巴勒斯坦建国问题

你好。

Hi.

我是来自《纽约时报》游戏的朱丽叶，今天来和粉丝们聊聊我们的游戏。

I'm Juliette from New York Times games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games.

你玩《纽约时报》的游戏。

You play New York Times games.

是的。

Yes.

每天玩。

Every day.

这里有个叫“好友”的小标签。

There's this little tab down here called friends.

所以你可以添加你的朋友。

So you could add your friend.

这对我来说还挺新的。

That feels new to me.

是的。

It is.

有社交元素真好。

It's nice to have the social aspect.

天啊。

Oh my god.

你还能看到他们所有人的成绩。

And you have all their times.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

对吧？

Right?

你可以查看拼字游戏、单词谜题和连线游戏。

You can look at spelling bee, Wordle, connections.

天啊。

Oh my god.

太棒了。

Amazing.

喜欢这个。

Love that.

我得下载这个应用。

I'll have to get the app.

《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户可全面访问我们所有的游戏和功能。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features.

现在前往 nytimes.com/games 订阅，享受特别优惠。

Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

来自《纽约时报》，我是蕾切尔·阿布拉姆斯，这里是《每日新闻》。

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.

自哈马斯于10月7日对以色列发动致命袭击以来，已将近两年，以色列也开始了对加沙的轰炸。

It's been nearly two years since Hamas carried out its deadly attacks on Israel on October 7, and Israel began its bombardment of Gaza.

自那以来，加沙的人道主义危机不断恶化，哈马斯仍扣押着人质。

Since then, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza has only worsened, and Hamas is still holding hostages.

但近年来，巴勒斯坦人遭受苦难的画面激起了国际社会对以色列施压，要求其结束战争，并推动西方国家承认巴勒斯坦国。

But the images of Palestinian suffering have lately fueled international pressure on Israel to end the war and pushed Western powers to recognize a Palestinian state.

上周，这一趋势在联合国达到顶峰，一群世界领导人正式承认巴勒斯坦国，进一步加剧了以色列的孤立。

This culminated last week at The United Nations, where a group of world leaders formally recognized Palestinian statehood, which deepened Israel's isolation.

但就在一周后，特朗普总统和以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡公布了一项新的和平计划，凸显了巴勒斯坦建国仍遥遥无期的现实。

But just a week later, a new peace plan unveiled by president Trump and Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu underscored the reality that Palestinian statehood is a long way off.

今天，我们来探讨这一时刻的乐观情绪与愤怒，以及这一承认究竟意味着什么。

Today, the optimism and the fury of this moment and what this recognition actually means.

今天是10月3日，星期五。

It's Friday, October 3.

Jess Chung，你是我们节目的制作人之一。

Jess Chung, you are one of the producers on our show.

上周，你亲自前往联合国，记录下这一历史性时刻，当时巴勒斯坦建国问题成为焦点。

And last week, you spent time on the ground at the UN to document this historic moment in which the question of Palestinian statehood was really front and center.

所以，跟我们说说，你当时去那里想捕捉些什么？

So talk to us a little bit about what you were there to capture.

过去两年里，国际社会对以色列在战争中的战术越来越感到沮丧。

Well, over the past two years, the international community has grown increasingly frustrated with Israel's tactics in the war.

最近，我们看到英国、法国、澳大利亚和加拿大等一些西方国家推动正式承认巴勒斯坦国，以此向以色列施压，促使其结束战争。

And what we've seen recently is a push by a number of Western countries like The UK, France, Australia, and Canada, to formally recognize the Palestinian state as a way to put pressure on Israel to end the war.

到目前为止，已有140多个国家完成了这一承认。

Now up until this point, over a 140 countries had already done this.

但这一新一批国家的有趣之处在于，它们传统上是以色列的盟友。

But what's interesting about this new group of countries is that they're traditionally Israeli allies.

这激怒了以色列和美国，他们认为这等于奖励哈马斯在10月7日的恐怖主义行为。

That infuriates Israel and The US, who say what this is gonna do is reward Hamas for its terrorism on October 7.

但无论如何，有10个国家计划上周前往联合国大会，首次站起来宣布承认巴勒斯坦国。

But regardless, 10 countries were planning to come to the UN General Assembly last week to stand up and say for the first time, we recognize the Palestinian state.

因此，这本将是一个重大时刻，而我想记录下这一瞬间。

So it was gonna be a huge moment, and I wanted to capture that.

尤其是通过一位名叫里亚德·曼苏尔的人的视角。

Particularly through the eyes of this one guy, Riyadh Mansour.

我们可以站起来。

We could stand.

很高兴见到你。

It was a pleasure to meet you.

很高兴见到你。

Pleasure to meet you.

大使。

Ambassador.

曼苏尔是巴勒斯坦驻联合国大使。

Mansour is the Palestinian ambassador to the UN.

他几乎一生都在为这一刻努力。

And he's worked toward this moment for pretty much his entire life.

我们目前位于联合国的玫瑰园。

We are in the rose garden here at the United Nations.

是的。

Yes.

我在这里有美好的回忆，因为

I have beautiful memories here because

我在曼哈顿中城的联合国花园里见过他。

I meet him in the gardens of the UN in Midtown Manhattan.

