情绪。

And so this creates all sorts of misunderstandings, bad feeling from the American standpoint.

他们从台湾人的角度来看，是在应对一个专横、控制欲强的公司。

They're dealing with this domineering, you know, control oriented company from the Taiwanese perspective.

他们面对的是一些并不全心投入团队、也不如从台湾引进的员工那么努力的工人。

They're dealing with workers who aren't fully in it for the team and aren't working as hard as the people they're bringing in from Taiwan.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然，我们还没谈到这个庞大厂区周边的邻居们

And, of course, we haven't even gotten to the idea that there are neighbors to this vast complex

对。

Right.

毫无疑问，因为这是美国，这些邻居们会有一些疑问和担忧。

Who no doubt, because this is The United States, have some questions and concerns.

对。

Right.

所以我花时间考察了台积电一家供应商——一家名为安姆科的公司正在建设的工厂。

So I spent time looking at plant that's being built by one of TSMC's suppliers, this company called Amcor.

他们负责建造周边的辅助设施。

They do what's ancillary building nearby.

这是一个所谓的封装工厂。

It's a so called packaging plant.

他们将制造好的芯片进行配置，使其适配你的iPhone、汽车或其他设备。

They take the chips that are made, and they configure them to fit into your iPhone or your car or whatever.

而这些工厂最终建在了一个规划中的混合用途社区正中央。

Well, they end up in this right in the middle of a planned mixed use community.

混合用途意味着这里有零售店、可能还有一些办公室、可步行到达的住宅，周围还有高尔夫球场。

That's supposed to mean, you know, retail, maybe some offices, walkable homes, there are golf courses around.

邻居们得知这里计划建设一座工厂。

And neighbors learn that there's this factory planned.

这将影响他们的视野、宁静与安宁。

It's going to interfere with their views, their peace and quiet.

他们担心水资源问题。

They're worried about water.

他们还担心大型卡车会穿行于该地区。

They're worried about tractor trailers coming through the area.

当地市政府提供了保证，称这家工厂只会建到一定高度，不会那么大。

And the local city, they offer these assurances that the factory is only going to be so high, it's not going to be that big.

但与此同时，由于对AI芯片的惊人需求，工厂的高度突然会翻倍。

And then meanwhile, because of the stunning demand for AI chips, suddenly it's gonna be twice as high.

占地面积将变为原来的四倍。

It's gonna be four times the footprint.

最终，这些居民联合起来，成功阻止了这家工厂的建设，或者至少迫使Amcor迁往其他地点。

And eventually, these homeowners mass together and they successfully kill this plant, or they at least they force Amcor to go move to a different site.

我认为这是一个值得深入分析的时刻：一方面，如果我们真的认真对待在美国制造计算机芯片，我们需要像Amcor这样的工厂。

And I think this is a moment worth unpacking that on the one hand, if we're really serious about having computer chips made in The United States, we need a plant like Amcor's.

另一方面，这些居民并没有自愿参与一场推动美国制造业发展的国家运动。

On the other hand, these homeowners didn't sign up for some sort of national crusade in to advance American manufacturing.

这些人大部分都是退休人员。

Most of these people are retirees.

他们只是想要一个安静的地方生活、享受生活、打高尔夫。

They they just want a peaceful place to live and enjoy And play golf.

看日落，打高尔夫。

Sunset and play golf.

对。

Right.

所以值得回到这一点：在台湾，这两个群体之间相隔很远。

So it's worth coming back to this point that in Taiwan, these two groups would be separated by vast distances.

这在美国体系中是独特的，有些人称这些人是‘邻避者’。

It's uniquely in the American system, and some people would call these guys nimbies.

另一些人则说，政府没有更好地规划，导致利益发生冲突，这真是荒谬。

Others would say, it's absurd that government didn't plan this better so that there is no collision of interest.

一群想看仙人掌的退休老人，理应能享受这样的生活，与此同时，我们也要在亚利桑那州这片广袤的土地上，找到另一块足够大的地方来建这座工厂。

A bunch of retirees who wanna look at cactuses should be able to do that at the same time that we're figuring out where else in this giant state of Arizona could there be a piece of land big enough to have this factory.