这一切都发生在重大会议召开之前。

This was all before the big meeting was set to take place.

他穿着一套西装。

He's dressed in a suit.

他的西装翻领上别着一面小小的巴勒斯坦国旗。

He's got a small Palestinian flag pinned on his lapel.

您担任这一职务有多久了？

And how long have you been serving in this role?

今年九月，整整二十年了。

In September, twenty years straight.

整整二十年。

Twenty years straight.

是的。

Yes.

曼苏尔七十多岁了，几十年来一直在这里代表巴勒斯坦人。

Mansour is in his late seventies, and he's been representing Palestinians here for decades.

不。

No.

对我来说，你知道，我很久以前就开始为这些事情努力了。

For me, you know, I was working for these things from long time ago.

现在这些国家都支持了，你感觉如何？

How does it feel to have these countries now on board?

感觉非常好。

It feels very great.

我们希望在接下来的几天里，国际社会能够发生转变，让巴勒斯坦国成为现实。

We hope from the few days to come that the international community is making a turn, a turn where now having the state of Palestine a reality.

因此，我们正朝着和平与正义的方向前进。

So we are marching in the direction of peace and justice.

非常感谢，我希望

Thank you so much, and I hope

在本周余下的时间里继续关注您。

to follow you throughout the week.

好的。

Okay.

非常好。

Very good.

你。

You.

好的。

Okay.

谢谢

Thank you

您。

so much.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

我们会保持联系。

We'll touch we'll touch base.

因为他一直

Because he's been

由于他在这里待了很久，蒙苏尔似乎成了这个地方的一个常驻人物。

here for so long, Monsoor seems to be a kind of fixture in this place.

他在这些建筑里匆匆穿梭，不停地参加各种新闻发布会，与无数人握手。

He scurries around these halls, doing a seemingly endless amount of press gaggles, Shaking a seemingly endless amount of hands.

她当时在那儿吗？

Was was she there?

不在。

No.

她在这边。

She's over here.

会见无数的外交官。

Meeting a seemingly endless amount of diplomats.

我的航班安排也很灵活。

I'm also flexible in flight.

但与他坐下来交谈后，我意识到联合国也早已成为他生命中的一部分。

But sitting down with him, I realized that the UN has long been a fixture in his life too.

我出生在巴勒斯坦，是一个巴勒斯坦难民家庭的孩子。

I was born in Palestine, a child of a Palestinian refugee family.

万苏尔在约旦河西岸的拉姆安拉度过了童年。

Wansour spent his childhood in Ramallah, in the West Bank.

在奥努瓦出现之前，我们住在山洞和山谷里。

And we lived in caves and in the valleys before Onurwa came to the picture.

他的家人是1948年以色列建国前后战争中被驱逐或逃离家园的数十万巴勒斯坦人之一，这一时期在巴勒斯坦人眼中被称为“纳克巴”。

His family was among the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were expelled or fled from their homes amid the wars surrounding the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, a period known to Palestinians as the Nakba.

开始给我们发笔。

Started giving us pens.

联合国为这些流离失所的巴勒斯坦家庭提供了食物、学校和医疗援助，包括蒙苏尔一家。

And the UN provided food, schools, and medical care to those displaced Palestinian families, including monsores.

你有没有早期的记忆，关于你是如何意识到巴勒斯坦人没有自己的国家的？

Do you have an early memory about how you understood that Palestinians didn't have a state of your own?

我并不清楚当时‘国家’这个概念具体意味着什么。

I don't know exactly what in those days, the idea of statehood was.

我们心中所想的是要回到我们的城镇、村庄和家园。

What was in our mind is we want to return to our towns, to our villages, to our homes.

比如，我们被驱逐出的巴勒斯坦小镇那所房子的钥匙，一直挂在屋子里。

Like, the key for our house in Palestine from the town where we were expelled from was hanging inside the house.

因此，这象征着我们终将回归。

So that's a symbol of returning to it.

在二十世纪五十年代，蒙苏尔的父亲移民到了美国。

In the nineteen fifties, Monsour's father immigrated to The US.

他在俄亥俄州扬斯敦当了一名钢铁工人。

He took a job as a steelworker in Youngstown, Ohio.

蒙苏尔大约17岁时跟随父亲来到这里。

Monsour was around 17 years old when he followed his father here.

他后来进入杨斯敦州立大学学习。

He went on to study at Youngstown State.

我受到了当时思潮的影响。

And I was influenced by the thoughts of the moment.

在整个大学期间，他积极参与政治活动，参加民权游行，反对越南战争，并目睹这些运动在他周围带来了切实的改变。

Throughout college, he was politically active, marching for civil rights, against the war in Vietnam, and seeing those movements create real change around him.

他开始发声反对以色列对约旦河西岸和加沙的占领，努力提高人们对巴勒斯坦权利的认识。

He started speaking out against Israel's occupation in the West Bank, in Gaza, trying to raise awareness of Palestinian rights.

这并不容易。

It wasn't easy.

这并不受欢迎。

It was not popular.

但我还年轻。

But I was young.

1974年，巴勒斯坦领导人亚西尔·阿拉法特首次受邀在联合国发表演讲，向国际社会呼吁建立巴勒斯坦国。

And then in 1974, Palestinian leader Yasur Arafat was invited to speak at the UN for the first time, where he made an appeal to the international community for a Palestinian state.

我当时是学生，所以带了三

I was a student, so I brought three

曼苏尔组织了三辆大巴，从俄亥俄州前往纽约参加这一活动。

Mansur organized three buses of people to drive from Ohio to New York for the event.

我是幸运儿之一，得以前往联合国，在他发表著名演讲后与阿拉法特主席握手。

And I was among the lucky ones to go to the United Nations to shake hand with chairman Arafat after he gave his famous speech.

那是我第一次进入联合国。

So that was the first time that I entered the UN.

巴勒斯坦人正在讨论建国以及这意味着什么。

Palestinians were talking about statehood and what it would mean.

这正是我们想要的吗？

Is this what we want?

是一个国家还是两个国家？

Is it one state, two state?

十年后，万苏尔在联合国找到了一份工作，继续为同一目标而努力。

And a decade later, Wansour would take a job at the UN and keep pushing for the same goal.

这段旅程历时漫长，经历了八十年代、九十年代，直到奥斯陆协议的签署。

And that journey took a long time, the eighties, the nineties, then the Oslo agreement.

多年来，曼苏尔经历了巴勒斯坦多次起义和激进主义的循环。

For years, Mansoor worked through cycles of Palestinian intifadas and militancy.

以色列的报复和定居点的不断扩张。

Israeli retaliation and expanding settlements.

新的战争、新的停火、新的和平协议，比如奥斯陆协议，被视为国际社会最接近解决冲突的时刻。

New wars, new ceasefires, new peace agreements, like the Oslo Accords, which were seen as the closest the international community came to resolving the conflict.

但最终，它们并未实现当初设定的目标。

But in the end, they didn't achieve what they set out to.

你看，我们经历了多个循环。

You see, we went through cycles.

希望升起，然后又跌落。

Hopes, then they go down.

10月7日之后，情况又是一样。

The same thing after October 7.

当哈马斯发动突袭，造成1200人死亡，并绑架了约250人。

When Hamas, in a surprise attack, killed 1,200 people and kidnapped about 250 others.

出现了基布兹被毁的照片，视频中人质被武装分子骑着摩托车或驾驶卡车带走。

Pictures emerge of the destroyed Khibudzim, videos of hostages being carried away on the backs of motorcycles, and trucks driven by militants.

有人们在家被枪杀、被困在燃烧建筑中的故事。

Stories of people shot in their homes and trapped in burning buildings.

这一切震惊了全世界。

All of it shocked the world.

在10月7日事件后的最初几天，人们对受害者家属表示同情。

There were sympathies in the first few days with the families of the victims as a result of October 7.

但当以色列对加沙的哈马斯发动战争，随着战争进入第二年，超过六万名巴勒斯坦人死亡，人道主义状况持续恶化，世界各地的人们也看到了这些画面、听到了这些故事，包括曼苏尔，他在今年春天向联合国安理会描述了他在加沙所目睹的一切。

But after Israel launched the war against Hamas in Gaza, as that war entered its second year with more than sixty thousand Palestinians dead and the humanitarian situation worsening, people around the world also saw those pictures and heard those stories, including Mansour, who described what he was seeing in Gaza to the United Nations Security Council this spring.

母亲们抱着孩子冰冷的身体，抚摸着他们的头发，跟他们说话，向他们道歉的影像。

The images of mothers embracing their motionless bodies cursing their hair, talking to them, apologizing to them.

我，总统先生。

Me, mister president.

就在那时，穆萨尔说他感觉到情况开始发生变化，我问他对此的看法。

It was around that time that Mounsour said he felt things begin to shift, and I asked him about that.

这引发了国际社会对巴勒斯坦人民的巨大支持、同情与团结。

It created a tremendous amount of support and empathy and solidarity with the Palestinian people.

如今，国际社会已经忍无可忍。

Now the international community, enough is enough.

我们不能再继续经历这种起起落落、循环往复。

We're not going to continue going through cycles up and down, up and down.

这一次，我们要终止这场战争，让两国方案成为现实。

This time, we're going to stop this war and allow the two state solution to become a reality.

现在就是关键时刻。

This is the moment.

今天，我站在联合国徽章之下，确认英国政府承认巴勒斯坦国的历史性决定。

I stand before you today, beneath the emblem of the United Nations, to confirm the historic decision of the British government to recognize the state of Palestine.

葡萄牙正式承认巴勒斯坦国。

Portugal formally recognized the state of Palestine.

两国方案。

A two state solution.

澳大利亚承认巴勒斯坦国。

Australia recognized the state of Palestine.

加拿大承认巴勒斯坦国。

Canada recognizes the state of Palestine.

比利时宣布承认

Belgium announces the recognition

巴勒斯坦国。

of the state of Palestine.

因此，爱尔兰去年与西班牙、挪威和斯洛文尼亚一起承认了巴勒斯坦国。

And that is why Ireland last year, with Spain, Norway, and Slovenia, recognized the state of Palestine.