在报道这些争议和紧张局势的过程中，我想知道你的同情心站在哪一边。

In the course of reporting on all of these disputes and tensions, I'm curious where you found your sympathies lying.

你是站在一家公司一边，它说：看。

Is it with a company that says, look.

我们只是在努力实现美国对防范最坏情况的承诺。

We're just trying to fulfill America's pledge to have insurance against the worst case scenarios.

我们只是想在美国建一家工厂，确保你能获得芯片。

We're just trying to build a factory in The US that makes sure you have access to chips.

我们接触过客户，但你是否反而更同情那些美国民众，他们说：等等。

We have access to our clients, did you find yourself instead more drawn to these American folks who said, wait a minute.

这些应该是美国的工作，或者我们并没有同意在我们的社区建这样的工厂？

These should be American jobs, or we did not sign up for this building in our community?

嗯，这个问题的复杂性在于，桌上的每个人都有合理的论点。

Well, think part of the complexity of this is that pretty much everybody at the table has a reasonable argument to make.

我们生活在一个民主国家。

We live in a democracy.

在规划社区购房的人，预期可能会出现一家星巴克，而不是一家工厂，他们有权对社区内建设什么发表意见。

People who buy homes in a planned community expecting that maybe a Starbucks will pop up and not a factory should have a say over what gets built in their midst.

而在一个荒漠之地，这 literally 是一片沙漠。

And in a place where it's a desert, it's literally a desert.

你还担心水资源短缺的问题，而关于谁有权使用科罗拉多河以及流域地区水资源枯竭的争端已经十分激烈。

And you're worried about shortages of water, and there's already great battles over who gets access to the Colorado River, and the depletion of the watershed in areas.

应该有一个流程来评估这些影响。

There should be a process to figure out what are the impacts.

许多这些许可是基于代表美国民主胜利的项目所颁发的。

And a lot of these permits are permits under programs that represent triumphs of American democracy.

我们拥有先进的工作场所安全标准。

We have advanced workplace safety.

我们拥有先进的环境保护措施。

We have advanced environmental protection.

只是围绕这些法律，官僚体系已经逐渐膨胀，而我们却尚未厘清这些棘手的土地使用问题。

It's just that this bureaucracy has now grown up around some of these laws without us sorting out these naughty land use questions.

我认为人们完全可以表示理解。

And I think one can be sympathetic Right.

对于我们必须认真思考国家安全和工业未来这一观点，这是有道理的，而这需要政府发挥作用。

To the argument that we have to think seriously about our national security, our industrial future, and that's gonna require a government role.

但这一切必须以深思熟虑、审慎的方式进行，而我们在这一领域还有很多追赶的空间。

But that's gotta be done in a thoughtful, deliberative way, and we got a lot of catch up to do in that area.

所以我认为，彼得，这把我们带到了你这项报道中浮现的最重要、最根本的问题：为了完成这个项目而经历的种种繁琐程序，是为美国大规模重建制造业树立了典范，还是成了警示故事，表明在美国做这类事情实在太难，以至于会让其他公司——甚至那些没有获得美国政府数十亿美元拨款的公司——望而却步？

So I think, Peter, this brings us to the most important and most existential question of all to emerge from this reporting you did, which is, did all of the rigmarole involved in getting this project complete, did it make this a template for the reestablishment of manufacturing in The United States at a massive scale, or does it loom as the cautionary tale for why it's just too hard to do this in The US that would send similar companies and perhaps those not getting a multibillion dollar check from the US government, running in the other direction?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

我会说，孩子们，别在家尝试这个。

I would say kids, don't try this at home.

我的意思是，认真地说，我们很容易认为，一开始肯定会一团糟。

I mean, in in like, in all seriousness, we are tempted to look at this and say, of course, at the beginning, it's gonna be messy.

这会很棘手。

It's gonna be tricky.

我们会越来越熟练的。

We'll get better at this.

这是混乱的开端。

This is the messy beginning.

是的。

Yeah.

这是混乱的开端。

It's the messy beginning.