对加沙的系统性毁灭。

The systematic decimation of Gaza.

将食物用作战争武器。

The use of food as a weapon of war.

儿童在边境食物腐烂时饿死。

Children dying of starvation while food rots at the border.

杀害了数万人。

The killing of tens of thousands

数以万计的

Tens of thousands of

加沙已有超过六万五千人被杀。

More than 65,000 people killed in Gaza.

其中大多数是妇女和儿童。

Most of them women and children.

令人震惊的是，其中超过两万名是儿童。

Horrifically, more than 20,000 of them children.

还有数百名我们自己的人道主义工作者。

And hundreds of our own humanitarians.

援助人员。

Aid workers.

援助人员被杀。

Aid workers killed.

记者。

Journalists.

记者被杀。

Journalists killed.

医生遭到针对性袭击并被杀害。

Doctors targeted and killed.

我们已经到达这样一个地步：世界目睹着被可信描述为种族灭绝的行为正在发生。

We have reached a point where what has been credibly described as a genocide is being carried out in front of the eyes of the world.

巴勒斯坦人民拥有不可剥夺的建国权利，而两国方案是以色列人和巴勒斯坦人实现安全与持久和平的唯一途径。

Statehood is the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, and the two states is the only path to security and lasting peace for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

以色列否认这些指控，并强烈驳斥种族灭绝的指控。

Israel denies many of these allegations and strongly refutes the accusation of genocide.

以色列代表团没有来参加会议。

The Israeli delegation didn't come to the meeting.

他们的座位空着。

Their seats stayed empty.

今天感觉太棒了。

Today felt so great.

我觉得我的眼泪不知不觉地流到了脸上

I think that my tears were coming down on my face without

但蒙苏尔被感动得落泪了。

But Monsoor was moved to tears.

这是历史性的一天。

It's a historic day.

我们正在攀登一座非常高的山，而且正接近山顶。

We are climbing a very tall mountain, and we are approaching the top of the mountain.

整周里，当我跟随蒙苏尔时，我不断问他，为什么这一刻感觉如此重要。

Throughout the week, while I was following Monsoor, I kept asking him why this moment felt so important.

毕竟，已有140多个国家承认了巴勒斯坦。

After all, over a 140 countries had already recognized Palestine.

那么，这一周在很大程度上只是一种象征性的举动吗？

So isn't this week largely a symbolic gesture?

他不断引用这个类比：南非的种族隔离制度。

He kept holding up this analogy, apartheid in South Africa.

他说，世界上许多国家几十年来也谴责种族隔离，但正是西方国家对南非施加的压力，才帮助终结了种族隔离。

He said much of the world also condemned apartheid for decades, but it was Western countries putting pressure on South Africa that helped end apartheid.

因此，曼苏尔认为，这一时刻是实现国家地位的转折点。

So Mansoor says he sees this moment as a turning point for statehood.

但这一时刻也引发了争议。

But this moment has also been controversial.

你如何回应那些认为这种承认是在为哈马斯的恐怖主义行为颁奖的人？

What do you say to those who see this recognition as rewarding Hamas for its terrorism?

我问曼苏尔，当他想到有些人将这种正式承认视为对10月7日暴行的奖赏时，他是怎么想的。

I asked Mansoor when he thought about the fact that some people view all this formal recognition as a reward to Hamas for the atrocities on October 7.

曼苏尔告诉我，他认为这种看法是错误的。

Mansoor told me he thinks that's the wrong way to look at it.

不仅我们，几乎所有的国家都不认同这种评估。

Not only us, but almost all the countries do not agree with that assessment.

没有人会相信法国、英国、加拿大、澳大利亚是在奖励哈马斯。

Nobody would believe that France, UK, Canada, Australia are rewarding Hamas.

这没有道理。

That doesn't make sense.

他们这样做都是为了投资和平与和谐。

All of them, they were doing it as an investment in peace and harmony.

曼苏尔表示，巴勒斯坦建国不是对攻击以色列的奖赏。

Mansour said Palestinian statehood is not a prize for attacking Israel.

他告诉我，这关乎巴勒斯坦人民拥有自己国家的合法权利。

He told me, it's about the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people to have a state of their own.

在接下来的几天里，这一点变得很清楚。

And that was made clear as the following days unfolded.

广告后，我的同事马克·兰德勒将探讨这一承认在没有以色列和美国支持的情况下意味着什么。

After the break, my colleague Mark Landler on what this recognition means without the support of Israel and The United States.

嘿。

Hey.

我是约翰·蔡斯。

It's John Chase.

还有玛丽·乌哈拉。

And Mari Uihara.

来自《纽约时报》旗下产品推荐服务 Wirecutter。

From Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times.

玛丽，现在是送礼时节，这意味着我完全没辙，需要帮忙。

Mari, it is gift giving time, which means I am hopeless and need help.

你不是一个人。

You're not alone.

约翰，我们有四十多个礼物指南，比如送给热爱美食的人的礼物。

John, we have over 40 gift guides, like gifts for people who love food.

我真的很喜欢清单上这个黄油加热器。

I really love this butter warmer on that list.

我甚至不知道这种东西还存在。

I didn't even know these existed.

这是一个可爱的搪瓷锅。

It's this cute enamelware pot.

如果你像我一样，微波炉里黄油总是爆开，你可以用它来融化黄油，但它还能用来做很多其他事情，比如热巧克力、温热汤品，而且放在炉子上也很漂亮。

If you're someone like me who explodes butter in your microwave, you can melt butter in it, but you can use it for a ton of other stuff, making hot chocolate, warming soup, and it looks great on the stovetop.

这不仅实用，而且很好看。

This is useful, but it's also good looking.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

给一个预算在50美元以下的人送什么礼物比较容易？

What's an easy gift for someone like under $50?

在我们的50美元以下礼物指南中，有一款超可爱的掌心大小的蓝牙音箱。

So in our gifts under 50 guide, we have this super cute palm sized Bluetooth speaker.

它有多种酷炫的颜色可选。

It comes in an array of cool colors.

它是防水的。

It's waterproof.

我想要一个放在我的花园里。

I'd want one for my garden.

太棒了。

Terrific.

要查看Wirecutter的所有节日礼物建议和推荐，请访问nytimes.com/holidayguide。

For all of Wirecutter's gift ideas and recommendations, head to nytimes.com/holidayguide.

马克，你几十年来一直报道以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突以及巴勒斯坦建国的斗争。

Mark, you have covered the story for decades, the Israel Palestinian conflict and the fight for Palestinian statehood.

是的。

Yes.

我有。

I have.

这正是我们转向你，希望你能帮助我们理解，不仅上周在联合国发生了什么，还有本周早些时候以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡访问白宫时发生的事——当时他站在特朗普总统身旁，而特朗普总统提出了这项旨在结束战争的新计划。

Which is why we're turning to you to help us understand what happened not just last week at the UN, but also earlier this week when Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited the White House where he stood next president Trump as president Trump presented this new plan to end the war.

我想从联合国说起，那里压倒性地支持巴勒斯坦建国，这让内塔尼亚胡非常愤怒。

I wanna start with the UN where the overwhelming support for Palestinian statehood infuriated Netanyahu.

你能为我们详细讲讲那天发生了什么吗？

Can you walk us through what happened that day?

大会将听取以色列国总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡先生的讲话。

The assembly will hear an address by his excellency Benjamin Netanyahu, prime minister of the state of Israel.

在这些国家站起来承认巴勒斯坦建国后，总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡作出了回应。

Well, after these countries stood up and recognized Palestinian statehood, prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave his response.

女士们，先生们。

Ladies and gentlemen.

他走上讲台，强烈反对这些承认巴勒斯坦的举措。

He took the dais and railed against these moves towards recognition.

本周，法国、英国、澳大利亚、加拿大及其他国家无条件承认了巴勒斯坦国。

This week, the leaders of France, Britain, Australia, Canada, and other countries unconditionally recognized a Palestinian state.

它们是在哈马斯于10月7日犯下暴行之后做出这一决定的。

They did so after the horrors committed by Hamas on October 7.

内塔尼亚胡的论点简而言之是，承认巴勒斯坦国是对哈马斯的奖励。

Netanyahu's argument, in short, is that recognizing Palestinian statehood is a reward for Hamas.

你知道本周承认巴勒斯坦国的领导人向巴勒斯坦人传递了什么信息吗？

You know what message the leaders who recognize the Palestinian state this week sent to the Palestinians?

这是一个非常明确的信息。

It's a very clear message.

杀害犹太人是有回报的。

Murdering Jews pays off.

西方本质上是在对哈马斯说：你们可以对以色列平民实施恐怖袭击，而为了追求和平，我们愿意给予你们这一象征性的让步。

That what the West is basically saying to Hamas is you can inflict terror on Israeli citizens, and in our desire for peace, we're going to be willing to give you this very symbolic concession.

巴勒斯坦人并不相信这一解决方案。

The Palestinians, they don't believe in this solution.

他们从来就没有。

They never have.

他们并不想要一个与以色列毗邻的国家。

They don't want a state next to Israel.

他们想要的是取代以色列的巴勒斯坦国。

They want a Palestinian state instead of Israel.

内塔尼亚胡的观点是，我们真正应该做的是全力支持以色列，彻底摧毁哈马斯，完全将其排除在外，全力支持以色列为营救人质而战，并支持其在加沙的军事行动，而不是走上他所认为的这条死胡同——承认巴勒斯坦国。

And Netanyahu's argument is what we should really be doing is supporting Israel in its effort to crush Hamas, to remove Hamas from the equation altogether, and to back Israel to the hilt, fighting for the return of the hostages and supporting its military campaign in Gaza rather than heading down what he views as this cul de sac of recognizing a Palestinian state.

我观看了内塔尼亚胡的演讲，令我印象深刻的是，当他在台上发言时，许多其他国家的代表竟然真的离场了。

I watched Netanyahu's speech, and I was really struck by how many representatives from other countries literally walked out of the hall as he took the stage.