而且，你知道，二十五年后我们会回望这段时光，说：没错，那确实很难，但我们挺过来了，真的取得了成果，而且这一定会成功。别忘了，台积电现在承诺要投资1650亿美元。

And that, you know, we'll look back in twenty five years and say, yeah, you know, that was tough, but boy, we really got through that, and we really got something, and But this will totally work you know, let's remember, Taiwan Semiconductor is now promising to invest a $165,000,000,000.

能随意动用这么大笔资金的公司并不多。

There aren't a lot of companies that can throw around that sort of money.

这是一家非常成功的企业。

This is a highly successful company.

无论从哪个角度看，它都是全球行业的领导者。

It is by any measure the global industry leader.

但即便如此，他们也经历了一段艰难时期。

And they had a tough time of it.

他们表示自己学到了很多，现在有能力更快地推进了。

They've said that they've learned a lot, and they're in a position to go faster now.

有理由相信这一点确实如此。

And there's reason to think that that's so.

但这绝不是任何其他公司、在任何其他地方都能凭空召唤出来的。

But this is certainly not something where just any other company in any other place could come along and summon out of nowhere.

没错。

Right.

就连世界上最有成功的芯片制造商都这么困难，对吧？

And if it's this hard for the most successful maker of computer chips in the world Right.

那对其他人来说，会有多难呢？

How hard will it be dot dot dot for anybody else?

没错。

Correct.

而且这个信息已经传开了：在美国做生意非常艰难。

And that message is out there that The US is a tough place to do business.

在这里申请许可证很难。

It's a tough place to get permits.

在这里很难找到需要的人来做该做的事，而且你还得付给他们很高的薪酬。

It's a tough place to find people you need to do the stuff that needs to be done, and you're gonna have to pay them a lot

嗯。

Mhmm.

来做这件事。

To do it.

这不是给胆小者做的。

This is not for the faint of heart.

所以，如果我们想弄清楚这个项目是否会向全球的投资者和其他公司传递一个信号——嘿，美国欢迎投资。

So if we're trying to figure out whether this project is gonna send the signal to investors and other companies around the globe that, hey, The US is open for business.

来建一座工厂吧。

Come build a factory.

那将非常棒。

It's gonna be awesome.

这不是那个故事。

This is not that story.

这是一个说明可能性的故事。

This is a story that says, it's possible.

如果政府给你开了一张支票并提供管家式服务——就像台积电所获得的那样——那么一切或许就能顺利结合，使之成为可能。

And if the government writes you a check and gives you concierge service, which is what TSMC has gotten, then maybe everything comes together and makes it possible.

但这并不会让任何人相信在美国建厂会非常容易。

But this is not the thing that will convince anyone that it's gonna be really easy to build a factory in The United States.

如果你所在的行业并没有被强制要求在美国建厂，那么你很可能会参考这段经历，认为或许我们可以把下一个工厂建在别的地方。

If you're in an industry where you're not being forced essentially to build a plant in The United States, there's a good chance you'd look at this experience and say, maybe we'll find somewhere else to put our next factory.

彼得，非常感谢你。

Peter, thank you very much.

我们非常感激。

We appreciate it.

谢谢你，迈克尔。

Thank you, Michael.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是黛博拉·卡门。

I'm Deborah Kamen.

我是《纽约时报》的调查记者。

I'm an investigative reporter at The New York Times.

我的工作是关注房地产行业中的那些长期以来相对隐形的从业者。

What I do is I look at the people running the real estate industry who, for so many years, have been relatively invisible.

我越深入调查，就越发现房地产行业中有不少人行为不道德，而他们的不道德行为影响着每一位美国人。

And the more that I look into it, the more that I find there are people in the real estate industry operating unethically, and their unethical behavior affects every single American.

在《纽约时报》，我们总是深入挖掘，帮助读者更好地理解这个世界。

At The New York Times, we're always looking a little bit deeper to help readers better understand the world.

您可以在 nytimes.com/subscribe 订阅《纽约时报》。

You can subscribe to The New York Times at nytimes.com/ subscribe.

以下是今天您需要了解的其他内容。

Here's what else you need to know today.