然而，尽管如此，他讲话时仍充满 defiance，这充分表明，即使以色列在国际舞台上日益孤立，内塔尼亚胡依然固执己见，这一点在他在联合国的演讲中表现得非常明显。

And yet despite that, he still had this defiant tone as he talked, which I think really underscored the fact that Israel, even as it's become more and more isolated on the world stage, Netanyahu has continued to dig his heels in, and that was very evident during his speech at the UN.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这是对的，而且我认为他这么做是出于一个关键原因。

I think that's right, and I think he did it for one critical reason.

对于所有反对并批评以色列的国家，他知道有一个国家始终坚定地支持以色列，那就是美国，尤其是唐纳德·特朗普总统。

For all those countries that oppose Israel and are critical of Israel, he knows he has one country that is steadfastly behind Israel, and that's The United States and particularly President Donald Trump.

他明确反对承认巴勒斯坦国。

He came out against recognition of a Palestinian state.

他重复了内塔尼亚胡的观点，认为这无异于奖励恐怖主义，奖励哈马斯。

He echoed Netanyahu's argument that this would be a reward for terrorism, a reward for Hamas.

即便有部分民调显示，美国公众在这一问题上意见分歧严重，他仍如此表态。

He did so even as there is some polling that suggests that the American public is far more divided on this issue.

在经历了两年来自加沙的惨烈战争画面后，越来越多的美国人开始质疑对以色列无条件的支持，但总统本人除外。

After two years of harrowing images of of war from Gaza, more Americans are beginning to question unstinting support for the state of Israel, but not the president himself.

但只要特朗普继续支持内塔尼亚胡，继续在加沙的军事行动中为他撑腰，我认为内塔尼亚胡就觉得自己有充分的自由和许可去采取任何必要的强硬手段。

But as long as Trump continues to support Netanyahu, continues to stand behind him in his military campaign in Gaza, I think Netanyahu feels that he has the latitude and the license to be as aggressive as he needs to be.

显然，美国是以色列最强大的盟友。

Obviously, The US is Israel's strongest ally.

但在巴勒斯坦建国这一问题上——而这正是内塔尼亚胡如此愤怒的原因——为什么美国的立场如此重要？

But on the question of Palestinian statehood, which, of course, is what Netanyahu is so angry about, why does The US's position matter so much?

美国之所以如此重要，是因为它仍在联合国安理会拥有否决权。

Well, The US is so important because it still holds a veto in the United Nations Security Council.

因此，只要美国完全支持以色列，巴勒斯坦人所能取得的成就就有限。

So as long as The US is totally behind Israel, there is a limit to what the Palestinians can accomplish.

人们普遍认为，如果没有美国的支持，两国方案这一概念将彻底崩溃。

I think it's also widely understood that without US buy in, the whole notion of a two state solution really falls apart.

美国一直被视为解决以色列人和巴勒斯坦人和平问题的核心角色。

The US has always been viewed as the central player in the question of a peace settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

即使在过去几年中，这些国家逐渐转向承认巴勒斯坦，这一点也未曾改变。

That hasn't changed in the last few years even as these countries have moved toward recognizing Palestine.

因此，尽管这对巴勒斯坦人来说是一个非常积极的步骤，但如果没有美国的参与，其影响仍然有限。

So while it's a very positive step for the Palestinians, without The US joining in, it still has its limits.

这是非常重要的一天，美好的一天，可能是文明史上最为伟大的日子之一。

This is a big, big day, a beautiful day, potentially one of the great days ever in civilization.

就在上星期一，当特朗普总统欢迎内塔尼亚胡总理重返白宫时，你便看到了美国这一关键角色的体现。

And so you saw that critical American role on display just this past Monday when president Trump welcomed prime minister Netanyahu back to the White House.

所以今天是和平的历史性一天。

So today, is a historic day for peace.

内塔尼亚胡总理和我刚刚就许多重要议题，包括伊朗，举行了一次重要会议。

And prime minister Netanyahu and I have just concluded an important meeting on many vital issues including Iran.

他们走出来面对电视摄像机，提出了一项关于加沙的计划——特朗普的加沙战争终结计划。

They came out and faced the TV cameras and presented a plan for Gaza, a Trump plan to end the war in Gaza.

该提案要求立即释放所有剩余的人质，但无论如何不得超过72小时。

This proposal calls for the release of all remaining hostages immediately, but in no case, more than seventy two hours.

它要求哈马斯交出武器，立即释放人质。

It called on Hamas to give up their weapons, return the hostages immediately.

他们将不再参与加沙的治理。

They would have no future role in the governance of Gaza.

以色列将在加沙地带周边保持强大的军事存在。

Israel would remain a very strong military presence around the enclave.

因此，这实际上是一项非常亲以色列的加沙计划。

So really very much a pro Israel plan for Gaza.

这些条款中，哈马斯一直表示绝不会接受。

With terms that we should note Hamas has consistently said it would never accept.

当然。

Absolutely.

哈马斯已单方面否决了这些条款。

That Hamas has ruled out unilaterally.

不过，我们的报道显示，许多加沙民众希望哈马斯接受这项协议。

I should say though that our reporting shows many Gazans want Hamas to accept this deal.

尽管很多人认为哈马斯根本不可能接受。

Although a lot of people think it's a real long shot that Hamas ever would.

这个计划是否明确提到了建国问题？

And did this plan say anything explicitly about statehood?

它承认巴勒斯坦人民对建国的向往，并提出可以设想在若干条件之下建立一个巴勒斯坦国，包括对巴勒斯坦权力机构进行改革。

Well, it acknowledged that statehood was an aspiration of the Palestinian people, and it suggested that one could envision the creation of a Palestinian state subject to a number of conditions, including a reform of the Palestinian authority.

我认为，在我们等待签字以及等待相关国家批准的过程中，最好先不要回答问题。

I think while we're waiting for signatures and waiting for approvals from a lot of different countries that are involved in this, we probably shouldn't take questions.

但该计划对整个进程的时间表和路线图完全未作明确说明。

But it left the timeline and the road map for all of this completely unclear.

非常感谢大家。

Thank you very much, everybody.

谢谢。

Thank you.

有趣的是，该计划在出台后立即获得了阿拉伯国家和欧洲国家的广泛支持，而这些国家恰恰就在一周前正式承认了巴勒斯坦国。

Interestingly, the plan got in the immediate aftermath some pretty widespread support among the Arab countries, but also among European countries, the very countries who, a week earlier, had formally recognized a Palestinian state.

我们该如何解读这一点？

What do we make of that?

这些欧洲国家此前已表态支持巴勒斯坦建国，如今却支持一个明显偏向以色列的计划，这说明了什么？

The fact that all these European countries had come out in support of a Palestinian state and now are supporting a plan that seems to heavily favor Israel?

我认为，这实际上反映出欧洲和阿拉伯国家希望美国继续积极参与这一进程。

I think really what this shows you is the desire among European countries and Arab countries for The US to remain engaged in the process.

我认为，仅仅因为看到特朗普总统提出一项以他名字命名的计划，并愿意积极、公开地深度介入，就已让他们感到非常积极。

I think the mere fact that they saw president Trump stepping forward with a plan with his name on it, willing to be heavily engaged and visibly engaged for them was a huge positive.

我认为他们觉得，随着进程的推进，他们可以逐步解决这些细节，即使其中许多细节他们并不特别喜欢。

I think they feel that they can work out the details, many of which they may not particularly like as the process unfolds.

但至关重要的是，特朗普必须参与其中。

But what's vital is for Trump to be involved.

因此，他站在内塔尼亚胡身旁，表示愿意扮演这一角色的形象，值得他们的支持。

So the image of him standing next to Netanyahu saying he wants to play this role, that was worthy of their support.

这就是为什么我认为他获得了那样的支持表态。

And that's why I think he got the kind of show of support that he did.

这是因为通常华盛顿的民族主义者都会支持特朗普吗？

Is that because of usually the Washington Nationalist come to Trump?

就在他与特朗普总统会面后不久，内塔尼亚胡总理在对国内观众用希伯来语说：别担心。

And then immediately after his meeting with president Trump, prime minister Netanyahu speaking to a domestic audience said in Hebrew Don't worry.

这永远不会发生。

This is never gonna happen.

这感觉就像内塔尼亚胡在两面说辞。

It sort of feels like Netanyahu is kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth.

对吧？

Right?

因为一方面，他在记者会上提出了一项计划，表面上略微提及了实现国家地位的可能性，但前提是必须先满足15件极不可能发生的事情。

Because on the one hand, he gets up at this press conference, and he unveils this plan that gives a cursory nod to the possibility of statehood if, like, 15 unlikely things happen first.

而用希伯来语时，他基本上是在说：除非我死了。

And then in Hebrew, he's basically saying, over my dead body.

到目前为止，无论他想做什么，美国都基本支持他，尽管越来越多的国家表示支持巴勒斯坦建国。

And whatever he wants to do, thus far, he's basically had the backing of The United States even as there's been this growing list of countries that say they support Palestinian statehood.

所以我想知道，在你看来，这一切对巴勒斯坦建国的前景意味着什么？

And so I wonder where does all of this leave the prospect of a Palestinian state in your mind?

你说得对，内塔尼亚胡确实是两面派，事实上，多年来他在这一问题上一直如此。

Well, you're right to say that Netanyahu was talking out of both sides of his mouth, and one could could say, in fact, he's been doing that for many years on this topic.

如果回溯历史，曾有一段时间内塔尼亚胡声称支持两国方案，许多主流以色列领导人也是如此。

If you go back in time, there was a moment when Netanyahu claimed he supported a two state solution, as did a lot of mainstream Israeli leaders.

但必须指出的是，纵观内塔尼亚胡这些年的所作所为，他实际上始终在破坏巴勒斯坦建国的可能性，无论是扩大约旦河西岸的犹太人定居点，还是与哈马斯在加沙的治理上勾结，这都导致了巴勒斯坦运动的分裂。

Though it must be said that if you look at Netanyahu's actions over the years, he's really consistently undermined the prospect for a Palestinian state, whether it is expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank or colluding with Hamas in the governance of Gaza, which had the effect of splitting the Palestinian movement in two.

他的行动从未旨在允许或促进巴勒斯坦国的建立。

His actions have never been geared toward allowing or encouraging the creation of a Palestinian state.

现在在某些方面，他变得更加坦率了。

Now in some senses, he's being clearer.

他公开表示，目前他认为巴勒斯坦国是对以色列安全的严重威胁，但他又不愿完全违抗美国总统，尤其是唐纳德·特朗普，当后者在加沙计划中加入这种模棱两可的措辞时。

He's saying quite publicly that at the moment, he thinks a Palestinian state is a dire threat to Israel's security, but he's not willing to completely defy an American president, especially Donald Trump, when he includes this fairly wishy washy language in his plan for Gaza.

因此，我认为从内塔尼亚胡的角度来看，他觉得这不过是必须接受的事实。

So I think from Netanyahu's point of view, he sees this as something he's simply going to have to live with.

也许他还确信哈马斯无论如何都不会接受。

And perhaps he's also confident that Hamas will never accept it anyway.

所以，他根本不必被迫接受该计划中的任何内容。

So he won't be forced to live with anything that's in this plan anyway.

马克，我们的同事杰斯早些时候采访了巴勒斯坦驻联合国大使里亚德·曼苏尔。

Mark, our colleague Jess earlier spoke to Riyadh Mansour, the Palestinian ambassador to the UN.

他对于巴勒斯坦国真正实现的可能性显得非常乐观。

And he sounded so optimistic about the real possibility of a Palestinian state.

我在想，听了你所描述的一切，你觉得这种乐观情绪是否有些 misplaced？

And I wonder, just listening to everything that you've outlined, do you think that that optimism is misplaced?

好吧，里亚德·曼苏尔是从他作为外交官的独特视角来看待这个问题的，他多年来，甚至几十年来，一直在游说各国承认巴勒斯坦国。

Well, Riyadh Mansour is looking at this from his particular vantage point as a diplomat who has spent years, if not decades, lobbying countries to recognize a Palestinian state.

在这方面，他和他们的努力取得了显著的成功。

And in that, he and they have been remarkably successful.

如今，已有大约150个国家承认了巴勒斯坦国，其中包括世界上一些最重要、最有影响力的国家。

You now have a 150 some countries that recognize a Palestinian state, and they include some of the most important and powerful countries in the world.

因此，从这个角度来看，巴勒斯坦人已经取得了非凡的成功。

So from that point of view, the Palestinians have been remarkably successful.

但在建设国家的实际层面，我认为情况却截然不同。

But in the nuts and bolts sense of building a state, I think it's a much different story.

在加沙，你看到的是战争状态，一个几乎沦为废墟的飞地，加沙卫生部门估计死亡人数已超过六万五千人。

You have in Gaza a state of war and an enclave that's largely in ruins where Gaza health officials put the death toll at more than sixty five thousand.

在约旦河西岸，你看到的是一片被以色列分割成不断扩张的犹太人定居点的领土。

In the West Bank, you have a territory that's been carved up by the Israelis into an ever expanding set of Jewish settlements.

你有一个巴勒斯坦权力机构，其控制力和可信度都受到质疑。

You have a Palestinian authority whose control and credibility is in question.

因此，从一个可行且运转良好的国家角度来看，我认为巴勒斯坦人比以往任何时候都更远离这一目标。

So from the point of view of a viable and functioning state, I think the Palestinians are further away from that than they've been for a very long time.

马克，非常感谢你。

Mark, thank you so much.

谢谢，蕾切尔。

Thanks, Rachel.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

以下是今天你需要了解的其他内容。

Here's what else you need to know today.

周四，一名男子在英国曼彻斯特的一座犹太教堂外驾车冲撞人群并持刀行凶。

A man rammed a car into a crowd and stabbed people outside of a synagogue in Manchester, England on Thursday.

警方称这是一起恐怖袭击事件，造成两人死亡，另有三人重伤。

Two people were killed, and three others were seriously injured in what police called an act of terrorism.

事件发生在犹太历中最神圣的日子——赎罪日。

It happened on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar.

警方表示，袭击者刚一动手，警察就在几分钟内开枪将其击毙。

Police said officers shot and killed the suspect only minutes after he began his assault.

这是一起严重的事件，我必须这么说。

It is a serious incident, I have to to say.

大曼彻斯特市长安迪·伯纳姆呼吁人们避开袭击发生的区域。

The mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, told people to avoid the area where the attack had happened.

但与此同时，我可以立即向公众保证，当前的危险似乎已经解除，大曼彻斯特警方反应迅速，已妥善处理此事。

But at the same time, I can give some reassurance immediately to people, that the immediate danger appears to be over, and Greater Manchester Police have dealt with it very quickly.

英国反恐警察确认，袭击者是一名具有叙利亚血统的英国公民。

The attacker was identified by Britain's counterterrorism police as a British citizen of Syrian descent.

警方表示，调查人员仍在努力查明此次袭击的动机。

Police said investigators were still working to understand the motive behind the attack.

周五，官员们表示，一名受害者是被赶往现场的警员误杀的。

And on Friday, officials said that one of the victims had been accidentally shot and killed by an officer who responded to the scene.